Garland PD shooting

[Dagga Boy]

Opened a new thread for LE only questions and discussions. Please limit this to training and learning issues only for LE, otherwise, use the Romper room thread.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Looking forward to this. I'd love to read an AAR when one becomes available.

[Gadfly]

Initial report I heard is shots exchanged at 15-20 yards. Bad guys fired first. Officer engaged with Glock 21, scoring one head shot and one spinal shot. No word on total fired. Responding swat shot spinal guy some more when he decided to reach for his backpack...

That is TV/Radio news, so the info may change. Sounds plausible though...

[Chuck Haggard]

I'm thinking reports of body armor on the bad guys was incorrect

[Dagga Boy]

Initial report I heard is shots exchanged at 15-20 yards. Bad guys fired first. Officer engaged with Glock 21, scoring one head shot and one spinal shot. No word on total fired. Responding swat shot spinal guy some more when he decided to reach for his backpack...

That is TV/Radio news, so the info may change. Sounds plausible though...

Much of media stuff regarding technical aspects will likely not be correct and is interpretations of what they are being told by other folks who are often not up on the technical aspects. Do not believe a thing until an autopsy comes out. I have also had to correct coroners with incorrect findings in the past on officer involved shootings.

It will be quite awhile till anything worthwhile is released. I have already had the conversation with the right people there about how important a well written and heavily documented AAR that is classified for LE use to be assembled on this incident as there will be a ton of training value in it.

[Gadfly]

I take that info I shared with a grain of salt. I know the media often get things wrong. CNN did an animation to illustrate the fight, and the showed the police officers with MP5s...

Just thought I would share the only info I had seen.

I also agree with Chuck on the body armor. When someone wears a cheap condor vest or paintball vest, the media assumes its body armor, not the mall Ninja Load Bearing Vest it actually is. While it is possible the bad guys had armor, I think it's more likely a simple vest.

Again, just speculation on my part.

Looking forward to a real incident report.

[Chuck Haggard]

I will note that my past observation of the efficacy of service caliber pistols loaded with service grade ammo, vs carrying pocket guns as a primary when one can carry a bigger gun, plays out in this case.

Note also, bad guys may wear gear if they are rolling in heavy, gear that our bullets often have to get through.

[SJC3081]

I'm thinking reports of body armor on the bad guys was incorrect

I'm guessing the same thing, if not I suspect the terminating Officer was carrying a Colt Commando and not a G21.

[LittleLebowski]

I'm thinking reports of body armor on the bad guys was incorrect

I'm betting that it was LBVs of some sort.

[Chuck Haggard]

I'm betting that it was LBVs of some sort.

Yup

[Wayne Dobbs]

Darryl and I have a bit of inside view on this due to proximity and some "relationships".

What is very clear is something I was witness to and participant in that started back about 1991. The Garland PD instituted a monster shift in firearms training for their officers then, under the tutelage of Officer Thomas J. "TJ" Pilling. TJ, already a veteran officer with at least two shootings (including a stellar full auto "treatment" of a barricaded asshole), received some intensive instructor training from Mid-South and other locales. He came back and began an intensively fundamental approach to shooting pistols and shotguns. Sighted fire, proper trigger management and tight targets ruled the day. Shot accountability was top priority as was the development of proper mindset by the officers. The department funded 3-5 days of intensive training or retraining for every officer and their entry level training (GPD runs their own, very difficult academy) was INTENSE. Officers could shoot every week and ammo was laid in for that purpose. I recall that the SWAT Commander from the other day was out there EVERY Monday morning at 0700 working his ass off with his G-22 and/or shotgun. Many others did the same thing. The officer who performed so well the other day was one of the first recipients of the cultural shift in training there.

GPD is a very busy department and serves a population of 235,000. The city is a blue collar type place and is well populated with folks who just don't care. Those of us who understand that know that will lead to lots of uses of force, and it does in Garland. Consequently, there have been dozens of OIS incidents there over the years. The new program showed instant success with hit rates per rounds fired consistently above 90% and dead bad guy rates in those shootings well above 90% also. During this time, GPD had two officers shot and killed and several more wounded by offenders, but the ratios were tilted way in the correct direction. Most of the fights were typical close distance incidents, but there have been at least two successful pistol uses at ~35 and 50 yards by patrol officers in night time shootings. Dead turds on both incidents, by the way.

Their SWAT team is the very last team in Texas that should ever be taken on by anybody. They are cohesive, well led, unbelievably well trained and well equipped. They have dispatched many offenders and in a rather black humor term, always seem to kill somebody richly deserving of same at Christmas! I've watched their Commander since he was a pup and helped raise him a bit due to our departments' shared facilities at the time. He is somebody I'd trust with my family today and is a double armor save on a SWAT shooting (helmet and vest hits). He is a conspicuously devout Christian and family man. I can't say enough good about his character or his abilities.

All of this success the other day comes back to a couple of things. First, pick good folks and then train and develop them on a continuing basis. Equip them and empower them to go and handle problems. Train them more and lead them well. Train them some more and then sit back and be not surprised at the results, but simply gratified. It works and we know that it does. TJ and I talked the other night and while he wouldn't seek the credit, I gave it to him, because he was the agent of change of attitude, culture and competence in that place. Sometimes we wonder if what we do as trainers and leaders really matters. We get frustrated with apathy, mediocrity, ignorance and stupidity. And then, something like this happens to lift us up. It's been happening very well at GPD for literally decades, but this one let the world know what all that hard work was for.

[jkm]

http://bearingarms.com/pushed-forward-brave-garland-police-officer-advanced-brought-garland-terrorists/

[Chuck Haggard]

Thanks for taking the time to type that up Wayne.

[Dagga Boy]

Unfortunately the lesson of a couple decades of hard work paying off with a dedication to solid firearms training well above "minimum standards" won the day, is going to be lost. The lesson for a bunch will be the wrong assumption that having qualification courses geared towards the bottom 10% performers being able to "pass" is all that is needed to deal with a terrorist attack.

[Paul]

Garland PD has a reputation around the Metroplex for being for being the kick ass and takes names police agency, backing the it's officers and not being politically correct. The agency is not held in high regard by the media and some more PC agencies (and it's rumored that they are on the DOJ naughty list). Garland has resisted pressure to turn it officers into secretaries with guns, and it's paid off handsomely. I'm not surprised by the outcome.

[TGS]

Unfortunately the lesson of a couple decades of hard work paying off with a dedication to solid firearms training well above "minimum standards" won the day, is going to be lost. The lesson for a bunch will be the wrong assumption that having qualification courses geared towards the bottom 10% performers being able to "pass" is all that is needed to deal with a terrorist attack.

Unfortunately, this is likely the case. The offenders were dispatched cleanly, quickly and efficiently. There isn't much of a circus revolving around any dramatic failure, like the North Hollywood shootout or Miami 1986. It's a perfect example of what should have happened, and like everything right that cops (or anyone) perform it will be under-reported and forgotten about.

Darryl or Wayne,

Would you guys be able to share their courses of fire? You mentioned tight targets and high accuracy standards ruled the day.....I'm just interested on what they actually are. It'd be awesome if you could.

[Ptrlcop]

Has anyone done testing of service pistols shoot through say an AR or AK mag, 1000d cordura, or other common chest rig materials? I'm just curious as shooting through a chest rig seems to be a possibility.

[Chuck Haggard]

Has anyone done testing of service pistols shoot through say an AR or AK mag, 1000d cordura, or other common chest rig materials? I'm just curious as shooting through a chest rig seems to be a possibility.

Yes, and working on a YouTube of this.

This is another reason why I like +P 9mms

[psalms144.1]

I'm waiting with baited breath to get a no kitten AAR from this. I've seen photos of the scene that look DISTINCTLY like at least one set of blood soaked soft body armor panels on the ground behind the car - so might have been more to it than just an LBV?

And, pistol skills aside, mental preparation and toughness were key here - under fire from two armored BGs with AKs and the officer took it to them. You don't develop that warrior mindset and "battle drill" response to a threat hitting the square range twice a year for 50-60 rounds...

[Malamute]

I'm waiting with baited breath to get a no kitten AAR from this. I've seen photos of the scene that look DISTINCTLY like at least one set of blood soaked soft body armor panels on the ground behind the car - so might have been more to it than just an LBV?

And, pistol skills aside, mental preparation and toughness were key here - under fire from two armored BGs with AKs and the officer took it to them. You don't develop that warrior mindset and "battle drill" response to a threat hitting the square range twice a year for 50-60 rounds...

From the pictures of the scene, it looks like one is a Kel-tec pistol caliber carbine, the other may be some sort of AR-ish type gun, which could also be a 22 from what little we know.

The point is still valid though, dealing with two people shooting at the officer is serious business.

[Dagga Boy]

From the pictures of the scene, it looks like one is a Kel-tec pistol caliber carbine, the other may be some sort of AR-ish type gun, which could also be a 22 from what little we know.

The point is still valid though, dealing with two people shooting at the officer is serious business.

I would Ignore evidence stuff and conjecture about its relevance without context at this point.

[Paladin]

I'm not LE or a squared away guy just an average Joe citizen but I wanted to say thank you to Wayne and DB for the training they provide. Because of said training and the drills given to pratice and believe you me I am practicing 1 to 2 times a week now I know God forbid if I'm ever in a position to have to use my gun for self defense of myself or a loved one the outcome will be significantly better than before i met the both of those great gentlemen. I read your post and Wayne and wanted you to know yours and DB's training mattered in this mans life and I can't wait to learn more.
Rick

[Dagga Boy]

Trust me, we are just passing on what was given to us from hose that came before us. So much of this was very hard earned with a lot of time testing in a very tough world on the street, and then committing career suicide within your agency to make significant changes. Glad it is working for you.

[Hambo]

Unfortunately the lesson of a couple decades of hard work paying off with a dedication to solid firearms training well above "minimum standards" won the day, is going to be lost. The lesson for a bunch will be the wrong assumption that having qualification courses geared towards the bottom 10% performers being able to "pass" is all that is needed to deal with a terrorist attack.

Roger that. I know that the Garland attack was about the venue, but the BGs chose poorly. I don't necessarily believe the two dead BGs could have done better with quality Somali training (if there is such a thing), but I could see them being more successful in city's whose PDs have low standards for hiring and training. In the current environment those PDs will not be enhancing their firearms training because they won't even notice this incident.

[GardoneVT]

In my totally inexperienced opinion, small town America isn't the big problem. The few interactions I've have with small town LEO they seem to be more on the ball than HUGE metro areas.

If I were a ragamuffin out to start mortal trouble, i'd sooner do it in Chicago then rural South Dakota.Small town agencies dont have bloat and admin BS clogging the works.

[KevinB]

If I were a ragamuffin out to start mortal trouble, i'd sooner do it in Chicago then rural South Dakota.Small town agencies dont have bloat and admin BS clogging the works.

Look at what happened in LA with Donner went wackjob. Tied up major parts of the state, and significant resources to get 1 guy.

Everything is regional. This one was only a win due to the officer there. Folks in the "this will never happen here" mode, need to think, this was Texas, while the venue was a tad hot, it was Texas, mind you Ft Hood is in Texas, so maybe whack-job Muslims like going to Texas?

Think about how this could have gone somewhere else, who did not have immediate LE response from a focused and trained officer...

[cpd2110]

Wayne, I pm'd you.

[Chance]

Can anyone link me to a decent run down of the event? I know it's still very early in the investigation, but I'm curious about things like: on what side of the structure did they pull up on, were they driving aggressively, what was their first overtly hostile action, et cetera?


Folks in the "this will never happen here" mode, need to think, this was Texas, while the venue was a tad hot, it was Texas, mind you Ft Hood is in Texas, so maybe whack-job Muslims like going to Texas?

We've grown more than a few whack jobs here locally, unfortunately.

[41magfan]

I'll readily admit there is some educating guessing to be done, but you really can't make any meaningful predictions about the next active shooting or how it might be handled.

We had a nut job in my state shoot up a nursing home; killed 8 and wounded 1 other person before being engaged by the small town's ONLY law enforcement officer.

The little town has a population of just over 2,000 and is over an hours drive from a city of any size. He was armed with a 12 ga pump, a .357 revolver and a .22 Magnum pistol. Motive? He was pissed at his wife and he went looking for her there at her place of employment.

One guy was shot in the parking lot, and the others were residents along with one Nurse. On a scale of predictability, this place would probably be near the bottom.

[Dagga Boy]

Opened a new thread for LE only questions and discussions. Please limit this to training and learning issues only for LE, otherwise, use the Romper room thread.

I guess nobody read this...request this thread be closed.

[MDS]

I guess nobody read this...request this thread be closed.

Done. Sorry if I contributed to the thread drift... :(

[Dagga Boy]

Can anyone link me to a decent run down of the event? I know it's still very early in the investigation, but I'm curious about things like: on what side of the structure did they pull up on, were they driving aggressively, what was their first overtly hostile action, et cetera?



We've grown more than a few whack jobs here locally, unfortunately.

No. This I s still a very much active investigation. We are learning stuff daily and even initial information has changed. At some point a solid LE training AAR will be done as there is a ton of very good learning lessons in this case, but it will likely be a LE only document.

[JHC]

I moved the off-topic stuff to new thread (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?15972) in the RR and reopened this thread.

Let's keep this thread on topic please.

Well done! I have nothing more to add except my Forsyth County Sheriff's Dept seem like the types that would study this for lessons.

[Chance]

I'm thinking reports of body armor on the bad guys was incorrect

Are there any numbers on how often body armor is actually used in crimes? The media is going to see anything vaguely vest-like and assume it's body armor. It rarely is, but it seems as if James Holmes did have actual armor (http://weaponsman.com/?p=22370), and I'm sure there are other examples.

Also, thoughts on immediately transitioning to the head if you observe something that's potentially armor, versus shooting a failure drill? I've seen knowledgeable people suggest (my rough synopsis) to always shoot the body first, because it's faster and takes away their stable platform to shoot you at you.

[Gadfly]

Some media photos. We see what looks like actual body armor, not LBV. And that sure looks like a KelTec sub 2k to me.

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/07/85facd3d7652b3e0adeb5eb79b71266f.jpghttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/07/094455d76fcff2e0012ae045ca6b1594.jpghttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/07/efbd0ffcf718b193c7d311577c672949.jpghttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/07/20c5232a7c21be25134d780671d80c98.jpg


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[Eyesquared]

On the other hand, it may not be anything like the NIJ IIIa armor most of us picture when we hear "body armor." Those panels could easily be something from a stab vest, or a el cheapo surplus flak vest, and may have had effectively no ballistic protection. Hard to say just from photos.

Edit: Sorry if that's thread drifty. I suppose this just goes to show the importance of making good hits, fast enough to win.

[Paul D]

The shooters are from Phoenix. I know the area they shared an apartment together and the type of financial problems they had. They probably didn't have a whole lot of resources for weapons and armor. So Kel-tecs and surplus or sportsman guide vests seem reasonable .

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[Dagga Boy]

Again, evidence out of context is useless from any kind of training value for law enforcement. What is the training value for law enforcement of the financial status of of the terrorists? Do any of you know the context of the Kel tec, and how it factored into the incident?

How about we start a total speculation about Garland thread in the Romper Room and it can be discussed with everyone's feelings about it.