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Le Français
05-05-2015, 12:10 AM
I'd like to know your thoughts on searching a structure with a drawn weapon when no specific threat is known to be present.

Recently, I heard that an LE academy instructor in my state taught a class of cadets that when searching a building after finding signs of forced entry, they should not have guns drawn because they couldn't articulate a specific deadly threat.

My thought is that searching a building in such a situation puts the officer at significant risk of ambush by someone who can reasonably be assumed to be an armed (at least with tools) felon. In my estimation, this is reason enough to have the gun drawn during the search (this doesn't mean the gun should be pointed every which way, of course).

Chuck Haggard
05-05-2015, 01:43 AM
I'd like to know your thoughts on searching a structure with a drawn weapon when no specific threat is known to be present.

Recently, I heard that an LE academy instructor in my state taught a class of cadets that when searching a building after finding signs of forced entry, they should not have guns drawn because they couldn't articulate a specific deadly threat.

My thought is that searching a building in such a situation puts the officer at significant risk of ambush by someone who can reasonably be assumed to be an armed (at least with tools) felon. In my estimation, this is reason enough to have the gun drawn during the search (this doesn't mean the gun should be pointed every which way, of course).

I concur. You have a potential felony in progress, and potential for close range ambush. That instructor is an idiot.

jondoe297
05-05-2015, 10:42 AM
I concur. You have a potential felony in progress, and potential for close range ambush. That instructor is an idiot.

Seconded.

MD7305
05-05-2015, 10:51 AM
Yep, third-ed. It's an unknown threat essentially.

BehindBlueI's
05-05-2015, 10:52 AM
Seconded.

Thirded.

Dang it, too slow. Forthed.

41magfan
05-05-2015, 11:19 AM
I was always of the opinion that "articulating a specific deadly threat" was a principle better applied to pulling the trigger than pulling the gun. But, that's just me.

Chuck Haggard
05-05-2015, 11:25 AM
I was always of the opinion that "articulating a specific deadly threat" was a principle better applied to pulling the trigger than pulling the gun. But, that's just me.

Concur. Instructor dude is reaching. I am going to also profile stupid human behavior and guess he has little to zero street experience.

Le Français
05-05-2015, 11:32 AM
Thanks for the responses.

Concur. Instructor dude is reaching. I am going to also profile stupid human behavior and guess he has little to zero street experience.
The place where he works is known for being busy and violent, but I don't know what his experience has been.

Chuck Haggard
05-05-2015, 11:35 AM
Thanks for the responses.

The place where he works is known for being busy and violent, but I don't know what his experience has been.

A lot of people in such places find a way to hide from the action. Jim Cirillo noted that ref many NYPD range instructors when he was on the job, just as one example

Trooper224
05-05-2015, 12:10 PM
I'd like to search a building with that instructor. He can go first and keep his gun holstered. Let's see how that works out.

Dagga Boy
05-05-2015, 01:03 PM
This is very normal police activity. It is why learning to work from good ready positions is SO critical for LEO's. One of the big "negatives" I have heard about both he low ready and Harries Flashlight technique is that they are mainly "searching techniques". Yep, got to find it before you can deal with it. Relaxed variants of both techniques, especially prior to widespread use of weapon mounted lights is critical to master when you spend a large amount of time doing building and field searches. Heck, I used a shotgun a lot for many high risk searches.

Paul
05-05-2015, 07:19 PM
The recruits should ask the instructor "if there's no specific deadly threat in the building, why are we bothering to search it in the first place?" Better yet why are the police risking a violent confrontation over "just" a property crime?

41magfan
05-05-2015, 07:26 PM
After reading the original post again, it occurred to me that perhaps the agency being represented by the Instructor has an SOP on the matter that may be more restrictive than the law and sound operational tactics would allow. I've heard of a lot worse, believe me.

One of the agencies that I worked for had an SOP that paper documentation had to be completed anytime you pointed a gun at anyone. I always used this silly thing called the "Guard" as a ready position, so I seldom had to do that paperwork ...... even though my gun was unlimbered quite often.

Coyotesfan97
05-05-2015, 08:00 PM
If that was the case I couldn't justify putting my K9 into a building.

He sounds like the guys I've seen searching with a Taser out. They got corrected swiftly!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Gadfly
05-05-2015, 08:37 PM
This type of policy sounds great to a city council drone sitting in an air conditioned office with armed guards at the main entrance.

If you are the guy doing the search at 0430, the policy is not quite as appealing...

I pulled/pointed my gun a lot back in the day. You can always put your gun away later if there is no threat.

Chuck Haggard
05-05-2015, 08:54 PM
I know of jobs that required a report if the pistol left the holster, so cops in that area would do silly assed shit like search buildings with the gun holstered.

My job did in fact require a report if a gun was pointed at someone, because that is in fact legally speaking a use of force. I didn't have any issues with that policy since IMHO cops point guns at way too many people they have no business pointing guns at. The flip side is that I think they don't shoot half of the bad guys that they really should be shooting.

Glenn E. Meyer
05-05-2015, 09:03 PM
Not being in this game, I might comment:

1. Was the trainer worried about an accidental discharge? This recently happened in NYC. Was that the real issue?
2. Pulling the gun must be reported - what about those new gadgets that send in a report that the gun was drawn? Is that a factor?

Just asking?

BehindBlueI's
05-05-2015, 10:34 PM
Not being in this game, I might comment:

1. Was the trainer worried about an accidental discharge? This recently happened in NYC. Was that the real issue?
2. Pulling the gun must be reported - what about those new gadgets that send in a report that the gun was drawn? Is that a factor?

Just asking?

An AD is always a possibility, as humans are fallible. However if you're doing it properly you aren't muzzling anything and other than embarrassment and property damage you're PROBABLY be ok. If you run into someone intent to do you harm, though, having the gun out and at the low ready gives you better odds than having it locked in the holster.

The weapon mounted lights were a God send when we first got them. I did come real close to shooting myself in a mirror, once. Searching a very large house, I opened a door and there was some guy with a light and a gun pointed at me! I was moving for the trigger when I saw the reflection of the bald head and a hint of the badge. Yes, only my lack of hair kept me from having a very embarrassing story to tell. :D

LSP552
05-05-2015, 11:18 PM
I know of jobs that required a report if the pistol left the holster, so cops in that area would do silly assed shit like search buildings with the gun holstered.

My job did in fact require a report if a gun was pointed at someone, because that is in fact legally speaking a use of force. I didn't have any issues with that policy since IMHO cops point guns at way too many people they have no business pointing guns at. The flip side is that I think they don't shoot half of the bad guys that they really should be shooting.

This!

And searching a building with holstered weapon is just stupid.

Chuck Haggard
05-05-2015, 11:21 PM
More IMHO; weapon mounted lights are not search tools, they actually suck for that job, if you are doing it right.

Yes, I'm dead serious.

BehindBlueI's
05-06-2015, 07:16 AM
More IMHO; weapon mounted lights are not search tools, they actually suck for that job, if you are doing it right.

Yes, I'm dead serious.

I've done it both ways many, many times. A weapon mounted light, especially on a long gun, seems to be the way to go when confronted with a door knob. YMMV.

Chuck Haggard
05-06-2015, 07:34 AM
I've done it both ways many, many times. A weapon mounted light, especially on a long gun, seems to be the way to go when confronted with a door knob. YMMV.

How much have you pressure tested that in FoF?

Dagga Boy
05-06-2015, 10:20 AM
More IMHO; weapon mounted lights are not search tools, they actually suck for that job, if you are doing it right.

Yes, I'm dead serious.

Yep. We need a like button. The weapon mounted lights are great once you find the bad guy or during actual engagement. For actually finding bad folks, I want the light free from my body.

Glenn E. Meyer
05-06-2015, 10:32 AM
Amusing aside
I did come real close to shooting myself in a mirror, once. Searching a very large house, I opened a door and there was some guy with a light and a gun pointed at me! I was moving for the trigger when I saw the reflection of the bald head and a hint of the badge.

In class, I show a clip of a man with prosopagnosia (can't recognize faces). He recalls how he goes down a long hallway and faces a guy. He says "Excuse me" and tries to go around. The guy steps right in front. He goes the other way - dude goes the other way. He says (in the sweetest Southern drawl) - Welll, Aaaaaah I was goin' to have to hit him".
Then I realized it was a mirror and it was ME - who I couldn't recognize".

KevinB
05-06-2015, 11:07 AM
Weapon mounted lights are awesome tools - and great tools for doing stuff in teams - like on SWAT. However they are not a good search tool as Chuck and Nyeti have pointed out, when a patrol guy, or in non flood sized groups.

Use of light and low light searching is one of the most misunderstood concepts out there. Without FoF and a very realistic training area it is hard to see how badly most people use light.


Best guys to teach this are folks who have long times on night patrol (and care).

BehindBlueI's
05-06-2015, 05:26 PM
How much have you pressure tested that in FoF?

Basically none. Our Simunitions ARs don't have rails or lights.

Chuck Haggard
05-06-2015, 07:02 PM
Basically none. Our Simunitions ARs don't have rails or lights.

Not trying to be a dick, Socratic question time; Would you search a building with a headlamp on your head as your lighting tool?


BTW, I did hundreds of high risk warrants with a SureFire 6P 100mph taped to the front end of a CAR15. Rails are the store bought solution.

Dagga Boy
05-06-2015, 07:49 PM
Best guys to teach this are folks who have long times on night patrol (and care).

This may be the first time ever acknowledged on the net that I feel good that my 19 years of working nights I may have an idea about this. Usually I get told that I lack the proper background to know these things....;).

Dagga Boy
05-06-2015, 07:51 PM
Not trying to be a dick, Socratic question time; Would you search a building with a headlamp on your head as your lighting tool?


BTW, I did hundreds of high risk warrants with a SureFire 6P 100mph taped to the front end of a CAR15. Rails are the store bought solution.

The Surefire taped to the gun was downright Star Wars stuff compared to the mag light taped to the gun.....or hose clamps if you were really high speed.

Chuck Haggard
05-06-2015, 08:37 PM
The Surefire taped to the gun was downright Star Wars stuff compared to the mag light taped to the gun.....or hose clamps if you were really high speed.

True fact

Lost River
05-06-2015, 09:07 PM
Call me silly, but when I do a building search in a low light environment, I will often simply turn on the interior lights if possible. Funny how when you do that, the bad guys sometimes simply just stand up.

I like weapon mounted lights, but only as a tool to be used in the proper situation. IE mission parameters drive equipment and tactics used.

Dagga Boy
05-06-2015, 09:14 PM
Call me silly, but when I do a building search in a low light environment, I will often simply turn on the interior lights if possible. Funny how when you do that, the bad guys sometimes simply just stand up.

I like weapon mounted lights, but only as a tool to be used in the proper situation. IE mission parameters drive equipment and tactics used.

Hey, easy on giving the secrets away....;)

MD7305
05-06-2015, 09:38 PM
Call me silly, but when I do a building search in a low light environment, I will often simply turn on the interior lights if possible. Funny how when you do that, the bad guys sometimes simply just stand up.


When I went through a Strategos course that was actually a question one of the students had. Can't we just use the light switch? On day one, it seemed like a logical question that one would think could immediately locate all the bad guys and probably reset their OODA loops. By the middle of the class it was understood why you wouldn't flip the switch, because that also gives your position to the bad guy and prevents your ability to move under the cover of darkenss. All dark holes have guns, that works both ways. During that class, moving and using a handheld with thier technique was like cheating, using voodoo black magic or something. I wouldn't believe the capability if I hadnt experieinced it first hand. If you can train lowlight with Strategos or an affiliated intstructor (Chuck?) do it. After that class I was really second guessing myself for insisting our PD obtain WMLs but they have their place. Handheld for searching, WML for control.

BehindBlueI's
05-06-2015, 10:24 PM
Not trying to be a dick, Socratic question time; Would you search a building with a headlamp on your head as your lighting tool?


I'm always willing to learn new things. I'm less ignorant today than I was five years ago, and assuming I survive my current level of ignorance I hope to say the same 5 years from today.

To answer the question, of course not. However I also understand that a light is not an "always on" item. Like so many things there are trade offs. There are things you can do if you have the luxury of backup that you can't do alone. I don't know how to run a pump shotgun and hold a flashlight at the same time and be as proficient as running a fore end mounted light. The AR is much more controllable without bothering with a second light. I carry flashlights like some guys carry knives, with a backup to my backup to my backup. I used to search with a flashlight on a lanyard on one hand and the weapon mounted light on the AR or shotgun and switch as I felt the situation required. The WML is never my ONLY light. But when its time to manipulate something or the situation otherwise dictates I'm much happier to have it as an option than to not too. Again, YMMV.

voodoo_man
05-07-2015, 03:28 AM
...you do it in the dark so that when the lights dont work (been there) or there are no lights (also been there) you arent up shita creek.