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Al T.
08-24-2011, 08:31 AM
Last week, I took a new guy out for some shooting help. We met at the range and I was sort of taken by surprise at the guys stubbornness.

Guy was about my age (50), had a new XD-M in .40 caliber. No holster. Had terrible accuracy generated by poor grip, poor trigger skills and no clue on stance. Resisted every modification for improvement. :(

However, we did get a break through and get him moving in the right direction. After an hour or so. :mad:

Pondering on what I did wrong, I think I failed to establish my credentials early on. I mentioned my schools and background, but this fellow was so new that it meant nothing to him. Looking back, failure on my part to recognize that.

My proposed solution (and I'm very open to comments, thoughts, criticism or suggestions) is to shoot a sort and simple diagnostic course of fire right after the safety briefing. First I shoot it, then the student shoots it. Obviously, if I shoot the diagnostic significantly better, this should, in theory, give the student the idea that I actually do know what I'm talking about.

Does this make sense?

seabiscuit
08-24-2011, 08:36 AM
Does this make sense?

Makes sense to me. If I never saw my climbing coach climb, it'd be hard to take advice from him. But since I know he can crush every route in the gym, I'll listen to him when I'm working on a V3.

ToddG
08-24-2011, 08:41 AM
Teaching and shooting are two completely different things. There are great shooters who can't teach. It sounds like this guy didn't know you so presumably he wasn't a buddy you're helping for giggles. Have you taken any instructor certification classes? Done any adult learning theory study?

Was he being stubborn in that he expressed an unwillingness to change, or was he simply not doing things the way you showed him?

If the former, my position has always been a shrug of the shoulders and a pat on the back. If someone wants to pay to take a class and then ignore what's being taught, that's on him. It doesn't bother me in the least. "I don't want to do it that way" is a perfectly acceptable response from a student. It's his time, his money, his gun, and his life. My job is to show him the better way, explain why it's better, and help him learn how to do it that way if he chooses to.

If he simply failed to do it right, it could be any variety of problems.

FWIW, I start most classes exactly as you describe, running students through the FAST. For my part, I'm doing it because is allows me to assess each individual student's skill level and safety protocols to make corrections as necessary before getting into the meat of the class.

Jay Cunningham
08-24-2011, 08:43 AM
Guy was about my age (50)

Well right there makes it no surprise to me at all. Working with guys in this age range (especially who were "in the military") is for me absolutely the most challenging, frustrating demographic.

rsa-otc
08-24-2011, 08:45 AM
Last week, I took a new guy out for some shooting help. We met at the range and I was sort of taken by surprise at the guys stubbornness.

Guy was about my age (50), had a new XD-M in .40 caliber. No holster. Had terrible accuracy generated by poor grip, poor trigger skills and no clue on stance. Resisted every modification for improvement. :(

However, we did get a break through and get him moving in the right direction. After an hour or so. :mad:

Pondering on what I did wrong, I think I failed to establish my credentials early on. I mentioned my schools and background, but this fellow was so new that it meant nothing to him. Looking back, failure on my part to recognize that.

My proposed solution (and I'm very open to comments, thoughts, criticism or suggestions) is to shoot a sort and simple diagnostic course of fire right after the safety briefing. First I shoot it, then the student shoots it. Obviously, if I shoot the diagnostic significantly better, this should, in theory, give the student the idea that I actually do know what I'm talking about.

Does this make sense?

I do something similar. I shoot the gun upside down, sideways, and with just the trigger finger and thumb holding the weapon. Expends a total of 90 seconds and 6 rounds. It establishes several things.

1. I can shoot well. Often I will get holes touching or through the same hole.
2. you don't need to choke the shit out of the gun it will not come out of your hands (unless it's a 44 mag or S&W 500 :-) )
3. Trigger control and sights count.

Kyle Reese
08-24-2011, 08:48 AM
Well right there makes it no surprise to me at all. Working with guys in this age range (especially who were "in the military") is for me absolutely the most challenging, frustrating demographic.

Agreed & this has been my experience as well.

ToddG
08-24-2011, 08:53 AM
Really? I'll be honest, I do not find one particular demographic more or less "teachable" than any other. I've had young students who'd listen and young students who wouldn't; old guys who'd listen and old guys who wouldn't; girls who'd listen and girls who wouldn't. Etc.

You do need to know how to approach different people. A retired Marine colonel probably doesn't respond to the same style as a 20-something housewife whose husband dragged her to class. But students are individuals, not members of a demographic.

Jay Cunningham
08-24-2011, 08:55 AM
Well, that's because you're awesome Todd. Geez... everybody knows that.

Jay Cunningham
08-24-2011, 09:11 AM
OP, my advice would be to get real Alpha right up front.

The last 50 year old guy that I worked with was a Vietnam Vet (he kept telling me this) who has been shooting PPC for a long time. He was a pretty accurate shooter but had a terrible grip, poor gun handling, and was generally unsafe with his trigger and muzzle control.

During a ball-and-dummy drill he had a squib load (from one of his "never fail" reloads of course) and immediately locked his gun back and then pointed it at his own face to check. When I jumped to try and stop him he started to physically fight with me.

By all rights I could have thrown him off the range but I decided instead to go super-Alpha on him and dress him down. This worked and we were able to finish safely and event-free.

May work in your instance, but consider it case-by-case.

Al T.
08-24-2011, 09:12 AM
Have you taken any instructor certification classes? Done any adult learning theory study?

Todd, I have taken the very basic NRA instructor course and have a background in training from the .mil. However, it occurs to me that I've always had rank or paying or younger students. Peer-to-peer is sort of new. Adult learning theory is new to me, so I'll get locked in on some books from the library and expand my knowledge base.


Was he being stubborn in that he expressed an unwillingness to change, or was he simply not doing things the way you showed him?

Not doing things. Sort of being "uncomfortable getting out of his comfort zone". Breakthrough was working the trigger reset. Forced him to maintain his grip and he tightened up his shot group immediately. At that point I had him.

Rsa-otc, I can do that. Alan Shebaro does something similar to demonstrate the triangle of grip/stance, trigger control and sight alignment.

Jay, agree completely and would add cops to that group. Our state academy has a very poor firearms training cadre and it shows.

rsa-otc
08-24-2011, 09:24 AM
[; girls who'd listen and girls who wouldn't. Etc.

REALLY, to be honest I prefer to teach women for reasons other than the obvious. I have never had one come to the range who wasn't willing to listen. They also don't have any preconceptions about their shooting skills. Usually ends up a much more pleasant teaching experience. (get your minds out of the gutter).

Jay Cunningham
08-24-2011, 09:26 AM
REALLY, to be honest I prefer to teach women for reasons other than the obvious. I have never had one come to the range who wasn't willing to listen. They also don't have any preconceptions about their shooting skills. Usually ends up a much more pleasant teaching experience. (get your minds out of the gutter).

Agree - I have been teaching a lot of women recently and my experience has been extremely positive.

ToddG
08-24-2011, 09:54 AM
Al -- When a student isn't getting it, you need to go through a little mental checklist. First, is the thing he's not getting a priority right now? For example, I won't worry about a student's press-out if his grip and stance are garbage. Along the same lines, I try not to inundate students with twenty different things to change at once. Pick something important and have the student focus on that. Doesn't matter if the rest of his technique is poor, get something right and build on it.

Second, figure out whether it's (a) the student doesn't understand what is right, (b) the student knows what is right but can't do it, (c) the student understands what is right and thinks he's doing it when he isn't, or (d) the student knows what is right but doesn't want to do it.

(d) is easy. See previous post.

(a) is relatively easy. Go through your bag of tricks for teaching that particular point. Some people learn better seeing a demo, some people learn better having it explained verbally, some people do better when they're trying it themselves and you can point out what is suboptimal.

(b) is more difficult and depending on the technique you may actually have to accept that the student is incapable of executing it the way you want. The ideal way to draw from aiwb WHO, for example, is something many people -- myself included -- can't do. So I teach the optimal but also have alternates that folks can use if the optimal won't work.

(c) is the hardest. I see this with trigger manipulation a lot. The guy insists he's doing a smooth, consistent trigger pull when actually he's speeding to the break point, stopping, then crushing through. When someone thinks he's doing something other than what he's really doing, you need to point out the mistake every time you see it and get him to do whatever is necessary -- slow down, concentrate more, videotape himself -- to see the difference between right and wrong when he's doing the shooting himself.

As far as female students go, I've had enough "no I'm good I already know what I'm doing" girls in class that I no longer generalize. I had one girl in class who absolutely insisted on using her left hand as her "strong hand" even though she was right handed. She struggled through all of day 1 of AFHF refusing the change. Then at the beginning of day 2 she shot one 5-shot string "weak hand" (right hand) only and got by bar the best group of the weekend. Until she saw it with her own eyes she wasn't willing to change, just like a lot of guys.

vcdgrips
08-24-2011, 10:16 AM
I have had a hand in teaching students at the the Command and General Staff College in Ft Leavenworth for about the last 7-8 years. All of these students are bright, motivated people. Initially, many of these guys had not been deployed overseas to Iraq/Astan etc and were looking for any advantage the could get and were exceptionally open to what I was teaching despite the fact that I have never served in the military, and am quasi LE at best. They figured if I was taking the time to be there, I must have something to teach.

Fast forward 4 years where almost all of them had been deployed and it was much more difficult to get through to them because what ever they were doing before had clearly "worked." They were rather unimpressed with my job and shooting credentials.

I found that demoing 5 rounds @ 5 yrds with no time limit and having the rounds touching (or nearly so) and then firing 5 rounds @ 5 yrds at about my 70% speed (using a random timer as a start signal) with a similar result, then having them repeat the pattern with often dramatic differences in time and accuracy was the single best way for me to establish some credibilty. The judicious use of a timer, man on man evolutions and my shooting every exercise to standard made for reasonably receptive students.

YMMV Greatly

David Barnes

Occam's Razor
08-24-2011, 10:24 AM
Not to get too weird, but one of the things I've learned from working with other educators is that the way adults learn is so very different from the way kids learn (technically it's call andragogy vs. pedagogy). Adults need to know the "why" and "what benefit" of a teaching / training issue. Granted, there are some who won't respond regardless, but taking a moment to explain why you want them to try something different and what potential benefit there is, seems to help quite a bit with stubborn adults. But, as most have said, demo is vital as well.

rsa-otc
08-24-2011, 10:39 AM
Todd - you would be the exception to prove the rule with regards to female students.:cool:

Razor - Vicky Farnum wrote a book about teaching female students. She made the point that female students require explanation as well, more so than male students.

I find with men it's an macho thing. Being born male makes them TOP SHOTS from the git go.

Al T.
08-24-2011, 10:49 AM
Todd, you've given me a lot to look into. Thanks! I've googled the adult learning theory and that's a rich field of study. I need to internalize that.

David, excellent point. When I was at FT. Leavenworth, there was no range requirements. Is this a commercial enterprise?

OR, agree. I should have had better goals than "shoot gooder". My bad.

Folks, thanks so much for the education. :)

Josh Runkle
08-24-2011, 04:56 PM
I agree with most of what's been said already. That being said:

1.) Teaching and shooting are two separate things. Many shooters take instructor courses so they have a cool title, then they tune in to facts about shooting they didn't know and zone out when it comes to theory on how to teach. Simple teaching concepts like "going from the known to the unknown" or "going from simple to complex" sound rudimentary and self-explanitory on paper, but are entirely different when you are the one trying to implant new ideas and ensure that the student received the majority of what you are saying.

Being a good teacher is not the same as being a good demonstrator. I can guarantee if you picked 5 random NFL players to teach a football class, 4/5 would be terrible teachers, excellent demonstrators, and they would never even know that they're bad at teaching.

2.) I've found that there is often a lot of "sales" technique involved in being a good instructor. With a difficult student:

A regular instructor might say, "Here's the proper technique for holding a firearm. I went to good schools/have a good background and I do it this way/they all do it this way."

A better instructor might say, "Here's the proper technique for holding a firearm. Here's why it allows you to shoot better: xyz...etc..."

For me (with a student that is having difficulty with change, or isn't open-minded) I use a bit of sales technique, intermixing statements and questions, allowing the student to "inform themself." Then, I'm not changing the student, they are changing themself:


"Having as much physical contact with the firearm allows for a more stable position and better recoil management as well as more retention if an attacker was trying to take a firearm from you. Does everyone agree with that/do you agree with that?

Then, if we believe that, we want to ensure that when we are holding the firearm, we are making as much contact as possible, without causing the gun to malfunction, right? (again, questioning the student)

While there are many different ways of holding a firearm, we've (talking to the group/person in the room) decided that we don't want to hold the firearm in a way that we are losing contact/retention on the gun, so let me show you a few different grips you may have seen on tv (demonstrate improper grips very quickly, like 15-20 seconds) and now, one where we can make as much contact as possible with the firearm. (show proper grip)"




...after I've said something to that effect, or something similar, the student wants to hold the gun in that manner. It's no longer a case where I want the student to hold the gun in that manner.

This is just a generic example, and maybe you even teach grip (reasons behind it or way to do it) very differently than I do...I'm just saying that sometimes you have to teach in a way that forces the student to come to their own conclusion - the conclusion you wanted them to come to all along. It's not manipulative, you're simply being strategic about the way you (tactically) ask questions and make statements in a manner where you can win very small battles and allow them to stay on the same side as you.

Teaching, at the end of the day comes down to the instructor and learning is about the student AND the instructor. There are no bad students. I've honestly never had one. If there is an issue, it is most likely with me, the instructor.

vcdgrips
08-24-2011, 05:07 PM
Al,

It is a commercial enterprise in which students are charged a modest tuition and get 4 class sessions and 4 range sessions. About 1200 rounds total.
The plankowners are long time shooters/students/trainers who have a business doing basic pistol and CCW work and have lived in the Leavenworth area for 30+years.

It has been extremely rewarding to play a small part in seeing a student go from novice to consciously competent with regard to their pistol skills in a realtively short period of time.

David

Al T.
08-24-2011, 05:38 PM
Josh, excellent points. Thanks! :D

David, cool. I was there in 1987, so I'm obviously dated. Good on you for providing the training.

41magfan
08-25-2011, 07:58 AM
It sounds to me like your guy simply doesn't have the desire to "learn" anything. To those that do have the desire, I think it's my responsibility as an instructor/trainer to use every usable methodology to get my points across.

After almost 30 years I'm still finding new ways to say, do and demonstrate the same principle or technique, and it still amazes me how differently people assimilate information and instruction. As a LE trainer, I’ve also learned to accept the fact that the attitudes and abilities of my student audience (even in aggregate) doesn’t necessarily reflect on my abilities as an instructor. After all, you can’t make chicken salad outta chicken sh*t ……. no matter how good you are. On an individual basis however, I've help develop better shooters than I am myself - as some of my students have better command of their motivation and skills.

Del
08-25-2011, 10:11 AM
This is a great thread. I'm the newest firearms instructor here at my station and I'm always put through the test from the Police Officers. So I always demo any drill and explain why it is done this or that way. My goal is to keep them qualified with their duty weapons and help them fine tune their skills by using drills that make them think and place accurate shots:).

Adam
08-25-2011, 03:23 PM
That’s not uncommon. I’ve shot with people who the only thing holding them back from being better was working on the fundamentals. At the class I took with Tom Givens last month, I was pretty confident in my skill level, but I was there to LEARN and if he were to have torn me down to square one, I would have listened. I am a STUDENT of the art of the pistol and I don’t think that will ever change. Some people don’t like getting their ego popped and just want to be patted on the back for everything they are doing right.

“Well I’ve always done it this way.” When you were a baby, pissing your pants was the way you had always done it, so is that still your preferred method?

Probably my favorite was “Sorry, too much military training!” Really? The military taught you poor shooting position and grip on the pistol? Must be OPSEC.

Jay Cunningham
08-25-2011, 03:32 PM
Probably my favorite was “Sorry, too much military training!” Really? The military taught you poor shooting position and grip on the pistol? Must be OPSEC.

"That's how we'd do it in combat!" Right! The Army taught you to point your pistol at your face!

:D

Mike Honcho
08-25-2011, 10:03 PM
Probably my favorite was “Sorry, too much military training!” Really? The military taught you poor shooting position and grip on the pistol? Must be OPSEC.

More like the military just let them do whatever the hell they wanted and let them do it until it was ingrained. Lack of training is still training something, just bad.

Alpha Sierra
08-27-2011, 08:18 AM
It sounds to me like your guy simply doesn't have the desire to "learn" anything.
Before I commit to trying to help someone with their shooting, I try my hardest to figure out where they stand in the area of wanting to learn.

If I detect anything but full openness, I decline or find a way to not do it. It's hard to explain but I am just not cut out to deal with people that aren't full on learners.

orionz06
08-27-2011, 10:31 AM
Guy was about my age (50), had a new XD-M in .40 caliber. No holster. Had terrible accuracy generated by poor grip, poor trigger skills and no clue on stance. Resisted every modification for improvement. :(

My proposed solution (and I'm very open to comments, thoughts, criticism or suggestions) is to shoot a sort and simple diagnostic course of fire right after the safety briefing. First I shoot it, then the student shoots it. Obviously, if I shoot the diagnostic significantly better, this should, in theory, give the student the idea that I actually do know what I'm talking about.

Does this make sense?

For something different I have done a fair amount of instruction and I have ALWAYS found showing people what good looks like followed by their way to be very effective. Now not listening in this instance generally had a pain penalty, but doing it properly had many lightbulb moments. The issue I found was the line between "hey, look how awesome I am" and "here is how you do it" varies from person to person. I also varied how much "in charge" I was, or as Jay put it, get real alpha.

Also, think there might be any benefit to making the course of fire a little tougher?




"That's how we'd do it in combat!" Right! The Army taught you to point your pistol at your face!

:D

There may have been a few steps to that process he forgot over the years...

BWT
08-27-2011, 08:12 PM
Reminds me of my Dad, I... he's my Father, so giving him suggestions, no matter how delicately always get the same look. "Excuse me?"

He was in the military as well (Air Force), now he'll do that, but when I asked him did he remember how to disassemble his AR-15 from learning to disassemble his M16... Well heck no, he hadn't done that in nearly 40 years.

Depending on the situation, it's hard to control who you're teaching.

Some people just aren't going to be teachable, and I think you have to be okay with that. I mean do everything you can by all means, but certain things like Safety, are a big deal, I don't care if you don't know how to use your gun, where the mag release is, safety, etc, etc. Safety is a must.

I'm no expert, and not a teacher, but that's just been my experience, I'm usually the most experienced person I shoot with (ETA: I take a lot of people who have never been shooting out, friends, family, etc, and for the amount of time I spend around guns, etc. I'm usually the most experienced. I'm not an expert, or an instructor.), I don't try to talk down to people or teach them, but if they're struggling or doing something clearly wrong, I try to give pointers or a suggestion.

Kyle Reese
08-27-2011, 08:24 PM
In the event there's any conflict of interest or a unique dynamic (teaching family, girlfriend, etc) it's a good idea to have them seek competent instruction from a third party.

This helps remove any failure on their part from impacting your relationship (we've all seen the ticked off looking girlfriends at the range, especially when the guy cannot articulate what needs to happen, and lacks the requisite skill to diagnose and correct the problems).



Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Tapatalk

GJM
08-27-2011, 11:22 PM
When interacting with males and firearms, it is helpful to remember something Jeff Cooper said, "by virtue of being born male, men think they are an expert at three things, two of which are driving cars and shooting firearms."

Even attending high level classes, I have found that it is at best a 50/50 proposition whether a shooter is willing to accept feedback from another student. Unless a fellow participant is obviously open to and desirous of feedback, I have learned to just pass on my observation to an instructor.

Joe in PNG
08-28-2011, 03:26 AM
In the event there's any conflict of interest or a unique dynamic (teaching family, girlfriend, etc) it's a good idea to have them seek competent instruction from a third party.

This helps remove any failure on their part from impacting your relationship (we've all seen the ticked off looking girlfriends at the range, especially when the guy cannot articulate what needs to happen, and lacks the requisite skill to diagnose and correct the problems).

A few years ago, I took my sister out to try her new .38. I went over to her lane to check out her progress, and she turned my way, trigger on finger and muzzle pointing my direction. It was at that point I took her to meet the range's in house instructor.

Double
09-11-2011, 03:16 PM
Really? I'll be honest, I do not find one particular demographic more or less "teachable" than any other. I've had young students who'd listen and young students who wouldn't; old guys who'd listen and old guys who wouldn't; girls who'd listen and girls who wouldn't. Etc.

You do need to know how to approach different people. A retired Marine colonel probably doesn't respond to the same style as a 20-something housewife whose husband dragged her to class. But students are individuals, not members of a demographic.


When a new "instructor" reports in or I have someone return from our firearms instructor course, I send them to another "Instructor Development Course" that independently from firearms is solely about instructing. Knowing about firearms, is different from shooting firearms and both are completely different from teaching. Knowing the type of learner you are interacting with must happen quickly for learning to take place properly. Adult learning theories, Human performance technologies and workforce management are tools and concepts that most instructors, sadly, have never heard of. I wish someone would have handed me the book "The Art of Speed Reading People" years ago, instead I learned it on the job, some never do. I ensure that everyone on my staff gets a copy when issued a range bag as part of their instructor kit. You can pick one up from amazon.com for less than a box of cheap 9mm.

Taking annual courses/classes on briefing techniques, podium skills, feedback fundamentals, course design and lesson plan development are more important to me as a program manager/instructor than attending ABC shooting course or 123 shooting course. Properly incorporating both types into your own long term training plan (or your staffs) will further your professional development and rapidly impact student performance. Anyone can give a "Death-By-PowerPoint" read the slide to me class, but what will your audience/customers retain from it.....

Laughingdog
10-18-2011, 01:51 PM
Agree - I have been teaching a lot of women recently and my experience has been extremely positive.

We get a pretty even mix in our CHP classes, and I'd have to say that my experience with women has been mostly positive. 10% or so end up being the "my son/husband was a cop so I know what I'm doing" type.

With men, I've had some where just seeing me shoot doesn't seem to phase them, because they use the "well, my gun just isn't as accurate as yours" excuse. Easily resolved obviously. It's just amusing how some people will come to a class to get better, and then spend their time trying to prove that they don't really need to get any better.