G36 no more?

[Glenn E. Meyer]

http://www.janes.com/article/50946/germany-defence-minister-sees-no-future-for-g36?utm_campaign=[PMP]_PC5308_J360%2029.4.15_KV_Deployment&utm_medium=em%20ail&utm_source=Eloqua

Other sites report similar analysis of rifle problems.

[HCM]

This is not new info. The heating / accuracy issues with the G36 have been know for at least a decade. Many of the German military and police SF units have been using the 416 for a few years now.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

It's just seemed to come to the fore with a series of new articles and governmental blather.

[Chuck Haggard]

I know of several agencies that dumped the G36 due to failure to be able to keep a zero.

[HCM]

I think what brought it to a head was complaints by German troops deployed to Afghanistan. this issue was an open secret and many of their troops were doing whatever they could to get hold of a G3 or 416.

There were rumors of this during the US military's XM – 8 trials as well.

As far as I know, the Spanish military are the only other large-scale General issue users of the G 36. The Mexicans have adopted a homegrown G 36 ish rifle, the FX-05 as the successor to their domestically produced G3's. I wonder if their new rifle suffers the same issues or if their modifications fixed the issue.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

There's a report out somewhere I saw that the new Indian Army rifle stinks. It's everywhere!

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/indias-anti-terror-troops-despise-their-assault-rifle-3fcafa392aaa

[HCM]

I know of several agencies that dumped the G36 due to failure to be able to keep a zero.

It's my understanding the U.S. Capitol Police are among them.

[DocGKR]

The G36 has always been a steaming pile of feces. Thank goodness BG Moran was not able to force the XM8 down peoples throats...

[Chuck Haggard]

The G36 has always been a steaming pile of feces. Thank goodness BG Moran was not able to force the XM8 down peoples throats...

Word!


I have no idea what the sci-fi fan boy love for that gun was.

[gruntjim]

especially compared with its Bundeswehr predecessor, the G3. That rifle was fun, effective and accurate.

[Chuck Haggard]

especially compared with its Bundeswehr predecessor, the G3. That rifle was fun, effective and accurate.

They'd literally be better off going back in time and re-issuing the G3 than staying with the G36, IMHO. I hope for the sake of the German troops they get something like the 416 soon.

[TiroFijo]

The G36 has always been a steaming pile of feces. Thank goodness BG Moran was not able to force the XM8 down peoples throats...

I remember the HK booth showcasing the XM8 as "your next service rifle", almost as a done deal...

[Luger]

Acording to the media over here, the G36 has serious accuracy issues at distances over 100 Meters, after firing 90 shots fullauto.

Are other assault rifles (AR15, AUG, SIG 550) really better under this conditions?

[DocGKR]

Yes....

[Luger]

Doc, could you explain this to me with some more details?

I have absolutly no experience with this topic and would like to learn some more about it.

[Chuck Haggard]

Luger, the G36s I have seen would start to wander on the zero when not even being shot full auto, just a normal carbine course where we are shooting semi-auto and the gun heats up a bit. I would not consider this level of firing rate to be anything abusive, or even unrealistic in a fight, and other weapon systems, certainly the AR15/M16 family, are in no way prone to this, nor any other modern assault rifle I have worked with such as the AKs, etc.

[TiroFijo]

Chuck, how bad is the wandering zero problem? Are we talking about 4" POI movement at 100 yds, or double/triple?

It is amazing how could a system with a large POI variation could pass military tests in several nations, this is the kind of thing that would pop up even in informal "happy trigger" practice with knowledgeable amateurs.

[TCinVA]

Luger, the G36s I have seen would start to wander on the zero when not even being shot full auto, just a normal carbine course where we are shooting semi-auto and the gun heats up a bit. I would not consider this level of firing rate to be anything abusive, or even unrealistic in a fight, and other weapon systems, certainly the AR15/M16 family, are in no way prone to this, nor any other modern assault rifle I have worked with such as the AKs, etc.

G36 trunion:

http://i.imgur.com/ixgee0P.jpg

That area gets very hot on a weapon and in short order.

There's a reason why no other rifle design does it that way.

[BaiHu]

Chuck, how bad is the wandering zero problem? Are we talking about 4" POI movement at 100 yds, or double/triple?

It is amazing how could a system with a large POI variation could pass military tests in several nations, this is the kind of thing that would pop up even in informal "happy trigger" practice with knowledgeable amateurs.
I can't find the article right now, but I read somewhere that the zero would shift 8" at 100 yds. I'll ask a friend who sent it to me to locate it.

ETA: maybe start here. Get your German Google translation ready. http://m.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article106223581/Deutsches-Sturmgewehr-fuer-langen-Kampf-untauglich.html

[TiroFijo]

I would have much more confidence in the report from our esteemed staff SME than a newspaper article...

[BaiHu]

I would have much more confidence in the report from our esteemed staff SME than a newspaper article...
I believe there is a link to the actual study in that article.

[Chuck Haggard]

I've never been involved in getting to the range and doing an actual study on this issue with the G36 and measuring group variances. I have been at the range when guys were running G36d, the guns start to heat up and suddenly the groups look like the guy forgot how to shoot, or he loaded the gun with #4 buck.

An example would be at one class where a squared away shooter saw his 50 meter groups go from what you would expect from a quality 5.56 carbine to not being able to make head shots, and rounds all over the chest area, not a shift at that point so much as a big increase in the circular probably error that the gun in capable of. The reported 4-8" groups/zero shifting sounds to be in exactly the same ballpark as what I have observed.

I note that the G36K models seem to be less prone to this in my observation, but then the 8"-ish barrel (I forget, they are like 8.5 IIRC) would put less weight and stress on the trunnion than a longer barrel so that only makes sense.

I have been told that one noted issue was that a guy could have a solid zero, heat the gun up, groups get really wide as noted, then the gun cools, but the zero has shifted to what it was. Many other carbines will start to throw wider groups when heated up badly, the pencil barrel ARs will often do this, but all of those examples return to zero when they cool.

[johncorey]

The following is my experience with the G36 as an issued rifle as a Mountain Trooper in the Bundeswehr back in 2003-2004.

We ran those rifles as hard as possible, in both shooting, as well as military mountaineering environments. The temperature extremes they endured during my time in the Heer was anything from 20 below and ice storms, to hours long direct sunlight above 2000m altitude during the summer. The "space age" polymer did seem to hold up just fine to the climate changes and the guns always went bang when needed. Having cleared that off the bat, most of us noted a severe decrease in accuracy during intense shooting cycles at the range or at range complexes. As some other members have witnessed first hand, all day 100m torso shot targets with the 3x optic would suddenly need 3-4 rounds to successfully engage. The more rounds that were put through the pipe while decreasing time in between rounds fired, was almost always a surefire way to start missing the targets. The curios (at the time) thing was that our designated light machine gunners who ran the heavy barrel G36 version, rarely were affected by the degrading accuracy issues. I'm sure their groups opened up, but I distinctly recall the ribbing traded amongst the dudes who needed the aforementioned 3-4 rounds to engage the usually easy targets VS the HB G36 gunners who did not.

In addition, our RCO had ordered that all soldiers would maintain readiness and stay qualified with the G3s, which contrary to popular belief were never swapped 1-for-1 with the G36 in the Mountain Regiment. Which we of course did. The running joke was that if war breaks out, only the REMFs would stick to the G36s since they wouldn't need them for anything more than personal defense.

In sum, it is my opinion that even as far back as 2003 when the G36 was the new shiny cool toy, it was widely accepted in my unit at that time as being subpar to the G3 in many regards. I seriously doubt that it was more than a human observation of performance, instead of the science and testing which has been trickling out as of late. It is my belief that the German Defense Ministry is using these reports as a reason to switch to the 416/417 family of rifles, and since the G36 life and sustainment cycle is far from reaching its end, this is the only justifiable way to do so.

[Gadfly]

I was excited to put hands on a G36 many years ago. It looks cool and it said HK so it had to be good. Right?

Well after fingering it for about 15-20 min, playing with the folding stock, using the dual stacked optics, and going through the manual of arms... Meh. Not that ergonomic, stock felt cheap, stacked sights sucked in the configuration they had, and the charging handle felt flimsy. Of, and the sights are attached to polymer, not to the barrel or trunion... So I expected them to suck just by looking at the gun.

I wanted to like it. Then I held it. No thanks.

[Luger]

Well, thank you. When I first heard about the G36 issues I thought it was another anti Bundeswehr/H&K narrative by the media and green/leftist politicians.

After getting more detailed information, I have to change my mind. Obviously the G36 has serious problems and it is unlikely, that H&K will be able to fix it.

[Moshjath]

The G36 has always been a steaming pile of feces. Thank goodness BG Moran was not able to force the XM8 down peoples throats...

Is this the same BG Moran who is responsible for selecting the UCP pattern for the Army Combat Uniform?

[Kyle Reese]

Well, thank you. When I first heard about the G36 issues I thought it was another anti Bundeswehr/H&K narrative by the media and green/leftist politicians.

After getting more detailed information, I have to change my mind. Obviously the G36 has serious problems and it is unlikely, that H&K will be able to fix it.

Maybe we'll see more used G-36's appearing in Kurdistan in the coming months?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[HCM]

http://popularmilitary.com/german-military-loses-lawsuit-hk-faulty-rifles-dont-shoot-straight/

German military loses lawsuit to H&K over faulty rifles that don’t shoot straight


According to Zeit Online, the Bundeswehr has lost to the gun manufacturer in the court of law after complaining that their G36 rifles became inaccurate to the point of unusable when exposed to hot weather or overheating from constant firing, prompting the Ministry of Defence to demand compensation or warranty work for the subpar rifles.

However, in the Koblenz courtroom, HK was declared the winner based on their assertion that because the Defence Ministry did not make its specifications for the weapon clear enough, the gun company provided a “lowest bidder” rifle and is not responsible for compensation or repair.

The G36 -which is made famous outside of Germany due to its inclusion in countless video games- has since been dumped by the Bundeswehr, who decided in 2015 that it no longer has a place in their arsenal.

[Dagga Boy]

A bit of a counter. I spent a lot of time testing the G36's for an article. Most of my shooting was done with the Compact version. With the HK rail and optic removed, Knights Armament mounts and an Aimpoint Comp M3.....probably the best shooting, reliable SBR I have ever used and a pleasure to shoot. I fully believe the issue is the optics bridge used on many of the guns.

Dump all the rail stuff, use actual metal mounts and sights, and a solid optic and the problem goes away. I don't know who spec'd the optics abortion on the G36, but that is really the issue that I saw. Another issue with the Shorty's.....often equipped with E/O Tech's. Talk about doubling down. Of course....wandering zero's are a non-issue, because nobody gave a crap when discussing E/O tech's here, that are internally suffering the same issues with what polymers do when heated and cooled. Reality, some stuff in guns should not be made of polymers. Reality check number two, some things on guns should not be required to be be made of crap they shouldn't be.

[HCM]

HK designed and built the rifle to the specifications of the German Defense Ministry.

The defects reported are defects only when applied to standards not originally specified by the Defense Ministry (like hot weather) and if they built it better than specified, it would have been more expensive than the desired cost.

HK are not denying the fault- just their liability for it. Basically HK says we gave you exactly what you asked for because it doesn't get that hot in central Europe and Afrika Korps part II was not really a thing at the time.

It is illustrative for those wondering why our rifle and pistol test specs are hundreds of pages and testing takes years.

[spinmove_]

HK designed and built the rifle to the specifications of the German Defense Ministry.

The defects reported are defects only when applied to standards not originally specified by the Defense Ministry (like hot weather) and if they built it better than specified, it would have been more expensive than the desired cost.

HK are not denying the fault- just their liability for it. Basically HK says we gave you exactly what you asked for because it doesn't get that hot in central Europe and Afrika Korps part II was not really a thing at the time.

It is illustrative for those wondering why our rifle and pistol test specs are hundreds of pages and testing takes years.

It's also why if something weird like that happens, I don't end up buying it. Case in point with the EO Techs, because although I live in a fairly temperate climate, that doesn't necessarily mean I'll ALWAYS be in that climate. Use case scenario?

Example:

I have a range near me that has two circuits of sporting clays as well as a 100yd rifle range. If I'm shooting clays, I'll shoot in the morning. If I'm zeroing a rifle, I typically do that in the afternoon. If I do both in the same day guess what gets left in a hot car trunk until I pull it out and take it to the range? Even if I'm not zeroing and I happened to have zero'd with the optic at room temperature it'll mess with the optic. Now lets throw a monkey wrench in there and add the variable of doing rifle shooing while visiting family. What family am I visiting? Well that depends. Am I visiting family on the north coast of the northern Michigan peninsula or am I visiting family that's just north of Miami? Am I visiting either of those sets of family in the summer or winter? At least 3 out of the 4 possibilities of weather for visitation could be WAY out of spec with when I zero'd the rifle on a sunny 80F day at home.

[LSP972]

... Afrika Korps part II was not really a thing at the time.



Dude, you are a hoot. I just choked on my frigging orange juice. Thanks for that...:cool:

.

[HCM]

Dude, you are a hoot. I just choked on my frigging orange juice. Thanks for that...:cool:

.

You're welcome !