Looking for opinions on Sayoc Tactical (for firearms training)

[Pup town]

Anyone taken a pistol or carbine class from Sayoc Tactical?

I'll be honest, I'm a little skeptical based on what I've read - they don't name specific instructors. There's no mention of mil or LE experience, and really there's no real info on the unnamed instructors background. They are really, really into knives, started off in Filipino martial arts and then started teaching firearm classes. Not normally a group I'd look twice at.

However, they have links to Kyle Defoor and Northern Red, so maybe I shouldn't dismiss them. (Though now that I think about it, I don't know if Defoor endorsed their firearms instruction. I do think he like their combatives and "mindset".)

I have a very limited window of time that I can take a class this summer, and they are offering a course during that time frame. They wouldn't be my first choice for a class, but my options are limited. Trying to get options on whether to consider them.

[BJJ]

I think one of their guys says he has been in 300 street fights and never lost... That sounds weird for a number of reasons to me. Other than that and the Defoor connection, I don't know anything about them.

[Pup town]

I think one of their guys says he has been in 300 street fights and never lost... That sounds weird for a number of reasons to me. Other than that and the Defoor connection, I don't know anything about them.

Yeah, that's Tom Kier. And it's 500 street fights. http://www.tomfurman.com/tuhon-tom-kier-of-sayoc-kali-on-conditioning/

[DocGKR]

Be like Nancy and just say NO.

[Artemas]

If you have been in that many "fights" I think you are doing something wrong.

[Hizzie]

I went to a local edged weapons seminar with Guro Haley Elmore. It was my worst training experience ever.

[Eyesquared]

I went to a local edged weapons seminar with Guro Haley Elmore. It was my worst training experience ever.

Do you mind elaborating? Not questioning you, just trying to understand what they teach.

Edit: Apologies to OP for the derail. For what it's worth I think your doubts are totally valid. The weirdness surrounding Tom Kier is enough of a turn off for me.

[Cheap Shot]

I went to a local edged weapons seminar with Guro Haley Elmore. It was my worst training experience ever.

Mind elaborating specifically?

I'm neutral other than, I have an interest in knife training, Elmore appears to be mfg and selling the "rat" knife which I'm a fan of (but not at $500), and Kyle DeFoor (who I'm a big fan of) endorses Sayoc. Any insight is greatly appreciated.

Apologies to OP for drift

[TCinVA]

I think one of their guys says he has been in 300 street fights and never lost... That sounds weird for a number of reasons to me. Other than that and the Defoor connection, I don't know anything about them.

I saw a claim of 500 "sport" fights plus over 1,000 "street fights". No losses.

That would be a pretty impressive record for a number of reasons...not least of which is how you utterly destroy people on 1,000 separate occasions without ever facing criminal and civil liability for having done so.

As for firearms instruction, I have no idea who they have teaching or what their background is. I do know what, say, SouthNarc's background is. And Tom Givens. And Ernie Langdon....etc. With so many good known quantities out there teaching firearms I don't see a reason to take a risk on something I don't know.

[markp]

I'll just leave this here:

https://youtu.be/x3UfEa_QFBo
and Tom Kier talks about his background in this vid;

https://youtu.be/FE3B2mZXxx4

[Gray222]

Ive done extensive training with STG.

Pistol, rifle, blade, etc. Befote Defoor got in the fold.

I will say that it is unlike any other training in that they dont teach the typical stuff. Tom has a very specific way of instructing and most pistol classes result in students Not making the standards in order to get into the 2.0 class. I think I know of 7 off the top of my head who have made it while I was present. Their instructor standard is even higher and very much harder.

Furthermore the mindset talks are the best ive ever heard. The whole class is an experience.

Thing is, its not meant for the average person in that you have to be serious about your safety and are willing to get out of your comfort zone to learn. Ive seen people quit after one day because they couldn't cut it and felt embarrassed.

If you are thinkin about taking the classes later this year ill be at a bunch of them helpin out.

[Cookie Monster]

Reaching back to 2003, I spent three weeks in classes with Tom Kier coming and going from them. Kali mostly, no firearms. The stuff was deep and intense. I'd revisit.

Can't comment about current stuff, no knowledge.

Cookie Monster

[BaiHu]

I saw a claim of 500 "sport" fights plus over 1,000 "street fights". No losses.

That would be a pretty impressive record for a number of reasons...not least of which is how you utterly destroy people on 1,000 separate occasions without ever facing criminal and civil liability for having done so.

As for firearms instruction, I have no idea who they have teaching or what their background is. I do know what, say, SouthNarc's background is. And Tom Givens. And Ernie Langdon....etc. With so many good known quantities out there teaching firearms I don't see a reason to take a risk on something I don't know.
Don't know the guy from a hole in the wall, but if the number of fights is only 10-20% the quoted number, then it makes me think of the saying Raylan Givens made even more famous: if you run into an a$$hole in the morning....

[El Cid]

Don't know the guy from a hole in the wall, but if the number of fights is only 10-20% the quoted number, then it makes me think of the saying Raylan Givens made even more famous: if you run into an a$$hole in the morning....

It's my understanding he was a bouncer for most of his "fights". Take that for whatever it's worth.

STG has been on my list for edged weapon training since training with KD opened my eyes. The only concern I would have with STG is that they've become more well known and commercialized. Sometimes this can be a problem as an organization struggles to keep up and if it grows too quickly they can lose some of what made them so highly sought. Not saying this is the case here - but as I see them get involved in other aspects of training and involved in TV shows (NCIS as an example) it's something that can happen.

To the OP, if it's the only class you can work into your schedule then I'd say do it. Every class and instructor will provide you with take aways of things you will choose to adopt and things you don't. Heck, I know folks who have spent good money on famous and highly touted instructors only to be disappointed because it wasn't what it was hyped to be. There are no guarantees. In the end you are out at a range and working with your gear/weapons. The worst class beats sitting at home doing nothing.

[SLG]

Ive done extensive training with STG.

Pistol, rifle, blade, etc. Befote Defoor got in the fold.

I will say that it is unlike any other training in that they dont teach the typical stuff. Tom has a very specific way of instructing and most pistol classes result in students Not making the standards in order to get into the 2.0 class. I think I know of 7 off the top of my head who have made it while I was present. Their instructor standard is even higher and very much harder.

what are some of the standards?

[TGS]

Thing is, its not meant for the average person in that you have to be serious about your safety and are willing to get out of your comfort zone to learn. Ive seen people quit after one day because they couldn't cut it and felt embarrassed.

Voodoo, can you expand on this? Thanks in advance.

[Lomshek]

I'll just leave this here:

https://youtu.be/x3UfEa_QFBo
and Tom Kier talks about his background in this vid;

https://youtu.be/FE3B2mZXxx4

Power assist???

[Chuck Haggard]

I'll just leave this here:

https://youtu.be/x3UfEa_QFBo
and Tom Kier talks about his background in this vid;

https://youtu.be/FE3B2mZXxx4

I am rather underwhelmed

[HopetonBrown]

I'll just leave this here:

https://youtu.be/x3UfEa_QFBo
and Tom Kier talks about his background in this vid;

https://youtu.be/FE3B2mZXxx4

The knife stuff reminded me of a scene from The Hunted. Looks like they did some consulting for the movie. I have a real dialed in friend who does knife stuff with them. Doesn't really look like somewhere I'd go for firearms training.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAU33jYa-yE

[Eyesquared]

From watching that video of the Warrior 2.0: Pistol class I can't understand what about the standards make it so hard to qualify for the 2.0 class. In terms to shooting skills a lot of those guys don't appear to be on the level of USPSA A class shooters. (Obviously this is just a wild ass guess) I realize that having any standards at all for an advanced class is more rigorous than the norm for most instructors, but I don't really get it.

[Thomas Kier]

I came across this thread and thought I should reply.

I'm the Director of Sayoc Tactical Group (STG) and one of the persons mentioned on many of these post. First let me explain STG's take on firearm training. We analyze very closely the teaching methodology and relevance of the curriculum. And then the progression of the training. Making sure it pertains to the goals of the course and fits the skills of the people attending. We do not teach firearms competition training, all training must be relevant to real world situations. We primarily teach Elite Military and or Government Law Enforcement, the public classes we teach are more of an aside for us. We do not try and build up our instructors with bio's or talk about their LEO or Mil backgrounds because that is not important, the curricula and process for improving is the main goal. What is most important is, are they good teachers and is what they are teaching correct.

As for my personal background, I decided at a young age to focus on fighting and lethal skill sets and developing my knowledge in these areas for my whole life. I have done over 25 years of training in Kali, Silat, boxing, wrestling and MMA to improve my skill sets. I have been in a lot of fights of all sorts, many of these fights while working as a bouncer for much of my 20's into my 30's. If you bounce in bars with the idea of working in bars that you will get you in a lot of fights, anyone would have hundreds of fights in over ten years, not hard to do, I'm not sure why that is so surprising to people, do the math.

Even though I had been a shooter my whole life, it was not until about 15 years ago, I really started looking hard into Pistol training and studying the methodology behind current training and at that time started working with the military for the integration of combative skill sets. As most of you are aware, there will be multiple disciplines used in a very small time window, during a real life violent engagement. And yet all of these skill sets are not always trained and even when they are trained, they are not integrated in training. If we take the given that training should mirror as closely as possible, what we are training for, it is a mistake not to do so. In our 1.0 classes it in marksmanship and weapon manipulation, in 2.0 it is working from concealment and looking at other weapons integrating with the pistol, and all classes from then on are more of that progression. We have standards for each level, when you can execute the standards %100 you can move on.

From what I read on this thread, most of you seem very knowledgeable and serious, but if you still have any real doubts about training with us, you should find a different shooting class to attend.

Thomas Kier
Director of Operation
Sayoc Tactical Group

[Hizzie]

Specifically?

Elmore was late getting there.

We took an hour lunch for an abbreviated training day. Elmore was an additional 30min late coming back from that lunch. Elmore blamed the restaurant staff instead of taking ownership.

Elmore talked down the the facility staff as if they were lower than shit he had stepped in.

Elmore discussed how people are instantly stopped when shot once by a firearm.

Elmore discussed knife targeting. Im a paramedic and have attended several cadaver labs. An anesthesiologist buddy took the class with me. Some of the things Elmore stated did not track with human anatomy.

We ended on time.

Overall it seemed as if he just strolled in without any plan what so ever of what to teach that day.

I did not feel as if I had gotten my money's worth. But I now know how to throw chopsticks.

[Kyle Reese]

what are some of the standards?

I'm curious as well.

[Gray222]

I did two AAR's of the pistol 1.0 class

http://vdmsr.blogspot.com/2012/07/aar-warrior-pistol-10-tom-kier-may-2627.html

http://vdmsr.blogspot.com/2013/05/aar-warrior-pistol-10-tom-kier-april.html#axzz2SZrPL3OW

Check them out.


what are some of the standards?

Student pistol standards for 1.0 class:

one shot from (concealment) draw on "A-zone" at 7 yards 1.5 seconds - could be higher though, I don't specifically remember since I never worried about it. - http://vdmsr.blogspot.com/2014/10/one-shot-from-concealment.html

Farnham drill, clean, in under 12 seconds - video of drill - http://vdmsr.blogspot.com/2014/09/farnham-drill-stg-warrior-pistol-class.html

Hostage head shot target drill, clean, in under 12 seconds - video of drill(s) - http://vdmsr.blogspot.com/2015/02/range-report.html

200 drill - 150 or better

700 drill - 550 or better

May be one or two more that I do not remember, but that's the gist of it. The accuracy drills are the most difficult for people, instructor standards are much difficult and have to be done on demand.


Voodoo, can you expand on this? Thanks in advance.

Just that it's a mindset thing. Like the thread started here on PF about a member having issues with his family members lacking mindset to carry a firearm or even own one. There is more to just "being aware" and more to the whole process of simply stating what mindset is and how to magically attain it. Tom does an excellent mindset talk and it is second to none. Not just blow smoke here, those who have taken the time to sit down with him and listen to what he has to say on the matter either get the information they are looking for verbalized or they are overwhelmed showing their weakness.

[TGS]

... or they are overwhelmed showing their weakness.

Just to put this into perspective, this forum has a lot of people who have made occupations out of putting themselves in harms way or outright killing people....not bouncing bars.....so without any real further explanation that I had asked for this statement really sounds sophomoric to me....like something from the fake karate guy in the movie Napoleon Dynamite.

[Gray222]

Just to put this into perspective, this forum has a lot of people who have made occupations out of putting themselves in harms way or outright killing people....not bouncing bars.....so without any real further explanation that I had asked for this statement really sounds sophomoric to me....like something from the fake karate guy in the movie Napoleon Dynamite.

Yep, I am one of those people.

The shortest one I've heard is 30 minutes.

So If you expect me to type out 30 minutes worth of info, you are going to be disappointed.

Show up to a class and see for yourself. I am just passing on first hand info.

[Cookie Monster]

[QUOTE=HopetonBrown;315597]The knife stuff reminded me of a scene from The Hunted. Looks like they did some consulting for the movie. I have a real dialed in friend who does knife stuff with them. Doesn't really look like somewhere I'd go for firearms training.


Tom was involved with the Hunted, the survival stuff came from The Tracker School and Tom Brown. There are stories there.

Cookie Monster

[EPF]

So,

1. Unverifiable history of amazing feats of bad ass-ery.

2. Secret fighting techniques only known to a small brotherhood who must be willing to undergo the tremendous hardship required for your approval.

3. Write about secret techniques of the system you sell trumping competition fighting skill ( you know, the kind that can be proved to work) because there is no "rule book" on Da Streetz.

3. Article on website declaring fitness is important to combat for everyone other than you because....see numbers 1 and 3.

4. Discount the need to cite verifiable military/police/fighting experience when it applies to your instructors, yet cite nebulous references to elite military/police customers for the secret system as justification for value of said system.



Seems legit......if by some remote chance this is valuable training, I can't imagine a less effective way to communicate that to interested parties. This stuff may be wonderful, but it reads like a spetznaz secret death system from a 1985 Soldier of Fortune.

[Gray222]

So,

1. Unverifiable history of amazing feats of bad ass-ery.

2. Secret fighting techniques only known to a small brotherhood who must be willing to undergo the tremendous hardship required for your approval.

3. Write about secret techniques of the system you sell trumping competition fighting skill ( you know, the kind that can be proved to work) because there is no "rule book" on Da Streetz.

3. Article on website declaring fitness is important to combat for everyone other than you because....see numbers 1 and 3.

4. Discount the need to cite verifiable military/police/fighting experience when it applies to your instructors, yet cite nebulous references to elite military/police customers for the secret system as justification for value of said system.



Seems legit......if by some remote chance this is valuable training, I can't imagine a less effective way to communicate that to interested parties. This stuff may be wonderful, but it reads like a spetznaz secret death system from a 1985 Soldier of Fortune.


So I guess I'll see you at one of the classes then?

[EPF]

So I guess I'll see you at one of the classes then?

Just as soon a you present some evidence as to why this is good instruction from a legitimate instructor, I'll be the first to sign up.

How many sheaths do I need?

[Gray222]

Just as soon a you present some evidence as to why this is good instruction from a legitimate instructor, I'll be the first to sign up.

How many sheaths do I need?

I do not want to turn this into a "cred's" pissing contest. All I will say is that I've attended dozens of classes, mostly LE/MIL-only (I don't do AAR's on those) and a bunch of open to public classes which I have done AAR's on. I try to keep my eyes and mind open to new instruction and techniques. I continuously find myself benchmarking certain aspects of instructors against that from STG.

It is all about the instruction formula that works for you. I do not go to a class to "feel good" about myself or do stuff I have done dozens of times just to have a range day. I go to learn and apply those skills in my daily life. Save for F2S's rifle classes, the most I have learned about pistol shooting and blade work has been through STG.

Your experience may differ.

[SLG]

I don't know Mr. Kier personally, but I started in Kali while in my teens, and know of him. Just to keep this thread on track and at the standard of discussion that PF should be at, I offer the following. I also bounced for about 3 weeks of my life, and can certainly attest to the number of fights that occur in the right seedy places. I doubt my three weeks were outliers in that regard, but since it was such a short time, anything is possible. I'm sure most cops can also verify that.

His training may or my not be for you, but he does or did legitimately train some of our nations finest warriors.

His pistol standards are not high by PF standards, but seem to be realistic and would certainly challenge most professional gunmen. Any standards are a nice change these days, when instructors act more like you are there to bask in their glory, rather than learn to fight (or shoot, or whatever).

Fighting with a handgun means different things to different people. A well rounded shotist should avail himself of the different schools of thought, as long as the instruction is legit and well done. As a for instance, I'm not a point shooter, but I do practice it occasionally, and I would love to train with someone like Lou Chiodo or Mike Conti.

I'm not current on my Kali these days, and don't personally consider it the way to go, but a well trained fighter is a well trained fighter, and some Kali guys can take and deliver a serious beating.

[EPF]

I do not want to turn this into a "cred's" pissing contest. All I will say is that I've attended dozens of classes, mostly LE/MIL-only (I don't do AAR's on those) and a bunch of open to public classes which I have done AAR's on. I try to keep my eyes and mind open to new instruction and techniques. I continuously find myself benchmarking certain aspects of instructors against that from STG.

It is all about the instruction formula that works for you. I do not go to a class to "feel good" about myself or do stuff I have done dozens of times just to have a range day. I go to learn and apply those skills in my daily life. Save for F2S's rifle classes, the most I have learned about pistol shooting and blade work has been through STG.

Your experience may differ.


My experience with training and instructors might very well be different.

After leaving the military in 2009 I have worked as a full time contract consultant to the Army, managing large scale combat skills training programs. I live in a world where I am required to develop training programs for both instructors and students and then statistically demonstrate the value of the training we provide to thousands of individuals. I endure outside audits routinely, and I value those criticisms as an opportunity to learn and improve. Even when my ego gets bruised, which is more often than I like to admit, I want to learn and improve.

Since that time I've attended, audited, or evaluated dozens of public and private combat skill classes outside our curriculum in an effort to determine the value those courses might add to our customers.

On my own time, I have also attended about a dozen of the public type classes we are discussing here. Those offered on this forum and others teaching carbine, blade, driving, pistol, and combatives taught by names familiar to most here. I attend those both for fun and personal development.

I actually appreciate your comments in this thread, and I don't want to turn this into anything. I'm reading this thread about STG because I'm always looking for the next emerging great training opportunity.

My post was meant to convey one thing. In my humble experience it's not difficult to objectively express why a course is valuable. I have yet to see any evidence presented here to show what makes this shooting course, or the system as a whole worth time. Further, when fantastic claims are made it's almost always BS, because awesome things are hard to keep secret. Smoke means fire, etc.

No personal disrespect to anyone. As the OP expressed it's difficult to figure out how to spend your training dollar when time is fixed and opportunities limited. It's frustrating trying to read the tea leaves and figure out where to train from the net or commercials. What works for SEAL team delta may not work for joe in the parking lot, or it might be the ticket. I simply am trying to determine whether this course is valuable for me or not, same as the OP. Whenever STG comes up, my interest is piqued but the conversation inevitably ends without a satisfactory answer to those questions.

[Cheap Shot]

I did two AAR's of the pistol 1.0 class

http://vdmsr.blogspot.com/2012/07/aar-warrior-pistol-10-tom-kier-may-2627.html

http://vdmsr.blogspot.com/2013/05/aar-warrior-pistol-10-tom-kier-april.html#axzz2SZrPL3OW

Check them out.



Student pistol standards for 1.0 class:

one shot from (concealment) draw on "A-zone" at 7 yards 1.5 seconds - could be higher though, I don't specifically remember since I never worried about it. - http://vdmsr.blogspot.com/2014/10/one-shot-from-concealment.html

Farnham drill, clean, in under 12 seconds - video of drill - http://vdmsr.blogspot.com/2014/09/farnham-drill-stg-warrior-pistol-class.html

Hostage head shot target drill, clean, in under 12 seconds - video of drill(s) - http://vdmsr.blogspot.com/2015/02/range-report.html

200 drill - 150 or better

700 drill - 550 or better

May be one or two more that I do not remember, but that's the gist of it. The accuracy drills are the most difficult for people, instructor standards are much difficult and have to be done on demand.



Just that it's a mindset thing. Like the thread started here on PF about a member having issues with his family members lacking mindset to carry a firearm or even own one. There is more to just "being aware" and more to the whole process of simply stating what mindset is and how to magically attain it. Tom does an excellent mindset talk and it is second to none. Not just blow smoke here, those who have taken the time to sit down with him and listen to what he has to say on the matter either get the information they are looking for verbalized or they are overwhelmed showing their weakness.

Great info voodoo. Appreciate your effort and patience

Many thanks

[TGS]

Yep, I am one of those people.

The shortest one I've heard is 30 minutes.

So If you expect me to type out 30 minutes worth of info, you are going to be disappointed.

Show up to a class and see for yourself. I am just passing on first hand info.

The point wasn't to get you to type out 30 minutes worth of info.

The whole act of "too hard core, but you have to show up to find out.....because mystery!" is probably the biggest bullshit flag I've ever encountered in my life. I think most anyone here would agree......even you I hope would agree, if you've got as much training experience as you claim.

Like EPF said, Mr. Kier could very well be a great instructor to learn some valuable things from....and given SLG's input (and knowing something or two about SLG himself), I'm sure he is. But this is a god-awful way to communicate the legitimacy of an instructor, and you're not doing him any favors.

Mr. Kier, good on you for coming to the forum to at least make a statement. Thanks.

[Pup town]

My post was meant to convey one thing. In my humble experience it's not difficult to objectively express why a course is valuable. I have yet to see any evidence presented here to show what makes this shooting course, or the system as a whole worth time. Further, when fantastic claims are made it's almost always BS, because awesome things are hard to keep secret. Smoke means fire, etc.

No personal disrespect to anyone. As the OP expressed it's difficult to figure out how to spend your training dollar when time is fixed and opportunities limited. It's frustrating trying to read the tea leaves and figure out where to train from the net or commercials. What works for SEAL team delta may not work for joe in the parking lot, or it might be the ticket. I simply am trying to determine whether this course is valuable for me or not, same as the OP. Whenever STG comes up, my interest is piqued but the conversation inevitably ends without a satisfactory answer to those questions.

This post captures how I feel, as well. I'm interested in STG (obviously), but I'm turned off when the discussion turns to "If you don't get it, you don't get it. If you can't handle that, then this training isn't for you and it probably means your ego can't handle it and you aren't serious about self defense. We aren't going to tell you our bios (except for Kier's, and we aren't even going to say if he's teaching your particular class.)"

I also question how a FMA group (with a huge emphasis on knives, in a martial art that is notoriously difficult to pressure test) morphed into a shooting school. (Of course, if the instructors bios were published, it might explain that they have a background in something that explains how they are experts in firearms instruction. I don't know.)

I'm still curious and appreciate everyone's comments.

[Gray222]

@TGS I dont know what info you wanted or expected me to post.

Sure, an instructors bio would be something to give an impression. Issue with that is if a good chunk of that bio needs to be redacted then it shouldnt be posted to begin with. Thats all ill say about that.

If you are curious, show up to a class, it is very eye opening.

[Pup town]

Sure, an instructors bio would be something to give an impression. Issue with that is if a good chunk of that bio needs to be redacted then it shouldnt be posted to begin with. Thats all ill say about that.

If you are curious, show up to a class, it is very eye opening.

So, just to be clear, the instructors' bio shouldn't be published because they'd have to be heavily redacted for some unmentionable reason. (Should I presume that's because they are so secret squirrel? Witness protection program? Fugitives?)

But yet if you pay your money (like you did), you can go to a class and presumably be let in on the secret (like you were.).

Ooookay.

-------

[41magfan]

I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but when I hear a sales pitch that makes claim to have uncovered some new science or methodology - based on some never before conducted analysis or research - founded on some newly discovered dynamic of human conflict - my BS detector starts going off ...... LOUDLY!

Additionally, I don't care if the guy serving that Kool-Aid claims to have killed Osama with a blow-gun .... BS is still just BS.

[LittleLebowski]

So, just to be clear, the instructors' bio shouldn't be published because they'd have to be heavily redacted for some unmentionable reason. (Should I presume that's because they are so secret squirrel? Witness protection program? Fugitives?)

But yet if you pay your money (like you did), you can go to a class and presumably be let in on the secret (like you were.).

Ooookay.

-------

I don't know the answer to your question but maybe voodoo man is referring to the quality of the class? Two people I know personally and respect (voodoo man and SLG) have weighed in on different parts of the STG story so I'm not going to question what they spoke of. However, I'm in SLG's camp and don't plan on training with STG.

[MVS]

It is good to see a thread like this not get out of control. There are soooo many training schools out there that are not vetted. Some may be great and others not so much. I have trained with numerous instructors, some nationally recognized and some not. Most had something to offer. I think the reason for me not having a bad experience is that I researched all of them before taking a class. Based only on what I saw from STG's presentation I would not train with them. That doesn't mean they are not a great training school though. 40+ classes into my self defense rebirth and I am getting a little more picky.

[Pup town]

I don't know the answer to your question but maybe voodoo man is referring to the quality of the class? Two people I know personally and respect (voodoo man and SLG) have weighed in on different parts of the STG story so I'm not going to question what they spoke of. However, I'm in SLG's camp and don't plan on training with STG.

I also took Voodoo man's "eye opening" comment to refer to the quality of the class and not that the instructor's bios are revealed or eye opening.

I was only referring to his second paragraph in which he says the bios are too secret to be published (which no one else has said). Yet he at least learned the fact that the bios are too secret somehow, presumably at class. (Maybe he doesn't know the instructors' backgrounds. Maybe he was just told that the bios can't be published without being heavily redacted. Or maybe nothing is explained at a class at the instructors' bios are as big of a mystery to the students as they are to us.)

In a time in which I've seen active duty 18 series teaching weekend classes, and former JSOC guys are teaching and very open about their background, I find the "too secret' part eyebrow raising, especially since you can find plenty of photos of the STG cadre online.

[BehindBlueI's]

Heh. I'm too secret squirrel to give a bio. Nobody is asking where you were when and what you did. If you can't say what agency, what position, what MOS, etc because it would have to be heavily redacted I simply don't believe you. Might as well tell me you were a drummer boy in 'Nam.

[LittleLebowski]

In a time in which I've seen active duty 18 series teaching weekend classes, and former JSOC guys are teaching and very open about their background, I find the "too secret' part eyebrow raising, especially since you can find plenty of photos of the STG cadre online.

Please refer to SLG's post, specifically this part:


His training may or my not be for you, but he does legitimately train some of our nations finest warriors. That isn't up for debate.

NDAs are probably in place, gents. This forum not the place to question the integrity of our SMEs. Considering a that a very well known NSW trainer (Kyle Defoor) is working hand in hand with STG, I don't think it's a great leap to think that STG indeed has training contracts they cannot speak of.

[Thomas Kier]

So,

1. Unverifiable history of amazing feats of bad ass-ery.

2. Secret fighting techniques only known to a small brotherhood who must be willing to undergo the tremendous hardship required for your approval.

3. Write about secret techniques of the system you sell trumping competition fighting skill ( you know, the kind that can be proved to work) because there is no "rule book" on Da Streetz.

3. Article on website declaring fitness is important to combat for everyone other than you because....see numbers 1 and 3.

4. Discount the need to cite verifiable military/police/fighting experience when it applies to your instructors, yet cite nebulous references to elite military/police customers for the secret system as justification for value of said system.



Seems legit......if by some remote chance this is valuable training, I can't imagine a less effective way to communicate that to interested parties. This stuff may be wonderful, but it reads like a spetznaz secret death system from a 1985 Soldier of Fortune.

EPF,

I don't even know what you are talking about ?
What secret fighting system?
What amazing feats of bad ass-ery?

You seem overly angry about nothing. Do we know each other that you would publicly attack me, or what we do?
Why? As far as I know I have not done anything to you. But let me apologize if I have with out knowing.

Competition fighting skills are great, but they are designed for competition. Of course there are many cross over benefits from competition training, but all of them need to be looked at from a validity standpoint for real life application. This of course is understood by numerous tactical trainers so I'm sure you realize what I'm saying and just wanted to spin it in order to make it seem unsound.

I won't list the units or agencies we train, because when you start doing that you will soon loose that business, and that is our primary business. But I can say we train the very best our military has to offer. We have been training them for over ten years. Some of our instructors after retiring from those places come and work with us, if you want to grill them about their backgrounds it would be great to watch, you should come to a class just for that, but really I'm joking about that, I don't think the classes are for you.

I'm really not interested in open enrollment classes, we really do them for friends and so our younger instructors can get reps teaching material. Open enrollment tends to fill up with Internet Warriors, pissy bloggers, gun buffs and wannabe Former Action Guys. I'm not saying that anyone here is in those catagories, as I said before I have respect for all of you on this forum as I don't really know anything to contradict that belief. I don't know any of you personally and most don't even go by your real names, so I have nothing bad to say about anyone here. And I would like to say it is a great thing to vet and research people out there teaching, there are bad instructors out there, the next step is come out to the range with us and burn some good reps.

Thanks,
Thomas Kier

[BaiHu]

I'm happy Mr Kier chimed in as well as the rest of you. The fight thing came off as odd even though I could do the math of even a fight a week for 10 years. I just thought "500 fights" needed a bit more definition. I thank all of you for the input.

[Pup town]

Please refer to SLG's post, specifically this part:



NDAs are probably in place, gents. This forum not the place to question the integrity of our SMEs. Considering a that a very well known NSW trainer (Kyle Defoor) is working hand in hand with STG, I don't think it's a great leap to think that STG indeed has training contracts they cannot speak of.

Please show me where I questioned who they were teaching. I'm questioning Voodoo mans comment that any bios of the instructors would have to have a big chunk redacted.

No SME's vaunted integrity has been questioned.

[Cheap Shot]

I'm just thankful pup town has recovered from his recent injury and is back training:cool:

[LittleLebowski]

Please show me where I questioned who they were teaching. I'm questioning Voodoo mans comment that any bios of the instructors would have to have a big chunk redacted.

No SME's vaunted integrity has been questioned.

Copy,my apologies.

[EPF]

EPF,

I don't even know what you are talking about ?
What secret fighting system?
What amazing feats of bad ass-ery?

You seem overly angry about nothing. Do we know each other that you would publicly attack me, or what we do?
Why? As far as I know I have not done anything to you. But let me apologize if I have with out knowing.

Competition fighting skills are great, but they are designed for competition. Of course there are many cross over benefits from competition training, but all of them need to be looked at from a validity standpoint for real life application. This of course is understood by numerous tactical trainers so I'm sure you realize what I'm saying and just wanted to spin it in order to make it seem unsound.

I won't list the units or agencies we train, because when you start doing that you will soon loose that business, and that is our primary business. But I can say we train the very best our military has to offer. We have been training them for over ten years. Some of our instructors after retiring from those places come and work with us, if you want to grill them about their backgrounds it would be great to watch, you should come to a class just for that, but really I'm joking about that, I don't think the classes are for you.

I'm really not interested in open enrollment classes, we really do them for friends and so our younger instructors can get reps teaching material. Open enrollment tends to fill up with Internet Warriors, pissy bloggers, gun buffs and wannabe Former Action Guys. I'm not saying that anyone here is in those catagories, as I said before I have respect for all of you on this forum as I don't really know anything to contradict that belief. I don't know any of you personally and most don't even go by your real names, so I have nothing bad to say about anyone here. And I would like to say it is a great thing to vet and research people out there teaching, there are bad instructors out there, the next step is come out to the range with us and burn some good reps.

Thanks,
Thomas Kier

Mr Kier- thanks for commenting.

With respect,

I think if you re-read my post you will see what I criticized was your introduction of the idea that you train special people. Seemingly as verification of the value of your training, with the expectation that people take it at face value. Luckily an SME was available to lend his credibility. If you can't disclose it, why discuss it in this context at all?

Now that it's been established as true, does WHO you teach validate WHAT you teach? What other information about the program or its instructors is necessary for a student to determine if the course is relevant to them?

I don't know of any measure by which 500 street fights with no losses is not bad ass. Sorry, but I've got nothing to add there.

Ok, maybe secret system was unfair, but a quick read through the posts here show I'm not the only one who is unfamiliar with your system or its standards. I think the members here have an above average knowledge of the training industry...but lots of questions. So not secret but....obscure maybe?

If it's proprietary, I get that, but that invites these very kind of threads. In that case, I'd be surprised to hear that you don't get these questions all the time from intellectually curios people. So I wouldn't think it would offend you.

I never said you weren't legit. I said the marketing of it gets caught in the BS filters one develops by spending enough time around the martial arts/shooting/defensive/guru community. I am curious as to why you would think the classes are not for me? Is there some physicality I lack? Some mindset flaw you've been able to diagnose? Understanding how you determine who it's for might help others decide for themselves.

I personally would find it sad if something of value missed its natural audience by coming off wrong. You may not care about that, since you've stated your intention to focus on contract gigs rather than open enrollment.

Either way, good luck

[JodyH]

Paul Castle taught CAR to a lot of tier 1 groups... being tier 1 doesn't guarantee you'll never get taken in by a bullshitter.

[SLG]

Couldn't agree more. I realize that my "not for debate" comment might not have come across as I intended. My only point was that claims of STG teaching elite soldiers (or however it was phrased) was accurate.

[Pup town]

I'm really not interested in open enrollment classes, we really do them for friends and so our younger instructors can get reps teaching material. Open enrollment tends to fill up with Internet Warriors, pissy bloggers, gun buffs and wannabe Former Action Guys.

I suppose it's good you aren't interested in open enrollment classes, because if you keep disparaging your open enrollment clients like this you soon won't have enough to fill a class. This sentence, more than anything else anyone says about STG, makes me hesitant to give you a single penny.

(Of course, if you want to get your younger instructors more reps but not have to lower yourself to interact with the common folk, you could hold classes for just LE/MIL that are paying out of their own pocket. A lot of people here fall in that category.)

[Thomas Kier]

I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but when I hear a sales pitch that makes claim to have uncovered some new science or methodology - based on some never before conducted analysis or research - founded on some newly discovered dynamic of human conflict - my BS detector starts going off ...... LOUDLY!

Additionally, I don't care if the guy serving that Kool-Aid claims to have killed Osama with a blow-gun .... BS is still just BS.

I agree with you 100% 41magfan.

But allow me to explain.
We have not uncovered new science or claimed never before conducted analysis. There is nothing new under the sun, but there are things forgotten and misunderstood. And if you think you or anyone else knows it all, you are confused, friend.

We have developed our own curricula, but it is not way outside the box or unrecognizable. We look at any training with all the science and technology which is available to us, scientific reason and practical application is what we strive for. Many drills we have developed over the years, but there are just as many we have taken from other sources always giving credit, sometimes we run them as is or we make slight variations because we see a way to enhance it. Much of the continued development is due to the great shooters we work with on a daily basis and have for years.

We start off with basic marksmanship and weapon manipulation, but we look at this all within a logical formula and training progression. There are many schools out there which build training scars because of bad reps, they do this unconsciously of course, but it still happens. The reason for this is most instructors out there have not been trained as instructors and are sometimes unaware of the most efficient way to transfer knowledge.

"The best way to learn boxing is not from a boxer, it's from a boxing coach, and not all coaches are equally good"

Nothing we talk about during a class will be something you have not heard before, but the way we explain it may be. We at the same time do not want to tell anyone what to think, but we feel strongly on the way to think. Thought process and how to analyze is part of the methodology. Therefore everything taught in the class will be explained within that framework, the "why" not just the "how".

The first level class 1.0 is something everyone would be familiar with marksmanship and weapon handling and mindset. But we go into the why and when of it all.

The second level 2.0 is beginning integration and a concealed carry class. We look at gear, carry options, target recognition and discrimination along with with mindset and Legal concerns.

The third level 3.0 - 5.0 would be a departure from what is normally taught, in that it is highly dynamic as far as movement and all drills can be integrated with striking, grappling and blade work as well as shooting. At 3.0 and above there is over 50% Force on Force with simunition, much of it leaving the square range and entering a scenario based training model. Scenarios would include street crime, fighting in transitional space and working inside buildings as individuals and teams. All these classes are 5 days long.

We don't teach the same material to the open enrollment that we do for our Mil or Gov clients in fact we don't ever teach exactly the same material, every course is customized to the audience in some way.

I see there are a few out there with some opposing views or still want to hear how many of our instructors have tactical backgrounds. The answer is all of them. Naval Special Warfare, Army Special Forces, some are publicly well known and also run their own companies like Kyle Defoor, Bill Rapier and Dom Raso. Others are less well known publicly but very well known within the community of operators. Almost all of our instructors are independent contractors and work with us from contract to contract.

I hope this finally clears things up, I'm not trying to be super secret there is no reason to be. Also I'm not ever sure why I'm spending the time to do this explanation, I guess it's that I have some time right now and really I feel like we have been misunderstood and I guess at some level I want to be understood.

Thanks

[Thomas Kier]

I suppose it's good you aren't interested in open enrollment classes, because if you keep disparaging your open enrollment clients like this you soon won't have enough to fill a class. This sentence, more than anything else anyone says about STG, makes me hesitant to give you a single penny.

(Of course, if you want to get your younger instructors more reps but not have to lower yourself to interact with the common folk, you could hold classes for just LE/MIL that are paying out of their own pocket. A lot of people here fall in that category.)


I don't have active military pay out of their own pockets to train, if uncle Sam won't pay, they train for free.

I don't care about open enrollment, mostly thin skinned, crybaby penny pinchers, who over estimate their ability to shoot.
I say these things to discourage certain type from coming to classes, if you feel I'm talking about you, then don't come.

If not, lets do some training. I enjoy teaching and it is good instructor development, but from a business standpoint, open enrollment means nothing.

I hope this clears things up Pup.

Thanks

[JodyH]

Class act.

[HopetonBrown]

I'm really not interested in open enrollment classes, we really do them for friends and so our younger instructors can get reps teaching material. Open enrollment tends to fill up with Internet Warriors, pissy bloggers, gun buffs and wannabe Former Action Guys.



I don't care about open enrollment, mostly thin skinned, crybaby penny pinchers, who over estimate their ability to shoot.
I say these things to discourage certain type from coming to classes, if you feel I'm talking about you, then don't come.

If not, lets do some training. I enjoy teaching and it is good instructor development, but from a business standpoint, open enrollment means nothing.


I took a class with Vickers, he said he liked open enrollment. He said because they're there on their own dime, on their own time, with their own ammo, so they are often very motivated students. He said sometimes the LE/MIL guys are either too cool for school, or just would rather be someplace else.

[Eyesquared]

I took a class with Vickers, he said he liked open enrollment. He said because they're there on their own time, on their own time, with their own ammo, so they are often good students. He said sometimes the LE/MIL guys are either too cool for school, or just would rather be someplace else.

I don't think you need to try and convince Mr. Kier that open enrollment is worth teaching. He obviously has a strong opinion which he has expressed very clearly here.

[HopetonBrown]

I don't think you need to try and convince Mr. Kier that open enrollment is worth teaching. He obviously has a strong opinion which he has expressed very clearly here.

I'm not trying to do anything with Mr. Kier, I'm sharing the opinion of another instructor about the subject of open enrollment.

[LittleLebowski]

I see there are a few out there with some opposing views or still want to hear how many of our instructors have tactical backgrounds. The answer is all of them.

Are you able to share with us the details of your own tactical background or do you work for STG purely in an administrative role?

[SLG]

I don't agree with Mr. Kier's take on open enrollment classes, but I totally get where he's coming from.

When you teach shooting classes, it is not as obvious, but when you teach fighting classes, elite military are a joy to work with compared to your average civilian. However, I don't imagine that your average civilian would sign up for an advanced STG class, nor for most of Southnarc's classes. Maybe SN will chime in, but I imagine that most of his students come prepared to get uncomfortable and to sustain small injuries.

Either way, I'm sure the ECQC crowd is a much smaller market segment than the shooting school crowd, which I think makes the point.

[Cheap Shot]

Are you able to share with us the details of your own tactical background or do you work for STG purely in an administrative role?

Given the info thats been previously posted on this thread and the STG info posted on the interwebs the question above seems very disingenious.

[LittleLebowski]

Given the info thats been previously posted on this thread and the STG info posted on the interwebs the question above seems very disingenious.

It's an honest question given his posted information and statements on STG instructors.

[Cheap Shot]

Thanks and my apologies.

[LittleLebowski]

Thanks and my apologies.

Absolutely no worries, dude.

[StraitR]

Class act.


This was my thought after his initial posting, and it's been confirmed in each response.

[Mjolnir]

FFS, people!

Either accept what he says or don't. This thread reeks of HKPro and AR15.com!

I'll spend my money and time and I'll determine if it's worthy. May I suggest others do likewise or is that asking too much?


-------------------------------------
"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."

[Eyesquared]

FFS, people!

Either accept what he says or don't. This thread reeks of HKPro and AR15.com!

I'll spend my money and time and I'll determine if it's worthy. May I suggest others do likewise or is that asking too much?


-------------------------------------
"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."

With all due respect, not all of us have that much time or money to try out different instructors. I don't understand how trying to do your due diligence "reeks of HKPro and AR15.com"

[Mjolnir]

SIRT, I hear you, brother. It's just the bickering-like manner "muddies the water". I had not heard of these guys before and with all the back and forth "jabs" I still don't know what to think. Some of the concerns could have been sent via PM (not saying your posts) that way an outsider would not come in and pause.

I'll be seeing Southnarc later this year as he's a friend of two friends of mine and I've read positive reviews and I like what he teaches.


-------------------------------------
"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."

[Wannabe a be]

Tom Kier has spent a lifetime teaching, training and mentoring warriors. He won't tell you that he not only trains elite tier 1 units but they continue to have him and the STG instructors back time and time again. This has been on going since the beginning of the war. The operators are the ones that choose to have them return to teach and mentor them. The war on terror has been a proving ground for his and STG's techniques and training that translates and manifests itself in their civilian courses.

However... most on this forum have already made up their minds and aren't going to get it no matter what people that know say.

If they were that guy that could take that info and apply it

They wouldn't be that guy that needed to hear it in the first place!

[MDS]

Tom Kier has spent a lifetime teaching, training and mentoring warriors. He won't tell you that he not only trains elite tier 1 units but they continue to have him and the STG instructors back time and time again. This has been on going since the beginning of the war. The operators are the ones that choose to have them return to teach and mentor them. The war on terror has been a proving ground for his and STG's techniques and training that translates and manifests itself in their civilian courses.

However... most on this forum have already made up their minds and aren't going to get it no matter what people that know say.

If they were that guy that could take that info and apply it

They wouldn't be that guy that needed to hear it in the first place!

Dude, you were doing fine until the last part. I can think of a million things "people that know" could say to change a lot of minds here. Folks have asked reasonable questions, and for myself I can tell you that some up-front transparency would go a long way on that front, regardless of the answer.

Importantly, since you're also making negative generalizations about people on this forum: what exactly is wrong with wanting to know some details about a product or service before spending time and money on it? How does that make one ineligible to benefit from STG's training?

[GJM]

To the STG guys, is this representative of what you are teaching in the handgun area?

Warrior 2.0 Pistol

http://youtu.be/x3UfEa_QFBo

[Thomas Kier]

It is a video of students doing various drills during a 2.0 class.

[Thomas Kier]

Dude, you were doing fine until the last part. I can think of a million things "people that know" could say to change a lot of minds here. Folks have asked reasonable questions, and for myself I can tell you that some up-front transparency would go a long way on that front, regardless of the answer.

Importantly, since you're also making negative generalizations about people on this forum: what exactly is wrong with wanting to know some details about a product or service before spending time and money on it? How does that make one ineligible to benefit from STG's training?

What would you like to know? I'll do my best to answer any questions you may have.

[DamonL]

I have not taken any training with Tom Kier or STG.

I have taken a seminar with Chris Sayoc and studied Sayoc Kali under one of his certified instructors for a short time.

I can endorse the knife training I received. It is some of the best knife training available. If I had an opportunity to take a class from Tom I would. Especially if it involved gun and knife integrated training. I do not have any experience with the STG firearms program and cannot speak to that. I would probably be hesitant myself to spend money on a strictly gun class from STG, since I would want to tap their expertise in knife combatives.

[Wannabe a be]

Dude, you were doing fine until the last part. I can think of a million things "people that know" could say to change a lot of minds here. Folks have asked reasonable questions, and for myself I can tell you that some up-front transparency would go a long way on that front, regardless of the answer.

Importantly, since you're also making negative generalizations about people on this forum: what exactly is wrong with wanting to know some details about a product or service before spending time and money on it? How does that make one ineligible to benefit from STG's training?

You called me "Dude" Hahahahahahahah

[BehindBlueI's]

What would you like to know? I'll do my best to answer any questions you may have.

With the understanding I don't know you from Adam, and of course the opposite is true, I'd ask the following:

1) What are the backgrounds for your instructors.
2) Are your techniques solely geared toward "the elite"
3) Who are the 'open enrollment' classes geared toward?
4) How do I know which class is right for me?
5) Is there any accountability? In other words, objectively what can you do for me and what sort of improvements should I see for my training time and dollar if I do my part?

I'm LEO with a large department, and I'm also a penny pincher. I am not thin skinned, and I'm pretty honest about my shooting ability. I've been extremely lucky in that my department has a great range staff and also does not suffer from "not invented here syndrome" and is willing to bring in outside instructors to do train the trainer events. We've had some tip of the spear big name guys come to our range, and we've (collective we) learned something from everyone of them. However some of what they teach would decrease our odds of survival. Why? Well, if your tactics assume you have a squad of highly trained riflemen to assist you they sometimes don't translate well to the average cop with average shooting skills and zero backup when it matters. These guys were fantastic riflemen. I am not, and I was the "honor grad" for my patrol rifle school. I could not implement some of the things they advocate, and others would expose me to danger for far longer than it would them because of the gap in skills and the availability of backup. So, that's why I'd want to know the above before considering training with you or with anyone.

Taking civilian classes "blind" is tough, in my mind. I actually appreciate some level of testing requirements. Else, your "intermediate" may be the other guys "basic" or "expert" or WTF knows what. I hate to spend money and realize I'm the best shooter in the class and am learning very little. I also would hate to be the guy who shows up and is completely not at the level required to get the lessons out of the class (see above). Again, I can get something from everyone, from competition shooter to tip of the spear "operator" types (sorry, operators are still nice ladies who connect phone calls for you in my mind) types. I tend to get the most out of LE background instructors though for the obvious reasons.

[Shellback]

I see there are a few out there with some opposing views or still want to hear how many of our instructors have tactical backgrounds. The answer is all of them. Naval Special Warfare, Army Special Forces, some are publicly well known and also run their own companies like Kyle Defoor, Bill Rapier and Dom Raso...

I'd take a class from any one of those guys. Where do you guys train out of? Is it a single location type deal or are you a traveling outfit as well?

[Irelander]

I have respect for Kyle Defoor and his training. I would take a class from him or anyone he was affiliated with.

[MDS]

What would you like to know? I'll do my best to answer any questions you may have.

Awesome, thanks! I think the vagueness in my mind would be cleared up by some concrete performance goals or requirements for the classes. For pistol classes, and this is just a random example to illustrate what I mean, but if you could say "Well, in Pistol 1.0 there's no prerequisite, it's a start-from-zero class. Since Pistol 2.0 builds on basic marksmanship you should really have the fundamentals down to where you can pass the 10-10-10 drill with all hits in the black. Since Pistol 3.0 starts to integrate the pistol into scenarios you'll struggle to keep up without such-and-such a minimum level of performance with the draw and reloads and etc etc etc."

I understand the real answer might not be that simple, but anything you could provide along those lines for the various classes would go a long way to help me see through what, in my ignorance about your program, and with respect, but so far sounds like pretty generic claims. It would help explain how the skills taught in one class build into the skills taught on another. I'm never going to know what these classes are really like until I take them, I know. But hopefully my rambling here is coherent enough to explain the kind of concrete info that would help me decide how to prioritize my limited training time...


You called me "Dude" Hahahahahahahah

This thread has been kept on track because the participants have acted like grown ups. Mr. Kier is on here trying to explain his classes to an audience that isn't exactly adulating all the time. That would be worthy of respect, of a modicum of maturity, even if this were the sort of place where childish antics were normally tolerated. So I'll ask you once: please post questions and comments that contribute to the discussion, or refrain from posting. Feel free to PM me with any questions if this request isn't clear.

[LittleLebowski]

Mr. Kier, what is the class fee for your open enrollment pistol classes? I looked on your website but didn't see it mentioned anywhere.

Also, class dates and locations?

[Gray222]

Also, class dates and locations?
http://www.sayoctactical.com/?page_id=1484

[LittleLebowski]

http://www.sayoctactical.com/?page_id=1484

Not a single one of the pistol class link had class dates nor times.

[Gray222]

Not a single one of the pistol class link had class dates nor times.

It says what days they are. Times will be send via email to registered students...im assuming.

[LittleLebowski]

It says what days they are. Times will be send via email to registered students...im assuming.

Locations?

[Shellback]

Locations?

That was my question earlier... Sign up, pay up, but where do you show up?

[Pup town]

I see there are a few out there with some opposing views or still want to hear how many of our instructors have tactical backgrounds. The answer is all of them. Naval Special Warfare, Army Special Forces, some are publicly well known and also run their own companies like Kyle Defoor, Bill Rapier and Dom Raso. Others are less well known publicly but very well known within the community of operators. Almost all of our instructors are independent contractors and work with us from contract to contract.

I hope this finally clears things up, I'm not trying to be super secret there is no reason to be.



Really? All have tactical backgrounds? (I have a feeling someone will want to argue about the definition of “tactical”)

Here are the Sayoc Tactical Group instructors, according to Matt Campbell (whose photo is all over the Sayoctactical.com page.)

https://scontent-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/1620813_657122850996457_1989774140_n.jpg?oh=66ba21 019fe408147a11163b3e09a1ae&oe=55D5C2D6


Matt Campbell (fourth from right)
http://forgefighting.com/
https://www.linkedin.com/pub/matt-campbell/38/37a/564
No tactical background that he lists. Guys running martial arts studios usually aren’t quiet about any ‘tactical’ background they might have. If you are going to tell me his background is super secret and can't be revealed, please explain why his Facebook page isn't private. Awesome beard, though.

https://scontent-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/307018_251981991510547_594955512_n.jpg?oh=821bafe7 07b972a33b33e3047ea3fd00&oe=55DAA440
Here is is with aluminum knives while he was still working on the beard.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xtp1/v/t1.0-9/10434318_835947456415307_8063905257884070545_n.jpg ?oh=e9fa400daa5fcbfe37ba1c286ab303aa&oe=55E1D1A2&__gda__=1440111252_0bf4c4475a8c55e30ff477f74113817 7
Before and after photo.




Justin “Master Chim” Garcia (third from right in the instructor photo) – he’s a legit badass BJJ blackbelt, but what’s his tactical background? He doesn't have one.
http://www.junglegymbronx.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/testimonial2.jpg
Here he is on the left giving off typical “it’s all good” Brazilian Jiu Jitsu vibe.

http://www.thepressureproject.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/MC_PressureProject.jpg
Here is after growing out his beard and looking mean.

Kelly Alwood – (fourth from left in the instructor photo) - yeah, he has a ‘tactical’ background. He’s also a complete fraud.

http://www.jprifles.com/document_images/121.jpg

https://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=531873 Here he is being taken down by “Team Sergeant” at Professionalsoldiers.com
We also are in possession of Kelly Alwood's military records, or should I say "Private" Kelly Alwood's official military record. How both of you were "discharged" as "privates" is beyond me. I'd sure like to see Kelly's resume for his contracting jobs, especially the military "experience" part........ And I'm sure Kelly can and will produce his US Army "Sniper" school diploma, you know the sniper school he posted on the internet. How did Kelly go to Army Sniper school and he spent less than one year in the US Army?????? And just how do you spend less than one year in the Army? I didn't realize there was an enlistment for less than three years?
He also lies about being a SOF SERE instructor.

John Perrings?

He is a Sayoc Tactical Group instructor under Tuhon Tom Kier. He has instructed edged weapons combatives and awareness to military and law enforcement including US Special Operations Forces, Federal and Local Law Enforcement agencies, as well as private security contractors. John is also part of the Sayoc Combat Choreography group under Tuhon Rafael Kayanan (The Hunted, Confessions of a Dangerous Mind, Non Stop), working on fight-design for entertainment projects such as NCIS: Los Angeles.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnperrings (No tactical background, unless being an ‘accounts manager’ is tactical.)
https://media.licdn.com/mpr/mpr/shrinknp_400_400/p/1/000/10d/174/2a66733.jpg Here’s his clean cut linkedin photo
http://sayocnorcal.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/JP_mitts_Med-300x251.jpg Here he is working on the Sayoc Tactical Group beard. He’ll get there.

Sean Brandt – What’s his tactical background?

http://tumabak.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/IMG_2192.jpg That's him on the left.

Guro (teacher) Sean Brandt is a certified instructor in Sayoc Kali (instructor list) and Atienza Kali (instructor list). He is proud to have trained under Pamana Tuhon Chris Sayoc, tracing his lineage through Tuhon Tom Kier and Tuhon Carl Atienza.
Sean Brandt’s martial arts journey began in childhood. In college, he took up martial arts in earnest, training in several styles and spending Friday nights not partying, but rather at open sparring sessions. After graduating, he continued to progress in his training, with a focus on combat sports, because of their ability to be tested in competition – culminating in winning an amateur MMA fight. Realizing the limitations of this training on “the street,” he sought practical and effective training for where there are no rules – and jujutsu provided just that. That teacher referred him to a firing range for firearms training and to Filipino martial arts for knife and stick training. So he began to train in Sayoc Kali at the Butohan, and later, Atienza Kali. These systems – based on tribal, warrior arts proved to be a homecoming – and are his way of life. He is proud to be part of this katipunan ng kalis, or brotherhood of the blade.
Along his journey, he was promoted to three-stripe purple belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu by Mestre Sergio “Bolao” Souza and earned his Muay Thai shorts from Master Bob Karmel (@ Best Muay Thai). He also earned black belts in traditional Japanese arts of Aikido and Shinowara-Ryu Jujutsu.
He has studied the following styles (in chronological order):
Shotokan Karate, Wrestling, Shaolin Kung Fu, Aikido, Tai Chi, Judo, Yamashita Bojutsu, Muso Jikiden Eishen Ryu Iaido, Tae Kwon Do, Boxing, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (BJJ), Submission Grappling, Wing Chun Kung Fu, Muay Thai, Shinowara-Ryu Jujutsu, Sayoc Kali, Silat, and Atienza Kali.

As an instructor for Sayoc Tactical Group, he has helped teach edged weapons to law enforcement and military, including personnel from various local and federal law enforcement agencies and the US Special Operations Command.

Nick Sacoulas No tactical background

https://sayoc.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/6EDAE121-83B8-414B-B9A4-BFF20AA34ABB-300x300.jpg (needs to work on the beard)


http://newenglandfma.com/about/

Guro Nick has been training in martial arts since 1992 beginning with Tae Kwon Do under Master Richard Higgins. In 2000 he was introduced to Filipino martial arts by Guro Steve Lefebvre and attended his first Sayoc Sama Sama. In 2007 he became a personal student of Tuhon Carl Atienza and in 2012 he became a personal student of Pamana Tuhon Sayoc traveling to train with him once a month.
Guro Nick works as a medical professional currently and continues to improve his skill and working knowledge of medical management/First aid, Firearms use and tactics,personal safety/security, and wilderness survival.
Guro Nick is a member of the Sayoc Tactical Group which specializes in teaching and training military and LEO groups. Some of these groups include US Army Special Forces, US Navy SEALs, and various state and federal S.W.A.T teams.


Finally, Thomas Kier - No tactical background.

Fair disclosure - I found one Sayoc Tactical Instructor that I will say that I don't know if he has a tactical background. Jason "J.D." Wolfe. He may or may not.

[Shellback]

Interesting stuff.

[HopetonBrown]

I could never be a STG instructor; I can't grow a beard.

[Gray222]

Whats the bio of the guy with the blurred face?

Since hes an STG instructor too.

[Pup town]

Whats the bio of the guy with the blurred face?

Since hes an STG instructor too.

I dunno. If anyone cared, I guess they could take a couple of classes like you did and find out.

[Gray222]

I dunno. If anyone cared, I guess they could take a couple of classes like you did and find out.

So you dont care?

Why start the thread then?

Sounds like someone is trying to make waves.

[Pup town]

So you dont care?

Why start the thread then?

Sounds like someone is trying to make waves.

I don't care because I've already proven to my satisfaction that Kier wasn't truthful when he said all STG instructors have a tactical background. (I'll quote him again " I see there are a few out there with some opposing views or still want to hear how many of our instructors have tactical backgrounds. The answer is all of them. Naval Special Warfare, Army Special Forces..."). That 1 out of thirteen may be a ninja isn't relevant to me anymore.

I didn't start the thread with the intention of baiting Kier into lying about his instructors' backgrounds and then publicly proving him wrong. It just happened that way.

[Eyesquared]

So you dont care?

Why start the thread then?

Sounds like someone is trying to make waves.

With all due respect, it sounds to me like Mr. Kier has been less than forthright. There is a big difference between saying all the instructors have tactical backgrounds and saying that some of them do. If one guy is a super tactical Navy SEAL commando and some guys have no tactical background, it doesn't somehow average out into everyone having a tactical background. I'm sure Sayoc offers wonderful instruction. But I can't understand employing someone who's made false claims about his military service, nor can I understand some of the contradictions with Mr. Kier's earlier statements.

[Gray222]

What does "tactical background" mean to you guys?

I bet it means something different to others.

What I am seeing, of course can be wrong, is a good bit of semantics and attempts at character assassination.

[HopetonBrown]

"tactical background" to me means some sort of background where they were taught tactics and used those tactics to perform their job.

[Eyesquared]

What does "tactical background" mean to you guys?

I bet it means something different to others.

What I am seeing, of course can be wrong, is a good bit of semantics and attempts at character assassination.

My understanding of "tactical background" is colored by Mr. Kier's earlier statement: "I see there are a few out there with some opposing views or still want to hear how many of our instructors have tactical backgrounds. The answer is all of them. Naval Special Warfare, Army Special Forces, some are publicly well known and also run their own companies like Kyle Defoor, Bill Rapier and Dom Raso. Others are less well known publicly but very well known within the community of operators."

When Mr. Kier starts listing off SOF organizations and known SOF guys as examples of people with a "tactical background," I usually don't also add in "civilians who trained to be super duper good at BJJ and FMA" and "some guy who got busted by Professional Soldiers for stolen valor." Mr. Kier's statement is obviously disingenuous.

[Gray222]

The instructors mentioned teach specific aspects, others teach other aspects. His statements are very factual. The fact you googled people and immediately assumed they didnt live upto your definition of something you start playing semantics and attempting character assassinations.

But because its on the internet its true, right?

[Eyesquared]

The instructors mentioned teach specific aspects, others teach other aspects. His statements are very factual. The fact you googled people and immediately assumed they didnt live upto your definition of something you start playing semantics and attempting character assassinations.

But because its on the internet its true, right?

You're mixing me up with someone else. I can't speak for others here but I have never met Mr. Kier in person, nor has he offended or wronged me in any way. There is no reason for me to attempt a "character assassination" of him. From my reading of his earlier remarks I am not entirely certain how they line up with what pup-town has posted here. I may very well be mistaken here but to my initial reading they simply do not jive. If he was referring to his firearms instructors only, then I can see how that would cause misunderstanding.

[wsr]

Oops dt

[wsr]

The instructors mentioned teach specific aspects, others teach other aspects. His statements are very factual. The fact you googled people and immediately assumed they didnt live upto your definition of something you start playing semantics and attempting character assassinations.

But because its on the internet its true, right?


What does "tactical background" mean to you guys?

I bet it means something different to others.

What I am seeing, of course can be wrong, is a good bit of semantics and attempts at character assassination.
I have no dog in this fight but come on man....you are using The Clinton "depends on what the meaning of is is" line of thought

[JodyH]

What I am seeing, of course can be wrong, is a good bit of semantics and attempts at character assassination.
I'm seeing a good bit of semantics gymnastics from you and Mr. Kier as well.
Your very aggressive defense of them has me wondering about your affiliation with Sayoc.

BTW: I'm not tactical but I can grow a sweet beard.

[Shellback]

Kelly Alwood – (fourth from left in the instructor photo) - yeah, he has a ‘tactical’ background. He’s also a complete fraud.

http://www.jprifles.com/document_images/121.jpg

https://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=531873 Here he is being taken down by “Team Sergeant” at Professionalsoldiers.com
We also are in possession of Kelly Alwood's military records, or should I say "Private" Kelly Alwood's official military record. How both of you were "discharged" as "privates" is beyond me. I'd sure like to see Kelly's resume for his contracting jobs, especially the military "experience" part........ And I'm sure Kelly can and will produce his US Army "Sniper" school diploma, you know the sniper school he posted on the internet. How did Kelly go to Army Sniper school and he spent less than one year in the US Army?????? And just how do you spend less than one year in the Army? I didn't realize there was an enlistment for less than three years?
He also lies about being a SOF SERE instructor.
Is Kelly Alwood the same as Kent Alwood? The link you provided lists Kent Alwood, not Kelly.


Sounds like someone is trying to make waves.

Or reveal the truth about their instructors backgrounds, or lack thereof.

[Eyesquared]

Is Kelly Alwood the same as Kent Alwood? The link you provided lists Kent Alwood, not Kelly.



Or reveal the truth about their instructors backgrounds, or lack thereof.

Kent Alwood appears to be Kelly's father. If you search the page you'll see Kelly Alwood in there as well.

[Shellback]

Kent Alwood appears to be Kelly's father. If you search the page you'll see Kelly Alwood in there as well.

I missed that. Thanks

[Thomas Kier]

I want to set the record straight on this forum and hopefully finish this thread. I was quick to answer some questions and did not do a good job explaining myself, I'm going to do a better job with that now.

My intention was never to deceive anyone on this forum about STG or the backgrounds of the instructors.

All instructors for STG teach in areas they are qualified to teach, this assessment is made by STG senior instructors, by me and finally by our clients who hire us and continue to do so.

The STG instructors which provide tactical instruction for the military have military tactical backgrounds or have been vetted by the military units we are training and cleared to provide that training, this usually is the case with very specialized training and tactics designed for that task.

All STG instructors that provide tactical training for Law Enforcement have a LEO background, or have been vetted to do so by LEO's involved with the training.

All STG instructors who provide combative training have backgrounds which make them in any reasonable persons view SME's in those areas. Some of these areas would be the skill sets and tactics used for grappling, blade work, Striking, MMA , Firearm marksmanship, etc.

As the Director of Operation and Lead Instructor, I oversee instructor development, I have a group of instructors who are all SME's and they are great at what they do. But I want their understanding of other areas to be such that they can speak and have a basic understanding of all the other areas outside their specialty but still under the umbrella of tactical training i.e. Military, Law Enforcement, Concealed Carry, MMA, Blade use, etc

We have our own internal SME's in the tactics of various disciplines and they are the lead Instructors whenever that information is being taught but all of the instructors need to have cross over knowledge in all of the other areas.

The group picture which was posted by an anonymous someone trying to discredit STG, is of an Instructor development training course. During this course the lead STG Military Tactics instructor is running the other STG instructors through the course to increase their level of awareness, understanding and skill in military tactics. During this same course each of STG's instructors taught their own expertise to the rest of the instructors, Kyle Defoor was one of the instructors for this instructor development class. It was held at Legion Operator Training Group in GA, a great facility I recommend it highly.

Kelly Alwood was there and taught, restraint defeat and lock picking, in both he is a world class expert, his military background was never in question as he made no claims to me about it and it was not relivent to those areas he was teaching.

As far as the classes we teach in open enrollment.

The STG 1.0 class is Marksmanship and Weapon manipulation, no military law enforcement or tactics of any kind are taught at that class, it is all skill sets.

2.0 is a Concealed carry class and combative integration, only concealed carry and integration of combative' skills are taught, all tactics taught at that class, are concealed carry tactics.

It isn't until 3.0 that we begin to get into tactics that resemble military or law enforcement, and that is with regards to house clearing and working as a team to do so. That info is put out by STG instructors with extensive backgrounds in those areas.

My point is, in STG, whenever skill sets or tactics in any discipline are taught, they are taught by an expert in those areas. And all the lead instructors on our roster have been recognized over the last ten years, by the military, as tactical SME's in their various areas.

I apologize for any inconsistencies or confusion caused by my quick answers that where not fully explained. Also I would like to extend to anyone on this thread a free 1.0 class with us when we are holding one. This class would normally be $400, but for anyone who has posted on this thread here, it is free. I can tell by some post that I see here, many of you, would not take a class with me if I paid you...this bothers me, but I understand, especially after re reading the thread.

The most important thing to STG and I speak for the group, is that we help in training our countries warriors both the ones whom are fighting to keep our streets safe or fighting overseas. And that, in any way however small, we can help in this fight. I believe we do.

Thankyou all for the time and effort you have put into this thread, I know it has been a lot of work for some of you. I feel anytime a person fights weather that fight is mental or physical or a fight to protect your reputation, the process should make that person stronger in some way, so thank you for that.



--
Thomas Kier
Director of Operations
Sayoc Tactical Group

[orionz06]

Thanks for posting the info, Tom.

Voodooman has been trying to get me up there for a while and things never worked out given the volume of classes at my local ranges but I still had some questions lingering. You've gone above and beyond putting answers to them and picked up on subsequent questions as well. Very thorough, most would have brushed it off and left.


My perception has certainly shifted. STG has been represented a few different ways over the years and I'm glad to see some activity straight from the top to make some clarifications.

[BaiHu]

Thanks for keeping it civil, steady and chipping away at the questions, Tom.

[Aray]

I've never trained with or met anyone from STG, but I am kind of impressed with the way Mr Kier handled this thread.

[BehindBlueI's]

I apologize for any inconsistencies or confusion caused by my quick answers that where not fully explained. Also I would like to extend to anyone on this thread a free 1.0 class with us when we are holding one. This class would normally be $400, but for anyone who has posted on this thread here, it is free. I can tell by some post that I see here, many of you, would not take a class with me if I paid you...this bothers me, but I understand, especially after re reading the thread.



I'm LEO with a large department, and I'm also a penny pincher. I am not thin skinned, and I'm pretty honest about my shooting ability.

I'm in. How do we take advantage of the offer, and are you going to be in Indiana or surrounding states any time soon?

[Shellback]

...The most important thing to STG and I speak for the group, is that we help in training our countries warriors both the ones whom are fighting to keep our streets safe or fighting overseas. And that, in any way however small, we can help in this fight. I believe we do.

Thankyou all for the time and effort you have put into this thread, I know it has been a lot of work for some of you. I feel anytime a person fights weather that fight is mental or physical or a fight to protect your reputation, the process should make that person stronger in some way, so thank you for that.

Thanks for a well thought out and amicable response.

[LittleLebowski]

Thanks for a well thought out and amicable response.

Agreed. I expected a flamefest and instead saw professionalism.

[psalms144.1]

Having read (and cringed) through a lot of this thread, I'm really impressed by the way participants have managed to keep this from devolving into a typical gun forum flame out. Kudos to Mr. Kier for his reasoned and detailed responses.

I must have missed it in the chaff, where does STG teach?

Regards,

Kevin

[Cheap Shot]

I want to set the record straight on this forum and hopefully finish this thread. I was quick to answer some questions and did not do a good job explaining myself, I'm going to do a better job with that now.

My intention was never to deceive anyone on this forum about STG or the backgrounds of the instructors.

All instructors for STG teach in areas they are qualified to teach, this assessment is made by STG senior instructors, by me and finally by our clients who hire us and continue to do so.

The STG instructors which provide tactical instruction for the military have military tactical backgrounds or have been vetted by the military units we are training and cleared to provide that training, this usually is the case with very specialized training and tactics designed for that task.

All STG instructors that provide tactical training for Law Enforcement have a LEO background, or have been vetted to do so by LEO's involved with the training.

All STG instructors who provide combative training have backgrounds which make them in any reasonable persons view SME's in those areas. Some of these areas would be the skill sets and tactics used for grappling, blade work, Striking, MMA , Firearm marksmanship, etc.

As the Director of Operation and Lead Instructor, I oversee instructor development, I have a group of instructors who are all SME's and they are great at what they do. But I want their understanding of other areas to be such that they can speak and have a basic understanding of all the other areas outside their specialty but still under the umbrella of tactical training i.e. Military, Law Enforcement, Concealed Carry, MMA, Blade use, etc

We have our own internal SME's in the tactics of various disciplines and they are the lead Instructors whenever that information is being taught but all of the instructors need to have cross over knowledge in all of the other areas.

The group picture which was posted by an anonymous someone trying to discredit STG, is of an Instructor development training course. During this course the lead STG Military Tactics instructor is running the other STG instructors through the course to increase their level of awareness, understanding and skill in military tactics. During this same course each of STG's instructors taught their own expertise to the rest of the instructors, Kyle Defoor was one of the instructors for this instructor development class. It was held at Legion Operator Training Group in GA, a great facility I recommend it highly.

Kelly Alwood was there and taught, restraint defeat and lock picking, in both he is a world class expert, his military background was never in question as he made no claims to me about it and it was not relivent to those areas he was teaching.

As far as the classes we teach in open enrollment.

The STG 1.0 class is Marksmanship and Weapon manipulation, no military law enforcement or tactics of any kind are taught at that class, it is all skill sets.

2.0 is a Concealed carry class and combative integration, only concealed carry and integration of combative' skills are taught, all tactics taught at that class, are concealed carry tactics.

It isn't until 3.0 that we begin to get into tactics that resemble military or law enforcement, and that is with regards to house clearing and working as a team to do so. That info is put out by STG instructors with extensive backgrounds in those areas.

My point is, in STG, whenever skill sets or tactics in any discipline are taught, they are taught by an expert in those areas. And all the lead instructors on our roster have been recognized over the last ten years, by the military, as tactical SME's in their various areas.

I apologize for any inconsistencies or confusion caused by my quick answers that where not fully explained. Also I would like to extend to anyone on this thread a free 1.0 class with us when we are holding one. This class would normally be $400, but for anyone who has posted on this thread here, it is free. I can tell by some post that I see here, many of you, would not take a class with me if I paid you...this bothers me, but I understand, especially after re reading the thread.

The most important thing to STG and I speak for the group, is that we help in training our countries warriors both the ones whom are fighting to keep our streets safe or fighting overseas. And that, in any way however small, we can help in this fight. I believe we do.

Thankyou all for the time and effort you have put into this thread, I know it has been a lot of work for some of you. I feel anytime a person fights weather that fight is mental or physical or a fight to protect your reputation, the process should make that person stronger in some way, so thank you for that.



--
Thomas Kier
Director of Operations
Sayoc Tactical Group

RESPECT

[StraitR]

TBH, I was quite put off by some of the comments as they pertained to open enrollment classes and the students that typically take them. Glad to see everyone work through it all in a manner not often found in gun forums, albeit, this one is quite different and I think that was shown.

Mr. Kier, thank you for the detailed response, and your offer is quite generous. I would anticipate quite a few people here taking you up on it, to the tune that you could probably host a 1.0 class entirely composed of PF members. I look forward to seeing the class scheduled, and with any luck in terms of family/work conflicts, will certainly attend if remotely plausible.

Cheers

[Hizzie]

I can have an open mind. I'm down for a STG 1.0 in the SE Texas area with any instructor other than Elmore. Even if I don't like what you teach it's still a day on the range with friends - those are never a waste.

[Pup town]

I am kind of impressed with the way Mr Kier handled this thread.

Me, too. I'm impressed with most of what Mr Kier wrote. The part I'm not impressed with is where he LIED to us about his instructors, ignored questions about his own tactical background and then used a possible free class for some of us as damage control only after being called out on his lie.

Also, he called most of his open enrollment students "Internet Warriors, pissy bloggers, gun buffs and wannabe Former Action Guys...(who are) mostly thin skinned, crybaby penny pinchers, who over estimate their ability to shoot." (You realize he's talking about us, right?) I didn't find that impressive.

But I see he can buy affection with a promise of free training for a few folks. Masterful.

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/orson_wells_Slow-Clap.gif

[HopetonBrown]

No thanks.

[BaiHu]

Me, too. I'm impressed with most of what Mr Kier wrote. The part I'm not impressed with is where he LIED to us about his instructors, ignored questions about his own tactical background and then used a possible free class for some of us as damage control only after being called out on his lie.

Also, he called most of his open enrollment students "Internet Warriors, pissy bloggers, gun buffs and wannabe Former Action Guys...(who are) mostly thin skinned, crybaby penny pinchers, who over estimate their ability to shoot." (You realize he's talking about us, right?) I didn't find that impressive.

But I see he can buy affection with a promise of free training for a few folks. Masterful.

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/orson_wells_Slow-Clap.gif

Part of me agrees with you entirely and part of me actually applauds Tom for actually coming back time and time again in front of the firing squad-marketing and bedside manner don't seem to be his strong suit. Apologizing is one part, but a change of behavior will be the true test. I won't be attending, but I'll be looking forward to hearing from people who take advantage of his offer. It will be interesting....

[BehindBlueI's]

But I see he can buy affection with a promise of free training for a few folks. Masterful.


Alternately: If a legit offer, it gives people an opportunity to see for themselves and report back with an honest AAR here that is based on more than conjecture and by people who don't have a dog in the fight.

[Gray222]

Alternately: If a legit offer, it gives people an opportunity to see for themselves and report back with an honest AAR here that is based on more than conjecture and by people who don't have a dog in the fight.

I posted two AAR's which were honest.

You should also note that pup town's posts on this forum have been negative since he joined. If he isn't putting something down he isn't posting. Hell he PM'd me during this whole bit, calling me dumb, and insulting STG, its instructors and me for defending them based on my factual experiences.

I have blocked him since I would rather not have my forum experience distorted by someone who is constantly negative.

[Thomas Kier]

It is great to see how professional everyone here is, it would be great to get out to train with you guys. I'm not opposed to setting up classes just from this forum. We teach all over the country so if any of you guys are close to each other or if we can work out a central location we could set it up.

Something else that could work is we could just look at where we will be for contracts and set up the weekend before or after and do a class out there, in the middle of may, we will be out at Fort Campbell KY, later we will be around Va beach, and Fort Bragg. Anyone who is close to these areas we can set up a weekend class, because the contracts only run during the week.

It would be a 1.0 class
Two day, sun up to sundown
750-800 rounds
Rough Class outline

Safety and range protocols
Shoot the (200 drill) cold assessment
Load and unload protocols and why ?
Various press checks, and why or why not?
Ready Positions
Marksmanship Fundamentals (shooting at each topic point)
Stance
Grip
Sight alignment
Sight Picture
Breathing
Trigger control
Follow through
Recovery
Trigger control drill (Firing Squad drill)
Two handed
Strong hand only (SHO)
Other strong hand only (OSHO)
The need to balance speed and accuracy and ways to do that?
The four sighting methods for pistols (shooting each type and range)
Body alignment and proprioception (contact to 3 yards)
Back Plate or Slide Shadow (2.5 to 7 yards)
Front sight only (5 to 12 yards)
Front sight and rear sight alignment (9 to 25 yards)

Working Lunch - Mindset talk, The aspects of Conflict
Gear talk, holster choices?

Shoot a 200 drill
Building a draw stroke (shooting at each step)
Shoot the six dot drill
One shot on press out drill
Controlled doubles follow through and recoil management
Intro to positional shooting (shoot at each pos and shoot with time pressure)
SHO
OSTO
Kneeling
Prone
Supine
Shoot the 700
Finish day one, closing talk Q and A

Start day Two
Cold 200 drill
200 drill
Ball and dummy drills, recycle partner
Ball and dummy 200 drill
Review draw stroke
One shot from holster for time
Malfunction drills and immediate actions
Reloads
Combat (shooting)
Tactical (shooting)
Speed (shooting)
Admin
Farnam drill 10 reps no time
Farnam drill for time 3 reps

Working lunch - Mindset talk Feeder vs receiver, Readiness.

200 drill
Shoot positions with and without time pressure
700 drill
Shoot all four pistol sighting methods and ranges
CSAT hostage target drill
Walk back on paper finding holds
Walk back drill
Final 200
Closing talk, Q and A

[BehindBlueI's]

Middle of May would be real tough for me, although Ft. Campbell wouldn't be out of the question distance wise. Prior training obligations and then cancelled/restricted days off due the Indy 500 would make it nearly impossible from the 8th through the 25th. June is more open. July sucks, again events causing restricted/cancelled days off. August is pretty open.

[Thomas Kier]

I see Mr. Town you are still upset because you believe you belong to that annoying group of people described by me in my post. I did not say you are in that group and really don't see anyone here who would fit in that group, it's hard to say unless you meet people and spend some time with them what they are like and therefore it would be premature for me to judge people here.

I tried to point out that I did a poor job explaining some things but I was not "Lying" that is, saying something with the intent to deceive. Being a liar is a serious thing and not something I would want to be seen as. Everyone of my Instructors has a Tactical background in the areas he teaches. My Tactical background is developing and teaching skills and tactics for the last 15 years. Teaching hundreds of military and Law Enforcement over thousands of hours, spanning dozens of topics, with great success. During this time I have stayed current on gear and tactics by a constant interaction with operators and end users at the same time builting relationships with top people in the industry in a multitude of areas. But I feel this is such a poor method of really getting to know me, come to a class.

You know, talking to people on the Internet is not like talking to them face to fac,e it is hard to really get to know them. Some people are more polite on the Internet because they realize the most efficient use of this type of communication is to be clear and polite, but most people seem to become more rude or overly bold in the way they speak through the computer. Saying things they would neversay in real life. I hope you understand I don't want to have bad feelings between us, I'd like to be friends. So if you show up at the free class please introduce yourself so we can really get to know each other better and get past this unpleasantness.

I don't know your real name, so when you walk up to me, just call me a LIAR so I know who you are.

[BJJ]

Tom,
I would come to a free class at Fort Campbell. If you get it set up, please post it on the forum. Very generous offer on your part. And I am impressed with your even keeled responses in this thread.

[WobblyPossum]

I'm very impressed with the way Mr. Kier has handled this thread. I don't see the offer of a free class as buying support at all. It seems like a "put up or shut up" challenge. He's giving the people who have said negative things about him and his company a chance to see how/what he teaches first hand. Obviously people aren't likely to shell out $400 for a class they don't think will be good but if it's free, maybe they give it a chance. I know I'm more likely to give an opinion about something if I've actually had experience with it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LittleLebowski]

Guys, the mods counted 35 individuals who posted in this thread before Tom made his offer.

Strongly suggest if you're serious about taking a class, that someone take charge and help Tom do the legwork for your area. Otherwise, go to Tom's area.

[jnperrings]

Funny how Pup is now trying to incent other readers of this thread to be insulted along with him. Meanwhile, Pup's the one who started this thread, then somehow had an entire dossier on STG ready and available to post. Time waster.

My name is John Perrings. I am one of the STG instructors (the really, really good looking one) that Pup included in his "expose" of STG. I do not have a military or LEO background, but work under Tom Kier, teaching blade / combatives to the groups that have already been mentioned.

I bring this up for two reasons - 1) so you can hear from another STG instructor and get a better feel for who we are. And 2) because, as Tom mentioned, not all STG instructors are firearm instructors. STG have a "bench" of SME's who are brought in based on the desired training results of the client. I wonder if Pup has ever even had a client.

A word on my experience with Tom: I have been training under Tom Kier for over 10 years and I am still learning new things from him. This is because of his experience, how he thinks, and, as a result, who we get to associate with in order to share knowledge and ideas. You can't always understand someone or what you can learn from them by their resume. No one I know has ever said meeting Tom was a waste of time.

Tom has already posted a more comprehensive outline of what an STG course would look like. But it seems like the group might like to see something from another student's perspective (Thanks, Voodo, for posting yours). For the group's consideration, here is my overview of what I learned at a Warrior 1.0 Pistol course:

Partial Course Summary:

• 4 Rules of Safety
• Weapons handling, manipulation, Load/Unload
• Integrated system of fire
• Stance
• Grip
• Trigger management
• Sighting
• Bullseye shooting drills
○ 200
○ 700
• CQ shooting drills
○ Farnham
• MINDSET
○ 4 Rules of Safety Applied
○ Readiness Triangle
○ Warrior Mindset and mental management during training

While some of the technical details of this class might differ somewhat from other programs, It is this last bulletpoint - MINDSET - that you might find to be very different and informative. It is one of the things that I find to be the most impressive (and challenging) in the Sayoc system, as a whole. It takes what you're doing beyond the firearm.

The MINDSET discussions are handled both formally and informally, throughout the class and are integrated into the physical training.

Performance:

I had attended two handgun training modules, with another well-respected instructor, prior to attending Warrior Pistol 1.0. I made significant improvements over my then-current skills in accuracy and weapons handling.

Partial set of my personal results:

200 - Student benchmark = 180
My 200 Baseline: 135
My 200 Test: 185 - Pass

Farnham - Student Benchmark = 12 seconds
My Farnham Baseline: 18.0 seconds
My Farnham Test: 13.5 seconds - Fail

This is pretty high-level, but I hope this post helps the individuals in this group to assess whether or not it will make sense to consider a class and see what Sayoc is all about. I am happy to help answer any questions you may have about my experience with Tom and/or Sayoc.

Best regards,

John Perrings

[orionz06]

Also, he called most of his open enrollment students "Internet Warriors, pissy bloggers, gun buffs and wannabe Former Action Guys...(who are) mostly thin skinned, crybaby penny pinchers, who over estimate their ability to shoot." (You realize he's talking about us, right?) I didn't find that impressive.




But he's not wrong. I'm quite pleased someone came out and said it.

[BehindBlueI's]

Guys, the mods counted 35 individuals who posted in this thread before Tom made his offer.

Strongly suggest if you're serious about taking a class, that someone take charge and help Tom do the legwork for your area. Otherwise, go to Tom's area.

I am certainly serious, but I also don't have the time to take lead and have one more thing on my plate. If there's a class within 5 hours of Indianapolis on a weekend I'm free, I'll be there.

[EPF]

I stand by my comments

[StraitR]

About three pages back, prior to the free class offering, I had a nice little piece typed out about my anticipation of Mr. Kier coming back to whisper sweet nothings in an attempt to make friends. I was a little bent by some of his comments, specifically those speaking poorly about the students who give him their time and money in exchange for training that he seems uninterested in providing. (I'm a gun buff and FAG according to his descriptions, and apparently a little thin skinned because I was pissed) Anyway, I yielded to the side of better judgment and simply hit the cancel button. Well, he came back whispering, but he did it with a humble and mature attitude towards everyone here, including those who continue to insult him.

Even if there wasn't a free class on the table, because let's face it, it's not free unless it's down the street at your local range and he's fronting the ammo, I would still applaud him for his efforts to clarify and make things right. And let's not get too carried away here, our little corner of the interwebz is a small one, and given STG's business model, he has nothing to prove to PF nor does he require our approval for continued success.

That said, Mr. Kier has extended an open invitation to come and see for yourself. Take it or leave it, but similar to bitching about elected officials all the while being too lazy to go out and vote, if you don't go and participate, you have nothing to complain about.

[SLG]

Mr. Kier,

Where are your normally scheduled (the three dates on your website) pistol classes being held? If I can swing the time, I would love to take you up on your generous offer.

[Shellback]

I'd take a class from any one of those guys. Where do you guys train out of? Is it a single location type deal or are you a traveling outfit as well?


Also, class dates and locations?


Locations?


That was my question earlier... Sign up, pay up, but where do you show up?


I must have missed it in the chaff, where does STG teach?


Where are your normally scheduled (the three dates on your website) pistol classes being held?

Inquiring minds want to know.

[Thomas Kier]

We have two or three ranges we use in the Pocono area of PA. We would hold classes at Legion Operator Training Group in GA. We have ranges that we can use all over the country. I believe the classes set up on the calendar are in Canadensis PA 18325.

We usually meet up at a local place near by and drive everyone in.

The last open enrollment class up there, we decided to shut down, because about 1000 state Troopers were running through the woods around the range, so we moved the class to another location.

We have some may have lodgeing options up there. And we have our own ammo company, loading 9mm and .45 if anyone has a hard time finding either ammo or a place to stay.

[Aray]

Me, too. I'm impressed with most of what Mr Kier wrote. The part I'm not impressed with is where he LIED to us about his instructors, ignored questions about his own tactical background and then used a possible free class for some of us as damage control only after being called out on his lie.

Also, he called most of his open enrollment students "Internet Warriors, pissy bloggers, gun buffs and wannabe Former Action Guys...(who are) mostly thin skinned, crybaby penny pinchers, who over estimate their ability to shoot." (You realize he's talking about us, right?) I didn't find that impressive.

But I see he can buy affection with a promise of free training for a few folks. Masterful.

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/orson_wells_Slow-Clap.gif

I have not, and have no plans to train with STG, free or otherwise.

Affection? Hardly, I merely was saying he didn't get baited into an internet pissing match.

He may be lying, I don't know, time will potentially tell.

He isn't talking about me.

[Pup town]

Funny how Pup is now trying to incent other readers of this thread to be insulted along with him. Meanwhile, Pup's the one who started this thread, then somehow had an entire dossier on STG ready and available to post. Time waster.


I didn't have an entire "dossier" on STG ready to go. For that to be true, I would have had to have anticipated that Kier would be untruthful about STG instructor's backgrounds when I started the thread, giving me the opportunity to publish my prepared "dossier" that exposed him as a liar. I'm not that smart.

Here's what happened.

First, Voodoo Man said that the instructors' backgrounds would have to be heavily redacted - my BS detector pinged.

Then Kier said every instructor had a tactical background, and Little Lebowski ask Kier if he instructed or served in an administrative role (and there was no answer) - my BS detector pinged a little more.

Because of those things, I googled "Sayoc Tactical Group" + "Instructor" and saw a lot of profiles of people (including you) with backgrounds that no one but Kier would define as tactical. I took about 90 minutes to come up with what I posted.

So, really, you can thank Voodoo Man. Without him chirping in, I wouldn't have been interested enough to bother doing the research.

End of story.



(I hope you guys getting the free training set up the class when STG is teaching at a military base. I'm told you'll get the first string instructors. If you go to rural PA for the open enrollment class, you get the 'younger' instructors, as Kier called them. Just what I'm hearing.)

[jc000]

…our little corner of the interwebz is a small one, and given STG's business model, he has nothing to prove to PF nor does he require our approval for continued success.

That said, Mr. Kier has extended an open invitation to come and see for yourself. Take it or leave it, but similar to bitching about elected officials all the while being too lazy to go out and vote, if you don't go and participate, you have nothing to complain about.

Absolutely, would love to take advantage of this offer and see for myself what STG is all about. Very classy move, IMO.

[rwa]

That said, Mr. Kier has extended an open invitation to come and see for yourself. Take it or leave it, but similar to bitching about elected officials all the while being too lazy to go out and vote, if you don't go and participate, you have nothing to complain about.

I filled out the form on the STG website for open enrollment before Tom's offer was made. I still have not received any kind of response. I really wonder if STG will come through with a free class. We shall see.

For those of you who honestly believe consumers can't complain without first hand experience of the product, that's like saying you can't trash talk a Jennings or a Hi-Point without throwing your money down the toilet first. Good, bad, or indifferent, reputations are built in part by actions other than the end product.

[DamonL]

It too bad this thread went this way.

A few weekends ago, I attended a promotion at F3 Tactical where Kyle Defoor and Raven Concealment attended. I had a chance to talk to Kyle. I actually told him I really wanted to attend a class he held at South Hills, VA a few years ago but couldn't make it. It was a class he held with Sayoc Kali and it was an integrated gun/knife program. He said it was taught with Tom Kier and that the military was doing that stuff for years.

After reviewing the videos and seeing the POI and explanation of the training progressions from 1 to 5, it looks really interesting to me. For many here, level 1 might not be interesting, but the unique knife/gun integrated program at the higher levels would really interest me.

I do get that many on this forum have attended multiple training programs and are very careful where you spend your money and that the instructor has a creditable resume.

[Gray222]

You seem like a logical guy that's serious about training. I appreciate that.

You took from training from STG, and maybe it was good. Maybe you want to be an instructor for them and be a part of their tribe. Cool.


Is that why you are overlooking the facts to publicly defend them? You clearly see that Kier wasn't truthful. You are looking pretty silly.

Look, kier, if he responds, is going to say something about those aren't the only instructors, maybe they are assistants, the ones with the SOF backgrounds aren't pictured, etc. Let him say that. You'll hurt your reputation white knighting for him.


Puptowns pm, before he called me dumb for telling him hes wrong.

Credibility?

Non-existent.

[StraitR]

For those of you who honestly believe consumers can't complain without first hand experience of the product, that's like saying you can't trash talk a Jennings or a Hi-Point without throwing your money down the toilet first. Good, bad, or indifferent, reputations are built in part by actions other than the end product.

Completely different. You're talking about tangible products with a well documented history of quality, or lack thereof. This is about a service provided, which can and often will, vary from class to class. The fact is, nobody other than Voodoo and Hizzie have experience to speak of, and their opinions are polar opposite.

Either way, experience is a precursor to knowledge. None of the SME's on this board became such simply by reading.

[LittleLebowski]

It too bad this thread went this way.


It's working out a lot better than I thought it would have, kudos to Mr Kier for how he has handled it.

[rwa]

Completely different. You're talking about tangible products with a well documented history of quality, or lack thereof.
I disagree. I believe services (as well as "tangible products") can have their reputations either enhanced or destroyed by a documented lack of quality. Even "rumors" about a lack of quality can cause folks to look elsewhere for their services.

[StraitR]

I disagree. I believe services (as well as "tangible products") can have their reputations either enhanced or destroyed by a documented lack of quality. Even "rumors" about a lack of quality can cause folks to look elsewhere for their services.

I don't disagree with those statements, but we're not talking about rumors and reputations. We're talking about personal experience, and without it, you merely have the opinion of others who may or may not have experience themselves. While you're able to form an opinion based on what you read/hear as well as share that opinion with others, you're still left exempt from complaining about services and/or tangible items you have no personal experience with. And to be clear, the issue that has plagued STG in this thread has not been a documented lack of quality, rather some poor PR efforts by some of it's staff, which has been cleared up.

Either way, let's just agree to disagree and march on without further derailing the thread.

Cheers.

[Hizzie]

Hey Tom,

So how do we go about getting a free 1.0 class?

[KevinB]

Can't honestly remember if I posted in this previously -- however I'm all about free classes ;)

[StraitR]

Can't honestly remember if I posted in this previously -- however I'm all about free classes ;)

And making fun of guys for wearing M&P shirts while shooting Glocks. :p

You ever hit the CFDCC matches anymore?

----------

I do remember posting, but I'll say it again to stay on track, I'm in for the class if it's south of the Mason-Dixon.

[LSP972]

And making fun of guys for wearing M&P shirts while shooting Glocks. :p



I went to a GSSF match wearing an HK hat a few weeks back; some of those boneheads actually got offended.:rolleyes:

.

[Thomas Kier]

I would like to get these free classes scheduled. I think we will have to hold more than one, because we will not be able to get everyone together on the same date or at the same location.

The first one I purpose is at our eastern PA location, in the Poconos. I will get back on here and post three good dates for us from June thru October. If there are more than 3 guys who want the class we will run it on that date.

First question: Who here would come to a class in NE Pa, Pocono area.? Two hours north of Philly.

[WobblyPossum]

I'd be willing to do a NE PA class. Granted, I'm not one of the folks eligible for the free class, but this thread has made me pretty curious about Sayoc.

[Thomas Kier]

You are welcome to come to the class Dan for free. We will post dates that work for us soon.

[WobblyPossum]

You are welcome to come to the class Dan for free. We will post dates that work for us soon.

Wow. Thanks Mr. Kier. That's a very generous offer. You really have expressed a ton of professionalism in this thread and it says a lot about you and your organization. This is literally putting your money where your mouth is and I respect that.

[zml342]

The first one I purpose is at our eastern PA location, in the Poconos. I will get back on here and post three good dates for us from June thru October. If there are more than 3 guys who want the class we will run it on that date.

First question: Who here would come to a class in NE Pa, Pocono area.? Two hours north of Philly.

Mr. Kier, if that offer extends to those who hadn't posted in this thread I would be interested in attending.

[BJJ]

Hello Tom,

Please post if you come up with a date for a class in the Fort Campbell area. Thanks.

[Irelander]

Put me down for tentative on the class in the Poconos. I will try to make it but it depends on my work schedule.

[LittleLebowski]

Guys, I would strongly recommend personally contacting Tom/Sayoc via email/PM if you can make the class. Do it the right way with the paperwork Sayoc may require. I do not know if Sayoc needs range fees but it's quite reasonable if they do, particualrly for a free class.

[Thomas Kier]

If people want to train I have a hard time turning them away, I'm passionate about training. I don't want to clog up this forum with a back and forth about everything to do with these classes, there are more important matters to discuss.
STG will be doing 3 free classes in 2015, at least one will be in the Poconos. May 30 - 31, 2015
Each class will be limited from 4 to 15 slots. So a max of 45 slots over three classes.

Confirm at email: info@sayoctactical.com for the May 30-31, 2015 class

Thanks
Thomas Kier
Director of Operations
STG

[Shellback]

I'm definitely interested in attending but that one will be too soon for myself. I do look forward to participating in a future class.

[JDW]

Gentlemen,

If you've sent a request expressing interest in attending our Warrior Pistol 1 class this weekend, you should have received an email confirming your registration. If you are interested in attending and have not yet sent an email to info@sayoctactical.com, please do so ASAP so we can get an accurate headcount.

Due to the compressed timeline we have had some challenges in coordinating logistics which has perpetuated the late notification. My apologies.

Tom will send a detailed email to attendees with all pertinent info.


Respectfully,

JD.Wolfe
STG

[rwa]

Anyone planning on attending? I opened my e-mail and found the invite on the morning of the 27th. Class starts on the morning of the 5/30/15. Logistically impossible for me to make the trip. Suprise, suprise...

[DamonL]

One reason I am interested in this topic. This video clip introduces the idea of blade/pistol integration.

http://youtu.be/Fs-TObcA6R0

[TGS]

Anyone planning on attending? I opened my e-mail and found the invite on the morning of the 27th. Class starts on the morning of the 5/30/15. Logistically impossible for me to make the trip. Suprise, suprise...

I'm here right now. Well, I'm in my hotel in Mt Pocono.

DO NOT GET A HOTEL IN MT POCONO.

Ghetto as fuck clientele. This location is the definition of broken window theory. The range is actually on private ground in Canadensis, so get lodging in East Stroudsburg.

Otherwise, class is going well. Its sort of an instructor development course/tune up in ways for their instructors, so we did day 1 of 1.0 and tomorrow we are jumping ahead to some of 2.0. I agree that their stuff may not be for everyone, but they do teach the nation's best and when taken as a whole curriculum, 1 through 5, their system has merit. I'm being exposed to some new stuff and methodologies. Their standards are tight, and it is definitely a great marksmanship course. The biggest problem I see is that pretty much everything beyond 2.0 is not open enrollment, and even then 1 and 2 are fairly hard to get to given time-space considerations. Thus, I'm not sure how useful that certain things would be as they need to be taken in context with more training from the more combative oriented courses.

I'll have a full AAR up next week. In short, it was a good decision to come up here. Tom and Wolfe have been humble and brotherly as hell...and that assessment applies to the other instructors 8n the class with me as well.

[JDM]

I'm here right now. Well, I'm in my hotel in Mt Pocono.

DO NOT GET A HOTEL IN MT POCONO.

Ghetto as fuck clientele. This location is the definition of broken window theory. The range is actually on private ground in Canadensis, so get lodging in East Stroudsburg.

Otherwise, class is going well. Its sort of an instructor development course/tune up in ways for their instructors, so we did day 1 of 1.0 and tomorrow we are jumping ahead to some of 2.0. I agree that their stuff may not be for everyone, but they do teach the nation's best and when taken as a whole curriculum, 1 through 5, their system has merit. I'm being exposed to some new stuff and methodologies. Their standards are tight, and it is definitely a great marksmanship course. The biggest problem I see is that pretty much everything beyond 2.0 is not open enrollment, and even then 1 and 2 are fairly hard to get to given time-space considerations. Thus, I'm not sure how useful that certain things would be as they need to be taken in context with more training from the more combative oriented courses.

I'll have a full AAR up next week. In short, it was a good decision to come up here. Tom and Wolfe have been humble and brotherly as hell...and that assessment applies to the other instructors 8n the class with me as well.

Awesome, TGS. Looking forward to the AAR!

[LittleLebowski]

I'm here right now. Well, I'm in my hotel in Mt Pocono.

DO NOT GET A HOTEL IN MT POCONO.

Ghetto as fuck clientele. This location is the definition of broken window theory. The range is actually on private ground in Canadensis, so get lodging in East Stroudsburg.

Otherwise, class is going well. Its sort of an instructor development course/tune up in ways for their instructors, so we did day 1 of 1.0 and tomorrow we are jumping ahead to some of 2.0. I agree that their stuff may not be for everyone, but they do teach the nation's best and when taken as a whole curriculum, 1 through 5, their system has merit. I'm being exposed to some new stuff and methodologies. Their standards are tight, and it is definitely a great marksmanship course. The biggest problem I see is that pretty much everything beyond 2.0 is not open enrollment, and even then 1 and 2 are fairly hard to get to given time-space considerations. Thus, I'm not sure how useful that certain things would be as they need to be taken in context with more training from the more combative oriented courses.

I'll have a full AAR up next week. In short, it was a good decision to come up here. Tom and Wolfe have been humble and brotherly as hell...and that assessment applies to the other instructors 8n the class with me as well.

Excellent, looking forward to the AAR. Kudos to Sayoc for doing this.

[TGS]

Review is up https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?16212-Sayoc-Tactical-Group&p=325093#post325093

[Pup town]

Anyone planning on attending? I opened my e-mail and found the invite on the morning of the 27th. Class starts on the morning of the 5/30/15. Logistically impossible for me to make the trip. Suprise, suprise...

What, you and almost everyone else that expressed interest in the free training couldn't make it to rural Pennsylvania on 72 hours notice?

You must be one of the Internet Warriors, pissy bloggers, gun buffs and wannabe Former Action Guys that are mostly thin skinned, crybaby penny pinchers, who over estimate their ability to shoot that Tom Kier told us about. You know, the type of person that attends open enrollment classes.

[TGS]

What, you and almost everyone else that expressed interest in the free training couldn't make it to rural Pennsylvania on 72 hours notice?

You must be one of the Internet Warriors, pissy bloggers, gun buffs and wannabe Former Action Guys that are mostly thin skinned, crybaby penny pinchers, who over estimate their ability to shoot that Tom Kier told us about. You know, the type of person that attends open enrollment classes.

I really don't get the negativity and trying to fault them for offering training this weekend. The range has other uses and needed to be secured before they could make a final offer for training. They had an opportunity this weekend and tried to get it together...it's not like they had months notice. Many trainers make their schedule a year out.

So why the negativity? What productive value are you adding?

[Pup town]

What productive value are you adding?

Well, I did get you a free training weekend. I'm glad you enjoyed it.

[Chuck Haggard]

What, you and almost everyone else that expressed interest in the free training couldn't make it to rural Pennsylvania on 72 hours notice?

You must be one of the Internet Warriors, pissy bloggers, gun buffs and wannabe Former Action Guys that are mostly thin skinned, crybaby penny pinchers, who over estimate their ability to shoot that Tom Kier told us about. You know, the type of person that attends open enrollment classes.

There is zero need for this sort of thing, period.

I get your message, however your snark and crappy tone are uncalled for. That's not how we do business around here.

[rwa]

You know, the type of person that attends open enrollment classes. Nah, I just live out in the middle of Wyoming and travel is a pain.

[jellydonut]

The biggest problem I see is that pretty much everything beyond 2.0 is not open enrollment, and even then 1 and 2 are fairly hard to get to given time-space considerations.

So what you're saying is that for civilians it would be impossible to progress beyond 2.0? Just trying to get clarification here.

[Gray222]

So what you're saying is that for civilians it would be impossible to progress beyond 2.0? Just trying to get clarification here.

If you go to the 1.0 class and meet all the criteria for the 2.0 class, then go to the 2.0 class and meet all the criteria for the 3.0 class, as long as there are enough people for an "open" enrollment of a 3.0 class then there will be one (if possible with time requirement/range/etc).

The issue is not many people in an "open enrollment" class will qualify for a 2.0 class to begin with and it just gets harder from there.

[Shellback]

If people want to train I have a hard time turning them away, I'm passionate about training. I don't want to clog up this forum with a back and forth about everything to do with these classes, there are more important matters to discuss.
STG will be doing 3 free classes in 2015, at least one will be in the Poconos. May 30 - 31, 2015
Each class will be limited from 4 to 15 slots. So a max of 45 slots over three classes.

Confirm at email: info@sayoctactical.com for the May 30-31, 2015 class

Thanks
Thomas Kier
Director of Operations
STG

Tom - I read the review of your first class and was wondering if you were planning on having any additional ones? Possibly 2016? I didn't see a 2016 schedule listed on your site. I'm in the NE now and would be very interested in attending. Thanks!