Class, Police Trades, and Carry Position.

[Virtuosity Student]

I was recently referred here by another member and have been lurking for a while. I joined and did a couple of searches and couldn't really find what I was looking for.

I have just over 1,000 saved now for a quality gun, belt, holster, and class. The classes I am looking at run anywhere from 500 and up. The belt and holster budget is about 100-150 tops. This leaves only about 400 for the gun itself and hence I am looking at police trades as most are carried more than shot. While some would find it unforunate that they are 40 S&W, my father happens to shoot and reload 40 and has a nice stash which he has agreed to give me the 1,000 +/- rounds needed for training.

The police trades offer good value as most come with steel night sights and 3 mags. The ones I am looking at are:

M&P 40
M&P 40c
G22 Gen3
G23 Gen3

Which of those would probably give me the longest duration being chambered in 40? The interwebz mostly seems to favor the M&P but I can't help but think about the G23 size since its the equivalent of the highly esteemed G19. And I have read that you can send Glock police trades back to Glock and they will give them a "tune up". Can anyone validate that?

My next conundrum is carry position. I know this is subjective and will likely require some trial and error on my part. I have small children which means a lot of bending down (seems like this would be a PITA for appendix) and only having one hand available as the other is usually holding a kid. I am sure someone here can chime in who is in a similar situation and offer sound advice as to a carry position.

Sorry for the novel, just want to get it right out of the gate. Thanks PF!

[LittleLebowski]

I'd go with an M&P40 and strong side IWB.

[BehindBlueI's]

It doesn't matter. The differences are so minor as to be completely irrelevant to a beginner or novice. Any of them are easy guns to learn to shoot, and easy to shoot reasonably well. Shooting is like any other skill or sport. Early gains come quick and easy. As you get better and better, the next tiny bit of difference is much harder to get. THAT's the point when gear starts to matter. Once you're looking at an inch difference at 7yds, a tenth of a second on draws, etc.

Compacts will be slightly easier to conceal. Full size will be slightly easier to shoot. Neither is groundbreakingly different.

As far as 'duration', all of them are durable. The odds of you putting enough ammo through any of them to break them are very very tiny.

[JSGlock34]

In my experience, the size difference between the G22 and G23 is much more significant in terms of recoil control than the same pistols chambered in 9mm. I shot the G23 for years (my only .40 handgun) and found it much more snappy than its G22 cousin. If given the choice of a Glock .40, I'd choose the G22 all day long over the G23.

As far as the "Glock tune up", see if there is a GSSF match in your area. They usually have a Glock Armorer on site who will inspect your pistol replace the springs in your pistol for free.

IWB or a OWB 'pancake' style holster (such as the Raven) would seem the way to go.

[Chuck Haggard]

I'd be seriously tempted to go with the 40c, those guns are roughly G19 sized, and lower recoil than the Glocks in .40

[breakingtime91]

I was recently referred here by another member and have been lurking for a while. I joined and did a couple of searches and couldn't really find what I was looking for.

I have just over 1,000 saved now for a quality gun, belt, holster, and class. The classes I am looking at run anywhere from 500 and up. The belt and holster budget is about 100-150 tops. This leaves only about 400 for the gun itself and hence I am looking at police trades as most are carried more than shot. While some would find it unforunate that they are 40 S&W, my father happens to shoot and reload 40 and has a nice stash which he has agreed to give me the 1,000 +/- rounds needed for training.

The police trades offer good value as most come with steel night sights and 3 mags. The ones I am looking at are:

M&P 40
M&P 40c
G22 Gen3
G23 Gen3

Which of those would probably give me the longest duration being chambered in 40? The interwebz mostly seems to favor the M&P but I can't help but think about the G23 size since its the equivalent of the highly esteemed G19. And I have read that you can send Glock police trades back to Glock and they will give them a "tune up". Can anyone validate that?

My next conundrum is carry position. I know this is subjective and will likely require some trial and error on my part. I have small children which means a lot of bending down (seems like this would be a PITA for appendix) and only having one hand available as the other is usually holding a kid. I am sure someone here can chime in who is in a similar situation and offer sound advice as to a carry position.

Sorry for the novel, just want to get it right out of the gate. Thanks PF!

the g23 has a lot of felt recoil but honestly you could use it for awhile then switch it over to 9mm once you save up money for more ammo

[JMS]

he has agreed to give me the 1,000 +/- rounds needed for training.

Whichever class(es) you take, ping the instructor and see if you may use reloads. Many (most of the good ones...) do not allow them.

Why: Outright liability aside (KABOOM), if your gun ends up choked on homebrew ammo...they have an entire rest-of-the-class to teach, people who paid just as much for instruction as you did. He/she cannot in good conscience focus on an individual's equipment shortfalls at the expense of other paying customers, and it'd be rude/illogical of any student to think that they should (unless they have other staff on hand, who may be spared from assisting with providing instruction; not always the case).

Some teachers don't care, though. It's worth asking.

[jh9]

OP doesn't specify, but if this is a first gun / first class affair, then two things pop to mind:

Hopefully OP's dad takes into account how terribad recoil is out of a Glock 22/23 and tones them down a bit. Factory .40 out of a Glock 23 is brutal to put it kindly. Manlier shooters may disagree, but it's worth noting

Getting started with a multi-hundred round, multi-day class is laudable, but not unlike drinking from a fire hose. Paying several hundred dollars for a class that's going to saturate your brain 15 minutes after the first round is fired is kind of wasting money. Basic NRA Handgun 101 is like $50 locally. A more efficient use of money might be a few smaller, more focused classes rather than jumping in the deep end of the pool with one weekend-long deal.

[psalms144.1]

Factory .40 out of a Glock 23 is brutal to put it kindly.

Getting started with a multi-hundred round, multi-day class is laudable, but not unlike drinking from a fire hose. Paying several hundred dollars for a class that's going to saturate your brain 15 minutes after the first round is fired is kind of wasting money. Basic NRA Handgun 101 is like $50 locally. A more efficient use of money might be a few smaller, more focused classes rather than jumping in the deep end of the pool with one weekend-long deal.
These were two of my thoughts as well. First, if this is your first handgun, I wouldn't start with a .40 S&W in order to afford other stuff. What's the cost differential between the police trade in .40s and a similar platform, used, in 9mm? Especially in the 3rd Gen pistols, recoil with full factory .40 in G23s is no fun - I can attest to this from uncomfortable experience. The recoil control issues associated with shooting 500 rounds/day of .40 through a G23 or M&Pc are likely to cause significant issues with recoil anticipation, etc.

If a friend of mine had $1K to spend on a starter pistol, accessories, and a training class, and was a NEW SHOOTER, I'd recommend a decent kydex OWB holster (heck - for about $40 you could get a perfectly good "range" holster like an ALS-equipped Safariland - like this one: http://www.opticsplanet.com/safariland-holster-stx-odg-rh-glock-19.html), a decent belt (like this https://www.daltechforce.com/strongest-gun-belt for $50), and a couple-three kydex mag pouches (http://www.kytexgear.com/products-page/pistol-mag-carriers/glock/). Then, instead of a $500 1000-round-two-day course, I'd find a decent basic marksmanship and gun handling course (the NRA 101 would do the trick), and spend the "savings" on either a lightly used G19/G17, or a VP9, or a P320.

Learn the basics with the guidance of someone local, practice until your skills plateau, THEN spend the money on a "name" trainer to get you to the next level. Dry fire confirmed with live fire on the range, with someone you can go back to to verify you're doing things correctly (or to help you fix things that go wrong) is key.

Of course, if you're already confident and comfortable with the basics of marksmanship and gun handling, and you're looking to get to the next level, you may be on track. I still think taking a heavy round count course with any Glock in .40 is a recipe for pain and suffering, though...

Regards,

Kevin

[breakingtime91]

These were two of my thoughts as well. First, if this is your first handgun, I wouldn't start with a .40 S&W in order to afford other stuff. What's the cost differential between the police trade in .40s and a similar platform, used, in 9mm? Especially in the 3rd Gen pistols, recoil with full factory .40 in G23s is no fun - I can attest to this from uncomfortable experience. The recoil control issues associated with shooting 500 rounds/day of .40 through a G23 or M&Pc are likely to cause significant issues with recoil anticipation, etc.

If a friend of mine had $1K to spend on a starter pistol, accessories, and a training class, and was a NEW SHOOTER, I'd recommend a decent kydex OWB holster (heck - for about $40 you could get a perfectly good "range" holster like an ALS-equipped Safariland - like this one: http://www.opticsplanet.com/safariland-holster-stx-odg-rh-glock-19.html), a decent belt (like this https://www.daltechforce.com/strongest-gun-belt for $50), and a couple-three kydex mag pouches (http://www.kytexgear.com/products-page/pistol-mag-carriers/glock/). Then, instead of a $500 1000-round-two-day course, I'd find a decent basic marksmanship and gun handling course (the NRA 101 would do the trick), and spend the "savings" on either a lightly used G19/G17, or a VP9, or a P320.

Learn the basics with the guidance of someone local, practice until your skills plateau, THEN spend the money on a "name" trainer to get you to the next level. Dry fire confirmed with live fire on the range, with someone you can go back to to verify you're doing things correctly (or to help you fix things that go wrong) is key.

Of course, if you're already confident and comfortable with the basics of marksmanship and gun handling, and you're looking to get to the next level, you may be on track. I still think taking a heavy round count course with any Glock in .40 is a recipe for pain and suffering, though...

Regards,

Kevin

awesome advice

[dgg9]

These were two of my thoughts as well. First, if this is your first handgun, I wouldn't start with a .40 S&W in order to afford other stuff.

....

If a friend of mine had $1K to spend on a starter pistol, accessories, and a training class, and was a NEW SHOOTER, I'd recommend a decent kydex OWB holster

100% agreed here. It seems counter-intuitive to turn down a free case of .40, but as a beginner you have to fight several learning curve battles at once, and the reduced recoil of 9mm seems one less battle, not to mention cheaper for every subsequent case.

At the beginning, kydex OWB at 3:30 makes classes easier. What you do in classes (and not so much in real life) is a huge series of draw, fire, reholster. The latter will be much easier with kydex OWB. Holsters are not expensive, and for common guns, there's a lot on the used market. You can always get an IWB later.

I also agree that first classes with regional trainers are a major bang for the buck. My first-ever real class was Jeff Gonzales's CP1, and I was overmatched, both in skill and my gear choices. I would have been better served with a local class or two to at least debug my gear and my fundamentals.

[Kimura]

I was recently referred here by another member and have been lurking for a while. I joined and did a couple of searches and couldn't really find what I was looking for.

I have just over 1,000 saved now for a quality gun, belt, holster, and class. The classes I am looking at run anywhere from 500 and up. The belt and holster budget is about 100-150 tops. This leaves only about 400 for the gun itself and hence I am looking at police trades as most are carried more than shot. While some would find it unforunate that they are 40 S&W, my father happens to shoot and reload 40 and has a nice stash which he has agreed to give me the 1,000 +/- rounds needed for training.

The police trades offer good value as most come with steel night sights and 3 mags. The ones I am looking at are:

M&P 40
M&P 40c
G22 Gen3
G23 Gen3

Which of those would probably give me the longest duration being chambered in 40? The interwebz mostly seems to favor the M&P but I can't help but think about the G23 size since its the equivalent of the highly esteemed G19. And I have read that you can send Glock police trades back to Glock and they will give them a "tune up". Can anyone validate that?

My next conundrum is carry position. I know this is subjective and will likely require some trial and error on my part. I have small children which means a lot of bending down (seems like this would be a PITA for appendix) and only having one hand available as the other is usually holding a kid. I am sure someone here can chime in who is in a similar situation and offer sound advice as to a carry position.

Sorry for the novel, just want to get it right out of the gate. Thanks PF!

I think Kevin/psalms had some really good advice in his post. You say your Dad reloads and shoots .40; does that mean you do as well and this is just your first purchase or...?

The Glock versus M&P thing is kind of a toss up to me. I am not a huge fan of the M&P, mostly because of the issues the 9mm has had and S&W's handling of the problem or lack thereof. So it has kind of soured me on the pistol, but I'll also say that I think the M&P has a lot less recoil than a Glock in .40. And I also tend to like Glock but if buying a Gen 3, 23 i would be very tempted to try the Sprinco dual recoil spring system in it, which is another $80.00. Gen 4s already have a dual recoil system and that tells me something. Honestly, a friend of mine who has years of shooting experience asked me a couple of months back what I thought was the best ALL AROUND service pistol. My answer without hesitation was the Glock 17 or 19. I don't think they're perfect or even the perfect choice for everything, but I think all around it's a very hard choice to beat. And by all around I mean everything from price to ease of maintenance to parts/mag prices and on and on.

Holster to me can be leather or kydex though kydex is easier on the wallet. I have the belt slide version of the above mentioned ALS and I think it's my favorite holster for everything except concealment which it really sucks at. I HATE AIWB, so strong side is the best choice for me. IWB or OWB, what holster, positioning and cant are going to be something that you will have to experiment with. For a basic range holster I like the ALS. I like the ALS locking system, but hate thumb break holsters. And I bought a lot of thumb break OWB holsters before I figured out I hate them. YMMV but save yourself a ton of money by skipping the cheap holsters and belts and no matter whether it's kydex or leather, just go good quality stuff.

Good luck, hope something in there is helpful for you.

[HopetonBrown]

A used Glock 17/19, 3 o'clock OWB holster, a 1 day class with a local POST certified instructor.

[Totem Polar]

A used Glock 17/19, 3 o'clock OWB holster, a 1 day class with a local POST certified instructor.

Add a decent belt, and this.

[Mike C]

I don't know where in NC you are but if you are close to a Lawman's they have some pretty amazing prices on police trade in Glocks and M&P's.

[Chuck Haggard]

I've seen the Springco units turn Glocks that worked into Glocks that don't

[Virtuosity Student]

Thanks to everyone thusfar for your advice and contributions.


Whichever class(es) you take, ping the instructor and see if you may use reloads. Many (most of the good ones...) do not allow them.

Why: Outright liability aside (KABOOM), if your gun ends up choked on homebrew ammo...they have an entire rest-of-the-class to teach, people who paid just as much for instruction as you did. He/she cannot in good conscience focus on an individual's equipment shortfalls at the expense of other paying customers, and it'd be rude/illogical of any student to think that they should (unless they have other staff on hand, who may be spared from assisting with providing instruction; not always the case).

Some teachers don't care, though. It's worth asking.

Sound advice. I honestly had never considered the possibility of not allowing reloads and I would not want to detract from anyone else's experience who paid their hard earned money for the class. Will look into that.


OP doesn't specify, but if this is a first gun / first class affair, then two things pop to mind:

I should have specified this in the OP. I have shot guns for years, mainly rifle and shotgun, however I am also not a novice to handguns. I have some trigger time on my dad's Sig 229 in 40 S&W as well as single action revolvers in 44 Mag and 45 LC, although it was nothing more than plinking and approaching the round counts that a 2-3 day class would require. So I am not a complete stranger to recoil and at 6'3" #240, I manage pretty well.

The purchase in question will be my first handgun that I own with the intention of CCW. But I want to seek good training so that I am not caught with my pants down if in fact, God forbid, I ever have to use it. I don't want to revert back to plinking with pops as my only reference to save me or mine if that time comes.



What's the cost differential between the police trade in .40s and a similar platform, used, in 9mm?

I'd recommend a decent kydex OWB holster (heck - for about $40 you could get a perfectly good "range" holster like an ALS-equipped Safariland - like this one: http://www.opticsplanet.com/safarila...-glock-19.html), a decent belt (like this https://www.daltechforce.com/strongest-gun-belt for $50), and a couple-three kydex mag pouches (http://www.kytexgear.com/products-pa...arriers/glock/). Then, instead of a $500 1000-round-two-day course, I'd find a decent basic marksmanship and gun handling course (the NRA 101 would do the trick), and spend the "savings" on either a lightly used G19/G17, or a VP9, or a P320.

Learn the basics with the guidance of someone local, practice until your skills plateau, THEN spend the money on a "name" trainer to get you to the next level. Dry fire confirmed with live fire on the range, with someone you can go back to to verify you're doing things correctly (or to help you fix things that go wrong) is key.

Price difference seems to be a moot. But the options are limited and usually sell out quick whereas with many depts. seemingly dumping 40 for 9mm, the 40's seem to have better availability and more options.

Thanks for the links! Great stuff!!


It seems counter-intuitive to turn down a free case of .40

This has been my struggle. Free case to get started with and as long as I provide the brass and it's in good shape...free reloads. Free reloads = more practice.

Keep it coming guys. Again the purpose is to get quality training and have this gun for CCW. Does that change anyone's opinion on OWB vs IWB?

[Lester Polfus]

You are going at this with a very smart plan.

I would concur with what everybody has said about .40 vs 9mm.

Regarding holsters, if you've the time, I would suggest cruising Ebay, Gunbroker, and the "classifieds" section of the various internet gun fora. I've gotten some very nice used holsters for pennies on the dollar compared to their original price. Also, you can often buy a holster used and if you find out it doesn't work for you, re-sell it for what you have in it, or sometimes even make a dollar or five.

[Malamute]

This has been my struggle. Free case to get started with and as long as I provide the brass and it's in good shape...free reloads. Free reloads = more practice.



What loader is he using? It may be cost effective to buy the required dies/toolhead etc for 9mm if he would load for you. In a Dillon, the entire toolhead can be swapped out fairly simply once the initial investment in the parts is made.

There may be someone here that has plenty of 9mm brass to sell cheap to get you started along the reloading path. I had a freind that collected and sold his departments fired brass. He asked me once what I thought a 5 gallon bucket of brass would be worth. I think he said he sold it for maybe $50 or $75. It was mixed 5.56 and pistol brass. He had way more than he needed for his own reloading.

[ReverendMeat]

If you already have experience handling firearms safely and have a decent grasp on handgun marksmanship fundamentals, I'd divert the cost of the class into a case or two of 9x19, a belt, and holster (3:00-5:00, OWB/IWB dependent on how you dress) Choice of pistol after that is a wash.

[HopetonBrown]

But classes are fun.

[1986s4]

My advice would be to look hard for a 9mm version of either the Smith or Glock. Much better for shooting comfort in a fullsize and compact, whichever you choose. Also consider that sending a Glock .40 back to Glock will cost you some postage money.
Start picking up 9mm range brass, it's all over. Just ask your fellow shooters if they want it before you do. It won't be long before you have a good supply of cleanish once fired brass.

[JTQ]

Hilton Yam comments on M&P vs Glock (this is reference to the Gen 3 era Glocks) http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=171

the M&P was designed for the .40, with steel chassis for increased rigidity and none of the durability or function issues of the Glock 22.
I think many, if not most, would recommend the Gen 4 version is you want to shoot .40S&W from a Glock.

The kydex for training would be a good recommendation as all the presentations would get old real fast out of some leather holsters. A kydex pancake that can be worn both OWB or IWB will give you a lot of options when you are early in your holster buying life. While I have some trouble wearing them IWB since I don't have a large flat area, a guy of your size would probably have better success.

I have a Raven Concealment Phantom. I'd get the regular OWB attachment and the IWB soft loops. http://rcsgear.com/shop/

The Custom Carry Concepts is a forum member here and their TUF holster offers similar function http://shop.customcarryconcepts.com/TUF-Tactically-Un-Flappable-pancake-holster-TUF.htm

Dark Star Gear is also a forum member with similar options http://darkstargear.com/kydex-gear/holsters/

Don't forget the belt…Wilderness Instructor 5-stitch Frequent Flyer http://www.thewilderness.com/tactical-belts/frequent-flyer-belt/

[BehindBlueI's]

This has been my struggle. Free case to get started with and as long as I provide the brass and it's in good shape...free reloads. Free reloads = more practice.


That's what I'd go with. Literally thousands of people who have never touched a gun before are routinely trained into competent shooters on police ranges every year using a .40.

If the "snappiness" of the .40 is such a big deal, you've got a reloader. Load up some lighter rounds. Problem solved.

[s0nspark]

The purpose is to get quality training and have this gun for CCW. Does that change anyone's opinion on OWB vs IWB?

I look at it like this: IWB for concealment and OWB for comfort at the range or around the house. Of course I carry in the same position with the same cant so the gun is essentially in the same place regardless (although the OWB holster stands off from my body a bit so it is slightly easier to get an initial grip...) I find it a bit more challenging to conceal OWB without a coat and then, when I get to work or whatever, I feel awkward if I continue to wear a coat around all day :)

My thoughts on the M&P vs Glock, full-size vs compact issue are to pick the biggest gun you can comfortably conceal (full-size works well for many with the right belt, holster and clothing) and if you are going .40 I would favor the M&P.

If you are comfortable with an IWB kydex holster, I highly recommend checking out JM Custom Kydex... many well-designed choices available and Tony is a true pleasure to work with. He is happy to tune a particular holster to your needs if you get in touch to discuss details.

Kudos on approaching this thoughtfully and for seeking out other's opinions!

[SecondsCount]

That's what I'd go with. Literally thousands of people who have never touched a gun before are routinely trained into competent shooters on police ranges every year using a .40.

If the "snappiness" of the .40 is such a big deal, you've got a reloader. Load up some lighter rounds. Problem solved.

This is what I would recommend. Your dad can adjust the loads to your liking.

For a couple years I was getting tons of free 40 brass from the local PD's. I shot a M&P40 with 155 grain cast bullets and WST powder but most any fast pistol powder in that range would work. Recoil had a slight snappiness over a nine but not enough to make a difference. Cost to reload was $80 per thousand at that time. Make sure he is using a good taper crimp as 40 seems to be more sensitive to bullet setback with fast powders.

[psalms144.1]

I should have specified this in the OP. I have shot guns for years, mainly rifle and shotgun, however I am also not a novice to handguns. I have some trigger time on my dad's Sig 229 in 40 S&W as well as single action revolvers in 44 Mag and 45 LC, although it was nothing more than plinking and approaching the round counts that a 2-3 day class would require. So I am not a complete stranger to recoil and at 6'3" #240, I manage pretty well.

The purchase in question will be my first handgun that I own with the intention of CCW. But I want to seek good training so that I am not caught with my pants down if in fact, God forbid, I ever have to use it. I don't want to revert back to plinking with pops as my only reference to save me or mine if that time comes.

Price difference seems to be a moot. But the options are limited and usually sell out quick whereas with many depts. seemingly dumping 40 for 9mm, the 40's seem to have better availability and more options.

Keep it coming guys. Again the purpose is to get quality training and have this gun for CCW. Does that change anyone's opinion on OWB vs IWB?Thanks for the background, it changes, a little, my perspective. But, I'll say this:

1. Recoil in a P229 and recoil in a G23 are two TOTALLY different animals. I know, I'm issued a P229, and have an authorized personal G23. You're a big fella and not recoil sensitive (yet), but there's a huge difference in plinking a handful of rounds and shooting 1,000 rounds in two days through a pistol with "snappy recoil." Again, I can attest to this personally. For the record, I'm close to your size, and have shot, literally, hundreds of thousands of rounds in training over the last three decades, in 9mm, 40, 45, 38 +P, etc. I'm older now, with a variety of duty-related injuries, and I would not take a G23 to a high-count training class if there were any other option. In fact, back in 2012, I did a fairly low-count two-day course with my then newly issued to me HK45CT, and the recoil control difference compared to the G19 was significant and measurable (both in performance degradation and motrin in-take over the two days). Doesn't mean you can't do it, but I'll stick with my stated opinion, as a LE firearms instructor, that a harder recoiling light pistol will push a new shooter into bad habits faster than a lighter recoiling light pistol. And, despite your experience with firearms, and no slam on you at all, you're still a new handgun shooter, based on your described experience.

2. There's a reason why the market tends to hold more used .40 S&W pistols than used 9mm pistols - because people and agencies tend to shed .40s faster than 9mms. This is called "a clue." And, just because you're buying an LE trade-in pistol doesn't mean it's not high round count - at my last posting we shot 7-10K rounds/year through our Glocks, every year. Granted, the vast majority of agencies can't meet that ammunition expense, but there are individuals out there who will and do shoot more than they're issued, if they're gun people.

3. If you're CERTAIN that you want to go the .40 SW route, and are going to limit yourself to LE-trade in options, I'd go with the S&W M&P, even though I have, frankly, no use for that family of pistols. Combined with a reliable but lower-end reload of .40, it's the least likely to end up with negative results for you from dealing with a lot of recoil management issues.

4. WRT IWB/OWB - depending on the course you were going to attend, you still might be better served with a good OWB holster - based on number of repetitions in/out of the holster. I carry OWB all day, every day on and off duty, in a good kydex pancake holster, and have no issues with concealment. You're a big fella - you won't have issues either. Again, if you're CONVINCED you have to have IWB for concealment purposes, I'd look at one of the convertible holster that you can use OWB for the range, and IWB for carry.

Best of luck!

[TGS]

I've got a P229 in 40, which is the only 40S&W I have and will ever own.

It's dramatically softer shooting (to me) than any other 40 I've fired. It's got a little more oomph than most 9mm polymer pistols, but nothing that a little pectoral muscle use can't control to acceptable levels.

Unfortunately these are outside of your budget. I don't think there's any mistake with buying a 40, and I would also go for the M&P having shot both the Smith and Glock. You've got the mindset to place training high on your list.....you're already better off than 95% of the shooters out there, regardless of whether you're shooting a 40 or a 9. Yes, the 9 may have some advantages, but you have a good low-cost ammo source and ample high-value gun choices.

Fret not.....go have some fun. Ditto the holster choices. Believe me.....or us....in that you will not own just one holster. Give it a few months and you'll have a box of holsters, so just grab something of quality that works right now and run with it. You're likely to change from your 1st holster anyway, no matter how much research you put into it. :)

[SecondsCount]

CDNN has quite a few pre-owned 40S&W pistols, including Sigs:
http://www.cdnnsports.com/firearms.html?cat=20

[TGS]

CDNN has quite a few pre-owned 40S&W pistols, including Sigs:
http://www.cdnnsports.com/firearms.html?cat=20

Whoa, stellar deals.

Looks like I need to dramatically alter the price on my P229 up for sale, as well. I didn't think to check CDNN and the likes, I had based my price off gun broker.

[45dotACP]

If you already have experience handling firearms safely and have a decent grasp on handgun marksmanship fundamentals, I'd divert the cost of the class into a case or two of 9x19, a belt, and holster (3:00-5:00, OWB/IWB dependent on how you dress) Choice of pistol after that is a wash.

This advice is good.

Too much thinking = not enough working.

Pick a gun, stick with it, work hard, practice frequently and have fun.

[JHC]

Keep in mind he has essentially free .40 ammo. Even Doc would take the .40 if the ammo was free. ;)

M&P40 followed by the G22. If that .40 supply runs dry (I bet it won't anytime soon if I know his dad and I feel like I do ;) ) it'll be time for a 9.

[BehindBlueI's]

Keep in mind he has essentially free .40 ammo. Even Doc would take the .40 if the ammo was free. ;)

Free is a compelling argument. It makes beer better, pizza tastier, and guns more attractive.


CDNN has quite a few pre-owned 40S&W pistols, including Sigs:
http://www.cdnnsports.com/firearms.html?cat=20

A buddy of mine just ordered a P229R from them today.

[Kimura]

I've seen the Springco units turn Glocks that worked into Glocks that don't

Thank you. Haven't gotten to try one yet. Actually haven't had a need to, but I'm grateful to have the information before spending my $80.00.

[HCM]

Given the info so far, I would go with the M&P in 40.

I'm in the process of converting all my gen 3 Glock 40's to 9mm via conversion barrels. I've had good luck with 40-9 conversion barrels in SIG P series guns and Glocks, however, they are also availiable for the M&P if you want the ability to use 9mm for range training use down the road.

[Gadfly]

I bought a OEM 9mm M&P barrel from Brownells for $69... Worked in my M&p 40 just fine with 9mm mags...

[Pup town]

[QUOTE=JMS;315250]Whichever class(es) you take, ping the instructor and see if you may use reloads. Many (most of the good ones...) do not allow them.

Why: Outright liability aside (KABOOM), if your gun ends up choked on homebrew ammo...they have an entire rest-of-the-class to teach, people who paid just as much for instruction as you did. He/she cannot in good conscience focus on an individual's equipment shortfalls at the expense of other paying customers, and it'd be rude/illogical of any student to think that they should (unless they have other staff on hand, who may be spared from assisting with providing instruction; not always the case).

Some teachers don't care, though. It's worth asking.[/]

Most of the goods one don't allow reloaded ammo? Like who? I don't think that's accurate.

[HCM]

OPSEC training (Bruce Gray/Jerry Jones) for one. They do allow commercial re-manufactured and even that was an issue as we had three squibs with Freedom Munitions in a recent class.

Pat Rogers / EAG Tactical is another.

Reloads and to a lesser extent steel cased ammo is fine for practice but given the time and money you invest in attending a class, it is penny wise / pound foolish to chance the potential distraction from learning. Repeated Malfunctions due to questionable ammo also interrupt the class.

[JAD]

Reloads in class just might make a good separate thread. I have been out of the pool for a while, but that didn't use to be true.

I think the difficulty of practice with .40 is about as true as the difficulty of the TDA transition. It's certainly different, but it's manageable.

[ken grant]

Police trade-in Glock either a 22 or 23
Glock Sport/Combat holster--- this is what I use most for OWB even though I have a box full of holsters
A Propper belt---- very cheap but works as well as any other gun belts I have.

http://tacticalgear.com/propper-180-belt-black-coyote

[LockedBreech]

The G23 Gen 3 is a fairly loathed gun on this forum - for some well articulated reasons, no doubt, but I will say as a sample of one that I absolutely love mine (police trade in Duxbury, MA PD 49) and I shoot very well with it after 400 rounds or so. Recoil is entirely reasonable to me - practically creampuff recoil compared to my Smith J-frame and about on par with my Beretta Cougar 8040. My opinion may change when get my G19 Gen 4 but I've had my G23 for 2 months and I'm shooting consistently better than with the Beretta PX4 I've had for 6 years or the 92FS I've had for 1 year.

I really like my G23. Guess I have to be the hipster that disagrees just to be disagreeable.

[VT1032]

Pretty good deal on .40 P226 police trade ins. To bad they have the DAK trigger, but that's replaceable.

http://www.cdnnsports.com/226-40-dak-vg-exc-ns-rail.html#.VTulBSFViko

[BehindBlueI's]

Pretty good deal on .40 P226 police trade ins. To bad they have the DAK trigger, but that's replaceable.

http://www.cdnnsports.com/226-40-dak-vg-exc-ns-rail.html#.VTulBSFViko

Also an option: http://summitgunbroker.com/p226-40.html

$150 more money, but already has the DA/SA trigger, has two magazines, and E2 grips (if that's a good thing or a bad thing is up to you).

[LockedBreech]

Pretty good deal on .40 P226 police trade ins. To bad they have the DAK trigger, but that's replaceable.

http://www.cdnnsports.com/226-40-dak-vg-exc-ns-rail.html#.VTulBSFViko

$399 for a 226! Why would you do that to me?!

[BWT]

I'd buy a Glock 19 Gen 4 (used or new) for $550.
A wilderness tactical belt for $35.
A holster from CCC or JM custom for $60-80.
Quality sights for $120.
Then I'd save for a class and ammo.

Is the offering of 1k of 40 S&W awesome? Yes.
However, don't get in a platform that is being abandoned (there's a reason used guns are everywhere) to save a few bucks. Also, 9mm is cheaper, and as .40S&W is left more and more in the dust; the ammo will only get more expensive and harder to find.

That's my advice. I've owned 3 carry guns since starting CC'ing about 5 years ago, and I was offered to start with a Glock 19 and refused. About two thousand dollars in guns/accessories and years later here I am.

God bless,

Brandon

[BehindBlueI's]

However, don't get in a platform that is being abandoned (there's a reason used guns are everywhere) to save a few bucks. Also, 9mm is cheaper, and as .40S&W is left more and more in the dust; the ammo will only get more expensive and harder to find.


Since he's got access to a reloader and brass, I doubt that's ever an issue even if you accept the premise that the .40 is a dying caliber. I'd say rumors of its demise are greatly exaggerated, personally.

[BWT]

Since he's got access to a reloader and brass, I doubt that's ever an issue even if you accept the premise that the .40 is a dying caliber. I'd say rumors of its demise are greatly exaggerated, personally.

Here's another thing to consider. There are more 9mm platforms from Glock (ETA: Also by other brands by far). If you can shoot a .40 S&W fast you can shoot a 9mm faster, and you have more bullets within the platform.

If you think the FBI among others leaving .40 S&W for 9mm, and the USMC approving the Glock 19 isn't a big deal.

To offer an alternative view on the significance of the FBI's departure. How many departments used .40 S&W before it was adopted by the FBI versus after?

Their testing after the FBI Miami shoot out was what lead to their declaration of the inadequacy of the 9mm.

The FBI was the catalyst of the wide spread adoption and common acceptance of the .40 S&W over 9mm.

The FBI's ballistic standards are what everyone else bases their standards off of, and many organizations use their data to make their purchasing decisions.

I'm not saying .40 S&W is worthless, but I am saying; do yourself a favor and buy a 9mm platform.

[BehindBlueI's]

The FBI quit carrying .357 magnum a long time ago. I can still find it at about every gun shop, I can get reloading components everywhere, etc. When was the last time they carried a .45? Right. Doesn't seem like its dried up, either.

I know the 9mm bandwagon is hot right now because the FBI has decided to go back to it. I also remember the bandwagon for the .357 Sig. I'm sure there are folks here who recall the .41 Magnum's attempts at main stream use. They'll come and go, and there'll be some new wunder cartridge in a few years. Once a caliber is as widespread as the .40 is today, it isn't going anywhere any more than .38 special/.357 magnum, 9mm, or .45 ACP are regardless of what the FBI decides to use.

[Virtuosity Student]

Thanks again to everyone for your input thusfar. Through this forum I was able to connect with another member who is also an instructor and lives relatively close by who has agreed to offer me some basic pistol training free of charge to get me started. I have since decided to utilize my training budget and take the recommendation to obtain a 9mm platform as that was really what my desire was but I couldn't get past the free 40 ammo. I was able to get a LNIB Glock 17 Gen3 from a local LEO who bought it as a blue label purchase to supplement training with his duty issue G22 only to find that he really didn't need/want it. It looks great and still has the copper grease from the factory on it. He claims that only 150 rounds have been through it. For $500 it came with XS Big Dot night sights and 200 rounds. Not bad!

Now to just get a quality holster, belt, and some more ammo and I will be ready to train. I will definitely look at the options mentioned.

[taadski]

You made a wise decision, IMO. Nice job. And it sounds like you're getting squared away with a good local watchful eye too.

As an aside, I might ask the local LEO fellow if he still has the original steel sights for the 17 and if he might be willing to include them. (hint, hint) ;)

t

[HopetonBrown]

I have DeFoor sights I'll give you if you promise to put the XS in the garbage.

[s0nspark]

I have DeFoor sights I'll give you if you promise to put the XS in the garbage.

LOL

I made the noob mistake of putting XS Big Dots on my first pistol. I felt they made it very difficult for me to nail down the fundamentals.

[BehindBlueI's]

Thanks again to everyone for your input thusfar. Through this forum I was able to connect with another member who is also an instructor and lives relatively close by who has agreed to offer me some basic pistol training free of charge to get me started. I have since decided to utilize my training budget and take the recommendation to obtain a 9mm platform as that was really what my desire was but I couldn't get past the free 40 ammo. I was able to get a LNIB Glock 17 Gen3 from a local LEO who bought it as a blue label purchase to supplement training with his duty issue G22 only to find that he really didn't need/want it. It looks great and still has the copper grease from the factory on it. He claims that only 150 rounds have been through it. For $500 it came with XS Big Dot night sights and 200 rounds. Not bad!

Now to just get a quality holster, belt, and some more ammo and I will be ready to train. I will definitely look at the options mentioned.

Knock those sights off and you'll have something. Big dots are, IMO, gimmicky trash. I'm sure someone will be along shortly to tell me how wrong I am, but if they are the type with the very shallow rear sight they are fantastic sights for distances you don't need sights for and terrible sights for distances you do need sights for. There are plenty of quality sights that draw the eye to the front, make it easier to shoot with both eyes open, and still allow precision at reasonable handgun distances.

[LittleLebowski]

I'm sure someone will be along shortly to tell me how wrong I am

Probably not going to happen on this forum.

[BWT]

The FBI quit carrying .357 magnum a long time ago. I can still find it at about every gun shop, I can get reloading components everywhere, etc. When was the last time they carried a .45? Right. Doesn't seem like its dried up, either.

I know the 9mm bandwagon is hot right now because the FBI has decided to go back to it. I also remember the bandwagon for the .357 Sig. I'm sure there are folks here who recall the .41 Magnum's attempts at main stream use. They'll come and go, and there'll be some new wunder cartridge in a few years. Once a caliber is as widespread as the .40 is today, it isn't going anywhere any more than .38 special/.357 magnum, 9mm, or .45 ACP are regardless of what the FBI decides to use.

I'll keep this short.

I'm not saying .40 S&W is done, etc. but a lot of the calibers you mention while still in circulation aren't receiving the same load development attention that 9mm enjoys.

One more reason to go 9 in my opinion. The circumstances regarding available lightly used .40 trade-ins will not be here forever just like the .357 quality revolvers aren't anymore or Garands or 1911's, etc, etc.

I wanted to steer the OP in the best long term direction for platform support; basically give advice I would want to know if I was in his position.

Anyway, he's made his decision so it's a moot point now.