Ohio cop praised for restraint, refusing to shoot suspect

[5pins]

Praise for restraint or putting himself and others in danger. I have concerns that this anti police/ use of force crap sweeping the nation is starting to cause officers to question their actions. This time it worked out but it could have been very different.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/04/18/ohio-cops-praised-for-restraint-refusing-to-shoot-suspect/?intcmp=latestnews

NEW RICHMOND, Ohio – An Ohio police officer is being praised for holding his fire even as a slaying suspect charged him, saying repeatedly, "shoot me."
WLWT-TV in Cincinnati reported (http://bit.ly/1EXuKaK) the tense moments were captured Thursday on a body camera worn by New Richmond officer Jesse Kidder.
The video shows Kidder repeatedly backpedaling and telling 27-year-old Michael Wilcox he doesn't want to shoot him.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhJKyK6VqDI

[JM Campbell]

Only time suspect complied was when the 2nd and 3rd units arrive, same time as when officer falls to his back....

I think that if units 2 and 3 did not arrive at this time someone would be in a FUT and there would still have been a public out cry.

[Chance]

This fits perfect with the Verbal aggression at gunpoint thread (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?15181-Verbal-aggression-at-gunpoint) that was here a few weeks ago.

[41magfan]

The problem with these exercises in “restraint” is the reality that waiting to see and identify what may be in the guy’s hand will put you too far behind the curve to respond in a timely manner if the threat warrants DF.

There are other things you can do besides just back pedaling, which too often results in you being on your back just as it did in this case.

[GardoneVT]

Courageous Restraint-because in real life, bad guys can be deterred with kind words like the movies.

[breakingtime91]

Courageous Restraint-because in real life, bad guys can be deterred with kind words like the movies.


the guy is a former marine and combat veteran. Pretty sure he had a hold on the situation and decided to not shoot. Was it the right decision? I'm not sure. pretty sure the guy has a better idea of what a bad guy is then the majority of other people, even other non-leo and veterans...

[GardoneVT]

...... pretty sure the guy has a better idea of what a bad guy is then the majority of other people, even other non-leo and veterans...

Past history is not a bulletproof predictor of future conduct. I witnessed a veteran choke on a FoF exercise instructed by my local PD, and in a broadly similar teaching scenario.

[Gray222]

I would like to start off saying that being in the military and doing police work are two different things.

Having said that, I will say that he put himself at risk, his fellow officers and the community.

LEO's are not here to gamble with a situation, he showed his rookie colors very clearly. He should have been taught better.

Hell, he even fell backwards trying not to shoot the guy who was clearly aggressive, it was only by the decision of the BG to not attack him at that point was he able to successfully stand up and regain his balance.

This video is going to be a good training video for what not to do.

Before the hate starts rolling in, I have been in this same situation numerous times, wanted subject, unknown if armed, would not comply with commands. This was never a "stop and wait" scenario. It is a scenario where the LEO has to take charge, have command presence and use violence of action.

[41magfan]

I don't personally believe in luck, so I'll just say that chance favored him in this case. Any COP that's done anything meaningful in his career has had chance pay him a visit on numerous occasions. Those that deny that are either liars or incredibly stupid.

[Gray222]

I don't personally believe in luck, so I'll just say that chance favored him in this case. Any COP that's done anything meaningful in his career has had chance pay him a visit on numerous occasions. Those that deny that are either liars or incredibly stupid.

You don't believe in luck but you believe in chance?

In this situation it was the unwillingness of the suspect to take further action that stopped things from escalating, no luck or chance involved.

[41magfan]

You don't believe in luck but you believe in chance?

In this situation it was the unwillingness of the suspect to take further action that stopped things from escalating, no luck or chance involved.

Perhaps I was splitting hairs. I don't disagree that his response put him at great risks.

ETA: I was just eluding to the reality that doing it "right" doesn't necessarily guarantee success anymore than doing it "wrong" guarantees failure.

[Gray222]

Perhaps I was splitting hairs. I don't disagree that his response put him at great risks.

ETA: I was just eluding to the reality that doing it "right" doesn't necessarily guarantee success anymore than doing it "wrong" guarantees failure.

Ok, I am tracking now, didnt get that from your post, but can understand what you meant now.

Nothing ever guarantees success, you can do everything right and still end up losing or failing.

I would say that his actions gave him a greater chance of failure.

[Artemas]

I don't know enough to comment whether his actions were right or wrong, but the other side of this outcome is Deputy Dinkheller.

[breakingtime91]

Past history is not a bulletproof predictor of future conduct. I witnessed a veteran choke on a FoF exercise instructed by my local PD, and in a broadly similar teaching scenario.

I don't consider this the cop choking. I may not agree with what he did but I honestly believe (besides stumbling) he knew exactly what he was doing.

[HCM]

I don't know enough to comment whether his actions were right or wrong, but the other side of this outcome is Deputy Dinkheller.

Exactly. The problem is this officer's fortuitous outcome will reinforce his I assure response with many administrators and members of the public.

[5pins]

Is it possible that the suspect was trying to lull the officer in to a false sense of security by challenging the officer to shoot him?

If he really wanted to get shot then why stop when he did?

The officer was on the ground and backup was there, he was probably only a split second away from getting his “wish”.

[breakingtime91]

Is it possible that the suspect was trying to lull the officer in to a false sense of security by challenging the officer to shoot him?

If he really wanted to get shot then why stop when he did?

The officer was on the ground and backup was there, he was probably only a split second away from getting his “wish”.

I have been thinking about this a lot today. I wonder if the dispatch stating "suicide by cop" made the cop more hesitant.

[41magfan]

I have been thinking about this a lot today. I wonder if the dispatch stating "suicide by cop" made the cop more hesitant.

Without picking this incident apart: If that was indeed the case, it should have made him MORE assertive - not less. Some suicide by COP participants are more than willing to use DF to get a reaction from responding officers and their aggressive behavior isn't always a ruse. If the first responding officer won't react like they want, the next guy up WILL be motivated to shoot if he sees his fellow officer(s) threatened.

[Clobbersaurus]

I'm glad everything worked out for the officer. One thing I will comment on is that he had excellent draw speed.

[breakingtime91]

ok so after watching the video for the fourth time, I was curious why he never went off line of the threat.

[LittleLebowski]

A guy that served with this cop said (on another forum) that he's a Marine combat vet (1/4, sounds like a grunt).

[breakingtime91]

A guy that served with this cop said (on another forum) that he's a Marine combat vet (1/4, sounds like a grunt).

pretty positive your right.

[41magfan]

I'm glad everything worked out for the officer.

Me too, and I would hope that goes without saying for anyone posting commentary about any officer’s actions done in good faith. I’ve personally taken unacceptable risks many times and not suffered any serious consequence, but that’s no reason to condone similar behavior. If you put your head in the lion’s mouth often enough, you may eventually lose it.

With that in mind, I view the constructive critique of incidents like this to be learning points for anyone so inclined.

[GardoneVT]

I have been thinking about this a lot today. I wonder if the dispatch stating "suicide by cop" made the cop more hesitant.

Perhaps the hesitation is more insidious.

As a minority, I have to confess the possession of a material advantage.Should I be involved in a Use of Force/Self Defense incident, my career and reputation wont be on the line;itll be a routine and proper investigation based on facts.

Every male police officer with light complexion has a bulls eye on his back the moment his gun comes out-so every lethal force incident now carries a risk of being the next "OMGZ RACIST COP SHOOTS UNARMED MAN " video .

I can understand why a light skinned male officer-especially one working for a department/city government that champions "Courageous Restraint" -would wait until there's absolutely zero doubt he's justified in pulling the trigger. Ive little doubt this video would be labelled "OMGZ UNARMED MENTALLY ILL MAN GUNNED DOWN IN THE STREET" had he fired when the suspect charged.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

ok so after watching the video for the fourth time, I was curious why he never went off line of the threat.

Because strange things happen when the SHTF. You forget some things, yet do others well.

[breakingtime91]

Because strange things happen when the SHTF. You forget some things, yet do others well.

ya wasnt trying to be an ass. everyone else pointed out what went "wrong", that was the only thing i saw that made me curious.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

Didn't think you were.

I've done strange things under stress. I can recall a dog charging at me years ago, and I went to draw my pistol...I distinctly remember undoing the buttons of the suit jacket very nimbly and dexterously.

Surreal. Strange and surreal.

[breakingtime91]

Didn't think you were.

I've done strange things under stress. I can recall a dog charging at me years ago, and I went to draw my pistol...I distinctly remember undoing the buttons of the suit jacket very nimbly and dexterously.

Surreal. Strange and surreal.

My bad, I know exactly where your coming from

[TAZ]

Exactly. The problem is this officer's fortuitous outcome will reinforce his I assure response with many administrators and members of the public.

This is my concern as well. 99% of the idiots watching the black box in their living rooms won't realize that this officer is alive because of another's inability or unwillingness to act rather than because of his own actions. Whatever you want to call it; fate, luck, chance...this officer is not dead or seriously injured because the perp chose not to do those things to him. NOT a good position to be in IMO.

We will see political hacks heap praise in this guy and try to coerce others to behave the same. Unfortunately, when (NOT if) some officer gets hurt in the near future showing such great restraint those same hacks won't be accepting any blame.

[Peally]

This is my concern as well. 99% of the idiots watching the black box in their living rooms won't realize that this officer is alive because of another's inability or unwillingness to act rather than because of his own actions. Whatever you want to call it; fate, luck, chance...this officer is not dead or seriously injured because the perp chose not to do those things to him. NOT a good position to be in IMO.

We will see political hacks heap praise in this guy and try to coerce others to behave the same. Unfortunately, when (NOT if) some officer gets hurt in the near future showing such great restraint those same hacks won't be accepting any blame.

Indeed, I don't blame him since he's fine, but the retards that will latch onto this type of inactivity will be damaging in the overall picture.

[Chuck Haggard]

I often tell people that fortuitous outcomes reinforce bad tactics.

Regardless of the guy being a combat vet and having honorably served his country, he left his safety and well-being in the hands of a murdering criminal.

[Nephrology]

While I am happy that everyone came out of this alive, that clearly would have been considered a good shoot. As an monday morning QB, I would have put two rounds in him before he got within 7 yards of me.

[Gadfly]

Well, the saying "if it was stupid but it worked, then its not stupid" comes to mind.

As I mention in a past "use of force" thread, I back peddled from a baseball bat. But unlike this video, I had a couple of pine trees to dance around and use as a barrier. Going straight back is the problem I see here, not necessarily the restraint. Get off line, use a barrier, dance around the car if you have to dance...

Just like you are all saying on this thread, my boss chewed my ass for letting someone get that close to me when I had no back up around. I can see what he was upset about now, but at the time, I really did not want to shoot until I had exhausted my options (like some OC). My boss was of the opinion that if one of us could end up dead, it should be the other guy, not me.

My current supervisor and a few officers just watched this with me. They were all loudly saying "why is he not putting holes in that bad guy??" My co worker stated that this video may have saved the suspects life, but it will get a future officer killed for trying to copy the actions he saw in the video.

Sadly, he is probably right.

[Chuck Haggard]

Well, the saying "if it was stupid but it worked, then its not stupid" comes to mind.

As I mention in a past "use of force" thread, I back peddled from a baseball bat. But unlike this video, I had a couple of pine trees to dance around and use as a barrier. Going straight back is the problem I see here, not necessarily the restraint. Get off line, use a barrier, dance around the car if you have to dance...

Just like you are all saying on this thread, my boss chewed my ass for letting someone get that close to me when I had no back up around. I can see what he was upset about now, but at the time, I really did not want to shoot until I had exhausted my options (like some OC). My boss was of the opinion that if one of us could end up dead, it should be the other guy, not me.

My current supervisor and a few officers just watched this with me. They were all loudly saying "why is he not putting holes in that bad guy??" My co worker stated that this video may have saved the suspects life, but it will get a future officer killed for trying to copy the actions he saw in the video.

Sadly, he is probably right.



No, if it's stupid but it worked anyway, it's still stupid.

We can agree on the rest.

[Dave Williams]

I often tell people that fortuitous outcomes reinforce bad tactics.

Regardless of the guy being a combat vet and having honorably served his country, he left his safety and well-being in the hands of a murdering criminal.

+1!

[Hambo]

When I watched this all I going through my head was the Dinkheller killing. Had the suspect been armed this video would have ended the same way.

[Chuck Haggard]

The thing about suicide by cop suspects is that many of them are VERY willing to start killing people in order to force the issue. Dying in a big blaze of perceived glory and taking a cop or two with them is a plus for these losers.

[hks95134]

The problem with these exercises in “restraint” is the reality that waiting to see and identify what may be in the guy’s hand will put you too far behind the curve to respond in a timely manner if the threat warrants DF.

There are other things you can do besides just back pedaling, which too often results in you being on your back just as it did in this case.

Well if you DON'T backpedal then you let the perp invade your safety zone and that violates Bruce Lee's principles of maintaining a safe interval.

There is a right way to backpedal and a wrong way. If you do it the right way then you won't fall on your arse.

Personally if I were the LEO I would have shot the wacko and given him his wish.

There really is little if any safe antidote to the desire for suicide by cop.