Concealed Carry in the Era of Terror

[Kyle Reese]

An eloquent piece (http://www.fpftraining.com/concealed-carry-in-the-era-of-terror-part-one/) by John Murphy of FPF Training (http://www.fpftraining.com/).

Here's Part Two (http://www.fpftraining.com/concealed-carry-in-the-era-of-terror-part-two/).

[Chuck Haggard]

I like that he is hitting on stuff that I have been teaching for years in my active-shooter classes, makes me look smart

[LittleLebowski]

John is a member of our community and I recommend his training whole heartedly.

[Irelander]

I have been thinking about this a lot lately as new atrocities unfold everyday by Islamic terrorists. I can see this happening in sleepy America. Thanks for posting. I know of several people that need to read this. The "that could never happen here" crowd.

I need to figure out how to conceal more reloads.

[RoyGBiv]

An eloquent piece (http://www.fpftraining.com/concealed-carry-in-the-era-of-terror-part-one/) by John Murphy of FPF Training (http://www.fpftraining.com/).

Here's Part Two (http://www.fpftraining.com/concealed-carry-in-the-era-of-terror-part-two/).

Good stuff. Crossposted elsewhere. Thanks.

ISIS Camp a Few Miles from Texas, Mexican Authorities Confirm (http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2015/04/isis-camp-a-few-miles-from-texas-mexican-authorities-confirm/)

[Peally]

It'll happen eventually, and it likely won't change many people's minds that aren't directly affected.

[jh9]

The article mentions Garissa University shooting. We had a shooting on my campus (what still seems like) recently, and according to the report the first shots were fired at 3:59 PM. I left my office next door at 4:01 completely oblivious to the incident and the parking lot was already full. At least 30 police cruisers and one ambulance. I realize not all responses are that punctual, but in this case I would be more worried about getting shot as one of the mistaken gunmen than a prolonged exchange of gunfire with dedicated terrorists.

Granted, this is post-Columbine US and not Mumbai or India. That said, we are not a large city by any stretch of the imagination (180k population in the city).

With regards to AK pickups, two things come to mind:

1) I hate open carry of rifles even more than I did, if that were possible

2) I would expect to be shot by first responders (see above)

This seems like something that would really need to take into account local LE.

There are some (especially more rural) departments that I simply wouldn't expect a good showing from. They don't have the manpower or resources to present like our (armed) campus police, city police and sheriff's department did. (That isn't a criticism of the individual officers in any way. Just an observation of the resources they have available.)

Meanwhile, there are others that I would absolutely content to let them handle it because I'd hate to be an oopsie for one of the first guys on the scene. Who, in my case, were there before I had any idea there was a problem.

Not trying to contradict the author. Just bringing up a point I think is worth considering.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Excellent article.

The problem is the push back to such preparedness (from employers, academic institutions, etc.):

1. Denial it will happen on the grounds of low probability of an event and/or the anxiety thinking about it would produce.
2. Political opposition:
a. hatred of guns and gun owners who might like political parties not popular in academic for instance
b. installing a fear of ethnic groups who might be terrorist and thus promoting discrimination
3. Liability fear - the institution is less liable from harm caused by terrorist than by harm caused an employee who does something bad (shooting an innocent). That's why some places won't train folks in first aid.
4. A psychological bias that says the risk of harming an innocent is more salient than the harm caused by the evil doer.
5. Opposition by some police (campus types, higher ups) - they don't want the risk of shooting an innocent or getting shot by a civilian defender who screws up. Being the only armed folk gives more control of the situation, even though it might cause more causalities.

Push back from 'gun folk'

- I already know how to shoot so I don't want to train. Thus, if some training is required to be an allowed defender, that's an insult to my warrior-ness. Also, it is unconstitutional.
- I don't carry but I have a car gun, so what do you mean I can't get it and run into battle?
- Run 200 yards - no comment with my knees.

Thanks for the links.

[JustOneGun]

A good article and some good ideas on not getting killed by the 1st responders. I tell people that an active shooter response by police is the closest thing to a seek and destroy mission that they will ever be on. You should not be holding a weapon when they encounter you. The chances of you being engaged with bullets is quite high.

Some random ideas about this type of event that I don't see talked about much in training.

As a civilian or off duty officer, decide now, if you are going to engage a terrorist/active shooter or move away. There is a very big difference on how and what you train depending on the answer.

I try not to go to large public venues such as malls, Wal-Mart, theaters and such. I used to be a people person but people ruined it for me.
If me and my family do go, I make a point of staying together. If that means I have to go bra shopping and she has to go look at hiking equipment, so be it. I don't like the chance of success in trying to find my wife during an active shooting. I just want to move away from the problem, not wade through it. It's amazing how seemingly innocent ideas like how you shop as a couple or family can mean the difference of life and death when something bad happens. I believe this is the real definition of plan ahead.

Shooting 50+ yards across a chaotic mall isn't just about missing and hitting someone down range. It's also about hitting someone who dynamically moves between you and the target while you are in the throws of tunnel vision. How will you deal with this?

Now my mini rant: Terrorism is a national problem. It is about national policy of foreign, military, immigration affairs, etc. Often those problems coming to this country were brought on and allowed by our government and the ding-a-lings that elect them. I have no illusions that anything I do at a mall will effect that in any way (even if against all odds it all goes right and I am a hero). I did my time helping people as an officer. I did my best and was usually pretty good. Now retired and as I get older my level of training is dropping off, I'm going to tactically retreat. As a civilian that means in a controlled manner to run like hell with the only plan to shoot anyone is if they are in the way of me and the only exit.

No matter what your decision is on that last topic, it should not be made lightly. It will be hard for me to move away from such a problem. For my own personal reasons I made a plan and I will be sticking to it. IMHO so should you.

[TGS]

Question for the LE here:

BaiHu and I were instructed by a retired DoD 1811/LE firearms instructor that we should use the SUL as a default stance in a shooting situation, as it is universally recognized as a "good guy" type of thing to do.....and thus, it helps our chances of not being smoked by LE upon their arrival.

Honestly, it sounds credible to me. SUL is a very specific technique that I think LE would be less likely to shoot at someone if they're using it. I would still expect to be detained until my ID/intents are verified....but, what do you guys think? Hokey pokey or a good idea?

I know that Chuck and Darryl have written before about how crucial being identified as a good guy is in these circumstances (raid jacket vs plainclothes with a badge on the belt, ect), so I wanted to ask.

[Lon]

Question for the LE here:

BaiHu and I were instructed by a retired DoD 1811/LE firearms instructor that we should use the SUL as a default stance in a shooting situation, as it is universally recognized as a "good guy" type of thing to do.....and thus, it helps our chances of not being smoked by LE upon their arrival.


I wouldn't count on it. Not every agency uses SUL and a good portion of the agencies I know don't use it. The LCD Officers there probably wouldn't recognize it as a "good guy stance".

[Peally]

I used to be a people person but people ruined it for me.

I want that bumper sticker

[Gadfly]

I wouldn't count on it. Not every agency uses SUL and a good portion of the agencies I know don't use it. The LCD Officers there probably wouldn't recognize it as a "good guy stance".

I have been teaching LEOs 15. We don't teach SUL, and we don't use that term on the range. I think it would do nothing to help.

We are plain clothed agents and we teach that if you are not clearly marked (vest or jacket), once you hear the sirens and see the marked units, holster up, hands up. Follow the marked unit commands because they don't know who you are. In the heat of the moment, belt badges and neck badges are hard to notice when guns are out...

Not saying don't help out, I am just saying the responding cops are going to be amped up and looking for threats. Don't look like a threat, follow commands, no fertive movements. No matter what you say, you are probably getting proned out and cuffed. Even an off duty cop would expect to be cuffed until responding officers verify who he is.

[ffhounddog]

You know you can train this better to Civilians than to Cops in a lot of areas. We all need the wake up call but many in LE leadership this is a "it happens over there, not here" issue.

[psalms144.1]

Question for the LE here:

BaiHu and I were instructed by a retired DoD 1811/LE firearms instructor that we should use the SUL as a default stance in a shooting situation, as it is universally recognized as a "good guy" type of thing to do.....and thus, it helps our chances of not being smoked by LE upon their arrival.

I'm a DOD 1811 FI, and I bet I could count on one hand the number of folks in my (1,000+) agency who would recognize a SUL position, or have ever seen it demonstrated.

A lot of guys get a lot of good ideas from a lot of different places, then preach them as gospel - just because they heard SUPERNINJADEATHBLOSSOMFORCEGRU-99 uses it. Not saying there's anything malicious in it, just lots of folks pass on lots of "tainted" information.

To add to this, having just sat through another iteration of our after action briefing from the WNY shooting, it's well-nigh miraculous in my opinion that there was no blue-on-blue there, given the size of the building, the confusing nature of the layout (five floors, literally thousands of square feet per floor of offices containing cube farms - total nightmare), and the fact that, until pretty late in the action, there was basically no one even trying to control the flow of people into the building. Watching the 22 minute edited version of the surveillance video, I lost count of the number of different uniforms I saw - USN Masters at Arms, Navy District Washington PD, Metro PD, Park Police, ATF SRT, our guys in plain clothes with kit, you name it. Lots of dudes brought their A-game that day, but there are lots of "over a beer" stories of "teams" meeting each other at gun point around corners, opening doors into/out of stairwells, etc.

Anyway, I'll now return you to your regularly scheduled program...

[Lon]

We are plain clothed agents and we teach that if you are not clearly marked (vest or jacket), once you hear the sirens and see the marked units, holster up, hands up. Follow the marked unit commands because they don't know who you are. In the heat of the moment, belt badges and neck badges are hard to notice when guns are out...


Yep, this is what I teach as well. Uniform trumps plain clothes every time.

[GardoneVT]

Ill share some words from my campus newspaper editorial , featuring the headline "What If ..theres an ACTIVE SHOOTER?"

"Students should feel safe and secure, as in general this is considered a safe campus.There are 13 full time officers,four part time officers and six student volunteers.All faculty and staff are trained in how to deal with an active shooter (a powerpoint which essentially says 'take a number and wait to die'),and there is a Behavioral Intervention Team in place which handles concerning situations ."


Hmm.Cant you guys just feel the safety oozing through your web browser?

[Kyle Reese]

Ill share some words from my campus newspaper editorial , featuring the headline "What If ..theres an ACTIVE SHOOTER?"

"Students should feel safe and secure, as in general this is considered a safe campus.There are 13 full time officers,four part time officers and six student volunteers.All faculty and staff are trained in how to deal with an active shooter (a powerpoint which essentially says 'take a number and wait to die'),and there is a Behavioral Intervention Team in place which handles concerning situations ."


Hmm.Cant you guys just feel the safety oozing through your web browser?

I'm sure that the Westgate Mall was quite safe, until that day in September 2013...

As trite as it sounds, complacency kills.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[TGS]

Ill share some words from my campus newspaper editorial , featuring the headline "What If ..theres an ACTIVE SHOOTER?"

"Students should feel safe and secure, as in general this is considered a safe campus.There are 13 full time officers,four part time officers and six student volunteers.All faculty and staff are trained in how to deal with an active shooter (a powerpoint which essentially says 'take a number and wait to die'),and there is a Behavioral Intervention Team in place which handles concerning situations ."


Hmm.Cant you guys just feel the safety oozing through your web browser?

Well, my idea of a Behavioral Intervention Team for an active shooter is probably a lot different than theirs...... :)

[steaknvodka]

Well, my idea of a Behavioral Intervention Team for an active shooter is probably a lot more effective than theirs...... :)

Small typo there, fixed it for ya ;)

[jh9]

it's well-nigh miraculous in my opinion that there was no blue-on-blue there ...

Which mirrors my concern.

The article points out not every first responder is going to be at the top of the game. Someone with an eotech mounted wrong or a magazine inserted backwards bothers me less that someone that identifies a threat and even though protocol is to issue commands they just start shooting at the "threat" due to adrenaline and bad training. This is also true for non-LE CCWers since most self defense training is to shoot the threat since, well, it's self-defense and that means the threat is obvious.

That doesn't mesh well with interdicting in an active shooter since there are plainclothes LE and other ordinary citizens maybe doing the exact same thing and even in the best-case they've probably only been trained to deal with self-defense (i.e. shoot the obvious threat vs IFF). In the worst case they're completely untrained and haven't experienced an adrenaline dump with a loaded gun in their hand before.

I understand the author's point, but it seems borderline suicidal to get involved here. Not because you'll get killed by a terrorist but because you'll get killed by a good guy or you might be the one to accidentally kill another good Samaritan. Does a guy opening fire on a cluster of AK wielding terrorists outside your field of vision look like someone shooting indiscriminately whilein the throes of tunnel vision? It seems like that would be an easy mistake to make...

[ffhounddog]

I get from the article not to run and gun it but to protect ones self and get out of the way. Granted I would want to get out of the way because your average run of the mill street cop is going to be amped up as they should be and they will probably not say freeze when the see me with a handgun or captured AK I took off dead muj. I just know If I have the opportunity to put down the threat I can since I am carrying and I should be thinking that.

Not to say anything negative about police training but the average qual course does not involve run and gun. It has gotten better with some courses but a lot of it is still on flat range. Took my wife to one of John's Classes and it was the first time she had to move more than a few feet while engaging targets.

With her finally shooting outside of qual, or a month before qual, has actually made her more aware and more switched on due to shooting with other officers and agents and incorporating their ttps at her work.

[Hambo]

BaiHu and I were instructed by a retired DoD 1811/LE firearms instructor that we should use the SUL as a default stance in a shooting situation, as it is universally recognized as a "good guy" type of thing to do.....and thus,it helps our chances of not being smoked by LE upon their arrival.


That should read, "guarantees we will get smoked." The officers you encounter will be those who were able to nut up and enter a mass shooting. They won't be thinking "good guy" when they see a gun.

Someday, probably soon, an "open carry" guy with an AK or AR is going to get killed by somebody with a CCW.

My own plan is not to get more involved in the fight than I have to. I'll protect me and my wife, and other innocents who want to come along, but I'm not going hunting with a pistol and no body armor while good guys hunt the area.

I'm also glad that when people read this article they will see that a J frame (or similar) and no spare ammo is not a reasonable 21st century carry option.

[LSP972]

I did my time helping people as an officer. I did my best and was usually pretty good. Now retired and as I get older my level of training is dropping off, I'm going to tactically retreat. As a civilian that means in a controlled manner to run like hell with the only plan to shoot anyone is if they are in the way of me and the only exit.



I wrestled with this for quite a while when I retired. It only took a couple of well-meaning citizens being flayed upon the altar of political correctness to make me adopt the above attitude... in spades. Taking it one step further, my SOP is: you threaten me or mine directly (or have a bomb or something that will wipe us out along with everybody else nearby), then I'm engaging. Lacking that, I'll make a good witness- whatever it is I witness while beating feet.

I have been taken to task by more than one acquaintance for this; its like they think I have some sort of moral obligation to protect them because I was a cop once. If you believe that, then I've got some prime Florida property for sale...

.

[LSP972]

I wouldn't count on it. Not every agency uses SUL and a good portion of the agencies I know don't use it. The LCD Officers there probably wouldn't recognize it as a "good guy stance".

Exactly so. Your average street copper has no clue what Sul is. If you have a weapon in your hand/s, the BEST you can hope for is to get proned out and cuffed.

If bullets are flying, you''ll very likely be shot.

.

[LittleLebowski]

The guy who mentored my CCW/pistol shooting years ago (VERY pro 2A retired BATFE agent) advised me not to have a weapon in my hand and to have my ID out and held high. His reasoning is that LE often think that's a badge and automatically do a second take instead of shooting. I am just a civilian, I don't think I'll ever have to worry about this but to me, it makes sense.

[Irelander]

you threaten me or mine directly (or have a bomb or something that will wipe us out along with everybody else nearby), then I'm engaging. Lacking that, I'll make a good witness- whatever it is I witness while beating feet.

This.

I think the take away for me from these articles is to be prepared. Be prepared to protect myself and my loved ones. Be prepared to get out of Dodge if things go down. Always keep in the back of your mind the location of exits. If you must engage, holster up and comply if you hear the cavalry coming.

[TGS]

The guy who mentored my CCW/pistol shooting years ago (VERY pro 2A retired BATFE agent) advised me not to have a weapon in my hand and to have my ID out and held high. His reasoning is that LE often think that's a badge and automatically do a second take instead of shooting. I am just a civilian, I don't think I'll ever have to worry about this but to me, it makes sense.

That absolutely makes sense.

The instructor was posing this to us as something to do if the threat was still present and you still needed a gun in your hands, FWIW.

[DI1]

I have been teaching LEOs 15. We don't teach SUL, and we don't use that term on the range. I think it would do nothing to help.

We are plain clothed agents and we teach that if you are not clearly marked (vest or jacket), once you hear the sirens and see the marked units, holster up, hands up. Follow the marked unit commands because they don't know who you are. In the heat of the moment, belt badges and neck badges are hard to notice when guns are out...


Not saying don't help out, I am just saying the responding cops are going to be amped up and looking for threats. Don't look like a threat, follow commands, no fertive movements. No matter what you say, you are probably getting proned out and cuffed. Even an off duty cop would expect to be cuffed until responding officers verify who he is.



Exactly this!
SUL is NOT recognized by many LE and is a technique not widely taught for a reason....this has been discussed previously.

[RoyGBiv]

I want that bumper sticker

http://www.zazzle.com/i_used_to_be_a_people_person_bumper_sticker-128944273755786018

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Ill share some words from my campus newspaper editorial , featuring the headline "What If ..theres an ACTIVE SHOOTER?"

"Students should feel safe and secure, as in general this is considered a safe campus.There are 13 full time officers,four part time officers and six student volunteers.All faculty and staff are trained in how to deal with an active shooter (a powerpoint which essentially says 'take a number and wait to die'),and there is a Behavioral Intervention Team in place which handles concerning situations ."

Statements like that are liability control. It will be used to say that the school is prepared in case of law suits. It will show a reasonable level of preparedness. One would not expect the school to have armed guards in place across the campus. Reactive teams are standard and thus they are covered. As I mentioned before, having folks in the target areas - like a class room - is not wanted.

[HCountyGuy]

Very good read, makes the average carrier take a lot into consideration.

I have a hypothetical to throw out:

What if the bad guys are dressed like good guys? IE walking around with clothing and equipment that would make them appear to be part of Law Enforcement? In such crisis scenarios, with multiple agencies likely responding, I could see a well-planned attack making use of the confusion that would result from the presence of multiple departments.

What training or planning is out there to combat this possibility?

[Gadfly]

What if the bad guys are dressed like good guys? IE walking around with clothing and equipment that would make them appear to be part of Law Enforcement? In such crisis scenarios, with multiple agencies likely responding, I could see a well-planned attack making use of the confusion that would result from the presence of multiple departments.

What training or planning is out there to combat this possibility?

That would be a shit sandwich of epic proportions. The guy who shot up a summer camp in Sweden a few years back dressed as a police officer. He called out to the kids that he was there to guide them to safety, and then he would shoot them when they came up to him. It is also rumored that the terrorist in the Beslan massacar in Russia had some members dressed as soldiers and police in order to get around checkpoints on the way to the school.

I am amazed no one has done this yet. Hollywood has shown the way with movies like "the Town" and "The Professional" having the crooks attempt to escape by dressing as police officers.

I can only imagine that most officers working the same shift in the same area might recognize each other after working together for a while. That would probably hold true in smaller jurisdictions, but in major areas with 5k to 10k officer, confusion would rule the day.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

How to you know that a seeming good guy or gal is not a planned bad person? Major Hassan or Amy Bishop comes to mind. Is Amy running down the all after a shooting, a good professor or the killer? There is no magic ID crystal. With sufficient planning, it can be horrendous in soft targets. That was part of the debate (silly one) about letting passengers carry on planes.

Yes, Johnny J-frame wanted to save the day BUT seemingly 'normal' folks with planning could put 5 folks with Glock 17s and extra mags on a plane too and then ...

That's quite different from having various law enforcement armed on planes.

[psalms144.1]

Someone with an eotech mounted wrong or a magazine inserted backwards bothers me less that someone that identifies a threat and even though protocol is to issue commands they just start shooting at the "threat" due to adrenaline and bad training.

That doesn't mesh well with interdicting in an active shooter since there are plainclothes LE and other ordinary citizens maybe doing the exact same thing and even in the best-case they've probably only been trained to deal with self-defense (i.e. shoot the obvious threat vs IFF). In the worst case they're completely untrained and haven't experienced an adrenaline dump with a loaded gun in their hand before.Overall, I completely agree with your final analysis - just a one point:

There is no "protocol" to issue verbal commands when the deadly force threshold has already been crossed. Verbal commands are GOOD (but not required), and ONLY if using them does not place the officer into a position of increased danger. A shooter who is actively engaged in the murder of citizens is a deadly force threat that gets dropped, immediately and unhesitatingly. Of course, this only serves to reinforce your point regarding the dangers of getting involved when off-duty, in plain clothes, or as a citizen CCW holder - you run a VERY good chance of getting smoked by responders. Once the threat is down and you've tac-reloaded (you'll remember that, won't you?), holster up, find cover, call for help while keeping your head on a swivel.

[GardoneVT]

How to you know that a seeming good guy or gal is not a planned bad person? Major Hassan.......... .

In the military its pretty easy .If an officer is packing heat on post theyre Up To No Good.


Thank goodness Clinton banned guns on military bases.:mad:

[Malamute]

Communicating with incoming cavalry would seem a good idea if possible. I dont know how fast communications travel out to the end users.

In the Westgate Mall incident, when the army finally made its way into the scene and to the front of the grocery store where the terrorists were, the plain clothes guys and armed civvies were outside the store and had exchanged some shots with the bad guys. They were fired upon by the army at first, until there was somehow shouting or communicatiing who they were. I dont think anyone was hit.

[LSP552]

We are plain clothed agents and we teach that if you are not clearly marked (vest or jacket), once you hear the sirens and see the marked units, holster up, hands up. Follow the marked unit commands because they don't know who you are. In the heat of the moment, belt badges and neck badges are hard to notice when guns are out...

Not saying don't help out, I am just saying the responding cops are going to be amped up and looking for threats. Don't look like a threat, follow commands, no fertive movements. No matter what you say, you are probably getting proned out and cuffed. Even an off duty cop would expect to be cuffed until responding officers verify who he is.

I spent a lot of years hunting bad guys in plainclothes during Mardi Gras in New Orleans. One member of the group was ALWAYS assigned as a badge guy who's only responsibility was to look for Uniforms. I've come close to being thumped by a uniform more than once and that was when they KNEW Detectives were working crime suppression in the area.

Someone not in uniform holding a gun at a mass shooting/terrorist event is asking to be shot. Fight your way out and be aware that the responding police will assume everyone is a possible threat. Follow Gadfly's advice to not look like a threat.

[BaiHu]

If one is on the phone with 911 and describes themselves and some pertinent information to help the police is one in any better of a situation? I'm thinking not until I'm cuffed, stuffed and verified, but I figured I'd ask....

[tusk212]

If one is on the phone with 911 and describes themselves and some pertinent information to help the police is one in any better of a situation? I'm thinking not until I'm cuffed, stuffed and verified, but I figured I'd ask....

Based on the level of detail I get from dispatch on standard calls, in a situation like a terrorist attack or active shooter, I would say that I would not rely on that info even getting passed on to front line guys responding.

[KeeFus]

If one is on the phone with 911 and describes themselves and some pertinent information to help the police is one in any better of a situation? I'm thinking not until I'm cuffed, stuffed and verified, but I figured I'd ask....

Seriously, dont rely on a tele-communicator to relay such important info to responding officers. Even with our CAD now in cars they do not enter a lot of important info that responding units need, much less put it out over the air. I can not count all the times they actually hang up with the callers on important calls where we need additional info. The usual response from them when we ask for more info is, "stand by, we are calling the complainant back..." When precious few seconds/minutes are on the line calling a complainant back, hoping they'll answer is crazy...and yet it happens all the time on just standard calls like drunk drivers where direction of travel, tag info, description of driver, etc are important. In an actual high stress environment...forget about it.

[Dropkick]

I spent a lot of years hunting bad guys in plainclothes during Mardi Gras in New Orleans. One member of the group was ALWAYS assigned as a badge guy who's only responsibility was to look for Uniforms. I've come close to being thumped by a uniform more than once and that was when they KNEW Detectives were working crime suppression in the area.

Please excuse the thread drift...
LSP552, are you saying that one of the guys on the undercover team was basically a look-out for uniformed police? If so, there is a kind of funny irony to that. :cool:
So was the "badge guy" the only one carrying a badge, and is responsible for informing the uniforms that someone is working UC without a badge? ..or..??

[LSP972]

I would not rely on that info even getting passed on to front line guys responding.

Exactly so. And even if it was, a smart cop is not going to to take a chance on somebody he doesn't KNOW is a friendly.

.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I wrote an article for Concealed Carry magazine and it quoted a woman who friend was being killed by a chimpanzee. You might have seen the case, it was horrible. The woman was trying to tell the dispatcher to send someone with a gun to kill the chimp. The dispatcher kept asking who had the gun and communicated that someone had a gun to the officers.

[Irelander]

I've heard mention of armed citizens and IDPA guys involved in rescuing people at the Westgate Mall and battling the terrorists. Where can I read more about that?

[Malamute]

I've heard mention of armed citizens and IDPA guys involved in rescuing people at the Westgate Mall and battling the terrorists. Where can I read more about that?

There was a thread here that had some info. I googled some at the time also.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?9650-IDPA-Mall-Cop-Defends-Westgate-Mall-in-Nairobi-Kenya&highlight=westgate

[BaiHu]

I wrote an article for Concealed Carry magazine and it quoted a woman who friend was being killed by a chimpanzee. You might have seen the case, it was horrible. The woman was trying to tell the dispatcher to send someone with a gun to kill the chimp. The dispatcher kept asking who had the gun and communicated that someone had a gun to the officers.

"...send someone with a gun to kill the chimp."

"Someone with a gun is trying to kill a pimp." Pretty easy mistake to make. Maybe the dispatcher thought there's no point in saving the pimp?

Seriously, dont rely on a tele-communicator to relay such important info to responding officers. Even with our CAD now in cars they do not enter a lot of important info that responding units need, much less put it out over the air. I can not count all the times they actually hang up with the callers on important calls where we need additional info. The usual response from them when we ask for more info is, "stand by, we are calling the complainant back..." When precious few seconds/minutes are on the line calling a complainant back, hoping they'll answer is crazy...and yet it happens all the time on just standard calls like drunk drivers where direction of travel, tag info, description of driver, etc are important. In an actual high stress environment...forget about it.
I knew it was wishful thinking, but I didn't realize how screwey the dispatch "system" was. I am a sad panda. Especially knowing our labor participation rate, you'd think you could convince good people to come on board.

[LSP552]

Please excuse the thread drift...
LSP552, are you saying that one of the guys on the undercover team was basically a look-out for uniformed police? If so, there is a kind of funny irony to that. :cool:
So was the "badge guy" the only one carrying a badge, and is responsible for informing the uniforms that someone is working UC without a badge? ..or..??

Everyone has a badge, but when you are fighting with assholes, someone has to be looking for responding uniforms and screaming Police. The uniforms just see a fight, not an arrest. Hickory shampoo bad.....unless you are giving it.

You really can't engage and watch your back at the same time.

[jh9]

Verbal commands are GOOD (but not required), and ONLY if using them does not place the officer into a position of increased danger. A shooter who is actively engaged in the murder of citizens is a deadly force threat that gets dropped, immediately and unhesitatingly.

Good to know. (It makes more sense, to boot.)


you run a VERY good chance of getting smoked by responders.

What's the Eastwood line?

"A man's got to know his limitations."

[koj11]

Seriously, dont rely on a tele-communicator to relay such important info to responding officers. Even with our CAD now in cars they do not enter a lot of important info that responding units need, much less put it out over the air. I can not count all the times they actually hang up with the callers on important calls where we need additional info. The usual response from them when we ask for more info is, "stand by, we are calling the complainant back..." When precious few seconds/minutes are on the line calling a complainant back, hoping they'll answer is crazy...and yet it happens all the time on just standard calls like drunk drivers where direction of travel, tag info, description of driver, etc are important. In an actual high stress environment...forget about it.

I can't speak for anyone else, but as an LE dispatcher of 15 years, I can say unequivocally that this isn't the way it goes at my agency. We would absolutely 100% of the time get your description if you're a good guy on the scene with a gun and that info would go out to responding units every single time before they arrive on scene.

I also agree with just about everyone here that going on an ISIS hunt as a citizen in the middle of an active shooter incident is a very bad idea. Shelter in place if you absolutely must, but hot footing it to the nearest exit, especially if you're with your family, is a far better idea.

[TCinVA]

Very good read, makes the average carrier take a lot into consideration.

I have a hypothetical to throw out:

What if the bad guys are dressed like good guys? IE walking around with clothing and equipment that would make them appear to be part of Law Enforcement? In such crisis scenarios, with multiple agencies likely responding, I could see a well-planned attack making use of the confusion that would result from the presence of multiple departments.

What training or planning is out there to combat this possibility?

Lots of police and fire fighter uniforms have been stolen from lots of drycleaners in the last 10 years.

A police officer in a uniform that doesn't look quite right with an AK...well...

[Lomshek]

I wrote an article for Concealed Carry magazine and it quoted a woman who friend was being killed by a chimpanzee. You might have seen the case, it was horrible. The woman was trying to tell the dispatcher to send someone with a gun to kill the chimp. The dispatcher kept asking who had the gun and communicated that someone had a gun to the officers.

Me - "Tell responding officers I have a gun and am wearing a red polo and blue jeans"

Dispatch - "Man with a gun is wearing a red polo and blue jeans"

I'm thinking adding to the confusion isn't going to help. Probably best to just do what you need to do to live and then get the gun put away as soon as possible.

[Hambo]

If one is on the phone with 911 and describes themselves and some pertinent information to help the police is one in any better of a situation? I'm thinking not until I'm cuffed, stuffed and verified, but I figured I'd ask....

In the type of incident we're talking about dispatch centers will be flooded with calls. You would be betting your life that the call taker/dispatcher gets the right info out and that the cop with you in his sights hears it.

[voodoo_man]

Sometimes being covert, is more important than being overt.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

NBC had a fairly neutral report on campus carry. Described the issue for protection and then had equal pros and cons. Interestingly, I was parking today near a NPE store (I was going into the Target next door). An old coot comes out the evil store with a big old black fanny pack and his wallet clearly in his back pocket. The kale crowd probably didn't understand, but the coot is quite silly.

[BJXDS]

Excellent article.

The problem is the push back to such preparedness (from employers, academic institutions, etc.):

1. Denial it will happen on the grounds of low probability of an event and/or the anxiety thinking about it would produce.
2. Political opposition:
a. hatred of guns and gun owners who might like political parties not popular in academic for instance
b. installing a fear of ethnic groups who might be terrorist and thus promoting discrimination
3. Liability fear - the institution is less liable from harm caused by terrorist than by harm caused an employee who does something bad (shooting an innocent). That's why some places won't train folks in first aid.
4. A psychological bias that says the risk of harming an innocent is more salient than the harm caused by the evil doer.
5. Opposition by some police (campus types, higher ups) - they don't want the risk of shooting an innocent or getting shot by a civilian defender who screws up. Being the only armed folk gives more control of the situation, even though it might cause more causalities.

Push back from 'gun folk'

- I already know how to shoot so I don't want to train. Thus, if some training is required to be an allowed defender, that's an insult to my warrior-ness. Also, it is unconstitutional.
- I don't carry but I have a car gun, so what do you mean I can't get it and run into battle?
- Run 200 yards - no comment with my knees.

Thanks for the links.
+1
Many corporate and government agencies provide Active shooter training. basically they teach to run and hide under a desk and pray, wait your not allowed to pray, Hope the bad guy does not get to you. Most of those place you can't carry anyway so...

Each individual must decide what they are willing and prepared to do in such an event.

[TAZ]

I have thought about this over the years and have pretty much come to the same conclusion as others. I'm NOT superduperdeltadevgru so I'm going to be doing whatever it takes to beat feet to safety. If that means running with my family then so be it. If that means shooting a bad guy trying to kill men and mine and then running so be it.

It's kind of like the inner circle of a protective detail. It's not very often that those guys stand and fight. They are armed and capable, but they have better ways to keep their employer safe. Know where the exits are, stay together so you can move as a unit and when the time comes get the heck out of dodge. The best way to not get shot is to NOT be where the bullets are flying. Pretty simple and it applies to bullets from good guys and bad guys equally. As a civilian I am under no obligation to stay and fight. I will do so if that is the best way to keep me and mine safe, but that's the only reason. Some may call me unethical, immoral or even an asshole, and I'm OK with that.

[Kyle Reese]

I have thought about this over the years and have pretty much come to the same conclusion as others. I'm NOT superduperdeltadevgru so I'm going to be doing whatever it takes to beat feet to safety. If that means running with my family then so be it. If that means shooting a bad guy trying to kill men and mine and then running so be it.

It's kind of like the inner circle of a protective detail. It's not very often that those guys stand and fight. They are armed and capable, but they have better ways to keep their employer safe. Know where the exits are, stay together so you can move as a unit and when the time comes get the heck out of dodge. The best way to not get shot is to NOT be where the bullets are flying. Pretty simple and it applies to bullets from good guys and bad guys equally. As a civilian I am under no obligation to stay and fight. I will do so if that is the best way to keep me and mine safe, but that's the only reason. Some may call me unethical, immoral or even an asshole, and I'm OK with that.

You're just practical and a realist. Nothing at all wrong with that. If I'm at a venue with my wife and shit goes sideways (West Gate, etc), I'm grabbing her and we're hauling ass outta there.

[Malamute]

Lots of police and fire fighter uniforms have been stolen from lots of drycleaners in the last 10 years.

A police officer in a uniform that doesn't look quite right with an AK...well...


...or with an AR. No reason they wouldnt use them to want to blend in.

[StraitR]

You're just practical and a realist. Nothing at all wrong with that. If I'm at a venue with my wife and shit goes sideways (West Gate, etc), I'm grabbing her and we're hauling ass outta there.

Obviously, there are more potential variables in an active shooter scenario than there are unique fingerprints in the world, but I'm in agreement with Fred.

This is a topic that I've pondered pretty often, not because I want any part of it, ever, but because as much as I try to be around, I can't always be with my family when they go to Target or the grocery store. So when I see stories like West Gate, I can't forget that the victims or potential victims are someone's family too, and I would certainly want anyone with the means to stop an attack on my family to do so if I'm not around. That said, I'd really prefer to avoid getting shot by LE responders, but I'd be hard pressed to sit around and let some jackwagon shoot kids. Ultimately, my first responsibility is to my family, so they'll come first, and I expect the same from others.

The thought of it all eats away at my soul, tbh.

[Irelander]

I hear ya. Just reading about the terrorists indiscriminately killing kids makes my blood boil :mad:. Those Muslim terrorists are the evil of evils. Not sure I could turn the other way if I saw that happening right in front of me.

[Nephrology]

I hear ya. Just reading about the terrorists indiscriminately killing kids makes my blood boil :mad:. Those Muslim terrorists are the evil of evils. Not sure I could turn the other way if I saw that happening right in front of me.

If there is a shooter between me and the exit - or, hell, at least within easy eyeshot of me - I would draw and take the shot.

However, I think the idea of "running towards the gunfire" for the average person is a terrible idea. The odds of me doing a lick of good against someone with a rifle in a large open area are next to zero, and the odds of me hitting a bystander and/or getting shot and killed by the shooter or LEOs are quite good.

I am realistic about my ability with a pistol. I think that plate racks and cardboard USPSA targets (both shoots and no shoots...) have good reason to fear me. Your average goon with a felonious desire for my wallet probably will regret picking me for prey. However, committed murderers with rifles are simply not opponents I am willing to pick a fight with unless they bring the fight to me - in which case my death is already very much on the table. I think I can do much more good by providing first aid to victims on the scene (medical student) and assisting EMS first responders than I would trying to take on a shooter with an AK with my Glock 19. As much as I wish I had the training and resources to respond to such violence with violence, I honestly have trouble envisioning myself realistically being a part of the solution rather than a part of the problem in an active shooter scenario.

As an aside - I really dislike the fixation on Islam and domestic US violence. I think there is plenty about an active shooter scenario that can be discussed without feeding already rampant xenophobia in our community. It doesn't exactly make us out to look like the sort of people that others want to be carrying guns, and is not a healthy mental practice either.

[Malamute]

As an aside - I really dislike the fixation on Islam and domestic US violence. I think there is plenty about an active shooter scenario that can be discussed without feeding already rampant xenophobia in our community. It doesn't exactly make us out to look like the sort of people that others want to be carrying guns, and is not a healthy mental practice either.


While its true that most current terrorist threats are from Islamic radicals, that doesnt mean that all Muslims are radical or terrorists. Some dont get that difference. One of the people that did run to the guns in Westgate and help people get out was a Muslim guy. The majority of people being picked on by ISIS in Syria and Iraq are Muslim, as are the majority of the people doing the best work at hacking them down to size.

[psalms144.1]

And then, there's the discussion I had today at a meeting I coordinated between our local first responders and the "leadership" of the installation where I work. Y'all would be proud of my restraint in not throat punching the "Installation Commander" who insisted that, in accordance with his policy, in the event of an active shooter in our building, he would lock down all entrances (they're on magnetic locks) and have the exterior gates closed and locked.

It took a LONG time to convince him that all that would accomplish was locking potential victims IN the building with the shooter. All he kept circling around to was "I'm the Commander. It's my responsibility to ensure the security of this facility!" For a while, I thought the first responders and I were just going to walk out. Eventually, one of the other military guys in the room (a senior Enlisted guy) managed to convince him that he's responsible for the people who work in his building as well. I swear, you can't make this kitten up.

Of course, it might have had something to do with me asking the ranking police officer there, part of the local SWAT, what his breaching capabilities were, since they would have to breach their way into the building...

I love my job, I love my job, I love my job...

[GardoneVT]

If there is a shooter between me and the exit - or, hell, at least within easy eyeshot of me - I would draw and take the shot.

However, I think the idea of "running towards the gunfire" for the average person is a terrible idea.

Agreed. If I were to adopt the Col. Jeff Cooper "what IF" philosophy, as in what if I were the BG planning a mass attack along the lines of what's been seen in the news, i'd be sure to seed the crowd with a sleeper agent. One 'shopper' or 'teacher' who looks like another hostage or victim, there to ensure any armed & plainclothed individuals are dealt with.

[Chuck Haggard]

http://www.personaldefenseworld.com/2015/03/10-cases-where-an-armed-citizen-took-down-an-active-shooter/#10-cases-where-an-armed-citizen-took-down-an-active-shooter-2

http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/a-glimpse-of-most-current-rapid-mass-murder-stats

and my thoughts have not changed any since I wrote this bit a few years ago;
http://www.thetacticalwire.com/feature.html?featureID=3593

[voodoo_man]

http://www.personaldefenseworld.com/2015/03/10-cases-where-an-armed-citizen-took-down-an-active-shooter/#10-cases-where-an-armed-citizen-took-down-an-active-shooter-2

http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/a-glimpse-of-most-current-rapid-mass-murder-stats

and my thoughts have note changed any since I wrote this bit a few years ago;
http://www.thetacticalwire.com/feature.html?featureID=3593

good links.

I have told the guys I work with that the sooner you inject yourself into this type of situation the sooner itll end and the more lives youll save.

[MRW]

Another good incident to look at is the Boston Marathon manhunt and what happened after the MIT officer was killed. A civilian concealed carry holder injecting themselves into the middle of that mess would have run a serious risk of getting hurt or killed by the officers responding. They were lucky more LEO's weren't hurt or killed by blue on blue shootings and to the best of my knowledge, everyone responding to that was in uniform.

Part of my job involves community outreach to civilians about what to do in active shooter event. I always encourage them to focus on getting out alive and leave the searching and stopping of the the threat to trained LEO's especially when it comes to possible terrorist events with multiple attackers and IEDs. Regardless if you are a civilian or LEO, preparation is important. I try to push that out too. As a society, more of these are coming our way.

[Le Français]

I recently visited Smithsonian museums in D.C. while carrying, and at one of the museums the security supervisor who let me in asked that if something went down, I refrain from participating because I might be mistaken for an attacker.

His (very sensible) request reminded me of this thread.

[breakingtime91]

I had an interesting conversation about all things terrorism recently and some one asserted a pretty good point. One of the many reason we haven't had more "lone" terrorist attacks is the fact that unlike places like france, we have a lot of armed cops, armed former veterans, and armed legal citizens. This adds a factor that terrorists have to take in that makes it more difficult for them to carry out a "successful" attack. Do I think its the end all be all? Nope. Do I think it could contribute to the the fact we haven't had some like france happen since ISIS started gaining traction.. probably hasn't hurt

[41magfan]

I had an interesting conversation about all things terrorism recently and some one asserted a pretty good point. One of the many reason we haven't had more "lone" terrorist attacks is the fact that unlike places like france, we have a lot of armed cops, armed former veterans, and armed legal citizens. This adds a factor that terrorists have to take in that makes it more difficult for them to carry out a "successful" attack. Do I think its the end all be all? Nope. Do I think it could contribute to the the fact we haven't had some like france happen since ISIS started gaining traction.. probably hasn't hurt

Along those lines, here's an interesting compilation of stats on potential gun toters:

http://crimepreventionresearchcenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Concealed-Carry-Permit-Holders-Across-the-United-States.pdf

[BJXDS]

I recently visited Smithsonian museums in D.C. while carrying, and at one of the museums the security supervisor who let me in asked that if something went down, I refrain from participating because I might be mistaken for an attacker.

His (very sensible) request reminded me of this thread.

How were you able to carry in DC?

BUT In any case. I hope you guys are right about the lone terrorist and the armed cops, vets, and legal citizens, but I don't think they really give a F**K. IMHO The only thing that really stops Terrorist/NUTS is the fact that they really don't want to do something yet. If an individual or group really wanted to cause extreme damage, and didn't care about getting caught or killed, it really would not be that hard.

Why are the events in Baltimore not considered domestic terrorism or hate crimes?? They had to cancel a Baseball game, and businesses in the financial district, which just so happen to be located on "The BLOCK" have closed early. The animals are setting fires and attacking the 1st responders when they show up. I have also heard police from other counties are heading that way to assist. It won't be long until the looting starts if it has not already. I doubt if the police will be able to offer much assistance to an individual if needed.

This is a text book case of concealed carry in the Error of Terror or better yet an AR with multiple loaded PMags. If you were caught in the middle of that SHIT you may not have a choice.

[Hambo]

I had an interesting conversation about all things terrorism recently and some one asserted a pretty good point. One of the many reason we haven't had more "lone" terrorist attacks is the fact that unlike places like france, we have a lot of armed cops, armed former veterans, and armed legal citizens. This adds a factor that terrorists have to take in that makes it more difficult for them to carry out a "successful" attack. Do I think its the end all be all? Nope. Do I think it could contribute to the the fact we haven't had some like france happen since ISIS started gaining traction.. probably hasn't hurt

That hasn't stopped any number of lone active shooters in the US. For that matter it hasn't stopped armed robberies. Why would it stop six guys intent on mayhem and martyrdom armed with AKs?

[Le Français]

How were you able to carry in DC?

I'm a police officer, and I was carrying off duty under the federal Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act.

[breakingtime91]

That hasn't stopped any number of lone active shooters in the US. For that matter it hasn't stopped armed robberies. Why would it stop six guys intent on mayhem and martyrdom armed with AKs?

I do not make the same correlation with armed robberies and mass shootings so I will not address that. If you do research (I wrote a college paper/speech on why gun free zones are ineffective) you will find that most active shooters target areas where they are least likely to meet resistance. This is not unlike terrorists, especially the ones you describe. This is also why in South Helmand we mostly would have to respond to ANA or the border police being ambushed, the Taliban would often target them because they offered a easier target and the juice was worth the squeeze. I even state in my post that I do not believe this is the only reason, but I believe there is an argument to be made that it does little to hurt and does help.

[BJXDS]

I'm a police officer, and I was carrying off duty under the federal Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act.

I should have known that. Thanks for your service ON and OFF duty

[Le Français]

I should have known that. Thanks for your service ON and OFF duty
While I truly appreciate the sentiment, frankly when off-duty the gun is there primarily to defend against immediate threats to myself and/or loved ones, not to serve the public.

This thread has brought up good reasons for such an approach (responsibility to secure loved ones, risk of blue-on-blue shooting, lack of armor, lack of coordination with on-duty responders, etc.)

[GardoneVT]

Along those lines, here's an interesting compilation of stats on potential gun toters:

http://crimepreventionresearchcenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Concealed-Carry-Permit-Holders-Across-the-United-States.pdf

I don't accept that premise.There are places in America where concealed carry by non LE is effectively illegal. Urban New Jersey isn't much different from France in this area.

[breakingtime91]

I don't accept that premise.There are places in America where concealed carry by non LE is effectively illegal. Urban New Jersey isn't much different from France in this area.

Piggy backing off of this, that is why I believe cities such as New Jersey and New York have to be more on guard then say Helena, Montana. It unfortunate that average men and women are effectively defenseless until first res-ponders arrive.