Register position - which is best?

[Clobbersaurus]

I hope I'm not stepping out of my lane here, as that is not my intention.

Reading this thread over the last several days; https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?15586-trigger-finger-safety
got me thinking about register positions as a physical means to reduce the chance of getting on the trigger early.

The thread above and the thread about safety in the competition forum, provided much food for thought. I believe the general consensus from those threads is that getting on the trigger early is bad, most of the time, maybe.:D However, what I didn't see was much discussion about what one can do to mitigate the risk of getting on the trigger too early. I believe there are physical things we can do to help prevent getting on the trigger too early and one of them is a good register position out of the holster. I thought that perhaps we could use this thread to discuss the issue.

I took some pics (sorry for the crappy quality) of some possible register positions and was wondering what the members here use and why?

1) Ejection Port/barrel
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r151/clobbersauras/DSC03813_zpsyjjiddr6.jpg (http://s143.photobucket.com/user/clobbersauras/media/DSC03813_zpsyjjiddr6.jpg.html)

2) Top edge of the slide
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r151/clobbersauras/DSC03804_zpskrex3sxn.jpg (http://s143.photobucket.com/user/clobbersauras/media/DSC03804_zpskrex3sxn.jpg.html)

3) Slide flat
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r151/clobbersauras/DSC03805_zpspkomxzny.jpg (http://s143.photobucket.com/user/clobbersauras/media/DSC03805_zpspkomxzny.jpg.html)

4) Frame
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r151/clobbersauras/DSC03807_zpsmr4jbpbr.jpg (http://s143.photobucket.com/user/clobbersauras/media/DSC03807_zpsmr4jbpbr.jpg.html)

5) Trigger guard
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r151/clobbersauras/DSC03808_zpsbwhswdfa.jpg (http://s143.photobucket.com/user/clobbersauras/media/DSC03808_zpsbwhswdfa.jpg.html)

6) Take down button
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r151/clobbersauras/DSC03809_zpsgr9mxhfi.jpg (http://s143.photobucket.com/user/clobbersauras/media/DSC03809_zpsgr9mxhfi.jpg.html)

Personally, I use photo 2 and 3 out of the holster. I really try to feel the top edge of the slide as I draw out of the holster. If I am really trying to go fast, it's more of a #3 and I feel for the flat of the slide. Reloads are physically more difficult to register at #2 or 3 and it usually becomes a #4 for me, until I can re-establish my grip. I'm not happy about this, and I'm working on a solution.

I don't register on #1 with my Beretta (or the tip of my finger in the ejection port on my Glock), it pushes my hand away from the beaver tail, and I can't get my finger in that position quickly without compromising my master grip.

I've read that some believe the slide/ejection port registers are slower on the draw, and not suitable for gaming, but I tend to believe that may be false, given my experimentation with it. I'm not that fast so take that for what it's worth. I do think the higher register positions don't allow you the time to get on the trigger so early, especially when going fast, which I tend to think is a really good thing.

I guess the questions about register position become:

1) How much prep time do you need on the trigger, once you have made the decision to fire?

2) Is a higher register position detrimental to speed?

3) Is a higher register position any safer?


I hope some SME's will post with their thoughts.

[JV_]

I don't see much difference between #1 and #2. I prefer the ejection port register, but it's somewhat painful for me so I end up using #4 - the frame.

[Kyle Reese]

# 2 for me.

[orionz06]

As high as I can go, generally the port or above on a Glock.

[ST911]

Excerpt from FSI newsletter #278 on the effects of finger placement and ready positions. There are no real surprises, especially the notion that practice improves performance and early recognition of threats provides options. Still, it's always handy to have a basis and hard numbers to answer why a method is chosen or not.

Many are not aware of the excellent work the Force Science Institute does. A subscription to their newsletter is available here, and worthwhile reading: http://www.forcescience.org/


I. New study: How much do finger placement & ready position matter?

In terms of reacting fast to a sudden deadly threat, does it matter how you carry an unholstered or unslung weapon or where you rest your trigger finger before making the decision to shoot?

In other words, does any one of the various ready positions commonly taught in police firearms training really give you a significant edge in response time?

Results of a two-part study by the Force Science Institute reported in the current issue of the peer-reviewed journal Law Enforcement Executive Forum provide some answers that may surprise you if you're a strong advocate for particular positioning.

"The findings have implications for training and can also be of critical use to investigators in certain officer-involved shootings," says Dr. Bill Lewinski, FSI's executive director and lead researcher in the study, believed to be the first of its kind in police circles.

The full study, including photographs of positions analyzed and detailed statistical tables, is scheduled to be published soon in the Law Enforcement Executive Forum. Their Web address is: http://iletsbeiforumjournal.com/

Here are the highlights:

PART 1: HANDGUN FINGER PLACEMENT. "The first, and seemingly most basic, position officers learn during their firearms training," the researchers write, "is where to index, or place, their finger outside of the trigger well when handling their gun to minimize the risk" of accidental or premature discharge while still allowing the fastest possible response to a deadly threat.

With 52 federal officer volunteers from the Dept. of Homeland Security, Lewinski's team tested four handgun finger-indexing positions "predominately taught and practiced" by LEOs and military personnel:

• the index finger points straight ahead, resting across the trigger guard
• essentially the same position, but with the finger bent slightly so the tip rests against the vertical side of the trigger guard
• the pad of the straight index finger rests slightly above the trigger guard, on the pistol's frame
• the straight finger is angled more sharply upward, with the pad resting on the gun's slide.

On a hot range, each participant fired from each finger position three times with his or her duty handgun. Once a member of the research team gave a signal, the officers could shoot whenever they wanted. They were instructed to move their finger to the trigger as fast as they could and, after firing, to wait for at least five seconds between rounds to assure that the finger was repositioned properly before the next shot.

The shooting was captured by high-speed digital cameras that allowed for precise, frame-by-frame computer analysis later to measure the time in hundredths of a second from the initial movement of the finger to its contact with the trigger.

RESULTS. "Until this analysis was completed, it was unknown what time differences might exist between these various positions and whether any position had a significant benefit of speed," Lewinski told Force Science News.

What is now known?

"[C]ontrary to what many officers are commonly taught," the researchers report, "there is no significant difference in contact time" between the various finger-indexing positions--with one exception: Positioning the finger to rest on the pistol slide is statistically significantly slower than the other options.

Starting from that position, the officers on average "were roughly 0.08 second slower in making contact with the trigger and over 0.10 second [slower] to fire than all other positions.... While many law enforcement officers argue that indexing the finger on the trigger guard, curved or straight, is faster than on the frame, the difference in mean time to trigger contact [among positions other than the slide position] is less than 0.04 second."

That difference, Lewinski says, "would likely be inconsequential in a gunfight."

PART 2: TACTICAL READY POSITIONS. Another area that "little to no research has examined" prior to the new study is the amount of time it takes officers to react to a threat and move their weapon from an unholstered ready position to a firing position. "Therefore," the researchers state, "it is unknown what positions may most benefit officers with the quickest responses during deadly use-of-force situations."

To fill that informational void, Lewinski's team tested 68 volunteers from the Los Angeles PD at the department's training facility. All were measured for how fast they could fire their duty handgun from various starting positions; nine were also checked for speed with a Remington 870 shotgun.

The drawn-handgun ready positions, commonly trained for use "when entering a threatening situation," included:

• the Bootleg, where the pistol is held one-handed, pointing down and slightly concealed behind the officer's leg

• the Belt Tuck, where the gun is held with two hands, pulled in close to the body at navel level
• the Close-Ready, with the gun pulled in somewhat higher than the beltline with the muzzle pointed slightly down
• the High-Ready, with the gun thrust forward in an isosceles grip at shoulder height, muzzle slightly depressed
• the Low-Ready, same grip but with the arms and gun pointing down at about a 45-degree angle
• the High-Guard, gun pointing up and held single-handed beside an officer's head, a position widely trained in England but not generally favored in the US (except in Hollywood entertainment productions!).

Three shotgun ready positions were tested:

• the traditional Port carry
• the High-Ready, with the butt against the dominant-side hip and the barrel pointing up at about a 45-degree angle
• the Low-Ready, with the weapon shouldered and the barrel pointing down at 45 degrees.

Participating officers were told to bring their weapon to a shooting position and fire as fast as they could, once they heard a signal from a shot-timer. Their responses, including auditory reaction time as well as movement time, were measured to within 0.01 second accuracy.

RESULTS. When officers took time to aim, they were fastest in firing a handgun when starting their movement from the High-Ready position, at an average of 0.83 second. This contrasted sharply, for example, with the Bootleg and High-Guard positions, where the respective averages were 1.32 and 1.13 seconds. "A suspect can fire several rounds into you in that amount of time, while you're just getting into position to defend yourself," Lewinski says.

"Without aiming," the researchers report, "officers moving from the Low-Ready position were fastest overall, firing in an average time of 0.64 second."

"Overall," Lewinski says, "the handgun timings indicate that the closer the ready position is to a final firing position, the faster the officer is likely to be in getting off his first round."

While constituting no more than a pilot sampling, the handful of shotgun timings showed that officers were fastest when starting from the High-Ready position, 0.84 second on average. The Low-Ready average was 0.99, Port 1.28 seconds.

The fastest firing from the High-Ready position was about 0.60 second, but "unfortunately," the researchers write, "some officers took well over 1.0 second to fire from each of the shotgun positions, leaving far too much opportunity for an assailant to attack." Lack of practice was blamed for this deficiency.

IMPLICATIONS. "As with any skill, regular, high amounts of repetition in practice at high speeds will greatly benefit officers in reacting and moving as quickly as possible," the researchers write. Indeed, Lewinski estimates that with diligent practice, you can cut your times for getting your finger on the trigger and your weapon on target by at least 50%.

So far as finger placement is concerned, given the study finding of negligible differences, he suggests that you pick whatever indexing position is most comfortable for you and practice improving your movement speed from there. With a rifle or shotgun, he recommends that you practice moving from each of the ready positions because each may be tactically desirable, depending on the circumstances you face.

Lewinski believes, however, that more important than improving the mechanics of weaponcraft is teaching officers to read potentially hazard scenarios early on, so they can detect threat cues quicker and better anticipate an adversary's actions, thereby getting ahead of the reactionary curve before the crisis point. "Without that skill," he says, "they're likely to end up so far behind the action that things like the most desirable finger indexing and ready positioning won't really matter."

For investigators, he says that consulting some of the time measurements revealed in this study can help determine the dynamics of certain officer-involved shootings.

For example, "we now know the average times it takes for an officer to move from a finger position or from a ready posture once he or she has made a decision to shoot. In that time before the officer can actually fire, a suspect's position can change substantially, causing the officer's rounds to impact in unanticipated places, like the suspect's back, for instance.

"The more investigators understand about the fractional time frames within a shooting event, the better they can accurately explain what really happened," Lewinski says.

LOOKING AHEAD. Within the full study, some other time measurements are also revealed and discussed, including the speeds of drawing from snapped vs. unsnapped holsters and point shooting vs. sighted fire.

In the future, Lewinski and his researchers intend to explore a variety of related issues, including:

• the effect of finger placement on the risk of unintentional discharge
• the speed and retention benefits of different types of holsters
• methods for improving training and officer performance with long-barreled weapons
• the expansion of this initial study to multiple departments to verify the results.

The current study will be posted free of charge on the Force Science website at a future date yet to be determined.

Besides Lewinski, the research team included: Jennifer Dysterheft, a doctoral student in kinesiology at the University of Illinois and a research assistant at FSI; Jacob Bushey, a master's student in exercise physiology at Minnesota State University-Mankato; and Nathan Dicks, an assistant professor in the Dept. of Human Performance at Minnesota State.

[HopetonBrown]

Vickers, Hackathorn and SouthNarc all endorsed a ejection port register in my time spent with them. That's what I use and what I suggest to other shooters whose fingers will reach.

[SLG]

Due to hand size/gun differences, I advocate as high as you can go without straining. On pistols.

Not so on M4's, for most people. That is the one "flaw" of that weapon that matters to me.

[Chuck Haggard]

As high as I can go, generally the port or above on a Glock.

^This^


People want to say that this is slightly uncomfortable. Yes, exactly.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Due to hand size/gun differences, I advocate as high as you can go without straining. On pistols.


Vickers, Hackathorn and SouthNarc all endorsed a ejection port register in my time spent with them........... whose fingers will reach.

In my hand, #4 and #6 are the same. I go at least that high.

[YVK]

Vickers, Hackathorn and SouthNarc all endorsed a ejection port register in my time spent with them.

I started to train and practice serously by taking two classes with Larry, and that's what I did first. Then I burned my fingertip, not badly but enough to remember, registering my finger into a port of a 1911 after shooting about 300 rounds. In addition, and also on Larry's recommendations, I lubed the barrel hood and the inside area of a slide just in front of it very generously. That almost invariably resulted in getting junk on my fingertip after the first register of a session. End point, I don't register in the port, even though I don't run 1911s much anymore.

I'd also point out that different pistols have these landmarks differently. Most quality 1911s have their ports lowered (compare that to pictured Elite II), I get in there almost without trying. CZs have such small slides, the slide / frame register is almost a default. In general, I try register against the slide.

[Artemas]

Ejection port and slide are not an option for me. I physically can't adjust my index finger higher than the take down lever on a glock. On a sig, I can almost make it to the bottom of the frame. Any more than that I need to dramatically adjust my grip.

A local NRA instructor who I will never go to again, tried to force my finger on to the frame despite my objections. There was some snapping and swearing involved.

[JHC]

I don't see much difference between #1 and #2. I prefer the ejection port register, but it's somewhat painful for me so I end up using #4 - the frame.

Same here. The ejection port is a reach too far for automatic. During reloads the finger is just straight and out in space.

[Mr_White]

Due to hand size/gun differences, I advocate as high as you can go without straining.

For me it's this exactly. It ends up being about 3.5, in terms of the pictures presented, with my finger on a Glock.

Finger outside and completely above the trigger guard and pressed into the frame or slide should be sufficient to mitigate startle response, interlimb interaction, and postural disturbance. Separate from that is trigger-checking. I think people who have a self-awareness/self-control problem and let their finger creep low or check the trigger outright may be helped to pay more attention by the ejection port position. Doesn't work for everyone though.


A local NRA instructor who I will never go to again, tried to force my finger on to the frame despite my objections. There was some snapping and swearing involved.

I've seen that too, and it is a big reason I am not hardline about people putting their fingers there.

In classes I teach at my normal venue, #4 is the minimum (finger outside and completely above the trigger guard, pressed into the frame/slide.) #5 is unacceptable and is not allowed. I don't believe it sufficiently mitigates the physiological issues that can cause the finger to contract when no conscious decision was made. It is still taught and allowed in many places, though, so it's not always possible to demand otherwise in every circumstance.

[CCT125US]

Very timely topic as this is something I have been working on lately. For many years, I tried / felt like having a straight finger allowed for best / safest performance. My shooting buddy would occasionally catch me creeping into the trigger guard early. Not unsafe, but early. He has the habit of pointing out miniscule things that lead me to be a better shooter. This drove me to experiment with other techniques. So, I have been working on the positive pressure method. I guess based on hand size that #6 would be the most visually descriptive for me. My old thinking was that by pointing at the target with my trigger finger, I was able to better drive the sights. I have since proven to my self repeatedly on the timer that positive pressure is safer / faster / more consistent. I "think" my prior method was not ideal, because the finger could be pointed independently of grip. Positive pressure is working very well for me.

[Robinson]

I use #4, but #4 and #6 are pretty much the same for me. I'd like to know if there is something specific that makes this option unsatisfactory if done consistently.

[RJ]

Could I ask the SMEs here, as a lefty, would any of this discussion change at all for us Southpaws?

I'm guessing not?

But 'ejection port' register obviously would translate for us as 'pretty dang high on the frame.'

Related: I do recall at my initial Intro to Action Pistol course last year, that a Very Nice RO counseled me on moving with my finger above the trigger guard. He said he could not clearly see I was off the trigger. Which I got his point; I definitely had it straight out and along the frame of my pistol (M&P FS9) for the rest of the day. Problem being, that dang beeper went off, my IQ dropped about a hundred points.

Rich

[Snapshot]

Not an SME by any means but lefty, so... I find with with the P226 the finger on the takedown axis lever provides a good tactile reference and with a bit of pressure the angle of the lever keeps the finger from sliding around.

[Surf]

I would be about 3.5.

Not for or against an ejection port reference while in some form of a ready or non-shooting position, however I cannot achieve that. On the Glock as seen in the pics below I am resting on the lip of the frame flat with the finger contacting the slide. On the Glock I exert a bit of "pinch" on the sides and slight "downforce" on the lip of the frame flat. My trigger finger and thumb do have a bit of curl and slight gap between the finger and frame and there is not full contact throughout the finger or thumb. I feel this is a good positive placement that works best for myself. On a smooth frame to slide pistol I still exert a bit of "pinch" pressure when in a ready position. Depending on type of shot(s) I am making, I may or may not exert pressure with the thumb when firing and this is dependent on the pistol also.

http://static.wixstatic.com/media/aaa22a_c6b6b80ca7024e5287ecd067ed514201.jpg

http://static.wixstatic.com/media/aaa22a_48c525b42e6d4d2bbd30b22eaafb9a00.jpg

http://static.wixstatic.com/media/aaa22a_7bf5b49c4bd64a40a9dd7693dfef66d5.jpg

[TGS]

To me, it's not important where the finger registers as long as it is above the trigger guard. Registering on the trigger guard isn't really doing any good, as a sympathetic response will put your finger right on the trigger.

As for ejection port, I can do that with a Glock or M&P. I cannot do that with any hammer fired gun I own besides the P232, given the higher bore axis; in doing so, I have break my firing hand grip.

[Clobbersaurus]

I use #4, but #4 and #6 are pretty much the same for me. I'd like to know if there is something specific that makes this option unsatisfactory if done consistently.

I don't think position 4 is unsatisfactory, if you do it 100% of the time. With polymer or steel framed guns #4 doesn't give me any tactile indicators that my finger is where it should be, especially when going fast or moving. If you have a polymer frame gun and you feel steel out of the holster you know your finger is in a better place. That is kinda the point of #6, as it gives you a tactile register position, but in my opinion, the movement to get there is too much like pulling the trigger.

[JHC]

To me, it's not important where the finger registers as long as it is above the trigger guard. Registering on the trigger guard isn't really doing any good, as a sympathetic response will put your finger right on the trigger.

As for ejection port, I can do that with a Glock or M&P. I cannot do that with any hammer fired gun I own besides the P232, given the higher bore axis; in doing so, I have break my firing hand grip.

Frame is a better spot but all the spills I've take where with trigger guard index and finger locked out straight as an arrow as gravity and loss of traction took over.

[Dagga Boy]

I like to find a physical reference point I can feel. On the HK's, the little square cutout above the trigger guard is about perfect for me. We tell many of our students to "feel steel". Essentially on the polymer guns,find something to reference physically. Others may differ. The biggest thing is getting well above the trigger guard area.

[breakingtime91]

I use the "feel steel" after seeing nyeti mention it during the finger saftey thread.. Never noticed I was doing it before but it just helped reinforce an old habit of mine.

[MDS]

My interpretation of "feel steel" looks a lot like surf's pictures.

This is a bit of a tangent, but what does a good register look like on a revolver? J frame different from K frame?

[Dagga Boy]

My interpretation of "feel steel" looks a lot like surf's pictures.

This is a bit of a tangent, but what does a good register look like on a revolver? J frame different from K frame?

I usually have the pad if my trigger finger on the writing under "Made in the USA".

[BaiHu]

I usually have the pad if my trigger finger on the writing under "Made in the USA".
Wow! If that ain't an "America! F*¢k yeah!" answer...

[ubervic]

While I am able to register on the ejection port without undue strain, I cannot smoothly transition my trigger finger from that position to the trigger without a 'snapping' motion, which causes a noticeable sight-alignment disturbance. My cleanest, smoothest transition is from a registration point entirely on the frame.