The philosophy behind carry rotation or no rotation?

[Red Leader]

The responses I was getting from most folks in the "What are you carrying on you right now" thread were interesting. You guys really got me thinking about this idea or 'no rotation'.

I had listed that I carry the XD45c and in rotation, I have a S&W 3953.

I guess to clarify, I don't switch between pistols day-to-day, and right now I don't even really carry the 3953 - I'm waiting for the exact same style of holster to use it with. I just happen to shoot better with the 3953 so it will probably replace the XD45, and it doesn't dig into my side as much.

However, I'm interested in hearing the different schools of thought on this one. I can absolutely see where the wisdom from the 'no rotation' comes from. I can't even imagine trying to switch between the XD45 and, lets say, a 1911 where the manual of arms is completely different. The danger is that you get used to one system, then take with you another system with different rules, and your muscle memory gets out of whack with the new system, which can really put you in danger if your muscle memory cannot recall a manual disengagement of the thumb safety.

In that case, I see the point. However, even if I was to rotate pistols, day to day, I am still switching from 'pick it up and pull the trigger' to 'pick it up and pull the trigger', whereas both would be carried in the exact same type of holder, in the exact same place. With that in mind, I can also see why rotating the position in which you carry could be disastrous as well - imagine going for your side arm when you need it and...its not there? (its in a different position). In that case, I do think switching types of holsters or positions, etc, could perhaps have even more bearing in a stressful situation?

But I wanted to ask some more questions and go deeper. When someone says 'No rotation' do they mean they would never rotate a carry firearm day to day, or maybe week to week, or year to year? Is it just the act of going back and forth between different-enough firearms in a short enough period of time that this gets problematic?
If someone was to carry a glock 21 for 5 years then decide to switch their carry to an FNP45, wouldn't there be the same issue, at least soon after the switch? Certainly we have changed our carry arms at some point to coincide with our needs - we get a new pistol, test out a new pistol, etc - and is there a line between safe and dangerous when we are talking about familiarity, manual of arms, and muscle memory? Is that line solely dependent on the individual?

Taking it a step further, if we were to assume that rotating between different firearms may be a liability in an adrenaline dump situation, where does that leave those who own more than 1 type of pistol, or who enjoy range time with said pistols (I'm sure this is most of us)? Someone carrys a Glock 17 but their favorite 'range' toy is a 1911. Every single time we spend X amount of time with a firearm dissimilar enough to our own carry piece, are we messing with our muscle memory? If the theory of no-rotation holds water, shouldn't that mean that we should ideally finish out every range session with our CCW so that we reestablish that muscle memory?

This is not a critique of no-rotation at all, actually I think the idea it pretty legitimate. However, if we take it seriously and apply it to our philosophy of carry, shouldn't we also examine the way the concept of 'no rotation' applies in every capacity, even to our range guns and time spent with other firearms that are completely different from what we are expecting to be able to pull out and use in an instant if needed?

Wow did I just write all that? I guess it really got me thinking:D Please help me learn. I would love to hear thoughts on this topic, especially from any firearms teachers or instructors.

[JDM]

The responses I was getting from most folks in the "What are you carrying on you right now" thread were interesting. You guys really got me thinking about this idea or 'no rotation'.

I had listed that I carry the XD45c and in rotation, I have a S&W 3953.

I guess to clarify, I don't switch between pistols day-to-day, and right now I don't even really carry the 3953 - I'm waiting for the exact same style of holster to use it with. I just happen to shoot better with the 3953 so it will probably replace the XD45, and it doesn't dig into my side as much.

However, I'm interested in hearing the different schools of thought on this one. I can absolutely see where the wisdom from the 'no rotation' comes from. I can't even imagine trying to switch between the XD45 and, lets say, a 1911 where the manual of arms is completely different. The danger is that you get used to one system, then take with you another system with different rules, and your muscle memory gets out of whack with the new system, which can really put you in danger if your muscle memory cannot recall a manual disengagement of the thumb safety.


This is the first, and perhaps the largest concern.

In that case, I see the point. However, even if I was to rotate pistols, day to day, I am still switching from 'pick it up and pull the trigger' to 'pick it up and pull the trigger', whereas both would be carried in the exact same type of holder, in the exact same place. With that in mind, I can also see why rotating the position in which you carry could be disastrous as well - imagine going for your side arm when you need it and...its not there? (its in a different position). In that case, I do think switching types of holsters or positions, etc, could perhaps have even more bearing in a stressful situation?


My gun is in the same place, in the same holster, whenever i leave the house.

But I wanted to ask some more questions and go deeper. When someone says 'No rotation' do they mean they would never rotate a carry firearm day to day, or maybe week to week, or year to year? Is it just the act of going back and forth between different-enough firearms in a short enough period of time that this gets problematic?

If someone was to carry a glock 21 for 5 years then decide to switch their carry to an FNP45, wouldn't there be the same issue, at least soon after the switch? Certainly we have changed our carry arms at some point to coincide with our needs - we get a new pistol, test out a new pistol, etc - and is there a line between safe and dangerous when we are talking about familiarity, manual of arms, and muscle memory? Is that line solely dependent on the individual?


naturally, I've switched guns, I'm sure everyone has. When I said I didn't rotate, i was saying that i usually carry the same gun for substantial amounts of time (~2 years average). when i do switch, its a gradual process of familiarization/ reliability testing/ holster getting (for lack of a better term). I don't jump from one platform to another on a daily/ weekly/ monthly basis.


Taking it a step further, if we were to assume that rotating between different firearms may be a liability in an adrenaline dump situation, where does that leave those who own more than 1 type of pistol, or who enjoy range time with said pistols (I'm sure this is most of us)? Someone carrys a Glock 17 but their favorite 'range' toy is a 1911. Every single time we spend X amount of time with a firearm dissimilar enough to our own carry piece, are we messing with our muscle memory? If the theory of no-rotation holds water, shouldn't that mean that we should ideally finish out every range session with our CCW so that we reestablish that muscle memory?


I don't personally feel that if i shoot my P99 or 1076 or whatever for a 200rd fun run at the range it will have an appreciable impact on the way i handle the gun I've shot many thousands of rounds through, done hours of dry practice with (hopefully) and have carried for many many days. This is a bit like saying if you borrow a friends stick shift, you'll forget how to drive your automatic. YMMV.

This is not a critique of no-rotation at all, actually I think the idea it pretty legitimate. However, if we take it seriously and apply it to our philosophy of carry, shouldn't we also examine the way the concept of 'no rotation' applies in every capacity, even to our range guns and time spent with other firearms that are completely different from what we are expecting to be able to pull out and use in an instant if needed?

Wow did I just write all that? I guess it really got me thinking:D Please help me learn. I would love to hear thoughts on this topic, especially from any firearms teachers or instructors.

Replies in blue.

[jslaker]

In that case, I see the point. However, even if I was to rotate pistols, day to day, I am still switching from 'pick it up and pull the trigger' to 'pick it up and pull the trigger', whereas both would be carried in the exact same type of holder, in the exact same place.
But with different trigger weights, trigger breaks, trigger resets, sight pictures, recoil impulses, etc.


But I wanted to ask some more questions and go deeper. When someone says 'No rotation' do they mean they would never rotate a carry firearm day to day, or maybe week to week, or year to year?
Personally, I mean day-to-day.


Is it just the act of going back and forth between different-enough firearms in a short enough period of time that this gets problematic?
It's mostly that handguns are so nuanced that you can't be completely proficient on multiple platforms at the same time, IMO.


If someone was to carry a glock 21 for 5 years then decide to switch their carry to an FNP45, wouldn't there be the same issue, at least soon after the switch?
It would take time to build familiarity with the new system, yes. I'm considering a switch from the HK I've carried the past couple of years to a G19 at the moment, for example. If I go through with it, I expect that it'll take me some time to build up familiarity with the Glock, and intend to plan around that accordingly.


Someone carrys a Glock 17 but their favorite 'range' toy is a 1911. Every single time we spend X amount of time with a firearm dissimilar enough to our own carry piece, are we messing with our muscle memory? If the theory of no-rotation holds water, shouldn't that mean that we should ideally finish out every range session with our CCW so that we reestablish that muscle memory?
Shooting something different on occasion isn't going to wipe out your familiarity with your carry platform. I've got a P226 that I take to the range every so often because I find it enjoyable to shoot. The bulk of my range trips and trigger time are centered around my USP since that's what I carry, though.

One caveat I'll throw in is that while I'm in the "no rotation" crowd, I don't have as much of a problem with changing out weapons within the same platform. i.e., if your normal carry piece is a G19, I don't think moving to a G26 or G17 if circumstances dictate it is too big of a deal. I'd still be inclined to spend most of my range time on the gun that gets carried most in those cases, however.

[TCinVA]

In that case, I see the point. However, even if I was to rotate pistols, day to day, I am still switching from 'pick it up and pull the trigger' to 'pick it up and pull the trigger', whereas both would be carried in the exact same type of holder, in the exact same place.


...but the primary control mechanism of the weapon, the trigger, is very different between those two weapons. The mag buttons are in different places. Your grip for both guns isn't going to be exactly the same. One of them has a grip safety to contend with.

Etc.



With that in mind, I can also see why rotating the position in which you carry could be disastrous as well - imagine going for your side arm when you need it and...its not there? (its in a different position). In that case, I do think switching types of holsters or positions, etc, could perhaps have even more bearing in a stressful situation?


I'd be happy to hear the opinion of our SME's on holster placement...but in at least my experience I've never had any problem getting to the gun regardless of where it's placed. The vast majority of my concealed carry time was spent with an IWB holster carried somewhere on the strong side. Sometimes it was behind the hip, sometimes right on the hip, sometimes slightly forward. In training I never had any problem getting to the pistol. In various carbine courses I've used a duty belt type rig that usually had a drop-leg Safariland 6004. I never had any trouble getting to the gun there.

When I was given the opportunity to run Todd's H&K P30 test gun I used his CCC "Looper" AIWB holster, and it was my first time running an appendix holster for any period of time. I never had any problem getting to the gun.

Now keep in mind that I'm not a guy who is faced with the significant likelihood of an exchange of gunfire on a daily basis...but based on my experience I've never encountered any instance where I've gone where the pistol isn't based on where I thought it should be.



Is it just the act of going back and forth between different-enough firearms in a short enough period of time that this gets problematic?


It depends on what level of skill you have. If I have no formal training and little useful practice and I own ten handguns...and I want to make it clear that this is not a desirable state to be in because I've been there before...then it probably doesn't matter much if I swap pistols every hour on the hour. I'm pretty much going to suck equally with everything.

If, however, I get formal training and follow up with regular practice and I now have over 25,000 trigger pulls with weapon A, 400 slide-lock reloads with weapon A, 250 immediate action drills with weapon A...then yes, I might well find myself utterly lost on weapon B. Example: In 2009 I had the privilege of attending a handgun class with Ernie Langdon in Culpepper, Virginia. As a backup to my carry gun (a S&W M&P at the time) I brought my sweet Langdon Tactical Technologies customized Beretta 92. I swapped to it on day 2 of the class because I figured there was no better time to show the awesomeness of my carefully tuned, hard chromed pizza pistol than in an actual Langdon class. I stepped up to the line to run a drill that required drawing, moving and shooting a target simulating trying to get away from a bad guy. I didn't realize I had my weapon in condition stupid. (Condition stupid = empty chamber, loaded mag in the weapon) I moved, drew, and CLICK.

Reverting to my training without thought I performed an immediate action drill and CLICK. I did the drill again, and CLICK. Once more, CLICK. When I performed my first immediate action drill I had inadvertently engaged the safety on the 92FS pistol. Under the mild stress of an audience my brain was unable to work out that "Hey, stupid, the safety is on!" until I had covered the entire distance between where I started (at the target) and where the rest of the class was congregated.

Many moons ago, that Beretta was my primary carry gun. I spent 120 hours in formal training with that pistol and more hours than that in practice. In that situation, however, I was as useless as someone who had just picked up a Beretta 92 for the first time in their life.



If someone was to carry a glock 21 for 5 years then decide to switch their carry to an FNP45, wouldn't there be the same issue, at least soon after the switch?


Yes. Again, if you suck you'll suck equally with either pistol more than likely. For the very well trained shooter there will always need to be a little room for working out how to run the new gun to a satisfactory level. Generally within a couple of thousand rounds the issues can be worked out. This is acceptable if you're gaining something in trading off between the weapons. I recently switched from the M&P as my primary carry gun to the H&K P30. I made the switch because I was uncomfortable with the margin of error I had when reholstering a weapon with a ~ 5 pound short-travel trigger and no manual safety that was aimed at either my femoral artery or my wedding tackle. With the P30 I have the ability to physically block the hammer's movement with pressure from my thumb, providing a much larger margin of error. I was willing to take a bit of a hit on efficiency while I learned the new pistol to gain the greater long term safety of my bits 'n pieces.

To give you some idea of just how perishable some of this stuff can be, after a couple of months with the P30 I went to the range and on a lark decided to shoot my M&P and do a speed reload. Right off the bat I was trying to release the magazine as I had been doing with my P30. It took a fraction of a second for me to remember "Oh, this pistol has a button." Would that have gotten me killed in a gunfight? Probably not...but I had been programming a new behavior and when my brain was busy that's the behavior that showed up.



Taking it a step further, if we were to assume that rotating between different firearms may be a liability in an adrenaline dump situation, where does that leave those who own more than 1 type of pistol, or who enjoy range time with said pistols (I'm sure this is most of us)?


I own over two dozen handguns because I like collecting guns. One of my favorite passtimes is to go to the range with a cool pistol like a Makarov or an old Sistema or a Walther PP and shoot at stuff. That being said, I make a distinction between fun guns and the weapons I carry for serious social purposes. I plink with the cool old guns. I train with the weapons I carry. This means that I spend the majority of my time running drills and practicing accuracy and manipulations with the guns I intend to reach for if I have to defend myself. When I go to the range I typically use only my carry guns. If I'm going more for amusement than practice, I still start and end my range session with my carry gun.

[JV_]

When I train and carry, I use the same gun until a new bug bites me - which is about every 12 month. Excluding my 1 month fling with a Gen 4 19, I carried, shot, and trained with the same M&P for nearly a year, 13,000 rounds.

I try hard to not shoot other guns, especially if I don't one. That's what invites the bug to bite. It's also a muscle memory issue, my trigger finger has a difficult time adjusting to new systems, I notice issues with those moments of infidelity.

There are a lot of shooters who can easily move between guns, I'm not one of them. Perhaps the fundamentals aren't ingrained enough? I wouldn't argue with someone on that point.

[ToddG]

Any time someone talks about having a "rotation," the first question I ask is, Why?

Often, it's a LEO who is issued a pistol he's not crazy about, so he carries his issued gun on duty and something completely different off-duty. Either this guy has enough time and ammo to become masterfully proficient with two different guns, or he's splitting his proficiency. Even if he doesn't like his duty gun, even if it doesn't fit him perfectly or have the features he really likes, that's the gun he's most likely to have on him in a fight. Why wouldn't he put as much effort as possible into mastering that gun? Then it only makes sense to carry the same gun, or perhaps a more compact version of the same brand and design, off duty.

Other times, it is an enthusiast/collector who just enjoys different guns and on some level justifies it by carrying a different gun each day of the week. Since most of these people spend all their money on guns and very little on ammo & training, to echo Tim I'll simply say their weapon choice is a very minor factor in their effectiveness. Or to borrow a phrase from R Moran at M4C, "they suck equally with all of them."

Personally, I need a solid day at the range and ~1,000 rounds to feel comfortable switching to a new platform. I'm still not going to be as proficient as I was with the gun that I shot the previous year and put 50,000+ rounds through, but I'm comfortable I'm off to a good start. I also do a fair bit of dry fire -- otherwise unusual for me, I must ashamedly confess -- getting used to all the controls, the draw, and the reload, and malfunction clearances for the new gun before I'll carry it.

There are definitely people who can pick up any pistol and run it very well, but in my experience while 50% of the shooters out there think that applies to them, the number who can actually pull it off is closer to 0.5%. :cool:

[TAP]

Other times, it is an enthusiast/collector who just enjoys different guns and on some level justifies it by carrying a different gun each day of the week. Since most of these people spend all their money on guns and very little on ammo & training, to echo Tim I'll simply say their weapon choice is a very minor factor in their effectiveness. Or to borrow a phrase from R Moran at M4C, "they suck equally with all of them."


No rotation here. I stick with the same gun for consistency. As Todd mentioned above, people spend way too much time and money on the next best thing (ie. guns and gear) and less on mastering what they have. I'd rather have one gun and spend the rest on training and ammo.

What are your thoughts on rotating with the same platform (ie. Glock)? I hear the argument that a glock is a glock but to me each model has enough differences (grip size, sight radius, caliber, etc.) that I think it is enough to affect the consistency.

[Rverdi]

I can't add much to Todd's post, I would have responded the same way.
I spent a career watching the LE issue he spoke about and it's incredibly prevalent. I can't count the number of times I had an officer ask me about off duty guns and then look at me like I had two heads when I suggested their duty gun.
"You work for SIG and you're telling me I shouldn't carry a 239 off duty, I should carry my issue Glock?"
"Yes, that's exactly what I'm telling you."
Long ago and far away I switched carry guns like socks, at some point I realized just how much it was hurting my shooting, put my duty 92G in my off duty holster and never looked back until I retired.
I preach the single gun mantra as often as I can, I truly believe it works.

[willowofwisp]

What about rotating from say a 19 to a 26 or 17? Do you guys consider this equally bad?

Sent from my Evo

[jar]

I'll echo Todd in asking why. If you carry a gun because you think it's cool or something, "rotation" makes sense. If you carry to potentially save your life, I think it's silly.

I do occasionally switch from my M&p 9c to a 442, but that's for concealability reasons for certain activites. I'm planning to try aiwb to mitigate them, but I've got some physical work to do first.

Sent from my PG06100 using Tapatalk

[VolGrad]

No rotation here. I stick with the same gun for consistency. As Todd mentioned above, people spend way too much time and money on the next best thing (ie. guns and gear) and less on mastering what they have. I'd rather have one gun and spend the rest on training and ammo.

What are your thoughts on rotating with the same platform (ie. Glock)? I hear the argument that a glock is a glock but to me each model has enough differences (grip size, sight radius, caliber, etc.) that I think it is enough to affect the consistency.

Great post. I was one that fell into the category of "always searching" for a long time. I have now pretty much settled in with regard to holster styles and stick with only the GLOCK platform for carry guns. I still have other firearms but the bulk of my practice and all of my training, matches, and carry is done with a GLOCK.

I have my GLOCK all set up pretty much the say way with respect to controls, sights, connectors, spring, etc. Yes, the grips are somewhat different between models/mods and the triggers do have slightly different feels based on the amount of use. However, I feel I'm pretty consistent with a G26/G19/G17/G34.

Am I fooling myself? What say the SMEs?

[TCinVA]

What about rotating from say a 19 to a 26 or 17? Do you guys consider this equally bad?


There's nothing wrong with carrying a different gun if you need more concealability. If you must do that, it's best to keep it within a certain family. Someone who normally carries a G17 would be well served by a G26 if they need the smallest possible pistol because the trigger is the same, the sights can be the same, and all the important controls will be in the same place since a G26 is basically just a G17 that's been chopped in two places.

[ToddG]

Just be aware that the reload practice you perform diligently with your 17/34 might lead to a nasty blood blister on a G19 or 26.

YMMV, of course, but for me personally there is little a G17 does for me that a G19 doesn't, and very few circumstances in which I could conceal a G26 but not a G19...

[MTechnik]

Hrm, as usual, there is a LOT of food for thought here -

I have an FNP-9 that was my first gun. It shoots EVERYTHING 9mm that comes near it. Hasn't failed on anything, aluminum or steel case, jacketed hollow point or round nose, it doesn't care. But it is big, and maybe I haven't had the right holster for it. I do have an RCS holster on its way, and keep bugging Ameriglo for a yellow/green night sight for it. But 99.99% of the time it is in a mini gunvault with a TLR-2 on it, waiting for something to go bump in the night.

My carry weapon normally is my PPS. It is slim, easy to carry plus an extra magazine. But it is finnicky about what ammo it will shoot. It has been to S&W for a fluff and mainspring replacement, but it is still picky about what ammo it will shoot well. I'm hoping the RA9T I just got runs through the gun, as the 124 gr DPX did NOT feed well at all. I've fallen back on the 95gb DPX which did feed fine for 100 rounds.

But from what I am reading here, even tho I keep both guns at 8:30 (I'm a lefty) and neither has an external safety, that I should really be shelving one gun long term and focus on the other one. That my range time split between the two is slowing my ability to "advance" in my learning. And I will agree the triggers aren't the same (DA/SA vs DAO/striker), the magazine release is in a different spot.

I guess once the RCS holster arrives, the FNP-9 will be my primary carry, and the PPS will go on a shelf until I am truly proficient with the FNP.

[derekb]

I only own one handgun, and it's the one I've spent the vast majority of my range time over the entire course of my shooting life (I am 24 now, and have been shooting under the tutelage of my grandfather since middle school), an HK P7M8, and I don't anticipate replacing it for carry (or even for most of my range time) until it falls apart.

[turbolag23]

I rotate between a glock 23 and 27 seasonally, the 27 conceals better in summer months with less layers.

[Savage Hands]

I don't get to shoot or train nearly as much as I use to or like, so I standardized on the M&P platform for carry, recreation and training.

[YVK]

Comparing to most posters in this thread, I do rotate. The "rotation" is between two handgun platforms primarily; there is a third one which has a small niche, and probably will go away at some point. The plan for any subsequent acquisitions is that they have to displace one of existing ones, or else they won't be kept.
My rotation cycle is about 6 months. I usually have one or two transition sessions when I bring both pistols to the range before switching. Reason for "rotation": I practice with my CCW, different platforms provide different challenges for me, and I think such exposure to various challenges makes me a better shooter on a long run. There is a bit more to it, but that's the biggest reason.

[jslaker]

My rotation cycle is about 6 months.

Is this because of concealability?

The main issue I'd have there is that even if you're switching between "dedicated" platforms for extended periods, you'll still have a transition period where you're not shooting to your full potential in the interim each time. It makes more sense to me to choose a platform you can stick with regardless of the weather, personally.

FWIW, my opinion here is colored by the fact that I daily carry a USP Compact (which is basically dimensionally identical to a G19/G23) year round, including at work where I have to wear business attire -- khakis, tucked in collared shirt, tie -- and hiding the gun really isn't an issue with the right holster.

[YVK]

Is this because of concealability?

No, just empiric. It takes relatively short time to transition from safety standpoint - say, one-two sessions or 200-300 rounds, and then double that to even out the overall performance. Then few months to continue working on specific challenges presented by a given choice to complete a rotation cycle.

The point of rotation is to keep facing these different challenges, hopefully without jeopardizing my overall performance at any given time. While specific aspects of performance (say, precision distance shooting vs. reload speed) differ between platforms, my aggregate performance is about the same. When I can print the same 25 yard groups from my Glock 19 as from 1911, and when I can control my 1911 in recoil as well as I can do it with Glock, there will be no reason to rotate.
It only follows the logic that my practice sessions are structured differently with these. I spend a lot more time on precision and trigger control with Glock, and I shoot a lot more Circle drills with 1911.

[jslaker]

When I can print the same 25 yard groups from my Glock 19 as from 1911, and when I can control my 1911 in recoil as well as I can do it with Glock, there will be no reason to rotate.

You don't think that splitting your time between the two platforms is slowing you down on attaining that?

But it's mostly about priorities, I suppose. I'm interested primarily in pushing myself to be as good as I can with one platform, personally. There are a few specifics where I still shoot better with my P226, for example, but I perform better overall with my carry USPc since that's the gun I focus the majority of my range trips on.

[YVK]

You don't think that splitting your time between the two platforms is slowing you down on attaining that?

Nope, I don't think so. If I am not shooting Glock, I am not exposed to what it takes to press its trigger well. If I am not shooting 45, I am not challenged with recoil management, flip control and wider sight arc to track. An attempt to combine the two ("Glock" and "45") results in either a gun that I can't shoot well at all (G30) or carry concealed (G21).
I truly think that shooting different platforms, if done smartly, is complementary and not inhibitory to one's skill progression.

[Red Leader]

Guys, I really have to say...thanks for all your comments.

I wasn't sure if I was gonna get thrown under the bus for all these critical questions, but I think the responses have been great and it is really challenging my perceptions, which is a good thing.

And really, it makes me wonder if I should just sell off all my 'rotation' pistols and just get an HK:D:p

Never shot one before, but hanging out here is making it hard not to want to!

[LittleLebowski]

Learning has occurred!

Training with and carrying the same gun gives you a certain confidence you would not have when switching platforms. You will know that you can make that shot, know your point of aim/point of impact (POA, POI) for differing distances, and know that trigger inside and out.

Yeah, buy an HK, take some classes :D

[willowofwisp]

Learning has occurred!

Training with and carrying the same gun gives you a certain confidence you would not have when switching platforms. You will know that you can make that shot, know your point of aim/point of impact (POA, POI) for differing distances, and know that trigger inside and out.

Yeah, buy an GLOCK, take some classes :D

Fixed!

[gtmtnbiker98]

Fixed!Nah, he had it right the first time. Get an HK.:p

[Red Leader]

lol

I'm gonna try to get to a shop and put some of these in my hand.
the Glocks have that hump in the grip which doesn't quite fit me, but there is always a grip reduction.
I have been very impressed with how quickly follow up shots can be made.

HKs...I just don't know much about them, except that ToddG has shot them a LOT:cool:

[LittleLebowski]

Nah, he had it right the first time. Get an HK.:p

Either or. Any proven platform that doesn't hinder your learning.

[x-man]

There are definitely people who can pick up any pistol and run it very well, but in my experience while 50% of the shooters out there think that applies to them, the number who can actually pull it off is closer to 0.5%. :cool:

I definitely belong to that 99.5%. Shot five rounds from a SIG 226 .40 S&W few days ago. Only the first double action shot was dead on and the slide didn't lock back after last round due to a high weak hand grip. It's weird as I usually don't shoot guns with long heavy double action pull. Maybe that's because I practiced dry fire on the notorious HK double action pull once or twice but that still doesn't explain why my much more practiced single action dry fire didn't help.

Todd already proved that he can't make the HK45 fail in 50K rounds. Why would I want to carry a gun other than the HK45 I already have and very familiar with? Well, on another thought, maybe a P30 :)

[jslaker]

Todd already proved that he can't make the HK45 fail in 50K rounds.

*barring creative assembly. ;)

[MTechnik]

Either or. Any proven platform that doesn't hinder your learning.

Shit, but a platform that you can get accessories for.

I love my FNP too much, it just works like a tank.

But I can barely find holsters and sights for it.

So limited.

[Badfish25]

While I understand the point of training with just one platform, and carrying a different type of gun every day of the week is pretty dumb, some people have to carry a different size guns for certain situations.

For example say I am going to the beach, its hard to wear a Glock 19 IWB, but I can pocket carry a Kahr PM9. I feel as long as you train with similar platforms you will be better off carrying a smaller gun at times instead of no gun at all.

[BWT]

I'd agree with the common more experienced consensus.

For instance, I bought an SGL21 about two months ago, being my First AK, and it being my new gun purchase, I couldn't put the thing down for the mandatory 2-3 weeks whenever the opportunity presented itself.

I did notice though that, I started rocking in magazines in an AR-15, I didn't think about it, I just realized after doing it once "Wait... Did I just rock in a magazine into an AR-15?"

Not to say I'm anybody who goes in the way of danger, or am high speed low drag, messing with your carry routine is probably the worst idea, because... under stress you will do what you've trained yourself to do, you will make stupid mistakes.

You just try to minimize those mistakes. Stuff develops into muscle memory that defies logic.

I'd say it might not be such a big issue if you were handling different semi-autos, like a 1911 and M&P9 with Thumb Safety, all have similar location of magazine release, thumb safety, etc. But try that with a glock or vice versa, and you will notice a difference, I usually shoot high, the trigger pull length messes with me, the grip angle when I present the gun how I'm used to, the sights are unaligned, and I have to really focus to get the sights aligned where before it was just second nature.

Just simple things. Simple things add up though, I'd say don't mess with the carry routine.

[KeeFus]

Often, it's a LEO who is issued a pistol he's not crazy about, so he carries his issued gun on duty and something completely different off-duty. Either this guy has enough time and ammo to become masterfully proficient with two different guns, or he's splitting his proficiency. Even if he doesn't like his duty gun, even if it doesn't fit him perfectly or have the features he really likes, that's the gun he's most likely to have on him in a fight. Why wouldn't he put as much effort as possible into mastering that gun? Then it only makes sense to carry the same gun, or perhaps a more compact version of the same brand and design, off duty.

This applies to me. I do not carry our duty weapon, a DA/SA trigger, off duty. Im profecient with the weapon but I am way more comfortable with my off duty, a G-19.

Hopefully, when we switch weapons in July to the S&W M&P things will get better. I will shoot the M&P in CDP in IDPA but im undecided about using the duty gear at the moment.

[David Marlow]

I don't have a regular rotation. I carry my G19 daily back home, and will sometimes add the G26 in a weak side holster, but that's only because the wife doesn't like carrying her XD and I want her to be able to defend herself and my son if I'm not able to for some reason.

[John Ralston]

Shit, but a platform that you can get accessories for.

I love my FNP too much, it just works like a tank.

But I can barely find holsters and sights for it.

So limited.

Well, you need to call FNUSA and have them get some dummy guns made - I can't even get an FNP Dummy...

[TCinVA]

While I understand the point of training with just one platform, and carrying a different type of gun every day of the week is pretty dumb, some people have to carry a different size guns for certain situations.


That's true...but often there are options within a family of weapons. If you have a Glock 17, for instance, the G19 or G26 may be able to go with you when you can't take the bigger pistol.



For example say I am going to the beach, its hard to wear a Glock 19 IWB, but I can pocket carry a Kahr PM9. I feel as long as you train with similar platforms you will be better off carrying a smaller gun at times instead of no gun at all.

To be clear, I don't think anyone was holding that you must carry the gun you practice most with or go out armed with nothing more than fingernails. The admonition is to buy something good and stick with it, because in the end that's going to leave you better off than flavor of the month syndrome.

I carry two pistols most of the time...a P30 and a S&W 442. They are very different handguns, but I've trained with both of them and I practice regularly with both to build proficiency. I have different manipulations with both of them and even completely different grips...but I've never had any problem getting the two confused (never tried to reload my P30 with a speed loader, for instance) because I've spent time learning how to run both reasonably well.

[JodyH]

My primary training pistol is a P2000 LEM.
My most often carried pistol is a P2000Sk LEM.
My alternate carry pistol is a Kahr PM9.
The LEM and Kahr triggers feel very similar and I have the same sight set up on all three pistols, I've found I can transition between them with no problems.
I shoot IPSC matches with the P2000 and for the local CCW matches I alternate between the Sk and Kahr, I've never felt that switching between the three pistols was a hindrance.

[Badfish25]

That's true...but often there are options within a family of weapons. If you have a Glock 17, for instance, the G19 or G26 may be able to go with you when you can't take the bigger pistol.



To be clear, I don't think anyone was holding that you must carry the gun you practice most with or go out armed with nothing more than fingernails. The admonition is to buy something good and stick with it, because in the end that's going to leave you better off than flavor of the month syndrome.

I carry two pistols most of the time...a P30 and a S&W 442. They are very different handguns, but I've trained with both of them and I practice regularly with both to build proficiency. I have different manipulations with both of them and even completely different grips...but I've never had any problem getting the two confused (never tried to reload my P30 with a speed loader, for instance) because I've spent time learning how to run both reasonably well.

I agree with you 100% about sticking to a well verse platform when every possible.

Is the S&W a back up gun for you, or do you carry it in certain situations?

How long did it take you to become proficient with both platforms, and why did you pick two guns that are so different from each other?

[TCinVA]

Well, the term "proficient" is loaded. I don't consider myself truly proficient with either...I'm working toward that goal. Now my current level of skill might be higher than some people's idea of "proficiency", but that's their prerogative. ;) I practice basic manipulations with the J frame like reloads (the method taught by Michael DeBethencourt is a good technique for reloads) as well as accuracy and hits at speed from the draw. I also spend time confirming the zero on my laser and practicing using it...but only a little bit because it's so easy to use compared to the iron sights. I bought a 317 revolver which has helped with learning trigger control and precision accuracy. I use Jerry Miculek's snub-revolver grip on the J frames and it really makes a difference in controlling small handguns.

Like anything else, formal training from someone like Claude Werner or Michael DeBethencourt would go a long way to helping you build proficiency in a shorter period of time rather than trying to figure things out the hard way. The ability to spend time on the range talking about using the J frame with Ken Hackathorn is also a good shortcut to success, as he's forgotten more on the topic than most will ever learn.

I bought the 442 years ago because I read an article by a very wise man with a funny mustache that discussed what a practical little handgun the J frame is and how great it was as a BUG. As a bonus, it also gave me a carry option on those occasions when I couldn't carry a larger weapon. There are times when all I have on me is the 442, a Safariland speed-loader, and a blade. Not an ideal loadout, but it is capable of handling most reasonable self defense tasks.

As for why I chose two very different guns, practicality. The J frame is a blend of power, concealability, reliability, safety, and versatility that is hard to beat. It's been the default concealed carry pistol for literally millions since it was introduced to the market...and the concept of a small revolver is even older than the J frame itself. It is "enough" gun to serve as a primary on those occasions when I'm forced to carry it that way and it still serves well as a light, easy to carry BUG when I can carry something better.

The two guns serve very different roles. Within each niche I've tried to pick the best option for my situation that I can, which makes the time invested in practice with both handguns worth it to me. Since the 442 can go places that no other handgun can go, it's worth it to learn to use it well. Since the 442 is limited as a tool of self defense, it's worth it to learn to use a much more capable handgun like the P30 that I carry whenever I can and would reach for first if I have a choice. Etc.

[Chuck Haggard]

I have never rotated carry guns, in the manner to which this is addressed, just because I have always wanted to stay proficient with the gun I had to carry, and for most of my life "had to" applied.

I started out with a 4" .357mag revolver, carried the same gun off-duty in 2 3/4" flavor. hwne we went to 9mms the 3rd gen S&Ws were chosen.

Since the 5906 was the duty weapon, I bought a 6906 for off-duty and BUG. It wasn't my choice, but since that was what I was stuck with I thought it best to get good with what I was going to carry and make the most of things.

Now that we carry Glock 17s ant work, I also have a G19 for off-duty, and a G26 that used to be my BUG.

I am now carrying S&W J frames as my BUGs, on and off duty, due to concealment issues, and due to arthritis in my knee no longer allowing me to carry the G26 as an ankle gun.

In staying with the "shoot what you carry" theme I have sold off all my other serious handguns and now only use Glock 9mms and S&W J frames for carry (although I have a few other sporting guns like large frame .357mags).

I find for some reason I have no issues at all going back and forth from the Glocks to the J frames, but if I throw in going from the Glocks to something like my old HK USP .45 then I was all jacked up when trying to manipulate the gun at speed.

[Thrill]

WOW! Lots of good info here. Has me thinking about which direction I need to go,... being a n00b. Thanks!

[SteveK]

I don't see having a carry stable a "rotation" as much as a needs based inventory. I have never had issues with transitioning to different systems and practice frequently with several. My training gun is a Glock 17 and I am transitioning from a 1911A1 to a Glock21 SF at work. I have a Glock 19 that lives in a Maxpedition Fatboy and goes everywhere with me. I'll still load out for special operations calls with a 1911A1. My off duty gun is a Sig 229R and a Smith 442 is always around for "honey-go-get-this" runs. I just added a HK P30 LEM to my collection and plan on shooting it and learning the LEM. My philosophy has always been to be able to fight well with whatever was at my disposal and I have never found just one weapon that filled all my needs.

[JFK]

Nope, I don't think so. If I am not shooting Glock, I am not exposed to what it takes to press its trigger well. If I am not shooting 45, I am not challenged with recoil management, flip control and wider sight arc to track. An attempt to combine the two ("Glock" and "45") results in either a gun that I can't shoot well at all (G30) or carry concealed (G21).
I truly think that shooting different platforms, if done smartly, is complementary and not inhibitory to one's skill progression.

This is an interesting comment. While I am in the camp that says one platform for proficiency there may be some wisdom to this.

The reason I say that is I cary a 1911. I shoot it in IDPA and take classes with it. It does not have much blue left on it because it is my primary gun that I want to manipulate without much thought. That being said on occasion (every 6 months or so) my trigger control gets sloppy. To fix it up I pull out the J frame and dry fire and go to the range with a few hundred rounds and work on trigger control. It is a fun way to keep from getting lazy with that single action 4# pull.

So there may be a use in training for multiple weapons, however I will still use what I carry as much as I can.

[YVK]

I'm getting much faster followups on the 3x5, substantially faster. That suggests to me that the gun isn't moving as much in recoil. Is that because it has a higher bore axis, or because I shot 50k rounds of .45 last year and my grip/stance/technique improved?

JFK, the above quote belongs to Todd; the gun he is referring to as not moving much in recoil is a 9 mm Glock. I take this quote as a supporting evidence, albeit somewhat speculative, that my statement is not without a merit.