Banning the SERPA

[ToddG]

Folks ... I'm seriously considering following the example of Vickers and others by outright banning SERPA holsters in my classes. Along those lines, I'm trying to create a list of schools and agencies that don't allow SERPA holsters. If you know of any, please list them below. Thanks!

[Jay Cunningham]

I've banned them in my classes and personal training. Vickers banned them in his VSM curriculum as well.

[JV_]

They're banned on the Georgia State Police shooting ranges.

I believe Tactical Response has been them as well, but can't find it on their web site.

[Paul Gomez]

Tactical Response did prohibit the Serpa for many years but the owner reversed that policy last year.

[Kyle Reese]

Tactical Response did prohibit the Serpa for many years but the owner reversed that policy last year.

Why was that?

[Paul Gomez]

Because he said so.

[LittleLebowski]

Suarez banned them almost two years ago.

[DonovanM]

Why was that?

Maybe he got some cash from the Blackhawk marketing gestapo? :p

[NextGhost]

Banned by the USAF for SF and AFOSI

[ffhounddog]

I banned them for my Division purchase order.

Then some stupid LTC showed up with one. WTF I got everyone free 6004's in FDE why not use what I got you f'ing idiot.

I will never use a SERPA again...

[jlw]

They're banned on the Georgia State Police shooting ranges.

I believe Tactical Response has been them as well, but can't find it on their web site.

Well, this isn't exactly correct.

First, there is no such entity as the "Georgia State Police".

They were banned by the Georgia Public Safety Training Center, but someone higher up the GPSTC food chain than the director of the firearms training ordered that they be allowed; so, now they are.

[JV_]

They were banned by the Georgia Public Safety Training CenterThanks for the correction, it's been a long time since I read it, my memory must have been cloudy.

So now my initial post was almost entirely worthless/incorrect, LOL.

[jlw]

Thanks for the correction, it's been a long time since I read it, my memory must have been cloudy.

So now my initial post was almost entirely worthless/incorrect, LOL.

Welcome to VolGrad's world. (I sure hope he sees this :) )

[Paul Gomez]

They were banned by the Georgia Public Safety Training Center, but someone higher up the GPSTC food chain than the director of the firearms training ordered that they be allowed; so, now they are.

One small department got a sweet deal and started issuing Serpa Duty Holsters. When they sent guys to GPSTC, the stink started.

[fuse]

I see enlisted guards and base civilian police using them at the gate all the time. (this is at a US Navy base)

I assume they are issued to them, sadly.

[Kyle Reese]

I banned them for my Division purchase order.

Then some stupid LTC showed up with one. WTF I got everyone free 6004's in FDE why not use what I got you f'ing idiot.

I will never use a SERPA again...

I think many folks are coming to the realization that the SERPA sucks, and in time the only folks that will be extolling it's virtues will be the uninformed, the Youtube celebrities and folks who think it's okay to carry w/o a round in the chamber.

[Prdator]

Was talking to a instructor buddy of mine and the put into words what Ive always thought of the Serpa.

"As gun men our trigger finger should only have One job on the draw stroke, Working the trigger!!! Not pushing a button on the holster or operating a light switch or ordering a pizza, just working the trigger" ( Of course this is providing that the trigger needs worked on that particular draw stroke)

Most every instructor I know either hates them or puts up with them, but NONE recommend them!!

[VolGrad]

Welcome to VolGrad's world. (I sure hope he sees this :) )

Ass.

This post is entirely 100% correct. :p

[JFK]

SERPA < Spiders

So as Prdator would say.....



http://i976.photobucket.com/albums/ae245/okprdator/kill-it-with-fire-demotivational-poster-1235695993.jpg

[willowofwisp]

Michigan Defensive Firearms Institute (Steve Fisher and Assoc.)

I think Steve Fisher banned them over a year ago, there was a video of a shooter in his class whose gun was locked up in the serpa (he hadn't even rolled around in the dirt!)

http://www.michigantrainer.com/

[Tamara]

Maybe he got some cash from the Blackhawk marketing gestapo? :p

True Story:

¡Blackhawk! is one of the sponsors of this shindig at Blackwater back in '08. A bunch of us gun bloggers go for a three day class with Todd Jarrett and get the dog-n-pony shows from Blackwater, ¡Blackhawk!, and Painted Ordnance.

Among the swag we get from ¡Blackhawk! is a box with a belt and a couple of holsters in it: A CQC (which is a fine and serviceable holster that I use for range use and casual competition to this day) and a SERPA. It is obvious that we are meant to use the provided gear for the upcoming class. (Here is where I pause and reflect on the irony of leaving a Springfield Pro and a Sparks belt and VM-2 in my room so I can use a Para in a plastic holster for the class...)

The virtues of the SERPA are extolled. Todd shows off how fast one can be with the SERPA. Everybody wants to use their SERPA. I'm all like "Are you guys fuckin' nuts?" and shot the class with the CQC. I mean, are gun grabs a real problem at Blackwater, anyway?

I'm not sure I've ever used the SERPA with anything but my blue gun...

[VolGrad]

Michigan Defensive Firearms Institute (Steve Fisher and Assoc.)

I think Steve Fisher banned them over a year ago, there was a video of a shooter in his class whose gun was locked up in the serpa (he hadn't even rolled around in the dirt!)

http://www.michigantrainer.com/
I bet I know who they do recommend though. :D

[Paul Gomez]

I believe Steve also had a student ND with a Serpa a few years ago. Pincus had a cop ND with one back at Valhalla in CO.
I've watched Jarrett demo with a Serpa a few times. Each time, I saw him fumble the release, but he is fast enough that most did not notice. Claude Werner has observed the same thing with Jarrett demoing at SHOT.

[Abraxas]

SERPA < Spiders

So as Prdator would say.....



http://i976.photobucket.com/albums/ae245/okprdator/kill-it-with-fire-demotivational-poster-1235695993.jpg

That is awesome. When the SERPA first came out I thought it was great. I have since changed my mind. I am almost ashamed of some of my opinions in the past, and often wonder what I believe now that will change in the future

[Al T.]

I am almost ashamed of some of my opinions in the past

Dude, I'm over the big five-oh and you have no idea what stupid was unless you lived (and shot) in the '70's. Things change and (hopefully) we learn as we age. My opinions have changed quite a bit as I get older. I'm not ashamed that my strong opinions changed radically due to training and field experience proving me wrong to myself. Acquire the information, process the data and apply if appropriate. Big boy pants help. :p

Todd, interesting take on the problems with Serpa holsters in this youtube video:

http://www.youtube.com/user/Sturmgewehre#p/u/6/GDpxVG9XFJc

[David Armstrong]

That is awesome. When the SERPA first came out I thought it was great. I have since changed my mind. I am almost ashamed of some of my opinions in the past, and often wonder what I believe now that will change in the future
Don't be ashamed of that. As one who has freely expressed his opinions in the past, and one who has also had those opinions change, I would suggest it is far more shameful to be so rigid that one's opinion does not change even in the wake of new evidence. Heck, that might make a good thread, Todd.... gun/gunfighting opinions I have held and changed over the years??

[TheLaw]

Welcome to VolGrad's world. (I sure hope he sees this :) )


LOL - Seems like this follows him wherever he goes. :)

[Double]

I'm been trying for over a year to inform our program managers about the issues with this holster. A link to the youtube video from Tex sent the day he posted it. Our policy doesn't dictate what holster we carry, it list certain requirements and that everyone on the team uses the same holster. So different units could very well be using different holsters. The fact that it uses a "Pivoting Hood" vice a "Rotating Hood" as our authorised options allow should have stopped it from being used. As I see operational units using them, I stop, explain and demonstrate the potential dangers and have so far gotten everyone of them to recall the holster from the individual units.

As far as service wide however.... it's going to take someone wearing blue to get shot before the message is sent out.

As a safety officer for competitions I'm observant of what types of holsters that competitors use and reposition myself when SERPA's are being used before I run them through a COF. My staff was skeptical of the possibilities until they watch some of the video's that have been posted lately.

[orionz06]

My sisters spouse has a co-worker who was shot while they were attempting to draw their gun on a murderer. There was a mild investigation as to why, but the wound was so minor the officer was back to work the next day. The final word was "Level III retention requires more practice" and people needed to put more time on. The fact that the holster could have been jammed was never considered. This was late 2010. I know that agency still issues/requires Serpas, not just Level III retention.

The murderer who shot the cop has not been caught. They were present long enough for the officer to piss with the shitty holster, shoot a few times at the cop and leave. When presented with the argument that the Serpa could be directly linked to further murders the relative simply says "but my instructor (from their academy) says they are good."

[virginiatactical]

John Murphy of FPF Training also Bans the Serpa. Well he 1/2 bans it. Just not allowed with striker fired weapons.

http://www.fpftraining.com/ccsd.html

I can see the merit of banning it, and I am personally not a fan. I have not banned it in my courses yet, but I am also considering it for 2012. My biggest issue is what if that is the issue gear of that police officer? Am I really going to not allow him to use the holster he is issued?

I had a private course with an LEO a few months ago, and his holster was the Serpa with his G17. It would not make sense (in my head) to tell him that he cannot shoot his duty gun with his duty holster. Especially since he was paying out of pocket for 2 days of private training. We talked about the safety issues of the Serpa, and continued with the training regime.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Well, I guess they won't be banned on USMC ranges for the time being.

[SecondsCount]

.......

We talked about the safety issues of the Serpa, and continued with the training regime.

I think that is a good way of handling the situation.

[will_1400]

I'm just waiting for someone to ghetto-rig a SERPA into an AIWB rig... whoever does so will earn a well-deserved Darwin Award in a fairly quick manner.

[GearScout]

In case you hadn't heard, we are reporting today (http://militarytimes.com/blogs/gearscout/2011/09/12/usmc-adopts-blackhawk-serpa-holsters/) that the USMC just bought 27k SERPA Level 2 holsters. One for every M9 in the arsenal.

No joke.

[fuse]

I'm just waiting for someone to ghetto-rig a SERPA into an AIWB rig... whoever does so will earn a well-deserved Darwin Award in a fairly quick manner.

if one does that, this is what one sees right before expiration


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ubw5N8iVDHI

[Failure2Stop]

In case you hadn't heard, we are reporting today (http://militarytimes.com/blogs/gearscout/2011/09/12/usmc-adopts-blackhawk-serpa-holsters/) that the USMC just bought 27k SERPA Level 2 holsters. One for every M9 in the arsenal.

No joke.

My disappointment with my previous employer knows no higher levels.

[TR675]

In case you hadn't heard, we are reporting today (http://militarytimes.com/blogs/gearscout/2011/09/12/usmc-adopts-blackhawk-serpa-holsters/) that the USMC just bought 27k SERPA Level 2 holsters. One for every M9 in the arsenal.

No joke.

Simultaneously showing that just because .mil buys it doesn't mean its good, and giving every knucklehead who thinks SERPA's are totally rad a lot of reinforcement.

"You can't ban it! The Marines use it! 'Murica! Fuck yea!"

At least the Marines are deployed in environments that don't have lots of rocks and dirt and sand and stuff to clog up their cool new holsters, so I can't really see this decision coming back to bite them in the ass.

[John Hearne]

John Murphy of FPF Training also Bans the Serpa. Well he 1/2 bans it. Just not allowed with striker fired weapons.

This strikes me as reasonable. I've not heard of any Serpa horror stories with Sigs (or any DA pistol) and Serpas. Memphis PD issues the Serpa for their DAO and DAK Sigs and haven't had any ND's that I know of. The holsters apparently fall off of the mounting plate but no ND's with a long trigger pull weapon.

[Combat Commander]

I bet I know who they do recommend though. :D

Could it be Raven ?

[peterb]

A new Serpa review from the Military Times website:

http://militarytimes.com/blogs/gearscout/2011/09/24/we-have-our-own-look-at-the-serpa/

[ToddG]

GearScout's article was the final straw for me. Just announced on PTC that SERPAs are banned beginning in 2012. Flames will arrive in 3... 2... 1...

[DocGKR]

Wise choice!

[gtmtnbiker98]

You aren't alone, I just banned them for all IDPA events and training that I host, so when you come back to CCFSA you can put some of the blame on me. As for flaming, I have endured quite a bit of hate. I simply told them that the pay one receives in running IDPA doesn't justify the vicarious liability. When asked if they wanted to assume the liability, the discussion ended.

[HeadHunter]

It's not banned at Rogers but Ronnie and I have lots of pictures of creative ways people disable the Serpa's lock.

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s91/HeadHunter_album/Heaters/DefeatedSerpa.jpg

As one HRP guy told another student: "Dude, the best way to use that holster is just break the locking tab completely out."

[JFK]

....creative ways people disable the Serpa's lock.

..."Dude, the best way to use that holster is just break the locking tab completely out."

Why not just get a holster that does not have this already. Plenty of Kydex out there with decent turnaround time. Strange the trouble people go though to adapt rather than just do.

[HeadHunter]

Why not just get a holster that does not have this already. Plenty of Kydex out there with decent turnaround time. Strange the trouble people go though to adapt rather than just do.

They drank the Kool-Aid and then didn't want to spend the money for the stomach pump.

And Rogers is a 5 day course in the middle of nowhere so they're basically stuck with what they brought.

[GearScout]

Perhaps I'm beating a wounded horse, but I'd hate for it to get back up and start running again...

I hear there was a SERPA related shooting today at the Smith and Wesson firearms training center: Firearms instructor shoots self at S&W- UN firearms instructor shot himself in the thigh (http://www.wwlp.com/dpp/news/local/hampden/Firearms-instructor-shoots-self-at-S&W)

[fuse]

All aboard the fail train.

[JConn]

All aboard the fail train.

Seriously man, we all know the fail vehicle is a boat. Failboat....one word....capital F.

[tmoore912]

I have no way of knowing if this Cadet was using a SERPA or not. Anyone in the North Georgia area have any way of finding out?


A Georgia Northwestern Technical College police cadet accidentally shot himself in the leg last night.

According to Craig McDaniel, president of GNTC:

The cadet was in engaged in a supervised shooting exercise at the GNTC firing range in Calhoun.

McDaniel visited the student at Gordon Hospital where the cadet told him when he went remove his weapon from his holster; he must have put one of his fingers on the trigger.

The weapon that discharged was a 40 caliber Glock.

The bullet had entered the top of the student’s right calf and exited at the ankle, and was found in the student’s boot when it was removed by paramedics.

Two investigators from the Calhoun Police Department, Tony Pyle and Kevin Sutton, arrived at the hospital at approximately 9:30 p.m. and spoke with the student and those of us from Georgia Northwestern Technical College as a part of their investigation.

http://www.calhountimes.com/view/full_story/15846209/article-UPDATE--GNTC-police-cadet-accidentally-shoots-himself-?instance=home_news_1st_left

[fuse]

brb, registering www.serpadeathwatch.com

[Tamara]

brb, registering www.serpadeathwatch.com
Dude, if you really didn't do that, you haven't got a hair on your ass. :D

[fuse]

It's true, all hat and no cattle here

[theblacknight]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOCFL8hVuw4&feature=player_embedded

[TGS]

Hahaha.......Glock fail....

[orionz06]

Hahaha.......Glock fail....

XD

[TGS]

XD

I fail.....

[Aray]

I fail.....

That's funny right there...

[NickDrak]

More SERPA fail....

I saw my former partner @ work wearing a SERPA yesterday after I finally convinced him to ditch it in favor of a Safariland ALS. I saw red. *I then ripped his pistol clean off of his belt with one sharp tug. (*His pistol was cleared/unloaded first and he said that if I could rip it off of his belt, he wouldnt wear it ever gain....I dont think he will be wearing this one anymore!)

He was seated, and I grabbed it with my right hand while standing/facing him. I gave it one sharp tug towards me and the SERPA holster body snapped in-half. This is the 3rd SERPA I have managed to destroy doing this demo, but this is the first one that split in-half in this way. The two others sheared at the belt attachment/mounting screw interface.

Sure ANY piece of gear will break, but these things break too easily and too frequently at various parts of the holster to be considered a serious holster. My mission is to do this demo to every officer at my department to convince them to ditch their SLURPA's.

Pics:
http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/944/20111109190437.jpg
http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/4954/20111109203036.jpg

[fuse]

Well done.

Seems like if I try this with the guards at the navy base I work at, they'll probably miss my educational message.

[EricP]

I took a class this past weekend where I saw more Serpas and the Sig ITAC version than I've ever seen anywhere. One gentleman had a 1911 in a drop leg who was fighting like hell to get it out of his holster on a transition drill. Happily, he managed not to shoot himself, but I'm still not sure how.

[RickB]

IDPA Canada is considering banning the SERPA from competition. I know the Area Coordinator is in favor, but don't know how far down the road they are in taking action.

[gtmtnbiker98]

IDPA Canada is considering banning the SERPA from competition. I know the Area Coordinator is in favor, but don't know how far down the road they are in taking action.
I'm the IDPA MD at our Club and I banned them a few months ago. After speaking with our AC, it was determined that I could do so at the Club level. Don't know whether or not IDPA will consider any limitations on their use or not.

[mscott327]

IDPA Canada is considering banning the SERPA from competition. I know the Area Coordinator is in favor, but don't know how far down the road they are in taking action.

I know the IDPA club that I shoot at has also banned the serpa.

[Odin Bravo One]

All this banning, just as the Serpa becomes standard issue at USSOCOM............interesting. Hahahaha.

[jetfire]

Hey, no one said that Blackhawk doesn't have a bitchin' marketing department.

[theblacknight]

All this banning, just as the Serpa becomes standard issue at USSOCOM............interesting. Hahahaha.


WTF is going on? First my Marine Corps, now Socom? This is Obama's fault!(somehow:D)

[TGS]

FWIW, I have a close friend with 3rd Recon's leadership that was trying to get 6004's instead of whatever they were using(either SERPAs or nylon rigs I'd guess). Just because MARCORSYSCOM fell in love with the SERPA doesn't mean that everyone loves them, or even wants them at all.

They do, however, absolutely love their MEUSOC 1911's.

[JodyH]

Some of the USBP Agents are using SERPAs now.
A few of the FLETC instructors who shoot our 3-gun matches were using SERPAs.
None of them had any problems that I saw but nearly all the holsters had "modifications" to them like duct tape and rubber bands wrapped around them.
Crazy way to save money if you ask me.

[saints75]

I stopped wearing my Serpa late of 09 or early 2010. I use an ALS duty holster at work. I used the Serpa off duty. I started thinking about it. I am going to he ALS on duty to the Serpa off duty. Two different lock systems all together. I started thinking that I might shoot myself in the leg with the Serpa because I have to think about or would not able to get my gun out of my ALS because I have to think about. I stopped using the holster all together. The more I read about the Serpa, the more I reallized it was crap and I got taken by fancy ads LOL Now I am using an ALS off duty. I like it. I will never go back to the Serpa ever again.

[Joseph B.]

I know of a few incidents of ND’s and people shooting themselves, who were using SERPA holsters. One incident happened at a local IDPA match.

As for the “holster” being the cause of this, I don’t believe it to be the holster or the designs fault. I believe it to be a lack of proper training and skill of the individual using the holster. I use a SERPA drop rig for my military M9 stuff, I also use the slide safety and do not put my finger on the trigger until my sights are on target and I am ready to fire the pistol.

I will not be banning the SERPA from my training programs. But I will not allow a shooter who I feel is unsafe to continue in one of my course, especially if they are unsafe and using a SERPA. I give a detailed brief on the importance of safety with the SERPA holster, as with all holsters. But I do stress the issue with SERPA users.

Until I have proof that a ND has resulted directly due to the SERPA design and not shooter error, I will not be banning them. YMMV

[theblacknight]

Was cruising the PX looking at the airsoft quality nylon gear and overpriced knives on my way towards a strap cutter. Saw the holster section. Seems like even MCCS has a bias towards Blackhawk gear.
Serpa wall of death, many configs and carries.
http://img.tapatalk.com/aefcbdd7-d941-2544.jpg

the SL SLS section.
http://img.tapatalk.com/aefe71f4-f9e5-57ce.jpg
Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

[theblacknight]

wow tapatalk fuck that last pic. They were like half the stock compared to the Serpas.

[NickDrak]

I know of a few incidents of ND’s and people shooting themselves, who were using SERPA holsters. One incident happened at a local IDPA match.

As for the “holster” being the cause of this, I don’t believe it to be the holster or the designs fault. I believe it to be a lack of proper training and skill of the individual using the holster. I use a SERPA drop rig for my military M9 stuff, I also use the slide safety and do not put my finger on the trigger until my sights are on target and I am ready to fire the pistol.

I will not be banning the SERPA from my training programs. But I will not allow a shooter who I feel is unsafe to continue in one of my course, especially if they are unsafe and using a SERPA. I give a detailed brief on the importance of safety with the SERPA holster, as with all holsters. But I do stress the issue with SERPA users.

Until I have proof that a ND has resulted directly due to the SERPA design and not shooter error, I will not be banning them. YMMV

I have to respectfully disagree with you that there is not an inherent design flaw with the SERPA holster which can contribute to accidental discharges.

Over the last decade or so there have been several instructors who have begun teaching a different method of trigger finger placement which has the shooter consciously curl the trigger finger inward and (above the trigger) to a set reference point on the frame of the pistol. For example, the take down lever on a Glock pistol is a commonly used reference point for this technique. Here is an article by Dave Spaulding on the flexed trigger finger method: http://www.lawofficer.com/article/magazine-feature/trigger-finger-conundrum

I his article he explains that when a shooter experiences an immediate threat or is startled while gripping their pistol, the normal human startle reflex is to clench up. One of the things that end up clenched are the hands. The theory behind pre-emptively curling or flexing the trigger finger to a set reference point is that since it is already flexed it will not fall in-line with the rest of the fingers on the shooting hand, which if not consciously flexed, would automatically place the trigger finger inside of the trigger guard and onto the trigger if startled.

Now, apply this concept(s) to the SERPA's release button and I believe this is where the design flaw comes into play. Sure, one could say "just don't use the curled/flexed trigger finger technique and instead keep your trigger finger straight and your trigger finger wont go near the trigger when drawing from the SERPA". Taking into consideration that the pre-emptive method of curling/flexing of the trigger finger is designed to defeat the human bodies normal startle reflex reaction, to me it is a clear design flaw on the part of the people/person who designed the SERPA retention mechanism.

Try this....

Unload and double/triple check clear yours or another shooters pistol who carries a SERPA.

Start out holstered in the SERPA with a firm grip on the pistol with the shooting hand and with the trigger finger flexed/curled.

Press the SERPA release while drawing the pistol with the flexed trigger finger.

Check where the trigger finger lands once the trigger guard is clear of the holster.

I have done this demo dozens of times with many different officers I work with who insist on wearing a SERPA. All of their trigger fingers go straight into the trigger guard on or near the trigger.

The typical SERPA defense statement is something to the effect of "If you keep your trigger finger straight like you are supposed to, it wont go anywhere near the trigger". If the normal human startle reflex under stress is to clench-up, it seems it is very difficult, if not impossible to guarantee that every shooter you come across or train will be able to keep their trigger finger straight while depressing the SERPA release button during their draw-stroke under stress whether real (getting shot at), or artificial (a shot timer).

I firmly believe that the design and placement of the SERPA release mechanism can and has directly contributed to people shooting themselves during the draw-stroke of a loaded pistol.

[Joseph B.]

I have to respectfully disagree with you that there is not an inherent design flaw with the SERPA holster which can contribute to accidental discharges.

No worries, I think we will have to agree to disagree here. Nothing wrong with that…

Over the last decade or so there have been several instructors who have begun teaching a different method of trigger finger placement which has the shooter consciously curl the trigger finger inward and (above the trigger) to a set reference point on the frame of the pistol. For example, the take down lever on a Glock pistol is a commonly used reference point for this technique. Here is an article by Dave Spaulding on the flexed trigger finger method: http://www.lawofficer.com/article/magazine-feature/trigger-finger-conundrum

I his article he explains that when a shooter experiences an immediate threat or is startled while gripping their pistol, the normal human startle reflex is to clench up. One of the things that end up clenched are the hands. The theory behind pre-emptively curling or flexing the trigger finger to a set reference point is that since it is already flexed it will not fall in-line with the rest of the fingers on the shooting hand, which if not consciously flexed, would automatically place the trigger finger inside of the trigger guard and onto the trigger if startled.

Although I agree that a natural reaction of “clenching up” when startled is probably common, I would also say that it is very dependent in the individuals stress level and reaction to stress. I also think that proper training and developing muscle memory changes an individual’s reaction to startled and or stressful situations.

Now, apply this concept(s) to the SERPA's release button and I believe this is where the design flaw comes into play. Sure, one could say "just don't use the curled/flexed trigger finger technique and instead keep your trigger finger straight and your trigger finger wont go near the trigger when drawing from the SERPA". Taking into consideration that the pre-emptive method of curling/flexing of the trigger finger is designed to defeat the human bodies normal startle reflex reaction, to me it is a clear design flaw on the part of the people/person who designed the SERPA retention mechanism.

I won’t say that the SERPA is the best design or that it could have better thought out, but I also can’t say that it is an actual design flaw. Basic safety principles 101 “keep your finger off the trigger until ready to fire” if someone is doing so with a SERPA the gun will not go off. Also the argument that design is flawed could also be applied to all holsters, in that if someone is placing their finger on the trigger as soon as it clears the trigger guard they would face the same result as with the SERPA. Would they not?

Try this....

Unload and double/triple check clear yours or another shooters pistol who carries a SERPA.

Start out holstered in the SERPA with a firm grip on the pistol with the shooting hand and with the trigger finger flexed/curled.

Press the SERPA release while drawing the pistol with the flexed trigger finger.

Check where the trigger finger lands once the trigger guard is clear of the holster.



I have done this demo dozens of times with many different officers I work with who insist on wearing a SERPA. All of their trigger fingers go straight into the trigger guard on or near the trigger.

Although I appreciate your demo and thought process behind it, I do not care to attempt something outside of my normal training of a draw stroke (i.e. finger pointed straight and high to ensure it does not go in the trigger guard until I am ready to put it there). I don’t want to take away from the good habit I already have. ;)

The typical SERPA defense statement is something to the effect of "If you keep your trigger finger straight like you are supposed to, it wont go anywhere near the trigger". If the normal human startle reflex under stress is to clench-up, it seems it is very difficult, if not impossible to guarantee that every shooter you come across or train will be able to keep their trigger finger straight while depressing the SERPA release button during their draw-stroke under stress whether real (getting shot at), or artificial (a shot timer).

But really, it is the truth. If the individual follows the basic safety rules, trains themselves to follow them every time and builds muscle memory to do so, it really becomes a moot point. Again the same results would come from any holster if someone fails to train and follow safety.

I firmly believe that the design and placement of the SERPA release mechanism can and has directly contributed to people shooting themselves during the draw-stroke of a loaded pistol.

You are very much entitled to your opinion, I obviously do not share the same opinion, but I do understand your comments. That said, I feel that if it was truly the holster and not the shooter, 1) Black Hawk would be getting their asses sued off right now, and 2) all agencies would have banned them from use (which they have not).

Outside of those things, I have read reports of LEO’s shooting themselves by use of a level 3 Safari Land holster. Should that holster be banned as well? Or should we ensure that we not blame equipment for individual’s failure in being safe?

Not looking for an argument, and I do respect your opinion on the matter and do appreciate the respectful disagreement post. I just have a very different view on the matter…

[theblacknight]

Does the ALS have the same lock up problems?

[JodyH]

Does the ALS have the same lock up problems?
I've run a ALS through a couple of multi-day classes, use one for 3-gun matches, as a general purpose OWB holster and it's my go to holster for dual-sport motorcycle riding.
Never had any issues with sand, dirt, mud or rocks interfering with the lock.
I'm sure it could happen (anythings possible), but I haven't had it happen.

[NickDrak]

You are very much entitled to your opinion, I obviously do not share the same opinion, but I do understand your comments. That said, I feel that if it was truly the holster and not the shooter, 1) Black Hawk would be getting their asses sued off right now, and 2) all agencies would have banned them from use (which they have not).


I firmly believe that wont happen because cops love them soo much. I also believe the main reason cops love them soo much is because they are soo cheap....and im being serious.



Outside of those things, I have read reports of LEO’s shooting themselves by use of a level 3 Safari Land holster. Should that holster be banned as well? Or should we ensure that we not blame equipment for individual’s failure in being safe?


If it can be directly related to the holster causing the officer to shoot themself then absolutely. I dont think that is the case with any of the Safariland holster design I have seen over the years.



Not looking for an argument, and I do respect your opinion on the matter and do appreciate the respectful disagreement post. I just have a very different view on the matter…

[ToddG]

That said, I feel that if it was truly the holster and not the shooter, 1) Black Hawk would be getting their asses sued off right now, and 2) all agencies would have banned them from use (which they have not).

Based on what do you conclude that Blackhawk hasn't been sued over the SERPA or that agencies aren't banning them? Plenty of agencies have, in fact, banned them and the list seems to be growing, not shrinking.

The same logic above could apply to Glock's "pull the trigger" takedown procedure. Plenty of agencies still use Glocks even though years of evidence prove that pulling the trigger as part of the takedown procedure leads to a significantly greater number of accidents -- which shouldn't surprise anyone, though somehow it always seems to. But Glock has in fact been sued a number of times over this (many times, in fact) and quite a few agencies won't allow the Glock because of that design issue.

The mere fact that something is popular doesn't mean it's without flaws.

I met a cop at the range this evening whose department issues Glock's clip-on flashlight. He's on his second one. The first launched off the gun, broken, on the second shot he fired with it. The one he was using tonight also went flying. Apparently, it's an established known issue within the department. But they get the lights for free from Glock, so they keep using them. Using LE purchasing decisions as evidence of quality without knowledge of testing and field results is very flawed.


Does the ALS have the same lock up problems?

I've never experienced it or witnessed it or heard of a properly documented case of it. However, I do recall reading at least one internet report (by someone advocating the SERPA) who had some vague information about such an incident.

[Joseph B.]

Based on what do you conclude that Blackhawk hasn't been sued over the SERPA or that agencies aren't banning them? Plenty of agencies have, in fact, banned them and the list seems to be growing, not shrinking.

I have not seen any documents stating that BlackHawk is being sued, but you are right that does not make it fact.

The same logic above could apply to Glock's "pull the trigger" takedown procedure. Plenty of agencies still use Glocks even though years of evidence prove that pulling the trigger as part of the takedown procedure leads to a significantly greater number of accidents -- which shouldn't surprise anyone, though somehow it always seems to. But Glock has in fact been sued a number of times over this (many times, in fact) and quite a few agencies won't allow the Glock because of that design issue.

Glock is the number one selling service pistol for US-LE, and although again not the best design, it is not the design that is flawed. If the pistol is cleared correctly, no accidental bang. If the SERPA is used with proper safety (i.e. keep your finger off the trigger until ready to fire) than no accidental bang.

The mere fact that something is popular doesn't mean it's without flaws.

I agree, and I would not reccomend a SERPA for a new shooter and would not allow a unsafe shooter to use one around me.

I met a cop at the range this evening whose department issues Glock's clip-on flashlight. He's on his second one. The first launched off the gun, broken, on the second shot he fired with it. The one he was using tonight also went flying. Apparently, it's an established known issue within the department. But they get the lights for free from Glock, so they keep using them. Using LE purchasing decisions as evidence of quality without knowledge of testing and field results is very flawed.



I've never experienced it or witnessed it or heard of a properly documented case of it. However, I do recall reading at least one internet report (by someone advocating the SERPA) who had some vague information about such an incident.

I think my biggest disagreement with the “ban the SERPA” is that there are very competent, safe shooters who use them as daily carry. I don’t think that it would be reasonable to tell a safe, competent shooter that he could not use a SERPA (his carry holster) in my class because the holster in unsafe and of a flawed design. Especially without any sort of documented proof (i.e. a universal ban in LEA’s, major lawsuits, etc) that support the SERPA is flawed argument. Believe me; if I had that type of documentation I would in fact ban them in order to negate any possible liabilities. I fully understand what you are saying, but also attempt to maintain a reasonable stance on the issue regarding safe shooters.

As I said in the first post YMMV.

[ToddG]

I understand you're not aware of a large number of SERPA-related suits. My point was, were you aware of the large number of suits related to Glock's takedown procedure? Lots of things like that happen in the industry without becoming widespread broadcasts. In most cases, settlement stipulates no public comment or disclosure by the injured party.

Regarding the issue of design flaw, perhaps we're just using words differently.

If an auto manufacturer created a system that used a single pedal for both gas and brake, pushing it slightly more right for gas and slightly more left for braking, you could certainly argue that someone adequately trained who does it the right way would never have a problem. But nonetheless, I'd bet big money that you'd see a lot more accidents with the one-pedal car when drivers made the car stop or go when they wanted it to do the opposite. Just because it's user error doesn't absolve the equipment.

The world is full of consumer products that have systems designed with human factors in mind to prevent accidents or injuries. The grate over your desk fan's blades isn't there because the manufacturer thinks you'll purposely shove your hand into the whirling maelstrom; it's because they understand that humans are capable of making mistakes. They design their product with that in mind and try to minimize the chance for a mistake.

We have some pilots on the forum. I bet they could tick off a long list of anti-pilot-error features on modern aircraft. As I said earlier in the thread, airline pilots get more hours of training, more scientifically tested and proven training, and more realistic training than probably 99% of the gun owners on the planet. Yet every year, a few of them frak up and kill a bunch of passengers along with themselves. If a seasoned professional pilot can have a brain fade and forget to put his landing gear down during a routine approach, it doesn't take much humility to admit I might make a mistake when confronted with sudden unexpected life-threatening harm.

It's not a black and white, either/or kind of problem. Yes, there needs to be operator error for an accident to occur with the SERPA. Guns don't spontaneously discharge in the holster without contact by a human being. But at the same time, there is plenty of evidence to show that the design is fundamentally more prone to those kinds of accidents. Many of us were able to predict that when we saw the prototypes however many years ago.

[JDM]

Here's some questions for everyone advocating the SERPA:

-Why do you continue to advocate this holster?
-What does the SERPA do, that a Safariland ALS or 5.11 Thumbdrive doesn't?
-Why is the SERPA even worth consideration when pitted against the two holsters I mentioned? None of them are concealable. They are all "quick" retention holsters. they all serve the same purpose. And the two that aren't the SERPA are actually well built.
-What benefits does the SERPA provide over the other comparable options, specifically the ones I mentioned?

[rudy99]

Until I have proof that a ND has resulted directly due to the SERPA design and not shooter error, I will not be banning them. YMMV

I doubt that it is possible to ever get the proof you are looking for. To me, the SERPA/lack of training argument is similar to the caliber/shot placement issue. People want to use a small caliber weapon and justify its use by claiming its effectiveness on the target is all about shot placement. Well, who is placing the shot? Similar to a training issue with SERPA, who is actually going to train? Is the typically SERPA user someone who would train themselves on its proper use or seek out any 3rd party to assist them?

You've also got to think something is up when there is this much controversy regarding a holster. Just google "blackhawk serpa problem" and "safariland als problem". Most of the SERPA results are related to concerns about its safety. Most of the ALS results are related to issues with fit and other superficial issues.

[David Armstrong]

Just because it's user error doesn't absolve the equipment.
One of my favorite complaints with trainers...."If they would just practice more" "If everyone would just do it right" "That won't happen if you alwys follow the rules" and similar homilies are great but they seem to ignore reality. Most folks won't practice more, everyone won't always do it right, not everyone will always follow the rules.

[Joseph B.]

Tactical Immersion has not banned the SERPA holster as of yet, and will not be doing so until documentation is available that the holster is in fact unsafe and that the holster has directly resulted to accidental discharges.

[vcdgrips]

Mr. Bell,

Thank you for your service, past present and future.

Re the SERPA, I would offer the following for your consideration. I have had a hand in teaching students at the CGSC since 2005 in the use of the pistol.
On multiple occasions, students using the SERPA missed the button and failed to present thier pistol in a timely fashion when shooting against others in man on man competition. I acknowledge that this is also an end user issue though what, IMHO, is a flawed design, certain can contibute to that issue.

More disturbingly, on at least two seperate occasions, students were unable to present their weapons immediately after they had been shooting from the prone and other unconventional/"jackass" positions. During both instances, small debris such as a pebble/dirt etc had managed to become jammed behind the release button, locking the gun into place. No combatives were being performed prior to the incident.

I have seen a video from a SouthNarc class in which this happened as well. Obviously, combatives were being performed at the time of the holster's "lock up". I have also seen video of snow "locking up" the release as well when the holster was manipulated in a pile of snow to simulate it being worn by the end user rolling around on thre ground prior to presenting the weapon.

I can tell you from first hand knowledge that a 1300+ person department in my metropolitan area is no long issuing the holster in favor of the Safarailand ALS given both the ND and lock "issues" discussed in this thread.

Though I am not your atty nor am I giving you legal advice, were I engaged as such by a trainer or school, I would advise against the use of the SERPA.
While in a typical ND situation, the end user may very well be primarily at fault (i.e. 80%). However, in many states' negligence schemes, the school /trainer could still be responsible for the remaining 20%. 20% of a 6 or 7 figure number for the death or permanent disability would be a life altering number for a school/trainer to take even with good insurance,especially if one could show the school/instuctor had notice of the issue and chose not to take any remedial action.

On its best day, the SERPA is a widely available holster of modest quality with ever wider growing record of lock up and ND issues.
Trainers who have at least your world experience and have been training longer than you have been alive are rejecting the holster platform.
Food for thought.

Be safe and well,
David Barnes

[Sparks2112]

I guess the part that baffles me is why this is even a hard decision for some folks. Let me share some personal experience. I have an almost three year old son. When my wife was pregnant I worked three jobs, bought us a house blah blah blah.oney was extremely tight. Anyway, my wife and I bought him a drop side crib. After he was born there were a few incidents where children were injured in drop side cribs. Now this was a very small sampling keep in mind. We bought a new crib, even though we were pretty close to dirt poor at the time (having a kid with no health insurance is expensive.)

My point is this. Let's take out of the equation whether or not the Serpa causes accidents or locks guns up. The mere fact SO many people are calling the design into doubt should be enough to seriously evaluate it.

1. Does the Serpa offer any advantages that other products don't provide?) NO
2. Are there similar designs that offer the same features and have a less questionable reputation?) YES
3. Did any of us design the Serpa, receive royalties for each Serpa sold, marry the thing?) NO

I don't know about anyone else but if there's a similarly priced product that does the same thing and isn't trashed by some major names in the industry who don't routinely go around trashing things I'm going to maybe pay attention. It doesn't hurt me to not buy a Serpa, so why hold onto the thing so hard?

[Joseph B.]

Mr. Bell,

Thank you for your service, past present and future.

Re the SERPA, I would offer the following for your consideration. I have had a hand in teaching students at the CGSC since 2005 in the use of the pistol.
On multiple occasions, students using the SERPA missed the button and failed to present thier pistol in a timely fashion when shooting against others in man on man competition. I acknowledge that this is also an end user issue though what, IMHO, is a flawed design, certain can contibute to that issue.

More disturbingly, on at least two seperate occasions, students were unable to present their weapons immediately after they had been shooting from the prone and other unconventional/"jackass" positions. During both instances, small debris such as a pebble/dirt etc had managed to become jammed behind the release button, locking the gun into place. No combatives were being performed prior to the incident.

I have seen a video from a SouthNarc class in which this happened as well. Obviously, combatives were being performed at the time of the holster's "lock up". I have also seen video of snow "locking up" the release as well when the holster was manipulated in a pile of snow to simulate it being worn by the end user rolling around on thre ground prior to presenting the weapon.

I can tell you from first hand knowledge that a 1300+ person department in my metropolitan area is no long issuing the holster in favor of the Safarailand ALS given both the ND and lock "issues" discussed in this thread.

Though I am not your atty nor am I giving you legal advice, were I engaged as such by a trainer or school, I would advise against the use of the SERPA.
While in a typical ND situation, the end user may very well be primarily at fault (i.e. 80%). However, in many states' negligence schemes, the school /trainer could still be responsible for the remaining 20%. 20% of a 6 or 7 figure number for the death or permanent disability would be a life altering number for a school/trainer to take even with good insurance,especially if one could show the school/instuctor had notice of the issue and chose not to take any remedial action.

On its best day, the SERPA is a widely available holster of modest quality with ever wider growing record of lock up and ND issues.
Trainers who have at least your world experience and have been training longer than you have been alive are rejecting the holster platform.
Food for thought.

Be safe and well,
David Barnes

Mr. Barnes,

Thank you for the insight and I do appreciate the advice and experience. I am by no means stating that the SERPA is a good or the best design; I think the thumb drive and the ALS are better holsters. But my position is that out of the hundreds of thousands of people who do use the SERPA, I am effectively cutting my possible marketing down significantly by stating “the SERPA is banned, regardless how safe you may be with the holster, and regardless if the holster is (or is not) proved to be flawed in design”. Being a new business, I cannot afford to do that, and I also understand that the holster can in fact be used correctly and safely. I used it for 4 years in the Army during competitive shooting, deployment and instructing deploying soldiers.

I would not be opposed to stating that “if you use a SERPA you must also have an external slide safety”. I already give a detailed safety brief regarding the holster; I already make it clear that if a student fails to be safe they will be required to leave a course. But I am a bit uneasy about outright banning the holster, without some form of a document to state why I am actually banning the holster. If someone asked me “why” as of right now, all I can say is that a few LEA’s and other trainers have banned them for being unsafe, so I followed in there process. I don’t feel that would represent my business well or my personal beliefs and or how I would like to represent my company and or name.

I have no problem banning the holster, once I have documentation. I really do wish to reduce any possible future liabilities (and I do see where the SERPA can be a major liability). But I also need to do so without disrupting my business image, my marketing base and without irritating the many safe users of the SERPA. I have never recommended a SERPA and I will never do so, but banning them brings up too many issues for me to just do it based off of word of mouth. I need a memo, a lawsuit docket, something to post up on my website to say “we have banned the SERPA and this is why”.

Respectfully,

[Shellback]

It has become popular of late to bash Blackhawk’s SERPA holster as unsafe and while I understand the concern expressed, it simply is not true. The mishaps that have occurred with the SERPA are shooter error not a poor holster design. (http://www.downrange.tv/blog/instructor-skills-and-serpa-bashing/12426/) :rolleyes:

Author of article - Dave Spaulding is the 2010 Law Officer Trainer of the Year

[Sparks2112]

It has become popular of late to bash Blackhawk’s SERPA holster as unsafe and while I understand the concern expressed, it simply is not true. The mishaps that have occurred with the SERPA are shooter error not a poor holster design. (http://www.downrange.tv/blog/instructor-skills-and-serpa-bashing/12426/) :rolleyes:

Author of article - Dave Spaulding is the 2010 Law Officer Trainer of the Year

It's funny how someone that you respect and admire can lose almost all credibility you once gave them and their thoughts with one simple statement. :-(

[orionz06]

It has become popular of late to bash Blackhawk’s SERPA holster as unsafe and while I understand the concern expressed, it simply is not true. The mishaps that have occurred with the SERPA are shooter error not a poor holster design. (http://www.downrange.tv/blog/instructor-skills-and-serpa-bashing/12426/) :rolleyes:

Author of article - Dave Spaulding is the 2010 Law Officer Trainer of the Year

Yes, it is shooter error... they chose a SERPA to begin with.

[theblacknight]

LOL SERPA defenders are the best. It's like finding a Savage Garden CD in your buddy's truck and he tries to talk his way out of it.

[rsa-otc]

I like Dave and respect his knowledge. But as with most instructors I don't always agree with everything he has to say. This is one of those times. :(

[Sparks2112]

I like Dave and respect his knowledge. But as with most instructors I don't always agree with everything he has to say. This is one of those times. :(

I also don't like that on his web page he claims to be superior to all other firearm instructors...

[ToddG]

I've known Dave for years and respect him greatly. I don't agree with everything he thinks -- the SERPA issue being a good example -- but then I don't agree with everything Ken Hackathorn or Ernest Langdon think, either, and I'd consider them two of the most important (and continuing) influences on me as a shooter and instructor.

I will say this about Dave Spaulding: if you don't agree with him, unlike many in this industry he will ask you why and actually listen. He may not end up agreeing with you any more than you agreed with him, but he's neither dogmatic nor offended by those whose approach to things differ from his own.

[Sparks2112]

I've known Dave for years and respect him greatly. I don't agree with everything he thinks -- the SERPA issue being a good example -- but then I don't agree with everything Ken Hackathorn or Ernest Langdon think, either, and I'd consider them two of the most important (and continuing) influences on me as a shooter and instructor.

I will say this about Dave Spaulding: if you don't agree with him, unlike many in this industry he will ask you why and actually listen. He may not end up agreeing with you any more than you agreed with him, but he's neither dogmatic nor offended by those whose approach to things differ from his own.

And that's awesome. It just seems incredibly narrow sighted to not acknowledge the repeatable and observable flaws in the serpa design even when you don't look at the ND issue. Which btw we apparently had a local firearms trainer cap himself with a serpa not too long ago. I heard this directly from the director of the club where the incident occurred. I've met the gentleman in question and while I consider him to be a douche rocket of the highest order by all accounts he's an excellent shooter. So there's another ND at least partly caused by the Serpa.

[Tamara]

I can totally see where the "shooter error, not SERPA error" camp is coming from. What I don't get is the refusal to acknowledge that there might be a problem with a holster design that, by its very nature, makes the aforementioned shooter error more likely.

Conversely, the institutional defenders of the holster make more sense to me than the individual Joe Shooter who gets frothy over it. If Joe Shooter admits he made a bad purchasing decision, he's out $29.99 and a bit of ribbing from his buddies.

If Chief Wiggums does, on the other hand, the department may still be stuck with a few thousand dollars of bum holsters until a fiscal year or two down the road, plus he's exposed the department to a ton of liability. He's a lot more invested, like the guy who bought the Kimber Custom Combat Gold that chokes every other magazine, but who refuses to believe he's purchased a shitty gun, because who wants to admit to themselves that they just set a pile of money on fire?

[peterb]

"User error" vs. "design flaw" arguments are hardly new. One example that come to mind is the Beech Baron and Bonaza aircraft, which suffered a disproportionate number of landing-gear accidents. The pilot simply grabbed the wrong lever. Pilot error? Training problem? Yes on both counts, but the design made it more likely that those errors would occur.

Substitute "accidental discharges" for "retraction accidents", and it sounds awfully familiar....
-----------------------------------------------
A detailed review was made of all inadvertent landing gear retraction accidents
OCCIIrring from 1975 to 1978. The data indicated that Beech Bonanza and Baron-type aircraft,
while comprising only one quarter of the single-engine and light twin-engine fleets, were
involved in the majority of these accidents. Pilot comments and a human engineering
evaluation of contemporary light aircraft cockpits revealed that these two Beech aircraft had
four design features which would tend to increase the probability of inadvertent retraction
accidents. Inexpensive methods of correcting these problems are recommended

http://libraryonline.erau.edu/online-full-text/ntsb/special-investigation-reports/SIR80-01.pdf

[nwhpfan]

The first time I saw a Serpa holster was at least 4 years ago. They were dangerous then; and they are dangerous now. The Serpa was a sad idea to quell the fear of gun grabs :eek: If you think a holster will protect against a gun grab your a mistaken. If somebody wants your pistol they'll reef, rip, and twist that whatever plastic retention part isn't broken in that process; will have been passed with the rip, twist, and reef. Retaining your pistol is a skill as important as your draw; and if you don't practice it your not complete.

[JFK]

I don't quite get the "user error" argument. I can see that proper training is very important and that this is what the argument is based on. However is the design is such that any user error will introduce catastrophic consequence, to me that is a design flaw.

If my car exploded on impact and someone told me that I just need to be a better driver, I would probably assume that at some point user error can be introduced and choose a car that would not explode if I have a lapse in my perfection.

[LeeC]

Tamara -- If Joe Shooter admits he made a bad purchasing decision, he's out $29.99 and a bit of ribbing from his buddies.

I'm actually out more like $45 from the gun store. They had a reasonable price on the Glock 19 I bought and I wanted some kind of holster to go with it. Guess they mark up their holsters a bit more. I can't remember if the holster actually made it to the range more than once, if at all, before I decided that I didn't like the design. Then I found this thread and got a real education. Yikes!

But I found an interesting alternate use for the SERPA. If you put the paddle on it, it will slide into the shroud under the steering wheel column on most cars rather nicely. I got the idea from this holster. (http://www.nrastore.com/nrastore/ProductDetail.aspx?c=2817&p=SA+22685&ct=e) The only problem is that it reverses the draw hand. And of course, you still have to make sure you don't shoot yourself in the foot while manipulating the release on the draw. So, anybody have a left-hand SERPA they want to swap for a right-hand? :p

But seriously, I might actually use it this way if I felt I needed more ready access to my gun than having to dig it out from my waist or the center island. And it beats throwing it in the trash or giving it to someone else to get hurt with.

[ToddG]

A "car holster" has all the same flaws as any other off-body method of carry plus the obvious issues involved with both access and potential injury in the event of a vehicular collision.

If I need to exit my car quickly and my gun is in a "car holster" instead of on my person, what do I do? I can grab the gun, but then I've got a gun in my hand... and I may be in a place/situation where that would be a bad idea. Or I can bail out of the car and leave the gun behind, which is obviously a bad idea. Or I can stay in the car until I've had a chance to secure the gun on my person, which may be a bad idea or even impossible.

Or I could just choose a carry method that's comfortable when I drive, and always have the gun on me without having to think about it or screw around with it every time I'm in and out of the car.

[LeeC]

Or I could just choose a carry method that's comfortable when I drive, and always have the gun on me without having to think about it or screw around with it every time I'm in and out of the car.

Sounds like another advantage of AIWB over 3-o'clock OWB carry for right-handed folks. BTW, I'm perfecting my slow-motion reholster technique.

I have a special requirement on the three days that I drive into the office, as I can't carry in the Federal building where I work. I've been told by the security officers that the jurisdiction and enforcement for my parking structure is a "gray area" (technically not Federal property, so if we don't see it, there is no problem). So, in order to avoid unholstering my pistol under the scrutiny of the security cameras in the parking deck, I unholster and stow the pistol before leaving the house. While it is not as ideal as having the gun on me, it is better than leaving it at home. I can't use the SERPA in this case anyway because it would leave it in plain sight or require handling in the wrong place.

But your points are valid and appreciated, so my SERPA is headed for the trash can.

Thanks,

Lee

[HeadHunter]

But your points are valid and appreciated, so my SERPA is headed for the trash can.

I am sure it has economic value to someone, if not functional value.

[BillP]

Unfortunately my employer has selected the Serpa Level 3 light bearing system as the approved duty holster for pistol-mounted lights. It's also the mandatory issue for certain units internally. Serpa Level 2 is the agency approved holster for plain clothes personnel but there is more wiggle room there.

I use a Serpa Level daily.

[ToddG]

I use a Serpa Level daily.

Sorry, Bill. We can still be friends...

[will_1400]

From what I saw today, it looks like AF Security Forces are using SERPAs as well...

[seabiscuit]

Haven't seen them at USAFA yet...

[Mike Honcho]

From what I saw today, it looks like AF Security Forces are using SERPAs as well...

They're not supposed to be. The Safariland SLS is the only authorized holster for AFSF. I've seen units buy SERPAs before based on the supposed cool factor or whatever misguided criteria people inevitably use when selecting this holster.

I've heard for the past couple of years there were rumbles about switching to the SERPA, which (along with many other reasons) makes me infinitely glad I'm no longer subject to the massive clusterfuck that is the USAF Security Forces.

[BillP]

Sorry, Bill. We can still be friends...

Phew. I can now sleep well at night. :)
I wanted to highlight that regardless of the why and how, some of us don't have a say in what we use...or I'd be rocking an ALS holster with an X300.

[ToddG]

I wanted to highlight that regardless of the why and how, some of us don't have a say in what we use...or I'd be rocking an ALS holster with an X300.

My plan is to make an exception for sworn government/military personnel using issued Serpa holsters. "This is what I bought to wear on duty" doesn't cut it. But if you don't get a choice, I'm not going to kick you out of class because your FIs or administrators are dodos.

[will_1400]

They're not supposed to be. The Safariland SLS is the only authorized holster for AFSF. I've seen units buy SERPAs before based on the supposed cool factor or whatever misguided criteria people inevitably use when selecting this holster.

I've heard for the past couple of years there were rumbles about switching to the SERPA, which (along with many other reasons) makes me infinitely glad I'm no longer subject to the massive clusterfuck that is the USAF Security Forces.

To be fair, I see most of them carrying Safarilands, although some are also using some nylon rig I don't recognize. The SERPA didn't look like he'd been on the job for long, but... yeah...

[JV_]

I'm trying to create a list of schools and agencies that don't allow SERPA holsters.


Front Sight banned the SERPA.
http://www.frontsight.com/FirearmTraining/front-sight.asp?Letter=I

We do not allow the Blackhawk Serpa holster or holsters of similar construction with a retention device in the trigger guard

[nar472]

Looks like Kyle Defoor has some very choice words for the serpa:D

http://www.kyledefoor.com/2012/02/no-more-serpa-holsters-in-my-classes.html

[F-Trooper05]

Front Sight banned the SERPA.
http://www.frontsight.com/FirearmTraining/front-sight.asp?Letter=I

Wow, I would have thought that joke of a school would be all about the SERPA.

[nar472]

I came across this by accident searching for something else this morning thought it applied to this thread, so pardon me for my ignorance but what is wrong with Kyle Defoor ?

[Shellback]

so pardon me for my ignorance but what is wrong with Kyle Defoor ?

I'm not exactly sure what you're asking, you'll have to be more specific.

[nar472]

F trooper mentioned"joke of a school"
So I assume that he is not well thought of around here, and because there are several guys that I really respect and have learned alot from on pf.com
Why would he not be recommended?
is his training technique flawed?
is he just a bad trainer overall?
Are the just alot of better choices for the money?

[jmjames]

He was referring to Front Sight, not Kyle Defoor.

J.Ja

[Shellback]

F trooper mentioned"joke of a school"
So I assume that he is not well thought of around here, and because there are several guys that I really respect and have learned alot from on pf.com
Why would he not be recommended?
is his training technique flawed?
is he just a bad trainer overall?
Are the just alot of better choices for the money?


He was referring to Front Sight, not Kyle Defoor.

J.Ja

J beat me to it.

[nar472]

Oops now I feel stupid:rolleyes:

[Al T.]

For those forced to use the Serpa, Paul Gomez has an interesting video:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBuAFxqsllE&context=C38abfa4ADOEgsToPDskJelyLykpAGuQb2IMhumv7X

[DocGKR]

http://www.wilsontacticaltraining.com/?p=326

[HCM]

On February 7, 2012, Blackhawk issued a recall on light-bearing SERPA duty holsters. Details here: http://kiesler.com/portals/0/pdf/SerpaSafetyNotice_Feb_7.pdf

Can anyone confirm if the SERPA is the light bearing holster that was ripped off of an Ithaca police officer's belt in August 2011, resulting in a wounded officer and dead bad guy ?

http://www.cnycentral.com/news/story.aspx?id=656202

From the news story:

"According to a news release, a uniformed Ithaca police officer was parked in a patrol car in the gas station parking lot when he was "violently attacked" by a 20-year-old man. During the attack, "the suspect tore the Officer's duty weapon from his duty belt... and a round was discharged grazing the Officer's leg."

State Police say a second officer arrived on the scene and shot the suspect after ordering him to drop the gun. The suspect was transported to a hospital in Sayre, Pennsylvania. He later died."

[abu fitna]

http://www.wilsontacticaltraining.com/?p=326

This seemed promising, and exactly the kind of evidence based protocol that would resolve the question. However, the lack of experimentation internals here is somewhat troubling.

Ultimately this is a protocol I would like to see replicated, preferable with video track, and solid demographics for shooters and backgrounds. Importantly, I'd like track on transition between different holster types as a contributing factor possibility to ad/nd outcomes. Ideally also we would have a controlled group of new users, transition users, and routine users.

This is not a trivial test scenario. But one would think that it is in Blackhawk's interest, or at least the interest of a sponsoring agency, to document the actual conditions for a piece of issued gear. If nothing else, providing hard evidence to document issues or defeat rumours would seem to be indicated at this point.

An independent test would be best, but a well documented manufacturer or competitors test would be acceptable, more so if coupled with video and / or motion capture.

For disclosure, I say this having carried the serpa shortly after introduction for nearly a year in theatre, plus two hard use schools in the same timeframe - for three weapons from two manufacturers.

[Shellback]

Progressive FORCE has banned the Serpa in their training classes. They sent this (https://docs.google.com/open?id=1n_50QEC6bkg-ZbkjKncenfbISWbsdL21ofiNZFryfIuiHCIkbZGNsadiMzr4) out to all their students.

[theblacknight]

So has anyone actually made a simple list of places that outright bans/have a probationary policy on the SERPA? If not,when back conus I will. The same people here lifeing Marines for slinging rifles slightly to the side (ON THE FOB,Condition 3) and the same people who either have a airsoft level nylon holster,or serpa, and have prob never once in thier career drew a pistol from on the clock during training. Alsothe unit's gunner Im with wears a serpa, Son, Im disapoint.

[Wendell]

Another Serpa-report from the field: http://mp-pistol.com/boards/index.php?/topic/30715-serpa-holsters-high-risk/page__view__findpost__p__312315

[TGS]

Another Serpa-report from the field: http://mp-pistol.com/boards/index.php?/topic/30715-serpa-holsters-high-risk/page__view__findpost__p__312315

Check out the 2nd post in that thread. lol.

FWIW, a buddy I have in the CBP has also had his SERPA fall apart twice while getting out of his truck.

[HeadHunter]

Another Serpa-report from the field: http://mp-pistol.com/boards/index.php?/topic/30715-serpa-holsters-high-risk/page__view__findpost__p__312315

Microphone cord fail. That's right up there with "I ambushed you with a cup of coffee."

[Shellback]

Microphone cord fail. That's right up there with "I ambushed you with a cup of coffee."

The TSA agent must've been reading your mind. (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2124997/TSA-screener-JFK-hurled-hot-coffee-American-Airlines-pilot-told-stop-swearing.html)

[jetfire]

The TSA agent must've been reading your mind. (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2124997/TSA-screener-JFK-hurled-hot-coffee-American-Airlines-pilot-told-stop-swearing.html)

I think I'll deny her entry into the Order of Defensive Coffee Throwers (ODCT).

[John Hearne]

I received an e-mail today that my agency, the National Park Service, is officially banning the Serpa as an approved holster. The e-mail cites the holster's design vulnerability to sever weather conditions - I'm thinking jamming in the snow.

[ToddG]

Good for NPS!

[HCM]

As Charleton Heston said in Planet of the Apes - "We finally really did it !"

Received this back on 04/18/12 -

"Effective immediately, The Federal Law Enforcement Training Center (FLETC) has banned the use of ALL Index Finger Activated Holsters. This applies to staff and students alike. With that, all Academy Staff MUST cease utilizing this holster type on all FLETC ranges. Additionally, all instructors are to ensure that no students utilize this type of holster during any training conducted at FLETC.

THIS INCLUDES ALL STAFF QUALIFICATIONS BEGINNING TODAY"

[orionz06]

Oh, hey, look here...

http://readingeagle.com/article.aspx?id=413291



New details emerged Tuesday about the accidental shooting of a Berks County deputy sheriff on the 17th floor of the Berks County Courthouse a day earlier.

Deputy John Parsons was shot in the leg with his own service pistol Monday morning in an incident involving another deputy, whose name has not been released.

Sheriff Eric J. Weaknecht said Tuesday that the accident occurred after Parsons and the second deputy - like Parsons a firearms instructor and member of the fugitive task force - received an alert from the U.S. Marshal Service about the holsters used by members of the task force.

According to the alert, the Blackhawk LV3 tactical holster has a possible defect that can cause a pistol to discharge.

Following the department's 9:30 a.m. roll call, the sheriff said, Parsons and the other deputy decided to test the holsters.

They unloaded their pistols but were unable to duplicate the accidental trigger pull.

Preparing to go to work, Parsons reloaded his pistol but the second deputy did not realize that, Weaknecht said.

"Within a few minutes," the sheriff said, "the other deputy said he figured it out and reached for Parson's gun and it went off.

"It was one of those things that happened so quickly that it was just an accident."

After the shooting, Deputy Michael Moorman rushed in to dress the wound and control the bleeding, Weaknecht said.

Despite his injury, Parsons was able to assist.

"They both stayed calm and composed and they did a great job with that," Weaknecht said.

Parsons was rushed into surgery in Reading Hospital.

His wife was notified and was by his side throughout the treatment.

Parsons remained in Reading Hospital on Tuesday night but was expected to be released today, Weaknecht said, adding that he visited Parsons in the hospital Monday evening and found him in very good spirits.

While Weaknecht declined to identify the other deputy involved, he said he faces possible disciplinary action and had been placed on desk duty until the department's firearms review board holds a hearing on the shooting.

That should happen in the next few weeks.

In the meantime, the deputy was having a difficult time dealing with the accident, Weaknecht said.

Weaknecht said both deputies were offered counseling and assistance from the union trauma support team.

City police were called in to investigate the shooting and determined that it was an accident, according to Chief William M. Heim.

The holsters are no longer being used and deputies have been briefed on what happened, Weaknecht said.

Contact Jason A. Kahl: 610-371-5024 or jkahl@readingeagle.com.

[Dagga Boy]

We will not be allowing them at HiTS unless the student is issued or mandated to carry them. Even the rookie new guys get it...:cool:

[NOLA_Jack]

Advantage group/unity tactical isn't allowing them at all.

http://www.bayoushooter.com/forums/showthread.php?86732-Advantage-Group-Gunfighter-I-and-Carbine-I-(Aug-25-26-Robert-LA)

[Mr Pink]

I'm on the IALEFI email list and received the same article posted above:
http://readingeagle.com/article.aspx?id=413291

There's enough NDs going on around the world and anything that gets this much attention needs to discontinued.

Besides people shooting themselves there's the issue of the pistol getting stuck inside the holster. I had a soldier go prone and when he got up he could NOT get his pistol out because a small stone got stuck behind the retention button.

[Wendell]

On Dec. 18, the Army awarded a $49 million contract to Military Hardware, LLC for G-Code holsters and $24.3 million contract to ADS Inc. for Serpa holsters.
The SERPA line has seen mixed reviews over the years. The Marine Corps held a similar effort two years ago and adopted the Blackhawk SERPA.

http://kitup.military.com/2013/12/army-adopts-code-serpa-models.html#ixzz2pFcT9OUY

[LittleLebowski]

On Dec. 18, the Army awarded a $49 million contract to Military Hardware, LLC for G-Code holsters and $24.3 million contract to ADS Inc. for Serpa holsters.
The SERPA line has seen mixed reviews over the years. The Marine Corps held a similar effort two years ago and adopted the Blackhawk SERPA.

http://kitup.military.com/2013/12/army-adopts-code-serpa-models.html#ixzz2pFcT9OUY


FML.

[Sparks2112]

FML.

Wonder how long until SERPA leg makes the weekend safety brief...

[LittleLebowski]

Wonder how long until SERPA leg makes the weekend safety brief...

I recently took off on some OC silliness (http://rationalgun.blogspot.com/2013/12/and-they-say-open-carry-people-are.html) and the "SERPAs are military issue" thing was already cited......Again, FML.

[JodyH]

I'm at the point now that I just nod, smile and try to be where the ND won't hit me.
I'm done trying to educate the masses, the masses are willfully stupid and life's too short for me to stress over them.
I'll help someone who comes to me with an open mind, but I'm done with the Serpa/Taurus crowd.

Can you tell dealing with the new crop of club club applicants is getting to me?

[ToddG]

It never ceases to amaze me how many people will criticize the M4 and M9 one minute and then "brag" about the SERPA being .mil issue the next. Is the .mil the gold standard of product selection or not?

[LittleLebowski]

As far as "military issue" goes, talk to one survivor of the original MOLLE issue.......

[JMS]

Is the .mil the gold standard of product selection or not?

It is...right up to the point that you have a chance to see/conduct a source-selection, and see some of the awesomeness the military passes up in lieu of a steaming bucket of yuck because some aspect of the procurement was poorly pencil-whipped. If the wrong empire-builder/quota-baby is in the wrong spot, stuff like SERPA procurement happens.

Just as a for-example, look at something as simple as the Army's issue fleece beanie vs. the Corps' fleece beanie.

The former is grossly oversized, floppy, badly stitched, might as well be made of macreme for all the wind it keeps out,....and GREY; bad procurement. People or persons at PEO Soldier whose billet description included "giving no f**ks."

The latter is made to properly fit under a helmet without getting wadded up and creating hotspots, is well-made, decent at blocking wind when worn as a stand-alone....and NOT FREAKIN GREY; good procurement. PM ICE has (or had at the time) a lot of former trigger-pullers working for them.

To wit: A lot of what the military buys both is and is not crap. It's possible for both conditions to exist at the same time, strictly on the basis of how different people being in charge of similar efforts can dramaticaly alter the comparative results.

.....he said, preaching to the choir. :D

[LittleLebowski]

It is...right up to the point that you have a chance to see/conduct a source-selection, and see some of the awesomeness the military passes up in lieu of a steaming bucket of yuck because some aspect of the procurement was poorly pencil-whipped. If the wrong empire-builder/quota-baby is in the wrong spot, stuff like SERPA procurement happens.

Just as a for-example, look at something as simple as the Army's issue fleece beanie vs. the Corps' fleece beanie.

The former is grossly oversized, floppy, badly stitched, might as well be made of macreme for all the wind it keeps out,....and GREY; bad procurement. People or persons at PEO Soldier whose billet description included "giving no f**ks."

The latter is made to properly fit under a helmet without getting wadded up and creating hotspots, is well-made, decent at blocking wind when worn as a stand-alone....and NOT FREAKIN GREY; good procurement. PM ICE has (or had at the time) a lot of former trigger-pullers working for them.

To wit: A lot of what the military buys both is and is not crap. It's possible for both conditions to exist at the same time, strictly on the basis of how different people being in charge of similar efforts can dramaticaly alter the comparative results.

.....he said, preaching to the choir. :D

Ooh, ooh! Do your routine about MARPAT versus "Universal" camouflage! Or maybe the one about the LAV/Bradley/Stryker story. Barrels of laughs!

[SeriousStudent]

Ooh, ooh! Do your routine about MARPAT versus "Universal" camouflage! Or maybe the one about the LAV/Bradley/Stryker story. Barrels of laughs!

*ding* And the popcorn is now out of the microwave, and lightly salted.

Proceed.

[trailrunner]

Is the .mil the gold standard of product selection or not?

Is UCP the gold standard of camo?

[trailrunner]

It never ceases to amaze me how many people will criticize the M4 and M9 one minute and then "brag" about the SERPA being .mil issue the next. Is the .mil the gold standard of product selection or not?

Forgot to say: Watch the movie "The Pentagon Wars." It's not a parody: it really is that messed up.

[dpesec]

Paper cuts thousands of papercuts. Shame the poor light col. took it up the butt.
I have one but never use it. I had a case where it wouldn't draw, never found out why. That was the last time i used it.

Sent from my SM-T217S using Tapatalk

[JMS]

Do your routine...

That's not MY routine....

That's AMERICA'S routine. *flag*

[JMS]

I had a case where it wouldn't draw, never found out why.

$5 gets you $10 that there was a hunk of something, or a build up of somethings under the retention release; enough LINT will do it, snow, silty-sticky Euphrates River mud.... Seen it happen more than once, including one time in particular...

I had a single thin sliver of gravel, about half the size of my pinky-fingernail, hang up the release on mine in 2006. Discovered it was at the worst possible moment; carbine went TU, I needed that pistol NOW, but it was all Excalibur-in-the-stone. Thankfully, I had a fire team for an entourage....

[jlw]

Remember, the U.S. Army was reluctant to adopt repeating rifles...

[LittleLebowski]

Forgot to say: Watch the movie "The Pentagon Wars." It's not a parody: it really is that messed up.

Yup.

[Drang]

Remember, the U.S. Army was reluctant to adopt repeating rifles...

Almost ALL armies were reluctant to adopt repeating firearms.
Once adopted, they pretty much all had magazine cutoffs for the first two or three generations.
The French had what was effectively a machine gun, but it was so highly classified there was ONE NCO in the entire country qualified to train anyone, and the Prussians had kicked their butts before he could even teach anyone to spell "mitrailleuse." *
Not to beat the French up too obsessively, did their version of the Chauchat work any better than ours, and why did the US military insist on buying the smurfed up piece of kitten?
And let us not forget that the USMC insisted on saddling it's men with the Reising submachine gun.
Once semi-autos were in place, they refused to consider full-auto capability, or implemented it in platforms that were unsuited to it. (Were the Brits right or wrong to make the SLR semi-only?)
Anyway, buying sub-optimal weapons and other equipment is hardly the sole province of the US Army, especially in a representative democracy...


*After pausing to admire myself for spelling "mitrailleuse" correctly without looking it up first--no clue how I managed it--I will inject that I read that bit about "one NCO in the country" years ago, have no idea where, and no idea how accurate it is.

[Chuck Haggard]

$5 gets you $10 that there was a hunk of something, or a build up of somethings under the retention release; enough LINT will do it, snow, silty-sticky Euphrates River mud.... Seen it happen more than once, including one time in particular...

I had a single thin sliver of gravel, about half the size of my pinky-fingernail, hang up the release on mine in 2006. Discovered it was at the worst possible moment; carbine went TU, I needed that pistol NOW, but it was all Excalibur-in-the-stone. Thankfully, I had a fire team for an entourage....


And hence one big reason why I would never carry one again myself. I saw one so jammed up we had to use EMP shears and a big knife to cut it off of the gun, could have used a set of tin snips right about then.

There are other glaring problems outside of the trigger finger issue, but easily jammed holster being pimped for hard use in austere environments is a biggy.

[Don Gwinn]

Hokay.
I just read 16 pages of this thread in two sittings, and I think I get it. Serpa bad. Not wear Serpa. You have reached me.

The weird thing is that I don't really have much use for a retention holster; I just about never open carry, maybe once every couple of years or so in other states. All my recent training has been with tuckable IWB hybrids anyway. I've used two Serpas as range holsters since that Blackwater/Blackhawk/Para Ord thing Tamara mentioned, mostly because that's what I had on hand. I liked the idea of added security at the time (I had only carried a pistol in a holster once before I went on that Blackwater junket, and done one USPSA stage the week before. I was a little bit new) but I likely won't replace the Serpas with anything but simple paddle holsters using tension for retension.

Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk HD

[KevinB]

With the USMC - ADS bid both Safariland and the SERPA, the SERPA was the low bid as I understand.
The fact the USMC and now the Army wrote a requirement that allows such a MISERABLE PIECE OF CRAP to me is worth a GAO Audit...

[BLR]

With the USMC - ADS bid both Safariland and the SERPA, the SERPA was the low bid as I understand.
The fact the USMC and now the Army wrote a requirement that allows such a MISERABLE PIECE OF CRAP to me is worth a GAO Audit...

I wonder why the design issue hasn't been addressed.

[Chuck Haggard]

I wonder why the design issue hasn't been addressed.


Because people who know it's a POS aren't in the buying stuff system I would guess.

[ToddG]

I wonder why the design issue hasn't been addressed.

Because it's easier to deny a problem exists than worry about whether someone might die as a result of it and actually have to fix it.

[JodyH]

That POS SERPA is approved for USBP use as well.
I've seen several of them lock down at our 3-gun matches.
So far the guys running them (mostly FLETC instructors) have abandoned them for Safarilands so maybe there'll be some "monkey see, monkey do" coming out of FLETC in the future and fewer SERPAS on duty with USBP in the desert southwest.

[McNamara]

I have signed for a kitten ton of these Serpas, some of them broken. I don't trust them, both for their materials and their design.

Full disclosure, I actually bought one with my own money a few years back, even after I knew they were crap. It was only for an OWB two-gun match holster for my 1911. I think I used it two or three times until I was able to find a Safariland ALS to replace it. But I never accepted one for my M9 or Glock usage downrange.

It makes complete sense why the Army accepts these for issue, even among SOF units. The people who make the purchasing decisions don't exactly research these products; but worse, I've even met quite a few experienced folks who still think this is an acceptable holster, my former team sergeant for one. Hard to tell guys like that they're wrong when he's got more time deployed than you. I try to cite the sources I know, and hopefully I've changed a few minds. The sad thing is that sometimes the Serpa looks like the best option compared to the other crap holsters the unit has purchased. Some folks don't like to buy their own gear.

I was happy to donate a Safariland 6004 holster to a guy as I left theater the last time, just so he didn't have to use a Serpa.

[SGT_Calle]

Some folks don't like to buy their own gear.

Very valid point!
I am a horrible example of this as I was so far from the "tip of the spear" as to be in another time zone, but I bought a sling for my M4 that was more comfortable when I lugged it around everywhere on the big base. I've recently joined LF and am amazed at the kit that those guys buy for themselves.
I was happy to see G-code on that announcement but seeing the SERPA was saddening.

[Don Gwinn]

Took the first 8 hours of IL CCW training yesterday. Instructor is retired from the local bigger-town PD tactical team, long experience, remembers starting out on patrol with .38 revolvers in floppy holsters with straps that wouldn't retain the gun if you ran.
He used a Serpa for the entire class with Blackhawk orange guns, but mentioned that he thought it might be a Ky-Tac for some reason. I probably should have asked him his thoughts on it, but I didn't.

Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk HD

[ToddG]

He used a Serpa for the entire class with Blackhawk orange guns, but mentioned that he thought it might be a Ky-Tac for some reason.

Just for clarification: your instructor thought his SERPA was a Ky-Tac?

[Casual Friday]

Took the first 8 hours of IL CCW training yesterday.

Congratulations! As far as the instructor not knowing his brand of holster, holy crap, is Illinois really that hard pressed for competent instructors?

[GardoneVT]

Wouldnt the video of a SERPA user (Tex Grebner) shooting himself on camera lay the argument to rest?

(Full Disclosure:I had a SERPA back when I was starting out with concealed carry.Since I was kitting up in response to a threat risk brought on by my poor choice in women ,I bought the gear without actually researching the matter.After twenty minutes dry practicing draws with my SR9 and firing the striker on half of them, the holster went on the shelf.)

[LorenzoS]

Wouldnt the video of a SERPA user (Tex Grebner) shooting himself on camera lay the argument to rest?

Dunning–Kruger effect is strong, and many people with a little bit of training honestly believe they are too skilled to make a stupid mistake.

[JFK]

Just for clarification: your instructor thought his SERPA was a Ky-Tac?

Why bother with details....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vr7N6UvbgsA

[TR675]

Wouldnt the video of a SERPA user (Tex Grebner) shooting himself on camera lay the argument to rest?

Not to my mind. It Is a serious warning sign, but if nobody else ever had a problem...one screw-up does not mean that a product is bad.

Grebner is a great example of what can go wrong, but for me what laid it to rest were the sheer number of anecdotal incidents like Grebner's, seeing multiple videos of locked up and destroyed holsters and experimenting with one which I'd bought before all the hoopla.

The problem with Serpa defenders is that they discount Grebner's incident as "poor training" while discounting the by-now legion of other data points that pretty conclusively prove that the Serpa is dangerous, delicate and unreliable. But discounting evidence contrary to one's previously arrived at conclusion is extremely normal human behavior...

[Chuck Haggard]

Completely discounting the trigger finger issue, the actual quality and design of the product makes it unsuitable for serious use in my experience. Too many people likely only use a Serpa in rather sterile environments and never get a clue.

I started out liking the system. A friend who is also one of my training gurus was heavily involved in design and early use of the Serpa. In some venues, like ground fighting in the mat room, we found that the Serpa was far less likely to lose the gun all by itself when other quality holsters like the Safariland 6280 types would often dump the gun while rolling.

I have actually used the system, hard, daily, for about three years, so unlike a lot of the "Serpa sucks" crowd I am speaking from a pretty good depth of experience.

Issues;

Durability- the Serpa does not stand up to serious gun grabs in training, no reason to think it will do better in a real attack. I have seen Serpas break off of the belt loop or paddle just from people sitting down and catching the butt of the pistol on the back of a chair.

Retention- without the Serpa lock the holster has none. The issue is that the spring that runs the Serpa lock can not be inspected, it can not be serviced, and when it breaks you have a holster that is a rattley gun bucket with zero retention from even mild physical activity.

I have had three of these springs break on me due to daily use of the holster, two on the "concealment" version and one of the level 2 duty holster.

There is no fix, it breaks without warning, and if it breaks while, I dunno, you are out on the street at 0300hrs working a burglary in-progress call, then you have zero retention on your duty gun until you can get back to the station or home and put a new holster on your belt. Don't try this at home, it sucks.

Holster jams/debris issue- these are legion. There are so many cases of this happening with the Serpa in venues ranging from sand to dirt to snow that I believe it is criminal negligence for the Serpa system to be issued to troops.
Yeah, a 6280 can also jam with sand, but it is far less likely to do so, and it if does I don't need tin snips and a friend in order to get my gun out. I can do a quick slice with my cool guy knife and my pistol is out.


Then there is the issue of the trigger finger activation of the release. Even squared away guys who have all of their crap in one bag, like Todd Jarrett, often miss the Serpa lock on the draw and have to double pump the gun to get it out of the holster. Todd can do this really fast, but it still happens. You can find it on video if you look. I found after two-three years of work I was never able to hit the Serpa 100% of the time.

I have not seen any live fire AD/NDs with a Serpa, but I have seen two cases during FoF where guys plinked themselves with either a Sim gun or airsoft. With marking rounds that is just funny, live rounds not so much.

[TR675]

Really good post, Chuck.

[GardoneVT]

Really good post, Chuck.

Indeed.

During my one dry session with the SERPA, the times I popped the striker were when I didn't get a precisely good grip on the gun.Thus, I'd grab the weapon, hit the button...and nothing.I'd be standing there with a gun locked against the detent ,trigger finger desperately pushing the button to unlock the holster. Suddenly the gun would release, and since it's against the detent the weapon went flying out of the holster and my finger would go into the trigger out of sheer inertia .

Boom.
Or in my case, a benign "click".


As long as indexed my hand EXACTLY against the weapon and holster , the holster worked fine and my trigger finger was on the frame like it should.It was when the draw wasn't textbook perfect that it all fell apart, which is why I ditched it.If you're unlucky enough to have to shoot someone, you're unlucky enough to be denied a perfect draw.

[Don Gwinn]

Todd, that is what he said. Not his personal carry holster, but used to demonstrate with models.

To be real honest, I know the name Ky-Tac and not much else about them that Isn't years out of date, so I wondered if I was assuming too much--it sounded silly, but not totally impossible, that Ky-Tac could have licensed Blackhawk' s retention system or vice versa.

You have to understand, all this "holster" business is pretty new development around here. ;)

Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk HD

[ToddG]

Don -- Thanks. Not quite as bad as someone who doesn't know what holster he uses every day, but sort of challenging to help students choose a holster if you don't know what you're showing them.

Chuck -- Absolutely awesome post. Mind if I repost it to my blog? With full credit along with your personal cell phone number so all the SERPA True Believers can call and 'splain things to you.

[Don Gwinn]

Chuck, that user in a sterile environment is me. I used two Serpas for USPSA and dry fire/draws, and nothing else. I never experienced the finger-on-trigger issue and thought that others must be drawing very differently (I Don't think I ever used anything but an almost exaggerated-straight finger on the paddle, and I never had the thing refuse to give me my pistol, so no yanking.)

I saw the Tex Grebner video when it went viral, but not on a gun forum, and never saw the full video with his analysis until a couple of days ago after an offhand comment on Facebook sent me Googling. Didn t even know there was a Serpa involved.

I did hear about problems with frozen lockups caused by dirt, etc., but ignored it because I wash' t using the Serpa to carry anywhere but an indoor range anyway. Again, I realized that was unusual, but figured I was different if only because I was using it so much differently than most users.

However, it's all too much. Honestly, I'm still not concerned about anything but the possibility of an ND, and I still think that's unlikely, but it's hard to justify taking the chance when I can just buy a different holster and have one less thing to worry about.

Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk HD

[SouthNarc]

I don't get why the lockup issue is still debated.

Nine years ago in Phoenix:

http://www.federaltimes.com/VideoNetwork/1155868233001/SouthNarc-SERPA-Lockup

[Slavex]

I've had a lot of discussion with fellow shooters and students at my range about the Serpa holster. For the guys who are just range shooters (99.999% of Canadian shooters fall into this category outside of LEO/MIL) I just don't understand why they want a holster with retention, it is never ever going to be needed. If you're worried about running around in a sport, well, you draw before you move, but if you're really concerned you just tighten the retention screws down. On my new LHS and my old Bladetech DOH I could do all the tactical rolls and jumps and turns and the gun wouldn't come out, it was a bit harder to draw if I tightened it that much, but it worked just fine. Of course I never ran it that way at a match, but it was an interesting thing to demo to people. For the other 0.00001% there are numerous other retention holsters out there that will fit the bill, my favorite is the ALS, if you don't know the thumb release is there, you'll never find it. Unlike the Serpa with the great big "look at me" button on the side.

[Chuck Haggard]

For a field holster I actually like a retention device.

I suppose that in a really flat or open area it might not matter, like hunting in western KS, however anywhere I might have to take a spill I want the gun to stay put even if the butt/grip catches on something. I have been in outdoor situations where I have slide down slopes, etc. where losing the gun from the holster was a real possibility and recovering it would have been nearly impossible.

The ALS is a good choice for such work, especially under a coat, so is a traditional pancake type holster with a thumb break.



Todd; repost as you see fit, however if you give out my cell phone number I will drive to wherever you are at that moment and come after you like a very angry Kato

[HCM]

That POS SERPA is approved for USBP use as well.
I've seen several of them lock down at our 3-gun matches.
So far the guys running them (mostly FLETC instructors) have abandoned them for Safarilands so maybe there'll be some "monkey see, monkey do" coming out of FLETC in the future and fewer SERPAS on duty with USBP in the desert southwest.

Spot on. Why so many Fed LEO's with SERPAs? 1) Most Fed LEO's are not gun people. Most trainees think if they sell it at the FLETC store or "hooah" shop outside the gate it must be good right ? 2) The only thing cheaper than a cop is two cops ......

We wrote a proposal to buy Safariland ALS holsters in 2008 ... and actually started to see them in 2012!

[ToddG]

Todd; repost as you see fit, however if you give out my cell phone number I will drive to wherever you are at that moment and come after you like a very angry Kato

Fine, fine, fine. I'll just give out your Chief's phone number instead and maybe your home address. If that makes you happy, I'm happy.

:cool:

[jlw]

Todd; repost as you see fit, however if you give out my cell phone number I will drive to wherever you are at that moment and come after you like a very angry Kato


Todd,

You've been warned...

[ToddG]

You've been warned...

That's so wrong. :cool:

OK, my fault for the thread drift... back to SERPA discussion please.

[Chuck Haggard]

Well, that was quick.

[Josh Runkle]

$5 gets you $10 that there was a hunk of something, or a build up of somethings under the retention release; enough LINT will do it, snow, silty-sticky Euphrates River mud.... Seen it happen more than once, including one time in particular...

I had a single thin sliver of gravel, about half the size of my pinky-fingernail, hang up the release on mine in 2006. Discovered it was at the worst possible moment; carbine went TU, I needed that pistol NOW, but it was all Excalibur-in-the-stone. Thankfully, I had a fire team for an entourage....

Sounds like you owe someone a punch in the face.

[Chuck Haggard]

I don't get why the lockup issue is still debated.

Nine years ago in Phoenix:

http://www.federaltimes.com/VideoNetwork/1155868233001/SouthNarc-SERPA-Lockup


That stripping off of the belt loop or paddle as shown in the video is exactly what I was referring to. I have seen this happen in weapon retention training, and I have seen if just from a big dude sitting down in a chair and catching the butt of the pistol on the slats of the chair.

[Don Gwinn]

On my new LHS and my old Bladetech DOH I could do all the tactical rolls and jumps and turns and the gun wouldn't come out, it was a bit harder to draw if I tightened it that much, but it worked just fine. Of course I never ran it that way at a match, but it was an interesting thing to demo to people.
You don't know what you don't know until you know . . . you know? You *taught* those people who watched you demo how the retention worked. But not everybody gets taught.

I remember going to that Blackwater/Para/Blackhawk event Tamara was talking about. I had never carried a handgun in a holster except a couple of days with a P220 snapped into a Galco IWB a friend gave me, seven years prior, and running one USPSA match (one stage, really) with a FOBUS paddle holster I'd purchased for the same gun on a whim. The FOBUS seemed like the wave of the future, but I was extremely self-conscious wearing it, and simultaneously annoyed at how hard it could be to draw from it (that thing would yank my belt a few inches higher before it gave up that SIG) and nervous that a loaded handgun was just sitting there where anything could happen to it.

As I put the Para in that plain CQC with one retention screw today, it feels surprisingly firm and solid. Surprising because, back then, when they showed us both holsters, it felt loose compared to the FOBUS and the idea of a mechanical retention device that seemed completely transparent, requiring no change to the draw, seemed like magic. Obviously the holster hasn't tightened up any; it's only my perception that has changed over the last six years.

You can't start out knowing how much you don't know.

[psalms144.1]

Spot on. Why so many Fed LEO's with SERPAs? 1) Most Fed LEO's are not gun people. Most trainees think if they sell it at the FLETC store or "hooah" shop outside the gate it must be good right ? 2) The only thing cheaper than a cop is two cops ......

We wrote a proposal to buy Safariland ALS holsters in 2008 ... and actually started to see them in 2012!No, so many fed LEOs with SERPAs for the same reason that most .mil types - including .socom.mil types - are carrying SERPAs - because that's what the supply system gives them. SERPA is standard issue for CBP, IIRC, and, for a lot of "uniformed" LE - you carry what they gives you, or else.

[Chuck Whitlock]

The SERPA is banned on FLETC ranges. CBP is grudgingly excepted, because they said, "Fine, YOU pay to replace all our holsters." CBP has their own firearm instructor cadre at Artesia, anyway, so......

[JodyH]

CBP has their own firearm instructor cadre at Artesia, anyway, so......
Who I relentlessly badger about how big a POS the SERPA is every time I see them (which is at least monthly).

[Chuck Whitlock]

Who I relentlessly badger about how big a POS the SERPA is every time I see them (which is at least monthly).

Things that make me smile.

[JodyH]

Things that make me smile.
You should hear me when one of them has a lockup or has to double pump the draw in a 3 - gun match.
The Gunny would be proud.

Good news is I've converted several over to Safariland.
Now if I could just do a ECQC style dirt rolling evo with a few of them...

[Chuck Whitlock]

Baby, steps, man. Good on ya!

[TR675]

SERPA banned by Dallas PD. (http://crimeblog.dallasnews.com/2014/05/dallas-police-ban-type-of-gun-holster-for-safety-reasons.html/)

The article makes it sound like a proactive decision based on range officer research instead of in response to an injury or other bad experience, prompted by officers showing up to the range with SERPAs.

Good call by DPD.

[Lon]

Xenia OH PD has banned the serpa starting at the beginning of 2015. No injuries related to the ban. Was proactive.

[HCM]

No, so many fed LEOs with SERPAs for the same reason that most .mil types - including .socom.mil types - are carrying SERPAs - because that's what the supply system gives them. SERPA is standard issue for CBP, IIRC, and, for a lot of "uniformed" LE - you carry what they gives you, or else.

Its not part of our supply system but we have numerous agents carrying SERPAS for the reasons I listed.

One of our local second line managers took it on himself to buy every agent a SERPA with end of year money from the local budget a few years ago. This from a guy who needs remedial training just to qualify every quarter........ They're the epitome of Derp.ugh!

CBP has an approved holster list and any CBPO or BPA can carry a safari land or other approved holster.

If I recall correctly, when CBP first came out with their approved holster list the SERPA was not on the list. It was added due to the clamor of the great unwashed masses.

[KevinB]

Lobby DHS's NFTTU at Altoona PA to get the damn thing banned for CBP as well ;)

[Inspector71]

If the Serpa is so bad, then why do I see so many Border Patrol agents with them ?

[Clobbersaurus]

^^^Please go back and read the entire thread. The case that the Sepa is, at best, a very flawed design, has been made several times over by some very checked out dudes.

[orionz06]

If the Serpa is so bad, then why do I see so many Border Patrol agents with them ?

Because somewhere along the line morons call the shots.

[HCM]

If the Serpa is so bad, then why do I see so many Border Patrol agents with them ?

Because guy lost guns out of Safailand 6820's and SERPA's were cheaper than the Safailand 6360's.

The duty version of the SERPA is more durable than the standard but it's still a piece of shit.

Lets just say Border Patrol is not the organization it once was in terms of knowledge, skills and abilities re: guns and gun fighting. It is now firmly under the thumb of its new parent agency CBP. This is not a move for the better.

[Tamara]

If the Serpa is so bad, then why do I see so many Border Patrol agents with them ?

Why do agencies conduct grueling firearms selection tests and then throw darts at an LE supply catalog to pick holsters? Hell if I know. You tell me.

[Dave Williams]

I follow a few ex devgru guys on IG who are very dialed in gun guys and they use Serpas, boggles the mind.

[gtmtnbiker98]

I follow a few ex devgru guys on IG who are very dialed in gun guys and they use Serpas, boggles the mind.
Who!?

[Dave Williams]

Owen and Raso

[PNWTO]

Owen and Raso

A good deal of ex-mil will go back to using what they were issued, "dialed in" or not. There is a huge knowledge gap sometimes of "if it was good enough to be issued to Ernest Borgnine and Air Wolf it is good enough." I know Dom Raso is doing his own training gig now and his IG is mostly IWB stuff.

[Inspector71]

I was at Harper's Ferry in March for a FI recert course. Lots of the instructor cadre running up there sporting Serpa's. Just saying...

[BehindBlueI's]

I was at Harper's Ferry in March for a FI recert course. Lots of the instructor cadre running up there sporting Serpa's. Just saying...

Lots of guys do lots of things that aren't a problem right up until they are. Just saying.

[HCM]

I was at Harper's Ferry in March for a FI recert course. Lots of the instructor cadre running up there sporting Serpa's. Just saying...

Did you read the thread ?

I'm sorry to say, but many LE "firearms instructors" including many in my own agency are pretty much just target graders.

The USAF bans the SERPA, the USMC issues it. Who actually uses pistols more - hint, it's not the USMC. FLETC and many other state, local and private training facilities prohibit the SERPA as well. The only reason CBP and USBP personnel can use SERPAs at FLETC and no one else can, is is CBP hit them in the wallet by asking if FLETC was going to buy them new holsters.

The SERPA meets my agencies requirements (covered trigger guard and one active form of retention) and we have Agents who use them - it doesn't mean it's a good idea.

I've personally destroyed or seen destroyed several standard SERPAs in weapon retention training.

But hey, do what you feel.

[HopetonBrown]

I follow a few ex devgru guys on IG who are very dialed in gun guys and they use Serpas, boggles the mind.
Defoor wanted to see everyone's holster before the start of his class last year. But he's rather outspoken on the Derpa.

[Lon]

I'm sorry to say, but many LE "firearms instructors" including many in my own agency are pretty much just target graders.


Boom. Nailed it. There really should be a difference in LE "firearm instructors" and LE "range qualification officer". In my experience the ratio is heavily skewed towards the range qualification officers aka target graders.

[Tamara]

I was at Harper's Ferry in March for a FI recert course. Lots of the instructor cadre running up there sporting Serpa's. Just saying...

"Just sayin'" what? What knowledge bomb do you think you're dropping that hasn't been covered in the previous eleven pages?

[Luke]

I don't see what's wrong with the design. I like it. I actually carry AIWB with a serpa.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

NOOOOOO!

Please make it stop.

[Tamara]

I don't see what's wrong with the design. I like it. I actually carry AIWB with a serpa.

iseewhatyoudidthere.jpg

[Totem Polar]

I was at Harper's Ferry in March for a FI recert course. Lots of the instructor cadre running up there sporting Serpa's. Just saying...

Did any of them run one on camera, per chance?


http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/lmFQSMp-660x493.jpg


:D

[Luke]

I'm mean, yea, it's in the trigger guard. But how do we know it's touching the trigger? Todd Jarrett can draw super fast without touching the trigger. Bunch of haters

[Paul Sharp]

I'm mean, yea, it's in the trigger guard. But how do we know it's touching the trigger? Todd Jarrett can draw super fast without touching the trigger. Bunch of haters

Getting on the trigger faster means I can start shooting faster right? SERPA, not just a holster, think of it as a performance enhancer.

[Luke]

Getting on the trigger faster means I can start shooting faster right? SERPA, not just a holster, think of it as a performance enhancer.


Dude that makes so much sense!! I've got to try this with a DA trigger. Go ahead and start staging it

[Paul Sharp]

Dude that makes so much sense!! I've got to try this with a DA trigger. Go ahead and start staging it

I'm going to cut a chunk out of my SERPA so I can get my middle finger on the trigger while my point shooting finger hits the retention device. Straight up problem solving, performance enhancing mofos!!

Something like this, but in a SERPA. It shouldn't be that hard to do, right?

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160727/462b44e3c1c65784edb9becc85c0796a.jpg

[Inspector71]

Wow, between you guys and the folks over on warriortalk.com, I don't know who hates the Serpa the most. As a field FI instructor, I've been following the Serpa controversy since 2010 when a lot of the private sector schools starting issuing edicts to ban the Serpa style. I noted that most of their holster related discharges involved some type of Glock pistol, but lets's not open up that can of worms. Anyway, So I get scheduled for the Harpers Ferry recert class in March with 23 other FI recert instructors there doing their five year recert certification (now lowered to every three years). Class was about half BP agents and half CBP officers, with a few Air & Marine guys in the mix. On Day 1 they presented a general overview of the new Use of Force policy (now posted on the internet for the general public to view), and eventually we come around to authorized equipment. I see my opportunity to bring up the whole Serpa holster question and then waited for the answer. In a nutshell, they tell me that as an agency, we have not had any negligent discharges or other failure to perform issues with the holster. It should be noted that our issued pistol is the H&K P2000, with the LEM trigger set to break at 7.3 pounds. Now, if you have ever handled this type of LEM you realize that is has a very,very long trigger travel from contact to discharge. I believe that might be a reason that we as an agency have not had negligent discharges with the Serpa. Even if the agent/officer was over aggressive on his Serpa release, then there would still be enough built in safety (ie., long trigger travel) to prevent a discharge.

[Joe in PNG]

Why does crap gear, crap guns, and other crap always have the most ardent defenders?

[hufnagel]

People love shit. Look at all the Ford owners.

... runs really fast for the door... it's AR500 rated, right?! :D

[hufnagel]

Did any of them run one on camera, per chance?


http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/lmFQSMp-660x493.jpg


:D

I showed the video of that to my zero knowledge friend right after it came out. He was in Colorado at the time and had never carried a gun before in his life, and bought a serpa from the local shop. His exact words were "man, that won't happen!" He comes back home to NJ and we get into the debate on serpa sucks. I have him strap up, make sure his USP45 is unloaded, have him holster it cocked and unlocked. Draws 3 times slow, no issues. Me: "Now do it fast... RIGHT NOW! DRAW! DRAW! DRAW!" *click* before he even has it up to his eyes. The look on his face said it all. It went in the trash. Yes I know, cocked/unlocked isn't how you'd carry, It was done to help drive home the fact your finger touches the trigger BEFORE you want to.

Point being, some people don't get it until "It won't happen to me!" happens to them.

[HCM]

Wow, between you guys and the folks over on warriortalk.com, I don't know who hates the Serpa the most. As a field FI instructor, I've been following the Serpa controversy since 2010 when a lot of the private sector schools starting issuing edicts to ban the Serpa style. I noted that most of their holster related discharges involved some type of Glock pistol, but lets's not open up that can of worms. Anyway, So I get scheduled for the Harpers Ferry recert class in March with 23 other FI recert instructors there doing their five year recert certification (now lowered to every three years). Class was about half BP agents and half CBP officers, with a few Air & Marine guys in the mix. On Day 1 they presented a general overview of the new Use of Force policy (now posted on the internet for the general public to view), and eventually we come around to authorized equipment. I see my opportunity to bring up the whole Serpa holster question and then waited for the answer. In a nutshell, they tell me that as an agency, we have not had any negligent discharges or other failure to perform issues with the holster. It should be noted that our issued pistol is the H&K P2000, with the LEM trigger set to break at 7.3 pounds. Now, if you have ever handled this type of LEM you realize that is has a very,very long trigger travel from contact to discharge. I believe that might be a reason that we as an agency have not had negligent discharges with the Serpa. Even if the agent/officer was over aggressive on his Serpa release, then there would still be enough built in safety (ie., long trigger travel) to prevent a discharge.

I carried an LEM as my duty and off duty gun for 8 years. Relying on the length of weight of the trigger pull to prevent ND's is bullshit.

There were four SERPA related ND's at FLETC facilities prior to them being banned, I know for sure one of them involved a DA/SA SIG P229.

[AMC]

Hey Inspector71.......nice handle. Though we don't use those call signs anymore, sadly. Stone his partner and Harry would be 5H(five-henry) something-or-other.....probably 5H200. Hell, we're phasing out the whole damn rank.....

[BillSWPA]

I showed the video of that to my zero knowledge friend right after it came out. He was in Colorado at the time and had never carried a gun before in his life, and bought a serpa from the local shop. His exact words were "man, that won't happen!" He comes back home to NJ and we get into the debate on serpa sucks. I have him strap up, make sure his USP45 is unloaded, have him holster it cocked and unlocked. Draws 3 times slow, no issues. Me: "Now do it fast... RIGHT NOW! DRAW! DRAW! DRAW!" *click* before he even has it up to his eyes. The look on his face said it all. It went in the trash. Yes I know, cocked/unlocked isn't how you'd carry, It was done to help drive home the fact your finger touches the trigger BEFORE you want to.

Point being, some people don't get it until "It won't happen to me!" happens to them.

Safeties can and do get wiped off safe unintentionally. When I carry a 1911, I use a holster with a sweat shield covering the safety if using a single side safety, and a holster specifically designed to hold the safety on safe if using an ambi safety. Without seeing the safety on the gun in question and how well protected it was by the holster, it is possible that your test replicated a situation that could have happened while the gun was being carried.

[Duelist]

Safeties can and do get wiped off safe unintentionally. When I carry a 1911, I use a holster with a sweat shield covering the safety if using a single side safety, and a holster specifically designed to hold the safety on safe if using an ambi safety. Without seeing the safety on the gun in question and how well protected it was by the holster, it is possible that your test replicated a situation that could have happened while the gun was being carried.

I stopped carrying a single action I liked quite well exactly because of this - the safety would be off when I drew it from the holster. Maybe I just needed a different holster, but my head is happier with a TDA pistol.

[Malamute]

I stopped carrying a single action I liked quite well exactly because of this - the safety would be off when I drew it from the holster. Maybe I just needed a different holster, but my head is happier with a TDA pistol.

Some holsters are formed on a gun mold with the safety off on the mold, pushing the safety off when carried in the holster. The Bianchi leather holsters seem prone to this. Some 1911 safeties can be filed on a little to make then take a little more pressure to take the safety off also.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Just FYI - I found that a Kydex IWB left handed Blade-Tech holster would flex enough getting in and out of the car to consistently press the mag release. Draw, drop mag, WTF, OMG!

One of the reasons, I switched to OWB. Also, comfort and not having to worry about pant sizes.

I think I mentioned elsewhere in this endless debate, that we had a few Serpa legs at matches. Didn't see that but watched a beginnner trying to release his gun and that scared the crap out of us. The SO had to stop him. A very professional LEO and excellent shooter tried out one that his agency was going to use. Same kind of trouble. I had a post that explained the affordance trap somewhere above.

[Tamara]

Why does crap gear, crap guns, and other crap always have the most ardent defenders?

People get their egos tied up in the most unlikely places.

[Peally]

People get their egos tied up in the most unlikely places.

"This (insert piece of shit here) has always worked for me and I'm basically a SEAL! You're wrong! This shit defines me!"

Sad but true.

[BehindBlueI's]

Wow, between you guys and the folks over on warriortalk.com, I don't know who hates the Serpa the most. As a field FI instructor, I've been following the Serpa controversy since 2010 when a lot of the private sector schools starting issuing edicts to ban the Serpa style. I noted that most of their holster related discharges involved some type of Glock pistol, but lets's not open up that can of worms. Anyway, So I get scheduled for the Harpers Ferry recert class in March with 23 other FI recert instructors there doing their five year recert certification (now lowered to every three years). Class was about half BP agents and half CBP officers, with a few Air & Marine guys in the mix. On Day 1 they presented a general overview of the new Use of Force policy (now posted on the internet for the general public to view), and eventually we come around to authorized equipment. I see my opportunity to bring up the whole Serpa holster question and then waited for the answer. In a nutshell, they tell me that as an agency, we have not had any negligent discharges or other failure to perform issues with the holster. It should be noted that our issued pistol is the H&K P2000, with the LEM trigger set to break at 7.3 pounds. Now, if you have ever handled this type of LEM you realize that is has a very,very long trigger travel from contact to discharge. I believe that might be a reason that we as an agency have not had negligent discharges with the Serpa. Even if the agent/officer was over aggressive on his Serpa release, then there would still be enough built in safety (ie., long trigger travel) to prevent a discharge.

Neat. As it's evident you've not read the thread in it's entirety, allow me to share a bit with you. We've never had an ND with one, either. We've had one locked up tighter than Dick's hat band because a small piece of debris got behind the mechanism. An armorer had to destroy the holster to get the pistol out. That's damn good at preventing NDs, but makes it tough if you want an Intentional Discharge. Our T&E guys then did their thing. Packed snow can lock your gun in the holster. Small pebbles can lock your gun in the holster. Packed mud can lock your gun in your holster. If you're an LEO, you probably know someone (or are someone) who's been knocked on his ass by a suspect or who's wrestled around on the ground with a suspect. You probably know someone (or are someone) who's been coated in mud, snow, or been ground in gravel. Given current school of thought on retention where the holster will likely be subjected to whatever is on the ground... I DON'T WANT A HOLSTER THAT LOCKS MY FUCKING GUN IN THE FUCKING HOLSTER IN ADVERSE CONDITIONS. So, questions of NDs aside, I will not use a Serpa holster nor would I recommend it to anyone who works in the real world.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

From my psychological and babbling perspective, I agree with Tam and Peally. People want to achieve dominance, esp. males. Therefore they decorate themselves in various ways - with clothes and gear. Happens in all cultures. So when you chose a display object to proclaim warrior status - how can you then admit that your decorations are unworthy? You lose your position in the dominance hierarchy.

That's why folks won't train. You have to be willing to look crappy and not the world's greatest natural gunfighter. The Glock grip flexes too much for me to be accurate. The sights are off in this new gun. That load won't work for me.

The correct attitude is to be an experimentalist. Try some gear, if it doesn't work - it goes into the box of crappy gear.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

https://blog.hsoi.com/2016/09/12/and-yet-another-serpa-fail/

Watch the video. New shooter at a match this past weekend. The SO took him aside to tell him not to worry about speed and how you do this. Suggested that maybe there are better options. Interesting issue - a new gun comes with one. New gun - new shooter? New shooter - new hole? New hole - new lawsuit for supplying such a holster?

[HCM]

FYI the actual Holster Study and supporting documentation which lead to FLETC's banning SERPA style holsters has been released via FOIA and ca be viewed here:

https://www.fletc.gov/sites/default/files/imported_files/reference/public-information/freedom-of-information-act-foia/reading-room/training-information/holisterStudy.pdf

It includes references to the four Negligent Discharges with injury which have occurred at FLETC with SERPA holsters, two at the Glynco, GA facility and two at Cheltenham, MD.

It's worth noting the Cheltenham, MD FLETC does not do basic training, only in-service and instructor schools so at least half the ND's did not involve novice shooters.

[HCountyGuy]

At some point I have to wonder if it's really a design issue or more of an "I'm all high-speed tacticool, watch this" level of complacency that sparks these NDs.

For the amount of SERPA users there are, were this design so dangerous I would think at some point the number of NDs would warrant an unquestionable outright ban of these holsters. I get that these holsters are sub-grade quality, but this whole inherently dangerous dead horse almost has not a carcass left to wail on IMO.

[Luke]

If you have a slow draw, and never draw under stress I don't see an issue with it. These holsters suck balls and anyone who says any different is weird. That's a fact, not opinion.

[olstyn]

At some point I have to wonder if it's really a design issue or more of an "I'm all high-speed tacticool, watch this" level of complacency that sparks these NDs.

Granted, that probably factors into at least some of the SERPA-involved self shootings that have occurred. That said, a design which exacerbates human error rather than mitigating it is a bad design.

[psalms144.1]

At some point I have to wonder if it's really a design issue or more of an "I'm all high-speed tacticool, watch this" level of complacency that sparks these NDs.Could be, if the camera is rolling for YouTube, people will do any amount of incredibly stupid shit. I'm more concerned, however, with the marginally trained person who's placed under stress - like basic students in an LE academy trying to "make time" on the qualification, or the average gun owner who shoots 20 rounds through a new pistol and calls it good, then has to get his pistol into action in a stressful class or on the street.

Bottom line, I'm really just about done with SERPA, and talking about it. The last person in my squad who had one, I dug up an older, used but serviceable kydex holster from my holster stash, and gave it to her, then said I would NOT allow her to shoot on my range with the SERPA any more. She's welcome to drive to shoot her SERPA with a different instructor, but, life is too short to deal with stupid shit.

For the life of me, I can't understand why ANYONE would even consider a SERPA, but, there are folks spouting off about empty-chamber pocket carry on this forum, so, who knows...

[hufnagel]

At some point I have to wonder if it's really a design issue or more of an "I'm all high-speed tacticool, watch this" level of complacency that sparks these NDs.

For the amount of SERPA users there are, were this design so dangerous I would think at some point the number of NDs would warrant an unquestionable outright ban of these holsters. I get that these holsters are sub-grade quality, but this whole inherently dangerous dead horse almost has not a carcass left to wail on IMO.

the Summary of Findings from the URL posted by HCM details out exactly the argument against your statement.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I know a guy who shot himself with one and he was an experienced shooter.
Next, I saw an officer who was a very experienced shooter try one out as it was issued to him. He struggled with it and had a low opinion.
I watched a newbie struggle so much that the SO stopped him.
Recently, the SO took a newbie aside to explain the error under discussion.

I explained the error also in a past post on affordances. I also wonder if the lawsuits against the company and a gun manfacturer who supplies them are waiting to be discover.

[HCountyGuy]

I get that experienced people have had NDs with these holsters. But, at what point do we consider complacency developed through prolonged exposure to weapon handling?

As I've mentioned before the two largest local LEAs here use SERPAs, both the level 2 and level 3 versions. Given the one department's high recruiting and turn-over rate, one would think they should've had an ND "caused by the holster" in the years since they switched from Safariland holsters to using Serpas. The only fuck-up I can recall was a recruit somehow shooting another in the head some years back at the department's range.

It's certainly possible they've had issues and they've been swept under the rug, but knowing some of the folks with say-so in utilized equipment if there was such a problem they'd have trash-binned the things most ricky-tick.

I still find it ironic how much the Serpa is trashed for "contributing to NDs" but few squawk about the staggering number of NDs that result from Glock's take-down system or tacti-tards lightening the trigger with ghost connectors and then having an ND due to the lighter trigger pull. Not to mention the irony of folks who advocate AIWB carry decrying something as unsafe.

[HCountyGuy]

You perhaps think statements like this contribute to the discussion. They do not.

If you're referring to the "tacti-tards" comment, that certainly was not aimed at anyone here. I recognize that many of the individuals participating in these discussions have a greater proficiency and depth of knowledge well beyond my own. I was referring to the average gun tinkerer who watches Yeager/Zero vids, buys a Glock to be an operator, then starts slapping in parts so he can be the cool kid at the local playground.

ToddG even wrote a piece on the folks chasing that light trigger pull, chasing the hardware solution to a software problem.
http://pistol-training.com/archives/65

As for the AIWB portion, I'm certainly not knocking the practice in itself. But there is a moderate degree of irony in a collective calling out something as unsafe while keeping a loaded gun a few centimeters from their genitals and essentially pointed at themselves during the practice at some point in their day.

[HCM]

If you're referring to the "tacti-tards" comment, that certainly was not aimed at anyone here. I recognize that many of the individuals participating in these discussions have a greater proficiency and depth of knowledge well beyond my own. I was referring to the average gun tinkerer who watches Yeager/Zero vids, buys a Glock to be an operator, then starts slapping in parts so he can be the cool kid at the local playground.

ToddG even wrote a piece on the folks chasing that light trigger pull, chasing the hardware solution to a software problem.
http://pistol-training.com/archives/65

As for the AIWB portion, I'm certainly not knocking the practice in itself. But there is a moderate degree of irony in a collective calling out something as unsafe while keeping a loaded gun a few centimeters from their genitals and essentially pointed at themselves during the practice at some point in their day.

Your changing the subject.

LEAs, particularly smaller one choose gear for all sorts of reasons, two common ones which often lead to bad decisions are 1) cost, and 2) Chief So and So, who thinks he is a gun guy likes it so that's what we bought.

For example Glock likely put as many of their pistols in LE holsters on cost and taking LE executives on paid junkets to Atlanta ( and the Atlanta Gold Club) as did the actual merits and performance of the pistol itself.

The GA Public Safety Training Center also prohibits the use of the SERPA. Like FLETC they got push back from agencies which issue the SERPA asking if the training center was going to buy them new holsters.

The compromise FLETC came up with was to only allow the SERPA if it was the agency issued holster. Of the 80 partner organizations AFAIK, CBP is a he only one still issuing the SERPA. This is not an endorsement. Their firearms people know the SERPA is a POS, but management and the bean counters don't want to buy 40k new holsters. But hey, in the Obama administration hope is plan, right?

[HopetonBrown]

Video (https://www.facebook.com/crosshairstexas/videos/1261201887224044/) by a gun store owner who shot himself with the free Serpa-style holster that came with a Canik TP-9 on Sept 10. You don't need a Facebook account to view.

[Alembic]

I get that experienced people have had NDs with these holsters. But, at what point do we consider complacency developed through prolonged exposure to weapon handling?

As I've mentioned before the two largest local LEAs here use SERPAs, both the level 2 and level 3 versions. Given the one department's high recruiting and turn-over rate, one would think they should've had an ND "caused by the holster" in the years since they switched from Safariland holsters to using Serpas. The only fuck-up I can recall was a recruit somehow shooting another in the head some years back at the department's range.

It's certainly possible they've had issues and they've been swept under the rug, but knowing some of the folks with say-so in utilized equipment if there was such a problem they'd have trash-binned the things most ricky-tick.

I still find it ironic how much the Serpa is trashed for "contributing to NDs" but few squawk about the staggering number of NDs that result from Glock's take-down system or tacti-tards lightening the trigger with ghost connectors and then having an ND due to the lighter trigger pull. Not to mention the irony of folks who advocate AIWB carry decrying something as unsafe.


I'm sorry to post meaning less shit, and I know this is not the Festivus thread,
but I have to ask, why do you keep beating this horse?
Actually I don't care why, just stop. Read, come to your own conclusion and move on.

And my apologies if I come off as a dick, I just want see more SME posts and less, "well I know two guys and this happened to them," posts.

Please try to read, learn, and keep mouth shut.