trigger finger safety

[breakingtime91]

doing a split off of the competition thread discussion of safety.

So is it a detriment to get on the trigger later then sooner?


My opinion is no, since I have managed more threats then I have shot. I stated earlier that I did a lot of searching/detaining of people and one of the biggest things I stressed was safety and full extension of trigger finger.. Why? Enough can change in a situation from when you take a weapon off safe/put your finger in the trigger for a GOOD shoot to become a BAD shoot. I know some will say that will potentially get you or someone else killed, I would argue that it is a compromise of averages. I gave more people the front site post then I ever engaged so it seemed better to give myself a barrier between don't shoot/shoot. It only takes one stupid decision to ruin your life. I am trying to find the video of the officer who is covering a suspect being cuffed when she NDs her Glock into him, pretty good example of what I am talking about.


*Mods, if this is in the wrong area I apologize.


edit:It looks like a Beretta?

[JV_]

This one:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pv89_3rrW8Y

[60167]

Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire. You are risking too much by doing otherwise.

[Chuck Haggard]

I teach keep the trigger finger at a point of positive reference until the decision to fire is made AND you are moving the gun into position to shoot. I won't say "sights on target" because you might be shooting from retention.

IMHO, cops point guns at WAY too many people they shouldn't be pointing guns at, trigger finger is a sketchy safety, muzzle control should be thrown in as well.

[breakingtime91]

I teach keep the trigger finger at a point of positive reference until the decision to fire is made AND you are moving the gun into position to shoot. I won't say "sights on target" because you might be shooting from retention.

IMHO, cops point guns at WAY too many people they shouldn't be pointing guns at, trigger finger is a sketchy safety, muzzle control should be thrown in as well.

Agreed chuck. we also only ever pointed our weapons when deemed necessary (hostile actions or spiddy senses)

[Mr_White]

I teach keep the trigger finger at a point of positive reference until the decision to fire is made AND you are moving the gun into position to shoot. I won't say "sights on target" because you might be shooting from retention.

I think that's good way to phrase it Chuck. The 'seeing sights on target' part is an important distinction as well that I think gets lost in the way I frequently see it expressed.

[jetfire]

I think that's good way to phrase it Chuck. The 'seeing sights on target' part is an important distinction as well that I think gets lost in the way I frequently see it expressed.

Yeah, I'll have to jump on the "decision to fire" bandwagon myself too. One, because there are photos of me getting my finger on a revolver trigger when there's literally no way I could see the sights, and two because I can think of multiple times in a single match where I've shot stuff from a rough index position and didn't even bother with the sights at all.

[Mr_White]

The big problem with taking the hardline position that it's not ok to put your finger on the trigger until you have visually verified sights on target is that it ignores both retention, and shooting from some intermediary position like the #3, where there is kinesthetic or coarsely visually verified aiming going on, or a combination of the two, which can be very reasonable under some circumstances. I think there has to be room for other ways of knowing the gun is in alignment with the target than only seeing the sights and I am not a fan of carving out an ideological position that excludes those other ways of knowing.

Another fine distinction that gets lost in these discussions is the issue of the timeline of taking the finger out of register vs. actively manipulating the trigger. It takes time to move the finger from register to the trigger, then it takes more time to press the trigger. In the case of a very efficient draw, I think a finger can leave register before the two hands have joined, not actually touch the trigger until after the hands have joined, and only be actively pressing the trigger very near to the end of the stroke when there has been more visual verification of gun-target alignment. I said stroke.

And I think safety principle number four has a big role to play here. The classic hostage shot may demand that the gun be on target and stopped before the finger leaves the register position, but if it's you, the other guy a few yards away, and a brick wall behind him, firing before the gun settles out of motion may be a good idea.

[Clobbersaurus]

I think Nyeti said he teaches a "feel steel" register position which is what I use with Beretta's. With Glocks and 1911's I use an ejection port register. GJM once commented to me that there is no way these register positions are as fast as a trigger guard or frame register, which I have tested on my own and have found to be false. But maybe my draw speed is too slow, and that is coloring my own experience.

Also, for me, a slide or ejection port register, out of the holster, makes it much harder for me to get on the trigger before I hit the end of my draw stroke. At the speeds I dry fire at (1.3 seconds draw and fire to low % target from concealed), I find it very hard to get on the trigger sooner than when I have made the decision to fire and am aligning my sights.

If I am really pushing time and going for an under one second concealed draw, the movement is so fast that I barely have conscious decision of when my trigger finger is moving off register. I have very poor quality dry fire video of myself doing sub one second draws from concealment and it looks like I'm just coming off register as my hands meet and start my press out. This is not something I do on the range, because: too fast for my ability.

[jetfire]

You mean to say that shooting, whether for tactical or competition purposes, is a dynamic activity and applying dogmatic interpretations of basic safety rules isn't always the best answer?

SAY IT AIN'T SO, BRAH

[JHC]

edit: covered already

[Fourtrax]

I'm on the trigger at the earliest safest opportunity. Early as possible. Safety is off and finger is on at the earliest opportunity. I don't get the discussion. Seems like it's much ado about nothing?

Some of this discussion completely ignores common sense.

If Evil Kneivel is riding wheelies down the highway at 55mph, is that dangerous for Evil? Or it it dangerous to the guy that can't ride the wheelie and just witnesses the act?

Those that do........do. Those that can't ......... Don't. Or, maybe they teach, same difference.

[wtturn]

I'm on the trigger at the earliest safest opportunity. Early as possible. Safety is off and finger is on at the earliest opportunity. I don't get the discussion. Seems like it's much ado about nothing?

Some of this discussion completely ignores common sense.

If Evil Kneivel is riding wheelies down the highway at 55mph, is that dangerous for Evil? Or it it dangerous to the guy that can't ride the wheelie and just witnesses the act?

Those that do........do. Those that can't ......... Don't. Or, maybe they teach, same difference.

preach.

[breakingtime91]

I'm on the trigger at the earliest safest opportunity. Early as possible. Safety is off and finger is on at the earliest opportunity. I don't get the discussion. Seems like it's much ado about nothing?

Some of this discussion completely ignores common sense.

If Evil Kneivel is riding wheelies down the highway at 55mph, is that dangerous for Evil? Or it it dangerous to the guy that can't ride the wheelie and just witnesses the act?

Those that do........do. Those that can't ......... Don't. Or, maybe they teach, same difference.

not sure I understand any of your post. Safest opprutonity, got It. The rest of it just doesn't make sense

[LSP552]

Gabe and Chuck are very smart men and I can't add anything of substance to what they said.

IMO, in the LE world, people tend to creep on the trigger when they less secure in their ability. In their mind, it's a way to gain speed and advantage, and it's praying to a false God. Like most things it a training issue, combined with a confidence issue.

[Dagga Boy]

I teach keep the trigger finger at a point of positive reference until the decision to fire is made AND you are moving the gun into position to shoot. I won't say "sights on target" because you might be shooting from retention.

IMHO, cops point guns at WAY too many people they shouldn't be pointing guns at, trigger finger is a sketchy safety, muzzle control should be thrown in as well.

From retention, your sights are on target if you are doing it right.....so I am good with "sights on target".

Many people lose the fact that there are multiple ways to fire a pistol without the brain involved. I could give a care on the competition thread as most really don't care and it comes down to who is doing it...again, whatever, not my sport and doesn't affect me.

In this realm, situations will drastically change in the middle of a press (most active LEO's have had this happen numerous times), targets are smart enough to not stand still and you need a solid sight track prior to pressing (hard to time this right without the sights on and tracking), and you have ever changing environmental issues. I was on a trigger press once when the suspects mother ran past me and tackled her son who was charging me with a large knife....sometimes being right is more important than being fast.

My biggest issue with much of this stuff trying to apply the competition optional safety rules, particularly on the golden rules of the physical ones #2 and 3 where non shoots are regularly covered as a matter of practice and fingers are regularly in trigger guards. If that complies to the sport rules, then that is the rules. That is not the case when living breathing humans are down range in a 360 degree environment. If you allow this during training for the 360 in a 180, it will be a sub-conscious habit. This is one area we have learned a ton about in the last 25 years. We can either accept current best practices or continue using he same practices that not only resulted in a period when a third of SWAT cops shot were shot by there own people and numerous ND's also occurred, many fatal to those who should not of been shot.

I just wish people would work within the parameters of what we know works and if they fall outside of that then gladly accept responsibility when it goes wrong and quit making excuses.

[Chuck Haggard]

I'm on the trigger at the earliest safest opportunity. Early as possible. Safety is off and finger is on at the earliest opportunity. I don't get the discussion. Seems like it's much ado about nothing?

Some of this discussion completely ignores common sense.

If Evil Kneivel is riding wheelies down the highway at 55mph, is that dangerous for Evil? Or it it dangerous to the guy that can't ride the wheelie and just witnesses the act?

Those that do........do. Those that can't ......... Don't. Or, maybe they teach, same difference.

Early as possible may be completely inappropriate to the situation at hand, might be OK, might not be, hence why we are talking about this stuff.

If Evel (correct spelling) is riding a wheelie down the highway at 0330 and there is no other traffic, then OK, who cares?, but what if it's rush hour, what if it's through a crowded mall parking lot, what if it's through a kindergarten playground?

"Those who can..." silly assed bullshit platitudes bring nothing useful to the discussion.

[Wayne Dobbs]

I'm on the trigger at the earliest safest opportunity. Early as possible. Safety is off and finger is on at the earliest opportunity. I don't get the discussion. Seems like it's much ado about nothing?

Some of this discussion completely ignores common sense.

If Evil Kneivel is riding wheelies down the highway at 55mph, is that dangerous for Evil? Or it it dangerous to the guy that can't ride the wheelie and just witnesses the act?


Those that do........do. Those that can't ......... Don't. Or, maybe they teach, same difference.


You're not from around here, so you get a pass. But....you're showing your ass around a metric ton of us who HAVE done, still DO and TEACH also and we're not talking about shooting cardboard at fantasy gun camp. Nyeti, Chuck Haggard and I have all been on sights and trigger on assholes and stopped the shot(s). That can only be done if you're still in a logical (as opposed to emotional/limbic) frame of mind and are still doing a threat evaluation as you refine sights and press triggers.

Getting on a trigger as soon as possible, results in fast, but not necessarily faster, shots. It also results in shots fired that hit things you may not want to at times. Most of the time we get lucky on those, but many times we don't. Fast doesn't mean right, it just means fast.

Finger off the trigger and in register until THREE things happen: target identified, decision to shoot target formed based on objective reason(s) and weapon is oriented on the target (sights on). Keeps us from shooting without our brain firing the shot, don't ya know!

[23JAZ]

You're not from around here, so you get a pass. But....you're showing your ass around a metric ton of us who HAVE done, still DO and TEACH also and we're not talking about shooting cardboard at fantasy gun camp. Nyeti, Chuck Haggard and I have all been on sights and trigger on assholes and stopped the shot(s).. :eek:

^awesome^

Games or real life, keep your finger indexed on metal until you're ready to shoot. It's doesn't matter how good you are or think you are you're still human!

[Kyle Reese]

Fourtrax is banned.

[GJM]

Finger off the trigger and in register until THREE things happen: target identified, decision to shoot target formed based on objective reason(s) and weapon is oriented on the target (sights on). Keeps us from shooting without our brain firing the shot, don't ya know!

I am curious about your third requirement -- "weapon is oriented on the target (sights on)."

Once you have decided to shoot and are in the process, do you let your finger leave register naturally as part of the firing process, or do you consciously delay your finger leaving register until the pistol has stopped and the sights are aligned? I can see the answer being different depending upon whether there is a non-threat there as well. The reason I ask, is keeping your finger in hard register until the gun has stopped and sights are aligned will add significant time.

[Chuck Haggard]

Not speaking for Wayne, but lets say I am drawing to a shot, with a bad guy in the open at fairly close range and standing in front of a brick wall and no one is around him, can I safely start to get my trigger finger into the trigger guard at about the 2 position and work the problem as a press-out? I sure can.

Lets say I have that same bad guy at low ready, giving commands, and he decides to fight, can I get my finger onto the trigger and get the slack out on the rise? Sure, with the worst penalty being that my first shot clips the guy's knee or pelvis because I am a little too much "slack out" on the way up.

Most problems are not that clear cut on the street in the cop world, or the military spec ops world, and the penalty for hitting no shoots is vastly greater than one or five seconds. I note that even at the Tac Conference when people realize that the penalty for hitting a no-shoot is 100 seconds that they slow their roll noticeably.
Now, change the match to where Tom gets to keep your guns, your wallet and your car if you shoot a no-shoot and you have to walk home wearing a dunce cap, and see how people start to act.

I get in the other thread where folks are talking "match vs street", totally get it, and get that you may be giving up micro seconds in the match and may not score as well by going a tad slower. Some of us are willing to live with that.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Not speaking for Wayne, but lets say I am drawing to a shot, with a bad guy in the open at fairly close range and standing in front of a brick wall and no one is around him, can I safely start to get my trigger finger into the trigger guard at about the 2 position and work the problem as a press-out? I sure can.

Lets say I have that same bad guy at low ready, giving commands, and he decides to fight, can I get my finger onto the trigger and get the slack out on the rise? Sure, with the worst penalty being that my first shot clips the guy's knee or pelvis because I am a little too much "slack out" on the way up.

Most problems are not that clear cut on the street in the cop world, or the military spec ops world, and the penalty for hitting no shoots is vastly greater than one or five seconds. I note that even at the Tac Conference when people realize that the penalty for hitting a no-shoot is 100 seconds that they slow their roll noticeably.
Now, change the match to where Tom gets to keep your guns, your wallet and your car if you shoot a no-shoot and you have to walk home wearing a dunce cap, and see how people start to act.

I get in the other thread where folks are talking "match vs street", totally get it, and get that you may be giving up micro seconds in the match and may not score as well by going a tad slower. Some of us are willing to live with that.

There's your answer GJM.

[JustOneGun]

We've had this discussion before. It seems to me that we try to break it down to an either or scenario. Many new shooters are motivated to get on the trigger quickly to save their lives and we reiterate the safety rules and leave it at that. I think that is a bad idea. They are going to do what they think will keep them alive. If you don't convince them there is a better way then isn't that just bad instructing?

If you want to put the sight on target and then move your finger, more power to you. But if you are going to start early I believe it is a good idea to show a student how to put the trigger finger onto the trigger at the end of the draw, not the beginning. It takes so little time to take up the slack and press when compared to the overall draw that once you have the student shoot this way he/she is willing to practice that way.

At that point have we not made the differences between the two camps functionally (time) very small? Not only is that important, no matter what philosophical camp you come from, but I have found that given just a bit of stress those two shooters tend to shoot the exact same way.

[GJM]

I wasn't criticizing what Wayne said. I pay close attention to what Wayne says, and was just trying to make sure I understood what he is saying. After processing, discussion can continue. :)

[Chuck Haggard]

Unless trained otherwise people will in fact do what they feel is best under stress, with fight or flight that may be to poop themselves and try to run when that isn't the best response.
Because it makes them feel better, and no one has told them otherwise, we see legions of cops pointing guns at people that they have zero articulable reason for pointing a gun at. This is un-sat.

[Wayne Dobbs]

I wasn't criticizing what Wayne said. I pay close attention to what Wayne says, and was just trying to make sure I understood what he is saying. After processing, discussion can continue. :)

There was clearly no criticism perceived, George! I don't wait until the end of the pistol's presentation/orientation to get on the trigger. It's done when I absolutely know that I'm going to fire and that the gun is oriented (although not necessarily aimed) at the target. Sometimes that's sooner and sometimes it's later. I wait until I've cleared step three of the draw to touch and slack out the trigger on a draw and fire. On a ready position shot, I touch and slack as the gun comes up from ready and covers the target. It's actually very simple and it keeps me from doing stupid stuff!

[taadski]

There was clearly no criticism perceived, George! I don't wait until the end of the pistol's presentation/orientation to get on the trigger. It's done when I absolutely know that I'm going to fire and that the gun is oriented (although not necessarily aimed) at the target. Sometimes that's sooner and sometimes it's later. I wait until I've cleared step three of the draw to touch and slack out the trigger on a draw and fire. On a ready position shot, I touch and slack as the gun comes up from ready and covers the target. It's actually very simple and it keeps me from doing stupid stuff!

Wayne,

I don't mind pointing out that this very closely replicates the process that Jorge (our open shooter from the other thread) is in the midst of, no? He had identified the steel as the target, has made the decision to shoot as he's coming into position and is in the process of bringing the gun into the eye target line as he's prepping the trigger. I'm NOT saying that there aren't tons of permutations in an LE/real-life context that will affect our ability to take these steps, but under the circumstances you describe in your clarification, the trigger finger particulars are pretty darn similar, IMO.

"Threat" identified? check
Decision to shoot made? check
Pistol oriented toward the target? check

Maybe, just maybe, we're not quite as apples to oranges as everyone is assuming?

FWIW, I'm a full time cop that spends quite a bit of time training for gun games and competing, so obviously these threads are of very special interest…



t

[Wayne Dobbs]

Wayne,

I don't mind pointing out that this very closely replicates the process that Jorge (our open shooter from the other thread) is in the midst of, no? He had identified the steel as the target, has made the decision to shoot as he's coming into position and is in the process of bringing the gun into the eye target line as he's prepping the trigger. I'm NOT saying that there aren't tons of permutations in an LE/real-life context that will affect our ability to take these steps, but under the circumstances you describe in your clarification, the trigger finger particulars are pretty darn similar, IMO.

"Threat" identified? check
Decision to shoot made? check
Pistol oriented toward the target? check

Maybe, just maybe, we're not quite as apples to oranges as everyone is assuming?

FWIW, I'm a full time cop that spends quite a bit of time training for gun games and competing, so obviously these threads are of very special interest…



t

Close in many ways I'm sure. Just make sure that you're not teaching yourself to get on triggers and/or shoot too fast. You must continue to assess the threats as you begin the engagement and throughout said engagement. Most don't do that process and outrun their headlights.

[GJM]

There was clearly no criticism perceived, George! I don't wait until the end of the pistol's presentation/orientation to get on the trigger. It's done when I absolutely know that I'm going to fire and that the gun is oriented (although not necessarily aimed) at the target. Sometimes that's sooner and sometimes it's later. I wait until I've cleared step three of the draw to touch and slack out the trigger on a draw and fire. On a ready position shot, I touch and slack as the gun comes up from ready and covers the target. It's actually very simple and it keeps me from doing stupid stuff!

That clarifies the question I had, and makes sense to me. I may actually be a tad later than you with a Glock, as my goal is to be lightly touching the face of the trigger, but not take up the slack. The reasons I do it that way, are the instances I have triggered a shot early have been aggressively prepping on the presentation, and I find my accuracy is better when I run the whole travel of the trigger in one continuous motion. Being lightly on the face, costs me .05 compared to being fully prepped, and that trade off is worth it to me both on the brown cardboard and out on the tundra.

I originally thought you were saying that you only brought your finger from register after you had the pistol out there on target, which meant you would have been waiting on your trigger to move from register after stopping the gun.

[Chuck Haggard]

I'm actually anti the commonly seen in LE "aimed in at the target but trigger finger in register" thing, it's not as safe as people think, AND it's common to completely shank the shot when the shooter does have to fire quickly because they get on the trigger fast and slap the hell out of it.

[GJM]

I'm actually anti the commonly seen in LE "aimed in at the target but trigger finger in register" thing, it's not as safe as people think, AND it's common to completely shank the shot when the shooter does have to fire quickly because they get on the trigger fast and slap the hell out of it.

No LE experience here, but I am around firearms in the field a lot. I am first, and foremost, interested in muzzle direction.

If a muzzle is covering me that is a big problem, regardless of finger position. Finger position is an additional safety step, but way, way, way after muzzle direction as far as I am concerned, since the muzzle has to cover me to hurt me. Finger position calls almost inevitably leads to butthurt, because of the issues the safety thread raised. Plus, almost everyone thinks they get on the trigger later than they do. In contrast, muzzle direction is more black and white, for both the pointer and pointee.

[taadski]

snip….You must continue to assess the threats as you begin the engagement and throughout said engagement. Most don't do that process and outrun their headlights.

Agreed. And thanks.

[Chuck Haggard]

No LE experience here, but I am around firearms in the field a lot. I am first, and foremost, interested in muzzle direction.

If a muzzle is covering me that is a big problem, regardless of finger position. Finger position is an additional safety step, but way, way, way after muzzle direction as far as I am concerned, since the muzzle has to cover me to hurt me. Finger position calls almost inevitably leads to butthurt, because of the issues the safety thread raised. Plus, almost everyone thinks they get on the trigger later than they do. In contrast, muzzle direction is more black and white, for both the pointer and pointee.

Agreed, hence me being such a "muzzle Nazi"

[Dagga Boy]

I always find it interesting that most agree that you likely will not be able to feel your reset point in an actual shooting and will likely be run on a point that we have imbedded in our brain from training. Yet, when we discuss when to place our finger on the trigger a bunch of folks think they'll be able to have a fine level of tactile ability to feel when they are touching the trigger....just a little bit.

I have investigated lots of cases with problems all the way through the process, and why I am a in the camp of wiring things into your sub conscious that is street workable, because that is my area of interest. If others want to wire a competition version of this in, live with the results if you ever try to work it in total chaos instead of how it is normally employed.

[Dagga Boy]

No LE experience here, but I am around firearms in the field a lot. I am first, and foremost, interested in muzzle direction.

If a muzzle is covering me that is a big problem, regardless of finger position. Finger position is an additional safety step, but way, way, way after muzzle direction as far as I am concerned, since the muzzle has to cover me to hurt me. Finger position calls almost inevitably leads to butthurt, because of the issues the safety thread raised. Plus, almost everyone thinks they get on the trigger later than they do. In contrast, muzzle direction is more black and white, for both the pointer and pointee.

In a totally brain controlled event...probably. The problem comes in when the brain is not involved. Events involving balance disturbance, overflow from the other hand, startle, etc., will also distrust where the muzzle is and we have some major issues.

[Dagga Boy]

Taadski, I wanted to address this from the other thread as I just have no interest in sport shooting safety issues.

"As has been alluded, I think it's hard to understand that level of refinement and it's potential application in the tactical realm. As a result, I listen VERY closely to the folks that have both BTDT AND have reached high levels in the competitive realm. The consistent assertion that speed and the pursuit of managing it is somehow going to lead to "outrunning the headlights" is particularly cumbersome. IMO, there's A LOT that can be learned from the gamer side regarding becoming a better, faster (and more consistent and observant ) shooter. "Outrunning the headlights" under stress, it seems to me, is perhaps in part a function of not having experience and training functioning at those speeds."

Here is the issue I have with what is a generally good observation. While there is the benefit of seeing pure mechanical and technical capability, and there are some BTDT folks who have high capabilities, we really don't have the opportunity to see how those capabilities play out under extreme chaos situations with very high evaluation standards that are used within the United States for assessing proper use of force. I have found dealing with stress is far harder than the mechanical skills (or applying skills under stress).
One of the benefits of looking at LE for stress testing of techniques is that they do it a lot, and thus we get to see many failures. Many LE shooting failures can be addressed from the competition side. Lack of sight use and tracking, improper trigger press, poor grip, etc. Nobody in the competition side wants to mimic the techniques used by LE in failed shootings, yet it seems there is a desire to mimic the things that have caused catastrophe's in actual use. It is strange.

[Mr_White]

I always find it interesting that most agree that you likely will not be able to feel your reset point in an actual shooting and will likely be run on a point that we have imbedded in our brain from training. Yet, when we discuss when to place our finger on the trigger a bunch of folks think they'll be able to have a fine level of tactile ability to feel when they are touching the trigger....just a little bit.

I have investigated lots of cases with problems all the way through the process, and why I am a in the camp of wiring things into your sub conscious that is street workable, because that is my area of interest. If others want to wire a competition version of this in, live with the results if you ever try to work it in total chaos instead of how it is normally employed.

This seems to argue against any variety of press-out, and for a present-pause-press type of method.

[Chuck Haggard]

This seems to argue against any variety of press-out, and for a present-pause-press type of method.

Not if the decision to fire has clearly been made, lets say dude has pulled a gun and is obviously shooting at you, that's kind of a no-brainer.

[taadski]

This seems to argue against any variety of press-out, and for a present-pause-press type of method.

Agreed. My thoughts exactly.


Not if the decision to fire has clearly been made, lets say dude has pulled a gun and is obviously shooting at you, that's kind of a no-brainer.

It's a no-brainer but it still requires timing and tactile reference. The point (my point anyway :p) is that can ALL be made preconscious.

[Chuck Haggard]

It's a no-brainer but it still requires timing and tactile reference. The point (my point anyway :p) is that can ALL be made preconscious.

Agreed, IF one trains correctly.

[Chuck Haggard]

Borrowed from Karl Rehn from a FB post;


Back in USPSA RO school back in 1988 I was taught to watch for shooters who took the safety off or put finger on trigger before both hands were on the gun and the gun was pointed in a safe direction, as both were considered unacceptable behaviors. I taught a short course for experienced competitors a few months ago, and several of the shooters in that class were guilty of one or both of those problems, plus waving their support hand around chasing the gun trying to grip it as the gun was rocketing toward the target. Apparently those were behaviors that had gone un-noticed and uncorrected by local ROs guilty of some combination of ignorance and apathy. Or maybe "anything goes" is the new USPSA standard and I didn't get the memo.

[taadski]

Taadski, I wanted to address this from the other thread as I just have no interest in sport shooting safety issues.

Cool. It seems like we're having the same (or very similar) discussions in two places now. Not sure why it was split.



Here is the issue I have with what is a generally good observation. While there is the benefit of seeing pure mechanical and technical capability, and there are some BTDT folks who have high capabilities, we really don't have the opportunity to see how those capabilities play out under extreme chaos situations with very high evaluation standards that are used within the United States for assessing proper use of force. I have found dealing with stress is far harder than the mechanical skills (or applying skills under stress).

Absolutely. And I'd never argue that having great mechanics/technique is an end all for someone carrying a gun into harms way. I think that it's absolutely advisable to have a good RBT/simmunitions/stress inoculation training regiment in place too.


One of the benefits of looking at LE for stress testing of techniques is that they do it a lot, and thus we get to see many failures. Many LE shooting failures can be addressed from the competition side. Lack of sight use and tracking, improper trigger press, poor grip, etc. Nobody in the competition side wants to mimic the techniques used by LE in failed shootings, yet it seems there is a desire to mimic the things that have caused catastrophe's in actual use. It is strange.

Perhaps I'm not following you, D, but I think folks that are successful in competition learn "good sight use and tracking, [proper] trigger press, [good] grip, etc.." and learn to implement these things in a predominantly preconscious fashion. Potentially giving the brain all the more ability to evaluate changing conditions in the environment. I don't think these elements are responsible for "catastrophes in actual use", but perhaps exactly the opposite. I think one of the things that's overlooked is how much vision/attention/awareness growth there is at higher development levels of shooting. Growth that I believe can be of considerable benefit in the high stress environment.


t

[Dagga Boy]

Perhaps I'm not following you, D, but I think folks that are successful in competition learn "good sight use and tracking, [proper] trigger press, [good] grip, etc.." and learn to implement these things in a predominantly preconscious fashion. Potentially giving the brain all the more ability to evaluate changing conditions in the environment. I don't think these elements are responsible for "catastrophes in actual use", but perhaps exactly the opposite. I think one of the things that's overlooked is how much vision/attention/awareness growth there is at higher development levels of shooting. Growth that I believe can be of considerable benefit in the high stress environment.


t

My point is that if we are making trigger press, sights, tracking, follow through, etc. a sub conscious thing that will help us, do we not think that when we habitually get on the trigger under stress (match, timer, etc) during training will not also return? if folks are running with a finger pinned to the front of a trigger guard, fingers in the guard at the earliest possible time, just touching the face of the trigger, or staging the trigger to break at just the right time.....won't that also be back as a subconscious act? As Pat Rogers says.."Practice is permanent". My question is what do we want permanent.

I personally do not like starting a press on the press out presentation early as much as I don't like staging triggers on the way up from other draws. I have just seen so many situations change on the time warp of doing this for real. My example of the mom tackling the kid with the knife...mom would have been dead with a staged press. On the street I tended to go with a visual confirmation and track before really getting into a press. Not really the fast way to go, but kept me out of several shootings, and successful when I had to.

[Mr_White]

Not if the decision to fire has clearly been made, lets say dude has pulled a gun and is obviously shooting at you, that's kind of a no-brainer.

I didn't mean the decisionmaking part, I meant that I was reading nyeti to be saying that he didn't think people would exert enough control in getting on the trigger to just get the finger in position on the trigger but not press until the gun stopped, or to get on the trigger and press it with the control needed to aggressively work the trigger during a presentation like in a press-out, so based on what he was saying, present-pause-press would be the way to go. Sorry if I wasn't clear - and hopefully I didn't misread nyeti either.

[taadski]

My point is that if we are making trigger press, sights, tracking, follow through, etc. a sub conscious thing that will help us, do we not think that when we habitually get on the trigger under stress (match, timer, etc) during training will not also return? if folks are running with a finger pinned to the front of a trigger guard, fingers in the guard at the earliest possible time, just touching the face of the trigger, or staging the trigger to break at just the right time.....won't that also be back as a subconscious act? As Pat Rogers says.."Practice is permanent". My question is what do we want permanent.

I personally do not like starting a press on the press out presentation early as much as I don't like staging triggers on the way up from other draws. I have just seen so many situations change on the time warp of doing this for real. My example of the mom tackling the kid with the knife...mom would have been dead with a staged press. On the street I tended to go with a visual confirmation and track before really getting into a press. Not really the fast way to go, but kept me out of several shootings, and successful when I had to.


I realized what you meant after I posted, but thanks for clarifying. We agree, I think. :p I'm also not a fan of prepping during a draw or before the decision to shoot/'gun on target' (or very close) bit has been satisfied. I think we're all guilty of getting on the trigger earlier than we think and things can get hinky even more under stress if we're not careful. My standard has evolved into an extension and then a fast row through the trigger as I see what I need to. And this is despite shooting a DA/SA pistol pretty much exclusively.


t

[breakingtime91]

Anyone else ever seen bad trigger saftey control (sorry that sounds so stupid) in a shooting/situation before? I think it will be interesting to get some first hand stuff mixed in for examples. Nyeti has provided some good ones and I witnessed a situation that almost ended really badly but I don't have the time/keyboard to type it right now.

[JustOneGun]

I think one thing that is overlooked by people who knowingly get on the trigger too soon isn't just the safety aspect, but for many people once the slack/prep is coming out of that trigger it is almost impossible to stop the press. So even if they wait until the appropriate time to fire, if something changes it will be almost impossible to stop. I'm not saying it can't be done but the few times I've seen that kind of control it's been almost a genetic thing and not an ability that is trained. i.e. I've seen retard shooters who could just stop on command.

While in Nyeti's example the mom certainly could have walked in front of his muzzle as he was firing, placing the trigger prep/press at or towards the end of the draw limit's the amount of time for that dynamic to happen. So getting on the trigger sooner, even during a press out situation could make stopping impossible or more difficult. Thus using Nyeti's example making the trigger press take longer from start to finish might not be all that good in a dynamic situation, whether it's a press out or just using bad safety trigger control.

[Dagga Boy]

My "loving mother" incident is a perfect example of why I love the LEM. It is by far the easiest trigger I have found to get off of with the movement needed to really tell the brain..."your pressing the trigger...you sure you want to do that?"

The worse incidents are the overloads, startles, and loss of balance ones. Those tend to go very bad. I have seen bad, Wayne was almost killed by one, and the worse I have ever heard was the pregnant woman shot in the stomach when an officers elbow was hit with a door being opened. In a case I investigated an officer fired a round through the back window of a small honda with six teenage girls in it at the termination of a high speed pursuit when he keyed his radio with his left hand and the Sig P-220 in his right "just went off". Thankfully, this car full of what could be anybody's dumb teenage girl all walked away without injury....for no reason other than dumb luck.

So, if Facebook thinks I am an asshole for not wanting to see someone who is likely not the operator of the firearm get hurt because of getting on a trigger early, then I am glad I don't have a Facebook account. Oh yeah, just to be fair, I know of exactly one case at my old place where pure speed was what won the fight. That was a literal old West style man on man encounter in the middle of Main Street. Guy who won was using a .45 Colt revolver out of my old "competition duty holster". One out of hundreds....but I wanted to at least mention that there was one. Most fights were won with better tactics and solid shooting fundamentals.

[breakingtime91]

My "loving mother" incident is a perfect example of why I love the LEM. It is by far the easiest trigger I have found to get off of with the movement needed to really tell the brain..."your pressing the trigger...you sure you want to do that?"

The worse incidents are the overloads, startles, and loss of balance ones. Those tend to go very bad. I have seen bad, Wayne was almost killed by one, and the worse I have ever heard was the pregnant woman shot in the stomach when an officers elbow was hit with a door being opened. In a case I investigated an officer fired a round through the back window of a small honda with six teenage girls in it at the termination of a high speed pursuit when he keyed his radio with his left hand and the Sig P-220 in his right "just went off". Thankfully, this car full of what could be anybody's dumb teenage girl all walked away without injury....for no reason other than dumb luck.

So, if Facebook thinks I am an asshole for not wanting to see someone who is likely not the operator of the firearm get hurt because of getting on a trigger early, then I am glad I don't have a Facebook account. Oh yeah, just to be fair, I know of exactly one case at my old place where pure speed was what won the fight. That was a literal old West style man on man encounter in the middle of Main Street. Guy who won was using a .45 Colt revolver out of my old "competition duty holster". One out of hundreds....but I wanted to at least mention that there was one. Most fights were won with better tactics and solid shooting fundamentals.

People doubt experience because it makes them feel inadequate. they can kitten off

[MDS]

nyeti, your posts in this thread bring up a question. I can really appreciate what you say here about outrunning your headlights, and I'm looking into ways to incorporate some of that into practice. But my question is, how much leeway, in your opinion, should a dedicated amateur give themselves in terms of building skills that allow them to run the gun faster? I understand that running the gun faster isn't usually what wins a fight for cops on the street. But a) the civvie situation is different than cops, and b) there's no denying that it's just plain fun to practice and learn to run the gun fast. So my question is, for a civvie who shoots every week or three and who dry fires a few times per week for 10 minutes or so, is there a way to approach training so it's compatible with your "decision-making speed is the limiting factor" approach, but that allow them to chase pure shooting performance as well? If I just "handicap" myself by exercising no-compromise finger and muzzle discipline, that's enough for a while to reach a certain level, but is there a way to really become competitive in the game without sacrificing the habits that help avoid catastrophe on the street?

[GJM]

I think it would be fun to have a Rangemaster conference stage, where slo mo video is made of each contestant drawing. Any guesses as to what percentage of the participants would be filmed on the trigger earlier than they thought they were? Think Pat M thought he was on as early as he was in that photo sequence?

[Dagga Boy]

I think it would be fun to have a Rangemaster conference stage, where slo mo video is made of each contestant drawing. Any guesses as to what percentage of the participants would be filmed on the trigger earlier than they thought they were? Think Pat M thought he was on as early as he was in that photo sequence?

Many of us, myself included, are mortified when we see what we do when the clock is on. He first match I shot last year I caught myself very early on the trigger. That is with a revolver and I wasn't even pressing the trigger, just staging my finger. I am at a place in life where I am aware of this stuff, and hyper-sensitive to what is becoming habits. Most don't care or are not concerned, as they will surely be able to do something else under the stress of a fight. I am not that good, or not confident enough to depend on my abilities to switch from sport mode to street mode. I have made a choice to be very conscious of this in matches and live with a little bit slower times.

This, like many things in life comes down to choices. Choose how you train, live with the results. The reason we use specific commands on the range and often do not draw to a shot and every drill is not a shoot. It is where we find tons of trigger violators. This and "Woobie" love on the trigger when simply getting ready to shoot. The reason I train with a partner is to check each other. It simply comes down to choosing what matters. You want to be faster by a little bit, or build in some fail safe's to counter unexpected situations and events. Pick one and move on based on your goals.

[taadski]

That's most likely my fault. A few days ago I encouraged people to start another thread outside of the competition section as it looked like that one was going to be a total loss.

Thanks Tom. Was just wondering.

[Trooper224]

After reading a plethora of threads on various fora I've formed the opinion that as a collective, we're far too concerned with speed over everything else. If you're a gamer then rock on, but in any other application that's a very dangerous attitude.

[cclaxton]

Most fights were won with better tactics and solid shooting fundamentals.
Darryl, Another gem.
Cody

[JAD]

. The reason I train with a partner is to check each other.

One thing this forum really brought home to me is that the timer is a form of accountability that I benefit from in practice. The quote above reminds me that a form of accountability that can raise practice to the level of training is a partner. I need to work harder to bring that into my shooting work.

[Dagga Boy]

After reading a plethora of threads on various fora I've formed the opinion that as a collective, we're far too concerned with speed over everything else. If you're a gamer then rock on, but in any other application that's a very dangerous attitude.

Another Pat Rogers quote.."we have all worshipped at the altar of speed". It is one of my favorites, as it describes a path we all go down. Some folks never pass that stage. I have found that those who pass the speed stage tend to be the ones in certain career paths where they see the results of what happens when mistakes get made from pushing the accelerator when a little brake is in order.

Police pursuits tend to have a lot of similarities to shooting stuff. I tended to be "hyper aggressive" on my pursuit tactics as far as trying to put the crooks license plate between my push bars. I liked being really close and push the crook hard. The key to doing this was that I had to drive better and know my limitations. I had to know when to hit the brakes when we were not going to make a turn or obstacle. It is sort of the difference between many racing venues where winning can come from slamming hard on the brakes while watching the crook eat a tree. Equally, every second that pursuit went on is a huge danger to the public. I also had to know when to hit the brakes or change what I was doing if I was in danger of me being the one who may hurt somebody other than the crook. This stuff is all a balance and I guess many folks miss the part where what we do on the street or in our homes is mostly decision making and it is critical that we are not putting things in our sub-conscious stuff that should be conscious decisions (like some muzzle and trigger finger actions).

[Dagga Boy]

Darryl, Another gem.
Cody

Cody, it is why I look at sport shooting like running, weight lifting, cycling, martial arts or anything else that can help us be better at "performance" in a fight, but not a replacement for the tactics/gun handling portion and mindset leg of the Combat Triad.

[Trooper224]

Another Pat Rogers quote.."we have all worshipped at the altar of speed". It is one of my favorites, as it describes a path we all go down. Some folks never pass that stage. I have found that those who pass the speed stage tend to be the ones in certain career paths where they see the results of what happens when mistakes get made from pushing the accelerator when a little brake is in order.

Police pursuits tend to have a lot of similarities to shooting stuff. I tended to be "hyper aggressive" on my pursuit tactics as far as trying to put the crooks license plate between my push bars. I liked being really close and push the crook hard. The key to doing this was that I had to drive better and know my limitations. I had to know when to hit the brakes when we were not going to make a turn or obstacle. It is sort of the difference between many racing venues where winning can come from slamming hard on the brakes while watching the crook eat a tree. Equally, every second that pursuit went on is a huge danger to the public. I also had to know when to hit the brakes or change what I was doing if I was in danger of me being the one who may hurt somebody other than the crook. This stuff is all a balance and I guess many folks miss the part where what we do on the street or in our homes is mostly decision making and it is critical that we are not putting things in our sub-conscious stuff that should be conscious decisions (like some muzzle and trigger finger actions).

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQoE687OC-awyfF1Nh9F9MLAPQcuNBXx-xRFKGnO9CLszftPhtK

[Wayne Dobbs]

Darryl,

It all comes back to the triad, clean lines and staying cognitive.

[Mr_White]

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7661/17066384281_fbaf36eb6a_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/s16FsR)00001 (https://flic.kr/p/s16FsR) by OrigamiAK (https://www.flickr.com/people/52790396@N08/), on Flickr

I think this is too early. What do you guys think?

[Redhat]

...The reason we use specific commands on the range and often do not draw to a shot and every drill is not a shoot. It is where we find tons of trigger violators. This and "Woobie" love on the trigger when simply getting ready to shoot. The reason I train with a partner is to check each other. It simply comes down to choosing what matters. You want to be faster by a little bit, or build in some fail safe's to counter unexpected situations and events.

Out of this whole conversation...these are the "Gold Nuggets" for me...and something I think doesn't get anywhere near enough emphasis...Thanks!!!

[jbg270]

Darryl,

It all comes back to the triad, clean lines and staying cognitive.

Wayne, could you please explain "clean lines"?

[breakingtime91]

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7661/17066384281_fbaf36eb6a_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/s16FsR)00001 (https://flic.kr/p/s16FsR) by OrigamiAK (https://www.flickr.com/people/52790396@N08/), on Flickr

I think this is too early. What do you guys think?

Yesm.

[Mr_White]

This, like many things in life comes down to choices. Choose how you train, live with the results. The reason we use specific commands on the range and often do not draw to a shot and every drill is not a shoot. It is where we find tons of trigger violators. This and "Woobie" love on the trigger when simply getting ready to shoot. The reason I train with a partner is to check each other. It simply comes down to choosing what matters. You want to be faster by a little bit, or build in some fail safe's to counter unexpected situations and events. Pick one and move on based on your goals.

Here's the thing though: You don't have to pick one. Being very skilled and fast are not at odds with the gunhandling that you emphasize. I've been doing all those things you mention with my students for a long time. And pushing their technical skills too.

[Redhat]

Here's the thing though: You don't have to pick one. Being very skilled and fast are not at odds with the gunhandling that you emphasize. I've been doing all those things you mention with my students for a long time. And pushing their technical skills too.

Sounds great...what's your method? Thanks

[orionz06]

Here's the thing though: You don't have to pick one. Being very skilled and fast are not at odds with the gunhandling that you emphasize. I've been doing all those things you mention with my students for a long time. And pushing their technical skills too.

Would you say your teaching methods and material is vastly different than the brunt of the stuff out there these days or just slight changes?

[Wayne Dobbs]

Wayne, could you please explain "clean lines"?

Clean lines means no wasted movement or motion. It means moving the gun (or support equipment) in as straight a line as possible during manipulations. It means keeping trigger fingers in register until all three requirements of Rule 3 are met. It means not muscling, jamming or forcing the gun in an effort to be fast. It adds up to efficiency, safety and really usable and beneficial speed during the use of your weapons.

[Wayne Dobbs]

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7661/17066384281_fbaf36eb6a_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/s16FsR)00001 (https://flic.kr/p/s16FsR) by OrigamiAK (https://www.flickr.com/people/52790396@N08/), on Flickr

I think this is too early. What do you guys think?

That's an ND looking for a time and place to happen. It's one of those shots by (or in) the strong foot in an encounter...

[Dagga Boy]

Here's the thing though: You don't have to pick one. Being very skilled and fast are not at odds with the gunhandling that you emphasize. I've been doing all those things you mention with my students for a long time. And pushing their technical skills too.

I sort of agree. Skilled and fast are not at odds. So we agree. At a certain point, the best folks in the world at working against a timer seem to need to get on the trigger as the muzzle clears the holster. In several venues it is what is required to be competitive and to break certain time standards. If that is the venue you want to excel in, no problem. The choice comes when it comes to picking what you are most interested in. I didn't make this up, it is what is coming from the technical masters of a variety of shooting sports. Those of us from the purely defensive side of the fence have seen tons of failures related to this practice, so we try to train around that for our venue. Simple. When it gets complicated is when we are mixing two very different things. Much of that difference is due to what is going on right before the draw commences, and what is taking up he brains priorities when task stacking.

[cclaxton]

http://www.odmp.org/officer/22457-police-officer-jared-forsyth
Somebody didn't follow the four rules.
RIP
Cody

[jbg270]

Clean lines means no wasted movement or motion. It means moving the gun (or support equipment) in as straight a line as possible during manipulations. It means keeping trigger fingers in register until all three requirements of Rule 3 are met. It means not muscling, jamming or forcing the gun in an effort to be fast. It adds up to efficiency, safety and really usable and beneficial speed during the use of your weapons.

Thanks!

[Dagga Boy]

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7661/17066384281_fbaf36eb6a_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/s16FsR)00001 (https://flic.kr/p/s16FsR) by OrigamiAK (https://www.flickr.com/people/52790396@N08/), on Flickr

I think this is too early. What do you guys think?

Depends......what is the goal? What is the venue? My world, too early. Other places.....perfect (and that was not being a smart ass, just so it doesn't get taken wrong on Facebook). Simply a choice.

[Dagga Boy]

Wayne, could you please explain "clean lines"?

Here is a photo of a guy who is my "clean lines" mentor. I have talked to a witness to one of his many shootings who was flat awed by his level of efficiency at shooting a felon from the preparation for the raid in the back of a vehicle to post shooting. It is what we strive for.

[Wayne Dobbs]

That's an ND looking for a time and place to happen. It's one of those shots by (or in) the strong foot in an encounter...

And Mr. White, you have now proven what happens when you make speed or timers your main goal!

[Mr_White]

Sounds great...what's your method? Thanks


Would you say your teaching methods and material is vastly different than the brunt of the stuff out there these days or just slight changes?

Not sure I could really say what all is out there, but there are some things that we have done for a long time, that are many of the same things nyeti quite rightly talks about, just with what I think is an additional emphasis on technical skills. I am quite certain that at least some other people know about this. How widespread it is I could not say. But in my view (and I think I am agreeing with nyeti on this point) it is absolutely critical that the students understand and train in accordance with this stuff, or else they are at an increased risk of NDs and/or not acting as effectively as they could be.

It starts with a definition of when to put finger on the trigger - when muzzle is aligned, and a conscious decision to fire has been made. I also liked Chuck Haggard's recent phrasing of it ("keep the trigger finger at a point of positive reference until the decision to fire is made AND you are moving the gun into position to shoot.")

It takes extremely persistent enforcement in class. Big emphasis on this at the beginning of a person's training pays a lot of dividends down the line as things become more complex and technical skills get pushed.

The students need to grasp this essential concept: before you can shoot, you have to decide to shoot. Before you can decide to shoot, you need to see something that tells you it is time to shoot. This requires unobstructed vision. Unobstructed vision partly dictates ready positions. The time to present from a ready position or the holster allows the finger to be in register until the gun is actually being presented with a decision to fire having already been made. That way neither safety nor time are left on the table. This orderly process is the bridge from correct evaluation and decisionmaking to efficient action.

Just as nyeti said, not every presentation leads to a shot. Students draw to a vision-unobstructed ready position with finger in register, intermixed with draws to a shot. They draw to ready and give verbal commands. They acquire master grip and verbalize but don't draw. They put their hands out in the universal sign for 'stay back' and verbalize, but don't touch the gun. Then sometimes they draw from there. They shoot, then reload and shoot, and sometimes they shoot, then reload and come to ready and verbalize, or clear a malfunction and come to ready and verbalize. Sometimes they begin a trigger press, then stop pressing the trigger as if the situation has changed and they no longer wish to fire and then come to ready and verbalize, or move to improve a shot angle and then resume firing. Lots of possibilities there, those are just some of the big ones.

You can do all of the above, and also work on speed of presentation from ready and holster, and accuracy at speed in shooting. That's where you want to be - a very clean and correct tactical process, coupled with physical efficiency in gunhandling and shooting. You can follow that process and still make sub .5 second hits to A-zones at 7 yards from the ready, and 1.5 second hits from the concealed holster.

I strongly suspect that a lack of familiarity and deep confidence in the ability to quickly and accurately present from a ready position drives many people to prematurely get their finger on the trigger (gaining nothing, but radically increasing risk of ND) and/or obstruct their vision by getting on sights before the decision to fire has been made (ironically likely to slow their overall engagement process.) I believe lack of confidence in a clean ready position engagement process is one of the roots of trigger checking.

All that takes a lot of work over time on the part of instructors and students, but it is doable.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Masterfully written...

[Chuck Haggard]

Not sure I could really say what all is out there, but there are some things that we have done for a long time, that are many of the same things nyeti quite rightly talks about, just with what I think is an additional emphasis on technical skills. I am quite certain that at least some other people know about this. How widespread it is I could not say. But in my view (and I think I am agreeing with nyeti on this point) it is absolutely critical that the students understand and train in accordance with this stuff, or else they are at an increased risk of NDs and/or not acting as effectively as they could be.

It starts with a definition of when to put finger on the trigger - when muzzle is aligned, and a conscious decision to fire has been made. I also liked Chuck Haggard's recent phrasing of it ("keep the trigger finger at a point of positive reference until the decision to fire is made AND you are moving the gun into position to shoot.")

It takes extremely persistent enforcement in class. Big emphasis on this at the beginning of a person's training pays a lot of dividends down the line as things become more complex and technical skills get pushed.

The students need to grasp this essential concept: before you can shoot, you have to decide to shoot. Before you can decide to shoot, you need to see something that tells you it is time to shoot. This requires unobstructed vision. Unobstructed vision partly dictates ready positions. The time to present from a ready position or the holster allows the finger to be in register until the gun is actually being presented with a decision to fire having already been made. That way neither safety nor time are left on the table. This orderly process is the bridge from correct evaluation and decisionmaking to efficient action.

Just as nyeti said, not every presentation leads to a shot. Students draw to a vision-unobstructed ready position with finger in register, intermixed with draws to a shot. They draw to ready and give verbal commands. They acquire master grip and verbalize but don't draw. They put their hands out in the universal sign for 'stay back' and verbalize, but don't touch the gun. Then sometimes they draw from there. They shoot, then reload and shoot, and sometimes they shoot, then reload and come to ready and verbalize, or clear a malfunction and come to ready and verbalize. Sometimes they begin a trigger press, then stop pressing the trigger as if the situation has changed and they no longer wish to fire and then come to ready and verbalize, or move to improve a shot angle and then resume firing. Lots of possibilities there, those are just some of the big ones.

You can do all of the above, and also work on speed of presentation from ready and holster, and accuracy at speed in shooting. That's where you want to be - a very clean and correct tactical process, coupled with physical efficiency in gunhandling and shooting. You can follow that process and still make sub .5 second hits to A-zones at 7 yards from the ready, and 1.5 second hits from the concealed holster.

I strongly suspect that a lack of familiarity and deep confidence in the ability to quickly and accurately present from a ready position drives many people to prematurely get their finger on the trigger (gaining nothing, but radically increasing risk of ND) and/or obstruct their vision by getting on sights before the decision to fire has been made (ironically likely to slow their overall engagement process.) I believe lack of confidence in a clean ready position engagement process is one of the roots of trigger checking.

All that takes a lot of work over time on the part of instructors and students, but it is doable.

Well stated.

I agree with the training aspects, it takes work, and most people do not, in the words of Paul Sharp "Do the work".

It took me a couple of years to get the bad habits our troops had mostly trained out, and we had to work on those basics every time we trained. People who lack confidence will in fact try to cheat how they do things, which leads to all of those unfortunate bangs when they were in no way appropriate.

[Redhat]

Well stated.

I agree with the training aspects, it takes work, and most people do not, in the words of Paul Sharp "Do the work".

It took me a couple of years to get the bad habits our troops had mostly trained out, and we had to work on those basics every time we trained. People who lack confidence will in fact try to cheat how they do things, which leads to all of those unfortunate bangs when they were in no way appropriate.

Mr. White, thanks for taking the time to break it down a bit.

I also think that a lot of the "failings" have to do with available training time, lack of understanding, and emphasizing only time limits (drawing, shooting, hits on target) and not on this stuff. If a troop knows they MUST qualify then they may feel the need to cheat...IMO, this is why instructor led structured practice can pay off. If it's done with the goal of meeting the time limits AND doing things right, then qual time doesn't become a crisis situation because they've done it before many times in practice and have that confidence you mentioned.

[taadski]

Masterfully written...

QFT. Great post Gabe.

[GJM]

I strongly suspect that a lack of familiarity and deep confidence in the ability to quickly and accurately present from a ready position drives many people to prematurely get their finger on the trigger (gaining nothing, but radically increasing risk of ND) and/or obstruct their vision by getting on sights before the decision to fire has been made (ironically likely to slow their overall engagement process.) I believe lack of confidence in a clean ready position engagement process is one of the roots of trigger checking.

I think this point about lack of familiarity and confidence may play a big role in accidents.

A few years back, a BLM ranger made a contact with my wife and me while we were out shooting in the desert. (We had a big layout of multiple steel and paper targets, so it should have been reasonably obvious we were out practicing competitive shooting skills.) When the guy hopped out of his vehicle, he had the hammer cocked on his holstered DA/SA Sig 226, in of all things a Serpa holster. When I questioned him as to why the hammer was back, after sending him back to safely decock his pistol before we spoke further, he admitted he was concerned by two armed people and not confident in his DA trigger press. Any guess what likely would have happened on the draw if he felt insecure enough to draw his pistol on us -- between the Serpa and expecting the 226 to be DA when it was in the SA position?

[Chuck Haggard]

I'd give a guy days off if I caught him doing something like that.

I used to catch people trying to game the qual, popping the retention on the holster early, not resecuring the holster after seating the gun, etc. No just no but fuck no, not on my range, and I publicly called people out in front of everyone on the line, they got the message quickly..

[Lomshek]

I'd give a guy days off if I caught him doing something like that.

I used to catch people trying to game the qual, popping the retention on the holster early, not resecuring the holster after seating the gun, etc. No just no but fuck no, not on my range, and I publicly called people out in front of everyone on the line, they got the message quickly..

Not too long ago a patrol deputy I vaguely knew stopped by my business (a non-LEO related visit) and as we were chatting I saw his SLS hood was flipped open. I'm guessing from some traffic stop earlier in the day and he forgot to re-lock the holster. I pointed it out and he was more than a little embarrassed. I'm sure he'd have loved to find that out as he chased someone and lost his gun. Unfortunately I've seen it before when I've been stopped "just in case" or do something similar as GJM points out due to lack of confidence in their ability to not screw up under pressure.

[Dagga Boy]

I am now going to be a dickhead......you knew it was coming;). How much time should we find acceptable to do this "right" versus "right". Go back and look at post 75. One is wrong while one is right. So when is wrong right or right wrong?

[JustOneGun]

I haven't had my morning coffee. You are making my little pea brain hurt with all the right stuff. :confused: I guess it's until they shoot themselves or someone else? Then will they do as you say and take ownership of the screw up or make a painful excuse.

[GJM]

I think we have established, looking at various pictures, that some gamers and tactical guys get on the trigger earlier than ideal. So let's go beyond saying "don't get on the trigger early," or "slow down," and discuss what techniques lend themselves to being on the trigger early versus later?

My view, is that the press out lends itself to getting on the trigger early, on a fast draw, because of how you work the trigger with the mechanics of the press out. I also think, that present/pause with a prep to the wall, on a shorter trigger like the Glock/VP9/1911, also lends itself to being on early. Not surprisingly, I think that getting the finger to just light contact, and then running it through in one motion, combined with a present/pause presentation, is most likely to both get your finger on the trigger at an appropriate time, and lead to good marksmanship results.

[Chuck Haggard]

I can agree with that George, assuming that the muzzle is where we need it to be,,,,, still clearing the holster? Not so much.

At the high 2 in a close range problem, or at the 3 as the hands close, then I see no safety issue AND I see no loss of speed, even going gamer fast/balls to the wall.

[JustOneGun]

I think we have established, looking at various pictures, that some gamers and tactical guys get on the trigger earlier than ideal. So let's go beyond saying "don't get on the trigger early," or "slow down," and discuss what techniques lend themselves to being on the trigger early versus later?

My view, is that the press out lends itself to getting on the trigger early, on a fast draw, because of how you work the trigger with the mechanics of the press out. I also think, that present/pause with a prep to the wall, on a shorter trigger like the Glock/VP9/1911, also lends itself to being on early. Not surprisingly, I think that getting the finger to just light contact, and then running it through in one motion, combined with a present/pause presentation, is most likely to both get your finger on the trigger at an appropriate time, and lead to good marksmanship results.

Can training and practice change when we decide to put the finger on the trigger no matter the type of draw?
Do you believe getting on the trigger early in the press out might lead a person who is under extreme stress to continue the press no matter what or do you believe they can just stop the press in the middle?
Can the lightly touching the trigger for a greater amount of time lend itself to a greater possibility of a discharge due to balance disruption, sympathetic reflex?
Can running the trigger all the way through work well for all levels of students, such as newer student or will the wall in say the glock trigger cause problems due to immature or undeveloped grip?
Is there a better way to do it depending on where the student is in training? If so how can we maximize that training throughout the students practice life by using one way to learn it up front?

[JHC]

I think we have established, looking at various pictures, that some gamers and tactical guys get on the trigger earlier than ideal. So let's go beyond saying "don't get on the trigger early," or "slow down," and discuss what techniques lend themselves to being on the trigger early versus later?

My view, is that the press out lends itself to getting on the trigger early, on a fast draw, because of how you work the trigger with the mechanics of the press out. I also think, that present/pause with a prep to the wall, on a shorter trigger like the Glock/VP9/1911, also lends itself to being on early. Not surprisingly, I think that getting the finger to just light contact, and then running it through in one motion, combined with a present/pause presentation, is most likely to both get your finger on the trigger at an appropriate time, and lead to good marksmanship results.

Is early in this context just in the trigger guard? In the trigger guard with "light contact" or actually pressing the trigger towards the break of the shot?

I'm wondering if we are of the mind that when drawing to shoot (vs drawing to maybe decide to shoot) in position 3 of the pressout or out in front of the chest in the Index (riding up the escalator as Proctor called it a couple years back) then that is NOT "early" to be in the trigger guard and maybe light contact - or I may be missing the point right?

Or is early in your question's set up - immediately out of the holster?

[Mr_White]

"Getting on the trigger" may not ultimately be a precise enough term in a certain aspect of this discussion. There are several points that may be worth looking at - when the finger is in register, when the finger leaves register, when the finger enters the trigger guard, when the finger is positioned in front of trigger so it can be pressed, when the finger is actively manipulating the trigger, and when the shot is actually fired. Each of those steps takes time, though the time frames involved are short and might in some cases require high speed video or good quality photography to discern.

IMHO, the only position out of those that strongly mitigates NDs is having the finger in register, so this is not at all to say there is a safe place to park the finger other than register when not actively trying to engage as soon as practical. With a draw to a shot on a wide open target where the decision to fire has already been made, all those small steps are running concurrently with getting the gun into position to shoot. That may be ok and simply amount to getting the gun into position and firing as soon as we can once it's there - which is what all or most of us factually do.

Like I suspect a bunch of us are doing, I've been prompted by these threads to take another look at what I am doing and when. Video isn't telling me a whole lot because the frame rate is too low (though Clusterfrack did lend me a high speed camera, so hopefully I will have a clear view of everything in the next couple of weeks.) I can see that I start out with a proper register when the gun leaves the holster, but I can't see exactly when my finger leaves register, gets into the trigger guard, or starts actively pressing the trigger.

Introspection during practice tells me that my finger is leaving register soon after the gun clears the holster and begins rotating forward, is entering the trigger guard close to when the hands join, and is getting in front of the trigger and actively manipulating it after that, depending on the target. On a really hard shot, that's resting in front of the trigger without active manipulation until the gun is stopped. On an easy shot where it's sufficient to use a coarser aiming reference and fire before the gun settles out of motion, that's running the trigger straight back as I extend the gun.

After I get the high speed video, I may well join the club of people who find themselves saying one thing but doing another. Or maybe my self-perception is accurate. That's ok, that is a check that should be made. We'll see.

I did a little rough math trying to understand how these subtleties might fit together for me. Recently Clobbersaurus asked how long it takes me to get master grip established. High speed video will probably refine this, but the best answer I could come up with was about 0.36 seconds. I can draw and fire a full speed shot to an easy target in about 0.70. That leaves about 0.34 seconds from the time master grip is established until the gun is decelerating at full extension and the shot is fired. It would not at all surprise me to see the high speed video breakdown showing it taking most of that 0.34 seconds to remove my finger from register, get it into the trigger guard, onto the trigger, and press the trigger and fire the gun.

Another reference that just came to mind is presenting from threat ready (similar to low ready, but with the muzzle only lowered enough to see hands, so let's say muzzle a little below waistline for the sake of discussion.) The fastest shot I've fired from there was at 0.24. Mostly, I am in the .3x range. Subjectively, that feels like I am going from register to the full trigger press as fast as I can move my finger, and in conjunction with getting the gun on target. So I guardedly think that it does take me approximately .25 to .35 seconds to get my finger out of register and fully press the trigger, which fits into what I think my draw breakdown might be.


I am now going to be a dickhead......you knew it was coming;). How much time should we find acceptable to do this "right" versus "right". Go back and look at post 75. One is wrong while one is right. So when is wrong right or right wrong?

nyeti, regarding post 75: I'm not sure I follow exactly what you are saying there...but to try to answer...I know the circumstances in terms of target and distance in the picture I posted, and I do believe that finger is too early. I don't know the circumstances in terms of target and distance in the picture you posted of Robert Vogel. Very charitably speaking, I'd like to know what Vogel is about to engage. Given everything I said above, I do wonder if the target is extremely close and he is about to fire from a #3 or similar position. IF that is the case, I'd 'consider reconsidering' my immediate reaction to the Vogel photo, which is that Vogel is committing the same error as in the picture I posted. Looks like the same error to me - early finger - I'd just like to know the target/distance/manner of engagement on the Vogel picture so I could feel like my judgement is entirely fair and I'm not missing something.

[Dagga Boy]

My point is that the shooter in picture #2 is considered the goal. Very consistent draws to good shots in under a second I would assume be normal. The guy in picture #1 is considered to be wrong and too early. I am trying to figure out why. Many in folks in the defensive shooting world are derided as slow with a 1.5 draw and shot. That may be a shooter who is exercising very good trigger finger discipline on their presentation and maybe being a little more careful with their visual verification before getting on the trigger. Another shooter is running at a second and is considered fast and looked up to. Finger is in early, press is starting enroute to the target and is perfectly timed to hit right at extension. What should the slower shooter do to improve? Do we teach them to get on early? Start pressing earlier? Not worry so much about solid verification of sights?
Is this dependent on who is doing it. Are only some people professional enough to use a certain draw? Should you only be using a draw with a finger in early if you have a competition pistol with a light trigger? Is it only important to have a fast draw if you are working in a controlled artificial environment with non-human targets, but not when working against a "potential" bad guy? Do we have a ranking system where if you have a way to dress when you shoot then you have different rules or standards of what safety rules apply. The only difference in the pictures in post #75 is what the shooters are wearing.

I am simply having an issue with the shooter with a solid 1.5 second draw that does not violate any of the Modern Technique defined safety rules is a derp/newbie/slow/pathetic, but the guy who is at a solid consistent 1 second draw is a master at what they are doing with no application of any safeguards other than their individual skill at managing a trigger that is measured best in ounces is the goal at what we are trying to attain.

[orionz06]

Who said getting a sub second draw with the finger on the trigger early was the goal?

[Glenn E. Meyer]

http://www.policeone.com/Officer-Safety/articles/8519025-How-much-do-finger-placement-and-ready-position-matter/?utm_source=8517842&utm_medium=email&utm_content=OriginalVideoMore&utm_campaign=P1Member&nlid=8517842

Trigger finder performance study.

[Dagga Boy]

Who said getting a sub second draw with the finger on the trigger early was the goal?

Don't we look at the techniques used by world class shooters as the goal/correct/best/most efficient way to do things?

[orionz06]

Don't we look at the techniques used by world class shooters as the goal/correct/best/most efficient way to do things?

Wholesale? Nope.

[SLG]

Don't we look at the techniques used by world class shooters as the goal/correct/best/most efficient way to do things?

I've stayed out of this, and likely will mostly stay out of it, but I felt the need to jump in here. Some high level competition shooters have excellent technique that translates to the tactical world. Many do not. This is also true of the tactical guys. You have to be very choosy when deciding which "world class" shooter you want to emulate. Competition is good for some things, not good for others.

I would also add that a 1.5 second draw from a duty holster or concealed to an appropriately realistic target, is not what I would consider slow or newbie. It will not put you very high in the competition world, but it is still a respectable standard for most shooters in most situations. A 10 sec. clean el prez is not fast today, but is still a VERY respectable standard for a professional or amateur gunman.

I would not consider myself a competition shooter, but I have competed and done reasonably well when compared to the best in the world. All with real wold gear. My standard for when to put the finger on the trigger is: A) you have decided you need to shoot NOW, and B) your muzzle is pointed at the target. If those two requirements are met, you are not early. You are not late. You are on time.

I have also stopped in the middle of a pressout, on several people, and not shot them as a result. No issue there at all. I might go so far as to say that if you cannot stop your trigger press, you are more switched off than you would like to think. I'm not sure I'd go that far, but it is a thought.

[Jared]

I've stayed out of this, and likely will mostly stay out of it, but I felt the need to jump in here. Some high level competition shooters have excellent technique that translates to the tactical world. Many do not. This is also true of the tactical guys. You have to be very choosy when deciding which "world class" shooter you want to emulate. Competition is good for some things, not good for others.

I would also add that a 1.5 second draw from a duty holster or concealed to an appropriately realistic target, is not what I would consider slow or newbie. It will not put you very high in the competition world, but it is still a respectable standard for most shooters in most situations. A 10 sec. clean el prez is not fast today, but is still a VERY respectable standard for a professional or amateur gunman.

I would not consider myself a competition shooter, but I have competed and done reasonably well when compared to the best in the world. All with real wold gear. My standard for when to put the finger on the trigger is: A) you have decided you need to shoot NOW, and B) your muzzle is pointed at the target. If those two requirements are met, you are not early. You are not late. You are on time.

I have also stopped in the middle of a pressout, on several people, and not shot them as a result. No issue there at all. I might go so far as to say that if you cannot stop your trigger press, you are more switched off than you would like to think. I'm not sure I'd go that far, but it is a thought.

I really like this post.

[Dagga Boy]

I am trying to have an honest discussion. Do we have different standards for different people? Different standards for competition versus everyone else. Different for different kinds of competition. Different for different branches of the military or units in the law enforcement community. Should we have individual safety rules that is simply based on what you think you can handle?

My understanding is that I have been called out on a top level shooting guys Facebook page due to the idea that even though a shooter is not having any issues other than a finger in the trigger guard right off the holster as pictured in post 75, that I am some kind of idiot for having an issue with this. So, do I need to rethink what I am teaching? If I am wrong, how about the finger in the trigger guard when running, if it is off the trigger (and yes,i can post those pictures too). If it is okay on the draw, why not while moving if the muzzle is in a safe direction?

Note: Mods, if I am going down a road nobody wants to talk about, just PM me and I will stop.

[Mr_White]

My point is that the shooter in picture #2 is considered the goal.

According to whom? His general shooting ability, sure, I'd like to have that. Finger on trigger with the gun pointed straight down, no thank you.


The guy in picture #1 is considered to be wrong and too early. I am trying to figure out why.

The gun is pointed straight down. In my mind, that's why it's too early. You and others agreed that it was too early in earlier posts, so I assume you know your reasons for agreeing it was too early.


Many in folks in the defensive shooting world are derided as slow with a 1.5 draw and shot. That may be a shooter who is exercising very good trigger finger discipline on their presentation and maybe being a little more careful with their visual verification before getting on the trigger.

Frankly, I think 1.5 seconds to an A-zone hit at 7 yards from duty gear or concealment is good. It takes a bunch of work to get there. A 1.5 second time frame isn't required in order to have good trigger finger discipline and visual verification, though. It can be made a lot faster if a person wants to work for that, which is mostly going to be related to improving the draw itself, seeing better and faster, and working the trigger straight back quickly.


What should the slower shooter do to improve? Do we teach them to get on early? Start pressing earlier? Not worry so much about solid verification of sights?

To get better at drawing and firing an accurate and fast shot, the draw itself needs to be faster and more certain in all aspects (master grip, hands join, gun stopped smoothly, everything in between), visual awareness needs to be increased, and the trigger needs to be pulled straight back quickly.


Should you only be using a draw with a finger in early if you have a competition pistol with a light trigger?

What?


Do we have a ranking system where if you have a way to dress when you shoot then you have different rules or standards of what safety rules apply. The only difference in the pictures in post #75 is what the shooters are wearing.

I dress before I shoot. Dressing while I shoot sounds really difficult. I have tried to jump both legs into my pants before just to see if I could do it, and I couldn't. ;)

What ranking system? I'm not applying different standards to the two pictures in post 75. There are things I know about the first pic that I don't know about the second, and additional information about the second pic is unlikely to change my mind about it, but it's at least conceivable. Otherwise I thought I was clear that I think both are too early.


I am simply having an issue with the shooter with a solid 1.5 second draw that does not violate any of the Modern Technique defined safety rules is a derp/newbie/slow/pathetic, but the guy who is at a solid consistent 1 second draw is a master at what they are doing with no application of any safeguards other than their individual skill at managing a trigger that is measured best in ounces is the goal at what we are trying to attain.

I don't know who said a 1.5 draw is derp/newbie/slow/pathetic, but I certainly didn't say it, and I don't think it either. Are you arguing against Facebook again? I'm not on there, so I don't know what they are saying. If you are making a comparison between the two pics from post 75, then I think you can strike that part about the shooter in the first pic not violating any of the safety rules. Both pictures are, unless there is some revelation I am missing. Or maybe I am misreading you. Sometimes it is hard to be sure, so I hope I am not being nonresponsive to your point.

[orionz06]

How much of these arguments from a Facebook post none of the members here have seen?

[JHC]

Mr White
I thought the "dress to shoot" was in reference to selecting fast clothes. Sounds funny but it's real. I've done it. ;)

[JustOneGun]

My understanding is that I have been called out on a top level shooting guys Facebook page due to the idea that even though a shooter is not having any issues other than a finger in the trigger guard right off the holster as pictured in post 75, that I am some kind of idiot for having an issue with this. So, do I need to rethink what I am teaching? If I am wrong, how about the finger in the trigger guard when running, if it is off the trigger (and yes,i can post those pictures too). If it is okay on the draw, why not while moving if the muzzle is in a safe direction?

Note: Mods, if I am going down a road nobody wants to talk about, just PM me and I will stop.

I'm not much of a competition guy. But if I have taken the time to train, say a .7 second draw, it seems to me I can still move my finger faster than my arm? So at the very least could I train to start putting my competition finger into the trigger guard after it is no longer pointed at me as in the pic? Obviously I'm ignoring the whole self defense problems with this and just looking at competition.

I guess I'm coming from the position of, even if they disagree about the possible outcomes, why not delay placing the trigger finger on the trigger because it doesn't slow us down anyway? The extension of the arm takes longer than placing the finger on the trigger. We have nothing to loose by being extra safe. Is there some limit to how fast the finger can move in relation to the arm where a .7 second draw just can't be done that way? Perhaps I'm missing something because I was never that good.

[GJM]

My goal, and I believe my practice, based on looking at video, is to start my finger into the trigger guard as or after my hands come together, with a goal of the finger resting lightly on the face of the trigger as the pistol reaches extension. This assumes a regular two hand draw after the decision to shoot has been made, and a trigger system like the Glock. In my world, which is not LE, I have no reason to point guns at things I don't intend to shoot.

[orionz06]

In my world, which is not LE, I have no reason to point guns at things I don't intend to shoot.

Have you ruled out changing your mind based on the response to the presence of a gun?

[SLG]

I am trying to have an honest discussion. Do we have different standards for different people? Different standards for competition versus everyone else. Different for different kinds of competition. Different for different branches of the military or units in the law enforcement community. Should we have individual safety rules that is simply based on what you think you can handle?

My only honest answer is no. I have successfully taught non english speaking, third world country natives to shoot the way I do. They have then been successful in combat. One of them was also successful in a local competition.

You cannot expect beginners or non enthusiasts to shoot as well as we do, but if the techniques you teach them are solid, they will work, even when they screw them up to an extent. I have absolutely found this to be true of the press out, both with the non english speaking types, as well as with new U.S. cops/agents/soldiers.

[Dagga Boy]

How much of these arguments from a Facebook post none of the members here have seen?

Don't know. The post was taken from here, and at least one Mod replied. I haven't seen it myself as I don't Facebook, but I do trust the mod here.


I guess I'm coming from the position of, even if they disagree about the possible outcomes, why not delay placing the trigger finger on the trigger because it doesn't slow us down anyway? The extension of the arm takes longer than placing the finger on the trigger. We have nothing to loose by being extra safe. Is there some limit to how fast the finger can move in relation to the arm where a .7 second draw just can't be done that way? Perhaps I'm missing something because I was never that good.

I think it is likely faster and more efficient at some point or we wouldn't do it when put on a straight up competitive clock, and I highly doubt the best guys in the world would be doing it without some benefit. I see it as more of a cost vs. benefit issue, and what is our training mindset in this regard.


My goal, and I believe my practice, based on looking at video, is to start my finger into the trigger guard as or after my hands come together, with a goal of the finger resting lightly on the face of the trigger as the pistol reaches extension. This assumes a regular two hand draw after the decision to shoot has been made, and a trigger system like the Glock. In my world, which is not LE, I have no reason to point guns at things I don't intend to shoot.

This is where I try to be as well. It is always a battle.

[Surf]

I am another late comer to this thread and actually started a response and decided to analyze some of my own video. Thought I would make a few comments while while I am working on the video. I will complete the other post when it is done.


I've stayed out of this, and likely will mostly stay out of it, but I felt the need to jump in here. Some high level competition shooters have excellent technique that translates to the tactical world. Many do not. This is also true of the tactical guys. You have to be very choosy when deciding which "world class" shooter you want to emulate. Competition is good for some things, not good for others.

I would also add that a 1.5 second draw from a duty holster or concealed to an appropriately realistic target, is not what I would consider slow or newbie. It will not put you very high in the competition world, but it is still a respectable standard for most shooters in most situations. A 10 sec. clean el prez is not fast today, but is still a VERY respectable standard for a professional or amateur gunman.

I would not consider myself a competition shooter, but I have competed and done reasonably well when compared to the best in the world. All with real wold gear. My standard for when to put the finger on the trigger is: A) you have decided you need to shoot NOW, and B) your muzzle is pointed at the target. If those two requirements are met, you are not early. You are not late. You are on time.

I have also stopped in the middle of a pressout, on several people, and not shot them as a result. No issue there at all. I might go so far as to say that if you cannot stop your trigger press, you are more switched off than you would like to think. I'm not sure I'd go that far, but it is a thought.Agreed. I will add that I have also stopped the press on a few occasions while working. I will also agree that I think the more "switched on" the shooter and how quickly they process information and react to that information (how fast they OODA so to speak) the more likely they can stop the press. This comes with a lot of training and a lot of experience.


I am trying to have an honest discussion. Do we have different standards for different people? Different standards for competition versus everyone else. Different for different kinds of competition. Different for different branches of the military or units in the law enforcement community. Should we have individual safety rules that is simply based on what you think you can handle?

My understanding is that I have been called out on a top level shooting guys Facebook page due to the idea that even though a shooter is not having any issues other than a finger in the trigger guard right off the holster as pictured in post 75, that I am some kind of idiot for having an issue with this. So, do I need to rethink what I am teaching? If I am wrong, how about the finger in the trigger guard when running, if it is off the trigger (and yes,i can post those pictures too). If it is okay on the draw, why not while moving if the muzzle is in a safe direction?

Note: Mods, if I am going down a road nobody wants to talk about, just PM me and I will stop.You are not heading down the wrong road IMO. Teaching sound principles is well....sound. I do think there is a difference in mindset from competition guys and defensive guys. I do think that competition guys like say Bob Vogel who also has a defensive background understands good defensive practices, but I might think that at the level of performance that he is working at in competition, he fully understands what he may be doing in regards to "short cutting" in order to win. Not saying that I agree or disagree but I am pretty sure he is making the competition decisions fully aware of this and does it for the sake of winning "the game". At least that is what I believe. I will also say that someone with skills like Bob Vogel probably has trigger control trained to a degree that he could get away with a lot more than 99.9% of other shooters. Not saying I would perform like this, but then again I am nowhere near his skill level, nor competing in his shoes either. In any case, I still fall onto the side of the fence that you are on.


My goal, and I believe my practice, based on looking at video, is to start my finger into the trigger guard as or after my hands come together, with a goal of the finger resting lightly on the face of the trigger as the pistol reaches extension. This assumes a regular two hand draw after the decision to shoot has been made, and a trigger system like the Glock. In my world, which is not LE, I have no reason to point guns at things I don't intend to shoot.This is still how I perform. Clear decision to shoot, clear identified target with no surrounding issues, hands coming together, muzzle level or nearly level on target and finger goes to trigger with light touch about at position 3. As weapon reaches full extension and the sight picture that is necessary is acquired, trigger gets pulled.


Don't know. The post was taken from here, and at least one Mod replied. I haven't seen it myself as I don't Facebook, but I do trust the mod here.



I think it is likely faster and more efficient at some point or we wouldn't do it when put on a straight up competitive clock, and I highly doubt the best guys in the world would be doing it without some benefit. I see it as more of a cost vs. benefit issue, and what is our training mindset in this regard.



This is where I try to be as well. It is always a battle.Again I agree. Cost vs. benefit and context of venue or type of shooting, ie closed range set up for a competition stage, or real world with moving barricades that may be frantic. Either case, I don't think you're off track at all. Lets face it, I have not walked in some shooters shoes, just like others have not walked in mine, or yours for that matter. I don't expect them to see things from a certain perspective that only comes with a lot of experience of pointing guns at humans or humans pointing guns at you. Just like I have no experience winning National or World championships, so I don't know what that is like or what it may take to get it done. Bob Vogel has real world experience, so I think he "gets it" but makes certain choices from an informed perspective. Not sure if other "Professionals" in the shooting sports can say the same?

[Tom Givens]

I don't want to get too entangled in this, so I'll just offer a point of reference. I happened to get to go to the range yesterday and video some drills.

In one series, I was drawing from concealment, IWB at 4:00, under a Concealed Carry Clothiers vest. Draw and fire 3 rds at 5 yards. Starting/stopping the video to dissect my performance I found this: Time to first shot is right at 1.0 sec.(No reaction time, I'm self starting.) My trigger finger is straight until both hands are fully on the gun, muzzle on the target. I consider being on the trigger at that point safe and proper. I think a one second draw is fast enough for any use other than very high level competition. So, it appears to me that not getting on the trigger until after hands meet and muzzle is on target does not have a significant time penalty for defensive shooting.

[Lomshek]

Is this dependent on who is doing it. Are only some people professional enough to use a certain draw? Should you only be using a draw with a finger in early if you have a competition pistol with a light trigger? Is it only important to have a fast draw if you are working in a controlled artificial environment with non-human targets, but not when working against a "potential" bad guy? Do we have a ranking system where if you have a way to dress when you shoot then you have different rules or standards of what safety rules apply. Different safety rules really do apply depending on who you are since the vagaries of what is safe enough depend a great deal on who you ask. Each of us has to determine what our personal version of "safe enough" is.

Some are going to err on the side of so called big boy rules (more appropriately called "Nothing will go wrong because I think I'm a Tier 1 ninja" rules), some are going to do whatever they can that won't get them DQ'd or yelled at (getting on the finger "early" during the draw in USPSA like the Vogel photo is not against the rules if an RO can even see that fast) and some few will follow a more rigorously safety oriented path.

Some get lucky, some get sloppy and some walk with a limp like Tex Grebner when they take shortcuts in safety.

Personally I'll follow the latter approach of erring on safety's side for all the reasons you and others have correctly espoused. I'm in no danger of winning nationals and have many seconds of improvement to make in my gaming before trying to save that last .1 at the expense of safety. Not worth it to me ever.

Many folks will argue with me endlessly that running a slide mounted safety on safe slows me down and are baffled when I tell them it doesn't as I demonstrate my lightning like 1.6 second draw. That's my level of personal safety and while I can clearly explain why I do things my way and show others how I can't make them do it my way (outside of my ability to DQ rules violating gun handling in matches).


I have been called out on a top level shooting guys Facebook page
I found your problem.

[Surf]

I am quite late to this conversation and quite honestly skimmed most of the thread. I am not a competition shooter so I have no rankings whatsoever so I will try to stay on my side of the road. It is no secret that I take a lot of information from the civilian shooting / competition world and attempt to incorporate that into my skills and use certain things to make a better defensive or combative shooter. Having said that, I do quite frequently press for speed and quite frankly much of what I do in my training and practice looks very "competition" based.

Having admitted that and since I come from a defensive / combative aspect of shooting I like to think that I adhere to sound safety practices in regards to handling and manipulation, be it muzzle discipline, trigger finger discipline as you will constantly hear me bringing those two safety points up on a very regular basis. Having said that I know what "I think" I am doing on a draw, throughout the presentation and breaking a shot, even on a draw around 1.0x - 1.1x seconds. As Mr. White mentioned, I thought since I have recently (last couple of weeks) shot some video, I have the most current draw and presentation. It is not quite high speed video, but I can clearly see when I am "going to" the trigger and when I am actually "touching" or "resting" on the trigger.

With my Glock and with a 1911 I have a point where I "touch the trigger" with little to no pressure and then I break the shot. With a SA/DA or a revolver, I apply more pressure and start the squeeze prior to full extension. In both instances the gun is fairly level on target. I also seem to have the ability to stop the press in the last hundredths of a second as I am processing in a dynamic presentation where my initial assessment was to fire a shot. I have done it often in training and in the real critical situations. The below video will show some of what I am talking about.

In relation to this topic, this is what I can make of my trigger finger. Like Mr. White mentioned above I was a bit concerned about the trigger finger topic as I had not really thought too heavily about it when pressing speeds in the 1 second range, however as he mentioned, I am all about checking myself and a dose of reality should never hurt, at least if you are humble and sincere enough to give yourself a "no shitter" from time to time.

As a reference, I will make note that from AIWB at about 5 yards or so, if I am looking for decent A zone accuracy I am at about .9x, start getting mix of A or C zone hits and I am at about mid .8's. From 10 yards on 10" steel with around ~90% repeatability I should be in the 1.0x - 1.1x sec range. In the clips below I am shooting 10" steel @10 yds, not really attempting for breakneck speed but trying to stay in that 1.0x - 1-1x sec range with repeatability. A couple of things I note from the video's that confirm what "I think" I am doing is that
1 - I go to the trigger as my support hand establishes the grip.
2 - The weapon is definitely oriented downrange when the grip is established. Muzzle nearly flat on target or flat on target.
3 - If my grip is poor it takes much longer for my trigger finger to make contact with the trigger and I take more time on my sights.
4 - If I pause and decide at the last fraction of a second while at extension to not to make a shot my trigger finger is in contact but does not complete the pull.
5 - At the above mentioned 10 yds, 10" steel in 1.0x - 1-1x seconds, it takes roughly .02 - .04 seconds of muzzle settlement (absolute no discernable body / arm / hand movement before the shot breaks. I would think at 3-5 yards in .8x seconds you might still see movement and a break of the shot prior to complete stop of any momentum.
6 - This was pointed out by Todd in that I seem to be better with a higher initial draw stroke and I would have to agree with that.

Also note that there is a difference in how one might "go to" a trigger in regards to a positive shoot on a static target with no downrange considerations as opposed to a possible target with potential considerations in regards to surroundings and backstop.

Here is the video


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8Vqqc1VNQc

[Kyle Reese]

Thanks for sharing, Surf. Very informative thoughts and video!

[GJM]

We are ahead of schedule. Only 12 pages to determine the finger should enter the trigger guard about as the two hands come together. I would have guessed that would have taken 20 or more pages.

[JustOneGun]

Thanks for the video Surf. It shows just how late you come on the trigger and still make a quick shot.

From what I've seen when the screw up happens it's usually a bit earlier in the process. So someone might take a similar video and say they are fine because the finger is still off the trigger just after they clear their body. When in fact the screw up usually happens just before that.
That was the main argument against added safety when looking at videos of the L shaped draw and supposed placing the finger on the trigger after the sight was on target. It wasn't and when we screw up it probably won't be.
For me I prefer to feel the hands first touching together before moving the trigger finger. I figure on a screw up that's about when the gun would go bang (at the start of the movement, not the end as is usual).

[Mr_White]

Nice video Surf, thanks for posting it. That's some good slow motion footage where you can see exactly what you doing. Next week I am going to work on setting up the high speed video for myself, but what you are doing with your finger is what I predict I am going to see. Guess I will find out though!

[Surf]

We are ahead of schedule. Only 12 pages to determine the finger should enter the trigger guard about as the two hands come together. I would have guessed that would have taken 20 or more pages.Were making progress.


Thanks for the video Surf. It shows just how late you come on the trigger and still make a quick shot.
In relation to guys who are blistering fast like Mr. White I am sure they can produce those times with the same results of the trigger finger and when they make contact onto the trigger. So in a gun game you would really need to be in a situation where literally hundreth(s) of a second are the deciding factor if you were using the excuse of getting on the trigger early to win. Only about .1 percent could ever make such a claim and I am not saying I agree with that choice either. In a defensive situation, being aware and better trained is a huge advantage in how / when you present the weapon as opposed to a quick draw and finger on the trigger to shave .0x off the shot. Along the lines of what Nyeti has been saying.


Nice video Surf, thanks for posting it. That's some good slow motion footage where you can see exactly what you doing. Next week I am going to work on setting up the high speed video for myself, but what you are doing with your finger is what I predict I am going to see. Guess I will find out though!Look forward to the video! I am always impressed by the speed and efficiency of your presentation.

[Chuck Haggard]

Even in a game, one can not shoot until one is on target, throwing rounds randomly downrange is no way to win, so it appears that one may think they are doing something to go-fast more gooder, when in fact they are not.

[GJM]

Even in a game, one can not shoot until one is on target, throwing rounds randomly downrange is no way to win, so it appears that one may think they are doing something to go-fast more gooder, when in fact they are not.

I would add that Production shooters in USPSA are particularly conscious of this, because magazines are only loaded with ten cartridges, and shots are scored as minor, meaning C's and D's are very costly.

[Chuck Haggard]

I would add that Production shooters in USPSA are particularly conscious of this, because magazines are only loaded with ten cartridges, and shots are scored as minor, meaning C's and D's are very costly.

Yup, I'm one of those guys.

Wait, if I shoot USPSA, at times in Limited as well, and I used to be a SWAT guy and carried a gun full time for a living, am I a gamer or a Timmy?

[taadski]

Yup, I'm one of those guys.

Wait, if I shoot USPSA, at times in Limited as well, and I used to be a SWAT guy and carried a gun full time for a living, am I a gamer or a Timmy?


Yes.


















:-D

[Redhat]

Yup, I'm one of those guys.

Wait, if I shoot USPSA, at times in Limited as well, and I used to be a SWAT guy and carried a gun full time for a living, am I a gamer or a Timmy?

depends on your mindset...oops!

[BN]

Yup, I'm one of those guys.

Wait, if I shoot USPSA, at times in Limited as well, and I used to be a SWAT guy and carried a gun full time for a living, am I a gamer or a Timmy?

Be all that you can be. ;)

[Trooper224]

Yup, I'm one of those guys.

Wait, if I shoot USPSA, at times in Limited as well, and I used to be a SWAT guy and carried a gun full time for a living, am I a gamer or a Timmy?

You're a Gammy.

[MDS]

You're a Gammy.
I was gonna say Tamer, but that works.

[Chuck Haggard]

Read Jeff Hall's bit here, or at least the part on page 11; http://le.nra.org/documents/pdf/law/Summer2008.pdf

[Mr_White]

Gammy's getting upset!

[Dagga Boy]

Interesting discussion video on the other thread. Don't ND, don't get caught. Sort of an interesting take on the whole thing.

Had an interesting discussion with a bunch of LE instructors on this over the last week. One of the dirty secrets out there is how many LE shootings are ND's where the officer intended to shoot,but ND'd a few feet in front of them (or elsewhere) and the crook gives up. Shocking the number of stories from all over the place. These are, of course, hushed up and looked at as a successful "no harm, no foul" shooting. Heck, I am sure some medals have been earned this way.

Overall, it is obvious that there are a couple of camps on all of this. I am in the Jeff Hall camp (Jeff is a stellar instructor and one of the toughest cops to have ever pinned on a badge) and look at the cases when I have failed to exercise good finger discipline as a failure that needs to get fixed.....even if I only caught myself. Others are good with as long as you don't get caught, it is also good. Whatever, it's just safety.

[cclaxton]

Yup, I'm one of those guys.

Wait, if I shoot USPSA, at times in Limited as well, and I used to be a SWAT guy and carried a gun full time for a living, am I a gamer or a Timmy?
:D
BOTH!!
Cody

[Chuck Haggard]

Interesting discussion video on the other thread. Don't ND, don't get caught. Sort of an interesting take on the whole thing.

Had an interesting discussion with a bunch of LE instructors on this over the last week. One of the dirty secrets out there is how many LE shootings are ND's where the officer intended to shoot,but ND'd a few feet in front of them (or elsewhere) and the crook gives up. Shocking the number of stories from all over the place. These are, of course, hushed up and looked at as a successful "no harm, no foul" shooting. Heck, I am sure some medals have been earned this way.

Overall, it is obvious that there are a couple of camps on all of this. I am in the Jeff Hall camp (Jeff is a stellar instructor and one of the toughest cops to have ever pinned on a badge) and look at the cases when I have failed to exercise good finger discipline as a failure that needs to get fixed.....even if I only caught myself. Others are good with as long as you don't get caught, it is also good. Whatever, it's just safety.

Quoted for truth.

[Dagga Boy]

I really think folks need to pick what they want to do. If it is not painfully obvious to people that there is a Combat Triad that consists of maintenance of a solid balance of Mindset, marksmanship, and Gun handling/tactics. Training needs to be geared toward the requirements of applying those things in a combative environment. The Competition world has an identical triad of Match mindset, match marksmanship, and match gun handling/tactics. To really excel to the top levels you will have to be fully dedicated to "your" pyramid. If you drift to the other group, some serious decisions need to be made about how you mix the two. They do not mix well in most areas from what I have seen. I think most folks on the combatives side will concede that there is much to be learned from the competitive side on some technical aspects of the mechanics of shooting. Unfortunately, the safety aspects from the combatives side have been all but ignored by the competitive side ( we also see this from those who like to attribute "high speed" to what they do on the combatives side). For all the scientific progress and technical skills made from the competition world in pure shooting, I find it interesting that those same advances made on the combatives side with what happens outside the controlled arena (and sometimes in it) with safety is ignored on the other side and discounted as not needed (watch the other person in the video on the other threads comments- not Oak or Stoeger) if you think I am making this up. Should be interesting to see how this subject advances.

[cclaxton]

I really think folks need to pick what they want to do. If it is not painfully obvious to people that there is a Combat Triad that consists of maintenance of a solid balance of Mindset, marksmanship, and Gun handling/tactics. Training needs to be geared toward the requirements of applying those things in a combative environment. The Competition world has an identical triad of Match mindset, match marksmanship, and match gun handling/tactics. To really excel to the top levels you will have to be fully dedicated to "your" pyramid. If you drift to the other group, some serious decisions need to be made about how you mix the two. They do not mix well in most areas from what I have seen. I think most folks on the combatives side will concede that there is much to be learned from the competitive side on some technical aspects of the mechanics of shooting. Unfortunately, the safety aspects from the combatives side have been all but ignored by the competitive side ( we also see this from those who like to attribute "high speed" to what they do on the combatives side). For all the scientific progress and technical skills made from the competition world in pure shooting, I find it interesting that those same advances made on the combatives side with what happens outside the controlled arena (and sometimes in it) with safety is ignored on the other side and discounted as not needed (watch the other person in the video on the other threads comments- not Oak or Stoeger) if you think I am making this up. Should be interesting to see how this subject advances.
Darryl,
Is it your position that we can't train for both? I tend to think that we can, because we know when we are competing, shooting cardboard and steel, and we definitely know when our life and the lives of others are at stake in a bad situation. I think we are smart enough and aware enough to know the difference and the context.
Cody

[orionz06]

Making such a black and white argument seems dishonest. You get out what you put in. I can't look at a score sheet or class roster and determine who is doing what. I've been in classes where folks were all about the scores and I've been in matches where folks were all about da streetz.


I like to train to improve my pistol shooting skills under as many different stimuli as possible in as many conditions makes sense for a self defensive minded shooter. Vest game, "tactical" classes, combatives classes, FoF, and problem solving classes seem to be the brunt of what I do. If this is "wrong" I would love to know why.

[MDS]

When we ask how much speed and accuracy is enough, our answer is usually "nothing is enough." We always want to make tighter groups at higher speeds. In practice, these are competing interests, and it's craftsmanship of the gun to find ways to maximize both at once. But it's the philosophy of the craft to prioritize one over the other - some people blaze away with C's and are happy, some people take a little longer to get mostly A's and are happy. I think it's clear that be a contender you need to learn to blaze away AND get mostly A's.

Why isn't safety viewed that way, too? When we ask how much safety is enough, our answer could be "nothing is enough." We could always want to be safer. Just like accuracy, our safety will degrade considerably during stress. Training and aspiring to a very high level of safety would seem to be critical if we are preparing for the possibility of defending ourselves with a gun. If we're not worried about defense, then maybe it's a good idea to achieve a certain predefined level of "enough" safety and avoid further complicating our journey to GM.

But the problem is that you'll fight how you train. If you spend all your training time blazing away at C's, you'll fight differently than if you go at whatever speed you need to get all A's. Similarly, if you spend all your training time being OK with early fingers on triggers, you'll fight differently than if you go at whatever speed you need to follow Rule III like a nazi. I don't think anyone disputes this? No one's perfect, of course - sometimes we hit going fast, sometimes we miss going slow, and sometimes we're not safe even when we're trying hard to be - and yet the general impetus or priorities of our training will strongly flavor the way we perform.

[Dagga Boy]

Darryl,
Is it your position that we can't train for both? I tend to think that we can, because we know when we are competing, shooting cardboard and steel, and we definitely know when our life and the lives of others are at stake in a bad situation. I think we are smart enough and aware enough to know the difference and the context.
Cody

You can train for both. Now think about Hearne's class and ask yourself how you think things will turn out. What will you do? What did you actually over-learn, and what have you made into habits. How have you been treating cardboard and steel in training- as people, or as card board and steel that people rules don't apply to. How do you treat berms...as a backstop or as Walmart? What will your brain prioritize?


Making such a black and white argument seems dishonest. You get out what you put in. I can't look at a score sheet or class roster and determine who is doing what. I've been in classes where folks were all about the scores and I've been in matches where folks were all about da streetz.


I like to train to improve my pistol shooting skills under as many different stimuli as possible in as many conditions makes sense for a self defensive minded shooter. Vest game, "tactical" classes, combatives classes, FoF, and problem solving classes seem to be the brunt of what I do. If this is "wrong" I would love to know why.

Notice I said to be at the top levels of both. I think we can train in different areas and train to do things right. The question is are we competing to supplement training for a fight and understand that, or competing to win at the highest levels in a sport in which the gun-handling, marksmanship and mindset are totally different. I do think it is black and white at a certain point.


When we ask how much speed and accuracy is enough, our answer is usually "nothing is enough." We always want to make tighter groups at higher speeds. In practice, these are competing interests, and it's craftsmanship of the gun to find ways to maximize both at once. But it's the philosophy of the craft to prioritize one over the other - some people blaze away with C's and are happy, some people take a little longer to get mostly A's and are happy. I think it's clear that be a contender you need to learn to blaze away AND get mostly A's.

Why isn't safety viewed that way, too? When we ask how much safety is enough, our answer could be "nothing is enough." We could always want to be safer. Just like accuracy, our safety will degrade considerably during stress. Training and aspiring to a very high level of safety would seem to be critical if we are preparing for the possibility of defending ourselves with a gun. If we're not worried about defense, then maybe it's a good idea to achieve a certain predefined level of "enough" safety and avoid further complicating our journey to GM.

But the problem is that you'll fight how you train. If you spend all your training time blazing away at C's, you'll fight differently than if you go at whatever speed you need to get all A's. Similarly, if you spend all your training time being OK with early fingers on triggers, you'll fight differently than if you go at whatever speed you need to follow Rule III like a nazi. I don't think anyone disputes this? No one's perfect, of course - sometimes we hit going fast, sometimes we miss going slow, and sometimes we're not safe even when we're trying hard to be - and yet the general impetus or priorities of our training will strongly flavor the way we perform.

I think this is in line with what I am thinking.

[orionz06]

So where would we look for a "top level" defensive shooter to compare to the top level competence shooters?

[MDS]

So where would we look for a "top level" defensive shooter to compare to the top level competence shooters?
Great question, and I hope some folks more knowledgeable than I chime in. But I suspect the answers will be somewhat complicated, in terms of "here's a video breakdown and explanation, let's compare" because top level defensive (and offensive) shooters don't show their skills off as publicly as top level competitors do, just by virtue of different venue and different emphasis on things like opsec.

[orionz06]

Great question, and I hope some folks more knowledgeable than I chime in. But I suspect the answers will be somewhat complicated, in terms of "here's a video breakdown and explanation, let's compare" because top level defensive (and offensive) shooters don't show their skills off as publicly as top level competitors do, just by virtue of different venue and different emphasis on things like opsec.

It's a half loaded question, condition 3 question perhaps.


We can clearly quantity the best competitive and/or technical shooters but I'm not sure we can measure success from a defensive standpoint. To consider it we have to consider that untrained individuals succeed in defending their lives and the lives of others and that seems to muddy the waters.

[Dagga Boy]

It's a half loaded question, condition 3 question perhaps.


We can clearly quantity the best competitive and/or technical shooters but I'm not sure we can measure success from a defensive standpoint. To consider it we have to consider that untrained individuals succeed in defending their lives and the lives of others and that seems to muddy the waters.

I actually do an entire presentation at the Rangemaster conference on the exact subject.

[Snapshot]

... look at the cases when I have failed to exercise good finger discipline as a failure that needs to get fixed.....even if I only caught myself.

This is a great concept from an excellent discussion.

In Canada we don't have much in the way of defensive shooting, CCW or training for these among civilians so I am strictly a competitor. But reading and thinking about this thread I came to the same conclusion as quoted above, and I focused on applying it at a match this past Saturday.

This was a CQB match involving a combination of rifle (carbine) and pistol with a very simple and safe transition - the rifle was unloaded and cleared, and the pistol was in a duty / competition type holster in condition 2 (loaded magazine, empty chamber, aka "Israeli carry"). The pertinent portion of the match is along the lines of "shooters in the aim with rifle, on the whistle draw pistol, 2 to the body, 1 to the head, magazine change, 2 to the body, 1 to the head" on two adjacent targets at various distances from 25 yards down to 10 yards.

Being focused on finger discipline I was expecting and ready to accept poor results on the pistol portion, but in fact I shot my personal best scores in this match since I started participating in 2011, and placed third in a field of 35.

My conclusion is that for me it need not and must not be a choice between finger discipline and scoring.

[GJM]

So what do you think is harder:

1) using video to teach a guy, who shoots fast and accurately, to be mindful of trigger discipline

or

2) teaching a guy who thinks he has good trigger discipline, to shoot fast and accurately

[Dagga Boy]

I don't think either are the issue. Looking at some of the recent posts in the other thread (I am reading only at this point as I have no business posting in a competition thread), the consensus seems to be that there are very few accidents, so the whole issue is irrelevant and not worth discussing. Again,their sport, do whatever you want with it.

So, the question becomes is it harder to train to be fast and accurate while utilizing safety practices for deployment of firearms in a non controlled street environment, or is it easier to make gains in speed and accuracy when you do not have to concern yourself with street use safety and gun handling restrictions. I think the answer is obvious.

[GJM]

So, the question becomes is it harder to train to be fast and accurate while utilizing safety practices for deployment of firearms in a non controlled street environment, or is it easier to make gains in speed and accuracy when you do not have to concern yourself with street use safety and gun handling restrictions. I think the answer is obvious.

I would be interested in your thinking on this.

[orionz06]

I actually do an entire presentation at the Rangemaster conference on the exact subject.

I know you can't give away your presentation but I'd be interested to hear some of what it is. Otherwise it's a little difficult to see what you're getting at.


I don't think either are the issue. Looking at some of the recent posts in the other thread (I am reading only at this point as I have no business posting in a competition thread), the consensus seems to be that there are very few accidents, so the whole issue is irrelevant and not worth discussing. Again,their sport, do whatever you want with it.

So, the question becomes is it harder to train to be fast and accurate while utilizing safety practices for deployment of firearms in a non controlled street environment, or is it easier to make gains in speed and accuracy when you do not have to concern yourself with street use safety and gun handling restrictions. I think the answer is obvious.

So what is it?

[GJM]

How do you rate this, as regards trigger finger safety:

http://youtu.be/a51LlyWkLrQ

[Dagga Boy]

I think it would be much easier to improve on the mechanical side with a mindset free of "restrictions". There is simply less to interfere with the mind and mindset involved in training for a different type of pure performance.

I am very restricted mentally, and it know it. I know I hold my marksmanship skills back by focusing much harder on my gun handling skills. I found when I really delved into the subject at my old workplace in regards to training that we were handling guns around people FAR more than shooting them. Most of the actual shooting stuff was not particularly difficult in regards to the shooting problem......it was the chaos and unpredictability going on a the same time that made the problems difficult. I directed a ton of training towards the gun handling issues for the real world. In regards to LEO's, I think this is very important as they are often handling innocent folks at the end of a gun due to circumstances out of their control and/or due to getting wrong or vague information. This is a HUGE responsibility and not about shooting. Just getting to the shooting decision is horribly complex. IF firing is needed, it is also a constantly evaluated process, and misses of the primary target are very dangerous and unacceptable and we strive to have no collateral damage. That is a lot of excess stuff. I actually would love to simply free my mind and simply learn to manage a pistol as a simple shooting machine with only paper results as the driving motivation. I simply am afraid of the habits and sub-conscious problems that can be hatch doing this....part of which is the subject of this thread.

As far the class I present, I look at the training habits of guys who have shot a bunch of criminals with solid wins not based on luck but skill and all legal and "righteous" shootings. The problem is, there are not a ton of these folks around anymore. LE and society in general just don't let folks get exceptionally good at this any longer. Competition is addressed in the presentation and there are many similarities of the individuals I based it on. I also have some different takes on what we consider "competition".

[Chuck Haggard]

Dude in George's posted video obviously saw the trip coming and decided to roll through instead of bite the dirt hard, and kept his composure, and trigger finger in check.

I'm dead certain that USPSA would have more DQs via ND if they shot in the dark, with random unknown trip hazards thrown in, small animals getting under foot, etc.

[Dagga Boy]

How do you rate this, as regards trigger finger safety:

http://youtu.be/a51LlyWkLrQ

This is why having a finger in index is important when not shooting. It is also why I am against the practice of running with guns. I actually hurt myself pretty good in a very similar situation on the street chasing a felon....it hurts more on asphalt. Trust me, you do not want my "finger in the trigger guard while running" file pictures going in this thread as a ton of hate will start that we really do not need. I think this stuff is actually moving forward productively right now, and I hope more competition folks join and would like to see a healthy defensive shooting discussion area, a healthy technical area, and a healthy competition area where we can at least reference several areas of handgun use for reading and education, even if it is not our thing. I do not want to go down this road, so you may want to drop this for now.

[SLG]

How do you rate this, as regards trigger finger safety:

http://youtu.be/a51LlyWkLrQ

Regardless of the circumstances, I would say that was excellent. It did look like he had some time to "plan" it out, but nonetheless, I thought he handled it well.

As to Nyeti's point about running with a gun, I too have hurt myself (needed stitches) while running with a gun. Not sure what I could have done differently though in that situation. I've also needed to run with a gun in order to not be killed (indirect fire as well as the more common kind) as well as run with a gun to prevent others from being killed. Not sure how those situations could have been handled differently either.

[cclaxton]

How do you rate this, as regards trigger finger safety:

http://youtu.be/a51LlyWkLrQ
Is the point here that if he had his finger in the guard he would have likely sent off a ND?
Did anyone notice the 180 violation?
Cody

[Chuck Haggard]

Is the point here that if he had his finger in the guard he would have likely sent off a ND?
Did anyone notice the 180 violation?
Cody

He did appear to be past the 180 before he tripped

[Dagga Boy]

Is the point here that if he had his finger in the guard he would have likely sent off a ND?
Did anyone notice the 180 violation?
Cody

Falling is one of those things that is a major cause of ND's and why a solid index position is an important safeguard for this.

After my "learning crash", my solution when speed of movement was a priority, I would simply holster and run and re-draw as needed if at all possible. As I often say, we are all victims of our own experience. I ate it in a place I shouldn't have....well lit dry parking lot in front of a convenience store.....all except the spot where somebody thought a vehicle repair and a failure to clean up the big pool of gear oil. The more Murphy opportunities, the more safety protocol adherence is needed.

[Mr_White]

Regardless of the circumstances, I would say that was excellent. It did look like he had some time to "plan" it out, but nonetheless, I thought he handled it well.

Totally agree.


Did anyone notice the 180 violation?

Can you post a screen shot of that moment?


I think it would be much easier to improve on the mechanical side with a mindset free of "restrictions". There is simply less to interfere with the mind and mindset involved in training for a different type of pure performance.

Easier from the standpoint of there being less to deal with in training and practice, sure. That's very different from excellent safety, gunhandling, and shooting being mutually exclusive to each other.


I am very restricted mentally, and it know it. I know I hold my marksmanship skills back by focusing much harder on my gun handling skills.

The only way I think you are holding yourself back is by laboring under the false idea that to shoot really well, you have to cut corners on safety. I don't think it has to be that way.

[GJM]

More USPSA fun:


http://youtu.be/zCAEGk3TVk0

[BaiHu]

More USPSA fun:


http://youtu.be/zCAEGk3TVk0
Tie them shoes tighter?

[GJM]

Tie them shoes tighter?

Apparently a cable malfunctioned, wrapped around his foot, and the rest is on video. I think he did a great job of keeping finger straight and muzzle down range. Extra points for finishing minus shoe and headset. Open shooters may be tougher than run of the mill timmies. :)

[BaiHu]

Apparently a cable malfunctioned, wrapped around his foot, and the rest is on video. I think he did a great job of keeping finger straight and muzzle down range. Extra points for finishing minus shoe and headset. Open shooters may be tougher than run of the mill timmies. :)
Job well done. I wonder if he had ear plugs too...

[Dagga Boy]

"The only way I think you are holding yourself back is by laboring under the false idea that to shoot really well, you have to cut corners on safety. I don't think it has to be that way."

Define "shoot really well". Do you mean pure mechanical shooting, some kind of tests? Shoot well on other people's problems or sports, or shoot really well in my particular area of interest? This post was timely with a little epiphany I had over the last day or so.

I was doing some dry practice work and working out of my concealment rig from under a t-shirt (I got all motivated watching Surf's video). I noticed that I still run my trigger finger in register till the sights are confirmed. It is natural, and habit. I started to ask myself "why". I figure that I have drawn on thousands of folks over the years. Due to solid training early (before being an LEO), I have started with a hard index right from the beginning, even in the revolver days when this was not heavily emphasized. I take the act of drawing on another human very seriously, and my training is geared towards that. I started to think about why I am not presenting like everyone else seems to be, even when trying to "go fast" (which isn't particularly fast). So what is causing me to be so hesitant to get on a trigger before sights. I was actually troubled by this aversion. The only thing that made sense as to why I would be doing things different than most must be experience based. Then it sort of hit me. Everyone I ever shot, and most I was actively trying to shoot (last second change of circumstances stopped the press) was moving, and fairly dynamically. Everyone I have drawn on with some intent to shoot was moving. The only ones who seemed to stand still were the "non-shoots". Those who surrendered, stopped their action, wrong person/mis identified/innocent, etc. So I think it is set deep in my pea brain to set the track before worrying about the trigger. I am curious to see if anyone else who has actually done this for real on a living breathing human has noticed the same thing about humans moving off line when we start attempting to shoot them? I have a feeling, that this may be LE centric as I think for those drawing on a criminal with intent to shoot in a concealed carry scenario (including non-identified LEO's in plain clothes) surprise heir opponents who are not trying to maneuver or out-maneuver them. Its a theory I am working through......any thoughts from the peanut gallery?

[BaiHu]

Very interesting epiphany and it makes logical sense. The person doing nothing wrong would freeze like a deer with the "not me" look, verbiage and hands up don't shoot posture. Very interesting self reflection.

[Dagga Boy]

One additional thing before we get into the "you're just making an excuse for sucking". I actually looked at this possibility first. I thought back to what I shoot "well" and what I was actually winning trophy's at when I was dedicated to it...and what I was a better pure mechanical shooter at, and the answer (that I will give up later) also made perfect sense. Sorry for the little digression, but I wanted to make sure everyone knew I did look at pure sucking as a possibility, and it was one of the first things I looked at.:cool:

[taadski]

Apparently a cable malfunctioned, wrapped around his foot, and the rest is on video. I think he did a great job of keeping finger straight and muzzle down range. Extra points for finishing minus shoe and headset. Open shooters may be tougher than run of the mill timmies. :)

What, did this happen at your home range too? :p

Yeah, those open guys sure seem motivated to keep those 3K+ pistols from hitting the deck. :D

[Lomshek]

Is the point here that if he had his finger in the guard he would have likely sent off a ND?
Did anyone notice the 180 violation?
Cody

I think the point is that he had a proper hard index so that even though he fell he did not ND and his finger is clearly on the frame the entire time.

As far as the 180 it sort of looks like it but the camera view can give a false sense of angles. Remember that 179 degrees does not break the 180 and is therefore legal and most cameras distort depth perception (or whatever you call it) enough to not trust a close call to a replay on youtube.

[cclaxton]

The wall to his left is parallel with the shooting box, which appears to be parallel with the back berm. At this point in the video his muzzle appears to be be breaking the 180. If you watch this section a number of times and observe the relationship of the starting box with the fence and his muzzle, it appears to be a 180 violation.
Cody

[cclaxton]

SOrry, forgot the link:
https://youtu.be/a51LlyWkLrQ?t=55
Cody

[GJM]

The wall to his left is parallel with the shooting box, which appears to be parallel with the back berm. At this point in the video his muzzle appears to be be breaking the 180. If you watch this section a number of times and observe the relationship of the starting box with the fence and his muzzle, it appears to be a 180 violation.
Cody

Do four "appears" equal one 180? :)

I think the real message of these two videos, is that even the gamiest of game shooters, USPSA open shooters, when eating dirt, focused on safety by keeping their finger off the trigger and the muzzle pointed in a safe direction. I would go a step further and say that game shooters, USPSA and IDPA, are amongst the most safety conscious of any groups of shooters. And they maintain that level of safety, while competing against the clock, often running and shooting targets in arrays quite different in location than seen on the typical square range.

[Mr_White]

The only way I think you are holding yourself back is by laboring under the false idea that to shoot really well, you have to cut corners on safety. I don't think it has to be that way.


Define "shoot really well". Do you mean pure mechanical shooting, some kind of tests? Shoot well on other people's problems or sports, or shoot really well in my particular area of interest?

All I mean is higher level technical shooting in terms of accuracy and time. Measurement usually happens in tests, standards, drills, competitions, etc. because that's where it's most clearly discernible and different people's skills can be effectively compared. I'm of the belief that better technical skills are generally going to allow better potential technical performance in more difficult circumstances.


Everyone I ever shot, and most I was actively trying to shoot (last second change of circumstances stopped the press) was moving, and fairly dynamically. Everyone I have drawn on with some intent to shoot was moving.


I am curious to see if anyone else who has actually done this for real on a living breathing human has noticed the same thing about humans moving off line when we start attempting to shoot them?

I think that's a normal part of engaging a much more difficult target - in this example, a moving target, and often with background issues. When the target is hard enough that the gun needs to completely settle, or aiming in a way short of using visually verified sights will be insufficient, it's not weird for the finger to touch the trigger and press it later than when the problem is a lot easier and firing is going to happen sooner.

I've seen this plenty myself with swinging bowling pins. For a given number of good shots fired, there is generally more time spent aiming and pressing the trigger, due to movement by the target and the shooter. Add no-shoots and it's worse. And subtleties emerge, like when the trigger press is paused and restarted when a safe shot momentarily becomes unavailable, but before the gun is dismounted and the finger returned to register, the shot becomes available again. Things I feel sure I have seen you write about.

I strongly believe that more pure technical skill in shooting is really helpful in contending with these kinds of problems - hitting the right thing and avoiding hitting the wrong thing when there's lots more movement and physical chaos.


I have a feeling, that this may be LE centric as I think for those drawing on a criminal with intent to shoot in a concealed carry scenario (including non-identified LEO's in plain clothes) surprise heir opponents who are not trying to maneuver or out-maneuver them.

That's probably a pretty accurate difference a lot of the time.

[JHC]

Apparently a cable malfunctioned, wrapped around his foot, and the rest is on video. I think he did a great job of keeping finger straight and muzzle down range. Extra points for finishing minus shoe and headset. Open shooters may be tougher than run of the mill timmies. :)

Outstanding performance. He consciously absorbs any impact but clearly focuses on safe gun handling. I've never fallen in a match but have taken many falls hunting on steep terrain, swamp or in heavy tangle. Instantly your mind goes to muzzle and trigger finger.

[Dagga Boy]

Do four "appears" equal one 180? :)

I think the real message of these two videos, is that even the gamiest of game shooters, USPSA open shooters, when eating dirt, focused on safety by keeping their finger off the trigger and the muzzle pointed in a safe direction. I would go a step further and say that game shooters, USPSA and IDPA, are amongst the most safety conscious of any groups of shooters. And they maintain that level of safety, while competing against the clock, often running and shooting targets in arrays quite different in location than seen on the typical square range.

You sure? I figure nobody is going to call him on it (R/O career suicide), but I don't know if I would look there as an example. This is why I am not posting on the competition thread,because I don't think they really care as long as there are no ND's and no one gets caught. I think we would be better off focusing on those groups that are really living by the four basic safety rules for the Modern Technique during actual street use rather than those pushing a timer in a sport. I don't think that is the place to look as it is an artificial environment with its own rules and dynamics.

Before the hate mail starts, I asked that we not go down this road. As a revolver guy, this is obviously one of my hero's and an absolute machine, but I won't be trying to use his gun handling techniques to dominate his sport while using a firearm on the street.

[Mr_White]

Oh noes, you went down that road! ;)

Seriously, like I already said and demonstrated with my comments about the Vogel picture, I don't have any problem calling an unsafe act, unsafe. And I don't care who it is. I'd still like to have a couple more frames on either side of the ones we do see of him and Jerry, because taking things out of context is a danger here. I'd leave an allowance that Jerry is at the beginning of engaging a target...but he does appear to be on the trigger when he shouldn't be, like the photos of three esteemed tactical guys who are doing something at least as bad, and in some cases worse.

I don't think the pictured apparent violations by Vogel and Jerry do anything to take away from the outstanding presence of mind and physical self-control demonstrated by the two Open shooters in the posted videos where they control themselves and the gun while falling.

Examples of competitive shooters violating trigger finger discipline doesn't do anything to indict the entire sport or all the shooters in it, any more than the posted examples of esteemed tactical guys doing the same thing indicts the entire tactical training community.

[Dagga Boy]

I actually have a ton of Jerry pictures. He is usually off the trigger but the finger is in the trigger guard in numerous matches in different disciplines. I think it is just a revolver thing with him.

In no way shape or form do I want to disparage the sport guys like Vogel or Miculek. I just want people to quit pretending and just face up to the fact that what happens in a controlled sport environment in regards to safety is not the same as what is a critical component of gun handling in a real world deployment and use of firearms. No more, no less. Just like how targets are treated. Just like how weapons are held and muzzle discipline is totally different. It is just like when I have used solid street TTP's in matches and been chastised,penalized and chewed out. It is different and we need to quit pretending it isn't in order to move forward and excel in our own areas of interest.

[Mr_White]

What street TTPs have you been penalized for in what kind of matches?

[Dagga Boy]

What street TTPs have you been penalized for in what kind of matches?

The huge one is when I do a Tac load, holster, then un-holster and do the unload and show clear. That sent several RSO's into a tiz. The others were how I engaged hostage targets, use of cover, and the penalties seemed to be something I was doing "wrong" on reloads, but I don't recall what it was. I was often getting scolded, but it was never for unsafe stuff, just not following some "way things are done". I have actually concluded that this was my fault as I should not have been using their competition to simply get trigger time in shooting someone else's stuff. It is why a simply started going to a lot more focused training instead.

[Mr_White]

I'm sorry to hear that. I like open and inclusive competitions, like I have been fortunate to experience here. Want to use 'cover'? Go ahead, or not, it's up to you. You can reload how and when you want. You can holster your hot gun after scanning and reloading, they will just repeat the 'if finished, unload and show clear' command. You would receive no penalty, and I'd be surprised if anyone even gave you any grief over it. People shoot competitions for all kinds of reasons. As long as it is safe/within the rules, ROs who want to enforce their view of 'how it should be done' can take a hike basically.

What was it about your engagement of hostage targets that they got upset about?

[Jared]

My experiences at matches with a wide variety of shooters mirror Mr_White's. The only thing I can see giving any of the RSO's I ever shot under would be the holstering of a hot gun instead of doing the unload and show clear straight away, but I'd be positively stunned if they got irate about it.

[JHC]

I'm sorry to hear that. I like open and inclusive competitions, like I have been fortunate to experience here. Want to use 'cover'? Go ahead, or not, it's up to you. You can reload how and when you want. You can holster your hot gun after scanning and reloading, they will just repeat the 'if finished, unload and show clear' command. You would receive no penalty, and I'd be surprised if anyone even gave you any grief over it. People shoot competitions for all kinds of reasons. As long as it is safe/within the rules, ROs who want to enforce their view of 'how it should be done' can take a hike basically.

What was it about your engagement of hostage targets that they got upset about?

In the early 80s shooting small local IPSC in Puyallup I think I amused the ROs stalking through a stage and shooting PAR timed sections like my hair was on fire. But they were very cool with the Summer Special IWB and all.

[Dagga Boy]

I'm sorry to hear that. I like open and inclusive competitions, like I have been fortunate to experience here. Want to use 'cover'? Go ahead, or not, it's up to you. You can reload how and when you want. You can holster your hot gun after scanning and reloading, they will just repeat the 'if finished, unload and show clear' command. You would receive no penalty, and I'd be surprised if anyone even gave you any grief over it. People shoot competitions for all kinds of reasons. As long as it is safe/within the rules, ROs who want to enforce their view of 'how it should be done' can take a hike basically.

What was it about your engagement of hostage targets that they got upset about?

The big one (there were a couple) was that I engaged a hostile first and then the hostage taker. My experience has been that when people take hostages,they want to live (versus the human shield that is a thread all it's own). The guy with no hostage has nothing to lose and to me is a bigger threat, and it was a closer target. I took the non-hostage taker first and then head shot the hostage taker. Guy running the stage gave me a bunch of crap about "tactical order" or some crap. What was funny was the head RSO was also the range RSO and it was he range where my team trained. He told me that he went over and told the guy who lectured me that he looked like an ass considering that I train a SWAT team for a living and that I was one of the few guys who has also resolved a true "baby held by violent fugitive" hostage problem very successfully.

Again, looking back, I was probably wrong for approaching their game with an intent to make it some constructive training for myself. If I wanted to participate in their sport, I should have conformed to the rules of the sport. How I handle corners was also very heavily scrutinized. Not that I did hundreds of cold room clearings a month...:confused:. The reality is I am sure much of this is regional and even club dependent. I am also sure every club has "That Guy" R/o who is likely attracted to guys like me like a fly to feces. I always seemed to have issues outside the one game I did well at and was fairly gamey at. The one I treated like a game I never had an issue at all.
There is also time as I am sure things have evolved in the last decade. So, I have admitted that trying to apply solid street procedures to a game is not a good path, would the opposite also maybe have some merit?

[orionz06]

The huge one is when I do a Tac load, holster, then un-holster and do the unload and show clear. That sent several RSO's into a tiz. The others were how I engaged hostage targets, use of cover, and the penalties seemed to be something I was doing "wrong" on reloads, but I don't recall what it was. I was often getting scolded, but it was never for unsafe stuff, just not following some "way things are done". I have actually concluded that this was my fault as I should not have been using their competition to simply get trigger time in shooting someone else's stuff. It is why a simply started going to a lot more focused training instead.

You're not concerned about burning in reps of drawing to unload?

[Dagga Boy]

You're not concerned about burning in reps of drawing to unload?

Not at all, and here is why. I am super diligent about doing tactical things as tactical things, and admin things as admin things. Most folks actually get into trouble on the admin side. So.....when I finish a stage I stay in tactical mode. I scan (not with the guns just my eyes. Perform a tactical reload and return to ready, and then holster to finish the "tactical exercise". I then flip my brain to "administrative mode". I do a controlled draw like I was in my home or at a clearing barrel. Perform a solid administrative unload, show clear and then re holster in the condition I want the pistol in (some ranges want the slide locked to the rear). This way, I get a tactically correct post shooting rep, AND I get an administrative unload rep in. High level administrative gun handling is as important as non-administrative in my book.

[SouthNarc]

Darryl was this USPSA or IDPA?

[LSP972]

It is just like when I have used solid street TTP's in matches and been chastised,penalized and chewed out.

This is why I quit competing. Yeah, its a game; I got that. But when an insurance salesman/RO tells me that what I was doing (NOT charging out into the middle of a four target array and start blasting away willy-nilly, flat-footed and one target at a time) is wrong and will "get you shot"… well, its pretty difficult not to tell said clueless gamer to go pound sand.

And does IDPA still penalize you for letting an empty mag hit the ground while there is still one in the chamber? Still scratching my head over the thought process behind that one.

Sometimes I wish they had a GSSF for HKs...:cool:

.

[SLG]

I have to say, my experience has been more like Mr White's. To illustrate just how far it has gone, I'll mention one example. I won my one and only national championship after being DQ'd. Soft win, no doubt. Before the match actually started (I think) I had drawn my gun and pointed it down range at a berm. No one was near me, let alone down range, and nothing remotely unsafe happened. No competitors were around or waiting to check out the stage. Nonetheless, the RO decided I needed to be DQ'd, because I had violated a match rule. The match director was told what I did and decided not to DQ me, given that nothing unsafe actually occurred. My understanding is that I violated the rules, but the match director used his discretion and altered the ruling. I thought that was pretty nice of him, and I think shows that not all officials are blinded by the rule book, reality be damned.

On the other hand, I've seen some pretty stupid non-spirit-of-the-rules decisions made in other matches, most notable IDPA. That is one reason I prefer the non tactical nature of USPSA. Call it ego, but I'm not interested in being taught tactics by the average IDPA RO. Or SO, or whatever they are called. When they've successfully used cover to not get shot, I'll pay more attention.:-) I really do greatly appreciate what they do to make the sport happen, and most of them have been great to work with, but some of them (probably a small percentage) think that they are there to teach the competitors about the real world.

Finally, I have to say that trying to be "tactical" while shooting a non tactical match just doesn't make much sense to me. That's why Todd and I created a "tactical" match:-) Do I top off my gun before putting it away in a scenario shoot or a force on force drill so that I'll do it for real on the street? Of course. Do I top it off every time I shoot it on a range before holstering? Of course not. I wouldn't get much shooting practice that way-which is the reason I'm on a range. I also think that my higher level of gun handling and shooting allows me to think more on the street. That is, not trigger check my gun, not think about draws, trigger press etc.., just accomplish them, while spending time thinking about my angles and distance and background(when appropriate). YMMV, and probably does.

Also, to touch on another point brought up above, you have to be very careful which competitor you choose to mimic. Many of them are unsafe. Many of them have shot themselves (not made public, like Tex), many of them think they understand use of force, but are really pretty clueless. All that is also true of the tactical guys, as I think I've said before.

Just read Nyeti's post on "admin mode". That is how I approach all competition, which is why I can enjoy it. I'm not training for reality, I'm just out shooting. I don't cut corners in my weapons handling and I don't try to add tactics in where there are none.

[orionz06]

Not at all, and here is why. I am super diligent about doing tactical things as tactical things, and admin things as admin things. Most folks actually get into trouble on the admin side. So.....when I finish a stage I stay in tactical mode. I scan (not with the guns just my eyes. Perform a tactical reload and return to ready, and then holster to finish the "tactical exercise". I then flip my brain to "administrative mode". I do a controlled draw like I was in my home or at a clearing barrel. Perform a solid administrative unload, show clear and then re holster in the condition I want the pistol in (some ranges want the slide locked to the rear). This way, I get a tactically correct post shooting rep, AND I get an administrative unload rep in. High level administrative gun handling is as important as non-administrative in my book.

So what many call a hard break?

[LSP552]

Sometimes I wish they had a GSSF for HKs...:cool:

.

Wouldn't be economically feasible to hold a match for 3 guys.....

[Dagga Boy]

So what many call a hard break?

Not sure. I just know we do a ton of administrative gun handling. The simple acts of loading,unloading, loaded chamber verification, etc. Just the process of getting a loaded pistol ready to be cleaned has resulted in numerous deaths. From what I have seen, a majority of this country is unable to SAFELY and competently verify the status of a semi-automatic pistol. Yet, we often ignore administrative handling in our training, and it is often neglected in continuing training. This is why many are so sloppy. Then we get the folks who are so awesome that they can perform admin tasks with no thought what so ever....they are usually found in the news under "instructor shoots student" headlines. Simply put, I place as much emphasis on how a handle a firearm during routine and mundane tasks as when deploying a firearm in a real world setting or during tactical training. I choose to make a solid effort at doing things right whenever possible. Right is also not the thing where you rapidly retract the slide and catch the round from the chamber in the air....

[Dagga Boy]

Darryl was this USPSA or IDPA?

Most of my problems has been with IDPA and IDPA "practical type" matches. Those seem to have the most issues with SOME R/O's who think they are tactical guru's based on their ranking or classification. I think the LEo's also get the brunt of stupidity of these guys as it becomes sort of a bravado thing thing with the "I had to show a cop what to do". I have seen some pretty regular folks get retard stupid the second they see me shooting in duty gear.

I actually have had some good experiences shooting with the USPSA/IPSC type guys. Biggest issue for me was my gear set up was not conducive to running that style of game.

My "game" for many years was man on man Steel, especially running falling plates. No running, clearing barricades,mif you had to reload you were screwed anyways. Just a couple second drag race with another shooter. Misses really cost you as I usually shot revolvers and my semi auto was a single stack compensated 1911. You had the ultimate in speed vs. accuracy balance. To me I got the most out of it without causing bad habits at work. Additionally,mthe targets were round steel plates and nothing that looked human. Pure simple technical shooting. It is what I am back to now when I can get the right weekend free or the weather to cooperate.

[SLG]

So what many call a hard break?

A hard break is a pause after shooting and before holstering. Col. Cooper came up with it. How people use it (incorrectly) today, I don't know.

[LSP552]

The simple acts of loading,unloading, loaded chamber verification, etc. Just the process of getting a loaded pistol ready to be cleaned has resulted in numerous deaths. From what I have seen, a majority of this country is unable to SAFELY and competently verify the status of a semi-automatic pistol. Yet, we often ignore administrative handling in our training, and it is often neglected in continuing training. This is why many are so sloppy.

The majority of agency NDs I'm aware of were failures to execute the most basic administrative task of unloading. Some form of distraction was also a common element.

[Dagga Boy]

A hard break is a pause after shooting and before holstering. Col. Cooper came up with it. How people use it (incorrectly) today, I don't know.

I prefer to come to a low ready (if appropriate) and then go to the holster. It gives you a chance to make sure your finger is in register, regain any lost situational awareness and simply breath and assess. One of the big benefits of the Tac reload in my mind is it forces a pause and sort of prepares you to get holstered safely and to ensure you have really made sure the fight is paused or over. Speed holstering is one of my huge pet peeves and short of trying to get a gun out of a fight or gun grab, it is stupid and has no tangible benefit, but adds a ton of unnecessary risk.

[SLG]

I prefer to come to a low ready (if appropriate) and then go to the holster. It gives you a chance to make sure your finger is in register, regain any lost situational awareness and simply breath and assess. One of the big benefits of the Tac reload in my mind is it forces a pause and sort of prepares you to get holstered safely and to ensure you have really made sure the fight is paused or over. Speed holstering is one of my huge pet peeves and short of trying to get a gun out of a fight or gun grab, it is stupid and has no tangible benefit, but adds a ton of unnecessary risk.

That is how Cooper described it, and I certainly agree with you. Good point on the tac load.

[LSP972]

Wouldn't be economically feasible to hold a match for 3 guys.....

Now, that hurt...:D

.

[Dagga Boy]

Now, that hurt...:D

.

Hey, we would be guaranteed a top five finish:D. One of those HK benefits is when I do that tacl-load I guarantee that my finger is off the trigger because I use my trigger finger to activate the magazine release paddle.

[cclaxton]

Not sure. I just know we do a ton of administrative gun handling. The simple acts of loading,unloading, loaded chamber verification, etc. Just the process of getting a loaded pistol ready to be cleaned has resulted in numerous deaths. From what I have seen, a majority of this country is unable to SAFELY and competently verify the status of a semi-automatic pistol. Yet, we often ignore administrative handling in our training, and it is often neglected in continuing training. This is why many are so sloppy. Then we get the folks who are so awesome that they can perform admin tasks with no thought what so ever....they are usually found in the news under "instructor shoots student" headlines. Simply put, I place as much emphasis on how a handle a firearm during routine and mundane tasks as when deploying a firearm in a real world setting or during tactical training. I choose to make a solid effort at doing things right whenever possible. Right is also not the thing where you rapidly retract the slide and catch the round from the chamber in the air....
Darryl,
IDPA SO's should not take the position that they are tactical guru's...unless they really are. When I do my introduction to new shooters, I tell them that IDPA is not tactical training, and is a sport based on simulated self-defense scenarios using handguns commonly available at average prices. I tell them it is an opportunity to practice some basic use of cover and improve their shooting skills while moving and with challenging targets and with non-threats present under the pressure of time. The rules of the sport enforce the use of cover in ways that may or may not be good tactics in a given situation, as all situations will be different. In order to make the sport fair for everyone and able to be judged by Safety Officers cover and priority are given a standard formula. That formula may not apply in a street fight, depending on the situation.

Safety Officers are given the responsibility to enforce the rules of the sport and they can sometimes try to explain why a certain use of cover or priority is necessary and be outside their area of knowledge. One of the things that has improved in the new rule-making is explanations of why they made decisions the way they did. We may not agree with the rule but at least we know it wasn't arbitrary and there was some basis for it. I would like to see more of that so that it clears up the many questions we have to field from new shooters.

The reason I am a supporter of IDPA is that I see the difference it makes when new/novice shooters start shooting IDPA. And, we see a lot of new shooters. The more we provide a good experience for new shooters, the better it is for all shooting sports, the improvement in shooter's skills, and for the advancement of gun rights. IDPA also helps to feed dedicated shooters to USPSA and Steel Challenge, and to take tactical classes to learn real tactics.

What you may have experienced is IDPA Safety Officers simply trying to explain the rules of the game. If they went outside their area of expertise, I suggest taking them aside and kindly suggesting that they should refrain from speaking outside their area of expertise and taking a real tactical class so they can speak with more authority on the matter. I have a whole new understanding of use of cover after taking John Holschon's Optimizing Cover class at Rangemaster. And, I have been designing new IDPA stages and targets with hard cover to simulate the challenges of use of cover. I will be running these stages at the WV State Championship.
Cody

[ST911]

My "game" for many years was man on man Steel, especially running falling plates. No running, clearing barricades,mif you had to reload you were screwed anyways. Just a couple second drag race with another shooter. Misses really cost you as I usually shot revolvers and my semi auto was a single stack compensated 1911. You had the ultimate in speed vs. accuracy balance. To me I got the most out of it without causing bad habits at work. Additionally,mthe targets were round steel plates and nothing that looked human. Pure simple technical shooting. It is what I am back to now when I can get the right weekend free or the weather to cooperate.

Same here. It's also interesting to see the differences in score sheets between run-and-gun and man v man when the playing field is leveled a bit.

[Mr_White]

The big one (there were a couple) was that I engaged a hostile first and then the hostage taker. My experience has been that when people take hostages,they want to live (versus the human shield that is a thread all it's own). The guy with no hostage has nothing to lose and to me is a bigger threat, and it was a closer target. I took the non-hostage taker first and then head shot the hostage taker. Guy running the stage gave me a bunch of crap about "tactical order" or some crap.

That's definitely one of the problems with a game trying to write 'proper' tactics into the rules. Sometimes those 'proper' tactics are gonna be wrong.


Again, looking back, I was probably wrong for approaching their game with an intent to make it some constructive training for myself. If I wanted to participate in their sport, I should have conformed to the rules of the sport.


So, I have admitted that trying to apply solid street procedures to a game is not a good path, would the opposite also maybe have some merit?

It's not always easy being a timmy, particularly in trying to find a competition that doesn't fly in the face of timmydom. I think you are/were on a good track with man-on-man steel (which is excellent.) USPSA also can't be beat for the rules allowing you to address the problem the way you want.

I don't really disagree that as a practical matter, you pretty much have to take it or leave it when it comes to a given game with a given rule set. That may include taking your lumps in terms of penalties under certain rules. I think having to endure lecturing about tactics crosses the line.

But I definitely don't think it is wrong to want to do things 'your way' in competition. It is pretty vexing when a competition attempts to be tactically correct, yet in some instances is the opposite (your hostage taker/engagement order example, disallowing WMLs, lasers, MRDS, AIWB, lanyards/rings on flashlights, etc.) Narrowminded rules cause me personally to reject that competition and find one that isn't so prescriptive.

Competitive shooting doesn't lend itself nearly as well to measuring tactics as it does to measuring accuracy and time. I'd rather a competition stick to what it can do well.

[Chuck Haggard]

Sometimes I take a COF and do what I am going to do, even if it costs me time.

I've seen several IDPA COF where the scenario is you have to shoot the first targets, then run down a hallway, then shoot some more targets. I refuse to sprint down a hallway in such a scenario, so I lose time. So what?

One of the things I do at matches is look at where I lose time, and if I am good with that or not. Sometimes this is on video so I get to see what and how I am doing.

Lots of gamers look at things like 1 second or less on the draw. If we look at what is possible from game guns, holsters and clothing, vs what is typically possible in real world gear like level 3 duty holsters or draws from real concealment, we can look at where we gain or lose time. One of the retarded things I see with the gamers bashing on "timmies" is them not taking this into account. "That guy only has a 1.5 second draw time..." type commentary. This sort of thing shows a real lack of ability to analyse the problem.

[GJM]

Interesting, because I find a lot more focus on draw speed on PF than in USPSA or IDPA. Given the number of shots in a typical course of fire on a USPSA field course, and the variety of different start positions, the draw is essentially irrelevant. Many of my highly ranked USPSA friends have a glacial draw. Partly because they don't practice it, and partly because the consequences of a bad grip are too severe. I would think man on man steel, would be more draw intensive? Also, the way to have a fast draw is to cheat on the stop and aim part, which does nothing to help games scored with hit factor.

I think the main reason gamers rag on timmies is because some hide behind "tactics" to excuse their poor performance on an apples to apples basis. I think Surf has it just right -- when gaming, game to your best. And, I don't think because someone shoots a white piece of cardboard, like it is, well, just a white piece of cardboard, means someone will muzzle a non threat person in real life. Or charge down a hall, reloading in the open, means they would do the same in real life. As soon as you introduce a timer, it is a game.

[Mr_White]

Interesting, because I find a lot more focus on draw speed on PF than in USPSA or IDPA. Given the number of shots in a typical course of fire on a USPSA field course, and the variety of different start positions, the draw is essentially irrelevant. Many of my highly ranked USPSA friends have a glacial draw. Partly because they don't practice it, and partly because the consequences of a bad grip are too severe. I would think man on man steel, would be more draw intensive? Also, the way to have a fast draw is to cheat on the stop and aim part, which does nothing to help games scored with hit factor.

I think the main reason gamers rag on timmies is because some hide behind "tactics" to excuse their poor performance on an apples to apples basis. I think Surf has it just right -- when gaming, game to your best. And, I don't think because someone shoots a white piece of cardboard, like it is, well, just a white piece of cardboard, means someone will muzzle a non threat person in real life. Or charge down a hall, reloading in the open, means they would do the same in real life. As soon as you introduce a timer, it is a game.

Totally agree.

My draw is much more important from a self-defense perspective than a USPSA perspective.

[Chuck Haggard]

Just going off of recent comments I have read elsewhere.

[Mr_White]

Just going off of recent comments I have read elsewhere.

I don't doubt you - there are plenty of reasons/excuses for one group to rag on another. The one George cited is pretty classic though.

[Mr_White]

Next week I am going to work on setting up the high speed video for myself, but what you are doing with your finger is what I predict I am going to see. Guess I will find out though!

Got everything worked out with the high speed camera and came up with this. Looks like my finger is on the trigger as the hands join. I am ok with this. I don't think I would be ok with earlier than this.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rc7s-z7RBw&feature=youtu.be

[Chuck Haggard]

On the first reload it looked like you triggered the shot while still trying to slide the weak hand into final position. Was that a good hit?

[Mr_White]

Yep, lower A-zone hit at 7 yards. I think my hands are in position, but I am definitely firing before the gun has stopped moving since it's good enough to hit that target at that distance.

[Chuck Haggard]

Yep, lower A-zone hit at 7 yards. I think my hands are in position, but I am definitely firing before the gun has stopped moving since it's good enough to hit that target at that distance.

I was guessing so, but was curious.