A good read for those who need such info; Taser use on excited delirium subjects

[Chuck Haggard]

Civil Liability Law Section – April 2015
Use of an Electronic Control Weapon
on a Person Suffering from
Delirium or Other Agitated Condition
Part 2


http://www.aele.org/law/2015all04/2015-04MLJ101.pdf

[BaiHu]

If people "cuff up" and "lawyer up" they probably would never be in these situations. Maybe I don't get it or maybe I just don't feel like arguing with the guy holding the gun and backed by arresting powers.

[Drifting Fate]

"Cuff up and lawyer up" is good advice for those with a deep pocket book. For the rest of us, the Taser is still the worst civil rights violation since Rosa Parks had to make the choice to sit at the front of the bus.

[MDS]

"Cuff up and lawyer up" is good advice for those with a deep pocket book.

It sounds like you're saying that resisting arrest is good advice for those without deep pockets. Please clarify how that's not what you're saying because otherwise that is not only stupid, dangerous, illegal advice, but recommending it is against the rules here.


For the rest of us, the Taser is still the worst civil rights violation since Rosa Parks had to make the choice to sit at the front of the bus.

How can a tool be a civil rights violation? The bus wasn't what Rosa Parks was protesting, it was the racist way the bus was used. Are you saying that tasers are generally used in a racist way? Here again, please clarify how this isn't what you're saying, because race-baiting comments designed to manufacture an emotional response aren't OK here, either.

[Hambo]

If people "cuff up" and "lawyer up" they probably would never be in these situations. Maybe I don't get it or maybe I just don't feel like arguing with the guy holding the gun and backed by arresting powers.

As far as not resisting arrest: alcohol, drugs, and mental problems. Not lawyering up: same, plus stupidity.

[Coyotesfan97]

My Taser at my Department is the same level of force as my PR24. So if I can tase you I can hit you with a baton. Which would you prefer us to use Drifting?

[Chuck Haggard]

"Cuff up and lawyer up" is good advice for those with a deep pocket book. For the rest of us, the Taser is still the worst civil rights violation since Rosa Parks had to make the choice to sit at the front of the bus.

You clearly have zero idea what you are talking about when it comes to use of the Taser.


On the wider subject, it's not a matter of "go along with the nice officer" when a person is in the middle of an excited delirium episode, they are quite literally out of their minds at that point.

[BaiHu]

*SNIP*

On the wider subject, it's not a matter of "go along with the nice officer" when a person is in the middle of an excited delirium episode, they are quite literally out of their minds at that point.

This is the most difficult "situation" I've come across in teaching martial arts:

A student of mine is an EMT.

Gets calls on EDPs, drunks or diabetics in near coma like conditions (that's how you refer to that, right?)

Cops show up late or don't really want the hassle.

My student, who is 6'4" gets all eyeballs on him.

How on earth do you take care to not injure someone you are trying to get hospitalized who a) isn't interested in going, b) is willing to fight you to the death and b) is not rational/logical?

If the cops won't jump in, I told him to sit and wait until they do. Correct?

Sorry for thread drift.

[Chuck Haggard]

This is the most difficult "situation" I've come across in teaching martial arts:

A student of mine is an EMT.

Gets calls on EDPs, drunks or diabetics in near coma like conditions (that's how you refer to that, right?)

Cops show up late or don't really want the hassle.

My student, who is 6'4" gets all eyeballs on him.

How on earth do you take care to not injure someone you are trying to get hospitalized who a) isn't interested in going, b) is willing to fight you to the death and b) is not rational/logical?

If the cops won't jump in, I told him to sit and wait until they do. Correct?

Sorry for thread drift.

Excited delirium is a bit different than a person in other types of delirium. But yes, my advice would be to not lay hands on a dude in the middle of ExD without a LOT of help.

[BaiHu]

Thanks for that Chuck!

[TGS]

This is the most difficult "situation" I've come across in teaching martial arts:

A student of mine is an EMT.

Gets calls on EDPs, drunks or diabetics in near coma like conditions (that's how you refer to that, right?)

Cops show up late or don't really want the hassle.

My student, who is 6'4" gets all eyeballs on him.

How on earth do you take care to not injure someone you are trying to get hospitalized who a) isn't interested in going, b) is willing to fight you to the death and b) is not rational/logical?

If the cops won't jump in, I told him to sit and wait until they do. Correct?

Sorry for thread drift.

I would refrain from even touching on the subject and giving advice beyond the "sit and wait for LE" words you already gave him. There are legalities about this aspect of patient care. You dont want a battery, assault or false imprisonment case coming back to "my martial arts instructor told me to do this."

Nor should an EMT be applying things he learned in a dojo to caring for a mentally incompetent person. He should be fired and stripped of his certification if that's the case....and if NJ DoH ever finds out, he absolutely will be.

[Hambo]

This is the most difficult "situation" I've come across in teaching martial arts:

A student of mine is an EMT.

Gets calls on EDPs, drunks or diabetics in near coma like conditions (that's how you refer to that, right?)

Cops show up late or don't really want the hassle.

My student, who is 6'4" gets all eyeballs on him.

How on earth do you take care to not injure someone you are trying to get hospitalized who a) isn't interested in going, b) is willing to fight you to the death and b) is not rational/logical?

If the cops won't jump in, I told him to sit and wait until they do. Correct?

Sorry for thread drift.

Unless someone attacks him, in which case he can defend himself. In the past there was a portion of paramedic training on how to handle resistant/violent persons and not injure them. To me it looked like tactics developed by someone who never had to wrestle a crazy person. I do know that for anyone cuffed by LE and transported by EMS, an officer had to ride along.

[BaiHu]

I would refrain from even touching on the subject and giving advice beyond the "sit and wait for LE" words you already gave him. There are legalities about this aspect of patient care. You dont want a battery, assault or false imprisonment case coming back to "my martial arts instructor told me to do this."

Nor should an EMT be applying things he learned in a dojo to caring for a mentally incompetent person. He should be fired and stripped of his certification if that's the case....and if NJ DoH ever finds out, he absolutely will be.


Unless someone attacks him, in which case he can defend himself. In the past there was a portion of paramedic training on how to handle resistant/violent persons and not injure them. To me it looked like tactics developed by someone who never had to wrestle a crazy person. I do know that for anyone cuffed by LE and transported by EMS, an officer had to ride along.
Exactly on all points. I had no interest in wading into that eff fest. For one, I was surprised at how poorly the cops worked with his squad in this manner and two, I'm surprised there wasn't a clear understanding from the EMT side. Or maybe there was and everyone wanted to play dumb.

[Sigfan26]

I just want to throw this out there. Doesn't the taser have less long term effects than an ASP or Mace?

[Hambo]

Exactly on all points. I had no interest in wading into that eff fest. For one, I was surprised at how poorly the cops worked with his squad in this manner and two, I'm surprised there wasn't a clear understanding from the EMT side. Or maybe there was and everyone wanted to play dumb.

I should have said in my reply, "where I worked." The FD-EMS medical director got a bug up his bunghole about positional asphyxia and decreed that the medics would not transport anyone face down (previous to this the preferred position was handcuffed face down, head of cot jacked up a bit) or in cuffs in any position unless a copper rode along. The fire chief talked to the police chief, and policy was born. I have no idea if that type of policy is widespread or not.

The relationship between police and fire or police and EMS varies by location and agency.

[stingray]

"Cuff up and lawyer up" is good advice for those with a deep pocket book. For the rest of us, the Taser is still the worst civil rights violation since Rosa Parks had to make the choice to sit at the front of the bus.

Maybe, just maybe the criminal has something to do with a tazer being deployed...........

[stingray]

I just want to throw this out there. Doesn't the taser have less long term effects than an ASP or Mace?

Yes it does. It also has less short term effect that either the ASP or spray.

[Chuck Haggard]

I just want to throw this out there. Doesn't the taser have less long term effects than an ASP or Mace?

Yes, once the Taser stops the effects stop.

[Surf]

I'd rather ride the lightning for 5 seconds and be done with it, than take a good inhalation dose of the hot sauce. I actually feel pretty darn relaxed post taser, kind of like a deep tissue massage as opposed to feeling the burn or residual effects of OC for an hour or more. We note a lot less trauma injuries in arrests since the adoption of the taser. From my side of the house we see incidents that may have resulted in a "call-out" that were resolved at the patrol level because of the taser. The taser has provided an option that in my mind has saved the lives of officers and those being tased.

We have also had instances of ED and PA, one fairly recent. We do provide quite a bit of training on the topic of excited delirium and positional asphyxia and it is blocks of lecture and practical in not just the academy, but in annual recall training. Definitely a topic that LE needs to get training in.

Thanks for the link Chuck. Good list of case law.