Discuss: Safety

[ToddG]

http://pistol-training.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/bad-touch.jpg

What are the odds he was called?

What are the odds his safety is on?

What are the odds his trigger weighs more than 2.5#?

[breakingtime91]

None

It is not on from what I can call

pretty likely.


great example of poor gun handling.

[Totem Polar]

The game becomes the map that becomes the territory.

[Lomshek]

What are the odds he was bringing the gun up onto a target as he clears the barricade (that whole speed over safety thing Nyeti correctly harps on) and his trigger finger is not in the view of the RO so a call can't be made anyway at that moment?

As a USPSA RO/MD if I DQ'd every participant I saw for movement with finger on trigger or reload with finger on trigger I'd shoot alone pretty quick. My definition of "on" is a lot more unforgiving than many.

The #1 response is "It wasn't ON the trigger" (1/4" of air is enough for some and USPSA rules don't stipulate a hard frame index just "visibly outside of the trigger guard" which is not always so easy to spot as in the photo) or "No it wasn't" (and I truly believe they don't consciously register their finger position which means they truly think they are being wronged vs. a 180 violation they know they committed). The fact that the offense can happen for 1/4 of a second or less and the angle I need to get a for sure view is borderline dangerous for me as well doesn't make the call any easier to make (I'd bet the photo was taken with a remote camera as no one would want to be at that angle relative to the shooter).

None of that gets into the question of was the gun being brought up onto target in the photo and/or completely out of view of the RO. Nyeti has said (and he's right) that a lot of decisions in competitive shooting are made in favor of speed over safety like when exactly one gets onto the trigger during target acquisition. The fact that we're running fast with hot guns trying to shave tenths off our time and at the limits of our ability to shoot fast doesn't help the trigger discipline decision process.

If I had a set of the video camera glasses that record my exact POV then the replay would at least eliminate the debate and get through some folks defenses. Between the very tight angles, fraction of a second and movement it's very hard to make a positive call.

Here's how it usually pans out.

Me - "You were running with your finger on the trigger."

Them - "The gun was indexed on the next target and I was bringing it up for sight alignment as I took my last three steps and besides it only looked like that to you, my finger was actually 1/16" outside of the trigger guard but still in line with the trigger so you were mistaken."

[Slavex]

In IPSC the first thing I would take into consideration is, how many steps has he taken? More than 1 step, and truly off target, he's done. But from this photo, I can't call anything. He is still up high enough that he could be indexing onto a target, so even the more than 1 step thing would be up in the air, as it's ok to move with the finger in the trigger so long as you are actually shooting at or aiming at targets.
per, 8.5.1
Except when the competitor is actually aiming or shooting at targets,all movement must be accomplished with the fingers visibly outside the trigger guard and the external safety should be applied. The firearm must be pointed in a safe direction.

I've seen the argument made that one doesn't need to be using the sights to be actually aiming at a target (if it's close enough and so on).
This is the rules of the game. And pictures like this don't really tell us much.

[BaiHu]

My experience is very limited in competition (mainly time, money or both lately), but I have to present a few questions/statements first:

1) if you have an RDS, can you even be 'on sight/s' at that angle? Does the muzzle 'count' in a rule book somewhere?
2) without knowing where the target is, I'd say this is hard to judge if he's just about to point shoot on a target 3 feet away.
3) given the angle of his muzzle, can that finger position ever be considered safe? If he pulled the trigger at that freeze frame, it looks like he'd be shooting over his head in probably another yard or so.
4) if the rule isn't a hard index on the frame, then you are opening the circle of safety to too wide of a margin IMO. However, without high end technology or inviting the drone club over to monitor, I don't see how you catch this consistently enough to enforce it fairly (there's that 'f' word again).

Lastly, what is the point of having hair triggers in a sport with people running around? I could make a counter argument to race car driving and leave it at that...but seriously, even when a car crashes in a closed track, conceivably there is at least a semi-conscious guy in somewhat control of the projectile here and they rarely go up and over a safety wall and into a neighboring house, nuclear power plant, etc. On the other hand, once a round is fired at the angle presented in this picture, there's no 'safety' that will minimize the damage caused by this discharged round.

[olstyn]

4) if the rule isn't a hard index on the frame, then you are opening the circle of safety to too wide of a margin IMO.

Changing the rule to the way you seem to want it would require an exemption for paddle mag release pistols, like recent Walther & HK offerings, so that their users could reload while moving without being in violation. (I use my trigger finger to actuate that type of mag release.)

Even absent that concern, I agree with you that enforcement would be problematic at best. I've seen ROs miss calls like that before, usually due to viewing angles where I could see it happening and they couldn't. At least once, it was a new shooter running with his finger inside the trigger guard, so I gently mentioned to him after his run that he had been doing it and that he would probably want to be careful to avoid it in the future. Thankfully, he either took it well or just didn't feel like starting a fight about it.

Regarding the picture Todd started the thread with, I think it's hard to come to any definitive conclusions without another angle, or at least a course diagram with his position marked on it. As it is, we really can't see what's in front of the shooter. As others have said, he may driving the gun toward a target that's visible just past the edge of the barrier.

[BigT]

. And pictures like this don't really tell us much.



This.


One frame taken out of context gives very little detail. Just like the guys bitching about high muzzles or fingers on trigger before full extension in a press out type draw

[Peally]

Agreed on not enough info. I know if someone took a snapshot of me shooting depending on the angle people may be flailing in horror. I certainly don't place my finger along the frame for every single little transition (although I do shoot DA/SA, I can't speak strictly for open shooters)

[ToddG]

One frame taken out of context gives very little detail. Just like the guys bitching about high muzzles or fingers on trigger before full extension in a press out type draw

Wow.

Here's what I can tell from that one frame: his finger is on the trigger while his sights aren't on the target.

For everyone who is justifying this because: game, all that does is reinforce the idea that these games are giving up cardinal safety procedures for the sake of speed & fun.

[BaiHu]

Changing the rule to the way you seem to want it would require an exemption for paddle mag release pistols, like recent Walther & HK offerings, so that their users could reload while moving without being in violation. (I use my trigger finger to actuate that type of mag release.)

Even absent that concern, I agree with you that enforcement would be problematic at best. I've seen ROs miss calls like that before, usually due to viewing angles where I could see it happening and they couldn't. At least once, it was a new shooter running with his finger inside the trigger guard, so I gently mentioned to him after his run that he had been doing it and that he would probably want to be careful to avoid it in the future. Thankfully, he either took it well or just didn't feel like starting a fight about it.

Regarding the picture Todd started the thread with, I think it's hard to come to any definitive conclusions without another angle, or at least a course diagram with his position marked on it. As it is, we really can't see what's in front of the shooter. As others have said, he may driving the gun toward a target that's visible just past the edge of the barrier.
As an HK shooter, I should've thought about that, but aren't you muzzle skyward and at slidelock when most reload? I know, stage planning and all but....these are things your RSO should know when you step up to the COF, right? Meaning NOTE: this guy has a paddle mag release gun.

Wow.

Here's what I can tell from that one frame: his finger is on the trigger while his sights aren't on the target.

For everyone who is justifying this because: game, all that does is reinforce the idea that these games are giving up cardinal safety procedures for the sake of speed & fun.
^^ This, which is why I brought up the car analogy. Why are we taking a ragged thin edge experience (specifically race guns) and making it a bit more "edgy" with hair triggers and "meh" attitude towards the 4 rules of safe gun handling?

[jetfire]

http://pistol-training.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/bad-touch.jpg

What are the odds he was called?

What are the odds his safety is on?

What are the odds his trigger weighs more than 2.5#?

Zero.
Zero.
Zero.

I don't understand how this thread is so long.

[Mr_White]

http://pistol-training.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/bad-touch.jpg

What are the odds he was called?

What are the odds his safety is on?

What are the odds his trigger weighs more than 2.5#?

Is there a video of this person shooting this stage, or a still photo of him firing the gun subsequent to the one posted?

[ToddG]

I have no idea. This photo was on a manufacturer's website promoting a product. "Safe gun handling" is clearly not the product.

[nwhpfan]

Can't tell from the angle....

If the gun is pointed at the wall, it is unsafe and DQ.

If the gun is away from the wall and moving to a target; not a DQ per USPSA rules.

The later is a question of being early on the trigger.

USPSA the rules are about the finger being in the trigger guard - it doesn't have to be "on" the trigger.

[olstyn]

As an HK shooter, I should've thought about that, but aren't you muzzle skyward and at slidelock when most reload?

Muzzle skyward, sure, but almost never at slidelock; in USPSA, if you're reloading at slidelock, it usually means you've screwed up your stage plan and/or had to take extra shots due to misses, which amounts to the same thing. Target arrays tend to need between 4 and 8 shots per, and production guns are allowed to hold 10+1. As a result, it's quite common to drop partial mags while running between arrays.

[rdtompki]

....
Except when the competitor is actually aiming or shooting at targets,all movement must be accomplished with the fingers visibly outside the trigger guard and the external safety should be applied. The firearm must be pointed in a safe direction.....

If this is true in IPSC/USPSA does the requirement to engage the external safety when not aiming/shooting cross over to the one steel challenge stage that requires movement? Not a bad idea.

[Dagga Boy]

As I have said before, the only rule I have seen taken seriously in the competitive arena is not breaking the 180. Anything else is pretty much voluntary on the part of the shooter. It no longer bothers me as I shoot very little competition and the one venue I am shooting is low risk for me and I voluntarily choose to utilize non-range safety protocols. Most others don't. I just wish folks would quit pretending and just say "don't break the 180 and don't shoot yourself".

[Trooper224]

Go ahead and try to excuse it with all the gamer rules you want folks. The fact is this: at that moment he's not actively shooting his space gun and his finger's on the trigger, or so close as to amount to the same thing..........F-A-I-L.

[BaiHu]

Muzzle skyward, sure, but almost never at slidelock; in USPSA, if you're reloading at slidelock, it usually means you've screwed up your stage plan and/or had to take extra shots due to misses, which amounts to the same thing. Target arrays tend to need between 4 and 8 shots per, and production guns are allowed to hold 10+1. As a result, it's quite common to drop partial mags while running between arrays.
Gamer I is not. Obviously [emoji12]

[nwhpfan]

Go ahead and try to excuse it with all the gamer rules you want folks. The fact is this: at that moment he's not actively shooting his space gun and his finger's on the trigger, or so close as to amount to the same thing..........F-A-I-L.

So what's your call? Unsafe? If so why?

Not talking about any game rules; when is it OK to put your finger in the trigger guard as far as you are concerned? When the gun is on target? At eye level? What?

[Lomshek]

Wow.

Here's what I can tell from that one frame: his finger is on the trigger while his sights aren't on the target. Absolutely but can the RO see that?

For everyone who is justifying this because: game, all that does is reinforce the idea that these games are giving up cardinal safety procedures for the sake of speed & fun.No justification just the understanding that especially when the shooter is running like he is it's impossible for the RO to even see the trigger finger to make such a call. To try and move in advance of the shooter without getting downrange of the muzzle or in the shooter's way is just about impossible.

If one could have 6 RO's on a stage and post them at various strategic positions behind bullet proof glass with hi-def, high speed video cameras and telephoto lenses for a clear view of the trigger guard then the call would be easy. Lots of times my view of the trigger guard is obscured by the shooter's body, hand, angle of my relative position to them, angle the pistol is held during reload and much more. There are plenty of times I suspect that the finger is on the trigger but very few when I can unequivocally say it was on the trigger.


As I have said before, the only rule I have seen taken seriously in the competitive arena is not breaking the 180. Anything else is pretty much voluntary on the part of the shooter. It no longer bothers me as I shoot very little competition and the one venue I am shooting is low risk for me and I voluntarily choose to utilize non-range safety protocols. Most others don't. I just wish folks would quit pretending and just say "don't break the 180 and don't shoot yourself".Really this is what the RO can enforce most times especially when dealing with a fast shooter. On a new slow shooter I can track their trigger finger pretty easily because all their movements are slow, for a faster shooting A-class (or even C) shooter it becomes much harder as seconds become tenths and walking turns into running.

I don't have an easy answer just making an observation from my viewpoint.

[Slavex]

based on that photo he could easily be pressing the gun out onto a target and is prepping. I see nothing wrong at all.
In some countries we have to reload with the muzzle flat, can't point over berms, even at slidelock, or else it's a DQ, other countries it doesn't matter.

[BigT]

Wow.

Here's what I can tell from that one frame: his finger is on the trigger while his sights aren't on the target.

For everyone who is justifying this because: game, all that does is reinforce the idea that these games are giving up cardinal safety procedures for the sake of speed & fun.


But I can't tell from the frame if his gun is in the process indexing out to a target. It could easily be the equivalent of a prepping on a press out. It could also be pointing over the berm in a very unsafe manner. I dunno , I just have one out of context picture to work with.

[ToddG]

But I can't tell from the frame if his gun is in the process indexing out to a target. It could easily be the equivalent of a prepping on a press out.

Beyond contact distance, if someone's finger is on the trigger before he can visually verify alignment on the target it's wrong whether it's in a game or otherwise.

This, to me, is the biggest problem with the whole "180 degrees of safety" concept. It leads people to become laissez-faire about what would otherwise be obvious safety rules. Hell, this photo was used to advertise a product because the game has become so inured to bad trigger finger discipline that it's not just ignored, it's accepted and people even try to justify it. As long as the gun is pointed in the pretend "safe" direction, everything is forgiven.

Competitive shooters like to pat themselves on the back for being so much safer than other gun owners. It's something I've even said myself many times. But the more I look around, the more I see a decline in the standards that used to make those competitive guys so safe. There are still all the same rules, but most of them are little more than words in a book so long as the muzzle is always pointed at the "correct" half of the planet.

[Chris Rhines]

based on that photo he could easily be pressing the gun out onto a target and is prepping. I see nothing wrong at all.
In some countries we have to reload with the muzzle flat, can't point over berms, even at slidelock, or else it's a DQ, other countries it doesn't matter.
He is. I'm pretty sure I recognize that stage from Southern Utah Practical Shooters. There's a target directly in front of the shooter, about six feet distant.

If we're going to condemn a shooter as being unsafe, we should probably take care to have all the relevant information.

[BigT]

He is. I'm pretty sure I recognize that stage from Southern Utah Practical Shooters. There's a target directly in front of the shooter, about six feet distant.

If we're going to condemn a shooter as being unsafe, we should probably take care to have all the relevant information.

Should this be the case then it wouldn't seem to require panic or condemnation.

Ive fired shots from various degrees of extension often. None were unsafe at all I, if you will forgive the cliche, "saw what I needed to see" to make the hit. If his target is that close he can probably fire the shot and get an adequate hit from were he is.

Just like with shooting from a No2 doesn't really allow you to visually verify the sights, but you know exactly where the gun is pointing and where the bullet would go if you were to fire. I realise that we would normally shoot from a No2 at contact distance but the principle remains. On ECQC we also shot from a No3. I knew where my gun was pointing without being at eye level.

[cclaxton]

Context is important, but the fact that the muzzle is tilted slightly up and the finger is inside the trigger guard, means a FINGER call is appropriate. There are times that a really close target doesn't need a full sight picture, but those targets would be lower to the ground and would not require a muzzle tilted up. And, I don't think that is inherently unsafe, but the finger control should still be there.

Where I see most of the finger violations is during reloading. And, as an SO/RO trying to get my eyes on the trigger finger during a reload can be challenging. One time I gave a guy a finger call on a stage during a reload and he shook his head in disbelief. The very next stage he got to low cover and a reload and I yelled STOP!. He froze and I said, "Look down at your gun." His was in the middle of a reload and the gun was laying sideways and you could plainly see his finger on the trigger. I said, "Do you see your finger?" It was ONLY THEN that he realized what he was doing.

Malfunction clearance is another time when I see it more often. Talk about one of the worst times. I really do wish anything other than a tap/rack would require a STOP and resolve. Then a reshoot. (Unless you are teaching a class on malfunction clearance, which would be an exception, of course.)

The answer is DON'T BE AFRAID TO CALL IT!!!
Cody

[joshs]

Context is important, but the fact that the muzzle is tilted slightly up and the finger is inside the trigger guard, means a FINGER call is appropriate.

There is no warning in USPSA once an actual violation occurs. Warnings can be issued when a competitor appears to be about to violate a safety rule, but I've only ever seen this with the 180 rule.

[cclaxton]

There is no warning in USPSA once an actual violation occurs. Warnings can be issued when a competitor appears to be about to violate a safety rule, but I've only ever seen this with the 180 rule.
I do like the IDPA rule...you get a warning. If it is clearly unsafe, then we have the DQ available.
So, don't give me the timer at a USPSA match....I WILL call it.
Cody

[cclaxton]

In USPSA: "8.5 Movement8.5.1 Except when the competitor is actually aiming or shooting at targets, all movement (see Appendix A3) must be accomplished with the fingers visibly outside the trigger guard and the safety should be engaged. The handgun must be pointed in a safe direction."

Does this mean a competitor can be DQ'd for not engaging a safety while moving from one target to another? It uses the word "should." Does that make it unenforceable?
Cody

[joshs]

It uses the word "should." Does that make it unenforceable?

Yes. I've always assumed they did that for liability purposes because NROI/USPSA BoD knows that is actually considered to be "best practice" in the industry, but it's also extremely difficult to enforce.

[PPGMD]

In some countries we have to reload with the muzzle flat, can't point over berms, even at slidelock, or else it's a DQ, other countries it doesn't matter.

I had a RO that came to Frostproof for the World Shoot yell at me about my muzzle up reloads. When there was no such rule authorized for the range.

As far as the photo, I agree with others context is important for all we know he is getting on the trigger as he is aligning to the target, the same way that I would do it on a production gun.

I will admit, it is hard to see finger violations that don't involve a reload or long stage movement. But based on what I see at average gun range, the safety at USPSA/IPSC events is heads and tails better than the safety of the average gun owner. Even more so when you consider how often, and how we handle our guns.

[cclaxton]

I had a RO that came to Frostproof for the World Shoot yell at me about my muzzle up reloads. When there was no such rule authorized for the range.

As far as the photo, I agree with others context is important for all we know he is getting on the trigger as he is aligning to the target, the same way that I would do it on a production gun.

I will admit, it is hard to see finger violations that don't involve a reload or long stage movement. But based on what I see at average gun range, the safety at USPSA/IPSC events is heads and tails better than the safety of the average gun owner. Even more so when you consider how often, and how we handle our guns.
So, would you feel unfairly judged if someone called Finger on you and you were DQ'd while doing this move?

It still seems to me to be just as fast to have good finger discipline. But I am not a master shooter, either.
Cody

[waktasz]

Seems to me this shooter has planted his outside foot and is presenting the gun to a target. The gun is going to be aimed and a shot squeezed off within a few tenths of a second from when this photo was taken. The decision has already been made to shoot. He's not room clearing in a hostage situation here...

[cclaxton]

Seems to me this shooter has planted his outside foot and is presenting the gun to a target. The gun is going to be aimed and a shot squeezed off within a few tenths of a second from when this photo was taken. The decision has already been made to shoot. He's not room clearing in a hostage situation here...
does TPOG not engage the trigger shortly after the nose pick stage of the press out?
I would agree with you if it were not for the muzzle being tilted up. The upward tilted muzzle with a finger on the trigger is a big no-no at every range I know.
Cody

[waktasz]

I would agree with you if it were not for the muzzle being tilted up. The upward tilted muzzle with a finger on the trigger is a big no-no at every range I know.
Cody

Completely agree. This guy and anyone like him should be eliminated from our ranks.

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff242/Rob377/TPOG_zpsijrezngk.jpg

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff242/Rob377/TPOG2_zpsjdjjnuil.jpg

[BaiHu]

I think what Cody is saying is that the muzzle is up, finger on trigger and no eyes on sights in the photo that started this thread. Todd obviously has eyes on at least the front sight here.

[cclaxton]

Completely agree. This guy and anyone like him should be eliminated from our ranks.

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff242/Rob377/TPOG_zpsijrezngk.jpg

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff242/Rob377/TPOG2_zpsjdjjnuil.jpg
I don't think this is the same thing. This appears to be the shooter in-between shots with recoil pushing the muzzle up, or in the middle of pushing out with eyes on sights. There is a difference. The guy in the picture is not shooting. There are plenty of pictures of people with their fingers on the trigger while shooting...the issue is when they are not.
Cody

[Ben B]

I don't think this is the same thing. This appears to be the shooter in-between shots, with recoil pushing the muzzle up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzZBiYV4vk4&t=15

[joshs]

Completely agree. This guy and anyone like him should be eliminated from our ranks.

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff242/Rob377/TPOG_zpsijrezngk.jpg

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff242/Rob377/TPOG2_zpsjdjjnuil.jpg

If you can't discuss this topic without personally attacking other members, don't post.

[PPGMD]

So, would you feel unfairly judged if someone called Finger on you and you were DQ'd while doing this move?

It still seems to me to be just as fast to have good finger discipline. But I am not a master shooter, either.

Again it depends on context. For all we know his finger only went on the trigger was he was setting up on a target that we can't see. The gun isn't tilted too far up to not be a press out on the target.

As long as he was actively moving the gun toward a target it is perfectly acceptable within the rules. Just like during target transitions.

[cclaxton]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzZBiYV4vk4&t=15
The actual video shows the first shooter doing exactly what is needed: his finger can be on the trigger while his sights are on the target. As soon as he does a reload, his finger is off the trigger. Shooter B (red ears) actually has his finger in the trigger guard for a split second while initiating a reload, but then pulls his finger out as required.
But this is not the same as what is in the picture. In the picture the shooter is not actively engaging a target because no close in target would be set so high as to require the muzzle to be tilted up while engaging it...at least if the Match Dir knows what he is doing.
Cody

[PPGMD]

If you can't discuss this topic without personally attacking other members, don't post.

That is hardly a personal attack, I read it more as sarcasm. In fact he has a point, getting your finger on the trigger with the muzzle pointed that far up is just as dangerous as what Todd posted.

[cclaxton]

Again it depends on context. For all we know his finger only went on the trigger was he was setting up on a target that we can't see. The gun isn't tilted too far up to not be a press out on the target.

As long as he was actively moving the gun toward a target it is perfectly acceptable within the rules. Just like during target transitions.
Well, I agree context is missing, and more info is needed. But I don't see his gun up high enough to be actually sighting the gun and therefore justify the finger.
Cody

[PPGMD]

Well, I agree context is missing, and more info is needed. But I don't see his gun up high enough to be actually sighting the gun and therefore justify the finger.

I certainly wouldn't get it on the trigger that early except for a double action press out, but to me he looks like he is setting up on a target and thus it is allowed within the rule as I understand them.

And if I were the shooter and you called me on it, I would appeal it.

[Carnifex]

It's easy to sit back and arm chair quarterback a moment that lasted a tenth of a second in real time. I would bet just about everyone here has gotten heir finger in the trigger guard during a press out or when transitioning quickly. A 30 second Google search found multiple examples of other top shooters in compromising positions.

http://i.imgur.com/IOewdwWl.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/3mtrGEG.jpg

First 20 seconds of this video
http://youtu.be/6_W2w0oBwb8

The first video of Todd I pulled up had questionable fingers as well. It's a nature of the beast when shooting fast and somethig we should all be more aware of.


http://i.imgur.com/HtDcrc4l.jpg

[cclaxton]

I certainly wouldn't get it on the trigger that early except for a double action press out, but to me he looks like he is setting up on a target and thus it is allowed within the rule as I understand them.

And if I were the shooter and you called me on it, I would appeal it.
Perhaps this is making Todd's point: That gaming rules allow unsafe practices to develop. With IDPA you get one warning. I would like to see that in USPSA. The typical reaction is to talk to the shooter afterwards and informally tell him to watch it. That just doesn't seem like the right approach when it comes to safety.
Cody

[joshs]

It's easy to sit back and arm chair quarterback a moment that lasted a tenth of a second in real time. I would bet just about everyone here has gotten heir finger in the trigger guard during a press out or when transitioning quickly. A 30 second Google search found multiple examples of other top shooters in compromising positions.

http://i.imgur.com/IOewdwWl.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/3mtrGEG.jpg

First 20 seconds of this video
http://youtu.be/6_W2w0oBwb8

The first video of Todd I pulled up had questionable fingers as well. It's a nature of the beast when shooting fast and somethig we should all be more aware of.


http://i.imgur.com/HtDcrc4l.jpg

I don't see any issues with what Bob or Todd are doing in those images. Bob's finger looks to be outside the trigger guard, but it is still low because he is mid "flip" to hit the mag release. Todd is just hitting the mag release with his index finger.

I can't tell if Rob has his finger in the trigger guard or not.

[waktasz]

Perhaps this is making Todd's point: That gaming rules allow unsafe practices to develop. With IDPA you get one warning. I would like to see that in USPSA. The typical reaction is to talk to the shooter afterwards and informally tell him to watch it. That just doesn't seem like the right approach when it comes to safety.
Cody

Actually IDPA rules allow bad habits to develop, because you get a warning before getting the DQ. In USPSA there is no leeway. If you see that as an RO, and you are sure, it's a trip home.

Remember when IDPA gave 3 warnings before issuing the DQ? I'd like to think my "IDPA doesn't care about safety" thread on IDPA forum had a lot to do with that rule being immediately retracted.

[BaiHu]

We can circle jerk all of this to death, but in the first 3 chapters of USPSA Rule Book I see mention of safety in:

1.1.1: Safety – USPSA matches must be designed, constructed and conducted with due consideration to safety.

And 2.1.1: Physical Construction – Safety considerations in the design, physical construction and stated requirements for any course of fire are the responsibility of the host organization subject to the approval of the Range Master. Reasonable effort must be made to prevent injury to competitors, officials and spectators during the match. Course design should prevent inadvertent unsafe actions wherever possible. Consideration must be given to the operation of any course of fire to provide suitable access for officials supervising the competitors.

And 3.1: The competitor is always responsible to safely fulfill the requirements of a course of fire but can only reasonably be expected to do so after verbally or physically receiving the written stage briefing, which must adequately explain the requirements to the competitors. Course information can be broadly divided into the following types:

So the question remains: is the sport adequately pushing safety in a sport that makes safety a primary, secondary and tertiary concern?

[PPGMD]

Perhaps this is making Todd's point: That gaming rules allow unsafe practices to develop. With IDPA you get one warning. I would like to see that in USPSA. The typical reaction is to talk to the shooter afterwards and informally tell him to watch it. That just doesn't seem like the right approach when it comes to safety.

I disagree, I hate it when I am RO'd by IDPA SOs in USPSA, and they yell that stupid shit at me.

If I am getting close to the 180 to engage a target, it is probably because there was no better plan that didn't involve me doing that. Believe me, I hate shooting close to the 180 degree line, as there it is too fraught with chance to hit DQ for a Blizzard. But if I am doing it the last thing I need is someone yelling muzzle at me.

[GJM]

Proponents of the press out seem to think that having sights on the target while working the trigger somehow inoculates them against shooting the wrong thing. Of course sights on target does nothing to prevent problems with trigger control. Consider what percentage of handgun shots are missed because of sight alignment and what percentage because of trigger control issues.

If I am the hostage down range, I could care less about whether the "good guy" saving me does an index draw, press out or some combination. I just don't want the shooter saving me to work the trigger until the gun has stopped, and he has aimed. Period.

[cclaxton]

Actually IDPA rules allow bad habits to develop, because you get a warning before getting the DQ. In USPSA there is no leeway. If you see that as an RO, and you are sure, it's a trip home.

Remember when IDPA gave 3 warnings before issuing the DQ? I'd like to think my "IDPA doesn't care about safety" thread on IDPA forum had a lot to do with that rule being immediately retracted.
The problem with the USPSA rule is that no RO wants to send a shooter home for the 1st, or sometimes even 2nd infraction, so they "counsel" them after they shoot a stage. IDPA has more new shooters than USPSA, and I like the rule that you get one warning. It makes it official and you don't go home automatically after one.
Cody

[joshs]

Do admins censor things often here?

Only when members fail to abide by the Code of Conduct (https://pistol-forum.com/misc.php?do=showrules). Please read it.

[Ben B]

The problem with the USPSA rule is that no RO wants to send a shooter home for the 1st, or sometimes even 2nd infraction, so they "counsel" them after they shoot a stage. IDPA has more new shooters than USPSA, and I like the rule that you get one warning. It makes it official and you don't go home automatically after one.
Cody

In practice, IDPA SOs don't want to DQ someone for a warnable offense. Since this rule became effective, SOs warn people less because they know a second warning will mandate a DQ (or they just ignore the rule).

[Alpha Sierra]

So the question remains: is the sport adequately pushing safety in a sport that makes safety a primary, secondary and tertiary concern?
The sport's safety record speaks for itself, and it does so favorably.

[BaiHu]

The sport's safety record speaks for itself, and it does so favorably.
I agree, but complacency and falling back on past performances is never a way to look/go forward or improve.

[cclaxton]

In practice, IDPA SOs don't want to DQ someone for a warnable offense. Since this rule became effective, SOs warn people less because they know a second warning will mandate a DQ (or they just ignore the rule).
Ben, This probably varies by region and by club. I am Match Director at three clubs (Peacemaker, Thurmont, and NRA IDPA), and I manage about 20 Safety Officers across all these clubs. I also attend at least six sanctioned matches a year and a number of other USPSA matches in-between. I can tell you that my Safety Officers will call FINGER and will DQ, per the rule. Each SO may be more or less lenient/diligent, but they know the expectation I set for the matches where I am MD. There are a few sanctioned matches that I would like to see more finger calls on, but I don't run them, so I won't out them. I don't want to start any kind of USPSA verus IDPA debate, as I shoot them both, and this is not to disparage USPSA, but in my experience I have seen more RO's be lenient with the finger rule at USPSA matches. That may be anecdotal since I only shoot three USPSA clubs in the area.
Cody

[Alpha Sierra]

I agree, but complacency and falling back on past performances is never a way to look/go forward or improve.

What is there to improve? At some point things are good enough.

I'm a dues paying USPSA member and do not want any more verbiage added to the rule book. It is large enough and it is doing its job.

[BaiHu]

What is there to improve? At some point things are good enough.

I'm a dues paying USPSA member and do not want any more verbiage added to the rule book. It is large enough and it is doing its job.
Like most laws/rules, we rarely need more, we just need to enforce the ones we have consistently, justly and vigilantly.

[YVK]

I just don't want the shooter saving me to work the trigger until the gun has stopped, and he has aimed. Period.


Tell me again how you get a sub-second draw with your Shadows and Billretta? And what's the thinking about Bill Rogers' teaching finger on the trigger of TDA guns before you even decided to shoot?

[GJM]

Tell me again how you get a sub-second draw with your Shadows and Billretta? And what's the thinking about Bill Rogers' teaching finger on the trigger of TDA guns before you even decided to shoot?

If I am the hostage, YVK please don't try to save me with a sub-second draw!!

Bill Rogers wants you to lightly touch the trigger with a DA/SA (like Beretta 92 particularly) for two reasons -- making sure the trigger is not "dead" (safety on) and to also make sure the condition of the trigger (so as not to get SA when you expect DA).

[Alpha Sierra]

What are the odds he was called?

What are the odds his safety is on?

What are the odds his trigger weighs more than 2.5#?

What rule is he breaking?

Didn't know the rules required the safety to be on while moving around the stage

Didn't know open division rules had a minimum trigger weight

Why are you trying to apply your own rules to it?

[breakingtime91]

What rule is he breaking?

Didn't know the rules required the safety to be on while moving around the stage

Didn't know open division rules had a minimum trigger weight

Why are you trying to apply your own rules to it?

He's trying to apply saftey to it?

[Alpha Sierra]

He's trying to apply saftey to it?

The sport does not need the help. But thanks anyway.

[cclaxton]

The sport does not need the help. But thanks anyway.
I don't think it's the sport he is concerned about....it is what might happen in self-defense or LE work.
Cody

[Alpha Sierra]

I don't think it's the sport he is concerned about....it is what might happen in self-defense or LE work.
Cody
Then don't use the sport as an example. Simple.

[HopetonBrown]

I don't see anything wrong with the photo.

[Scott69]

I am pretty sure I am the only one in this thread that actually shot this stage at Nationals. The target he is coming into is a popper at maybe 12 yds max. He is very much so eyes on target and prepping the trigger. You must remember that you don't ever "look at" the sight on an Open gun. You look at the target. If you don't shoot Open, you don't know. It is feasible that that shot was actually broken .001 after this pic was taken.

[LittleLebowski]

I am pretty sure I am the only one in this thread that actually shot this stage at Nationals. The target he is coming into is a popper at maybe 12 yds max. He is very much so eyes on target and prepping the trigger. You must remember that you don't ever "look at" the sight on an Open gun. You look at the target. If you don't shoot Open, you don't know. It is feasible that that shot was actually broken .001 after this pic was taken.

Excellent, thanks for clarifying.

[chuck s]

I am pretty sure I am the only one in this thread that actually shot this stage at Nationals. The target he is coming into is a popper at maybe 12 yds max. He is very much so eyes on target and prepping the trigger. You must remember that you don't ever "look at" the sight on an Open gun. You look at the target. If you don't shoot Open, you don't know. It is feasible that that shot was actually broken .001 after this pic was taken.

Damn, just when thing were getting interesting you have to come in and ruin it with the facts

[breakingtime91]

Then don't use the sport as an example. Simple.

You understand your "tone" does little to help prove your point? actually the opposite. Hes not trampling on your sport, he is talking about safety in general. Todd is a smart guy and I am sure he understood what he was doing when he selected the sport as an example.

[JV_]

You understand your "tone" does little to help prove your point? actually the opposite.Agreed.

[breakingtime91]

Damn, just when thing were getting interesting you have to come in and ruin it with the facts

I actually laughed..

[wtturn]

Nice hit-and-run post devoid of context. Surely designed to generate honest "debate" on safety. lol

[Mike R]

Is there a video of this person shooting this stage, or a still photo of him firing the gun subsequent to the one posted?

Yes, there is a picture of him on his Facebook page mid recoil in that same shooting position. Didn't see video of our dear (identity withheld) for that stage on live shots.

I was actually there watching the super squad on that stage, stage 11 of the 2014 USPSA Nationals. I didn't see anything unsafe when he shot. The popper is big, and close. The berm is tall, and close. Definitely pointed in a safe direction, definitely engaging a target.

This is a direct contrast to the screen cap of the accusing party with finger on the trigger while the muzzle is clearly pointed over the berm. Why is this getting a pass? Because it isn't a "space gun"? Does a heavier trigger pull exempt a shooter from exercising an appropriate combination of trigger and muzzle control? Honest question.

To answer the original questions:
He wasn't "called"
Safety was off
Trigger on the SV is most definitely under 2.5 lbs
Popper falls within a fraction of a second of this image... oh wait, nobody asked that.

[mikeg]

You can't "move" with your finger in the trigger in USPSA.

USPSA rulebook defines movement as more than ONE step in any direction. If this guy planted his feet into a shooting position and is putting his gun up on target it is perfectly fine within the USPSA rulebook to put your finger in the trigger. This is not a DQ'able offense.

Next topic... Is it safe per the code of the range Nazis... lets thing about it for a second.

Who here has EVER started a draw and once your hands come together start putting their finger in the trigger guard?
Who here has EVER drawn a gun out of holster and began prepping the trigger on the way out to the target?
Who here has EVER rode the reset of a trigger while transitioning targets?
Who here has EVER started shifting body weight, lifting a foot while AT THE EXACT SAME TIME starting moving their finger out of the trigger guard?
Who here has EVER took their finger out of the trigger guard and not placed it on the frame but rather out in open air next to the trigger guard?

If you have, then you are all unsafe based on your pointless bantering about a guy caught in the middle of engaging a target.

So... based on your guys' idea of "proper" safety rules... the only way to properly except a shot and a draw is to wait until your sights are on the target and then put your finger in the trigger. Also, when you're done shooting, before you even move a single muscle, you need to remove your finger completely, plant it on the frame, and then start doing whatever you want.

In competition doing this would waste time, in the real world, you'd probably get killed.

Any other questions?

[Mr_White]

I appreciate that additional perspective on the original pic Mike R, thank you.

[breakingtime91]

You can't "move" with your finger in the trigger in USPSA.

USPSA rulebook defines movement as more than ONE step in any direction. If this guy planted his feet into a shooting position and is putting his gun up on target it is perfectly fine within the USPSA rulebook to put your finger in the trigger. This is not a DQ'able offense.

Next topic... Is it safe per the code of the range Nazis... lets thing about it for a second.

Who here has EVER started a draw and once your hands come together start putting their finger in the trigger guard?
Who here has EVER drawn a gun out of holster and began prepping the trigger on the way out to the target?
Who here has EVER rode the reset of a trigger while transitioning targets?
Who here has EVER started shifting body weight, lifting a foot while AT THE EXACT SAME TIME starting moving their finger out of the trigger guard?
Who here has EVER took their finger out of the trigger guard and not placed it on the frame but rather out in open air next to the trigger guard?

If you have, then you are all unsafe based on your pointless bantering about a guy caught in the middle of engaging a target.

So... based on your guys' idea of "proper" safety rules... the only way to properly except a shot and a draw is to wait until your sights are on the target and then put your finger in the trigger. Also, when you're done shooting, before you even move a single muscle, you need to remove your finger completely, plant it on the frame, and then start doing whatever you want.

In competition doing this would waste time, in the real world, you'd probably get killed.

Any other questions?

so getting your finger out of a trigger guard would get you killed?

[mikeg]

If you can't do anything else but stand still until you've confirmed your finger is out, you're wasting time. Yes, no?

[breakingtime91]

If you can't do anything else but stand still until you've confirmed your finger is out, you're wasting time. Yes, no?

that wasn't my question? But I will humor you and state that I take my finger out of the trigger guard when I can not identify where my front sight is pointed. So do I take it out during target transitions? no because I am consciously on my front sight. Do I take it out before I start movement? Yes unless I am shooting on the move, once again I am on my front sight. What does this mitigate? Well since you asked about movement, if I am moving and fall I will possibly ND. While this is a concern while shooting on the move it should not be any kind of issue when moving through a stage, no front sight=trigger finger out of the trigger guard. If that gets me killed on the streets, I guess I'll have to live with being safe. This is talking about in general, not what the guy did in the photo.


Can you answer my question also. thanks

[GJM]

But I will humor you and state that I take my finger out of the trigger guard when I can not identify where my front sight is pointed.

Just to clarify, do you mean "front sight" or do you mean "muzzle?" And do you mean you take your finger out of the trigger guard when you can not identify whete your front sight is pointed, or something else?

[mikeg]

Never been in a gunfight, but I would imagine wasted time would increase the chances of getting shot at. Waiting until you're aiming to get your finger in the trigger guard/start prepping the trigger is a waste of time. Also... waiting until you're full out of the trigger guard to START moving is a waste of time.

That is what this debate is about... when you can start putting your finger on the trigger and when you have to start taking it off.

[breakingtime91]

Just to clarify, do you mean "front sight" or do you mean "muzzle?" And do you mean you take your finger out of the trigger guard when you can not identify your front sight is pointed, or something else?

Thanks GJM, I meant where my muzzle is pointed by front sight. And I mean if I am not actively shooting something or prepping to break a shot, my finger is out of the trigger guard. Hopefully that gets my point across? Full disclaimer: I have never participated in gun games, I come from a background where I had to point my gun at quite a few people while we searched them/detained them and honestly the only safe way to do that is to be strict about where your finger is. Only takes one stupid mistake to ruin your life. So if that doesn't fully cross over into this discussion I will bow out.

[mikeg]

Thanks GJM, I meant where my muzzle is pointed by front sight. And I mean if I am not actively shooting something or prepping to break a shot, my finger is out of the trigger guard. Hopefully that gets my point across? Full disclaimer: I have never participated in gun games, I come from a background where I had to point my gun at quite a few people while we searched them/detained them and honestly the only safe way to do that is to be strict about where your finger is. Only takes one stupid mistake to ruin your life. So if that doesn't fully cross over into this discussion I will bow out.

That guy is prepping the trigger because he is literally shooting the target probably hundredths of a second later. Also... its an open gun... you hold the gun probably 2 inches lower than you would an iron sight gun and you look at the target, not the dot when you aim (the reason why it appear he isn't looking at the gun).

Also, the guy IS going to shoot the target, not deciding whether to or not... starts prepping the trigger while bringing the gun up so when the gun is in position he can pull the trigger go on... big difference than having a gun out and not having to shoot because you're analyzing what is going on prior to shooting anything.

[breakingtime91]

That guy is prepping the trigger because he is literally shooting the target probably hundredths of a second later. Also... its an open gun... you hold the gun probably 2 inches lower than you would an iron sight gun and you look at the target, not the dot when you aim (the reason why it appear he isn't looking at the gun).

Ya, I admit context is everything. And also sorry Tom, I'll try better to keep it on topic.

[Alpha Sierra]

Todd is a smart guy and I am sure he understood what he was doing when he selected the sport as an example.
Yes, it was quite the troll

[GJM]

FWIW, this thread is in the Competition Skills & Discussion section, so any talk about "getting killed on the streets" is probably off topic and better suited for a different thread.

Tom, you make the rules here, but I think when and how to put the finger on the trigger is a very interesting discussion that dovetails with competition and the streets.

My personal view is as long as you are not waiting for your finger, the later you put your finger on the trigger in the presentation, the safer you are in terms of not letting shots off early, and the less likely you are to experience anticipation, which can lead to missed shots. So, later = more safe, more accurate.

[breakingtime91]

Tom, you make the rules here, but I think when and how to put the finger on the trigger is a very interesting discussion that dovetails with competition and the streets.

My personal view is as long as you are not waiting for your finger, the later you put your finger on the trigger in the presentation, the safer you are in terms of not letting shots off early, and the less likely you are to experience anticipation, which can lead to missed shots. So, later = more safe, more accurate.

GJM, I just had a light bulb moment from that simple statement. I have a shooting buddy that I think this will help with his pistol shooting problems....

[mikeg]

Ya, I admit context is everything. And also sorry Tom, I'll try better to keep it on topic.

That is why this thread is beyond stupid (sorry mods, it really is) someone took an "in the moment" picture of a guy who is about to blaze a very close (12 yard full size popper). Guy is shooting a sport that relies on being fast, you're not going to be get in position, get on target, start aiming, start prepping the trigger, separately... its all going to happen at the same time because the whole action is going to take a fraction of a second. That stage was 14 shot where the top guy completed it (with draw, movement, etc.) in under 7 seconds.

[breakingtime91]

That is why this thread is beyond stupid (sorry mods, it really is) someone took an "in the moment" picture of a guy who is about to blaze a very close (12 yard full size popper). Guy is shooting a sport that relies on being fast, you're not going to be get in position, get on target, start aiming, start prepping the trigger, separately... its all going to happen at the same time because the whole action is going to take a fraction of a second. That stage was 14 shot where the top guy completed it (with draw, movement, etc.) in under 7 seconds.

would it be alright if we continued the discussion from a general stand point? Not just from that pic? I think this thread could be interesting .

[mikeg]

would it be alright if we continued the discussion from a general stand point? Not just from that pic? I think this thread could be interesting .

What discussion is that?

[breakingtime91]

so in general when do you think it is okay to get on/off the trigger?

[SLG]

Tom, you make the rules here, but I think when and how to put the finger on the trigger is a very interesting discussion that dovetails with competition and the streets.

...and the less likely you are to experience anticipation, which can lead to missed shots. So, later = more safe, more accurate.

GJM,

Though I quote Rob for all sorts of stuff, I cannot agree with the above. That is really only true when you shoot sub 2 pound triggers and are a high level shooter. None of the guys who actually do hostage rescue do it that way, because real guns (as opposed to guns designed for games) have much heavier, longer triggers. Actually, what I should say is that none of the guys who actually do it, and who shoot well, do it that way. IME, later leads to more anticipation, and more missed shots. The best USPSA shooters are some of the best shooters on the planet. The ones who can also shoot Bianchi at a high level are even better. However, I have found that if you want to stereotype them in anyway, they tend to stray outside their lane more than most. High level competition shooting only somewhat touches high level tactical shooting, and mistaking ability in one for ability in another usually leads to problems.

Of course, some of them have migrated to gamer type triggers, so I suppose I shouldn't group everyone in the community together.

[GJM]

GJM,

Though I quote Rob for all sorts of stuff, I cannot agree with the above. That is really only true when you shoot sub 2 pound triggers and are a high level shooter. Non of the guys who actually do hostage rescue do it that way, because real guns (as opposed to guns designed for games) have much heavier, longer triggers. Actually, what I should say is that non of the guys who actually do it, and who shoot well, do it that way. IME, later leads to more anticipation, and more missed shots. The best USPSA shooters are some of the best shooters on the planet. The ones who can also shoot Bianchi at a high level are even better. However, I have found that if you want to stereotype them in anyway, they tend to stray outside their lane more than most. High level competition shooting only somewhat touches high level tactical shooting, and mistaking ability in one for ability in another usually leads to problems.

I think this would be a very interesting discussion, and would like to participate in it. Mr_White and I were discussing it just a few hours ago. However, I think Tom wants it in another thread. Will you start it?

[breakingtime91]

I think this would be a very interesting discussion, and would like to participate in it. Mr_White and I were discussing it just a few hours ago. However, I think Tom wants it in another thread. Will you start it?

^ what he said.

[ToddG]

Yes, it was quite the troll

No. Believe it or not, some of us express opinions with the desire to have discussion and not just behave like numbskulls trolls. But you go ahead and play it your way.

[GJM]

GJM,

Though I quote Rob for all sorts of stuff, I cannot agree with the above.

Just to clarify, this wasn't from TGO. I figured this out months before I trained with Robbie. Surf will remember all to well my numerous posts on getting in the trigger later, and working it in one continuous motion. I believe in it so much, when I am shooting harder one hand shots like an 8 inch steel at 20 or further, I don't prep between shots at all, but rather work the whole amount of travel in one continuous motion, as I do on the draw freestyle.

[cclaxton]

Todd's post is asking a question...NOT about the safety of shooting sports, but he is asking to what extent these habits degrade our safe gun handling habits beyond the competitive COF?

"For everyone who is justifying this because: game, all that does is reinforce the idea that these games are giving up cardinal safety procedures for the sake of speed & fun."

Let's accept that this shooter didn't violate any safety rule under USPSA rules. But the question still remains whether these habits are compromising core safety practices?

To those who have posted that "we are all guilty of doing this..." therefore we shouldn't beat up this guy....that still doesn't make it right. We are not here to excoriate this shooter in the picture. We are here to ask whether we are compromising our core safety procedures.

I will put my opinion out there: Competition shooting is one of the most public things done by firearms owners. When we see someone with their finger indexed on the frame, such as the IDPA shooter in the African Mall incident, we crow about how good we are at safety. That is the way the public should see us. When we don't "appear" to be safe, it is a bad image and bad PR for the sport. It makes us look unprofessional. And, then when we defend it...we have the appearance of "trigger happy" gun owners. And, it serves as a poor example for new shooters. How do I get new shooters to keep their fingers off the trigger if they see people like this guy potentially violating the rule?

I am very proud that we keep shooting sports safe, and except for very rare cases, we operate safely. But that doesn't excuse us from being good role models. Maybe this particular shooter was just caught on film at the wrong time and watching a video would convince us of that. But let's not forget how critical safety is and the "appearance" of being safe is just as crucial.
Cody

[SLG]

Just to clarify, this wasn't from TGO. I figured this out months before I trained with Robbie.

Fair enough. I've heard it from him before, and assumed. My fault.

[PPGMD]

I will put my opinion out there: Competition shooting is one of the most public things done by firearms owners. When we see someone with their finger indexed on the frame, such as the IDPA shooter in the African Mall incident, we crow about how good we are at safety. That is the way the public should see us. When we don't "appear" to be safe, it is a bad image and bad PR for the sport. It makes us look unprofessional. And, then when we defend it...we have the appearance of "trigger happy" gun owners. And, it serves as a poor example for new shooters. How do I get new shooters to keep their fingers off the trigger if they see people like this guy potentially violating the rule?

So we should bend to accommodate what the LCD would get out of a random out of context picture? That means no muzzle up reloads because that is dangerous, no shooting on the move because that is dangerous, no shooting steel at less than 100 yards because that is dangerous, no shooting steel unless you have a 1 mile impact zone because that is dangerous etc etc...

There is a large majority here that believe in the press out, and I am sure that they would agree that you even need to know how to press out what shooting on the move.

That is basically what this open shooter is doing, he is moving the last bit into the shooting position, and pressing his gun out onto the target. When the red dot appears on the popper, he will break the shot.

[cclaxton]

So we should bend to accommodate what the LCD would get out of a random out of context picture? That means no muzzle up reloads because that is dangerous, no shooting on the move because that is dangerous, no shooting steel at less than 100 yards because that is dangerous, no shooting steel unless you have a 1 mile impact zone because that is dangerous etc etc...

There is a large majority here that believe in the press out, and I am sure that they would agree that you even need to know how to press out what shooting on the move.

That is basically what this open shooter is doing, he is moving the last bit into the shooting position, and pressing his gun out onto the target. When the red dot appears on the popper, he will break the shot.
If we can train ourselves to be just as fast without taking shortcuts, and exhibit an image of better safety, what would be wrong with that? If we just wanted to be able to go as fast as we could, then why have any safety rules?...They just take up brain cells.
Cody

[PPGMD]

If we can train ourselves to be just as fast without taking shortcuts, and exhibit an image of better safety, what would be wrong with that? If we just wanted to be able to go as fast as we could, then why have any safety rules?...They just take up brain cells.

It isn't a short cut it is an accepted technique, one that the OP built his training program on. The photo just doesn't show how he is setting up on the target, not just randomly walking around with his finger on the target.

I am sure that no one here would argue that I should be DQ'd when I, a sandbagging production shooters, take up the slack on my M&Ps when I am setting up on a target. But when the open GM does it, it seems to be a big deal. He still likely has some slack on the trigger, even though it may not be much, but like a production shooter he wants to break the shot the moment his sights are on target.

[breakingtime91]

If im not mistaken, before your finger touches the trigger on the press out, you see the sites

[SLG]

If im not mistaken, before your finger touches the trigger on the press out, you see the sites

Not true for me or anyone else I know who does it "right".

[PPGMD]

If im not mistaken, before your finger touches the trigger on the press out, you see the sites

Depends on the school of thought. I came from the Gray Guns (now Opspec) school of thought. I start pressing the trigger the moment my hands come together.

Todd has a slightly different way.

[breakingtime91]

Not true for me or anyone else I know who does it "right".

Gotcha.

[Lomshek]

Originally Posted by PPGMD
That is basically what this open shooter is doing, he is moving the last bit into the shooting position, and pressing his gun out onto the target. When the red dot appears on the popper, he will break the shot.
If we can train ourselves to be just as fast without taking shortcuts, and exhibit an image of better safety, what would be wrong with that?
If we just wanted to be able to go as fast as we could, then why have any safety rules?...They just take up brain cells.
Cody
One can not train to be "just as fast" without doing what he's doing. One does not compete at a national championship event by erring on the side of going slower. As others have said if he's indexed on target as he's moving into position and literally a few hundredths of a second from breaking the shot then he's not doing anything unsafe nor is he violating the rules.

Claiming a photo of a finger on the trigger .05 seconds before the shot breaks portrays a poor image of safety is a little overboard. Who are we worried about offending with said poor image of safety, the anti-gunners?

A person can justifiably argue that trying to shave a tenth off "on the street" at the expense of safety is a fools errand and they'd be correct. That has nothing to do with what the pictured shooter is doing on a closed course that he's walked through and knows where each footfall is, where each target is and how to best address it.

[Slavex]

Curious, does anyone have any high speed frames of people shooting a variety of guns and showing the recoil of each and where the muzzle points during the cycle?

[Scott69]

If im not mistaken, before your finger touches the trigger on the press out, you see the sites

You do realize the press out is VERY slow and not remotely applicable to the speed required on the USPSA Super Squad?

[joshs]

You do realize the press out is VERY slow and not remotely applicable to the speed required on the USPSA Super Squad?

Are you just referring to the draw or a presentation after movement, as the shooter appears to be doing in the image? Keeping the gun high as you enter a setup and "pressing out" along a relatively straight line is what most high level competitors do, especially when shooting iron sights.

[cclaxton]

It isn't a short cut it is an accepted technique, one that the OP built his training program on. The photo just doesn't show how he is setting up on the target, not just randomly walking around with his finger on the target.

I am sure that no one here would argue that I should be DQ'd when I, a sandbagging production shooters, take up the slack on my M&Ps when I am setting up on a target. But when the open GM does it, it seems to be a big deal. He still likely has some slack on the trigger, even though it may not be much, but like a production shooter he wants to break the shot the moment his sights are on target.
So let me see if I have this right: Is it your position that the ONLY times a shooter should get a finger call is while loading, reloading, unloading, malfunction resolution, on the draw before the muzzle is downrange, reholstering, when stopped at the end of the COF, and while moving when there is no target available? Where I particularly interested in your answer is when a shooter is moving towards a shooting position and targets are available to shoot. At any point you could choose to shoot the available targets on the move or while stopping or while standing/kneeling/prone. So, as long as your gun is pointed downrange, you could choose to take a shot at any moment when targets are available, therefore no finger calls should be made, right? Please clarify your position on the matter.
Cody

[Dagga Boy]

This is simple. Practice makes permanent and it instills habits. What do you want permanent? When I shoot competitively now (which is about pure fun and I could care less about winning anything), I make a very conscious decision to get in the trigger guard late, and I am shooting a revolver. I know it is "match slower" and is not as relevant in a match because the only problem you are solving is what target gets how many rounds and when....not exactly difficult on the stress scale or complex, and there are no variables. I simply do not want to ruin a habit as my primary concern is threat management and problem solving "on the street". I actually know first hand how things get in a real world shooting and plan my training and habit forming accordingly. Others are concerned with winning matches and get to certain rankings or levels and they are habit forming accordingly. There are not a lot of problems until you mix the two.
We had a class last weekend with a solid high level shooter. Guy was early on the trigger on every single draw. No matter how many times he was corrected, he was on just as the muzzle cleared his holster. Never had an ND, was a safe gun handler in regards to muzzle discipline, and fast. The problem was he was also on the trigger every time we gave one of several commands that should have been a draw to a challenge or draw to a ready. Couldn't fix it. I asked if he was a competitive shooter, and in fact that is his primary shooting venue, and really his passion and what he trains for. So, he has built a sub-conscious response. Will it get HIM killed on the street....not likely. Could it lead to some major issues in the remote chance that he does get into a self defense situation, likely....but it is a remote chance. Is it going to get changed....nope. He didn't get the correct reps to fix it, it will be reinforced towards the timer this weekend when he goes back to shooting competitively on the weekends, and it is simply an "is what it is". Until the shooting sports want to DQ their top level shooters, it is never going to change. It will be reinforced all the way down the shooting ranks, and nothing is going to change it, and the folks like me in the defensive training arena should actually just STFU about it as nobody cares and it doesn't really affect us....it's their sport, let them work it out. With that said....the same folks who use their sport abilities as a pedigree in my world could have the same courtesy and STFU about what is correct in my world....because these kind of draws have some very bad implications in that world, and we have plenty of cases of very negative results with very real harm being done. I can think of one family with a very dead 18 year old due to this kind of cross pollination. Yea, it didn't get the shooter killed on the street, but someone did...which doesn't get addressed by all the little snarky sayings.

Fact, it is "slightly" faster to get on a trigger early. That is important at some level of shooting sports. It is not important in managing lethal force applications on humans in complex problems that have zero to do with shooting sports. At this point it is a match gun handling versus tactical gun handling. In this part of the forum...I would say the match gun handling wins. If this was the issue elsewhere, like the LE forum, it would not be the way to do things and down right wrong.

[PPGMD]

So let me see if I have this right: Is it your position that the ONLY times a shooter should get a finger call is while loading, reloading, unloading, malfunction resolution, on the draw before the muzzle is downrange, reholstering, when stopped at the end of the COF, and while moving when there is no target available? Where I particularly interested in your answer is when a shooter is moving towards a shooting position and targets are available to shoot. At any point you could choose to shoot the available targets on the move or while stopping or while standing/kneeling/prone. So, as long as your gun is pointed downrange, you could choose to take a shot at any moment when targets are available, therefore no finger calls should be made, right? Please clarify your position on the matter.

No, you are completely misconstruing my words, for a longish movement you bring the gun back to chest level. When you start to get into position you bring the gun back up to eye level, while doing so you take the slack out of the trigger just like a draw.

To reiterate YOU AREN'T WALKING AROUND WITH YOUR FINGER ON THE TRIGGER. As you approach the last step to a shooting position you bring your weak hand back onto the gun and you start taking out the slack on the trigger as you bring it up to eye level on target. At that point you are considered actively engaging targets. The only difference between other divisions and open is the transition target to sights, and how much slack that needs to be taken out of the trigger.

Now as far as your scenario, I've seen low level shooters actually move toward visible open targets with their sights aligned and fingers on trigger. I've never RO'd an example of this, but I would be hard pressed to DQ them as they are actively aimed in on the targets.

[Chuck Haggard]

Well said Darryl

[Mike R]

So let me see if I have this right: Is it your position that the ONLY times a shooter should get a finger call is while loading, reloading, unloading, malfunction resolution, on the draw before the muzzle is downrange, reholstering, when stopped at the end of the COF, and while moving when there is no target available? Where I particularly interested in your answer is when a shooter is moving towards a shooting position and targets are available to shoot. At any point you could choose to shoot the available targets on the move or while stopping or while standing/kneeling/prone. So, as long as your gun is pointed downrange, you could choose to take a shot at any moment when targets are available, therefore no finger calls should be made, right? Please clarify your position on the matter.
Cody

I don't think anyone is saying that- you are trying to take a reasonable position and make it unreasonable.

People should not get a finger call while they are engaging targets, assuming none of the other special cases you pointed out apply. What does it mean to engage targets? Are you of the position that if someone has a miss, that means their finger was on the trigger while their sights were aligned on the target, and therefore they should be DQed?

If someone has their finger on the trigger and gun pointed over the berm, assuming there are no targets available on the top of the berm, that should be a DQ, i.e. the screencaps of Todd posted here would all be grounds for a DQ. I asked a question about that, and nobody will answer it, because operate. But who are you to say that the shooter in the original post is not engaging a target? Especially since you and others jumped in without looking for more pics, or seeing the stage layout, or watching it first hand.

Here is a picture I took at Nats of another Open super squadder on stage 10, the stage before the original pic posted.

http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r70/rushta/ct.jpg (http://s141.photobucket.com/user/rushta/media/ct.jpg.html)

You can see the dust from where he kicked off from the start position at the buzzer as he is decelerating into position. His finger is clearly on the trigger (and clearly within sight of the RO in the left of the picture). It is for several steps of deceleration but he is engaging an array of targets, so no DQ. And no DQ necessary.

Despite both of these competitors running sub 2 lb triggers, with minimal pull lengths, neither of them let one go unintentionally. If they did, it would be grounds for a DQ.

I've watched the shooter in the original picture take 2 alphas on a full sprint at 12 yards. You can watch his videos and you will see that he does get his finger on the trigger to engage targets, if he is breaking away hard from a position, or retreating, or otherwise not engaging targets his finger is clearly out of the trigger guard and straight.

The fact that so many people in this thread have brought up "race guns" and how unsafe the picture is, asserting clearly their ability to armchair DQ the guy over a single frame without questioning where the muzzle actually is in relation to the target, gives me little hope that we can have an actual discussion on this topic. The groupthink seems too strong. Yes, people can shoot on the move. You can see Todd's PT post on All or Nothing: Unsighted Fire. These guys practice to the level that they can use their sights on the move.

I'd post my own video of the match, so you can see the stage layouts and relative positioning, but I don't think anyone still arguing for "safety" is interest in that. Besides, I am pretty sure I would be DQed from pistol-forum.com for shooting on the move and a billion "finger" calls.

[breakingtime91]

You do realize the press out is VERY slow and not remotely applicable to the speed required on the USPSA Super Squad?

Sure. Low probability hits at decent speed are pretty easy/simple with the press out. I think competition gives us all alot of good stuff, I just don't think this is one of them. nyeti said what I think and since more will notice his words, i will bow out.

[PPGMD]

Nyeti,

That is a training scar pure and simple. There is no reason in USPSA to get on the trigger that early, in fact he might send himself to DQ for a Blizzard as there is a chance he will crank off a round within 3 yards of his body.

I was always taught, and maintain that there is no speed advantage to getting on the trigger before both hands come together on the gun at chest level. And then only if you made the conscious decision to fire. In fact to prevent such a training scar Bruce made us practice the press out not from the holster but from the position that the hands come together. And had us do number of draws where you never got into the trigger because you've not yet made a decision to fire, and suggested we incorporate it into our dry fire and range practice to prevent such a training scar.

[JV_]

i.e. the screencaps of Todd posted here would all be grounds for a DQ.Not all of them have his finger in the trigger guard. One of them shows him dropping a mag with his trigger finger, he's running a reversed Glock magazine catch.


Yes, people can shoot on the move. You can see Todd's PT post on All or Nothing: Unsighted Fire. These guys practice to the level that they can use their sights on the move.Plenty of people here shoot on the move, and use their sights while doing it.

[breakingtime91]

Not all of them have his finger in the trigger guard. One of them shows him dropping a mag with his trigger finger, he's running a reversed Glock magazine catch.

Jv what screen shots if he referring to?

[JV_]

I'm referring to this one:
http://i.imgur.com/HtDcrc4l.jpg

[Mike R]

Jv what screen shots if he referring to?

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff242/Rob377/TPOG_zpsijrezngk.jpg

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff242/Rob377/TPOG2_zpsjdjjnuil.jpg

I could find a dozen more if it would change your mind, but it wouldn't. Both of these would be clear DQs in USPSA. Over the berm is not a safe direction.

[breakingtime91]

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff242/Rob377/TPOG_zpsijrezngk.jpg

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff242/Rob377/TPOG2_zpsjdjjnuil.jpg

I could find a dozen more if it would change your mind, but it wouldn't. Both of these would be clear DQs in USPSA. Over the berm is not a safe direction.

Alright I understand that we "insulted" your sport but please don't tell me what will change my mind. This isn't pistol-forum vs competition shooters. With that said the context of the picture is everything (like I said about the original).

[JV_]

I could find a dozen more if it would change your mind, but it wouldn't. Both of these would be clear DQs in USPSA. Over the berm is not a safe direction.
Change my mind about what?

I know what it looks like, and it looks no different than the picture in the original post.

I've been burned too many times trying to over-analyze a picture and draw conclusions. It's better to use the picture to discuss the overarching issues that the picture could convey than to worry about one instance where all you have is a single picture, and many parts of the scene are missing - like the targets.

[Carnifex]

Not all of them have his finger in the trigger guard. One of them shows him dropping a mag with his trigger finger, he's running a reversed Glock magazine catch.

That image was taken from this video where he is shooting a 1911 and dropping mags with his thumb. http://youtu.be/pJFVmO_OsVs

[breakingtime91]

That image was taken from this video where he is shooting a 1911 and dropping mags with his thumb. http://youtu.be/pJFVmO_OsVs

Ok so I watched the whole video and at no point was he unsafe.

[JV_]

ETA:

At what timestamp in the video was the picture taken? at 0:29? His finger is properly indexed during that reload, you can't see any part of it when the gun is angled. Exactly when does he put his finger on the trigger during his target engagement, I have no clue. We don't have enough fps or an angle to judge the rest, IMO.

[Mike R]

None

It is not on from what I can call

pretty likely.


great example of poor gun handling.

JV,

this is what I was referring to in "changing your mind"- wasn't directed specifically at you. I would argue that it is masterful gun handling.

In the screencaps, Todd is displaying what many people here take as "gospel" and good gun handling- yet people aren't clamoring for a DQ for Todd, or talking about changing. People have even reaffirmed that with the press out you get on the trigger before seeing your sights- and due to the technique that is being championed, that means finger on trigger while the gun is pointed in an unsafe direction.

This is the competition subsection, and like Todd, in the name of speed and efficiency the original shooter brings his finger to the trigger and begins to take up slack as he confirms final sight alignment.

I disagree with the premise of Todd's original post, as if the use of the manual safety or having a heavy trigger would change the situation. Either the gun is pointed in a safe direction AND the shooter is engaging targets, or not. In this case, our shooter, we will call him George (name changed to protect the innocent) - is engaging a target and the muzzle is in a safe direction.

In the screencap of Todd, he is in the process of engaging a target, but his finger is on the trigger and the gun is not pointed is a safe direction.

So striking the mag being released screen capture, can you comment on the other images? I know you don't want to judge based on a single image, but both of those are captures of a video that we can easily find.

I do find it funny that someone who shoots for a living with a "space" or "race" gun on a closed competition course gets crucified as unsafe, while someone who is teaching people to draw their weapon in potentially lethal self defense can advocate and display getting on the trigger before the muzzle has reached a safe direction and people don't have a problem with it because it is a factory gun and presumably has a trigger that weighs more than 2.5 lbs.

None of this is intended to be a personal attack on anyone- I am only trying to continue the discussion as I believe that a finger should only be on the trigger while the muzzle is in a safe direction.

[Mr_White]

I was always taught, and maintain that there is no speed advantage to getting on the trigger before both hands come together on the gun at chest level. And then only if you made the conscious decision to fire.

...

And had us do number of draws where you never got into the trigger because you've not yet made a decision to fire, and suggested we incorporate it into our dry fire and range practice to prevent such a training scar.

PPGMD, I could not agree more with this, and this is exactly what I teach as well. And I'd add a further separation - drawing to fire accurately at the earliest opportunity = drawing to sights and finger getting to the trigger while the gun is being extended, vs. drawing without having made the decision to fire yet = drawing to a vision-unobstructed ready position with finger in register.

[Chuck Haggard]

Define "safe direction" in your mind.

[Mike R]

Define "safe direction" in your mind.

I suppose, on a very basic level, where firing a shot would not result in potentially destroying anything I do not want to destroy. Shooting over the berm, at pretty much any range, will result in you being asked to leave, as the bullet is traveling unrestricted outside of the shooting area.

[GJM]

To imply that all USPSA shooters put their fingers on the trigger early, is no more accurate than suggesting all police officers muzzle people with their fingers on the trigger. Certainly some in each group do, but that is neither desirable nor necessarily standard practice.

In my testing, the difference between firing an initial shot on the draw fully prepped versus starting with my finger just lightly contacting the trigger face is .05. However, starting just lightly touching is significantly more accurate for me, making the .05 delta a win for me.

Lots of USPSA shooters have sub 2 pound triggers, and they and RO's are not keen on early loud noises.

[JV_]

wasn't directed specifically at you.Thanks for clarifying.


can you comment on the other images? No. Some of it might be askew, but I'm not interested in hyper-analyzing it. I simply don't care enough. My interest in this thread doesn't go far beyond the first picture, and I don't care what discipline he's shooting.

For me, it's not about finding examples of people doing something which may or may not be wrong, and claiming they should have been DQ'd. My interest is about what I can take-away and improve. I'm sure I need to be more careful with muzzle control and trigger control. It's something I should work on more often, like everything else. I'm sure I screw it up, and I'm sure there are videos of it on the internet.

[breakingtime91]

Mike, I think we are gonna have to agree to disagree with what we think when it comes to the trigger finger.

[breakingtime91]

None

It is not on from what I can call

pretty likely.


great example of poor gun handling.


Without the context of the picture, I shouldn't of said poor gun handling.

[ToddG]

(a) At least one of the pics of "me" that keeps getting put up isn't even me. I'm the guy holding the scoresheet who is dressed exactly like the guy from earlier.

(b) I've been DQd from two matches. One was a USPSA match very early in my shooting career where I did the traditional "sweep absolutely everyone on the range" thing by drawing my gun way too early on the spin for an El Prez. The second was at a major IDPA event where I got kicked for having a gun that just barely didn't fit in the IDPA box; it was later determined that the box was out of spec.

(c) I have absolutely no idea whatsoever how this thread became a discussion about whether the "Super Squad" does press-outs or not. Well, obviously a lot of us do know how that happened, but it has nothing to do with anything germane to the original point or any of the regulars on the forum.

(d) The fact that there are people trying desperately to justify running around with finger on trigger simply proves my point.

And with that, I'm out.

[Scott69]

Are you just referring to the draw or a presentation after movement, as the shooter appears to be doing in the image? Keeping the gun high as you enter a setup and "pressing out" along a relatively straight line is what most high level competitors do, especially when shooting iron sights.

What we refer to as mounting the gun maybe what you are referring to in this instance is a "press out".

[Scott69]

(a) At least one of the pics of "me" that keeps getting put up isn't even me. I'm the guy holding the scoresheet who is dressed exactly like the guy from earlier.

(b) I've been DQd from two matches. One was a USPSA match very early in my shooting career where I did the traditional "sweep absolutely everyone on the range" thing by drawing my gun way too early on the spin for an El Prez. The second was at a major IDPA event where I got kicked for having a gun that just barely didn't fit in the IDPA box; it was later determined that the box was out of spec.

(c) I have absolutely no idea whatsoever how this thread became a discussion about whether the "Super Squad" does press-outs or not. Well, obviously a lot of us do know how that happened, but it has nothing to do with anything germane to the original point or any of the regulars on the forum.

(d) The fact that there are people trying desperately to justify running around with finger on trigger simply proves my point.

And with that, I'm out.

I don't think anyone is justifying running around with their finger on the trigger. I can assure you, from my experience shooting this very stage in the OP, that the shooter was planted and engaging a popper. At no time is is OK to run around with your finger on the trigger. That stage had 3 positions and was 14 rounds. The stage winner shot in in under 7 seconds.

[cclaxton]

I do find it funny that someone who shoots for a living with a "space" or "race" gun on a closed competition course gets crucified as unsafe,
I don't think anyone is crucifying the shooter. The OP's point was to ask if competition trigger habits are degrading our ability to be safe after we walk out of the range. And, I think Darryl summed that up nicely.
Cody

[Bluto]

Does this help answer the time frame, targeting, prep, etc question?
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k12/domfort/Screenshot%202015-04-03%2012.53.37.png

[joshs]

Does this help answer the time frame, targeting, prep, etc question?
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k12/domfort/Screenshot%202015-04-03%2012.53.37.png

Yes. I think the original image didn't capture the shooter lean angle/barricade relationship very well, and made it appear that the gun was a lot more muzzle high than it was in reality.

[cclaxton]

Yes. I think the original image didn't capture the shooter lean angle/barricade relationship very well, and made it appear that the gun was a lot more muzzle high than it was in reality.
The pictures are at different points in time...look at the angle of his elbow.
Cody

[Mike R]

Does this help answer the time frame, targeting, prep, etc question?
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k12/domfort/Screenshot%202015-04-03%2012.53.37.png

If you know where to find that picture, you know where to find the video from behind the gun. There is a camera on a low tripod visible on the right side of the stage- likely the one that captured the image, which is partially why the gun appears to be high. Somewhere, a little further back from the 180, and just out of the gun cam frame, is yours truly.

None of this matters though, because some people have such keen eyes and deep understanding they can tell everything they need to know from one frame.

I think its fair to discuss the topic. This could be a very positive and beneficial discussion that can help people transitioning into the competition world understand proper trigger discipline. Its kind of hard to have an honest discussion about it over all the noise.

I don't care if the trigger is 17 oz or 17 lbs. Safe gun handling is safe, and unsafe gun handling is not. There is no substitute for keeping the gun in a safe direction, and keeping your finger off the trigger unless you are engaging targets.

[cclaxton]

Paging John Hearne: Does the brain's ability to identify friend/foe or shoot/no-shoot come from training or our frontal cortex in a lethal encounter? In other words, regardless of how we trained and overlearned trigger control, are we fast enough to make a no-shoot decision and control our trigger finger?

Cody

[Flexmoney]

And with that, I'm out.

What do you mean you are "out"? I thought you wanted to discuss it?



(a) At least one of the pics of "me" that keeps getting put up isn't even me. I'm the guy holding the scoresheet who is dressed exactly like the guy from earlier.



What are the odds he was called?

What are the odds his safety is on?

What are the odds his trigger weighs more than 2.5#?



Todd, did you DQ the shooter?

[Mr_White]

This could be a very positive and beneficial discussion that can help people transitioning into the competition world understand proper trigger discipline.

That is an interesting point. As a Timmy and a trainer of Timmies who has since begun shooting competitively in USPSA and GSSF, I can say with a glad heart that I have not felt an overriding need to modify my Timmy gunhandling practices to try to win the game. It doesn't seem necessary to me at all. Good gunhandling is good gunhandling.

The only partial exception to that is whether to take care to avoid muzzling no-shoots. Doing that is not going to win the game, but frankly that's also not different than the way I've seen multiple threats usually depicted and addressed in tactical training (with a lack of proximate no-shoots, and the multiple threats dealt with the same as target transitions in competition or other purely technical shooting.)

When the presence of no-shoots is represented in tactical training, there will be lots of times one can and should avoid muzzling the non-threats, but there will also be times that's not a practical option, which is frequently the physical situation represented in competition where you have no-shoots tightly nestled among threat targets. Lots and lots of (static) classical hostage shots depicted in competition.

[breakingtime91]

Wait so... you think everyone who didn't agree with you doesnt understand proper trigger discipline?

[Mike R]

Wait so... you think everyone who didn't agree with you doesnt understand proper trigger discipline?

I'm guessing that was directed towards me, as I used the phrase proper trigger discipline.

What I said is that this could be a very positive and beneficial discussion about what proper trigger control is. I didn't say all y'all don't know trigger control and I know best.

I will say I don't think I saw any of you at stage 11 when "George" shot it, and I highly doubt the people "calling" are DNROI certified- if they are, they need a copy of the rulebook, and or to get out from behind the keyboard.

I still think this discussion could be a productive one. When is it appropriate to get on the trigger is a valid question. Calling something, you didn't see, is BS. Apparently, we've been bamboozled by body doubles but overlooking the finger on the trigger while the muzzle is at nearly 45 degrees to God's green earth seems to be inconsistent.

So when is it appropriate? Only after your wobble zone has settled onto the little dots that make up the A in the middle of the target? Or can you start on your DA pull while you are not quite sure what the bullet will impact because its a long, heavy pull?

Somewhere in between is the truth, and I think that is worth discussing. I disagree that trigger pull weight or mechanical safeties would alter what constitutes good gun handling.

[Mike R]

I can say with a glad heart that I have not felt an overriding need to modify my Timmy gunhandling practices to try to win the game. It doesn't seem necessary to me at all. Good gunhandling is good gunhandling.


Being devoid of Timmy knowledge, this is interesting to me.

On an El Prez, does your finger come off the trigger between targets?

[Mr_White]

Being devoid of Timmy knowledge, this is interesting to me.

On an El Prez, does your finger come off the trigger between targets?

Nope, it sure doesn't. And that's because the situation represented to me in an El Prez is that there are three threats that I've already evaluated and made a decision to shoot, and there aren't no-shoots anywhere near the threats.

If it were changed so that no-shoots were present, then one probably ought to avoid muzzling them (in addition to making finger straight.) But that is also assuming the no-shoots were in a physical position where I could engage the threats without muzzling the no-shoots. If the no-shoots were tight on the threat targets, like one usually sees in USPSA stages, then avoiding muzzling them may not be a practical option. In addition, one could make the decision to go ahead and muzzle the no-shoots in an effort to stop the threats faster, which is essentially a competing harms decision driven by a sense of time urgency.

And of course no matter how you set it up on the range, whether in competition or tactical training, the paper or cardboard targets generally don't move around or change their threat status, so none of it is going to be very realistic in that regard. Those aspects are what scenarios/FOF is good for (evaluation and decisionmaking.)

[Jay Cunningham]

If the no-shoots were tight on the threat targets, like one usually sees in USPSA stages, then avoiding muzzling them may not be a practical option. In addition, one could make the decision to go ahead and muzzle the no-shoots in an effort to stop the threats faster, which is essentially a competing harms decision driven by a sense of time urgency.

This is another way to say "risk assessment", which is a huge component to this entire conversation that is not often talked about in correct context - the conversation is almost always framed as "safety" when "risk" is frequently a more relevant and practical concept.

The likelihood of an event occurring x the consequences of an event = risk. Oftentimes occupations outside of martial ones - nuclear power and aviation come to mind - have a complete doctrine and process regarding risk assessment and risk mitigation that is lacking in the shooting community.

[LSP552]

Paging John Hearne: Does the brain's ability to identify friend/foe or shoot/no-shoot come from training or our frontal cortex in a lethal encounter? In other words, regardless of how we trained and overlearned trigger control, are we fast enough to make a no-shoot decision and control our trigger finger?

Cody

Cody,

I can't discuss the science of this, but I can tell you that it's possible to assess and change from shoot to no shoot during a presentation. Twice in my career, I made a decision to shoot someone, was actively driving the sights into their chest and prepping the trigger when they immediately stopped being worthy of being shot. In a LE context, you really aren't suppose to shoot them when they stop being a threat.

The first time was a suspect with a knife who threatened to stab his mother and was sitting on a sofa holding a butcher knife when we answered the call. My duty weapon was a 4" 66 and it was in my hands when we entered the New Orleans housing project and confronted the suspect. He yells the classic you will have to kill me and jumps to his feet. I snapped the 66 up from low ready and started my trigger press. Knife wielding idiot drops knife and collapses back on the sofa like he was electrocuted, now saying please don't kill me. My partner, who was slightly to my rear and side says, he actually saw the hammer move when I started the press.

The 2nd case was while serving a narcotics warrant. Suspects makes fast grab for PPK in his waist as I drove the front sight of a S&W 439 to his chest and started prepping the trigger. He instantly changed his mind when he saw he was going to be about a second late to the party and didn't get shot.

These are two cases that come to mind where I actually changed my mind not to shoot someone midstream. Cops every day deal with the mental calculus on shoot/don't shoot. Sometimes the decision changes one way or another. You sometimes shoot people you didn't think you were going to and sometimes you change your mind to not shoot them. The decision making process never stops. And that is the big difference between games and not games.

These examples aren't unique. I suspect every LE officer here has similar experiences. It also emphases that street criminals read us as well as we read them.

[Fourtrax]

Cody,

I can't discuss the science of this, but I can tell you that it's possible to assess and change from shoot to no shoot during a presentation. Twice in my career, I made a decision to shoot someone, was actively driving the sights into their chest and prepping the trigger when they immediately stopped being worthy of being shot. In a LE context, you really aren't suppose to shoot them when they stop being a threat.

The first time was a suspect with a knife who threatened to stab his mother and was sitting on a sofa holding a butcher knife when we answered the call. My duty weapon was a 4" 66 and it was in my hands when we entered the New Orleans housing project and confronted the suspect. He yells the classic you will have to kill me and jumps to his feet. I snapped the 66 up from low ready and started my trigger press. Knife wielding idiot drops knife and collapses back on the sofa like he was electrocuted, now saying please don't kill me. My partner, who was slightly to my rear and side says, he actually saw the hammer move when I started the press.

The 2nd case was while serving a narcotics warrant. Suspects makes fast grab for PPK in his waist as I drove the front sight of a S&W 439 to his chest and started prepping the trigger. He instantly changed his mind when he saw he was going to be about a second late to the party and didn't get shot.

These are two cases that come to mind where I actually changed my mind not to shoot someone midstream. Cops every day deal with the mental calculus on shoot/don't shoot. Sometimes the decision changes one way or another. You sometimes shoot people you didn't think you were going to and sometimes you change your mind to not shoot them. The decision making process never stops. And that is the big difference between games and not games.

These examples aren't unique. I suspect every LE officer here has similar experiences. It also emphases that street criminals read us as well as we read them.

This is why the original post is such a massive TROLL.

It is all dependent upon the shooters ability and training. I'm on the trigger at the earliest safe opportunity, EARLIEST. My safe and your safe might be completely different because of our level of training and preparedness.

SAFE can be quantified into a certain range, for the benefit of the masses, but when we take skill set into account, it is completely different for different people.

Most problems arise with definitions when one group tries to pit themselves against another group, Timmies/Gamers. I find that the two groups have completely different goals and to compare them is utterly non sensical.

In the gaming world, I'm a Master Gamer for full disclosure, there are endless vagina battles about stupid little "mechanics" of the game that don't matter 1 big fat baby poop. Same with the Timmies. It does however fill forums to over-flowing and sometimes elevate individuals to a status they don't deserve and can't live up to.

In the end, this thread was a stupid troll. Err, albeit highly successful, I guess, .......it did eat up some 16 pages.

[LittleLebowski]

Fourtrax, let's discuss the subject, not the intent. PM me if you have any questions and thank you for participating in our community here.

[nwhpfan]

Can't seem to embed quote....

[nwhpfan]

Still couldn't get it right....

[nwhpfan]

I disagree with the notion Timmy and Gamers have different goals....

Both desire good hits as fast as possible with no collateral damage. Listen to the gamers because they survive; only half the gunfighters do. I think Col. Jeff Cooper said that....

Me, I'm a Timmy first - although I deny it; but that's what Mr. White told me.

[littlejerry]

I'm curious, if the gun is level and indexed on a target, is the trigger on the finger unsafe? If the competitor engaged the target "point shooting" style, and all rounds hit, is that worthy of reprimand?

I've shot plenty of stages before where I didn't have a solid sight picture on all of the targets. If its 3-5 yards you can get good hits looking over the slide. Is that unsafe?

It's hard to see what's happening in the photo. Clearly its bad to run around with your finger on the trigger if you aren't engaging a target. I can't really pass judgment because I don't know if he was engaging a target. The muzzle looks reasonably level and could easily be centered on the A-zone.

Your sights can be on the target even if your eyes aren't on the sights.

[Fourtrax]

Fourtrax, let's discuss the subject, not the intent. PM me if you have any questions and thank you for participating in our community here.

Gee, you read anything past the first sentence?

The OP should have raised your ire, not me. I ain't pitting one group against the other. I think those kind of senseless shennanigans are pointless.

I'd like to be part of a shooting forum where shooting, all the disciplines, were celebrated.

I was hoping this was the place. But, I guess some here are intolerant?

[cclaxton]

This is why the original post is such a massive TROLL.

It is all dependent upon the shooters ability and training. I'm on the trigger at the earliest safe opportunity, EARLIEST. My safe and your safe might be completely different because of our level of training and preparedness.

SAFE can be quantified into a certain range, for the benefit of the masses, but when we take skill set into account, it is completely different for different people.

Most problems arise with definitions when one group tries to pit themselves against another group, Timmies/Gamers. I find that the two groups have completely different goals and to compare them is utterly non sensical.

In the gaming world, I'm a Master Gamer for full disclosure, there are endless vagina battles about stupid little "mechanics" of the game that don't matter 1 big fat baby poop. Same with the Timmies. It does however fill forums to over-flowing and sometimes elevate individuals to a status they don't deserve and can't live up to.

In the end, this thread was a stupid troll. Err, albeit highly successful, I guess, .......it did eat up some 16 pages.
If we are discussing competition, a standard must be set for it to be as objective as possible. We can't have a rule that says: If you are a GM, you get more leeway than a D class. The standard needs to be clear and deployed fairly.

If we are discussing street tactics, then what really matters is shoot/no-shoot decision-making. That makes the difference between a good shoot and a bad one.
Cody

[LittleLebowski]

Gee, you read anything past the first sentence?

The OP should have raised your ire, not me. I ain't pitting one group against the other. I think those kind of senseless shennanigans are pointless.

I'd like to be part of a shooting forum where shooting, all the disciplines, were celebrated.

I was hoping this was the place. But, I guess some here are intolerant?

PM inbound.

[cclaxton]

Cody,

I can't discuss the science of this, but I can tell you that it's possible to assess and change from shoot to no shoot during a presentation. Twice in my career, I made a decision to shoot someone, was actively driving the sights into their chest and prepping the trigger when they immediately stopped being worthy of being shot. In a LE context, you really aren't suppose to shoot them when they stop being a threat.

The first time was a suspect with a knife who threatened to stab his mother and was sitting on a sofa holding a butcher knife when we answered the call. My duty weapon was a 4" 66 and it was in my hands when we entered the New Orleans housing project and confronted the suspect. He yells the classic you will have to kill me and jumps to his feet. I snapped the 66 up from low ready and started my trigger press. Knife wielding idiot drops knife and collapses back on the sofa like he was electrocuted, now saying please don't kill me. My partner, who was slightly to my rear and side says, he actually saw the hammer move when I started the press.

The 2nd case was while serving a narcotics warrant. Suspects makes fast grab for PPK in his waist as I drove the front sight of a S&W 439 to his chest and started prepping the trigger. He instantly changed his mind when he saw he was going to be about a second late to the party and didn't get shot.

These are two cases that come to mind where I actually changed my mind not to shoot someone midstream. Cops every day deal with the mental calculus on shoot/don't shoot. Sometimes the decision changes one way or another. You sometimes shoot people you didn't think you were going to and sometimes you change your mind to not shoot them. The decision making process never stops. And that is the big difference between games and not games.

These examples aren't unique. I suspect every LE officer here has similar experiences. It also emphases that street criminals read us as well as we read them.
Wow, LSP.
Really thank you for sharing these real world experiences.
It's really valuable to understand that good shoot/no-shoot decision making is what it takes.
Glad we have guys like you out there.
Cody

[Mike R]

If we are discussing competition, a standard must be set for it to be as objective as possible. We can't have a rule that says: If you are a GM, you get more leeway than a D class. The standard needs to be clear and deployed fairly.

Cody

Its not really a question of different standards. It is more a matter of different levels of preparation.

How do you handle shooting on the move? Obviously, as Todd pointed out, we don't want people running around with their finger on the trigger.

However, some people are better at shooting on the move than others. If Chris Tilley can navigate through a stage at 15 mph (watch the 2011 world shoot video) with good hits, and Derek D class can't break 8 mph on a good day without a gun is his hand, do you put a speed limit on Chris? Or to make it fair, do you force everyone to shoot flat footed?

If "George" can put a first round hit on a 30 yard mini popper and on one leg leaning at 30 degrees, do you tell him he can't do it just because others can't?

I think the core issue is again an appropriate combination of muzzle and trigger discipline. I watched the Open and Limited super squads at Nats and I never saw anyone get a "pass" because they were a GM. If you get caught with your finger on the trigger when it shouldn't be you get a trip to the Dairy Queen.

I think Fourtrax spoke well when he said you can get on the trigger at the earliest safe opportunity. If the gun is up, feet planted and you are driving the gun to the target- muzzle is oriented at targets- feel free. If you are hauling out of a position and not engaging targets it better be out of the trigger guard. That's what we see at the top level of shooting, and what should be consistent across the board.

People who haven't witnessed some of these guys shoot can be forgiven for not understand what they see. Really good USPSA shooters blend the shooting and moving a lot better than others. A single frame might show Nils rolling out of a position with brass spitting out of the gun. That's OK- and his trigger is a pound and a half. No loud unwanted noises. Just showing up ready to shoot, and getting out of position as he finishes his last shots.

Just because a baby can't eat steak doesn't mean that shooters aren't safely capable of engaging targets on the move, or as soon as they arrive in a position. Nobody is saying to sacrifice safe trigger and muzzle discipline.

[breakingtime91]

forgiven and baby's eating steak.. lol

[Fourtrax]

Hey, I don't PM. What this place needs is an intellectual enema. You all are LBGTing the discussion. Gee, what's going on here? Is this a free range, open for honest debate forum? Or, do we PM INBOUND anyone that falls out of the forum's nazi muffin' lock step thinking and threaten them?

What a joke!!!

[Kyle Reese]

Hey, I don't PM. What this place needs is an intellectual enema. You all are LBGTing the discussion. Gee, what's going on here? Is this a free range, open for honest debate forum? Or, do we PM INBOUND anyone that falls out of the forum's nazi muffin' lock step thinking and threaten them?

What a joke!!!

Troll elsewhere. You're banned.

[Snapshot]

... we prefer that everyone stick to discussing things/techniques and not people...

And this (along with the remarkable level of knowledge and experience) is why I joined and support this site. There is only so much time for everything and although you quickly learn to skim and skip the nonsense it is really great to have a forum with a consistently high signal to noise ratio.

[rwa]

First post here. I joined this board some time back because I like to read threads devoted to competition shooting. It took some digging, but I finally came up with the entire video of the stage. After viewing the video a dozen times, here is my take as a former USPSA CRO.

1. What are the odds he was called? Called for what? The shooter isn't breaking any USPSA rules. He has entered his shooting position and he is engaging a target per the rules.

2. What are the odds his safety is on? Depends on whether he engaged the safety between arrays. My gut feeling is the safety is not engaged. Muzzle is down range and he is engaging a target. Really no reason to have the safety in the on position.

3. What are the odds his trigger weighs more than 2.5#? On an Open blaster in the hands of a GM shooter? I doubt the trigger pull is over 2.5 lbs. The rules do not have a minimum pull weight requirement. Whether on not the gun is in a safe mechanical condition will be determined at the chrono stage. Whether or not the shooter can handle a sub 2.5 lb. safety will be determined after the buzzer.

Frankly, I thought a discussion on safety in a competition shooting forum would be based on the rules of the sport and possible suggestions for rules revision. Instead, I see 18 pages of discussion, most of it revolving around the same old worn out gamer vs. real world gunslinger.

Bottom line is simple. There is nothing wrong with the shooter's performance in relation to the exisiting rules. What is the agenda here? Is the goal to disparage USPSA as an unsafe sport? While you are at it why not go after NRA Conventional Pistol? Afterall, there are thousands of Bullseye shooters who have their finger in the trigger guard before the sights have settled.

[Mike R]

First post here. I joined this board some time back because I like to read threads devoted to competition shooting. It took some digging, but I finally came up with the entire video of the stage. After viewing the video a dozen times, here is my take as a former USPSA CRO.

1. What are the odds he was called? Called for what? The shooter isn't breaking any USPSA rules. He has entered his shooting position and he is engaging a target per the rules.

2. What are the odds his safety is on? Depends on whether he engaged the safety between arrays. My gut feeling is the safety is not engaged. Muzzle is down range and he is engaging a target. Really no reason to have the safety in the on position.

3. What are the odds his trigger weighs more than 2.5#? On an Open blaster in the hands of a GM shooter? I doubt the trigger pull is over 2.5 lbs. The rules do not have a minimum pull weight requirement. Whether on not the gun is in a safe mechanical condition will be determined at the chrono stage. Whether or not the shooter can handle a sub 2.5 lb. safety will be determined after the buzzer.

Frankly, I thought a discussion on safety in a competition shooting forum would be based on the rules of the sport and possible suggestions for rules revision. Instead, I see 18 pages of discussion, most of it revolving around the same old worn out gamer vs. real world gunslinger.

Bottom line is simple. There is nothing wrong with the shooter's performance in relation to the exisiting rules. What is the agenda here? Is the goal to disparage USPSA as an unsafe sport? While you are at it why not go after NRA Conventional Pistol? Afterall, there are thousands of Bullseye shooters who have their finger in the trigger guard before the sights have settled.

Careful, friend, we've already had one gamer fall to the ax for questioning the intent. I think intent is pretty clear to anyone who can answer the OPs questions.

Its unfortunate because the banned had some really good points. He is just used to expressing himself more freely elsewhere.

The competition forum is kind of a gamer NPE. Half the thread has been about face shooting despite the fact that George is clearly within the USPSA rules.

I hope this can be a place to respectfully discuss honest competition strategy and technique. I haven't posted on here as much as some although I have been a member and a participant for some time. I'm no troll. I think there are some interesting topics and things to discuss here. I think the forum leadership wants competition discussed as evidenced by the presence of specific competition subforums. There just seem to be a lot of people that are code red and can't accept that brown cardboard on a closed course is a "good" shoot and doesn't have a lawyer on retainer.

[BaiHu]

Without knowing the intent of the OP, I feel I can say with certainty that the main vein that runs through this forum is safe gun handling and maintaining it at high levels of speed and stress. Given my paltry knowledge of the rule books, I believe I recall one of the missions of USPSA and IDPA is to promote the sport of shooting and "test" the techniques and practices of LEO and MIL:


Practical shooting is a sport that evolved from experimentation with handguns used for self-defense. The researchers were an international group of private individuals, law enforcement officers, and military people generally operating independently of each other, challenging the then-accepted standards of technique, training practices, and equipment. The work was, for the most part, conducted for their own purposes without official sanction. Even so, what they learned changed the face of police and military training forever.


From their website:
http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-about-history.php

"...challenging the then-accepted standards of technique, training practices, and equipment. The work was, for the most part, conducted for their own purposes without official sanction."

That sounds a lot like what's happening in this thread, no?

[Jay Cunningham]

A couple of you keep going on and on about how you're going to be censored/edited/banned etc. Yet here you are discussing and it hasn't happened yet. If you're looking for some kind of self-fulfilling prophecy, then of course you can tie our hands and force us to do those things.

It all depends on what your goals are. If your goal is to discuss the original topic, it would seem that you're still able to do that, quite openly.

Martyrs... aren't we all?

:)

[GJM]

At times in a subtle way, at other times overtly, PF has historically had a pro mil/LE/timmie but negative competition orientation. The result of that has been many of the very talented competition guys have not been participating. I think that is a real shame, as PF is fantastic forum, and should have a big enough tent that all sorts of shooters, from gamers to face shooters, coexist.

I actually think this thread has broken ground on PF by allowing this particular discussion, which goes to the heart of competition v non-competition to proceed, and be argued on the merits. I think the staff should be commended in a big way for guiding this thread, and taking it from sure disaster, to hopefully the start of a bunch of competitive guys from other places coming and contributing.

[YVK]

Dude, these are two different worlds.

[rwa]

I am still very new here. The competitor is within the rules and is not violating USPSA safety procedures. Yet there are folks who maintain the competitor's gunhandling is not safe. I suppose the logical conclusion is that USPSA rules are unsafe. So do any of you have some recommendations for rules revision that you would like to submit to the rules committee?

[MDS]

This isn't a discussion about the rules of a game. This is a discussion about when is it safe to get on the trigger. The answer, from reading this thread, is ..... "it depends!" I know for myself it's been valuable to read about all the different variables that underlie that answer, from all the different perspectives that the different kinds of shooters bring.

I just wish I didn't have to wade through quite as much unnecessary shenanigans, of which there's been quite a bit on this thread. So please keep the discussion limited to the question: when is it safe to get on the trigger? By keeping this discussion strictly on topic, we can avoid more unnecessary shenanigans.

[LittleLebowski]

Careful, friend, we've already had one gamer fall to the ax for questioning the intent. I think intent is pretty clear to anyone who can answer the OPs questions.

Its unfortunate because the banned had some really good points. He is just used to expressing himself more freely elsewhere.

The competition forum is kind of a gamer NPE. Half the thread has been about face shooting despite the fact that George is clearly within the USPSA rules.

I hope this can be a place to respectfully discuss honest competition strategy and technique. I haven't posted on here as much as some although I have been a member and a participant for some time. I'm no troll. I think there are some interesting topics and things to discuss here. I think the forum leadership wants competition discussed as evidenced by the presence of specific competition subforums. There just seem to be a lot of people that are code red and can't accept that brown cardboard on a closed course is a "good" shoot and doesn't have a lawyer on retainer.

As stated earlier, we are focused on the discussion, not the people. I sure miss Felicci's from when I lived in Vista but not the gun laws :)

[longball]

Against my better judgement I'm going throw my $.02 in here. Is it possible that getting on the trigger, just like almost every other aspect of shooting, whether competition or self defense related, is entirely situationally dependent and reliant on a countless number of variables? At that, variables that we can't possibly account for in every situation unless we are the shooter in that situation? I do believe we should discuss these situations, then apply what we learn to our own gun handling situations. I do not believe we can take our own experiences, skills, and knowledge and decide (especially from one still picture) what is right for someone else in their situation.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BigT]

Dude, these are two different worlds.


But they aren't. Or don't have to be. We get real deal deal face shooters like Pat Mac ,Mike Pannone and Frank Proctor who are also dedicated gamers. There is far more cross over than either side always want to admit. I also know a good number of dedicated gamers who've done spectacular jobs of making bad guys into good bad guys. Because they shoot better than most.

[YVK]

There is an overlap. FWIW, every PF member I talk to shoots games. However, the overlap doesn't represent the masses.

You mentioned some names. I personally trained with Mac, LAV, some dude who had C&S build a gun called Trident (who also liked competition ), and some others. I can tell you, without a doubt, that what's depicted on these photo series is a blatant safety violation in their world. Which is why, I presume, Todd called this thread "safety". Mac, who effectively sets up a stage in his class, will get on your ass if you flip a safety off before the gun is leveled, for example.
Now, consider the responses this evoked from the gaming community. Those are:
- TPOG is the last person to talk about it because of PO.
- It is OK, the shooter is almost on target.
- It is OK because the rule 8 point whatever says it is OK.
- It is OK because of our skills.
It is like speaking different languages.

[rwa]

This isn't a discussion about the rules of a game. This is a discussion about when is it safe to get on the trigger. The OP chose to use a photo of a world class IPSC shooter from a major match. I replied to the original post and the original questions as I see it through the eyes of a Chief Range Officer. In the photo, the shooter is indeed "safe" getting on the trigger as he brings the dot to the popper face.


Is it possible that getting on the trigger, just like almost every other aspect of shooting, whether competition or self defense related, is entirely situationally dependent and reliant on a countless number of variables? Nineteen pages deep and the most valuable answer finally appears. When I run an IPSC stage with my race gun, IPSC safety, IPSC rules, and my personal sense of safety apply. The square range is not the same as a restaurant full of people, a bank lobby, or God forbid, a school cafeteria.

Likewise, a NASCAR race track is not the same as Interstate 25 through Denver at 5:30 pm, or downtown NYC. Just look how "unsafe" NASCAR drivers are when they race. They follow too close, stay is other driver's blind spot, cut folks off, never use their turn signals, and the list goes on and on... Obviously both getting on the trigger and getting on the gas are situationally dependent.

[Mike R]

On the thread above, I will make no comments with respect to 1, but 2 and 3 are true. The rules allow you to shoot a target with your finger on the trigger. 4 is also true, not because skills exempt you from safety but a higher level of skill allows you to safely make shots while moving better. It doesn't exempt anyone from the rules.

As RWA asked above, are the rules unsafe? Do we need a change?

Here is an interesting thought on trigger control:

I was dry firing with a 20 oz 2011 trigger with minimal take up and creep this morning. When prepping the trigger on my carry Glock (with a dot connector and all factory springs) it takes significant pressure to take up the slack (roughly to the point where the trigger resets) and then only a bit to pull through.

On the 2011 trigger the presence of my finger on the trigger shoe takes up the slack without constantly maintaining pressure. If you were to take a percentage of the pull weight in take up vs break I'd guess it's something like 5% take up/95% to break. The Glock is probably more like 50/50. Although the poundage is higher on the "second stage" of the Glock I have already engaged the muscles of the hand and forearm in the direction of the trigger pull.

I feel like I have better control with the 2011 trigger-its like clicking a mouse, vs using a spring loaded center punch. It doesn't take tension to maintain a ready to fire position.

Because of that, I can get on the trigger at the earliest safe opportunity rather than before. By this point we've all seen the finger on trigger/muzzle over berm pictures and I'm not trying to rehash that, but I've noticed DA/SA production shooters typically will get their finger on the trigger earlier on the draw than SA only shooters.

At the end of the day its only having your finger on the trigger when the muzzle is in a safe and deliberate direction where you are willing to own any shots fired that we are discussing, and if people took that to the Timmy world that poor fellow in the parallel thread wouldn't have taken a bullet while being cuffed.

[Chuck Haggard]

I have kind of stayed out of this one because frankly I don't shoot as much USPSA as some folks, and my reasons for shooting it are different. My club knows what I am up to, and they are cool with it. Obviously a dude shooting a Glock 19 from a Summer Special and reloading from under a T-shirt ain't trying to win the match at all costs.

In the other trigger finger thread I just dumped this to a "game vs street" question George asked;


Not speaking for Wayne, but lets say I am drawing to a shot, with a bad guy in the open at fairly close range and standing in front of a brick wall and no one is around him, can I safely start to get my trigger finger into the trigger guard at about the 2 position and work the problem as a press-out? I sure can.

Lets say I have that same bad guy at low ready, giving commands, and he decides to fight, can I get my finger onto the trigger and get the slack out on the rise? Sure, with the worst penalty being that my first shot clips the guy's knee or pelvis because I am a little too much "slack out" on the way up.

Most problems are not that clear cut on the street in the cop world, or the military spec ops world, and the penalty for hitting no shoots is vastly greater than one or five seconds. I note that even at the Tac Conference when people realize that the penalty for hitting a no-shoot is 100 seconds that they slow their roll noticeably.
Now, change the match to where Tom gets to keep your guns, your wallet and your car if you shoot a no-shoot and you have to walk home wearing a dunce cap, and see how people start to act.

I get in the other thread where folks are talking "match vs street", totally get it, and get that you may be giving up micro seconds in the match and may not score as well by going a tad slower. Some of us are willing to live with that.

Lots of spec ops guys, and some really famous ones with mad skills, shoot competition, I am not them but I am a big proponent for doing so as well. Although they might be really, really good, obviously Proctor is being a GM, I doubt any of them will end up a national champ because of some of this stuff we are talking about. Maybe I'm wrong, it's been known to happen.

Ref "no shoots", I was in a training where Kyle Lamb talked about almost being fired from Delta, this was just before they were deployed to Somalia and eventually into the Blackhawk Down fight, in fact he was fired and the paperwork just hadn't been done yet, when a senior NCO stepped in and asked the commander to give him a chance to remediate Lamb's training. Lamb had been on a shoot house exercise and had shot a "no shoot" target, that was why he was being fired.

Think about that for a second. He was being FIRED from the unit for shooting a single no shoot on a run through the house.

Said senior NCO was told that he could try and fix the problem, but that if Lamb "fucks up again, you're both gone". The NCO took that challenge, and we now know how CSM Kyle Lamb's career went after that.

[BigT]

There is an overlap. FWIW, every PF member I talk to shoots games. However, the overlap doesn't represent the masses.

You mentioned some names. I personally trained with Mac, LAV, some dude who had C&S build a gun called Trident (who also liked competition ), and some others. I can tell you, without a doubt, that what's depicted on these photo series is a blatant safety violation in their world. Which is why, I presume, Todd called this thread "safety". Mac, who effectively sets up a stage in his class, will get on your ass if you flip a safety off before the gun is leveled, for example.
Now, consider the responses this evoked from the gaming community. Those are:
- TPOG is the last person to talk about it because of PO.
- It is OK, the shooter is almost on target.
- It is OK because the rule 8 point whatever says it is OK.
- It is OK because of our skills.
It is like speaking different languages.

interestingly on Alias's Facebook page last Thursday there is a picture of Pat Mac turning and drawing. Some on this thread would vomit down their shirts if they saw where his finger enters the trigger guard . I know he knows more than me about using guns for real. Not saying it's right, but that what's in the pic.

As as a gamer the point has been made that the dude in the pic is in the process of shooting. There now appears no doubt about that. As I mentioned earlier there are times in defensive training we shoot without a visual on sights. And there are times when as gamers we do the same.

ps I have also trained with some of the names I and you mentioned , and while I can't speak for them , do think they may see this as not a safety failure in context.

[YVK]

I think this is a classic example of people doing what they think they're doing vs doing what they are actually doing. Irrespective of their level of expertise. I believe that people get on triggers earlier than they think. One reason I stopped carrying Glocks because I know I did. Perhaps not a purist way of dealing with it by putting an LEM or DA pull between my finger and bang, that's what I did.

You're right, the context is everything, but I believe that the dudes who practice taking planes down with live ammo while their mates are sitting in hostage seats will have a pretty universal opinion on this particular example.

[JV_]

I think this is a classic example of people doing what they think they're doing vs doing what they are actually doing.

Anytime I see a picture of a clueful shooter doing something different/interesting/askew, I wonder if what they're doing is intentional or a mistake. I know I have plenty of bad habits caught on camera.

[GJM]

I think this is a classic example of people doing what they think they're doing vs doing what they are actually doing. Irrespective of their level of expertise. I believe that people get on triggers earlier than they think. One reason I stopped carrying Glocks because I know I did. Perhaps not a purist way of dealing with it by putting an LEM or DA pull between my finger and bang, that's what I did.

You're right, the context is everything, but I believe that the dudes who practice taking planes down with live ammo while their mates are sitting in hostage seats will have a pretty universal opinion on this particular example.

Leaving aside that this is a competition sub forum thread, when would you advocate putting your finger on the trigger, and does that timing differ with a no-shoot present versus an unobstructed target?

I have heard a very smart, regular poster here suggest that having a longer, heavier trigger* mostly means you will need to start pressing it earlier than with a lighter trigger -- effectively canceling out the safety benefit of the longer, heavier trigger, since the lighter trigger allows you to start pressing it later.


*The trigger weight is a different issue than a hammer, which allows you to thumb it when holstering.

[LittleLebowski]

At times in a subtle way, at other times overtly, PF has historically had a pro mil/LE/timmie but negative competition orientation. The result of that has been many of the very talented competition guys have not been participating. I think that is a real shame, as PF is fantastic forum, and should have a big enough tent that all sorts of shooters, from gamers to face shooters, coexist.

I actually think this thread has broken ground on PF by allowing this particular discussion, which goes to the heart of competition v non-competition to proceed, and be argued on the merits. I think the staff should be commended in a big way for guiding this thread, and taking it from sure disaster, to hopefully the start of a bunch of competitive guys from other places coming and contributing.

Speaking from a Staff perspective, I don't agree with your summation of the PF focus and/or negativity towards gamers but maybe the wrong impression was given or more likely, a vocal group of gamers tried to propagate that impression. Anyway, I've taken quite a few "Timmy" classes and they were good fun, helped me work on some skills that needs working on. That being said, my personal goal is to attend more local matches now that my kids are getting older and I probably would have been better off competing instead of taking training classes. For me, matches and dry fire seem to be the best way to focus myself to become a better shooter. I don't care about the competition aspect of gaming except with regards to furthering my own skills, particularly in stage planning (good god, I suck there!).

Tom's working on the "Banned from PF" badge for the martyrs who have nothing else to do than to find some imagined slight and get banned over it :D Meanwhile, PF is a shooting competition friendly place but it's not the place for flame wars. There's another forum for that and it seems to serve a needed purpose but please not here.

Insofar as my take on the picture that started this monster thread, I honestly thought the argument was settled when a guy who was there when the picture was taken, actually chimed in.

[Lomshek]

interestingly on Alias's Facebook page last Thursday there is a picture of Pat Mac turning and drawing. Some on this thread would vomit down their shirts if they saw where his finger enters the trigger guard . I know he knows more than me about using guns for real. Not saying it's right, but that what's in the pic.

I'm guessing you mean this pic? That's a lot earlier on the trigger than I strive for (not going to claim I don't screw up when I'm stepping on the gas; maybe that's what he did) but I'm gonna let someone more experienced than me throw rocks at that dude.

https://scontent-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/11133839_678406015618922_1813092448509296225_n.jpg ?oh=aa0f2c9da95aeb523506678d6483dbfe&oe=55A860FD

(For the purposes of learning it'd be handy to have a video camera operator try to capture my trigger finger as often as they safely can to see exactly when I leave my register position).

[Lomshek]

Double tap!

[BigT]

I'm guessing you mean this pic? That's a lot earlier on the trigger than I strive for (not going to claim I don't screw up when I'm stepping on the gas; maybe that's what he did) but I'm gonna let someone more experienced than me throw rocks at that dude.

https://scontent-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/11133839_678406015618922_1813092448509296225_n.jpg ?oh=aa0f2c9da95aeb523506678d6483dbfe&oe=55A860FD

(For the purposes of learning it'd be handy to have a video camera operator try to capture my trigger finger as often as they safely can to see exactly when I leave my register position).


That's the pic. And I'm sure as he'll not throwing rocks at the dude. I'm using it as an example of a switched on shooter who is more than a gamer doing something many here condemn as a gamer thing.

[cclaxton]

The role of TIME is a big factor in shooting. I used to shoot an IDPA club in Pennsylvania that has a 360 degree berm and a shoothouse in the middle of it made mostly of plywood with rooms, hallways, doors, etc. The way we shoot that is using PAR time of 100 seconds, and roughly 8-10 targets. Interspersed in the house would also be non-threats. All targets had pictures on them of a Gun (threat), Wrench/Cellphone/flashlight (non-threat), knife (threat) and Gun/Knife with a LE badge. There were a lot of corners to turn, doors to open, and shoot-throughs (if you didn't shoot it just right).

The first 8 times I went through that house I shot it too fast, hit at least one LEO target (sorry LE's), and/or hit another non-threat, or failed to identify/find a threat target. Once I relaxed and paced myself (TIME) and looked at every target closely, I was finally able to go through that shoothouse without hitting a non-threat and getting all my targets (down zero, 100s). What I learned was to "Be sure of your target and what's beyond it." Where have I heard that before? Anyway, it taught me a very valuable lesson: BE SURE.

Here's the thing: In competition you KNOW these are not real people, so you give yourself permission to go as fast as you can and get your hits because time is running in .1sec increments. Your focus is on competition. But on the street time is variable. Yes, making your threat shots needs to be fast, and competition helps you to get those shots off fast. But you know it's not competition, you know those are real people and you know you have a liability if you shoot the wrong ones. You may even have a liability if you shoot the right ones. So, perhaps the fact that you are not on the clock on the street and you are not competing but defending your life or the lives of others, you will be more careful. I have never been in that situation, so I don't have first hand experience. Perhaps some others here can tell me if this theory makes sense?
Cody

[joshs]

Insofar as my take on the picture that started this monster thread, I honestly thought the argument was settled when a guy who was there when the picture was taken, actually chimed in.

I agree. As someone who is involved in image approval of people often holding or using firearms, I still don't understand why the initial image would get used in an advertisement. Whenever we post a picture where the shooter has their finger on the trigger, even if the gun is clearly aimed-in at eye level, there are inevitably many complaints about using an image showing "poor" finger discipline. The initial photo, without any understanding of the stage layout or camera angle, looks pretty bad, but the second photo with the gun in full recoil seems to show that the muzzle is pointed at the target, or just slightly above, in the first image (assuming the shot in the second image was a hit).

[taadski]

Speaking from a Staff perspective, I don't agree with your summation of the PF focus and/or negativity towards gamers but maybe the wrong impression was given or more likely, a vocal group of gamers tried to propagate that impression.

Actually, I think there has been a pretty consistent tendency on the site for some "timmies" (I'm a "timmy" also, btw) to disparage what the elite shooters in the world are doing because "tactical vs gamer" instead of appreciating it as an example of what is possible mechanically (and probably more importantly, visually) at the elite level and trying to learn from it.

As has been alluded, I think it's hard to understand that level of refinement and it's potential application in the tactical realm. As a result, I listen VERY closely to the folks that have both BTDT AND have reached high levels in the competitive realm. The consistent assertion that speed and the pursuit of managing it is somehow going to lead to "outrunning the headlights" is particularly cumbersome. IMO, there's A LOT that can be learned from the gamer side regarding becoming a better, faster (and more consistent and observant :eek:) shooter. "Outrunning the headlights" under stress, it seems to me, is perhaps in part a function of not having experience and training functioning at those speeds.

[JV_]

Actually, I think there has been a pretty consistent tendency on the site for some "timmies" (I'm a "timmy" also, btw) to disparage what the elite shooters in the world are doing because "tactical vs gamer" instead of appreciating it as an example of what is possible mechanically (and probably more importantly, visually) at the elite level and trying to learn from it.

I guess I've been good at ignoring it because I generally view getting my hits faster to be a good thing.

[YVK]

Leaving aside that this is a competition sub forum thread...

It only shows how efd up my days have been, but I could swear that this thread was initially started in a gun handling sub forum...


when would you advocate putting your finger on the trigger, and does that timing differ with a no-shoot present versus an unobstructed target?



Let's see, I am a civilian timmy who started to shoot in late 30s, I so far have put on nothing but shitshows in competition, and you want me to go over what I think people should do when they shoot?

Sure, no problem. :)

I think you shouldn't put your finger on a trigger of a short throw, light pull gun, or perhaps any gun, until the gun is aimed at the target with a degree of certainty dictated by target's difficulty and potential for a collateral damage.
Unless you can plead rule 8.xxx.




I have heard a very smart, regular poster here suggest that having a longer, heavier trigger* mostly means you will need to start pressing it earlier than with a lighter trigger -- effectively canceling out the safety benefit of the longer, heavier trigger, since the lighter trigger allows you to start pressing it later.




There's a theoretical plausibility data, and there's outcomes data. Here'smy outcomes data:
-16K live Glock rounds - 6 "too soon" NDs.
-30K live LEM and TDA rounds - 0 such NDs. Same or nearly same draw times. As far as I am concerned, case closed.

[LittleLebowski]

Actually, I think there has been a pretty consistent tendency on the site for some "timmies" (I'm a "timmy" also, btw) to disparage what the elite shooters in the world are doing because "tactical vs gamer" instead of appreciating it as an example of what is possible mechanically (and probably more importantly, visually) at the elite level and trying to learn from it.

As has been alluded, I think it's hard to understand that level of refinement and it's potential application in the tactical realm. As a result, I listen VERY closely to the folks that have both BTDT AND have reached high levels in the competitive realm. The consistent assertion that speed and the pursuit of managing it is somehow going to lead to "outrunning the headlights" is particularly cumbersome. IMO, there's A LOT that can be learned from the gamer side regarding becoming a better, faster (and more consistent and observant :eek:) shooter. "Outrunning the headlights" under stress, it seems to me, is perhaps in part a function of not having experience and training functioning at those speeds.

From what I can remember, there were a few people who made the point (repeatedly) that gaming isn't training. However, I may be wrong about the history of our forum here. Going forward, I'd prefer neither Timmy nor gamer are disparaged.

Gaming takes me out of my happy little comfort zone and forces me to work on shooting on the move and planning. Yesterday I was literally walking down a seesaw like setup (it was about a 3' wide wooden contraption), stopping at the other end hit the ground and shooting from about midway up the seesaw. Completely. Out. Of. My. Comfort. Zone. Same for hauling ass and shooting on the move accurately. I saw Ravin Perry (https://www.facebook.com/ravinperryshooting) do some shooting, moving, and damned near acrobatics that I'd never even envisioned before. So, I like shooting for fun and want to be better at it. Competition is good for that.

[Mr_White]

Actually, I think there has been a pretty consistent tendency on the site for some "timmies" (I'm a "timmy" also, btw) to disparage what the elite shooters in the world are doing because "tactical vs gamer" instead of appreciating it as an example of what is possible mechanically (and probably more importantly, visually) at the elite level and trying to learn from it.

As has been alluded, I think it's hard to understand that level of refinement and it's potential application in the tactical realm. As a result, I listen VERY closely to the folks that have both BTDT AND have reached high levels in the competitive realm. The consistent assertion that speed and the pursuit of managing it is somehow going to lead to "outrunning the headlights" is particularly cumbersome. IMO, there's A LOT that can be learned from the gamer side regarding becoming a better, faster (and more consistent and observant :eek:) shooter. "Outrunning the headlights" under stress, it seems to me, is perhaps in part a function of not having experience and training functioning at those speeds.

Very well said, taadski, and I agree.

[BigT]

"Outrunning the headlights" under stress, it seems to me, is perhaps in part a function of not having experience and training functioning at those speeds.


Thats it. I think the faster and harder people push themselves in training the faster those headlight will be running along. As our skill increases our ability to process what is happening increases. Also as our experience increases our "awareness" , for want of a better term, of the gun exists. I'm a reasonable competition shooter. I can shoot two alphas on some targets with hardly any thought or focus if they're easy enough. Targets that as a beginner took a lot more work to get the same hit. I watch better shooters than me blaze past those self same targets with barely a blip on concentration with the same hits. All while being safe. They're acutely aware of what the gun is doing and where it is while just pointing their arms at it. A new shooter may be less aware of his gun and where it is pointing even when he's looking at it. Someone mentioned earlier. We don't hamstring the better shooter because they are capable of ,safely, doing things others aren't.

[cclaxton]

From what I can remember, there were a few people who made the point (repeatedly) that gaming isn't training. However, I may be wrong about the history of our forum here. Going forward, I'd prefer neither Timmy nor gamer are disparaged.

Gaming takes me out of my happy little comfort zone and forces me to work on shooting on the move and planning. Yesterday I was literally walking down a seesaw like setup (it was about a 3' wide wooden contraption), stopping at the other end hit the ground and shooting from about midway up the seesaw. Completely. Out. Of. My. Comfort. Zone. Same for hauling ass and shooting on the move accurately. I saw Ravin Perry (https://www.facebook.com/ravinperryshooting) do some shooting, moving, and damned near acrobatics that I'd never even envisioned before. So, I like shooting for fun and want to be better at it. Competition is good for that.
I shot that stage!....It was incredibly fun...and a little scary. I loved it. I heard some people ran around and pulled the seesaw down rather than walking it...not nearly as much fun IMHO. This happens at IDPA sanctioned matches as well, for instance at the last Carolina Cup we had to do a weak hand reload. Dark matches always make me look live a novice and push me out of my comfort zone.
Cody

[nycnoob]

Nineteen pages deep and the most valuable answer finally appears. When I run an IPSC stage with my race gun, IPSC safety, IPSC rules, and my personal sense of safety apply. The square range is not the same as a restaurant full of people, a bank lobby, or God forbid, a school cafeteria.

Likewise, a NASCAR race track is not the same as Interstate 25 through Denver at 5:30 pm, or downtown NYC. Just look how "unsafe" NASCAR drivers are when they race. They follow too close, stay is other driver's blind spot, cut folks off, never use their turn signals, and the list goes on and on... Obviously both getting on the trigger and getting on the gas are situationally dependent.

No one has said that these situations have to be handled the same. However Neyti is claiming that you many not be able to switch off of "race mode" if you have never practiced the other.
I know that SouthNarc does infact practice several different ways of performing some actions. I was impressed with a comment he made in class about "consciously choosing" which way
he was going to perform the task (sorry I do not remember exactly what he was referring to) so clearly he practiced doing it several different ways.

So I guess the question here is, if you believe there are different "contexts" that drive your action. Do you practice for all the contexts or just the "race" one. Hearne keeps taking about recency being a very important part of your ability to perform, so if you have not practiced "late finger on the trigger" or "no muzzling no-shoots" there is a questions about if you actually could
perform those tasks under stress.

[Dagga Boy]

The OP chose to use a photo of a world class IPSC shooter from a major match. I replied to the original post and the original questions as I see it through the eyes of a Chief Range Officer. In the photo, the shooter is indeed "safe" getting on the trigger as he brings the dot to the popper face.

Nineteen pages deep and the most valuable answer finally appears. When I run an IPSC stage with my race gun, IPSC safety, IPSC rules, and my personal sense of safety apply. The square range is not the same as a restaurant full of people, a bank lobby, or God forbid, a school cafeteria.

Likewise, a NASCAR race track is not the same as Interstate 25 through Denver at 5:30 pm, or downtown NYC. Just look how "unsafe" NASCAR drivers are when they race. They follow too close, stay is other driver's blind spot, cut folks off, never use their turn signals, and the list goes on and on... Obviously both getting on the trigger and getting on the gas are situationally dependent.

I really shouldn't post as based on texts I am getting...."Facebook" thinks I am an idiot. I almost used my Nascar analogy in the thread in the other sub forum where I am trying to stay. I erased it because I started thinking about it and most sports involving use of machinery at high levels exercise far great safety. Roll cages, belt systems, seats, nomex, helmets, and limited speed and acceleration, changes of tires, mega performance brakes and suspension, etc. it is funny, I have maxed what a non-Nascar driver can run on the Fontana speedway in a Nascar vehicle. Had no issues with the stress at all as it was far less than any of the pursuits I have been in. No issues with blowing red lights, pedestrians,refrigerators in alleys, people around you panicking, it was fun and was just about the driving. I left with a similar respect for top drivers in nascar as I have for top level competitive shooters, which is huge. With that said, it is very different than what I did daily in a black and white. Gun handling and shooting is also different. I just want to re-iterate....it's your sport, be as safe as you want. Just quit trying to justify it as having a ton of benefit in the middle of a crowded 7-11.

I have tons of pictures in my files of the top folks in the world doing stuff that is not correct for working around unpredictable circumstances. They range from the top competitive folks to the same string of photo's from the Alias site. I just figure nobody really gives a crap. My only problem is I train LE folks and people interested in defensive shooting in the US. I have to still care because if it is a cop doing what our top competition folks and special operations guys do and you are down range of them it will likely be an issue you may not like to deal with. Trust me, they don't think they are doing anything wrong either when they do it....you know, because of fast. Still have a ton of cops,including my old shooting and beat partner who drive without seat belts...cause its faster in case of an ambush. Many are still early on triggers as well because...faster. Guess it doesn't matter unless it's too fast....kind of like both Nascar and the street....it's all good until you hit the wrong thing.

[BN]

At times in a subtle way, at other times overtly, PF has historically had a pro mil/LE/timmie but negative competition orientation.


I think the only person on this forum I know personally is Todd, so most of you have no idea who I am. I am a competition shooter first but I am a closet Timmie. :) There is an anti competition undercurrent on PF.com. Even some of the people who say they shoot in competition have made negative comments. I think this thread is starting to make inroads to correct that.

[taadski]

I'll take the formula one driver with the healthy dose of street driving experience for $1000, Alex!

:cool:

[LittleLebowski]

Actually, I think there has been a pretty consistent tendency on the site for some "timmies" (I'm a "timmy" also, btw) to disparage what the elite shooters in the world are doing because "tactical vs gamer" instead of appreciating it as an example of what is possible mechanically (and probably more importantly, visually) at the elite level and trying to learn from it.

As has been alluded, I think it's hard to understand that level of refinement and it's potential application in the tactical realm. As a result, I listen VERY closely to the folks that have both BTDT AND have reached high levels in the competitive realm. The consistent assertion that speed and the pursuit of managing it is somehow going to lead to "outrunning the headlights" is particularly cumbersome. IMO, there's A LOT that can be learned from the gamer side regarding becoming a better, faster (and more consistent and observant :eek:) shooter. "Outrunning the headlights" under stress, it seems to me, is perhaps in part a function of not having experience and training functioning at those speeds.

Meh, I think there is more than one guy on here misconstruing what one or a coupla people say as representing the entire site. I've told you guys competition is welcome here and that I shoot matches. I'm not going to apologize for other forum member's comments that are COC compliant. I've got enough military experience to realize how much the infantry pales compared to certain other MOSs with regards to gun handling and it's not like I'm winning matches but....do we HAVE to worry so much about what one discipline thinks about another discipline? Is this some sort of cathartic thread where PF is castigated for not being nice to competitive shooters? I can change my title to Timmy if that would help :D

[cclaxton]

Many are still early on triggers as well because...faster. Guess it doesn't matter unless it's too fast....kind of like both Nascar and the street....it's all good until you hit the wrong thing.
I like.
Cody

[GJM]

How does getting your finger there early help in competition?

[taadski]

...but....do we HAVE to worry so much about what one discipline thinks about another discipline? Is this some sort of cathartic thread where PF is castigated for not being nice to competitive shooters? I can change my title to Timmy if that would help :D

I'm not concerned about folks getting their feelers ruffled. I'm concerned about the fact that sound information from a group that includes some of the best pure shooters on the planet has had a tendency to get stifled by the dogma.

[cclaxton]

I wonder what Robert Vogel would say on this subject? I don't know him, somebody?
Cody

[JHC]

I wonder what Robert Vogel would say on this subject? I don't know him, somebody?
Cody

I've seen a few on it early pics of him. ;)

[LittleLebowski]

I'm not concerned about folks getting their feelers ruffled. I'm concerned about the fact that sound information from a group that includes some of the best pure shooters on the planet has had a tendency to get stifled by the dogma.

Well, you've heard the intent of a Staff member. Shall we go forward and discuss your aforementioned sound information?

[LittleLebowski]

Moved this thread to the Romper Room because....tangents. Carry on :)

[LittleLebowski]

I shot that stage!....It was incredibly fun...and a little scary. I loved it.

Same here! I can't remember which stage it was but I got a procedural because of a swinger that wasn't working. They deactivated the swinger (because it wasn't working) but you still have to shoot the target that activated it first and of course, I screwed that up because I suck at stage planning. Happily, I have no fucks to give about placing; I just want to get gooder at shooting and I had a great squad with friends in it and supra human shooters to study and emulate (Ravin Perry).

[TGS]

Moved this thread to the Romper Room because....tangents. Carry on :)

Wow, I never even saw this thread since I don't hang around the Competition forum.

1) I never saw anything wrong with the original photo. The added context from the additional photo pretty much verifies it for me, personally.

2) Re: the other photos: Check yourself before you wreck yourself. I think they are a greater example of a safety violation than the original photo, and should be the ones discussed to learn from.

3) Humans are imperfect, and this is why I prefer a DA trigger. :)

[GardoneVT]

3) Humans are imperfect, and this is why I prefer a DA trigger. :)

Was there not a German government study to the effect that a certain percentage of people will put their finger on the trigger as an instinctive habit even if extensively trained otherwise?

[Dagga Boy]

Was there not a German government study to the effect that a certain percentage of people will put their finger on the trigger as an instinctive habit even if extensively trained otherwise?

Could you throw that up in the other thread please. Now that this is Romper Room stuff it lacks any level of seriousness....says a lot when safety becomes a Romper Room discussion.

[Mike R]

How does getting your finger there early help in competition?

Depends on what you mean by "early". The earliest safe opportunity isn't too early as none of the cardinal safety rules are violated. I was saying that light triggers allow me to access the trigger later without negatively impacting performance, where the longer/heavier triggers may force you into believing you need to get on the trigger before its pointed in a safe direction- see the pictures from earlier in the thread. If your focus was face shooting, you want to be sure you don't shoot the wrong face- I get that- but I've never seen a piece of cardboard do anything to deserve clemency other than be blown over by the wind, in which case we reshoot the stage.

On that, Bob is a competitive GM- and he is on the trigger as early or earlier than his peers, and I don't find fault in him one bit for doing it. Lots of people are white knighting for the tactical world and pretending that they don't get on the trigger that early (or earlier) when they are in a hurry either but the photos of Todd and the spinning guy prove otherwise. Our local clubs are near Pendleton, and the only guys I see getting warnings rather than a DQ on the rules are guys with short haircuts. I'm not trying to cause a divide, I am only presenting food for thought.

If you are LE and want to wait until whatever you want to have happen, happens, to move to the trigger that is great. If you were pointing a gun at me I would hope for no finger/trigger contact as well.

I notice a lot of people deciding to play not to win, and if that makes you happy more power to you. Not everyone is motivated to win and that is OK. If you want to remove your finger between targets on your way to a 10 second El Prez, scan and assess before you holster, and that does it for you, great. Mr. White's trigger practices seem to be consistent with the timmy and gamer worlds and it doesn't seem to be holding him back in either one from what I can tell- it sounds to me like he bridges the gap by avoiding hyperbolistic dogma and thinking. A lot of that revolves around deciding to shoot the targets at a match ahead of time, which you may not always be able to do outside of a square range.

If you were to keep a hard finger register and only bring it to the trigger after confirming sight alignment adequate for firing the shot you would be more likely to either be delayed in doing so or you would be slapping the trigger. By moving the finger to the trigger sooner you prevent the position of the trigger finger from being on the "longest path" to breaking the shot. I think a full fledged tactician admitted that breaking shots from a hard register in a hurry tends to result in pulling them.

I couldn't find this thread this morning until I saw on another forum that it had been moved. Why did it get moved?

[rwa]

I just want to re-iterate....it's your sport, be as safe as you want. Just quit trying to justify it as having a ton of benefit in the middle of a crowded 7-11.

This was posted in reply to some of my remarks. Where did this come from? I said absolutely nothing about "my sport" having any benefit in a 7-11 or anywhere else outside of a square range.

FWIW, I am former LEO. I assist in firearms training for a state, a county, and a local LEO agency. Along the way I have shot in many competition venues. Yeah, I am a "gamer" (USPSA Grandmaster). My perspective of any value my competition gunhandling skills may have on the street hasn't entered into the discussion. I would like to keep it that way.

[cclaxton]

Moved this thread to the Romper Room because....tangents. Carry on :)
I didn't think it had gone so far as to deserve the Romper Room. Lots thought this was a good thread.
Cody

[Chuck Haggard]

Example of the German study;
http://www.policeone.com/police-products/firearms/articles/94371-Can-you-really-prevent-unintentional-discharges/

And where I differ with the article conclusions is that I believe the "hard register" is where we teach people to not be on the trigger until they should be on the trigger.

Mike R, I don't know of any competent tactical shooting instructor that teaches you don't touch the trigger until the sights are on target, in fact I teach the opposite, with good muzzle control, as one will in fact slap the trigger as you have noted if they wait that long.

This bit;

That concern is shared in the U.S. Just last week the Washington (DC) Times reported a startling review by the federal government of 267 shootings by agents from the FBI, ATF, DEA and the U.S. Marshals Service during fiscal 2000 through fiscal 2003. More than 5% of the total (14) were determined to be "unintentional discharges during enforcement operations,"

Is the kind of thing that Wayne, Darryl and myself try to train people out of.

[Dagga Boy]

This was posted in reply to some of my remarks. Where did this come from? I said absolutely nothing about "my sport" having any benefit in a 7-11 or anywhere else outside of a square range.

FWIW, I am former LEO. I assist in firearms training for a state, a county, and a local LEO agency. Along the way I have shot in many competition venues. Yeah, I am a "gamer" (USPSA Grandmaster). My perspective of any value my competition gunhandling skills may have on the street hasn't entered into the discussion. I would like to keep it that way.

It was quoted in regards to the Nascar analogy as I erased a long post with a Nascar analogy, so we were just thinking along the same lines so I quoted you. The comment about 7-11 is the generalized consensus that seems to exist that if it comes from the sport shooting world, it is the best practice. Again, generalized on that one and not directed to you personally. Sorry for the confusion, my bad.

As a simple parting thought as I will try to stay out of this thread (even though I keep coming back for some dumb reason) is that this comes down to training towards the four basic safety rules with full understanding of what they mean, or don't break the 180 and don't shoot yourself. Those seem to be the big choices out there. Make a choice about what works for you and hope the results are positive and take responsibility for that choice.

[LittleLebowski]

I didn't think it had gone so far as to deserve the Romper Room. Lots thought this was a good thread.
Cody

It still is a good thread but we experienced a bit of drift with regards to the perceived goals of PF, PF history, and whatnot. Please continue the discussion if you like.

[LittleLebowski]

Could you throw that up in the other thread please. Now that this is Romper Room stuff it lacks any level of seriousness....says a lot when safety becomes a Romper Room discussion.

See my previous post. I've been shot in an ND (http://pistol-training.com/articles/how-i-got-shot), I take safety extremely seriously, I can assure you.

[TGS]

Was there not a German government study to the effect that a certain percentage of people will put their finger on the trigger as an instinctive habit even if extensively trained otherwise?

Good mention, and thanks to Chuck for linking it.

In cave/tech diving we say, "If you dont notice yourself doing something wrong every now and then, you're probably just not paying attention."

I think that applies to other high risk activities, like shooting. It's nice to see a study on the subject.

[LittleLebowski]

Thread moved back due to rabble with torches and pitchforks :D

[cclaxton]

Thread moved back due to rabble with torches and pitchforks :D
Thank You. Still laughing.
Cody

[LittleLebowski]

Any of the competitors here (who complained about the perceived PF bias against theirs and my sport) think that this thread (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?15586-trigger-finger-safety/page8) shows some sort of PF institutional bias against competitive shooting or can we agree that it's a discussion with differing opinions?

[Mike R]

Any of the competitors here (who complained about the perceived PF bias against theirs and my sport) think that this thread (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?15586-trigger-finger-safety/page8) shows some sort of PF institutional bias against competitive shooting or can we agree that it's a discussion with differing opinions?

I wasn't going to say anything more, but since you asked...

For one, that's outside of the competition sub forum so I'd say feel free to Timmy your heart out.

The institutional bias is totally "kittening" there. You have guys talking about how in competition "rules 2 and 3 are optional", about how they missed the USPSA "anything goes memo", and the only reason its not more prevalent is no competitors are interrupting the face shooting discussion. One of the two who did venture there was banned and told "he wasn't from around here". In fact, he was reminded of that when you followed him to another forum to belittle him for your perception of his observance of his beliefs.

What happen if I started a new thread in gun handling, with the picture of Todd on the trigger?

Discuss: Safety

What are the chances the guy on the timer stopped him and said, hey, that's unsafe?

What are the chances that over the berm is a safe direction?

What are the chances a heavy trigger negates the need for the 4 rules?

How would that be received? As a side note, if you are in the club you can use the acronym TPOG but apparently if you shoot games more than occasionally it is forbidden.

The bias is there. It's why a lot of good competitors don't bother posting here, which is unfortunate. It doesn't have to be that way, and an unfettered or lightly moderated discussion could benefit a lot of people. AFAIK, all disciplinary action and thread editing has occurred to gamers. I know, I'm nothing more than a rabble rousing gamer.

I've tried to talk about the topic, I've had PMs with staff about this and I dont think its an insurmountable obstacle. I started on this forum and think it doesn't have to pit the parties against each other. I carry AIWB in a shaggy when I travel- I'm not so different from the core membership here, but if you want to tell a competitor he is wrong for deciding to shoot the cardboard during the walkthrough and not on the fly... it kind of seems like you are talking down to them. I don't see why face shooting needs to be discussed at all in a competition thread. If somebody feels like they need to justify why they are in C class... I guess. Its kinda like when a guy has a 1.5s draw and feels like hr has to make fun of "race guns". Feel free. Consent and participation are voluntary, and the competition guys will stay in their lanes- its up to the staff to decide if they want a robust competition lane on this site or not.

Maybe I am too sensitive and not bearded enough for this site... I guess I'll go sign up rather than just lurk at "proyecto mierda".

[LittleLebowski]

I wasn't going to say anything more, but since you asked...

For one, that's outside of the competition sub forum so I'd say feel free to Timmy your heart out.

The institutional bias is totally "kittening" there. You have guys talking about how in competition "rules 2 and 3 are optional", about how they missed the USPSA "anything goes memo", and the only reason its not more prevalent is no competitors are interrupting the face shooting discussion. One of the two who did venture there was banned and told "he wasn't from around here". In fact, he was reminded of that when you followed him to another forum to belittle him for your perception of his observance of his beliefs.

What happen if I started a new thread in gun handling, with the picture of Todd on the trigger?

Discuss: Safety

What are the chances the guy on the timer stopped him and said, hey, that's unsafe?

What are the chances that over the berm is a safe direction?

What are the chances a heavy trigger negates the need for the 4 rules?

How would that be received? As a side note, if you are in the club you can use the acronym TPOG but apparently if you shoot games more than occasionally it is forbidden.

The bias is there. It's why a lot of good competitors don't bother posting here, which is unfortunate. It doesn't have to be that way, and an unfettered or lightly moderated discussion could benefit a lot of people. AFAIK, all disciplinary action and thread editing has occurred to gamers. I know, I'm nothing more than a rabble rousing gamer.

I've tried to talk about the topic, I've had PMs with staff about this and I dont think its an insurmountable obstacle. I started on this forum and think it doesn't have to pit the parties against each other. I carry AIWB in a shaggy when I travel- I'm not so different from the core membership here, but if you want to tell a competitor he is wrong for deciding to shoot the cardboard during the walkthrough and not on the fly... it kind of seems like you are talking down to them. I don't see why face shooting needs to be discussed at all in a competition thread. If somebody feels like they need to justify why they are in C class... I guess. Its kinda like when a guy has a 1.5s draw and feels like hr has to make fun of "race guns". Feel free. Consent and participation are voluntary, and the competition guys will stay in their lanes- its up to the staff to decide if they want a robust competition lane on this site or not.

Maybe I am too sensitive and not bearded enough for this site... I guess I'll go sign up rather than just lurk at "proyecto mierda".

Mike, I and the rest of the Staff here have no issue with competition. Discuss anything and anyone here that you want insofar as you follow the COC. With regards to "belittling" some poor innocent who did not at all come here simply to get his "banned at PF for fighting the nazi mods there" pin, I did my damnedest (via a polite PM this weekend) to ask him to tone it down here and simply stay on the topic that Todd started instead on the topic of....Todd. I absolutely don't think much of grown men acting the way he did and said as much elsewhere but then....he broke contact, not that I care. If you want to discuss this further in depth with me, send me a PM; I'll be honest and frank with you; I honestly would rather this discussion stay on topic and I will make sure it does.

With regards to the rest of your complaints; I agree, the two "sides" shouldn't be pitted against one another. However....do you want the discussion to be free flowing or are you asking for the mods to crack down on Timmys in gamer discussions and vice versa? That won't happen. Honestly, just discuss things. Don't take comments about competitors seriously. It's the internet. We're going to continue to leave this forum as lightly moderated as possible but we're not fans of personal attacks. You do see the disconnect between you complaining about people making fun of race guns and then in another paragraph, mention "an unfettered or lightly moderated discussion?"

So, here's your "unfettered or lightly moderated discussion." Please feel free to discuss the topic. Follow the COC, avoid personal attacks. If you feel like someone is personally attacking you or in any other way breaking our rules, simply hit that "Report Post" button. It's very simple; no personal attacks or trolling and the mods here will let you discuss things to your heart's content. By all means, if you PM a moderator about a problem here and don't get a response, PM all of them or hit that Report Post button.

[JV_]

I started on this forum and think it doesn't have to pit the parties against each other. Do you think that your use of the (derogatory) nickname, Timmy, helps or hurts the divide between the two sides?

[Chuck Haggard]

I'm a huge proponent of people who carry guns for a living getting into competition. Some of our best gunfighters have felt the same, Jim Cirillo being an early an prominent example.

[TGS]

Mike,

FWIW, I'm not a gamer and have a P-F.com disciplinary history that makes Al Capone look like a saint.

It made for some quite fun jokes in AFHF several years back with Todd, actually. ��

[Mr_White]

Do you think that your use of the (derogatory) nickname, Timmy, helps or hurts the divide between the two sides?

I don't know how other people feel about it, but I enjoy both the terms timmie and gamer. They can be used in a goodhearted way. I am proudly an original Tim. Timmay!

[LittleLebowski]

Maybe I am too sensitive and not bearded enough for this site...

One of our most popular threads :D

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?552-Straight-amp-safety-razor-shaving

[mikeg]

With regards to the rest of your complaints; I agree, the two "sides" shouldn't be pitted against one another. However....do you want the discussion to be free flowing or are you asking for the mods to crack down on Timmys in gamer discussions and vice versa? That won't happen. Honestly, just discuss things. Don't take comments about competitors seriously. It's the internet. We're going to continue to leave this forum as lightly moderated as possible but we're not fans of personal attacks. You do see the disconnect between you complaining about people making fun of race guns and then in another paragraph, mention "an unfettered or lightly moderated discussion?"


I'm going to have to say that what you said here is definitely not the way an outsider like myself (who reads this forum quite often) see it.

We are now posting a 24+ page thread in the "competition" forum where people are arguing back and forth the face shooting vs. competition shooting arguments that ALWAYS come up. In this thread... there is absolutely no moderation of anything. If at topic of tactical/defense/etc. was bombarded with this much competition talk it would quickly be closed/modded/people warned.

We don't have to call it a pro-defensive shooting bias, but I would definitely say that the leash is MUCH longer for one group of shooters than it is for the others when it comes to attacking each others sport/hobby/shooting type.

[LittleLebowski]

I'm going to have to say that what you said here is definitely not the way an outsider like myself (who reads this forum quite often) see it.

We are now posting a 24+ page thread in the "competition" forum where people are arguing back and forth the face shooting vs. competition shooting arguments that ALWAYS come up. In this thread... there is absolutely no moderation of anything. If at topic of tactical/defense/etc. was bombarded with this much competition talk it would quickly be closed/modded/people warned.

We don't have to call it a pro-defensive shooting bias, but I would definitely say that they leash is MUCH longer for one group of shooters than it is for the others when it comes to attacking each others sport/hobby/shooting type.

Hey man, I temporarily moved this to the Romper Room. Folks complained, I moved it back. You said earlier you wanted "lightly moderated/unfettered discussion," remember? Now if you feel there's personal attacks or something that truly needs to be moderated, report the post. Another disconnect, you are now complaining about a lack of moderation but said you'll go join Doodie Project (which is fine, have fun, don't care). If you want to discuss the topic at hand, do so. However, what you just mentioned (" If at topic of tactical/defense/etc. was bombarded with this much competition talk it would quickly be closed/modded/people warned.") won't happen so long as you follow the COC. If you want to storm off, that's fine. If you want to stay and see if I mean what I say, better yet. I suppose I should count this thread a success since no one is happy :)

[cclaxton]

I want to ask an honest question of pistol competitors here, and please don't take offense but interested in seeing your answers. This is a discussion.

Are there competition-centric members here who are concerned at all that training to be fast may compromise their ability to work/defend responsibly on the street? (Whether we are considering "early finger" habits or muzzle habits, or any of the things done for competition to improve your speed?)

My own view is that competition range safety is really good, in spite of the recent brass rat being caught down range after the timer beeped. Maybe I missed it, but I haven't really seen an answer to this question.

Cody

[perlslacker]

So I'm still unclear on what was a personal attack; was it the epithet "TPOG" or was it posting photographic evidence of both Todd and one of his instructors doing exactly what Todd was complaining about?

If it's the first one, then whatever. If it's the second one I can see how it's germane to the discussion.

[LittleLebowski]

So I'm still unclear on what was a personal attack; was it the epithet "TPOG" or was it posting photographic evidence of both Todd and one of his instructors doing exactly what Todd was complaining about?

If it's the first one, then whatever. If it's the second one I can see how it's germane to the discussion.

Whoops, never mind. Anyway, it was explicitly stated to talk about the topic, not the person starting it. If you're requesting a complete history of a user's COC violations....well, that's not going to happen.

[taadski]

Any of the competitors here (who complained about the perceived PF bias against theirs and my sport) think that this thread (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?15586-trigger-finger-safety/page8) shows some sort of PF institutional bias against competitive shooting or can we agree that it's a discussion with differing opinions?

I'll just say I appreciate you pulling this one back from underneath the carpet. :p

And since I suspect Cody was in part responsible, thanks to you too. ;)



I don't know how other people feel about it, but I enjoy both the terms timmie and gamer. They can be used in a goodhearted way. I am proudly an original Tim. Timmay!

Same, same. I've never taken either personally, despite wearing both hats.

[LittleLebowski]

I'll just say I appreciate you pulling this one back from underneath the carpet. :p


Seriously, it was never under the carpet. It was temporarily moved to the highest traffic sub-forum we have. No conspiracy :D

[perlslacker]

Whoops, never mind.

Dang it, I had a sarcastic reply about hacking into the forums db to alter my reg date just to throw you off the trail.


Anyway, it was explicitly stated to talk about the topic, not the person starting it. If you're requesting a complete history of a user's COC violations....well, that's not going to happen.

Whether or not the intent of the original post was to start a discussion about safety in USPSA in general, the thread certainly took that turn. Todd is a prominent defensive shooting instructor, so I think that pointing out that similar safety errors occur in ALL kinds of shoot-fast training added to the discussion.

[LittleLebowski]

Whether or not the intent of the original post was to start a discussion about safety in USPSA in general, the thread certainly took that turn. Todd is a prominent defensive shooting instructor, so I think that pointing out that similar safety errors occur in ALL kinds of shoot-fast training added to the discussion.

This is me agreeing with your above statement except that's not why people got banned. Now if we could leave the topic of why ____ got banned, that would be great :D

[orionz06]

Seems like it's OK for the gamers to be shit on because kilt in da streetz. The appearance of a bias occurs because the gamers aren't jumping into other threads telling people how they're gonna lose a match doing something.


There's a tremendous amount of overlap when it comes to shooting pistols. I think it's safe to say that this forum isn't the Become-a-Grandmaster.com so there is a mild lean. As best as I can tell most of the staff has trained with or wishes they've trained with the best of the best competition shooters out there.

Perhaps the same approach that has kept the LE forum in check should be applied to the competition section. As best as I can tell the LE forum is working just fine now.

[perlslacker]

This is me agreeing with your above statement except that's not why people got banned. Now if we could leave the topic of why ____ got banned, that would be great :D

Eh, if I wanted to know why they got b& I would read through this 25 page train wreck but I'm at work so.

[LittleLebowski]

As best as I can tell most of the staff has trained with or wishes they've trained with the best of the best competition shooters out there.


I missed my Vogel class because parenting. I'd take a local Stoeger class in a heartbeat.

[Kyle Reese]

Seems like it's OK for the gamers to be shit on because kilt in da streetz. The appearance of a bias occurs because the gamers aren't jumping into other threads telling people how they're gonna lose a match doing something.


There's a tremendous amount of overlap when it comes to shooting pistols. I think it's safe to say that this forum isn't the Become-a-Grandmaster.com so there is a mild lean. As best as I can tell most of the staff has trained with or wishes they've trained with the best of the best competition shooters out there.

Perhaps the same approach that has kept the LE forum in check should be applied to the competition section. As best as I can tell the LE forum is working just fine now.

I've attended a Bob Vogel class and really look forward to training with Frank Proctor & Manny Bragg in the future. Competitors have my utmost respect, given the level of work, personal sacrifice and requisite skill needed to be the best.

I don't think there needs to be a contentious relationship between those advocating competition shooting vs. defensive oriented pistolcraft. I think that both sides can learn from one another, as many of the fundamental skills inherent in handgun shooting cross-pollinate.

[LittleLebowski]

I shot that stage!....It was incredibly fun...and a little scary. I loved it. I heard some people ran around and pulled the seesaw down rather than walking it...not nearly as much fun IMHO. This happens at IDPA sanctioned matches as well, for instance at the last Carolina Cup we had to do a weak hand reload. Dark matches always make me look live a novice and push me out of my comfort zone.
Cody

Video of that stage. Dude's gun aint' running for shit.


https://youtu.be/LhwfOSXqQ30?t=170

[mikeg]

I want to ask an honest question of pistol competitors here, and please don't take offense but interested in seeing your answers. This is a discussion.

Are there competition-centric members here who are concerned at all that training to be fast may compromise their ability to work/defend responsibly on the street? (Whether we are considering "early finger" habits or muzzle habits, or any of the things done for competition to improve your speed?

Not at all...

I've never shot at people, but I have shot a decent amount of game... I've noticed that until you can overcome the metal chaos/adrenaline dump of hunting you almost always resort back to your previous experiences with said firearm. More practice, regardless of how you do it, is better than none.

I'd imagine self defense shooting would require fast shooting kinda like gun games... since that's what we do all the time, it should in theory benefit kinda like how ANY type of shotgun clays shooting will help to some extent with hunting birds.

Unless you have the time to setup all kind of self defense scenarios, or the money to continue going to training courses, your cheap/easiest way to shoot a gun at humanoid targets, quickly, under the pressure of a time clock and an audience, is competition shooting.

[longball]

I started my shooting career as a "Timmy" but recently I've been exploring the "gamer" world for another excuse to shoot and in order to learn more about becoming proficient with my sidearm. I see a use and a need for both camps of thought and believe the blending of their mindset/skills is what is best for me.
That being said, against my better judgement, again, I would like to pose another question for the sake of discussion. In the picture posted of Mr. Green (don't know him, never met him), is his finger on the trigger too soon? I'm not talking about the guy dressed like him, or the picture of him with the reversed mag catch but the picture that is actually him. I'm not out to flame him or make a "see he does it too, he's no better than a gamer statement". That is NOT my intention as I have no bone to pick with either side. Since we've discussed the competition picture I'm just curious what the consensus here is, based on what we can gather from the photo.


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