.22 Training Pistols

[seabiscuit]

Ammo is expensive. Does anyone have any good suggestions?

I like the Ruger 22/45, but I don't shoot a 1911, and it's so easy to shoot I'm not sure it'd be good practice. Although it's reliable and inexpensive - $260 at Bud's Gun Shop.

The S&W 617 would let me practice DA/SA triggers, but it's $670, more than I spent on my Glock.

Any other suggestions? I might just do a lot more dry fire.

[TCinVA]

Dryfire is good.

Rimfire training can teach some things, primarily helping you get practice on trigger control and precision with the sights. It's generally most useful if you can replicate the trigger and sights on your carry/duty gun...so if you have a Glock, the Advantage Arms kit would be my suggestion.

While guns like the Ruger MK-II family are good little rimfires, they really aren't making you much of a better shooter with the nice sights and cheater trigger.

[Slavex]

Get a conversion kit for your Glock

[Al T.]

Get a conversion kit

Ditto. :)

[agent-smith]

The S&W 617 would let me practice DA/SA triggers, but it's $670, more than I spent on my Block.

I have a 4" 617 and I absolutely love it.

You get what you pay for.

[seabiscuit]

I have a 4" 617 and I absolutely love it.

But is it a good training pistol?

Also, looks like the AA conversion kits have some reliability issues. Any issues with those who use them here?

[TCinVA]

"Reliability" is a completely different term when you're referring to rimfire semi-autos. It's not the same thing as reliability with a 9mm Glock, and never shall be.

That being said, of the conversion kits out there the AA kit for the Glock seems to have the best reputation around in terms of function as long as you feed it the recommended ammo. With Remington's Golden Bullet ammo it runs very well. You may still experience an occasional malfunction (maybe a couple in an extended range session) but that's the nature of bulk rimfire ammo. A lot of people don't read the directions and use other types of ammo and experience problems which they then blame on the kit. Follow the instructions and you're likely to get decent service out of the kit.

My sample is very accurate to boot...every bit as accurate as my Ruger MK-II.

[agent-smith]

But is it a good training pistol?
For me, absolutely.

It works great for DA/SA trigger pull.

Plus, it is one of the most "fun" handguns I've ever owned/shot.

Tom Jones shot it and seemed pretty impressed as well.

[ExMachina]

A Ruger 22/45 has really helped me improve my shooting overall. I got the gun because I do shoot 1911s quite a bit, but that reasoning proved to be unfounded. The similarities between a 1911 and the 22/45 begin and end at the grip angle. Nothing else is the same and the Ruger in no way improved my handling of the 1911, specifically.

What a good 22 will do is allow you to set some standards for assessing your own shooting and to diagnose problems. With proper ammo, there not much excuse for high variances in your POI with a 22. A 22 makes it cheap and easy to isolate problems you may be having with your bigger guns and to get a feel for what the effects of a poor trigger stroke (for example) can look like in the context of a drill.

Additionally, the 22 is a gun that I come back to throughout the course of a shooting session to gauge mental and physical fatigue--if the dime-size groups I get at the beginning of a session can't be reproduced after an couple of hours of active shooting, then I consider that it might be time to simply call it a day.

[JDM]

The M&P .22 is ready for shipping. . .

[jslaker]

The M&P .22 is ready for shipping. . .

Do you know if I'm correct in my understanding that it requires a new frame and is not going to be available as a simple conversion kit?

[JDM]

Do you know if I'm correct in my understanding that it requires a new frame and is not going to be available as a simple conversion kit?

Correct. Different gun entirely.

http://tapatalk.com/mu/a6cd0b73-5eed-baf1.jpg

(S&W photo)

[David Armstrong]

.22s give me the opportunity for a lot more trigger time than I might get otherwise. Back when companies were giving me plenty of ammo I might shoot 1K or 2K rounds of centerfire a week. That gets sort of expensive when it starts coming out of my pocket. Is the .22 a perfect alternative to big-bores? No. But it sure beats the heck out of not shooting at all!:)

[Mitchell, Esq.]

Using an AA Kit I barely clean on a Glock 26 today I experienced no malfs with CCI Mini-Mags.

Keep it wet, with CCI Mini-Mag and it's good to go.

When I used anything else, it barfed. Now...this can be a good thing as it reinforced emergency action drills...but seriously, the AA kits are reliable when fed good ammo.

Are they perfectly accurate, POA/POI? No...but I shoot 3x5 cards, and if I'm tagging the cards from the holster & low ready at 20 feet, it's good enough for Sunday practice on the cheap.

I give myself a few rounds of 9mm at further distance to get back into the swing of things, and it works out fine.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

Correct. Different gun entirely.

http://tapatalk.com/mu/a6cd0b73-5eed-baf1.jpg

(S&W photo)

I'm pretty much locked into Glock right now given I've got holsters, mags and .22lr kits for the weapons.

Other people I know are getting into shooting, and with the purchase of an AA upper, they are effectively locked into Glocks until their financial situation gets a lot better. Why look for something else when you have a gun you can practice with almost for free using the same sights, trigger, and holsters?

S&W are dumbshits for not doing .22lr uppers.
Quite frankly, so it Glock for not doing it in house, as well as H&K for the same.

SIG & Kimber, who did the .22lr kits in house, are smart to have done so.

[seabiscuit]

I'm pretty much convinced that the AA kit is the way to go. Thanks for all the advice!

[peterb]

While guns like the Ruger MK-II family are good little rimfires, they really aren't making you much of a better shooter with the nice sights and cheater trigger.

Somewhere, bullseye shooters are gathering torches and pitchforks......

The US Olympic shooting team might also think your definition of "better shooter" is a bit narrow. :)

[jslaker]

S&W are dumbshits for not doing .22lr uppers.
Quite frankly, so it Glock for not doing it in house, as well as H&K for the same.

SIG & Kimber, who did the .22lr kits in house, are smart to have done so.

This is kind of how I feel.

If the M&P22 was an upper conversion, I'd buy one no questions asked. I'm leaning toward "no" for a .22 replica, however.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

After I posted that, I went for a walk last night.

While thinking about lots of things...I realized it was pointless to blame gun companies for not taking the high volume people into account more than they do.

Most high volume shooters are either LE or Military, and their ammo is paid for.
Competition people roll their own, so cost is less of a factor.
Training junkies (most of us) usually buy what they need, price is what the prices is.

Most everyone else - 500 rounds a year is a heavy year of shooting for them.

It's worth it for some people to make the kits, because some people will buy them. But for companies to do it in house?

It would be nice, but eh...

I really would like to know SIG's thougt process for introducing the .22lr uppers into their product line. What did they see as a reason for doing it?

[fuse]

Like everything SIG, I bet it just came down to it being profitable for them. And they probably have the production capacity to handle it.

It would be profitable for glock as well, but I get the feeling they are just barely keeping up.

[MDS]

I really would like to know SIG's thougt process for introducing the .22lr uppers into their product line. What did they see as a reason for doing it?

The Profit lives downmarket. Just a guess.

To the OP: I blame my 617 for most of my trigger-pull improvement over the last year. It doesn't feel like my carry trigger, and if I could only shoot and dry-fire with one gun, it would be my carry gun. But doing a lot of intensely-focused dry-fire with the 617 taught my finger-muscles a lot about "trigger mechanics," as TLG once phrased it. These days, I don't dry-fire with it that much, just once in a while to make sure I haven't slipped. I mostly shoot it live now, trying to get the same level of accuracy with DA as with SA. Again, it's not so much that DA/SA is what I shoot "for real" - it's that getting good with DA and SA builds a strong base for any kind of trigger manipulation.

Also, it may be that working with a 617 is mostly valuable for folks at my skill level. (Hint: my skill level is where The Profit lives... ;))

[Super J]

Get a conversion kit for your Glock

Agreed. I have a advantage arms kit for my Glock and have no regrets. No, it does not have the same recoil, but I can practice my presentation drills and increase my range time for a fraction of the cost

[agent-smith]

So much so that I bought one just like it. :cool:

AWESOME!!!

If anyone from S&W is reading this, I've sold like 6 of those 617 revolvers just from letting people shoot mine...just think what I could do if you give me an M&P-22 pistol...

[TCinVA]

Somewhere, bullseye shooters are gathering torches and pitchforks......

The US Olympic shooting team might also think your definition of "better shooter" is a bit narrow. :)

Perhaps...but I'm not interested in Olympic level bullseye competition. If someone wants to learn to use a service pistol like a Glock 17 well, a Ruger MK-II isn't going to contribute much to that because the Ruger is much easier to shoot. If someone is using a handgun with a trigger pull measured in ounces and a grip custom fitted to their hand then different rules may apply.

As for the accuracy bit, it may be that someone can take my Ruger MK-II and demonstrate it offers superior mechanical accuracy to my AA kit, but I'm not that someone. I have yet to find a target I can hit with the MK-II that I can't hit with the AA kit. As an example, I was goofing around at the range one day and running low on targets and ammo I decided for funsies to shoot at the "o" in the word "Dot" on Todd's Dot Torture target with the AA kit from 5 yards out. The result?

http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h353/TCinVA/Dotshot.jpg

I've managed to get some pretty tiny offhand groups at 25 yards with it, too. I'm hoping to do a little squirrel hunting with it this fall.

[MDS]

AWESOME!!!

If anyone from S&W is reading this, I've sold like 6 of those 617 revolvers just from letting people shoot mine...just think what I could do if you give me an M&P-22 pistol...

Nice, I want some credits, too. I've sold 2 617's, though mostly to recreational "shoot for fun" types who love the Dirty Harry look more than the ability to train their trigger control. The scenario is a "range day" with a bunch of my brother's friends. My brother is unabashedly a "turn money into noise" kind of shooter, and at first all his friends want to shoot with him instead of me - because I've got only 2 kinds of guns and he's got like 20. By chance or whatever, I get one or two of his friends over to my lane, show them some simple fundamentals, and they're shooting groups they never thought possible. (Like, all shots in an 5" circle at 3 yards, when 5 minutes before they couldn't keep all their shots on paper...) They tell some of the other guys that are still blasting away with my brother, and next thing you know I'm putting on a little clinic on shooting groups with my revolver. Long story short, after a long day of shooting the snot out of all the guns in my brother's and my joint arsenal, 9 out of 10 guys love my 6" 617 more than anything else - more than the cool "M16" (actually a crappy bushy,) more than the Glock with the 30-round "clip," more than the sweet futuristic silenced P22 straight out of a James Bond movie. The 617 is a damn fun gun to shoot, regardless of how much it can teach you about trigger control.

[agent-smith]

Deleting stupid joke.

[David Armstrong]

If someone wants to learn to use a service pistol like a Glock 17 well, a Ruger MK-II isn't going to contribute much to that because the Ruger is much easier to shoot.
I've just got to disagree with that. Yes, if all you do is shoot the Ruger it might contribute little to the Glock, but if one shoots the Ruger in conjunction with shooting the Glock it can contribute quite a bit. It is X more sight pictures, it is X more draws, it is X more presentations, it is X more follow-throughs, and so on.