Looking for some help...13 year old shooting support hand only

[D.O.A.F.S.]

Long story short, my 13 year old son is looking to start shooting IDPA this year. He has been shooting local steel matches with me for about a year and a half (videos if anyone is interested on my you tube channel "odebediah") and does fairly well for his age and experience. He has been shooting a Browning buckmark till this point, but last year in the fall I bought him a M&P Pro in 9mm to practice with to transition from his buckmark. He hasn't shot any matches with it yet but in practice he shoots the M&P very well free style and strong hand only with zero issues but struggles with his support hand. He gets accurate hits at 7-10 yards but is unable to get reliable function..."stove pipes". Now I realize the issue, but everything I've tried has not helped. I'm an average shooter at best and certainly no instructor but have been trying to do my best as "dad". Looking for help from someone that has worked with smaller stature folks with this same issue.

[Ptrlcop]

Push-ups and pull ups. Also just hanging from the pull-up bar can help with grip strength.

There are probably some technical improvements to be made to but getting stronger will help him most and translate to other activities.

Any chance you could shoot a vid of him shooting the 9?

[D.O.A.F.S.]

Push-ups and pull ups. Also just hanging from the pull-up bar can help with grip strength.

There are probably some technical improvements to be made to but getting stronger will help him most and translate to other activities.

Any chance you could shoot a vid of him shooting the 9?

I hadn't thought about a video, I can definitely do that but won't be able too till next weekend. A good suggestion on the exercises too, I don't know if you watched any of the steel shoot videos but he is average height for his age and very thin. The video idea is great, it will be easy to see the problem, I see it, I just don't know how to fix it. He gets behind the gun very well strong hand only but with his support hand his wrist gets into a weird angle trying to get the pistol under his dominate eye (right handed and right eye dominate).

[Rich@CCC]

another good exercise (I don't know if there is "name" for it) is to tie a 3-4' cord to a broom stick diameter dowel and a weight then roll and unroll the cord, lifting and lowering the weight by twisting the hands forward and backward in alternation.

Wow, that's a crappy description but I don't know how else to state it.

[nycnoob]

When I took Rogers Shooting schools basic class they sent everyone a Black Gripmaster 3 months before.
We were told to work on grip strength before the class.

http://www.prohands.net/products/gripmaster.php

I bought a bunch more of them for my own use (the ProHands is not worth the extra money and the Via is new and I have not tried it).
I try and hold it like a gun, depressing the bottom three buttons and have them stay depressed while I rapidly depress the top button
simulating shooting a gun and not milking the grip.

I am sure there are tons of other exercises you could do with them.


http://www.prohands.net/exercise/

[23JAZ]

another good exercise (I don't know if there is "name" for it) is to tie a 3-4' cord to a broom stick diameter dowel and a weight then roll and unroll the cord, lifting and lowering the weight by twisting the hands forward and backward in alternation.

Wow, that's a crappy description but I don't know how else to state it.
I know what you're talking about I do those. They are great for building hand and forearm strength. I don't know what it's called though.

[HopetonBrown]

I like these brothers and do a lot if their work outs at home. https://youtu.be/OYIemWj0MZU

[45dotACP]

Pushups and pullups are worth all the "grippy strength" exercisers in the world. People get severe forearms injuries/tennis elbow if they overdo the forearms...which is very easy to do. I did it myself. I found that if I can get to the point of being able to do 20 consecutive pullups and 100 consecutive pushups, the stabilizing muscles of my wrist are enough to give me good recoil control. You need to strengthen every muscle "up the chain" as my applied musculoskeletal anatomy prof told me. If the agonist is stronger than the antagonist, you'll have one muscle group overpowering the other. This leads to the bearing surfaces and tendons being misaligned and more likely to be injured. Every motion must be balanced and the agonists/antagonists must be equal. Part of the reason I always suggest consulting a certified athletic trainer or physical therapist if you want to develop a workout routine.

Of course, given time, resources and the dedication to get to the gym regularly, lat pulldowns, incline/decline bench press, supinating biceps curls (to strengthen the forearms as well as the biceps) and triceps extensions are useful. Being stronger is never something they will regret and later in life, he may thank you for getting him into the habit of getting to the gym first thing in the morning.

Okay, rant over. Most importantly, have fun together!

[BN]

Have you tried a reduced power recoil spring? I'm not sure what power people are running in the M&P. Glocks have (I think) a 17# stock and people are running a 15# or even 13# recoil springs. Also, what power of ammo are you using? Some of the white box ammo is reduced power which will lead to function problems.

[Artemas]

Get him a part time job milking cows;)

As for a better smelling option, I have had good luck using the prohands that nycnoob mentioned. Be sure to start with a lighter weight one. Many light reps is better than doing a few heavy ones.

[Chuck Haggard]

Sounds like he is compromising his stance when going weak hand only, from your description.

In the past I have had to teach smaller statured coppers how to overcome such issues, typically by a more aggressive stance with the shoulder rolled forward as though they have thrown a punch. Rolling the gun slighlty (not gangster gripping the gun, just to about the 11 or 1 o'clock position) can often help.

[HopetonBrown]

Pushups and pullups are worth all the "grippy strength" exercisers in the world. People get severe forearms injuries/tennis elbow if they overdo the forearms...which is very easy to do. I did it myself. I found that if I can get to the point of being able to do 20 consecutive pullups and 100 consecutive pushups, the stabilizing muscles of my wrist are enough to give me good recoil control.

I wonder how many USPSA GM's can do 10 push ups.

[D.O.A.F.S.]

I work nights and just got home, so first I would like to Thank everyone so far for their advice and suggestions.

Next I will answer the questions around the gun and ammo. I purchased the m&p pro new back in the fall, and installed an Apex sear and striker block along with stippling of the frame. Out of the box it did exhibit extraction issues, mainly just weak where the brass would land at my right foot and sometimes back in my face, with my son tons of stove pipes. I put around 200 rounds through it with no change. Taking the advice of Grant from G&R Tactical I installed the green s&w recoil spring, and that cured it, it now ejects the brass 5-6 feet. It has ran flawless through the 6000 rounds that have been put through it since, in fact I shot it in last Saturdays steel shoot. My son has probably put a 1000 of the 6000 rounds through it practicing with zero issues as well except for his support hand shooting. I reload, so my ammo combination is 124 grain bayou bullets with 3.8 grains of win 231 and an OAL of 1.030. With the success he has shooting it other then with his support hand I really don't think its a gun or ammo issue but I'm certainly open to suggestions.

I won't be able to get my son to the range till Friday, and will try Mr. Haggard's recommendation on modifying his stance. I will record him shooting to post back here, hopefully with success, if not for folks to analyze for other suggestions.

Thanks again!

[Chuck Haggard]

If you are comfortable doing so, take a pic or video of his weak side only stance and post it.

[ford.304]

http://www.reddit.com/r/GripTraining/wiki/faq

http://www.davidhorne-gripmaster.com/basics.html

I added these to my workout routine and have seen big improvement.

[45dotACP]

I wonder how many USPSA GM's can do 10 push ups.
Lol...I wonder how many of the gun owning crowd period can do 5 pullups....

Strength isn't a huge part of shooting, but proper conditioning is a huge part of avoiding injury.

Again though, a good athletic trainer or PT can develop the right exercise program :)

[D.O.A.F.S.]

If you are comfortable doing so, take a pic or video of his weak side only stance and post it.

I can and definitely will tomorrow after he gets home from school, I have to leave for work shortly and running behind schedule.

[Chuck Haggard]

I get it, I just threw that out there since it would allow those of us with coaching experience to make a more informed comment, and be able to help out more effectively.

[D.O.A.F.S.]

Sorry for the poor picture quality, it's raining outside and the lighting was not so good inside. This weekend I will get some video of him actually shooting support hand. Thanks in advance!

http://i.imgur.com/qzj1AFY.jpg?2http://i.imgur.com/3wF1fvI.jpg?2http://i.imgur.com/Aw6czxo.jpg?2http://i.imgur.com/FPGdAsf.jpg?2

[Al T.]

I "think" that making his stance a bit more aggressive may help. I've been working one handed, left handed for a while as my nephew has only one hand and it's cross dominant with his eye. One of the things that Mas Ayoob's MAG40 showed me was the body index of a single hand's orientation to the torso. I found that if the stance was aggressive enough to easily place the weak hand (sans firearm) on the leading knee cap, my shot group tightened right up. Relax the stance and the shot group opened up.

Food for thought. :)

[D.O.A.F.S.]

I "think" that making his stance a bit more aggressive may help. I've been working one handed, left handed for a while as my nephew has only one hand and it's cross dominant with his eye. One of the things that Mas Ayoob's MAG40 showed me was the body index of a single hand's orientation to the torso. I found that if the stance was aggressive enough to easily place the weak hand (sans firearm) on the leading knee cap, my shot group tightened right up. Relax the stance and the shot group opened up.

Food for thought. :)

I'm sorry but I don't understand...

[D.O.A.F.S.]

I suspect he means he should crouch and/or lean forward more.

Ok, got it now. What was throwing me was " stance was aggressive enough to easily place the weak hand (sans firearm) on the leading knee cap" I could not visualize it other then being in a kneeling type position. Thanks for the advice and we will try it Friday when we practice.

[SLG]

Unlock his left arm and cant the gun a little more to the right. Looks like he's hyper extended, but maybe it's the picture.

[GJM]

Unlock his left arm and cant the gun a little more to the right. Looks like he's hyper extended, but maybe it's the picture.

Looks extremely hyperextended. Besides current issue, would worry this extension will lead to physical elbow problems in the future.

[D.O.A.F.S.]

Well I unfortunately didn't get any video to post. Friday it rained, spent Saturday at my sisters for Easter, and today went to my in laws for Easter dinner. We did manage to get to a local range to practice about and an hour before going to my in laws but unfortunately with other folks there, I was unable to set up a camera. I don't go there often because they allow no movement what so ever or drawing from a holster..(you'll shoot your eye out! right!) but they're only five minutes from my house. I normally practice at my fathers property(50 acres mostly wooded) but that's about a half hour drive, so I didn't have time to get there today. We did try a couple things today that were suggested and made some progress, but still had issues. One thing I did think of while eating Easter dinner was having him totally bladed to the target similar too a bulls eye shooters stance if that makes sense. It would allow him to keep his arm and wrist straight as well as to get the gun under his dominant eye, thoughts?

[23JAZ]

Unlock his left arm and cant the gun a little more to the right. Looks like he's hyper extended, but maybe it's the picture.

His elbow looks way hyper-extended. I caught myself doing that in the past to help stabilize my weak side hand. It took some strength training but I got over it.