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60167
03-28-2015, 12:38 PM
Hello

I'm new here, although I've been lurking for quite some time. I'm a three-year city cop and I'm totally outclassed by the other members here. I can only hope to one day contribute to the level of discourse that this forum provides.

I've been carrying a back up gun for the last two years. We're issued M&P .40's and I carry a Shield .40 either on my ankle or on my vest. I'm at a bit of a quandary as to what the optimum location is.

I bang the gun into the door frame of my patrol car if it's on my ankle. My pant leg also rides up, and reveals the gun most times I get out of the car. My left knee starts to feel sore after several weeks of carrying on my ankle.

However I have quick access to my gun, especially when seated. It's also easy to re-holster from that location.


I have a difficult time accessing my gun quickly if it's in a vest holster (cheapo Uncle Mikes with a thumb break). I also have to remove my gun every time I take an arrestee into the jail. Re-holstering is a problem because I have to fight the elastic vest strap that goes over the holster.

However the gun stays concealed, and it is much more comfortable to carry this way for extended periods.


My questions are:

Where do you carry? What holster do you use? I noticed another member mentioned the use of AIWB under the duty belt. Are there options I am not considering?

Policy dictates the gun must be concealed and I must have retention (thumb break).


Thanks for your help.

60167

jnc36rcpd
03-28-2015, 05:38 PM
I've pretty much resigned myself to vest carry. I use the DeSantis version of the Uncle Mike's vest holster, but so not use the strap. Of course, that option goes out the window if we go to polo shirts or I transition to an outer vest carrier. I have tried ankle carry in a DeSantis Apache rig, but have similar issues to yours. The pain in the knee would make ankle carry a definite no-go. I have just over three decades more time on the street than you and, trust me on this, you definitely don't want to damage your knees more than you have to.

Since you need a thumb-break, I assume pocket carry is out. You might look at the BUG Pocket (www.bugpocket.com) or the 10-24 holster (www.10-24products.com). While both products strain the definition of thumb-break, I would think they are within policy. Of course, neither product will work with an exterior carrier or polo shirt and you probably won't be able to use a hard trauma plate. While I've never seen one in the wild, the Arrestling gun carrier (www.arrestling.com.) might be an option. Lastly, while out of production, you might be able to locate a Bianchi Tranzit holster which might be somewhat easier to present and reholster from than the vest holster.

Good luck and be safe.

ST911
03-29-2015, 08:16 AM
Regular ankle carrier here, LE/CCW context, Js and G26s. I also ankle carried a Shield 9mm when I gave that gun a try.

Not banging the gun getting in and out of the car is just picking and practicing the motions that work.

Wear a counterweight on the other leg. Extra mags, tourniquet, etc close to the same weight as your gun. When you walk, climb stairs, etc you are probably throwing or dragging the leg you're wearing the gun on and that can create issues. If you were going to be a dedicated ankle carrier, it would also be worth a consultation fee to have a physical therapist take a look at how you walk to see if there are better body mechanics you could be doing in general.

Vest carry didn't work for me. Slow, awkward, prone to gun fumbling. Watching other cops, it doesn't work as well as most think it does.

Have your pants hemmed 1-2" longer. You can tweak slope so it doesn't look as sloppy but the extra length is helpful.

I also favor 6" boots for duty use, a variety of reasons, including easier ankle carry.

Chuck Haggard
03-29-2015, 08:26 AM
Over the years I've carried guns as large as the Colt DS, S&W 6906, and Glock 26s and 27s via ankle carry. A good holster is key to comfort.

As Skintop noted, getting the pants altered slightly helps a great deal with concealment. That said, I can't do a BUG that heavy anymore and had to go back to my 642 for ankle carry after decades of wearing heavier BUGs.

Vest carry never worked for me due to my build, I'm already barrel chested, adding a gun makes me barrel chested with a goiter.


There were guys on my job using the vest mounted carriers like the BUG pocket and 10-24 holster, the guys doing so like that option.

David Armstrong
03-29-2015, 10:18 AM
To go somewhat with Chuck, I have never been comfortable carrying anything heavier than a Smith Airweight of some kind in an ankle rig. I did and do prefer pocket carry for the BUG, but given the policy that is probably out. I know one officer who had a velcro patch attached to his pocket for security, might check with the powers that be to see if that would meet the requirements for them.

60167
03-29-2015, 10:26 AM
Thanks for your help. I think I may look into the 10-24 to see how that works.

LSP552
03-29-2015, 11:07 AM
You can add me to the list that ended up being limited by weight on the ankle to an Airweight. I really tried to live with a Glock 26 when carrying a 34/17 but ultimately couldn't make it work.

I vest carried also, but ended up preferring the 642 on the ankle. I had a hard time drawing from a vest holster at speed, and it was even more difficult using just my off-side hand. In cooler weather, the Airweight went into the off-side jacket pocket. Depending on your uniform, the off-side pants pocket might be an option also for an Airweight.

I'm sorry, but I don't have any Shield specific experience or holster info.

41magfan
03-29-2015, 11:33 AM
During the 14 years I was in uniform, and I actually carried two contingency guns; one accessible to my weak-hand, and one that would likely pass a cursory search should I find myself in the most untenable of circumstances.

I flirted with ankle carry (an Airweight hammerless J-Frame of some iteration) on and off for years but it was never a mainstay for me personally. In defense of that carry method however, a LE acquaintance of mine is probably alive today due solely to his practice of ankle carry. He was the target of an unprovoked ambush when a guy stuck a SG barrel through the window of his patrol car and shot him in the face. As he went down in the seat on his strong side to avoid the muzzle for a possible follow-up shot, his ankle gun was the only gun accessible to him. He was able to draw and fire a 6-shot .38 revolver rather blindly in the direction of his attacker, striking him several times.

If I were starting over today, I'd carry a couple of Ruger LCP's in the same strategic locations.

L-2
03-29-2015, 01:10 PM
I've got similar experiences/responses:
-never noticed/felt an ankle problem due to an ankle-carried BUG
-~20 years on and now retired but still a sworn "Reserve"
-carry a J-frame S&W 642 or Glock 26, but have carried a Glock 27 and even a Glock 19 at times.
-I use the standard buttons on my shirt, no zippers, which would make it easier to rip open the shirt, should I be vest carrying
-the heavier Glock 27/26 didn't work as well for me on the ankle. There was just too much weight trying to constantly rotate around my ankle when moving. Vest carry became the norm for those guns
-I haven't noticed banging the ankle gun when exiting the vehicles but did hook the grip on the G27, jumping over a fence, which pulled my BUG right out of the holster dropping it to the ground (we don't have a thumbstrap requirement but can now see how it'd be useful).
-the pants riding above the ankle gun is something to correct or watch for exiting the vehicle each time. It's almost like ensuring your fly isn't open:)

Lost River
03-30-2015, 11:16 AM
When I worked uniform patrol, I settled on ankle carry. Most of my career it's been an airweight J Frame.

Vest carry simply does not work for me.

One thing to consider is if you are rolling with a suspect, fighting for your gun, vest carry is almost impossible to access, if the BG manages to get you in the mount position. Depending on body type and leg length, you more often than not can reach an ankle rig.

The other benefit is when seated in your patrol vehicle and an unknown person approaches you, it's pretty easy to slide the j frame snubby out of the ankle rig and discreetly cover the person, versus drawing from a strong side seated position, where it's pretty obvious that you are drawing a gun.

For uniformed work, if I could not carry an ankle rig, I'd use a weak side non descript type leather pouch with a flap to carry my BUG.

psalms144.1
03-30-2015, 11:27 AM
For years and years I carried a PM9 or 642 on my ankle in a Galco Ankle Glove because a G26 is "too heavy." Then my former Marine friend told me to take my M.A.N. pill and try it out for a while. It seemed bulky and heavy for about three days, and now I wear a G26 in that Ankle Glove from getting out of the shower in the morning until getting into bed at night, even under my PJs when I'm "lounging around."

That sounds a little flippant, but it's not meant to be. The G26 is measurably more "shootable" than the PM9 (with a 50% increase in capacity), and LIGHTYEARS more shootable than the 642. God forbid I need it (really need it) as a BUG because my primary (G19) is out of action, I can run it nearly as well as the larger pistol, AND feed it off the primary reloads (G17 mags with +2) on my belt.

Ankle carry is slow to access, and REQUIRES dedicated practice much more frequently and for longer duration than normal dry fire, but it's the only realistic option for me, given my body style, required mode of dress, and daily activity. Moreover, I find myself with disturbing regularity having to take mass transit (train and subway) in/around NYC in the summer, heading to places where I have to wear a suit. There was just no option for me to carry my primary in those situations (wearing a suit for a couple of hours riding the train and subway in Aug can reduce a nice jacket to a sopping, nasty mess). For my situation, the G26 on the ankle was a lot more "comforting" than a 5 shot 38 or a 7 shot PM9.

YMM, and almost certainly WILL, Vary.

Regards and stay safe!

Kevin

DocGKR
03-30-2015, 11:54 AM
What Kevin says above has a lot of merit.

A lightweight J-frame allowing weak hand access in a pocket, duty belt pouch, or ankle is a great way to go.

However, these days I'd also likely want to have a sub-compact pistol using my duty mags (G26, M&P9c, etc...).

If I ever wore a uniform again, I'd probably run a lightweight J-frame as noted above and a sub-compact pistol using my duty mags on my ankle or vest.

60167
03-30-2015, 05:28 PM
1. I guess I'm the only guy who hits his gun on the door frame. I didn't think I was the only guy.:)

2. Makes me think I should move to a lighter pistol. To me, there's no "platform compatibility" between a single stack Shield and a full size. All the minor differences in width and trigger shape make me manipulate the gun differently than the full size.

3. I have a Glock 42 that I carry while running/bicycling that I may try out. It's significantly lighter, and far more shootable than the .40 Shield.

Thanks for your input!

167

Chuck Haggard
03-30-2015, 05:30 PM
What BUG options are allowed by your agency policy?

psalms144.1
03-30-2015, 08:07 PM
1. I guess I'm the only guy who hits his gun on the door frame. I didn't think I was the only guy.:)

167Brother, I'm CONSTANTLY catching my G19 or my handcuffs on door frames. I swear, I wear a size 52 chest jacket, and just now squeezing back into 38 jeans, you'd think if my shoulders cleared the door, my darned hips would...

Beat Trash
03-31-2015, 08:46 AM
My agency has some rather liberal policies as to the gun that can be qualified with for a BUG. But Uniform officers are forbidden to use ankle carry. Ankle carry is restricted to plain cloths officers only.

The academy and FTU training staff like the B.U.G. holster that sews onto the front of the trauma plate. But then NO one on the training staff have EVER worked uniform patrol since we were Finally authorized to carry BUG's in 2011.

We are an M&P9 agency. I tried carrying a M&P9c as a BUG, but it was just too thick and large for my build. I carry a Shield 9mm as my BUG. I also use the cheap Uncle Mikes vest holster w/o the strap. I am right handed, but carry the gun under my right arm. I train to draw and shoot with my weak hand. The thought being if I need to deploy the BUG, it could be that I am forced to do so due to an injured dominant hand.

I don't know the number of officers who have qualified to carry a BUG, out of the approximate 975 officers we currently have. I do know that many who initially tried the B.U.G. holster that sews onto the front of the vest have gotten away from it. The general complaint being that it makes you look like you have a bob growing out of the front of your shirt. Some officers were also less than happy with the speed of draw.

I found that the speed of draw for the vest carry is much better than I would have thought. I pop the button over my sternum and slip my hand in like a Napoleon actor, and come out with a pistol in hand.

I have found that it works for me. If I had the option, I might consider adding a third gun to my ankle. If I were to do that, I'd most likely go with a J-frame revolver like a 642. But due to the self appointed experts within my agency's training staff, that is not an option.

Chuck Haggard
03-31-2015, 09:41 AM
The "no ankle holster" thing is just silly assed, but I supposed it's better than no BUGs at all, which some places have.

Chuck Whitlock
03-31-2015, 10:27 AM
I also use the cheap Uncle Mikes vest holster w/o the strap. I am right handed, but carry the gun under my right arm. I train to draw and shoot with my weak hand. The thought being if I need to deploy the BUG, it could be that I am forced to do so due to an injured dominant hand.

Same here, but under my left arm for a cavalry-style draw. Barrel-chest + short arms + IIIA armor limits options.

Beat Trash
03-31-2015, 02:51 PM
The "no ankle holster" thing is just silly assed, but I supposed it's better than no BUGs at all, which some places have.


Yep...

For the first 18 years of my career, BUG's were not authorized. But I might have accidentally dropped a S&W 642 in my off-side rear pants pocket...

Bigguy
03-31-2015, 04:55 PM
Yep...

For the first 18 years of my career, BUG's were not authorized. But I might have accidentally dropped a S&W 642 in my off-side rear pants pocket...

Just curious about off side rear pants pocket. What was the reasoning for that location. That's where I also carry my BUG and I wondered if you have the same thoughts I did on that location. I am not LEO.

saints75
03-31-2015, 09:23 PM
I carry in my vest. I use to carry my G27 on my gun side and drew it with my left hand. I used the Uncle Mikes holster. I don't care for it that much. There were a few times I did not holster my G27 in the holster correctly. I my start caring it on my left side now. I tried the Cross Bread vest holster. I did not care for it. I think it will work better for a gun like the G42, G43, the Shield or a 380.
I have tried ankle carry. I did not like it, so I do not do it.

60167
04-01-2015, 01:43 AM
What BUG options are allowed by your agency policy?

I'm allowed to carry pistols for reputable manufacturers (Glock, Smith, Ruger etc) in .380 and above. I must have a thumb break for retention. I must carry Hornady Critical Duty or Speer Gold Dot loads in said pistol. I must be able to qualify with it.

That's pretty much it.

LSP972
04-01-2015, 07:21 AM
But Uniform officers are forbidden to use ankle carry. Ankle carry is restricted to plain cloths officers only.

.

Seriously???

And what, pray tell, is their justification for that policy?

.

LSP972
04-01-2015, 07:32 AM
I carry in my vest. I use to carry my G27 on my gun side and drew it with my left hand. I used the Uncle Mikes holster. I don't care for it that much. There were a few times I did not holster my G27 in the holster correctly. I my start caring it on my left side now. I tried the Cross Bread vest holster. I did not care for it. I think it will work better for a gun like the G42, G43, the Shield or a 380.
I have tried ankle carry. I did not like it, so I do not do it.

Yes, for most folks the thinner the piece, the more usable a vest holster becomes. I had a few rookies on my shift that carried G26s in a vest holster, but they were all young, skinny kids.

I was weaned on ankle carry, and it worked well for me over 28.5 years; about half of which was in uniform. But I also wore a vest holster with another J frame, once I began wearing a vest regularly.

Ankle carry efficacy is almost totally dependent on your chosen holster. Most of the ones out there have issues of one sort or another. And like anything else of such a personal nature, much has to do with your physique, trousers, and footgear.

.

Beat Trash
04-01-2015, 08:49 AM
Just curious about off side rear pants pocket. What was the reasoning for that location. That's where I also carry my BUG and I wondered if you have the same thoughts I did on that location. I am not LEO.

Easy access to the gun with non-dominant hand. Should dominant hand be injured or hanging onto primary during a weapon retention struggle.

BehindBlueI's
04-01-2015, 08:50 AM
Seriously???

And what, pray tell, is their justification for that policy?

.

I will bet it is "difficult to retain during physical altercations" or some variant. Its tough to trap the gun in the holster during a fight, which is true, but I think is one of those things that typically only matters in the head of someone wearing shiny collar thingies.

Anyway, OP, I'm plain clothes but I carry an LCR quite comfortably in an ankle holster. I also wear a calf strap with handcuffs and a small flashlight on the opposite ankle. It balances out very well and doesn't bother my knees in the slightest and my left knee is hinky to begin with due to past injuries. I did not ankle carry while in uniform and pocket carried in my left trouser pocket. Even in the city, you're eventually going to chase someone through water that'll get your ankles wet. I've been up to mid-thigh chasing someone, and my patrol area was definitely urban. I'd rather not submerge the gun. I also wanted quick and easy access to something if my primary was trapped and I was in a worst case (guy in full mount wailing on your melon type worst case) event. Having it quick to hand with your off hand and the ability to contact shoot without worrying about pushing it out of battery made me prefer the revolver. I completely understand people who want magazine compatability. We've had both situations where an officer's primary was damaged in a fight and the ability to use his other mags would have been handy and we've had where the officer had someone sitting on his chest nearly knock him out before he got a shot off. There's always a trade off.

It seems like these days many of the uniformed folks are wearing a knife of some kind to use in the same type of scenario, and one of our instructors occasionally offers a knife fighting class. If allowed, that might be the ideal way to have a "get off me" quick access weapon and then a vest carried BUG for if something happens to your primary. I don't know that I would if I found myself back in uniform, though. It just seems difficult to try and retain multiple openly carried weapons and I've yet to see much retention on any of the knives.

Beat Trash
04-01-2015, 08:54 AM
Seriously???

And what, pray tell, is their justification for that policy?

.

Self appointed "experts" who are the self defense/ tactical instructors at the academy rolled around on a mat and determined that an ankle holster was less secure during a ground struggle.

I've been on long enough to remember when every one of these folks came on, and their career path. To a person, they all haven't spent much time actually on the street. And that was a long time ago.

I do not agree with their thoughts on the subject. But then no one really cares what a grumpy old Relief Sergeant has to say in the matter...

BehindBlueI's
04-01-2015, 09:16 AM
I will bet it is "difficult to retain during physical altercations" or some variant. Its tough to trap the gun in the holster during a fight, which is true, but I think is one of those things that typically only matters in the head of someone wearing shiny collar thingies.



Self appointed "experts" who are the self defense/ tactical instructors at the academy rolled around on a mat and determined that an ankle holster was less secure during a ground struggle.

I've been on long enough to remember when every one of these folks came on, and their career path. To a person, they all haven't spent much time actually on the street. And that was a long time ago.

I do not agree with their thoughts on the subject. But then no one really cares what a grumpy old Relief Sergeant has to say in the matter...

Called it. LOL, somethings in LE are universal.

Chuck Haggard
04-01-2015, 09:26 AM
I'm allowed to carry pistols for reputable manufacturers (Glock, Smith, Ruger etc) in .380 and above. I must have a thumb break for retention. I must carry Hornady Critical Duty or Speer Gold Dot loads in said pistol. I must be able to qualify with it.

That's pretty much it.

That is a pretty decent policy.

I'm in Topeka, and get to the KC area fairly regularly, wouldn't be adverse to meeting up and discussing options, going to the range, etc.

Chuck Haggard
04-01-2015, 09:45 AM
As far as ankle guns and ground fighting, beat trash's folks don't know what they don't know. I've extensively worked that problem with dummy guns in the mat room, anyone who target fixates on your ankle gun and tries to take it has set themselves up badly, and you should thank Baby Crom that they did so.

In certain situation, one can find an ankle rig MORE available than when it is carried elsewhere, be that sitting, flat on your back, or on the ground with a bad guy;
http://www.policemag.com/channel/weapons/articles/2007/04/the-winning-edge.aspx

http://www.lawofficer.com/articles/print/volume-3/issue-9/ground-defense/quickdraw-system.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGxxAEjFcX0


Over the years I have gone to a 642 on my ankle, another in my weak side front pocket, and a TDI knife inside my left pants leg cargo pocket (this is set up to be inside the pocket completely concealed and drawn like one would draw a pocket pistol). I'm lucky in that I've been able over the years to have the uniforms and policy change to where I can easily make this happen.

LSP972
04-01-2015, 10:06 AM
Self appointed "experts" who are the self defense/ tactical instructors at the academy ...

I've been on long enough to remember when every one of these folks came on, and their career path. To a person, they all haven't spent much time actually on the street. ..

I should have known. Glad to see there is some consistency from agency to agency...:rolleyes:

.

ack495
04-03-2015, 07:02 PM
Ive been using the same Uncle mikes vest holster you tried. Even with a kahr CW9 or Ruger LCR it would show a little bit.

I wear blauer street gear that has a zipper under the faux buttons. Not the easiest to access but I can do it pretty quickly.

The shield is about the same size as the kahr cw9. I would think that would be difficult for ankle carry. Some guys I work with ankle carry g27's. They say its fine but damn thats a big gun hanging on down there.

A 442/642 snub would work or a glock 42 which I carry as my bug now.

If you wanted to stay with a .40 trade that shield for a kahr pm40. Its a handful but easier to carry on the vest holster or the ankle.

HCM
04-03-2015, 08:56 PM
I should have known. Glad to see there is some consistency from agency to agency...:rolleyes:

.

Yup though this has been changing for the better in my agency.

HCM
04-03-2015, 09:20 PM
Self appointed "experts" who are the self defense/ tactical instructors at the academy rolled around on a mat and determined that an ankle holster was less secure during a ground struggle.

I've been on long enough to remember when every one of these folks came on, and their career path. To a person, they all haven't spent much time actually on the street. And that was a long time ago.

I do not agree with their thoughts on the subject. But then no one really cares what a grumpy old Relief Sergeant has to say in the matter...

Do y'all have "permanent " Academy staff?

We had permanent staff at our Academy and our national firearms and tatics unit for many years with similar results. About eight or nine years ago we switched to three year assignments with the option for two one-year extensions. Five years max then back out to the field, or HQ if you swing that way.

Regarding BUGs, I started out with. 640 in an ankle rig over combat boots or support side coat pocket in the winter due to snow not playing well with my open muzzle Desantis rig. I ran a Kahrs in 9 and 40 and finally settled on the 642 going back and forth between ankle and off side pocket carry. I've tried ankle carrying my G26 and found it too much weight. I will sometimes put the Glock 26 in an admin pouch on my external vest carrier in a Galco pocket holster.

I've had pretty good luck with the DeSantis Apache ankle rigs but I'm thinking of trying an Alessi or JRC version of the same with a thumb break. For some reason I've never found the Galco Ankle glove comfortable.

Beat Trash
04-04-2015, 09:36 AM
Yes the Training Unit is a terminate position. Many of the officers assigned are qualified by OPOTA to "train the trainer", and the state will have officers from other agencies in the region come to our training facility to be certified.

While I carry my BUG on the side of my soft body armor, I am thinking that a second BUG on the ankle would be nice. Yesterday while riding around and observing a recruit for a few hours, I was thinking how much easier it would be to access a BUG in an ankle holster while sitting on the passenger seat of a Police Car, should we get rushed suddenly.

At the end of the day, there is no "one size fits all" answer on how to carry a BUG. Your uniform style and unit/type of assignment can and will have some effect on what and how you can carry a BUG.

The important thing is that you DO carry a BUG. And that you practice and train with drawing and shooting from however you carry it.

DocGKR
04-04-2015, 09:56 AM
Exactly!

SLG
04-04-2015, 01:23 PM
OP,

I'm in your AO and would also be happy to meet up and shoot sometime. Maybe Chuck will actually come over this way for it?:-)

Everyone above has already given great info, but I'll add that as a small guy, I carried a G26 in a vest holster for years under my uniform shirt. Twice I was very glad to have it when my primary or someone else's primary wasn't available. I carried it on my right side, and replaced a few of my shirt buttons with velcro for easy training and access. They can be a pain to train with but if you don't, you're asking for trouble. A good seamstress will likely charge 5 dollars for the service.

EM_
04-04-2015, 01:42 PM
I used the bug holster on my vest for eleven years anytime I was in uniform (G27 as backup to duty G22).

Exterior vests sorry of ruined that and I went to ankle. If I were to ever find myself back in a uniform it'd be the 10-24 holster, and likely a J frame on the ankle. Even in plain clothes I do a G23 AIWB or hip and a G27 ankle.

Also I second SLG with having some buttons replaced with velcro. I think I got that idea from Louis Awerbuck.

LSP972
04-04-2015, 09:36 PM
Most of the uniform shirts back in my day featured an "interior" zipper; only the top two buttons were actually functional. I would leave mine un-zipped just enough for four fingers to get through; then rip the zipper down a bit more while going for the J frame under my armpit.

.

60167
04-05-2015, 12:48 AM
Here's a quick update:

My (concealable) vest carrier came with two wide straps, one per side. I threaded the left strap through the vest holster. The downside was that the straps took up a lot of real estate, and I was unable to cant the gun at all. I ended up replacing the wide strap on the holster side with two narrow straps. One narrow strap threads through the holster loop while the other one goes over the holster.

The end result is that I can cant the holster and it doesn't seem to sit so close to my body. I can get a better grip on my gun, and it goes back into place easier when I need to reholster it. Now I need to get zippers sewn into my shirts.

Thanks

167

stingray
04-06-2015, 11:32 AM
Self appointed "experts" who are the self defense/ tactical instructors at the academy rolled around on a mat and determined that an ankle holster was less secure during a ground struggle.

I've been on long enough to remember when every one of these folks came on, and their career path. To a person, they all haven't spent much time actually on the street. And that was a long time ago.

I do not agree with their thoughts on the subject. But then no one really cares what a grumpy old Relief Sergeant has to say in the matter...

lol!!! Geography is all that really changes.