Adequacy Of Buffalo Bore .45 ACP +P 230 gr JHP

[JonInWA]

I plan on being in an area in Eastern Washington (Lake Alta/Pateros/Chelan Okanogan Forest area) in April where there's a chance of black bear/cougar encounters, albeit probably fairly remote. I will be carrying a Glock Gen 3 G21; my normal personal defense load is 230 gr Remington Golder Saber, but given the potential wildlife encounter, I figured having some sterner stuff on tap might not be such a bad idea.

I will be doing some hiking in with a small group (5-8 hikers), so the noise we generate will probably cause most prudent animals to head off. However, just in case, I got some Buffalo Bore 230gr +P JHP (I had originally intended to get their 230gr +P FMJ Flat Nose, but the JHP was what I found to be obtainable in my neck of the woods).

The bullet appears to be a Speer hollow point, and the round clocks at 950 fps + (as does the FMJ FN round)(on-line reports seem to indicate that the actual performance is slightly higher than the manufacturer stipulates). What's the consensus of the group on the sufficiency of this round for my purposes, and it's use in the Glock G21?

Best, Jon

[GJM]

Might be marginally better than what you have now, but since I value reliability ahead of terminal performance in a semi auto, I would only carry it if you shot enough to satisfy yourself it was as reliable as your current load. My experience with Glock pistols, especially the 20/29, is that the "hotter and heavier" you go in a particular caliber, the closer to the edge of the reliability envelope you go. If I was focused on penetration, I would carry a .40 over .45acp -- assuming you have one.

Cats are soft targets, and I wouldn't hesitate to carry a 9 with good bullets for them, and even for a black bear.

[JonInWA]

Thanks, GJM-I was hoping you'd be one of the respondants. I'll run some through and see what my thoughts are. And I read the previous earlier thread on the interesting (in a good sense) performance of the Winchester Ranger 127 gr +P+, which is one of my standard carry rounds for my G17 and G34 (both Gen 3)...

Any thoughts on such a .45 ACP Buffalo Bore +P JHP /Remington Golden Saber 230 gr JHP vs. 9mm Winchester Ranger comparo for my scenario? Again, the .45 would be carried in my G21, and the 9mm in my G34, to eke the maximum velocity benefits.

Best, Jon

[GJM]

I am kind of anti B Bore, as their 200 penetrator load in 10mm will not function in my 20, 29 or 1066/1076! I really like major manufacturer loads.

For bears, my plan is one warning shot in the ground in front of them, then one to the body, followed by the rest to the upper CNS. That is why I prioitize reliability. Velocity not so much, as I am not shooting until very, very close. I prefer a 17 or 19 size gun for ease of carry, but I would bring whatever was vetted reliable and you shoot well. If that is the 34, that is fine, but I wouldn't bring it just for a smidge more velocity.

[DocGKR]

Black bears and especially mountain lions are NOT that hard to bring down. Just use your regular duty/carry loads.

[JonInWA]

Guys, thanks. Appreciate the quick response and reassurance (and saving me a quest for yet another ammunition search!).

Best, Jon

[41magfan]

I routinely use my carry guns to hunt deer with and this has become my go-to choice in .45 ACP (+P);

http://www.hornady.com/store/45-ACP-P-230-gr-XTP/

They're readily available on-line or at retail outlets and I routinely find them on sale for @ $15 for 20 rds. They've proven to be very accurate and reliable in all my Glocks & Colts and they penetrate better than Gold Dots IME.

[LSP972]

I routinely use my carry guns to hunt deer with and this has become my go-to choice in .45 ACP (+P);

http://www.hornady.com/store/45-ACP-P-230-gr-XTP/



I assume you wouldn't recommend them if you'd had any issues. How long have you been using them? There were some pretty serious problems with them a few years back, mainly concerning their use in guns with a very short leade. The bullets were seated out a bit too far, and were hitting the leade, preventing the gun from going into battery. IIRC, there were a few other QC problems as well, but that's the one I remember.

.

[41magfan]

I assume you wouldn't recommend them if you'd had any issues. How long have you been using them? There were some pretty serious problems with them a few years back, mainly concerning their use in guns with a very short leade. The bullets were seated out a bit too far, and were hitting the leade, preventing the gun from going into battery. IIRC, there were a few other QC problems as well, but that's the one I remember.

.

About 3 years, I guess. They work fine in my Glock 21 and 30 and a couple of 1911's. They certainly are a bit longer (1.250 vs 1.203) than Gold Dots in OAL but I've experienced no problems with feeding from my magazines or chambering in my particular guns.

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/538/oJ1i64.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/eyoJ1i64j)

[Chuck Haggard]

I was going to suggest the Hornady +P, but that's been done.

I shot that loading for years when I wanted .45acp that penetrated a bit more then the average .45acp JHP. Never had an issue from my Glocks or HKs

[Totem Polar]

Black bears and especially mountain lions are NOT that hard to bring down. Just use your regular duty/carry loads.

I was going to say this as well. Assuming you see a cougar first, your carry load will do. The bigger issue is that they can be stealthy critters.

[JonInWA]

Good point on the cougars. The good news is, we'll be hiking as a group-I'd think that there would be a significantly higher risk factor if I was hiking alone, where a hungry carnivore might perceive that I was a weaker/weakened animal cut from the heard, and thus more appealing snack bait.

On the other hand, last year's devastating fires in the region (including immediately where I'll be) might make for some more aggressive behaviors from predators, especially if deprived of their normal/easier food sources...

Taking in the input, I think I'll 1) Test the Buffalo Bore 230 gr +P JHPs that I have for cycling/functioning/accuracy, and then (assuming it passes acceptability criteria) 2) have at least a magazine of them on hand along with my standard-pressure 230 gr Golden Sabers and Hydra-Shoks normal carry loads.

Actually, taking in all the information provided, especially regarding black bears (versus grizzly), I kind of like going the JHP route, as Im now feeling that they provide a nicely acceptable dual approach to human and animal predators.

Again, thanks to all for the input and participation (and feel free to keep it coming). I'll let everyone know the results of my pre-use testing, such as it'll be.

Best, Jon

[JonInWA]

Might be marginally better than what you have now, but since I value reliability ahead of terminal performance in a semi auto, I would only carry it if you shot enough to satisfy yourself it was as reliable as your current load. My experience with Glock pistols, especially the 20/29, is that the "hotter and heavier" you go in a particular caliber, the closer to the edge of the reliability envelope you go. If I was focused on penetration, I would carry a .40 over .45acp -- assuming you have one.

Cats are soft targets, and I wouldn't hesitate to carry a 9 with good bullets for them, and even for a black bear.

I do have a .40-my FH Hi Power, and some excellent Federal 180 gr HST, but I prefer to stick with the Glock for outdoor use, as it's a bit more weather impervious, and I feel that I have an acceptable cartridge/cartridge mix on hand for it (both for my 9mm and .45 ACP Glocks). Good point, though.

Best, Jon

[GJM]

here is your bear load, courtesy of JHC:

http://www.handgunsmag.com/ammo/ammunition_hg_0208_01/

[5pins]

Wouldn’t under penetration with a hollow points be a concern with bears?

When I lived in eastern Washington I would carry a 1911 with a hot 230gr ball handload.

[Chuck Haggard]

Wouldn’t under penetration with a hollow points be a concern with bears?

When I lived in eastern Washington I would carry a 1911 with a hot 230gr ball handload.

Maybe, but I think JHPs are more likely to grab on a skull shot than FMJs, so there's that consideration

[JonInWA]

Wouldn’t under penetration with a hollow points be a concern with bears?

When I lived in eastern Washington I would carry a 1911 with a hot 230gr ball handload.

My initial though was that it would be, but some of the research that I've done indicates that black bears tend to retreat when exposed to noise/pain (grizzlys, on the other hand...), so that makes the JHP a viable alternative-especially an amped-up JHP. Keep in mind that my research on this is not all that in-depth, so anyone with greater expereince/advice would be welcome to contribute to the thread.

Best, Jon

[JonInWA]

here is your bear load, courtesy of JHC:

http://www.handgunsmag.com/ammo/ammunition_hg_0208_01/

For years I indeed did prefer .357 SIG as an outdoor/wilderness cartridge, having various SIG P229s, a Sigpro 2340, and a Beretta C8357 Cougar chambered for it. At the end of the day, I found the SIG P229s to be to bulky and clunky (relatively speaking), the Sigpro to have a high bore axis and seemingly requiring disproportonate time to master well to take full advantage of, and the Cougar had significant reliability issues and sight issues (Beretta simply used the sights for the .40 8340, which wasn't a great solution, and it's not as if there were multiple sight option for Cougars-and then there were the reliability issues...that killed that gun pretty quickly.

.357 SIG ammunition seems to be more available recently, so a Gen4 Glock G31, or a Gen4 G22 with a .357 SIG barrel might be a great solution, and is somewhat on my future Glock acquisition radar. But for now, I'm working with what I've got.

Best, Jon

[Chuck Haggard]

This sort of talk is why I have yet to list the gen 4 G31 I have and put it up for sale, even though I've been meaning to sell it for well over a year now.

[JonInWA]

This sort of talk is why I have yet to list the gen 4 G31 I have and put it up for sale, even though I've been meaning to sell it for well over a year now.

Chuck, since the introduction of the Gen4, my thoughts have always been that the primary beneficiaries of the Gen4 features (especially the Gen4 RSA) would be the higher pressure/higher intensity cartridge chambered Glocks-those in .40, .357 SIG and 10mm. My eventual intention is to get a Gen4 G22, and a Gen4 .357 SIG barrel to go with it. In my opinion, the Gen4 features applied to those chamberings (especially those in .40 and .357 SIG) transform the G22, G35, G23, G27, G31, G32, and G33 from a 9mm platform lightly made-over (and in my opinion, in the long run, insufficiently insofar as long-term/high roundcount usage is concerned) into a much more sturdy caliber/use centric Glocks in those cartridge chamberings.

It would be very interesting to compare how the Gen4 RSA favorably affects the handling characteristics/split times with a compact G32-if the recoil impulse is suitably decreased, the G32 could be a very, very viable woods/mountain biking Glock choice. However, until someone credible tests, I'll default to the G22/G31.

Best, Jon

[GJM]

My initial though was that it would be, but some of the research that I've done indicates that black bears tend to retreat when exposed to noise/pain (grizzlys, on the other hand...), so that makes the JHP a viable alternative-especially an amped-up JHP. Keep in mind that my research on this is not all that in-depth, so anyone with greater expereince/advice would be welcome to contribute to the thread.

Best, Jon

Here is the problem with that train of thought. If your bullet can't penetrate the brain, you are relying on the equivalent of a psychological stop by the bear. So be able to penetrate the brain, or if you are going with the psychological stop it hardly matters what you carry? I do the same analysis all the time, except with brown bears.

[SamAdams]

The area where the OP mentioned doesn't produce particularly large black bears. It's not Alaska or British Columbia.
One of the loads on "The List" would probably do the job for defensive purposes.

Check out the following website. The professional hunter is now in Africa, but he lived and guided in Washington State and up in Alaska. He also did bear control. He was involved with or oversaw the taking of hundreds of black bears over the years. If you websearch his name or his online name JJHACK you should be able to find his thoughts on handguns and bears. He posted online and also wrote articles found in Bear Hunting magazine. As I recall, for black bears he suggested a robust hollow-point. That will anchor a black bear, he'll swat at the wound like it was a hornet sting which should help set him up for more killing shots if needed. For the big bears - griz, brownies, etc you need to go for deep penetration and bone busting - hard cast lead wide FP. But these aren't the bears you'll run across in the area mentioned. - - For awhile he guided for cops who wanted to use their service pistols to hunt black bears. Hack wasn't impressed. They had to expend a lot of lead and he feared that an angry bear would harm his tracking dogs. The bears did eventually die however. With hunting, you hope to make a single clean shot, maybe with one more for good measure. Hack recommended use of a revolver if handgun hunting for black bears. For defense he preferred a revolver with some hollow points - something like XTPs would be good - with flat wide meplat hard cast lead in a couple of cylinder chambers if additional killing shots were needed IIRC. - Of course, hunting black bears and defending yourself against one are entirely different things. A websearch should come up with specifics:

http://www.huntingadventures.net

P.S. - black bears tend to run from humans, but I've been stalked by one and a buddy was caught up in a tree stand with one below going after him. In both instances we were hunting other game and the bear hadn't known we were humans till very close (camo & wind direction).

[LSP552]

I want a Glock that I know will penetrate a bear's skull. We try and get to Alaska every couple of years and I generally take a warm loaded Blackhawk .45 Colt. I've given serious consideration to Glock 20 but GJM's heavy 10mm reliability experiences scares me a bit. I've also thought about the .40, but never really considered the .357 SIG before.

[GJM]

FIFY


I want a Glock that I know will reliably function while using a load that WILL reliably penetrate a brown bear's skull

[LSP552]

FIFY

Yes that^

Sooooo....the answer is?

[GJM]

Check out the following website. The professional hunter is now in Africa, but he lived and guided in Washington State and up in Alaska. He also did bear control. He was involved with or oversaw the taking of hundreds of black bears over the years. If you websearch his name or his online name JJHACK you should be able to find his thoughts on handguns and bears. He posted online and also wrote articles found in Bear Hunting magazine. As I recall, for black bears he suggested a robust hollow-point. That will anchor a black bear, he'll swat at the wound like it was a hornet sting which should help set him up for more killing shots if needed. For the big bears - griz, brownies, etc you need to go for deep penetration and bone busting - hard cast lead wide FP. But these aren't the bears you'll run across in the area mentioned. - - For awhile he guided for cops who wanted to use their service pistols to hunt black bears. Hack wasn't impressed. They had to expend a lot of lead and he feared that an angry bear would harm his tracking dogs. The bears did eventually die however. With hunting, you hope to make a single clean shot, maybe with one more for good measure. Hack recommended use of a revolver if handgun hunting for black bears. For defense he preferred a revolver with some hollow points - something like XTPs would be good - with flat wide meplat hard cast lead in a couple of cylinder chambers if additional killing shots were needed IIRC. - Of course, hunting black bears and defending yourself against one are entirely different things. A websearch should come up with specifics:

http://www.huntingadventures.net
.

Google turned this up:

http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/showthread.php/68293-44-mag-Hollow-points-on-Black-Bears-cont

Some things he says aren't giving me a good feeling. For instance, this selection from the link above:


So what are the cartridges which are failures, and the cartridges which are gems in the handgun world according to my experience with hundreds of bears killed? The bad choices are the 38 caliber the 9mm, and the 40S&W. These three should be strictly police work, targets or plinkers. The 40 S&W, and 9mm need cleaning and attention daily. I have seen plenty of these semi-autos fail to cycle with pine needles jammed into them and leaf mulch or dirt in the action. They seemed to have the highest level of cleaning and maintenance needed by far. Revolvers on the other hand seem to be trouble free and made for hunti

[SamAdams]

@GJM - beats me. I suppose it all comes down to the context. He guided hundreds of paying clients on hunts, not in an urban environment. Perhaps the average Joe has less problems with revolvers out in the boonies than semi autos. Not relevant to me. The context he speaks about is hunting. And hunting is different than defense. I mention the man because he likely has much more experience than most people when it comes to actually killing black bears. - - IMO there is value in considering the opinions of one with this much experience. I've never shot a black bear with a service round. I would never hunt one with such a round either (have hunted them with rifle, revolver, and bow). - - - This is what I took from the numerous online postings and the magazine articles I read by the man - for BLACK BEAR consider a robust hollow point. It should be of heavy construction. If you use it in a revolver, you can also load some hard cast WFN in the cylinder. For BIG BEAR go for penetration and tough hard cast WFN.
In big bear country, - Alaska, parts of Montana, etc - I like double action revolvers in 44 Mag, heavy 45 Colt, or 454. In black bear country (except where they grow big) - I've carried such revolvers, plus those in 44 Special, the Glock 20, & Glock 21. The Glocks were loaded with XTPs. And if I was the OP, I would consider the Hornady 230gr +P XTP 45acp loading. Again, the black bears in that country aren't the big boys you find in Alaska and Montana. Totally different situation.

[GJM]

I am not doubting his experience. My point, is some of the statements he makes, make me question either his recollections or his precision. 240 and 250 grain ACP JHP ammo, the reliability of 9 and 40 service pistols, being just a few examples.

I do agree that his recommendation of a .44 magnum class revolver, shooting wide meplat hard cast is a proven solition. If I expected bear trouble, and wouldn't have a long gun handy, that is what I would pick.

[SamAdams]

I am not doubting his experience. My point, is some of the statements he makes, make me question either his recollections or his precision. 240 and 250 grain ACP JHP ammo, the reliability of 9 and 40 service pistols, being just a few examples.

I do agree that his recommendation of a .44 magnum class revolver, shooting wide meplat hard cast is a proven solition. If I expected bear trouble, and wouldn't have a long gun handy, that is what I would pick.

It looks like, to me, that another fellow may have re typed the article and made a typo ? I say this because I had read that article - or ones worded very similarly by the same author - on several different forums and they didn't have those mistakes. - And no doubt about it, when it comes to hunting and bears, he's definitely a revolver guy not impressed by service pistols.


Now what I'm Really interested in is what someone else already mentioned - a Proven and reliable 10mm load for use in a Glock while in griz country ! With a track record of actually stopping a few big bears.

[GJM]

It looks like, to me, that another fellow may have re typed the article and made a typo ? I say this because I had read that article on several different forums and it didn't have those mistakes.


Now what I'm Really interested in is what someone else already mentioned - a Proven and reliable 10mm load for use in a Glock while in griz country ! With a track record of actually stopping a few big bears.

Apologies to the author, if that is the case.

I am not sure there is a proven 10mm load on bears, that functions in the Glock. I would lay money that hard cast would perform best, but I don't have a great track record with hard cast in a Glock, using an after market barrel. I have been very interested in the Federal Trophy Bonded load, but Gary reported so so penetration in one test.

Right now, I am leaning towards running hard cast in my 1066 and 1076, as they have fed everything except the B Bore FMJ 200 penetrator load, which chokes everything. I had JM make me an AIWB, and Dale Fricke make me a Gideon and Gideon like custom that mates to QLS hardware, so I can run them this summer. Rather have a Glock 29 for size, weight and capacity, but reliability trumps those concerns.

[41magfan]

I have no axe to grind regarding the 10mm and I have absolutely zero experience killing bears, but I've been on this planet long enough to recognize that twinkle far too many folks get in their eye when they mention the 10mm and stopping attacking bears in the same sentence. It's the same twinkle folks had in their eye 40+ years ago when the .357 Magnum or the .45 ACP was mentioned in the same sentence as being a man-stopper.

[SamAdams]

Apologies to the author, if that is the case.

I am not sure there is a proven 10mm load on bears, that functions in the Glock. I would lay money that hard cast would perform best, but I don't have a great track record with hard cast in a Glock, using an after market barrel. I have been very interested in the Federal Trophy Bonded load, but Gary reported so so penetration in one test.

Right now, I am leaning towards running hard cast in my 1066 and 1076, as they have fed everything except the B Bore FMJ 200 penetrator load, which chokes everything. I had JM make me an AIWB, and Dale Fricke make me a Gideon and Gideon like custom that mates to QLS hardware, so I can run them this summer. Rather have a Glock 29 for size, weight and capacity, but reliability trumps those concerns.

I'm not defending him, - sure he could do that himself. I'm just presenting an interesting viewpoint for us to consider by a fellow with lots of black bear experience. I try to hold the philosophy - 'take what is useful to me, and throw out the rest'.



That's interesting your experience with the 1066 and 1076. I'll be interested to hear your future impressions on how it works for you.

I agree, reliability is the first concern. If someone figures out how to make a reliable 10mm griz skull cracker for a Glock, he'd probably sell a few.

[SamAdams]

I have no axe to grind regarding the 10mm and I have absolutely zero experience killing bears, but I've been on this planet long enough to recognize that twinkle far too many folks get in their eye when they mention the 10mm and stopping attacking bears in the same sentence. It's the same twinkle folks had in their eye 40+ years ago when the .357 Magnum or the .45 ACP was mentioned in the same sentence as being a man-stopper.


+ 1

Gotta agree when talking about big bears. Who knows what they may come up with in the future. If you told me 15 years ago I would be buying 9mm pistols & ammo, I probably wouldn't have believed you.

[GJM]

Another thought about JJ's recommendation for a JHP. First, he is talking about JHP out of a .44 magnum, which is a whole different thing than JHP in a .45 acp. Second, and most significantly, he is discussing hunting bears as opposed to defending against a bear attack. JHP might have advantages hunting, but defending against an attack, I would want a bullet that can penetrate the brain, and that will be a hard cast not a JHP in a .44 magnum.

[SamAdams]

Another thought about JJ's recommendation for a JHP. First, he is talking about JHP out of a .44 magnum, which is a whole different thing than JHP in a .45 acp. Second, and most significantly, he is discussing hunting bears as opposed to defending against a bear attack. JHP might have advantages hunting, but defending against an attack, I would want a bullet that can penetrate the brain, and that will be a hard cast not a JHP in a .44 magnum.

Glad you brought that up as I meant to clarify that. - JJ's recommendations for JHP is for BLACK BEAR use. This is for hunting and defense. Why ? A bear's thick hide, fat, and flesh means that body shot wound tracks are likely to seal up and cause little bleeding if not a HP. The animal will go a long time before it's stopped. He found that black bears will stop and swat at the 'stinging' JHP wound, so that more shots can be fired at it if required. And as I recall, he liked to have a couple of WFN hard cast in his wheel gun, if needed. Now, if someone can pull off a head shot on a charging bear busting out of the bushes, - great. It's more likely that (for most of us) a body shot is more doable.
For BIG BEARS, he said forget the above, forget JHPs. They are entirely different critters than black bears. This is true in terms of their size, construction, and general aggressiveness towards humans. For big bears you need to break bones or get lucky and take out part of their CNS. JJ sees that as really a job for a rifle, of course. He isn't too enthusiastic over a handgun for that role, and especially not service pistols, which do not match revolver performance in that particular application. GJM - of course, you live in big bear country, so JHPs aren't appropriate for bear defense in JJ's opinion.

Please note that I'm relating the opinions of JJ as I recall from reading numerous of his online posts and magazine articles over the years. Though I have hunted bears, his first hand experience witnessing the taking of hundreds of the animals far exceeds my own. But what he wrote makes sense to me given my more limited sample size.

It might be interesting to email him to see what his current views are on handguns for black bear and big bear protection. Maybe we could catch him between times when he's out in the bush.

[JHC]

Legally defensible bear defense in AK is a very close range proposition. Body shots with any handgun is a roll of expensive dice at 10 yards and closing fast. There is a whole lot of bear body where a hit there may not stop it in the time envelope.

This morning I was comparing two pistols to put 3 hits on a 4x6 card from the ready at 7 yards. A G31 and 629. The .44 needed an incremental 1.5 to 2 seconds shooting DA.

I thing it's amazing how often single action revolvers .44 and bigger are recommended for this scenario.

[SamAdams]

I think it's amazing how often single action revolvers .44 and bigger are recommended for this scenario.

Yep - IMO for big bear country, (AK, parts of MT, etc, etc) a d.a. revolver with hard cast in 44 Mag, 45 Colt, or 454 is best. Something that has a better chance to crack through his skull as he gets in close (which doesn't take long - they can move Damned fast!)
Enjoy your trip to AK ! :)

[JHC]

Yep - IMO for big bear country, (AK, parts of MT, etc, etc) a d.a. revolver with hard cast in 44 Mag, 45 Colt, or 454 is best. Something that has a better chance to crack his skull open as he gets in close (which doesn't take long - they can move Damned fast!)
Enjoy your trip to AK ! :)

Thanks!

[LSP552]

This morning I was comparing two pistols to put 3 hits on a 4x6 card from the ready. A G31 and 629. The .44 needed an incremental 1.5 to 2 seconds shooting DA.

I thing it's amazing how often single action revolvers .44 and bigger are recommended for this scenario.

As long as I have two hands, I shoot a SA Blackhawk about as fast as I can a DA for the same accuracy standard. I know the as long as I have two hands stipulation is pretty restrictive in a worse case scenario. That's one of the reasons I'm looking for another alternative. I've never been to Alaska without getting wet, which is why Glocks are so attractive to me.

[SamAdams]

Getting back to the OP's original question - The black bears in the area he mentioned aren't the really big guys. And to put it all in perspective, it is Highly Unlikely that you would have a problem with a black bear. This is especially true if you're not being particularly quiet or stealthy (as when hunting) and if you don't leave a bunch of food and garbage around camp.
The odds (though still slight) are greater of having problems with two legged, rather than four legged predators. I like XTPs in my Glock 20s and 21s when used for this application. Reliable feeding. More robust JHP for black bears and will work fine for any two legged bad guys up in the woods. I don't say that other options wouldn't work - but have used the XTPs through my pistols and am confident in them. - Might also get some bear spray if you want.

[GJM]

Hornady factory ammo with 200 grain XTP bullets have been my proven load, for over ten years, in my Glock 20 and 29.

On blood trails -- they are extremely important for hunting, but not important to me for bear defense. Hunting, I have a moral and legal obligation to follow a wounded animal. Bear defense, my imperative is to stop the attack. Will be interesting to check Alaska DLP (defense of life and property) rules, as to what they say about following a bear, after an attack has been stopped.

I love shooting a SA revolver, like my Bowen tuned four inch .44. Not so good in a close fight with a bear, where you may need one arm to hang onto something, or that arm is being chewed on.

[GJM]

This thread caused me to pull out my 1066, which I haven't shot since last summer.

First 9 shots were at the one inch square at 7 yards, shot not slowly. First round a smidge high, next a smidge low, and with elevation worked out, the next 7 rounds into the one inch square. I immediately went to 25 yards, and shot this five shot group off hand, without delay. Measured 2.5 inches exactly.

I think the 1066/1076 is "the" 10mm for someone comfortable with DA/SA guns, and who values accuracy and reliability. The gun just feels solid shooting 10mm, and seems happy with hard cast, which must have the most potential of all 10mm loads, absent something like the Lehigh which I know little about, for penetrating a brown bear's skull.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps3eoiyapr.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps3eoiyapr.jpg.html)

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsmnub5fjb.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsmnub5fjb.jpg.html)

And, probably a fun gun for toting in 10 round states. :)

[Jeep]

Unfortunately the 1066 is about as common as unicorns where I live. I have never even seen one. I suppose they didn't sell well, but I know many people who want them.

[GJM]

Unfortunately the 1066 is about as common as unicorns where I live. I have never even seen one. I suppose they didn't sell well, but I know many people who want them.

I found mine on GunBroker.

[JonInWA]

Thanks for posting the test results, GJM. I'll similarly post mine with the Buffalo Bores when I have a chance to hit the range.

Best, Jon

[Chuck Haggard]

A bud at work had a 1066 about ten years ago. Memory of shooting that gun was of moderate recoil, and accuracy similar to what George posted.

[JonInWA]

Since I initiated this thread, I have had several opportunities to discuss his 230 gr +P JHP with the owner of Buffalo Bore, Tim Sundles. He's been very responsive and informative, and essentially 1) does not expect reliability issues with this round and my Glock 21 to arise, as the round was developed for successful use in the Glock 21 (among other .45 ACP handguns, I'm sure, but specifically around the G21) and has been extensively tested by them in multiple G21s; and 2) That he feels that I can adequately get by with their JHP (especially for defense against black bears) but really recommends going with a non-expanding solid bullet for killing bears. He also provided this helpful link which tracks nicely with this thread's discussion and member experience:

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=108

Best, Jon

[GJM]

. He also provided this helpful link which tracks nicely with this thread's discussion and member experience:

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=108

Best, Jon

Good read!

[JHC]

Good read!

+1 and another good one from Garrett. Whose "medium" Defender loads I've just ordered. http://www.garrettcartridges.com/defensive.html

[SamAdams]

Since I initiated this thread, I have had several opportunities to discuss his 230 gr +P JHP with the owner of Buffalo Bore, Tim Sundles. He's been very responsive and informative, and essentially 1) does not expect reliability issues with this round and my Glock 21 to arise, as the round was developed for successful use in the Glock 21 (among other .45 ACP handguns, I'm sure, but specifically around the G21) and has been extensively tested by them in multiple G21s; and 2) That he feels that I can adequately get by with their JHP (especially for defense against black bears) but really recommends going with a non-expanding solid bullet for killing bears. He also provided this helpful link which tracks nicely with this thread's discussion and member experience:

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=108

Best, Jon

Did he mention what JHPs he uses for that load ?

If I recall, in the past, he would sometimes switch JHPs depending on availibility and would never say what bullets he was using. For that reason, I chose not to buy JHP loads from him. (I don't know if this is true of BB now.) I do sometimes use his cast lead ammo for outdoor applications.

P.S. - in the area you mentioned, unusually large black bears might run up to 350 lbs or so.
The average is more in the area of 250 lbs and females are even smaller.

[JHC]

Yep - IMO for big bear country, (AK, parts of MT, etc, etc) a d.a. revolver with hard cast in 44 Mag, 45 Colt, or 454 is best. Something that has a better chance to crack through his skull as he gets in close (which doesn't take long - they can move Damned fast!)
Enjoy your trip to AK ! :)

I have some of Garrett's 310 grain cast "Defender" loads on the way. Modest approx. 1000 fps. I'm hoping I can ride those tigers easier than American Eagle 240 grain JSPs.

[SamAdams]

I have some of Garrett's 310 grain cast "Defender" loads on the way. Modest approx. 1000 fps. I'm hoping I can ride those tigers easier than American Eagle 240 grain JSPs.

Garrett is good stuff :)

I like their 45-70 ammo too.

[GJM]

Garrett is good stuff :)

I like their 45-70 ammo too.

I agree on Garrett. I harvested a mule deer with a single round of the defender load at 42 yards. The shot struck the rear of the deer, penetrated lengthwise, and exited the chest. Also took a brown bear with Garrett ammo in 45-70. DRT, no bullets recovered.

[SamAdams]

Well, of course, a fellow is free to use whatever ammo he'd like. But IMO he should be very careful about what he chooses when he might need to do more than punch paper, ring gongs, or plink at cans. Sometimes hype and reality aren't in synch. We come here to help each other out as much as we can, and that's the spirit in which this is presented:


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IFSVXGNWHKE

[JonInWA]

Good report-thanks.

Best, Jon

[DocGKR]

Why would you want to use such a handgun load for self-defense in the lower 48 states?

[JHC]

IDK Lower 48 non-grizzly.

Is it true the FBI added a few inches to their minimum penetration standard?

[DocGKR]

12-18" remains the standard.

I would much rather use a well proven, barrier blind duty load for any lower 48 use.

[GJM]

This thread caused me to drag out my 4566, that I bought on Bill Riehl's recommendation, and use as a sub caliber trainer for my 1066. Not a lot of time or .45 ammo along, but I had one box of Winchester 230 ball. First group DA/SA at 25, then second group DA only at 25. These are great shooting pistols in a classic sort of way!

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpshql5fiwk.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpshql5fiwk.jpg.html)

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsvdoji7vg.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsvdoji7vg.jpg.html)

[Sigfan26]

This thread caused me to pull out my 1066, which I haven't shot since last summer.

First 9 shots were at the one inch square at 7 yards, shot not slowly. First round a smidge high, next a smidge low, and with elevation worked out, the next 7 rounds into the one inch square. I immediately went to 25 yards, and shot this five shot group off hand, without delay. Measured 2.5 inches exactly.

I think the 1066/1076 is "the" 10mm for someone comfortable with DA/SA guns, and who values accuracy and reliability. The gun just feels solid shooting 10mm, and seems happy with hard cast, which must have the most potential of all 10mm loads, absent something like the Lehigh which I know little about, for penetrating a brown bear's skull.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps3eoiyapr.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps3eoiyapr.jpg.html)

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsmnub5fjb.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsmnub5fjb.jpg.html)

And, probably a fun gun for toting in 10 round states. :)


This thread caused me to drag out my 4566, that I bought on Bill Riehl's recommendation, and use as a sub caliber trainer for my 1066. Not a lot of time or .45 ammo along, but I had one box of Winchester 230 ball. First group DA/SA at 25, then second group DA only at 25. These are great shooting pistols in a classic sort of way!

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpshql5fiwk.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpshql5fiwk.jpg.html)

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsvdoji7vg.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsvdoji7vg.jpg.html)

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/04/01/dac051c40db021a4582eb24b85c5a30a.jpg

[DocGKR]

My duty pistol was a 4566 for a lot of years--worked very well and complemented the off-duty 3913.

[SamAdams]

12-18" remains the standard.

I would much rather use a well proven, barrier blind duty load for any lower 48 use.


And in the case of the Buffalo Bore JHP load, you may not know what particular bullet you're getting.

IMO problems of some of the boutique ammo makers offerings include - sometimes using inferior bullets for the particular application (such as Montana Gold), driving good bullets too fast, and often an outrageous price.

Even if such a boutique maker used a GoldDot or XTP, why pay 2-3 times (for example) what you would for Speer Gold Dot that's even on The List ?

The stuff is marketed as somehow being 'more powerful' for outdoors applications.

I've used BB lead cast loads using Keith SWCs. When ammo & handloading components were scare I bought them, and if time was scarce for handloading my own I might buy a box. But, I haven't and wouldn't buy his JHP loads for the reasons I mentioned.

[GJM]

IMO problems of some of the boutique ammo makers offerings include - sometimes using inferior bullets for the particular application (such as Montana Gold), driving good bullets too fast, and often an outrageous price.

Pretty sure Gary has been making that exact point for the last 5-10 years.

[Chuck Haggard]

Pretty sure Gary has been making that exact point for the last 5-10 years.

Or more............

[Jeep]

12-18" remains the standard.



I don't know if there is any data on the subject, but having seen some of the arrestees going into our local court, I'm wondering if the population of "supersized" bad guys has been increasing, and thus whether it is better to err on the upper side of that range? Some of the guys I've seen in orange jump suits are truly enormous--well north of 300 pounds I'd say.

[Chuck Haggard]

I don't know if there is any data on the subject, but having seen some of the arrestees going into our local court, I'm wondering if the population of "supersized" bad guys has been increasing, and thus whether it is better to err on the upper side of that range? Some of the guys I've seen in orange jump suits are truly enormous--well north of 300 pounds I'd say.

They can be, or skinny meth/crack heads, which is why ammo needs to be "general purpose".

[JonInWA]

http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae343/JonInWA/Targets/c121dff5-3cbf-4d4f-8a71-e0c6b832636d.jpg (http://s986.photobucket.com/user/JonInWA/media/Targets/c121dff5-3cbf-4d4f-8a71-e0c6b832636d.jpg.html)

The results of my quick operational "test-" Five rounds of the Buffalo Bore 230gr +P JHP at 5-6 yards distance, shooting fairly quickly offhand unsupported, using my intended platform, my Gen 3 Glock G21.

Yeah, I yanked the first round....

While 5 rounds is hardly exhaustive in any sense, I'm satisfied as to the cycleability of the rounds in my G21, and the accuracy (assuming I do my part...) is sufficient.

Interestingly, in the same session, I went through some Federal Champion 230 gr aluminum cased/small pistol primered ball in both my G21 and in my SIG GSR XO (I was primarily testing magazine reliability of a new potential Check-Mate magazine/magazine series in the SIG)-I don't think it's my imagination-that Federal stuff is really on the spicy side; recoil impulse and blast seemed to be at least in the same ballpark as the Buffalo Bore. It's a relatively new loading that I believe is a Walmart contract (and perhaps unique to Walmart) cartridge. I've been using it for the past several months, and its been reliable and decently accurate, although the Federal Champion brass-cased stuff (which uses larger primers) seems to be a tad more accurate.

My intention at this point will be to have this Buffalo Bore 230gr JHP as my primary/initial chambered and carry load for my trip, where it can perform double-duty as both 2-legged and 4-legged potential predators. Given my research and everyone's input (which I'm very appreciative of the microscope the forum participants have put this discussion thread under), I think it'll suffice. Back-up will be Remington Golden Saber 230 gr and Federal Hydra Shok 230gr, both standard pressure loads.

Best, Jon

[jh9]

And in the case of the Buffalo Bore JHP load, you may not know what particular bullet you're getting.

IMO problems of some of the boutique ammo makers offerings include - sometimes using inferior bullets for the particular application (such as Montana Gold), driving good bullets too fast, and often an outrageous price.

Yeah. I don't want to use "bait and switch" but I bought some BB .357 ammo from midway back during the First Obama Panic of 2008, and midway used stock photos of Gold Dot bullets. The actual delivered product was Montana Gold bullets.

Too many "boutique" manufacturers use bullets interchangeably. So long as they're the same weight they're the same, right?

Ugh.

[Jeep]

They can be, or skinny meth/crack heads, which is why ammo needs to be "general purpose".

Yes, it has to be a compromise. I'm wondering, though, whether overall the bad guys are getting bigger and thus the compromise number should start going up. I don't have any idea what the data say, or if there is any useful data on the subject. I have always been comfortable with 12 inches of penetration in the past, but are the numbers of giant economy sized thugs increasing to the point there is a reasonable chance it might not be enough?