View Full Version : 9mm gel test: Underwood 115 gr Lehigh Extreme Penetrator (and S&B 115 gr FMJ)
Andrew Wiggin
03-24-2015, 11:07 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3rSZAsDqgM
Underwood 115 gr Lehigh Extreme Penetrator solid copper projectile fired from Glock 22 with Lone Wolf 9mm conversion barrel into calibrated 10% gelatin.
BB: 585.3 fps, 3.3"
Impact velocity: 1,289 fps
Penetration: ~30" of gelatin & 2.5 feet
of water
Retained weight: 115.0 gr
No expansion.
For comparison, we took a look at some cheap 9mm ball. The cheapest I could find was S&B 115 gr FMJ. It was almost exactly 100 fps slower and penetrated quite a bit less. I expected lower velocity and less penetration but not to that degree. It was also surprising to see that plain, vanilla FMJ produced more tissue disruption than the vaunted Extreme Penetrator.
On my way out to test, I looked at my phone and saw that tnoutdoors9 had posted a video testing the very thing I was about to do. I was not thrilled, especially since he does such great work. It turns out that my test was a little different than his anyway. Take a look at his test too, if you have time. (https://youtu.be/DYLbmSp5itA)
Chuck Haggard
03-24-2015, 11:54 AM
The FMJ bullet clearly yawed, which is common for RN FMJ 9mms bullets to do.
GJM - your big bear loads! Tell me that won't crack a bruin's brain pan. ;)
I think these sound mighty interesting. Their .380 seems to test extremely deep also. Specialized purpose? Sure.
Andrew: Another nice test--thanks much for doing this.
Chuck: If the military is stuck with non-expanding rounds, might this X shaped pattern have some advantages? I don't know about cavitation etc., but it strikes me that the X might make a better cutting pattern than a round nosed bullet (assuming it feeds fine). My guess is that you wouldn't need to machine a decent X bullet, but could make one relatively cheaply using a copper jacket with a lead core.
You can cold form copper into lots of shapes. A portrait of Lincoln, for a far-fetched example.
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Chuck Haggard
03-24-2015, 12:39 PM
That bullet would seem to have more ability to stick on an angled or hard target, wadcutter-ish like.
Interesting!
Check out their site for the .40 load too. Sounds like a beast.
Also I don't think one is limited to Underwood. I take it Lehigh makes their own ammunition as well. https://www.lehighdefense.com/collections/ammo/handgun
It's not $2/round either. Just premium priced.
Andrew Wiggin
03-24-2015, 02:45 PM
Check out their site for the .40 load too. Sounds like a beast.
Also I don't think one is limited to Underwood. I take it Lehigh makes their own ammunition as well. https://www.lehighdefense.com/collections/ammo/handgun
It's not $2/round either. Just premium priced.
That's correct. Tnoutdoors9 tested the Lehigh load.
I tested the 10mm load a while back.
This is the most interesting development on the "penetrate the bear skull" front, I have seen in years. I find it interesting that the PF isn't crazy on each of the loads, which makes me believe it may be more in the reliability envelope for service pistols than some of the "hot and heavy" loads.
Chuck Haggard
03-24-2015, 03:37 PM
You mean a hard edged wadcutter-ish non-expanding bullet will penetrate? When did that happen?
Trooper224
03-24-2015, 03:37 PM
MAC did a test of the same manufacturer/design in .380.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PDQcE-1T40
The penetration results here aren't totally crazy. I wonder if this would be more viable for self defense than the 9mm load?
You mean a hard edged wadcutter-ish non-expanding bullet will penetrate? When did that happen?
The hard part to date, has been finding the "hard edged wadctter-ish non expanding" option," made with a bullet of the proper material and shape, in a loading in 9, 40 and 10mm that functions reliably.
Chuck Haggard
03-24-2015, 03:47 PM
The hard part to date, has been finding the "hard edged wadctter-ish non expanding" option," made with a bullet of the proper material and shape, in a loading in 9, 40 and 10mm that functions reliably.
Yup, I get it
MAC did a test of the same manufacturer/design in .380.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PDQcE-1T40
The penetration results here aren't totally crazy. I wonder if this would be more viable for self defense than the 9mm load?
On the G42 thread on Lightfighter a G42 owner reported he carries the Lehigh in his after running a pretty good number through it to gauge functioning. IMO that's the approach to take with .380. Just penetrate. First time Chuck mentioned the Win FP .380 load I found some for ours and my daughter in law's.
I've always associated Lehigh with snake oil, but this stuff might just have a niche. I wonder if they'll do a .38 load...
Andrew Wiggin
03-25-2015, 12:29 PM
I'm not all that interested in their EP projectiles, unless I end up SCUBA diving in shark infested waters, bit I might be interested in testing a solid copper wad cutter. Maybe even one with a wide, shallow cavity. That might perform
pretty well in .38 spl.
Chuck Haggard
03-25-2015, 12:40 PM
I'm not all that interested in their EP projectiles, unless I end up SCUBA diving in shark infested waters, bit I might be interested in testing a solid copper wad cutter. Maybe even one with a wide, shallow cavity. That might perform
pretty well in .38 spl.
The world has been needing a .38 solid copper WC with a cupped face for years, preferably one in 130gr loaded to mimic the ballistics of cheap 130gr FMJ ammo
I'm not all that interested in their EP projectiles, unless I end up SCUBA diving in shark infested waters, bit I might be interested in testing a solid copper wad cutter. Maybe even one with a wide, shallow cavity. That might perform
pretty well in .38 spl.
In the service pistol calibers, there are so many solid choices for civilian self defense that the specialty penetrators are especially interesting to me. But that's a narrow niche for sure.
okie john
03-25-2015, 12:55 PM
That bullet would seem to have more ability to stick on an angled or hard target, wadcutter-ish like.
Reminds me of the Pin Grabber design, but FMJ. Very interesting...
Okie John
Who wants to volunteer to shoot a bear with this load in a Glock 19 this summer? Not me.
okie john
03-25-2015, 01:09 PM
I wonder what the implications of this load are for the .380 ACP. Does it turn the G42 into a more viable choice?
Okie John
Chuck Haggard
03-25-2015, 01:53 PM
I wonder what the implications of this load are for the .380 ACP. Does it turn the G42 into a more viable choice?
Okie John
It certainly gives the .380 barrier penetration that it doesn't normally have. Will this make the .380 more effective on unobstructed shots against bad guys? I doubt it outside of an extreme case.
Who wants to volunteer to shoot a bear with this load in a Glock 19 this summer? Not me.
I may put myself in that position. Hate the legal bits though. ;)
TiroFijo
03-25-2015, 03:19 PM
I would like to see a comparison with a flat point FMJ bullet of the same weight and velocity... actually a normal lead core FMJ (even with a relatively thick jacket) would likely give a bit more velocity than this all copper round, at the same pressure. The all copper bullets can be harder to extrude into the rifling (depending on alloy and hardness) and are less dense than lead core bullets taking up more space in the case for the same weight.
There are also european 9 mm loads with heavy jackets than likely penetrate very well due to the hard point, but in this case the extra penetration would be noticed specially when the bullet hits heavy bones.
I would like to see a comparison with a flat point FMJ bullet of the same weight and velocity... actually a normal lead core FMJ (even with a relatively thick jacket) would likely give a bit more velocity than this all copper round, at the same pressure. The all copper bullets can be harder to extrude into the rifling (depending on alloy and hardness) and are less dense than lead core bullets taking up more space in the case for the same weight.
There are also european 9 mm loads with heavy jackets than likely penetrate very well due to the hard point, but in this case the extra penetration would be noticed specially when the bullet hits heavy bones.
Re Euro rounds, might that be S&B? Prvi? Geco? I was just shooting some S&B 140 gr .357 Sig and hit seemed hotter than some US ammo I've shot.
I'm surprised the ATF hasn't come down on these. Don't solid copper bullets count as AP?
TiroFijo
03-25-2015, 05:09 PM
Not really super hot loaded, but hard noses. Something like the swedish M39/B, military load or the danish equivalent (not my pictures):
http://i.imgur.com/q6nr3DB.jpg
https://i2.wp.com/i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv276/Damott/ms/Bild007.jpg
L-R: S&B 9mm High Performance, Norma 9mm Index 211, M/39B Military, full live M/39B
http://i699.photobucket.com/albums/vv360/wolfganggross/cutaway%2012/cutaway82911025.jpg
I have never fired one of these rounds, reportedly they lower the barrel life by 25% or more.
Would these rounds be classified as AP in the USA? What about monolithic copper bullets like the Lehigh?
Chuck Haggard
03-25-2015, 05:46 PM
The Swedish 9mm ammo, and the Norma import stuff, is classified as AP. Solid copper bullets are not.
TiroFijo
03-25-2015, 10:04 PM
I guess the law is the law, and it does not have to follow any reason or logic... :D
I guess the law is the law, and it does not have to follow any reason or logic... :D
I don't know about Paraguay but I can tell you that is certainly the case in the US. Our gun laws are written by people who know nothing about the subject except what they see in movies.
TiroFijo
03-26-2015, 09:19 AM
Sadly, this is case almost everywhere :(
It seems the most ignorant a lawmaker is about the subject, the most enthusiastic he is to pass some nonsense/utopic/delirious legislation on it.
Andrew Wiggin
03-26-2015, 10:25 AM
Gots to stop shoulder things, especially the ones that go up.
In this case there doesn't actually appear to be any adherence to the law, just arbitrary rulings by unaccountable bureaucrats. I'm no lawyer but it looks as though the law defines armor piercing handgun ammunition as a bullet that is made entirely of a material other than lead, though it leaves room for the BATFE to grant exceptions. That means that without an exception the Barnes TAC-XP or this Lehigh bullet would be considered AP while the foreign stuff posted earlier could not be since it has a multi-part construction. Maybe the sporting purposes clause gives them a lot of leash in this case for imports.
Chuck Haggard
03-26-2015, 01:02 PM
No, the law specifically lists what materials, and copper is not one of those. Steel, iron, bronze, and several others are listed. Specific language to catch bullets like that Swedish round, which was imported into the US for awhile, is also listed.
Tiro, while it sucks to have to live with stupid rules, I am glad you can carry in some way.
No, the law specifically lists what materials, and copper is not one of those. Steel, iron, bronze, and several others are listed. Specific language to catch bullets like that Swedish round, which was imported into the US for awhile, is also listed.
Tiro, while it sucks to have to live with stupid rules, I am glad you can carry in some way.
The law specifically mentions 'beryllium copper'. Not being a materials scientist, I'm not sure of the definition of beryllium copper versus normal copper (or whatever alloys thereof are used in Barnes TSX/TTSX and Hornady GMX bullets), but the ATF has been dicking over Barnes' solids for several years now.
Chuck Haggard
03-26-2015, 01:41 PM
It's a specific material, and ATF shouldn't be able to mess with anyone using pure copper, since what that materials is is clearly not pure copper, or other copper alloys.
http://www.nbmmetals.com/collections/beryllium-copper
Andrew Wiggin
03-26-2015, 02:48 PM
No, the law specifically lists what materials, and copper is not one of those. Steel, iron, bronze, and several others are listed. Specific language to catch bullets like that Swedish round, which was imported into the US for awhile, is also listed.
Tiro, while it sucks to have to live with stupid rules, I am glad you can carry in some way.
Well, I said I'm no lawyer. I guess I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn Express.
Per Barnes' website, they're made of "an alloy of copper and zinc", which would seem to mean brass. And brass is on the list of no-go materials. Still, the notion that a .375 H&H counts as a 'pistol' projo is ludicrous.
Andrew Wiggin
03-26-2015, 03:39 PM
I'm probably wrong again, but I was under the impression that the BATFE had the discretion to grant exceptions for bullets that had a "sporting purpose".
I'm probably wrong again, but I was under the impression that the BATFE had the discretion to grant exceptions for bullets that had a "sporting purpose".
They do. And their new 'framework' that would have banned M855 also had a rule that rifle cartridges whose primary 'handgun' launching platforms were single-shots (i.e. rifle calibers in a Contender) would have a blanket exemption.
All this penetration talk gets my blood pumping with an Alaska visit planned this summer. These Lehigh seem stout.
And in the .357 Sig (which I recently traded into - G31) plain jane FMJ like this Fiocchi FMJ just went crazy on the gel blocks - 54" http://www.handgunsmag.com/ammo/ammunition_hg_0208_01/
All this penetration talk gets my blood pumping with an Alaska visit planned this summer. These Lehigh seem stout.
And in the .357 Sig (which I recently traded into - G31) plain jane FMJ like this Fiocchi FMJ just went crazy on the gel blocks - 54" http://www.handgunsmag.com/ammo/ammunition_hg_0208_01/
The Fiocchi load is def interesting for AK!
All this penetration talk gets my blood pumping with an Alaska visit planned this summer. These Lehigh seem stout.
And in the .357 Sig (which I recently traded into - G31) plain jane FMJ like this Fiocchi FMJ just went crazy on the gel blocks - 54" http://www.handgunsmag.com/ammo/ammunition_hg_0208_01/
Sometimes Fiocchi ammo seems not to be consistently loaded, though. Might be a good idea to test a bunch of rounds from each box before carrying it.
Sometimes Fiocchi ammo seems not to be consistently loaded, though. Might be a good idea to test a bunch of rounds from each box before carrying it.
In what way, so I know what to look for?
Chuck Haggard
03-27-2015, 09:05 PM
In what way, so I know what to look for?
Tam just had a bunch of squibs from them in 9mm. Velocity seems to be hit and miss with them as well, sometimes high, sometimes low
Andrew Wiggin
03-27-2015, 10:44 PM
Sorry to pile on, but it's also important to remember that FMJ sometimes yaws (as in the 9mm test in the OP) and sometimes does not. If it yaws, the penetration will be a lot less.
Sometimes Fiocchi ammo seems not to be consistently loaded, though. Might be a good idea to test a bunch of rounds from each box before carrying it.
+1 I was just shooting the S&B 140 gr fmj flatpoint. Felt very hot. It's the genre if not Fiocchi soley.
Chuck Haggard
03-28-2015, 06:32 AM
Sorry to pile on, but it's also important to remember that FMJ sometimes yaws (as in the 9mm test in the OP) and sometimes does not. If it yaws, the penetration will be a lot less.
RN FMJ is vastly more likely to yaw than FP FMJ. The stability of FP bullets is one reason why they penetrate so well. Even if a RN bullet doesn't yaw sideways and flip over a 180, they still tend to fishtail (for want of a better word) throughout the time in target, which cuts penetration quite a bit.
On bears my one worry with using such ammo would be hitting bone, those bullets, while they penetrate soft tissue or gel like crazy, likely are no more robust than any other 9mm sized FMJ bullet.
Palmguy
03-28-2015, 07:58 AM
I'm surprised the ATF hasn't come down on these. Don't solid copper bullets count as AP?
At least as far as the composition is concerned, pure copper is ok, it's beryllium copper that is prohibited. Of course M855 doesnt meet the standard either by my reading..........
Andrew Wiggin
03-28-2015, 09:15 AM
Thanks, Chuck. Makes sense.
In what way, so I know what to look for?
Like Chuck says, sometimes you get boxes that seem pretty hot (generally Fiocchi used to be always pretty hot in my experience), and sometimes it feels like it was loaded by Wolf--you are lucky the slide operates. However, I haven't seen it vary all that much within a box, so if you test a bunch for each box and they seem ok you are probably good to go.
+1 I was just shooting the S&B 140 gr fmj flatpoint. Felt very hot. It's the genre if not Fiocchi solely.
Yes. My guess (and it is only a guess) is that they cranked up their production for the 2013 ammo shortage and QC was compromised.
The good news is that with both metals prices and the Euro coming down, European ammo is about to get even cheaper in the US. Quality might not be great, but I think there is a decent chance that non-Russian 9mm will be available at less than $200 per 1000 again at SGammo within 6 months or so.
PPGMD
03-28-2015, 12:38 PM
MAC did a test of the same manufacturer/design in .380.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PDQcE-1T40
The penetration results here aren't totally crazy. I wonder if this would be more viable for self defense than the 9mm load?
So did Shooting the Bull 410
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LczfeWK9lHw
The conclusion is pretty much if you can't carrying hollow points, this might be good option for 380.
It seems that doesn't apply to the 9mm round. I was hoping that it might be a solution for SF and NJ folks.
Andrew Wiggin
03-28-2015, 12:49 PM
I'm certainly no expert, hopefully Doc can chime in, but I'm reasonably confident that the .380 results are just showing a little extra TSC and that the actual wound would be no larger than FMJ.
PPGMD
03-28-2015, 01:13 PM
I'm certainly no expert, hopefully Doc can chime in, but I'm reasonably confident that the .380 results are just showing a little extra TSC and that the actual wound would be no larger than FMJ.
When the other choices are way over penetrating FMJ and under penetrating EFMJ. Which would you choose based on the ShootingtheBull, and MAC tests?
With .380 I care not for wound channel dia. Just go deep.
Andrew Wiggin
03-28-2015, 01:24 PM
When the other choices are way over penetrating FMJ and under penetrating EFMJ. Which would you choose based on the ShootingtheBull, and MAC tests?
Hard to say. I don't own a .380. I guess I'd probably just choose the heaviest (longest) FMJ I could find and hope for yaw. It's real hard to justify a .380 pistol with so many good 9mm choices available today.
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