RO/SO epic FAIL!

[JodyH]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUzTIKAbI3k

[Jay Cunningham]

Very realistic 3D target!

[Failure2Stop]

Very realistic 3D target!
That's very clearly a dynamic 3-D no-shoot.

Do you even hands-up no-shoot bro?

[Jay Cunningham]

I've been through enough FoF to know that you just shoot everything.

[JodyH]

There are no innocent "no shoots" , just unindicted co-conspirators that needed shooting.

[JDM]

There are no innocent "no shoots" , just unindicted co-conspirators that needed shooting.

Hilarious.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Folks still picking up brass with as gunfire resounds - well, do they deserve it? I don't know how many times we have to almost grab this sort of person from in front of the firing line.

This is the International Darwn Pistol Match?

[nycnoob]

Folks still picking up brass with as gunfire resounds

I think they are taping targets. I can see the tape trailing in the hands and they are focused on the cardboard not the ground.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Could be. I thought the trailing tape was a brass picker upper.

Any case, at the matches I go to, folks would have been screaming from the get-go to stop.

[nycnoob]

To me the most interesting part of the video is the total confusion for all participants. Lots of "Hey, whats going on?",
of course the "what is going on" is very clear, but there is not one "cease fire!" either by the participants or the SO.

[TheRoland]

I think they are taping targets. I can see the tape trailing in the hands and they are focused on the cardboard not the ground.

Not that it makes a huge difference, but there appears to be a bag of brass in the other hand, and had his back to the targets when you first see him. An oblivious brass-rat.

[ToddG]

Based on gear and targets, it's a USPSA match, not an IDPA match. I don't know why that matters but since the chance to malign IDPA seemed evident, neener neener.

At the end of the day, this is the RO's fault. Yes, everyone is responsible for safety. Yes, the brass rat should have been paying attention ... it's his life on the line, for goodness sake. Yes, the competitor should have been aware of what was happening downrange. But the RO is there to maintain safety and allowing a stage to begin without verifying the downrange area is clear of bipedal mammals is a cardinal offense. He should have his NROI credentials pulled and be forced to go back through training before running a range again.

[Trooper224]

That's a bunch of extremely lucky people right there. I think several just cashed in their "one free pass" cards.

[JR1572]

Wow. I would be cursing people out.

JR1572

[TAZ]

To me the most interesting part of the video is the total confusion for all participants. Lots of "Hey, whats going on?",
of course the "what is going on" is very clear, but there is not one "cease fire!" either by the participants or the SO.

Thankfully the most important person executed a cease fire.

Man, that sure is scary. Damned lucky that nobody got hurt or killed. Ive only shot small local matches where the stages aren't as complicated with barriers and stuff, so I can't really relate to not being able to see the whole stage before starting. Do RO/SO as larger matches work in pairs; one prepping the next competitor while the one that just got done running the shooter makes sure the range is clear on his way back?

[Totem Polar]

Thankfully the most important person executed a cease fire.

Man, that sure is scary.
That, and that.


That's a bunch of extremely lucky people right there. I think several just cashed in their "one free pass" cards.
And this.

It's gotten to the point where I'm so far beyond disliking public ranges that I've moved my flinty cynic's eye on to organized classes and match courses as the new den of public derp. I just don't trust anyone anymore.


Upon a couple more viewings, one can see that when he engages his 7th (I think) target, right before hitting #8 and passing through the first white screens, his rounds are kicking up dust from the berm right in front of where "no-shoot guy" is standing. Damn, dudes.

Also, I think everyone is just damn lucky that he hit slide lock and got a look around before completing that speed reload. Guardian Angels coinciding with magazine capacity, FTW.

[rob_s]

I think I see our own GJM's name on the scores for this club with the RO. Maybe he has the backstory?

Internet rumor is that the RO... isn't one.

http://www.havasupractical.com/webscore/show_scores.php?match=scores/LBA150321.txt

[RJ]

On the incident: Wow. Just wow. It is hard to believe how lucky these folks are no one was shot or killed.


But the RO is there to maintain safety and allowing a stage to begin without verifying the downrange area is clear of bipedal mammals is a cardinal offense. He should have his NROI credentials pulled and be forced to go back through training before running a range again.

Reference the RO retraining, would it be an overreaction by the Club / Facility President to shut down all competition at this range until each and every participant received retraining on range safety? This seems like a complete failure in every respect, from those directing the match and participants, those directed to tape targets (or whatever they were doing), the RO?

I mean, as a future competitor at where ever this took place, I'd want some assurance that steps were taken so that this NEVER EVER happened again.

[Mike R]

On the incident: Wow. Just wow. It is hard to believe how lucky these folks are no one was shot or killed.



Reference the RO retraining, would it be an overreaction by the Club / Facility President to shut down all competition at this range until each and every participant received retraining on range safety? This seems like a complete failure in every respect, from those directing the match and participants, those directed to tape targets (or whatever they were doing), the RO?

I mean, as a future competitor at where ever this took place, I'd want some assurance that steps were taken so that this NEVER EVER happened again.

Yes, it would be.

I wouldn't throw the MD and "participants" under the bus. #1 is RO, #2 is Mr. Noshoot. I don't know if it is being double plugged, or listening to music, or just being that intent on brass but that is no bueno. I'm no code red situational awareness gunfighter guy, but being oblivious to the buzzer, not to mention someone shooting a stage- is a pretty serious failure. Just being downrange and seeing nobody else around me would be a warning to me, and if I was downrange and heard a buzzer I would be screaming stop with everything my lungs could muster.

Constantly shooing the brass rats to back behind the firing line is annoying. Shoot the stage, then pick up brass after. Next squad can walkthrough or whatever... but don't hold the match up in between shooters on your squad for a few cents worth of metal. Doubly so if you aren't pulling your weight with the taping.

[BaiHu]

Holy fracking sh*t snacks. I hope that's the scariest, luckiest, craziest moment of all of their collective lives that gives them a wake up call to never eff with Mr Murphy again. Wow!

[DocGKR]

"I think I see our own GJM's name on the scores for this club with the RO. Maybe he has the backstory?"

Oh yes indeed, I believe he has quite a bit of information about this.

[Chris Rhines]

He should have his NROI credentials pulled and be forced to go back through training before running a range again.If this was a club level match, there's a better than even chance that the RO has no creds to pull. Most likely he was just a volunteer running the timer. RO training and certification is only required at major matches.

When I did my NROI training back a million years ago, one of the things that they emphasized is that the RO should be the last man off the stage. It's not a rule (a rule that you can't enforce is just advice) but it is a good habit to maintain when you're running a timer. Failing to do this was probably the first link in this incident.

[JHC]

I'm not that wild about elaborate stages with props that so channel visibility myself.

[Chris Rhines]

...but there is not one "cease fire!" either by the participants or the SO.That's mainly because 'Cease fire!' is not used as a range command in USPSA. The equivalent command is 'Stop!', which was called by several people.

[rob_s]

When I did my NROI training back a million years ago, one of the things that they emphasized is that the RO should be the last man off the stage. It's not a rule (a rule that you can't enforce is just advice) but it is a good habit to maintain when you're running a timer. Failing to do this was probably the first link in this incident.

I haven't done USPSA RO school, and I let my IDPA SO creds lapse when they started requiring new certs, but I always felt like this should be addressed better.

IOM, ideally the RO/SO doesn't leave the shooting position. The Score Keeper (SK) should also be an RO/SO and should be the one walking, scoring, and sweeping up the stragglers.

I think USPSA may have codified this a little more as almost every USPSA match I've attended has had the RO walking the targets hollering out the scores to the SK.

Something else that I've always thought would help, in both games, is to require people do X matches as an SK prior to being allowed to become an RO/SO. Of course, this assumes a willing volunteer pool, which seems to be dwindling more each year.

[SteveK]

I'm not that wild about elaborate stages with props that so channel visibility myself.

^^^This.

[RJ]

Yes, it would be.

I wouldn't throw the MD and "participants" under the bus. #1 is RO, #2 is Mr. Noshoot. I don't know if it is being double plugged, or listening to music, or just being that intent on brass but that is no bueno. I'm no code red situational awareness gunfighter guy, but being oblivious to the buzzer, not to mention someone shooting a stage- is a pretty serious failure. Just being downrange and seeing nobody else around me would be a warning to me, and if I was downrange and heard a buzzer I would be screaming stop with everything my lungs could muster.

Constantly shooing the brass rats to back behind the firing line is annoying. Shoot the stage, then pick up brass after. Next squad can walkthrough or whatever... but don't hold the match up in between shooters on your squad for a few cents worth of metal. Doubly so if you aren't pulling your weight with the taping.

Gotcha. Appreciate that my perspective is as a prospective USPSA shooter, with 0 experience.

I get that the sport has a great safety record, and that this is maybe a case of a couple of individuals that need to take personal responsibility for their actions. But I guess I'm saying that it seems odd that one would not look at the incident in it's entirety, not to assign blame/extract a sanction, but to ensure it never happens again.



Say I'm on the BOD at my gun club, and a USPSA event is proposed. The night before the BOD meeting I see this video. The following questions might come up:

How is it that participants are allowed to pick up brass between competitors? (Shouldn't this wait until the match is over?)

Why did the RO think the range was clear? (What steps in the rulebook were missed to allow this to happen? Are there any steps in the rulebook?)

What training / rules do the participants receive on the day from USPSA / the MD so that they know not to go forward of the line during a run?



Again, not trying to point fingers or just bash the participants, the MD, the club, or USPSA. I'm just saying that while a top to bottom review of this incident might be a PITA, it is far far preferable than having someone shot or killed.

[JV_]

How is it that participants are allowed to pick up brass between competitors? (Shouldn't this wait until the match is over?)

Someone may want his 9mm brass back, but not want it mixed with the brass of the guy that was shooting 9mm (Open) Major.

FWIW: When I shoot matches, I don't save my brass.

[Peally]

What a moron RO. I've had this happen before where we've had to stop a call to make ready due to people downrange. I've never had a problem getting my sorry ass to CHECK THE COURSE before letting someone proceed.

[olstyn]

This video makes me even more glad than usual that my club makes it very clear in their rules that brass is to be left for those who help tear down stages after the match is over. It makes this potential safety issue impossible, makes the match run more smoothly because you're never waiting for "brass rats" to clear the range before the next shooter can go, and it means that as somebody who always helps with teardown, I go home with 2-3x as much brass as I shot almost every time. :)

Of course it's still important to verify that everybody who's pasting targets is clear, but that's usually not an issue, as all of us usually clear within a few seconds of the score keeper saying "scoring complete."

Regarding the video itself, I'm surprised that given that the RO laziness/ineptitude in question had already happened:

a) the guy downrange didn't hear the "load and make ready" and yell stop
b) when the shooter started shooting, he didn't hit the deck immediately while yelling stop

If I was the shooter, I'd be mega pissed at both the brass rat *and* the RO. The brass rat shouldn't have been there, and the RO should have ensured that the range was clear before giving the make ready command. Those two people put the shooter at risk of seriously injuring or killing the brass rat, and of course that puts the whole sport at risk. Thankfully nobody was actually harmed, but those two need a serious talking to, and then they both need to go to their rooms and think about what they've done. :(

[HCM]

Regarding the video itself, I'm surprised that given that the RO laziness/ineptitude in question had already happened:

a) the guy downrange didn't hear the "load and make ready" and yell stop
b) when the shooter started shooting, he didn't hit the deck immediately while yelling stop



This one of the reasons I prefer active hearing protection.

[rob_s]

This one of the reasons I prefer active hearing protection.

I posted this elsewhere, but I used to take my plugs out when pasting, in part so I could hear range commands better, before I got Sordins. Now I can hear BETTER than natural.

[JR1572]

What I want to know is how often stuff like this happens that we never hear about?

JR1572

[JodyH]

I'm obsessive about clearing downrange after scoring and taping.
Even after double and triple checking under, over and around barricades and props I'll yell "Going Hot!" and do the train crossing "stop, look, listen" before I start in with my shooter.
My wife (who is usually the scorer on the stages I RO) is a real ballbuster when it comes to making people reset, tape and then get out of the way so we rarely have any lolligaggers but it never hurts to triple check.

[ragnar_d]

At the end of the day, this is the RO's fault. Yes, everyone is responsible for safety. Yes, the brass rat should have been paying attention ... it's his life on the line, for goodness sake. Yes, the competitor should have been aware of what was happening downrange. But the RO is there to maintain safety and allowing a stage to begin without verifying the downrange area is clear of bipedal mammals is a cardinal offense. He should have his NROI credentials pulled and be forced to go back through training before running a range again.
Those were some of my exact thoughts as well when I first saw this video.


Do RO/SO as larger matches work in pairs; one prepping the next competitor while the one that just got done running the shooter makes sure the range is clear on his way back?
I've had it both ways. At one sectional match, I was one of 3 ROs on the stage. The HMFIC RO that ran the shooter, an RO to run the scoreboard and watch for procedurals, and a third to call the shooters up and help keep them "motivated" to help paste and reset. Another state match, I was the only RO on the stage . . . that one sucked.


If this was a club level match, there's a better than even chance that the RO has no creds to pull. Most likely he was just a volunteer running the timer. RO training and certification is only required at major matches.

When I did my NROI training back a million years ago, one of the things that they emphasized is that the RO should be the last man off the stage. It's not a rule (a rule that you can't enforce is just advice) but it is a good habit to maintain when you're running a timer. Failing to do this was probably the first link in this incident.
^^ This! My NROI Instructor made a similar point in my training and it's something I make sure to do. Every time I run a squad on a stage I make sure to be the last one off the stage after everything is pasted an reset. Takes a few extra seconds but it's a helluva lot better than having to call an ambulance because someone caught one in the chest. If something like that happened on my watch, I don't think I could stand myself.

[gringop]

When I used to SO at IDPA matches (when I used to shoot IDPA matches) I developed the habit of of starting off with, "Now that the range is clear and the targets are taped, Shooter, please face down range, Load and Make Ready!"

I did this to make myself take a final look at the range and the targets to double check that it was clear and the targets taped. I have known the heartache of turning in a smoking run on a stage only to see the last 2 targets were not taped and know I would have to reshoot the damn thing. Now, with the IDPA rule changes, people would probably bitch because it's not the "Official Start Procedure."

While I never had anything as dangerous as in the video happen, it always pissed me off when people would clown around in the stage, ie. beeping the timer, yelling stuff, talking while I am starting the shooter.

Shooting is serious bidnuss, yo.

Gringop


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AXe5lh0RPw