RDS-equipped carry pistols… what's next?

[LSP972]

This is primarily aimed at the mall ninja dentist, but others feel free to chime in with any thoughts.

Most of us who have bought into this concept are using what I would refer to as "first generation gear"; IOW, we have a holograph red dot sight perched on top of the slide of an otherwise-standard service pistol. Some use a dove-tail mount, others have a nice inlet job, etc. But my point is that we have modified the pistol to suit the optic.

Then we have the "second generation" stuff, typified by the Atom mount. We're still modifying the pistol, but taking a different approach. I.e., now we can change the optic out, easily, for another type.

S&W and FN, and now Glock, have offered pistols with optic-ready slides. Brownell's, and a few others, offer ready-cut Glock slides; you buy all the pieces/parts, put them together and install on your frame. FWIW, this is by far the least painful way to get into the game. But, other than taking the waiting for a custom slide mod out of the equation, these are just variations on an already existing theme.

So… what's the next step in the evolution? I'm thinking pistols designed around the optic. What do you think?

.

[DocGKR]

One might argue that frame mounted race pistol RDS use was more the "first generation" RDS concept, as those were used on the first RDS equipped pistols starting back in the late 1980's and now applied for combat purposes on mounts like the Geissle/ALG 6-sec.

It was not until about a decade later, in the late 1990's, when folks like Kelly McCann and Don Lazarini started mounting small RDS on pistol slides--so slide mounted RDS are probably the "second generation" of pistol mounted RDS.

As you noted, it is highly likely that the next evolution of handgun RDS will be where engineers actually design the pistol around a non-reciprocating optic; several vendors have been briefed on the topic, but none have yet publicly taken up the challenge.

[LSP552]

I'm not sure about pistols designed around the optic because of the speed technology changes compared to pistols. To be successful mainstream, optic ready pistols will have to allow mounting flexibility for different optic footprints. Your Glock 19s are a prime example. Their optics are outdated and short of a new slide, how do you upgrade? Well, consider that rhetorical, because you will just buy 2 more new ones, but the general pubic won't.

I'm desperately awaiting feedback on the new Glock mounting system. If it proves good to go, I'll have a 17 the moment they announce it. I'm about to the point where my eyes are forcing the issue.

[LSP552]

DocGKR,

That makes sense for the long-term. I was thinking in the more immediate, or incremental mode.

I'd love a concealable, non-reciprocating blaster!

[GJM]

On a carbine, both from minute one and after many rounds of experience, the RDS allows me to shoot better than iron sights. With the handgun, the RDS carries a substantial learning curve, and ultimately I can't shoot the slide mounted RDS better than iron sights. The "advance" needs to be allowing the slide mounted RDS to shoot better than iron sights, and until that happens, I don't see enthusiast shooters, without vision issues, going to the RDS.

[DocGKR]

"Their optics are outdated and short of a new slide, how do you upgrade?"

That is the advantage of something like the Unity ATOM mount, as you simply slide off the old optic, and insert the new one.

[Tamara]

The "advance" needs to be allowing the slide mounted RDS...

The advance being discussed would be a pistol deliberately designed around a non-reciprocating mount, which would obviate the problems with a slide-mounted unit. I don't think even the gamiest gamer would deny that non-reciprocating red dots are kind of a big deal, hence the separate division. ;)

ETA: In this day and age of injection-molded pistol frames, it wouldn't be a huge deal; it just remains for the first manufacturer to be willing to hold their nose and take the plunge. Please don't let it be Taurus.

[PensFan]

I have a fair amount of experience with RDS' mounted on Glocks, especially the Glock MOS guns. The MOS guns work well with a variety of RDS' out there and have tested many of the most popular ones. Thousands of rounds takes it's toll on ALL RDS systems. My advice, don't go cheap on the optic. Most reliable but still killable are the Leupold Delta Point and the Trijicon RMR. The G41 MOS kills them rather quickly btw. Probably not an issue for hunters but if you plan to pound .45ACP and 10MM (G40) rounds I hope you have deep pockets. Cheap (Meopta) died or went unreliable rather quickly. If you're on a budget the MOS is a good way to go. If $$ isn't an option, pick an optic and have the slide milled if you want to co-witness suppressor irons.

What I have run into is that mount screws Trijicon is now shipping with RMR's is a thread or two too long for the MOS plate. Either source another set of screws (I think Trijicon will replace them if you call them) or take some time with a file and rework it yourself.

Personally, I don't find any RDS system mounted directly to the slide to be worth the expense involved or 100% reliable enough for a carry gun yet. YMMV.

[DocSabo40]

I just went to Home Depot and got a couple of new screws. #6-32 x 3/8" if I recall.

[El Cid]

I'd love a concealable, non-reciprocating blaster!

Or perhaps something along the lines of the old German Luger where a portion of the slide is moving, but not the part where the optic is attached? Maybe future handguns will have reciprocating bolts inside with a fixed upper?

[1slow]

Like a Ruger .22 auto.

[LSP972]

One might argue that frame mounted race pistol RDS use was more the "first generation" RDS concept, as those were used on the first RDS equipped pistols starting back in the late 1980's and now applied for combat purposes on mounts like the Geissle/ALG 6-sec.

It was not until about a decade later, in the late 1990's, when folks like Kelly McCann and Don Lazarini started mounting small RDS on pistol slides--so slide mounted RDS are probably the "second generation" of pistol mounted RDS.
.

I get where you're coming from, but I believe MSG Bonnie Harmon of the Army MTU showed up at Camp Perry with a slide-mounted optic in the late 60s, and some others followed suit shortly.

Mssrs. McCann and Lazarini definitely got the "tactical carry" ball rolling, though.

.

[LSP972]

I'm desperately awaiting feedback on the new Glock mounting system. If it proves good to go, I'll have a 17 the moment they announce it. I'm about to the point where my eyes are forcing the issue.

Why not go the plug and play route? You may not have seen my third piece, with the Suarez slide, suppressor iron sights, and RMR... All purchased from Brownell's and put together by me. Lot less $$ than a new gun and optic. I'll have it at the range Tuesday if you want to check it out.

.

[DocGKR]

"Personally, I don't find any RDS system mounted directly to the slide to be worth the expense involved or 100% reliable enough for a carry gun yet. YMMV."

Since I have been carrying an RDS equipped pistol of some sort or another every day since 2010, I guess my mileage varies greatly.......

[zeleny]

Or perhaps something along the lines of the old German Luger where a portion of the slide is moving, but not the part where the optic is attached? Maybe future handguns will have reciprocating bolts inside with a fixed upper?The entire upper receiver assembly reciprocates on a Luger. In order not to be prohibitively girthy, a pistol fit for service with a frame mounted RDS would have to dispense with the Browning principle of embedding the breech in a reciprocating slide, e.g. by employing Pál D. Király’s lever-delayed blowback system.

[LSP972]

Your Glock 19s are a prime example. Their optics are outdated...

Outdated, but still viable. If one pukes, the JPoint is still available (what I have are Trijicon clones of the JPoint; same "footprint"); in fact, I need to buy a new JPoint to keep as a spare. Thanks for reminding me.

In your case, I don't visualize the RMR going anywhere anytime soon. That's why I bought the Brownell's package when I decided to acquire another 'system'. You just have to get past the name on the slide…

.


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[LSP552]

Why not go the plug and play route? You may not have seen my third piece, with the Suarez slide, suppressor iron sights, and RMR... All purchased from Brownell's and put together by me. Lot less $$ than a new gun and optic. I'll have it at the range Tuesday if you want to check it out.

.

I can't make Tue. but will give you a call later in the week. Thanks

[BWT]

I'm out of my lane here.

But, it seems like others indicated; a frame mounted RDS would be ideal for RDS life cycle. However, it does complicate malfunction clearing/engaging the slide with out using a smaller portion of it.

There's pro's to each. We want small light RDS but they can't take the beating long term (maybe). Again, out of my lane.

What's your guys experience with non-Led RMR's.

I would think durability would be easier to improved by ditching electrically powered illumination.

Has that been your guys experience?

I'm sure Tritium/Fiber offerings have their own issues too.

ETA: I'd imagine one handed reloads/manipulations with a frame mounted RDS are nearly impossible.

[DocGKR]

The non-LED RMR's often wash out when used with weapon lights and in certain other lighting conditions.

[BWT]

The non-LED RMR's often wash out when used with weapon lights and in certain other lighting conditions.

Ah, no free lunch.

I think as others have suggested. Something like a Ruger .22 or even a Browning buck mark with "pillars" in the middle of the slide might be an appropriate change.

It'd be ugly, and it'd need lots of work to function durably but I imagine it could be done. It'd certainly complicate disassembly.

[JSGlock34]

Let's just eliminate the reciprocating slide altogether. It'd be interesting to see MRDS technology paired with caseless ammunition. Something like the Metal Storm vLE or a fully developed HK G11PDW.

3184
3185

[MVS]

Since I have been carrying an RDS equipped pistol of some sort or another every day since 2010, I guess my mileage varies greatly.......

Same here. I have had very good luck personally. Though I don't own as many as you, the outfit I use to teach for has helped to popularize this concept so I got to see a lot of them used.

[PensFan]

Since I have been carrying an RDS equipped pistol of some sort or another every day since 2010, I guess my mileage varies greatly.......

How many rounds do you have through the optic? I killed the latest and greatest RMR in 300 rounds. Killed another in less than 200 mounted on a 10mm. They all die if you shoot them enough. None of them were originally designed for this use. Just sayin'.

[DocGKR]

We conducted a multi-year study assessing slide mounted RDS. In early 2010, six RMR02 8MOA sights with 4 digit SN’s were installed on the milled slides of four Glock 9mm’s and 2 M&P45’s. These six original RMR02’s each fired in excess of 10,000 rounds with no RDS failures. One of these RMR’s finally broke in late 2014 after firing over 15,000 rounds—Trijicon replaced the optic with a new one.

In early 2011, twelve adjustable intensity RMR-A’s (RMR06 & RMR07) were added to the testing on 9 mm Glocks and M&P45’s. Six additional RMR’s were also mounted on the slides of various other pistol types, including several .45 Auto 1911’s. All 18 of these later RMR’s had 5 digit SN’s. Several of these later RMR’s had trouble holding windage--typically moving 8-10 clicks clockwise over a few hundred rounds of shooting. Painting witness marks allowed a quick visual indicator to identify if this occurred. Nail polish was used by some shooters to lock the windage screw down. Trijicon rapidly fixed these problems. More seriously, when mounted on handgun slides, the second batch of RMR’s experienced frequent premature electronic failure. Unlike the original RMR02’s, NONE of the later RMR’s lasted beyond 5000 rounds and quite a few failed under 2000 rounds. Trijicon immediately repaired each failed optic. These repaired optics are still in use, with no further problems since Trijicon identified the failure points and instituted engineering changes to increase robustness and durability of the RMR’s in late 2013.

With the advent of reliable RMR-A's, a decision was made to standardize on the RMR06. An additional 12 RMR06’s were purchased in late 2013 and put into service on 9 mm Glocks and M&P9’s; those sights have functioned for the past 18 months without issues and without any battery changes.

Note that a G19 with RMR06 I personally use has 9080 rounds fired though it to date and is still using the original battery that was installed in October of 2013 when the sight was mounted on the slide; I also have another G19 with an RMR02 that has been in continual use since late 2010 and is still functioning without problems, although it is now on its second battery. Likewise I have a couple of M&P's with similar histories.

[LOKNLOD]

I think one of the big challenges with getting a non-reciprocating optic is to find a way to get it at the rear of the slide where it is still viable for use in a holster. The ability to use the RDS in normal concealable holsters is really what has made them viable for carry purposes.

Rather than something that mounts off the forward part of the frame like the ALG mount, it needs to mount towards the rear, like a Grip Force Adapter, or better yet, like a Crimson Trace grip works form the M&P. Imagine an M&P backstrap with a bridge that wrapped over the top of the slide to hold the RDS. If a pistol were designed ground-up with that in mind, it could really be slick.

[BWT]

I think one of the big challenges with getting a non-reciprocating optic is to find a way to get it at the rear of the slide where it is still viable for use in a holster. The ability to use the RDS in normal concealable holsters is really what has made them viable for carry purposes.

Rather than something that mounts off the forward part of the frame like the ALG mount, it needs to mount towards the rear, like a Grip Force Adapter, or better yet, like a Crimson Trace grip works form the M&P. Imagine an M&P backstrap with a bridge that wrapped over the top of the slide to hold the RDS. If a pistol were designed ground-up with that in mind, it could really be slick.

I agree but how do you manipulate the slide?

Let's be honest most guys despise Front Cocking Serrations for looks and/or muzzling their hand. I like the rear of the slide as well (ETA: for mounting optics), in theory the milled slide seems best because it allows BUIS. Which with the failure rate of Optics; is necessary. IIRC, FCS came about partially due to optics on hand guns. Now they use huge levers milled into the gun and who knows, that may be the ticket.

An ALG style mount that can host BUIS, with a lever/handle to pull/push the slide as needed.

I think there may be a need for a material solution and training solution.

The desire for smaller, lighter, more precise optics mounted on a slide is a tough nut to crack.

ETA 2: Having not used an RDS on a handgun much myself; the article also pointed out weapon balance must be considered as well.

I'm surprised the additional mass to the slide hasn't caused malfunctions/operational issues but I know if it did DocGKR would dump it fast.

Have you had to make adjustments to your shooting or noticed performance loss/changes, Doc?

[Tamara]

I agree but how do you manipulate the slide?

"I like the idea of mounting a scope on a gun, but won't the flint get sparks in your eye when it hits the frizzen?"

You're trying to shoehorn a new technology into the existing paradigm, rather than going from the ground up with a clean sheet of paper... ;)

[frozentundra]

Removed......Redundant

[LOKNLOD]

"I like the idea of mounting a scope on a gun, but won't the flint get sparks in your eye when it hits the frizzen?"

You're trying to shoehorn a new technology into the existing paradigm, rather than going from the ground up with a clean sheet of paper... ;)

This :cool:

[PensFan]

We conducted a multi-year study assessing slide mounted RDS. In early 2010, six RMR02 8MOA sights with 4 digit SN’s were installed on the milled slides of four Glock 9mm’s and 2 M&P45’s. These six original RMR02’s each fired in excess of 10,000 rounds with no RDS failures. One of these RMR’s finally broke in late 2014 after firing over 15,000 rounds—Trijicon replaced the optic with a new one.

In early 2011, twelve adjustable intensity RMR-A’s (RMR06 & RMR07) were added to the testing on 9 mm Glocks and M&P45’s. Six additional RMR’s were also mounted on the slides of various other pistol types, including several .45 Auto 1911’s. All 18 of these later RMR’s had 5 digit SN’s. Several of these later RMR’s had trouble holding windage--typically moving 8-10 clicks clockwise over a few hundred rounds of shooting. Painting witness marks allowed a quick visual indicator to identify if this occurred. Nail polish was used by some shooters to lock the windage screw down. Trijicon rapidly fixed these problems. More seriously, when mounted on handgun slides, the second batch of RMR’s experienced frequent premature electronic failure. Unlike the original RMR02’s, NONE of the later RMR’s lasted beyond 5000 rounds and quite a few failed under 2000 rounds. Trijicon immediately repaired each failed optic. These repaired optics are still in use, with no further problems since Trijicon identified the failure points and instituted engineering changes to increase robustness and durability of the RMR’s in late 2013.

With the advent of reliable RMR-A's, a decision was made to standardize on the RMR06. An additional 12 RMR06’s were purchased in late 2013 and put into service on 9 mm Glocks and M&P9’s; those sights have functioned for the past 18 months without issues and without any battery changes.

Note that a G19 with RMR06 I personally use has 9080 rounds fired though it to date and is still using the original battery that was installed in October of 2013 when the sight was mounted on the slide; I also have another G19 with an RMR02 that has been in continual use since late 2010 and is still functioning without problems, although it is now on its second battery. Likewise I have a couple of M&P's with similar histories.

Thanks for the info. Very informative. Perhaps ours were duds.

[Len McM]

Very interesting thread. One thing that I am taking away from this is that "It's the mileage, not the age" applies to these RDS's life span. These optics are judged by round counts until failure.

My only experience with a RDS on a pistol is on borrowed rimfire .22s which don't have the same recoil as a center fire pistols. I liked it. I liked it enough to consider using one on a center fire pistol. However my yearly round count outside of class time is nothing even close to the majority of shooters here. A case per year outside of classes in a good year, often less.

As I approach middle age my eyes are starting to do weird things. New glasses help, but the RDS equipped pistols helped too. I'm just trying to justify the "cost per round" for a RDS and slide. I'm debating of it is worth spending the cash for a pistol that I shoot relatively little.

I really don't have anything to contribute, but just wanted to mention that I'm enjoying the thread and discussion.

[DocGKR]

"Perhaps ours were duds."

You likely were using the second generation RMR's that had significant problems and failed early, just like ours from that generation did.

[Mercaptan]

"I like the idea of mounting a scope on a gun, but won't the flint get sparks in your eye when it hits the frizzen?"

You're trying to shoehorn a new technology into the existing paradigm, rather than going from the ground up with a clean sheet of paper... ;)

Wouldn't it be neat to have the optic sit on a mount that acts like a non-reciprocating charging handle?

If you have a malfunction or need to manipulate the slide in another way, just grab the big optic sitting there.

/random musings

[jh9]

Is the SVI sight tracker patented?

Not that I've used one, but it appears to be an ideal solution if you can expand the rib to get enough real estate for mounting a dot. It would also leave the rear of the slide free for manipulating the gun in a normal manner.

http://forums.1911forum.com/showpost.php?p=3971414&postcount=17

(3rd pic in the link.) Widen the rib, slap some pic rail on there and you've got a mount.

[HopetonBrown]

Don't think a Sight Tracker design would work as well on tilt barrel pistols like Glock.

[LSP972]

As I approach middle age my eyes are starting to do weird things.


Welcome to the club. This is why I got interested in the concept in the first place. The red dot sight is THE answer for "old man eyes". I've been toying with the system for over three years now, not really wanting to go all-in for several reasons. But I have carried and shot my three pistols enough to be satisfied that they are durable and reliable enough for EDC.

The problem with having special glasses made (did that), is that they are NOT useful for walking around/everyday business. And the whole purpose of carrying a concealed handgun is to be able to INSTANTLY respond to a deadly threat…IOW, no King's X while you dig your special shootin' glasses out and don them. Trust me… once your eyes get to the point that a good sight picture means you can barely stay on a silhouette… its time to do something.

I'm about there; the only iron-sighted pistols in my battery that I can print an acceptable-to-me group with at 25 yards and beyond are my HK P30 and HK45C, due to the HUGE dots on their issue sights. I can do barely acceptable groups with issue Glock plastic sights, but your basic Trijicon/MeproLight/etc. standard sights are just a fuzzy blur. All black sights? Forget it. In bright ambient light, fiber optic front sights are nice and I can see them… too bad that 70% of lethal force encounters take place in dim light, where these are worse than useless (unless you're using a light, which you may or may not have the luxury of).

The RDS solves all of this in fell swoop. The downside is acquisition cost and the time/ammunition needed to become familiar with it… because, make no mistake, it IS different and will require you to expend no little bit of time and effort learning its idiosyncrasies. If you haven't, I suggest you read the large thread on the topic farther back in these pages. Doc, myself, and others who have some time on the various systems give quite a bit of insight into just what to expect.

This morning was my annual retiree re-qualification for CCW recertification. I shot a Bowie Signature Special with Trijicon clone of a JPoint inlet into the slide. I had two of these built some years back, and while they are not exactly state of the current art, optic-wise, they are about the handiest carrying Glock 19s with RDS I've yet to come across. I've been carrying one of them for the past week, and shot its twin this morning. While a lot of folks commented on the nice, tight 60-shot group (fired from 25 yards to 2 yards), nobody but one of the line officers even appeared to notice that the pistol had an optic mounted.

On a relatively easy, controlled qualification course like this one, an RDS is, pure and simply, cheating. The more realistic the course of fire, the more challenging the pistol becomes to shoot… but what else is new? Nothing, of course.

Anyway, I'm sold. Actually, I have been sold for some time, but just wasn't ready to make the switch. Now I am… at the expense of taking a lot of flak from all my Glock-shooting pals who I have been ribbing about their EuroPellet combat tupperware. I carried a Glock 9mm for a long time back on the job, but have been using HK in .45 exclusively for the past eight years. Time to eat some crow… all in good fun, of course.

And it was nice not to have to drag a small bag full of lo-cap magazines around with me, and not feel some discomfort after shooting 60 rounds in about five minutes. Before anyone (mainly youngsters) scoff at that, be advised… there WILL come a point in your life- if you make it that far- when heavy caliber recoil will start to bother you. Believe it.

.

[DocGKR]

It's kind of sad really when the old guys are out shooting the younger full time folks on qualification tests--I just smile sweetly and tell them that I cheat...

[Tamara]

Don't think a Sight Tracker design would work as well on tilt barrel pistols like Glock.

As opposed to tilt-barrel pistols like an SVI 2011? ;)

Cut the slide like so and away you go...

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q125/PursuitSS/eddf44cd77c0d1f8339492810660a025.jpg (http://s135.photobucket.com/user/PursuitSS/media/eddf44cd77c0d1f8339492810660a025.jpg.html)

But why not an entirely new gun design? Why are we constrained to tilting-barrel short recoil with a reciprocating slide? How about a tube receiver with a roller-locked or -delayed bolt inside?

[LSP972]

But why not an entirely new gun design? Why are we constrained to tilting-barrel short recoil with a reciprocating slide? How about a tube receiver with a roller-locked or -delayed bolt inside?

Because Cletus and Lurlene (PERFECT name for the female of the species- kudoes to you) ain't gonna spring for what that will cost, when they can buy tupperware for five or six hundred bucks new.

Wait… judging by the Cleeti and Lurlenes infesting the HKPro board since the arrival of the VP9, you never know…


.

[LSP552]

The RDS solves all of this in fell swoop. The downside is acquisition cost and the time/ammunition needed to become familiar with it… because, make no mistake, it IS different and will require you to expend no little bit of time and effort learning its idiosyncrasies. If you haven't, I suggest you read the large thread on the topic farther back in these pages. Doc, myself, and others who have some time on the various systems give quite a bit of insight into just what to expect.

This morning was my annual retiree re-qualification for CCW recertification. I shot a Bowie Signature Special with Trijicon clone of a JPoint inlet into the slide. I had two of these built some years back, and while they are not exactly state of the current art, optic-wise, they are about the handiest carrying Glock 19s with RDS I've yet to come across. I've been carrying one of them for the past week, and shot its twin this morning. While a lot of folks commented on the nice, tight 60-shot group (fired from 25 yards to 2 yards), nobody but one of the line officers even appeared to notice that the pistol had an optic mounted.

On a relatively easy, controlled qualification course like this one, an RDS is, pure and simply, cheating. The more realistic the course of fire, the more challenging the pistol becomes to shoot… but what else is new? Nothing, of course.

.

I'm not far behind you. Trying to decide if I want to chop up my 2nd gen 19 or pick up a new 4th gen 19 and send it off. We need grab lunch next week so you can help me spend money...

The 1,000 round T&E I did with your gun last year convinced me. I was just waiting for my eyes to catch up, and they have.

[BWT]

So, getting out of the theoretical.

(Removed, I found the answer to my question about what's the preferred RDS; it appears RMR02 for Slide and T1 is not uncommon for frame)

As I sit here contemplating on changing my sight configuration yet again to aid with my own eye sight (I have corrected vision; it's not age related); as much money as this is.

It's interesting to at least learn more about.

ETA:

Tamara, I believe you're correct about a new design. I think what we're going to need for new designs is either a large military or federal police organization to put out a solicitation with a frame mounted RDS. It's just a ton of money for a company to put into something that, although it's gaining traction; I don't know that they're willing to invest the capital to engineer something entirely new (blank sheet so to speak). Browning's designs and principles are proven; it's why it's easier to just tweak it to your needs and test it thoroughly.

Also a guy with poor eye-sight could also just as easily install a Fiber Optic front sight.

What modern fixed barrel full-size autos do we have? CZ and Beretta seem to be the major players.

[JAD]

P7. I have thought about this.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BWT]

P7. I have thought about this.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

What about the infamous heat build up in the frame/slide?

I thought that too, but I also thought people may be uncomfortable with going with P7's given their price point and being out of production, etc.

[Tamara]

So, getting out of the theoretical.

The OP specifically stated:

But, other than taking the waiting for a custom slide mod out of the equation, these are just variations on an already existing theme.

So… what's the next step in the evolution? I'm thinking pistols designed around the optic. What do you think?

"Getting out of the theoretical" and into the current step of the evolution would seem to be a different topic.


What modern fixed barrel full-size autos do we have? CZ and Beretta seem to be the major players.

Neither of those guns has a fixed barrel: The CZ's are conventional Browning tilting-barrel short recoil guns, and the Beretta 9X utilizes a Walther-type toggle-block short recoil action.

[BWT]

Neither of those guns has a fixed barrel: The CZ's are conventional modified-Browning tilting-barrel short recoil guns, and the Beretta 9X utilizes a Walther-type toggle-block short recoil action.

I confused fixed with non-tilting designs. That's what I get for a quick google search.

Thanks for clearing that up.

[jh9]

But why not an entirely new gun design? Why are we constrained to tilting-barrel short recoil with a reciprocating slide? How about a tube receiver with a roller-locked or -delayed bolt inside?

I would imagine because every time a major manufacturer tries, they botch the execution so horribly that the entire industry is gun shy. :p

[DamonL]

But why not an entirely new gun design? Why are we constrained to tilting-barrel short recoil with a reciprocating slide? How about a tube receiver with a roller-locked or -delayed bolt inside?

Like an HK P9S or P7?

[LSP972]

Also a guy with poor eye-sight could also just as easily install a Fiber Optic front sight.
.


And be hosed again when the light gets dim. I had an HK USP Combat Competition with a fiber optic front sight, that was absolutely spectacular in bright ambient light. It was useless in dim light.

Mileage varies.

.

[LSP972]

We need grab lunch next week so you can help me spend money...



Yeah, lots to discuss. But I'm thinking leave that Gen 2 alone, and look for another one... or spring for the grip reduction/finger groove removal from somebody.

And hope you don't draw to an inside straight in the Gen4 G19 Trigger Sweepstakes.

You do, however, need to borrow my RMR slide for the Gen2, to help you decide on which optic.

.

[Jeep]

And be hosed again when the light gets dim. I had an HK USP Combat Competition with a fiber optic front sight, that was absolutely spectacular in bright ambient light. It was useless in dim light.

Mileage varies.

.

LSP: As another old guy, let me ask you this. I've recently got a new pair of glasses and see better than before, but my problem is less the front sight than being able to distinguish what precisely I'm seeing 25 yards away. Does the RDS allow you to focus on the target or does it merely help with seeing your own sight?

[BWT]

And be hosed again when the light gets dim. I had an HK USP Combat Competition with a fiber optic front sight, that was absolutely spectacular in bright ambient light. It was useless in dim light.

Mileage varies.

.

Correct, what I was intending was most companies may not want to stake the capital on designing an entire pistol when cheap alternatives are available for average Joe. Spending the approximate cost of your handgun again to purchase another sight might be more than most people are willing to do.

Basically, I don't know that there's a big enough market for gun manufacturers to design entirely new weapons to replace working platforms to enable the longevity of optics.

For example, Glock's release of factory RDS ready gun is definitely a step in the right direction.

However, asking them to change the design that's worked for them for 20-ish pistols and built their company, to not damage optics probably won't happen any time soon. Same story for HK and S&W.

I should've elaborated.

[LSP972]

Does the RDS allow you to focus on the target or does it merely help with seeing your own sight?

The red dot IS your "sight". Yes, you're looking THROUGH the optic, focusing on your target, and superimposing the dot (or triangle, whatever your optic has) where you want the bullet to go.

Its a total game-changer, and while it has some drawbacks, for those of us with "old man eyes"... as they saying goes here, the juice is most definitely worth the squeeze.

.

[LSP972]

Basically, I don't know that there's a big enough market for gun manufacturers to design entirely new weapons to replace working platforms to enable the longevity of optics.



Agreed... and that is why I feel reasonably certain we're not going to see anything revolutionary show up anytime soon. Most of the manufacturers are trying to out-do each other in the race to sell small "self-defense" pistols to Chip and Muffy.

.

[flyrodr]

Rarely post, but have to second what LSP972 said. At 65+, and being very near-sighted, I have glasses that correct that (with some added prism). And a second pair of glasses for shooting, with the dominant eye's lens focusing on the front sight. Works OK, but then if I'm only wearing them at the range . . .

Also, having the "correct" glasses, doesn't equate to old eyes being able to focus on the front sight, and still see the rear sight and target well enough to shoot tight groups, or to change focus quickly. I tried an RMR, and it worked so well, I got more. Yes, the initial acquisition has to be worked on (a lot) to approach the speed of iron acquisition, but the huge increase in accuracy is well worth it.

[JAD]

What about the infamous heat build up in the frame/slide?

I thought that too, but I also thought people may be uncomfortable with going with P7's given their price point and being out of production, etc.

I wasn't thinking of sticking an optic on a P7, because it would still be a P7, and they're probably not optimal defensive tools regardless of sighting system. I was thinking of a polymer framed double stack with a gas-delayed blowback (rollers freak me out; they'd probably work but I'm not smart enough) design like the P7's. The barrel would be pinned to a metal insert in the frame, and that metal insert would have an extension on which the optic would be mounted. The slide would be built around this extension -- it needs to be heavy and stuff but I'd want to get the optic as low as I could. The easy way to do that is to hang it out in front; the fact that lots of people on this forum AIWB pistols with lights mounted on them makes this not totally ridiculous, but it would make everything harder. The hard way to do it is to use the extension as a non-reciprocal portion of the slide, which bakes my noodle enough to remind me that I'm not an engineer and if it can be done it will be, and the fact that it hasn't so far suggests it's really hard.

[LSP972]

And a second pair of glasses for shooting, with the dominant eye's lens focusing on the front sight. Works OK, but then if I'm only wearing them at the range . . .

Also, having the "correct" glasses, doesn't equate to old eyes being able to focus on the front sight, and still see the rear sight and target well enough to shoot tight groups, or to change focus quickly. I tried an RMR, and it worked so well, I got more. Yes, the initial acquisition has to be worked on (a lot) to approach the speed of iron acquisition, but the huge increase in accuracy is well worth it.

And that's it, in a nutshell.

.

[punkey71]

Has anyone got their hands on a T&E Deltapoint Pro yet?




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[Seven_Sicks_Two]

I wasn't thinking of sticking an optic on a P7, because it would still be a P7, and they're probably not optimal defensive tools regardless of sighting system. I was thinking of a polymer framed double stack with a gas-delayed blowback (rollers freak me out; they'd probably work but I'm not smart enough) design like the P7's. The barrel would be pinned to a metal insert in the frame, and that metal insert would have an extension on which the optic would be mounted. The slide would be built around this extension -- it needs to be heavy and stuff but I'd want to get the optic as low as I could. The easy way to do that is to hang it out in front; the fact that lots of people on this forum AIWB pistols with lights mounted on them makes this not totally ridiculous, but it would make everything harder. The hard way to do it is to use the extension as a non-reciprocal portion of the slide, which bakes my noodle enough to remind me that I'm not an engineer and if it can be done it will be, and the fact that it hasn't so far suggests it's really hard.

Maybe a Ruger Mark-type pistol, roller-locked like a CZ 52, with oversized "wings" on the back of the bolt to allow for one-handed manipulation?

[JSGlock34]

Perhaps something along the lines of a miniturized side mounted AK optics rail on a pistol frame?

[Tom Duffy]

Rarely post, but have to second what LSP972 said. At 65+, and being very near-sighted, I have glasses that correct that (with some added prism). And a second pair of glasses for shooting, with the dominant eye's lens focusing on the front sight. Works OK, but then if I'm only wearing them at the range . . .

Also, having the "correct" glasses, doesn't equate to old eyes being able to focus on the front sight, and still see the rear sight and target well enough to shoot tight groups, or to change focus quickly. I tried an RMR, and it worked so well, I got more. Yes, the initial acquisition has to be worked on (a lot) to approach the speed of iron acquisition, but the huge increase in accuracy is well worth it.

As someone in the same boat, in terms of eyesight, I find the thought of an RMR intriguing. As someone who likes HK LEMs, not so much, since an RMR install is not a straight forward thing. I too use separate glasses for range and match shooting that let me focus on the front sight, at the expense of normal distance viewing.

Question I have is what is the RMR for? For hunting or range/match use they seem to be and ideal answer to the "old eyes" problem. But one of the strong currents in this thread is the use of the RMR for every day carry. There currently aren't many optic ready compact guns available. I'm sure the situation will resolve over time given the free market.

In the meantime, however, I've been pleasantly surprised at how accurately I can shoot with Trijicon HD sights with normal glasses out to 15 yards. The yellow dot is fuzzy but easily and quickly centered in the rear sight. The sights are much more rugged, less expensive and less bulky than an RMR. Perhaps, in conjunction with a compact laser, they would provide a good interim solution until the RMR options develop further.

[LSP972]

Tom, its all about individual ability. I too prefer the HK, and, as you note, they do not lend themselves well to RDS applications. It can be done; I had a USPc .40 so modified, but the resulting "package" was simply too bulky for my mode of IWB concealed carry. In my limited experience, Glocks and M&Ps are the best "host platforms", in terms of keeping the piece reasonably compact for CCW.

In regards to sights, the huge dots on the issue HK45/P30/VP9 sights are visible enough for me to get an adequate sight picture for distance shooting. I tried both the Trij HDs and AmeriGlo pros, and while much better than "standard" sights, they just don't give my eyes enough definition.

So, being able to shoot the pistol accurately at distance is not the reason I'm leaning toward my RDS-equipped Glocks; I can still do good work with my HK45C and P30. In fact, I can hold slightly tighter groups at 25 yards with the HK pistols, due to their better inherent accuracy. But a combination of the slightly added weight and bulk of the HK pistols, compared to the compactness of the Glock 19, is what is finally weakening my resolve. I'm not yet totally convinced; I've been carrying the G19 for about a week now, shot it for my annual retiree re-qual the other day, and am missing my HK something fierce.

This is all head games, Tom. Either gun will do what I need done... I just LIKE the HKs better. Some will no doubt scoff at that... but I'll wager YOU understand...;)

.

[DocGKR]

Just shot my carry G19 w/RDS at 50 yds--got a 90-2x shooting 10 rounds unsupported freestyle.

[DocSabo40]

I can't get those kind of hits, but I too find that the RMR is almost cheating. I just picked up a G34 MOS that I've been messing with, and head shots on IDPA targets at 25 yards at a pace of about 2 shots a second are not hard to get. I can't do anywhere near that with any iron sight that I've tried. It's a big enough difference that I'm evaluating my carry setup, and may get it milled for an RMR as well.

The only issue I'm running into is finding places to shoot. The local IDPA club won't let me shoot it there, and if I go play with the USPSA boys I'm in the open class.

[tomr]

Just shot my carry G19 w/RDS at 50 yds--got a 90-2x shooting 10 rounds unsupported freestyle.

Nice... 2 hands or one?

[DocGKR]

freestyle = 2 hands.

[flyrodr]

Question I have is what is the RMR for? For hunting or range/match use they seem to be and ideal answer to the "old eyes" problem. But one of the strong currents in this thread is the use of the RMR for every day carry. There currently aren't many optic ready compact guns available. I'm sure the situation will resolve over time given the free market.


Agree on there not being many optic-ready compacts, but there are quite a few 'smiths who mill the stock slides on compact guns and install the RMRs. Mark Housel (L&M Precision GunWorks) is only about an hour down the road from me, and does a great job of installation on a variety of brands/models. In fact, I just dropped off an M&P .22 there today (Mark had done RMR installations on these alloy-slide .22s before, and showed me how he would modify the slide). As far as concealment holsters, only a bit of work with some tin snips, a rattail file and some sandpaper "converted" a couple of my kydex holsters for the stock M&P 9c into RMR-ready holsters. And the RMR-equipped 9c conceals pretty much as well as the standard setup (which still fits securely in the modified holsters).

As has been said before, I'd expect some variation of red dots will become a fairly standard issue item on handguns. And hopefully, with some more/less standard mount, so the red dots can be changed out as technology advances.

[Drang]

Maybe a Ruger Mark-type pistol, roller-locked like a CZ 52, with oversized "wings" on the back of the bolt to allow for one-handed manipulation?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/32/Automag_44amp.jpg/300px-Automag_44amp.jpg

EDIT: No, it's not mine, but I did get to coon-finger one 'way back when...

[LSP972]

I had an original Pasadena example. After the second time it shed the magazine floorplate while shooting, leaving a pile of cartridges, springs, etc., around my feet, I decided to hell with all this. Plus, we had to make the catridge cases from cut-down .308 brass; the ammunition from Remington's mexican affiliate was extant, but unobtainium where I was at the time.

I eventually traded it for a nickled MK IV Series 70; who knew it would become a cult classic collector's piece?:(

.

[runcible]

I too prefer the HK, and, as you note, they do not lend themselves well to RDS applications. It can be done; I had a USPc .40 so modified, but the resulting "package" was simply too bulky for my mode of IWB concealed carry.


I nearly went this direction with a USP9c, but ended up demurring until the arrival of the VP9. Do you have any pictures of your USPc RDS'd up, that you'd be ok sharing?

[LSP972]

I nearly went this direction with a USP9c, but ended up demurring until the arrival of the VP9. Do you have any pictures of your USPc RDS'd up, that you'd be ok sharing?

I think so. Cannot post them here (no priviledges), but PM me a good e-mail address, and if I can find them I'll shoot 'em to you. Let me see if I've got 'em first… BRB.

.

[LSP972]

Found one. PM me your e-mail.

.

[JHC]

I want a QD mount. Just cut a Picatinny or Picatinny-lite rail in the top of the slide or cut room to mount a short plate of such and get me QD and I'll skip the suppressor sights. Right NOW I'll shoot from index as a back up and rip the failed RDS off at first opp.

If return to zero on QD sights can work at 100 yds on a rifle; a return to zero at 25 yds etc for a pistol should be no sweat. Come on Larue.

[Doug]

I want a QD mount. Just cut a Picatinny or Picatinny-lite rail in the top of the slide or cut room to mount a short plate of such and get me QD and I'll skip the suppressor sights. Right NOW I'll shoot from index as a back up and rip the failed RDS off at first opp.

If return to zero on QD sights can work at 100 yds on a rifle; a return to zero at 25 yds etc for a pistol should be no sweat. Come on Larue.

LoneWolf does that for Glock slides. They mill a pic rail section at the rear.

http://www.lonewolfdist.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=156471&CAT=10

There are two pictures of it.

http://www.lonewolfdist.com/itemmedia/10000/10000_232942.jpg

http://www.lonewolfdist.com/itemmedia/10000/10000_39736.jpg

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[JHC]

LoneWolf does that for Glock slides. They mill a pic rail section at the rear.

http://www.lonewolfdist.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=156471&CAT=10

There are two pictures of it.

http://www.lonewolfdist.com/itemmedia/10000/10000_232942.jpg

http://www.lonewolfdist.com/itemmedia/10000/10000_39736.jpg

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What are we waiting for???? Thanks doug!!!

[Chuck Whitlock]

What modern fixed barrel full-size autos do we have? CZ and Beretta seem to be the major players.


Correct, what I was intending was most companies may not want to stake the capital on designing an entire pistol when cheap alternatives are available for average Joe. Spending the approximate cost of your handgun again to purchase another sight might be more than most people are willing to do.


I wasn't thinking of sticking an optic on a P7, because it would still be a P7, and they're probably not optimal defensive tools regardless of sighting system. I was thinking of a polymer framed double stack with a gas-delayed blowback (rollers freak me out; they'd probably work but I'm not smart enough) design like the P7's. The barrel would be pinned to a metal insert in the frame, and that metal insert would have an extension on which the optic would be mounted. The slide would be built around this extension -- it needs to be heavy and stuff but I'd want to get the optic as low as I could. The easy way to do that is to hang it out in front; the fact that lots of people on this forum AIWB pistols with lights mounted on them makes this not totally ridiculous, but it would make everything harder. The hard way to do it is to use the extension as a non-reciprocal portion of the slide, which bakes my noodle enough to remind me that I'm not an engineer and if it can be done it will be, and the fact that it hasn't so far suggests it's really hard.

Unless I'm missing something, how about taking the basic Desert Eagle design and shrinking it down for standard service pistol cartridges?

http://www.magnumresearch.com/Firearms/Magnum-Research-Desert-Eagle-50-AE-Stainless.asp

[KevinB]

I've had a Delta Point Pro for about 9 months. Waiting on two more. All are going USG at this point.


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[punkey71]

Do you have a preference vs RMRs?

Pros/cons to either?


I've had a Delta Point Pro for about 9 months. Waiting on two more. All are going USG at this point.


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[KevinB]

DP Pro is ruggedized. And you can swap batteries without dismounting sight.

It's bigger - but It was designed and won a USG Duty pistol MRDS program.
Downside is those are delaying non USG sales.


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[punkey71]

Thanks. Appreciate the info.


DP Pro is ruggedized. And you can swap batteries without dismounting sight.

It's bigger - but It was designed and won a USG Duty pistol MRDS program.
Downside is those are delaying non USG sales.


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