Knife assault

[Wondering Beard]

I don't know where this is nor when it happened but there's a lot to learn.

http://fbcdn-video-j-a.akamaihd.net/hvideo-ak-xfp1/v/t42.1790-2/11036138_797317390357971_253587884_n.mp4?oh=46d3cb adf95672887572ebb2e3e8b9a4&oe=5508C37B&__gda__=1426705051_8a5e8003d9f5841012a019073069dcd 1

It takes a while to get to the assault.


Hat tip to Joe Watson, in his Facebook page.

[TAZ]

Wow. That sucked ass. What good is a gun in a locked drawer????

[Paladin]

Pretty brutal attack! Just a reminder of the savagery that still exists in the hearts of evil men and why good men and women must always remain vigilant in our pursuit of self defense through training and knowing our enviroment, oh and most important stay armed!
Rick

[SouthNarc]

There's not a gun solution to an entangled knife attack.

[Gadfly]

A gun on the body may or may not have helped. But a gun in a locked drawer may as well have been miles away.

Horrible way to go. The victim fought hard, but tragically, not hard enough. RIP.

[breakingtime91]

terrible way to go. having even a pocket knife/preferably a fixed blade would of helped.. I am really glad that I got a lot of grapple time while in the Marine Corps but this video shows me that I need to get trained up again.

[Dagga Boy]

There's not a gun solution to an entangled knife attack.

Hard to get that through most people's heads.

[breakingtime91]

Hard to get that through most people's heads.

are you still wearing a neck knife?

[Dagga Boy]

are you still wearing a neck knife?

Rarely do I not have one......and usually a couple others.

[Totem Polar]

I don't know where this is nor when it happened but there's a lot to learn.

http://fbcdn-video-j-a.akamaihd.net/hvideo-ak-xfp1/v/t42.1790-2/11036138_797317390357971_253587884_n.mp4?oh=46d3cb adf95672887572ebb2e3e8b9a4&oe=5508C37B&__gda__=1426705051_8a5e8003d9f5841012a019073069dcd 1

It takes a while to get to the assault...
Horrifying. It's stuff like that keeping me on this training path I started as a kid.

[LittleLebowski]

Damn, that is a rough video. Any background info on it yet?

[Beat Trash]

Rarely do I not have one......and usually a couple others.

Care to share your preferred neck knife brand/model?

[Byron]

Some notes on the video:

The first we see of the fight is around 2:08, when both parties come in through the office door. They are already entangled and traction is horrible.

For almost a minute, there's a mad scramble as the victim tries desperately to control the weapon of his attacker (great starting point, but he never progresses beyond it). During this entire time, both parties are in physical contact. Both parties are trying to control each other's arms, posture, and position.

Around 3:00 the attacker is able to break his weapon-arm completely free for the first time, at which point he immediately sinks a serious blow with the blade. He then uses the blade as a lever to ragdoll the guy and start working him like a sewing machine.

I'm not trying to quiz anyone or put them on the spot, but as you watch this video, ask yourself exactly when the victim could have accessed a gun or knife (had he been carrying one).

Again, the reason that the victim made it ~50 seconds before suffering the first serious wound is because he was using both arms to control/defend. It wasn't until the attacker's arm was free (for just a moment) that the knife really started finding its way deep into flesh.

Given all of this, when in the video should the victim have pulled his own weapon? Since the attacker only needed his arm free for a fraction of a second to start stabbing his opponent deeply and ragdolling him around, what would have happened if the victim had let go of an arm earlier, in an effort to draw his own weapon?

We don't have footage of how this all started. Maybe the victim had a chance to draw a weapon before this became an entangled fight. Maybe the victim was attacked without warning and we're just seeing the fight move into the office.

I can't comment on what I can't see, but in the footage itself, I just don't see any moment of opportunity to produce a weapon. A successful draw would have required the victim to achieve better control of his opponent first... which is also the best formula for defending against the knife.

Don't get me wrong: the victim is better off wielding a gun or a knife, but he needs to be able to produce it without giving up control of his attacker. Otherwise it's like taking a punch to land a punch... except you're taking a knife to the back and neck.

[breakingtime91]

There is a point after the initial stabbing that the victim is strikin back and trying to grab an object to fight with. That was where I thought a pocket knife/belt/neck knife would of been pretty handy. While not ideal and he was seriously wounded it would of given him a little more of a chance

[MGW]

So what is an appropriate COA here? Whizzer the knife arm and start with eye gouges? I can't tell if there is an escape route except through the door.

[JHC]

Some notes on the video:

The first we see of the fight is around 2:08, when both parties come in through the office door. They are already entangled and traction is horrible.

For almost a minute, there's a mad scramble as the victim tries desperately to control the weapon of his attacker (great starting point, but he never progresses beyond it). During this entire time, both parties are in physical contact. Both parties are trying to control each other's arms, posture, and position.

Around 3:00 the attacker is able to break his weapon-arm completely free for the first time, at which point he immediately sinks a serious blow with the blade. He then uses the blade as a lever to ragdoll the guy and start working him like a sewing machine.

I'm not trying to quiz anyone or put them on the spot, but as you watch this video, ask yourself exactly when the victim could have accessed a gun or knife (had he been carrying one).

Again, the reason that the victim made it ~50 seconds before suffering the first serious wound is because he was using both arms to control/defend. It wasn't until the attacker's arm was free (for just a moment) that the knife really started finding its way deep into flesh.

Given all of this, when in the video should the victim have pulled his own weapon? Since the attacker only needed his arm free for a fraction of a second to start stabbing his opponent deeply and ragdolling him around, what would have happened if the victim had let go of an arm earlier, in an effort to draw his own weapon?

We don't have footage of how this all started. Maybe the victim had a chance to draw a weapon before this became an entangled fight. Maybe the victim was attacked without warning and we're just seeing the fight move into the office.

I can't comment on what I can't see, but in the footage itself, I just don't see any moment of opportunity to produce a weapon. A successful draw would have required the victim to achieve better control of his opponent first... which is also the best formula for defending against the knife.

Don't get me wrong: the victim is better off wielding a gun or a knife, but he needs to be able to produce it without giving up control of his attacker. Otherwise it's like taking a punch to land a punch... except you're taking a knife to the back and neck.

Great analysis. For Byron and others with considerable empty hand EQC fighting knowledge - does it appear that the victim's efforts all appear to be reactive defensive vs proactive. As in he's trying to control the weapon instinctively but everything else appears "in a spirit of" reacting and waiting for the next thing to react to vs aggressively trying to gain initiative.

Not sure, that's why I'm asking.


The victim might consider he is struggling with a more experienced fighter (not unusual for victims). He might know that sooner or later he's going to loose this flailing game and take his chances with absorbing a knife wound to draw and get to blasting. Shielding the best he can with the offside arm get to shooting.

I agree with your analysis mind you. But this could not have turned out any worse for the victim. A very highly trained empty hand fighting victim is not guaranteed to come out of this uninjured by any means either.

[Byron]

Great analysis. For Byron and others with considerable empty hand EQC fighting knowledge - does it appear that the victim's efforts all appear to be reactive defensive vs proactive. As in he's trying to control the weapon instinctively but everything else appears "in a spirit of" reacting and waiting for the next thing to react to vs aggressively trying to gain initiative.
Thanks, man. Just so it's clear I'm not trying to pass myself off as something that I'm not, I don't believe that I have considerable empty hand knowledge. I've trained with some amazing guys (some of them known names, some not), but am an imbecile compared to those who truly have considerable knowledge.

I've taken a number of courses that deal with this sort of thing (just 2 examples include Craig's Edged Weapons Overview and Edge Weapons Defense at the MATC (http://byrong.com/MATC2010/MATC2010-KnifeDefense/)), so my perspective is shaped heavily by those experiences. In those courses, however, we started at low pressure and gradually ramped up to high energy and resistance. In that regard, it's satisfying to realize that you really can secure a good 2-on-1 grip and arm drag a larger dude, assuming you execute solid fundamentals. I also saw that I could get away with a lot of sloppiness when pressure was low (including drawing my own weapon when I should have been checking hands), but that drastically changed once the pressure increased. I've seen a lot of knife material sold over the years in which students do not get this kind of pressure, and therefore believe that their technique which works at 25% speed will also work at 100% speed.

I would highly recommend checking out this article and this video, both from Paul Sharp:
http://sharpdefense.me/2013/09/08/its-just-a-knife/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEvgp5TE3ak
(Also notice the cross-over with what you see in the MATC material above)

As far as the victim's efforts, they don't look very intentional (though again, I'm not an expert): more reactive, like you note. Despite the fact that he successfully gains solid wrist control a few times, he never progresses beyond that. He also controls posture a few times, but again, it looks more like panicked grabs at whatever he can hold, rather than deliberate attempts to advance the position or execute a technique.


The victim might consider he is struggling with a more experienced fighter (not unusual for victims). He might know that sooner or later he's going to loose this flailing game and take his chances with absorbing a knife wound to draw and get to blasting. Shielding the best he can with the offside arm get to shooting.

I agree with your analysis mind you. But this could not have turned out any worse for the victim. A very highly trained empty hand fighting victim is not guaranteed to come out of this uninjured by any means either.
Someone may indeed choose to eat shots if they feel it's their only way to get to their weapon, and they believe that weapon is their only way to win. But I also think there's some middle ground to be had between unarmed domination and sacrificing your body. A solid underhook or overhook might not be enough to stop the attacker outright, but it may provide just enough opportunity to draw your own weapon without completely exposing yourself to that huge wind-up.

But yes: there are absolutely no guarantees. The best fighter in the world could get shivved multiple times before he even realizes there's a weapon in play.

[SouthNarc]

There is a point after the initial stabbing that the victim is strikin back and trying to grab an object to fight with.

Difficult to do without exchanging whether the adversary is armed or unarmed.

Watch. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7MG6zfj6Hw

[Dropkick]

The victim/defender bringing another weapon into play turns a knife grappling problem into a knife + additional weapon grappling problem.
Talk about jumping out of the pot and into the fire...

[Peally]

So what is an appropriate COA here? Whizzer the knife arm and start with eye gouges? I can't tell if there is an escape route except through the door.

I think this is one of those situations where everything has gone so ass-ended at this point that you're basically screwed no matter what you do. Knife fights suck and I hope I'm never involved in anything close to one.

[Cecil Burch]

So what is an appropriate COA here? Whizzer the knife arm and start with eye gouges? I can't tell if there is an escape route except through the door.

The problem with that is it is really hard to stop the knife motion with a whizzer. Once you overwrap, you cannot pin his arm so tightly that he is unable to articulate his lower arm and wrist. Generally, the attacker has the ability to keep pumping that knife into your body. And now, depending on how you do the whizzer, he may now have a direct pipeline with the blade into your kidneys. Or worse, do the insert and pull technique.

Also, he still has his other hand free to block/intercept your eye gouges. He is not going to just let you do that and will most likely use his hand offensively as well. Perhaps even try to eye gouge the good guy.

There is no one perfect answer to what to do, contrary to the typical martial artist or combatives instructor's advice. There are a couple of decent strategies to try, but they must be worked in a FoF/sparring situation under heavy pressure to find out what is going to be the best bet in the moment.

[Chance]

I've seen a lot of knife material sold over the years in which students do not get this kind of pressure, and therefore believe that their technique which works at 25% speed will also work at 100% speed.

Great video, and this is a point a lot of "martial artists" never have sink in completely. There's so much utter BS out there that looks really cool in slow motion, but just flat won't work full blast.

[SouthNarc]

So what is an appropriate COA here? Whizzer the knife arm and start with eye gouges? I can't tell if there is an escape route except through the door.

I like and teach a 2 on 1 into one of four options:

escape
effective striking
weapons access
pinning

I teach two different two-on-ones: the split seatbelt and the baseball bat both of which can be seen around 1:34 in this vid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BT5stC-SBF0

The 2 on 1 plus dominant position is what gives one the ability to pull all four options.

[Chuck Haggard]

Craig, is that bit from ECQC or EWO?

[SouthNarc]

Both are EWO classes, one in Portland and one in Sacramento.

I don't cover any knife defense or use in ECQC but I do let guys plug their trainers into the evolutions in ECQC.

[Chuck Haggard]

Both are EWO classes, one in Portland and one in Sacramento.

I don't cover any knife defense or use in ECQC but I do let guys plug their trainers into the evolutions in ECQC.

I thought that was the case.

I needs me some training.

[SouthNarc]

I thought that was the case.

I needs me some training.

Dude you've had an open invite for a while...;)

[Chuck Haggard]

Dude you've had an open invite for a while...;)

I know!


Hoping that PA class of mine is a go. Thinking about trying to get to that EWO class Spencer posted, and this video just emphasizes to me that I haven't done any knife work since Mike Inay passed away, but I have to see an ortho ref my right knee next week, I suspect I'm going to have to get some work done.

[Cecil Burch]

I needs me some training.

We will be doing some grounded knife work in MO in May..............

[Chance]

Link isn't working anymore, at least for me. Anyone have another reference?

[TAZ]

There's not a gun solution to an entangled knife attack.

You are very correct and I was not trying to insinuate that the mere presence of a gun would have changed the end result.

No idea how the 2 became entangled so we have no clue if there was time and distance prior to entering the room where the victim could have brought their own weapon into play. There is a brief span there where the victim is able to grab a broom or something and try to fight. Would being able to access a more effective weapon instead of a broom resulted in a better outcome? Don't know, but I'm of the opinion that a gun would have been more useful than a broom; even if wildly fired in random directions (not at yourself though).

Video's like this really hit home just how unprepared most of us are. I lump myself into that category since its been a long time since my last fight. Definitely reinforces the whole figure out a way to budget some training problem.

[JHC]

No one has ever got out of an entangled knife attack with a gun? (I am not implying every person with a CCW and a SCCY 9mm is impervious to losing). If good leverage is used to open up the avenue to the gun does that count?

[SouthNarc]

No one has ever got out of an entangled knife attack with a gun? (I am not implying every person with a CCW and a SCCY 9mm is impervious to losing). If good leverage is used to open up the avenue to the gun does that count?

Anything can work or fail on a given day, true...but the higher percentage option for accessing your own pistol and not taking significant damage from the knife wounds is stabilizing the entanglement and getting out BEFORE you draw the gun. We have guys in ECQC evos who manage to get a gun out but lose position/mobility against the knifer and sit there and trade. And trading sucks in this game.

The highest percentage motor skill for getting a gun out one handed WHILE controlling a blade is the split seatbelt and that requires complete commitment and forward drive to pull off. It's doable...but not anything you're going to pull off without prior training. I can usually get at least half the class pulling it off reliably under REAL pressure within the weekend. And it changes again when shit goes horizontal.

[JHC]

Anything can work or fail on a given day, true...but the higher percentage option for accessing your own pistol and not taking significant damage from the knife wounds is stabilizing the entanglement and getting out BEFORE you draw the gun. We have guys in ECQC evos who manage to get a gun out but lose position/mobility against the knifer and sit there and trade. And trading sucks in this game.

The highest percentage motor skill for getting a gun out one handed WHILE controlling a blade is the split seatbelt and that requires complete commitment and forward drive to pull off. It's doable...but not anything you're going to pull off without prior training. I can usually get at least half the class pulling it off reliably under REAL pressure within the weekend. And it changes again when shit goes horizontal.

ROGER! Did said victim here ever get close to stabilizing?

[SouthNarc]

ROGER! Did said victim here ever get close to stabilizing?

No. He actually does pretty well at keeping his hands on the knife but ultimately he doesn't have the posture to stabilize the position. He's bending not squatting and that's why he's falling forward so much.

[JHC]

No. He actually does pretty well at keeping his hands on the knife but ultimately he doesn't have the posture to stabilize the position. He's bending not squatting and that's why he's falling forward so much.

Yes it seemed instinct attracted him to "hold" the knife hand; the rest was waiting to see if it would just "end", and reacting and reacting and reacting.

[SouthNarc]

Exactly!

[Chuck Haggard]

For some reason I'm having a flash-back to the "I'd just..." thread at TPI. I was reading commentary elsewhere ref this same video.

[Skaaphaas]

This video further brings into question my choice of shoes in the workplace. The victim had zero traction, which didn't help.

[TAZ]

This video further brings into question my choice of shoes in the workplace. The victim had zero traction, which didn't help.

You'd be surprised at how slick work surfaces and your shoes become especially at restaurants and such get during the day. I've worked a number of restaurants and most end up being skating rinks by the end of the day. Constant little spills, grease and all add up quick on both he floor and your shoes. I NEVER wore anything but good shoes that under normal conditions had great traction, but I'd still be skating at the end of shift. Walking not an issue, walking quickly doable. Running, changing directions or fighting not so much. I am honestly surprised more people aren't injured in kitchens and restaurant back areas.