If you were going to run 10k carrying rifle, pistol, ammo, how would you do it?

[littlejerry]

So I'm going to compete in a running biathlon this summer. Its a 10k trail race with 8 shooting stages. Stages are a mix of rifle and pistol from 10 to 500 yards.

I've read through the stages and determined I need ~110 rounds of rifle and ~65 rounds of pistol ammo.

The event organizer has announced a special prize for anyone who wins with a Garand. Naturally I'll be competing with a garand.

I consider myself a decent runner and am training to be a good runner. I can run a 10k now, but I want to run a 10k fast while carrying a load. This I'm not worried about. Training is easy(kinda) and I know how to do it.

What I dont know is the logistics of carrying this gear in a runner-friendly way.

I need to carry 13-14 enbloc clips and 4 glock 17 mags in a way that allows me to run 10k without it killing me. I have 6 molle garand pouches which I can mount to my competition belt, along with 4 mag pouches. I've got a GLS to hold my G19. I'm considering getting suspenders to attach to the belt. I've also got USGI 6 clip bandoleers for the garand.


Any suggestions? I haven't decided on if or how I'll carry water.

[GJM]

I competed twice in the Keneyathalon at Raton, finished top ten year one and in second place year two.

Camelbak type arrangement, as you won't want to take the time to handle water bottles. Rifle in your hand. I also carried a Glock. Ran without ear pro on so I could hear the snakes.

I have several small Eagle packs that take a bladder and have Molle in back to attach your web gear.

[RevolverRob]

Do the enblocs needs to be readily accessible? If not, I would try to stack them inside a Hill People Gear Kit Bag. Put the pistol and one or two spare magazines in the pistol pouch. Enbloc clips in the outer pockets. I bet if you pack it just right it will all fit.

http://www.hillpeoplegear.com/Products/tabid/762/Default.aspx

Bonus, with the Kit Bag all zipped up, you can run anywhere you like with all that gear, you'll just have to come up with a proxy for the rifle.

-Rob

[ranger]

Maybe look on YOUTUBE at some of the FT Benning Best Ranger competition and see how the two man teams run with their gear. When I was light Infantry, we would wear the old Load Bearing (LBE) gear and would run it up high off our hips but lower than a chest rig (this was before chest rigs were popular) when we were moving fast. Agreed on the Camelbak.

[ToddG]

Mounted to a treadmill on wheels being towed by my Jeep.

[littlejerry]

I competed twice in the Keneyathalon at Raton, finished top ten year one and in second place year two.

Camelbak type arrangement, as you won't want to take the time to handle water bottles. Rifle in your hand. I also carried a Glock. Ran without ear pro on so I could hear the snakes.

I have several small Eagle packs that take a bladder and have Molle in back to attach your web gear.

Really? No sling?

Did you run with it over your shoulder?

What about ammo? Did you take off the pack whenever you had to shoot?

[GJM]

L
Really? No sling?

Did you run with it over your shoulder?

What about ammo? Did you take off the pack whenever you had to shoot?

I had a shooting sling both years, and a bipod on my .25-06 year two (no range finder allowed and that cartridge was an advantage). I ran with the rifle in my hand, because it was much more comfortable than rubbing against me when slung. I believe year one, I pulled my pack off shooting to act as a partial rest.

[Default.mp3]

Out of curiosity, what kind of pace would you be expecting to make while carrying all that?

[PPGMD]

Mounted to a treadmill on wheels being towed by my Jeep.

I'll drive the jeep.

"I would run, but I got to drive Todd around."

[ToddG]

I'll drive the jeep.

Done, and done.

[Hambo]

If you've got a Garand and 110 rounds of .30-06, you've got no reason to run from anyone. Just saying.

If I had to do this, I'd use some kind of chest rig.

[TGS]

Maybe look on YOUTUBE at some of the FT Benning Best Ranger competition and see how the two man teams run with their gear. When I was light Infantry, we would wear the old Load Bearing (LBE) gear and would run it up high off our hips but lower than a chest rig (this was before chest rigs were popular) when we were moving fast. Agreed on the Camelbak.

Yup. My experience as well.

M16/M4 carried by the slip ring.

There is a massive difference between a purpose built rifle and sling compared to an M1 Garand with whatever sling you choose. You are NOT going to want to sling that for 10k. I have run 7 miles with a pack and M14 in vermont, too. I'll take the AR15 FoW anyday.

Check out something from blue force gear for a chest rig.

[Irelander]

http://www.hillpeoplegear.com/Products/tabid/762/Default.aspx

Bonus, with the Kit Bag all zipped up, you can run anywhere you like with all that gear, you'll just have to come up with a proxy for the rifle.

+1 for the HPG Kit Bag. I always run with mine...a Snubby original pattern KB. Even though it is smaller than the Original KB it still holds a lot of gear. I'd like to pair it with a HPG Tarahumara Pack and a runners harness for running. There are some pictures on the HPG website of an ultra marathon runner using this setup.

As far as carrying the rifle, that is a tricky one. The Garand is heavy so it won't be too fun toting it around for a 10K. Let us know what you come up with.

[GJM]

If I went with a chest rig, I would want to test and see if it interferes with prone or other shooting positions. Same if you plan on carrying the Glock AIWB.

[TGS]

If I went with a chest rig, I would want to test and see if it interferes with prone or other shooting positions. Same if you plan on carrying the Glock AIWB.

Shouldnt be too hard to accomplish. Chest rigs interfering with prone is massively overblown, IMO.

[Lost River]

Personally I would run a TT MAV, like the one shown on right, worn low, off hips.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/Sanitized051109.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/Sanitized051109.jpg.html)

Then I'd run an ultralight bare bones AR like this.


http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/0022.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/0022.jpg.html)

Remember that ounces equal pounds, and pounds equal pain.

[GJM]

Shouldnt be too hard to accomplish. Chest rigs interfering with prone is massively overblown, IMO.

Your opinion is in conflict with my experience.

[breakingtime91]

Your opinion is in conflict with my experience.

used a chest rig in combat, no complaints here. It still allows use of the mag as a makeshift bipod for more stability and in a pinch reloads can be fast as well (prefer a belt reload while in prone though)

[breakingtime91]

Personally I would run a TT MAV, like the one shown on right, worn low, off hips.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/Sanitized051109.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/Sanitized051109.jpg.html)

Then I'd run an ultralight bare bones AR like this.


http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/0022.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/0022.jpg.html)

Remember that ounces equal pounds, and pounds equal pain.


man your like the first guy I have met that likes the MAV. any thing/things you particularly like about it? When I was a boot I used to get crap talked to me because I got a plate carrier from supply right away and didn't have to suffer with the MAV like everyone else. So far the best armor carrier I have used is the Mayflower APC, I'll try to post pictures later.

[RevolverRob]

If you want a chest rig, folks do build Garand-specific chest rigs:

http://www.originalsoegear.com/products/m1-garand-chest-rig
http://olongapooutfitters.com/index.php?_a=category&cat_id=5

The trouble is, these rigs aren't super modular adding a G19 and pistol mags is going to get complicated. You could try the Olongapoo rig with the waist belt, and maybe use the Olongapoo waist belt as an inner belt for a padded Molle equipped belt, ala http://www.highspeedgear.com/hsgi/sure-grip-padded-belt-31PB.html. That gives you the padded belt to mount pistol mags and the pistol to. A Garand stock pouch (check Olongapoo) would give you 14 total enblocs, 12 on your chest rig and two on the gun. The gun mounted ones can be used for prone reloads.

The advantage to such a rig would be that enblocs are pretty flat and shouldn't interfere with prone shooting, your pistol and pistol mags will be on your belt. It will more evenly distribute weight across your body. You can stick enblocs into the stock pouch, removing weight from your chest and moving it to your hands, as you shoot down your ammo supply. That's gonna make the first quarter of the event suck the hardest, but you'll have the most energy then too.

-Rob

[GJM]

used a chest rig in combat, no complaints here. It still allows use of the mag as a makeshift bipod for more stability and in a pinch reloads can be fast as well (prefer a belt reload while in prone though)

Unless I missed something, the OP is engaging in a running and shooting contest, using a Garand. He isn't engaging in combat, or using a long gun with a magazine to monopod off of.

Looking at the rigs on those two guys in the picture, I think it is a clue they are standing next to a vehicle.

I don't know squat about combat. Besides the Keneyathalon, which seems close to what the OP is participating in, I have considerable experience shooting from slung, prone in the hunting field. I can tell you that things on your chest, whether they be large binoculars or handguns, are a detriment to good shooting with a sling.

[Paul]

If looking tacticool isn't a requirement, I'd use a UTMB style race pack and a shoulder holster for the Glock. I'd store the rifle ammo in bandoliers and pull them out as needed. I'd try to keep any unnecessary weight, and especially uneven weight, off of my hips and legs since it can have profound effects on gate and stride and cause all sorts of problems.

Personally I'd rather spend an extra minute at the beginning of a stage to catch my breath and pull extra ammo out of the pack, than carry it on my chest for the entire race. Regardless of how you carry ammo, a little breather at the beginning of a stage is time well spent.

If you can't run with your rifle, get a 3' PVC pipe and put about 10 pounds of sand in it, so you can have the experience of running with a rifle without having to run in public with a rifle.

[breakingtime91]

Unless I missed something, the OP is engaging in a running and shooting contest, using a Garand. He isn't engaging in combat, or using a long gun with a magazine to monopod off of.

Looking at the rigs on those two guys in the picture, I think it is a clue they are standing next to a vehicle.

I don't know squat about combat. Besides the Keneyathalon, which seems close to what the OP is participating in, I have considerable experience shooting from slung, prone in the hunting field. I can tell you that things on your chest, whether they be large binoculars or handguns, are a detriment to good shooting with a sling.

Okie dokie.

[Lost River]

man your like the first guy I have met that likes the MAV. any thing/things you particularly like about it? When I was a boot I used to get crap talked to me because I got a plate carrier from supply right away and didn't have to suffer with the MAV like everyone else. So far the best armor carrier I have used is the Mayflower APC, I'll try to post pictures later.

I like that I can quickly adapt to ever changing missions. Sometimes I'd be wearing a carrier, sometimes not. Sometimes I would just have a first line belt, which was mainly Glock and mags, tq, Leatherman GPS and radio.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/SanitizedSR25Quals.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/SanitizedSR25Quals.jpg.html)

Due to ever changing roles, I could quickly adapt, wearing it over a carrier, or under a cover garment.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/LEE24SASspoof.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/LEE24SASspoof.jpg.html)

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/PSD09.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/PSD09.jpg.html)

If I was primarily doing just one type of job, like dismounted patrol, or convoy security, I might have opted for something different. The flexibility to quickly adapt made it a practical choice.

[TGS]

Unless I missed something.

Unless I missed something, there's no reason to be a douche over it. What you have found is that your singular experience as 1 person did not work well with a chest rig, if you tried one. That does not mean it won't work well for others, so there's no reason to get righteous about it and tell us we have to be wrong because it didnt work for you.

And, while this might come as a shock to you, a good part of training for Marines and Rangers might involve running long distances with gear, sprinting, and then shooting at targets a few hundred meters away from prone.I know.....mind blowing.

[1slow]

I have not run a lot with rifle and gear but from the little I have done some general thoughts. YMMV.

Gear must not flop and swing around. This eats energy and beats on you. There is a tradeoff between having your load too tight constricting your movement and having it flop around
No gear on your legs or in leg pockets. Takes energy to move it. In particular no holsters, sub-loads strapped to your legs.
As much as possible balance the load right to left and front to back so that you are not straining to stand and move correctly.

As to specifics:
I have found IWB holsters to rub on 5K runs and 20+ mile walks. I have found running with AIWB to be more uncomfortable than 3:00 IWB.
For me 3:00- 4:00 OWB holster with spare mag pouches at 8:00 balances out OK.

I wonder how the Biathalon backpack sling would work for this. Running is somewhat more jarring than cross country skiing.

[breakingtime91]

Unless I missed something, there's no reason to be a douche over it. What you have found is that your singular experience as 1 person did not work well with a chest rig, if you tried one. That does not mean it won't work well for others, so there's no reason to get righteous about it and tell us we have to be wrong because it didnt work for you.

And, while this might come as a shock to you, a good part of training for Marines and Rangers might involve running long distances with gear, sprinting, and then shooting at targets a few hundred meters away from prone.I know.....mind blowing.

Thanks, said what I didn't have time to

[MDS]

I'll second the HPG tarahumara+kit bag for running with a small load. The rig keeps bouncing to a minimum and lets you balance weight in front and behind - I find a pure chest rig makes my lower back uncomfortable after a while, though maybe that's just cause I'm old and fat and weak and maybe for a 10K it's not that big a deal anyway. I don't race, just some jogging in the woods, so there may be considerations I'm missing.

I've never run any real distance with a rifle, but I can imagine it's non-trivial to get the bouncing under control with a sling. One of those scabbard packs might work. Purely theoretical thought, but carrying the rifle in hand seems convenient and even with a heavier rifle seems very doable for a 10K...but I'd want to consider the effects of muscle fatigue on my shooting. Keeping my arms rested might be well worth the extra time to unsling or unscabbard the rifle at the shooting stations.

I'm very curious about what you come up with and how it goes for you!

[DamonL]

Here is some info on a Biathalon Sling. I have no experience with it, but it is another way to carry the rifle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1cUOMIzG3Y

[breakingtime91]

I like that I can quickly adapt to ever changing missions. Sometimes I'd be wearing a carrier, sometimes not. Sometimes I would just have a first line belt, which was mainly Glock and mags, tq, Leatherman GPS and radio.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/SanitizedSR25Quals.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/SanitizedSR25Quals.jpg.html)

Due to ever changing roles, I could quickly adapt, wearing it over a carrier, or under a cover garment.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/LEE24SASspoof.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/LEE24SASspoof.jpg.html)

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/PSD09.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/PSD09.jpg.html)

If I was primarily doing just one type of job, like dismounted patrol, or convoy security, I might have opted for something different. The flexibility to quickly adapt made it a practical choice.

Makes complete sense. Thanks for sharing

[GJM]

This is what I said.


If I went with a chest rig, I would want to test and see if it interferes with prone or other shooting positions. Same if you plan on carrying the Glock AIWB.


Can someone post a picture of what shooting prone looks like with one of these chest rigs pictured above in this thread, using a shooting sling?

[breakingtime91]

This is what I said.




Can someone post a picture of what shooting prone looks like with one of these chest rigs pictured above in this thread, using a shooting sling?

Sorry I don't use a shooting sling and didn't know it was Needed. Same reason we no longer use parade slings when qualifying with rifle in the marine corps, atleast my unit didnt

[breakingtime91]

3170
more modern version of what I used. Mayflower APC with what I consider a minimal chest rig the HSP D3. I run in this often and have no complaints.


*not sure how to spin the image lol

[PPGMD]

Ok, I only dabble in the super tactical side. I should mention that these hardcore super running tactical matches will likely have prone and other BS involved.

Anyways once you decide on the basic idea of what you are going to run. Here is an idea of how to carry the enbloc clips:
http://www.originalsoegear.com/collections/magazine-pouches/products/pull-out-garand-tray

These only fit in triple magazine pouches loaded, but if you only load one side they should fit in a double. I remember that be suggested running a little shock cord to be run through the drainage hole of the pouch back when they were custom, but I can't see how to do that on the production item. At least if you want to keep the pull tab up.

He also makes a full rig, but those are pretty custom, and pricey. The above can be used to adapt an AR rig, so you can use it for other stuff. But here a link anyways.

http://www.originalsoegear.com/products/m1-garand-chest-rig

[Hambo]

If you want a chest rig, folks do build Garand-specific chest rigs:

http://www.originalsoegear.com/products/m1-garand-chest-rig
http://olongapooutfitters.com/index.php?_a=category&cat_id=5

The trouble is, these rigs aren't super modular adding a G19 and pistol mags is going to get complicated. You could try the Olongapoo rig with the waist belt, and maybe use the Olongapoo waist belt as an inner belt for a padded Molle equipped belt, ala http://www.highspeedgear.com/hsgi/sure-grip-padded-belt-31PB.html. That gives you the padded belt to mount pistol mags and the pistol to. A Garand stock pouch (check Olongapoo) would give you 14 total enblocs, 12 on your chest rig and two on the gun. The gun mounted ones can be used for prone reloads.

The advantage to such a rig would be that enblocs are pretty flat and shouldn't interfere with prone shooting, your pistol and pistol mags will be on your belt. It will more evenly distribute weight across your body. You can stick enblocs into the stock pouch, removing weight from your chest and moving it to your hands, as you shoot down your ammo supply. That's gonna make the first quarter of the event suck the hardest, but you'll have the most energy then too.

-Rob

That's what I'm talking about, for the en bloc clips anyway. I could deal with the pistol on a belt.

I know jack shit about biathlon other than seeing it during the Olympics, but they do keep loading and shooting time to a minimum. Presuming the OP has to carry an empty rifle, I like the idea of these type of chest pouches for quick access to ammo.

[littlejerry]

Wow, lots of responses. Thanks for all of the feedback. Let me try and answer some questions:

-I'm just a mortal civilian who happens to like shooting and running. My approach to this isn't uber-tactical as I won't be getting shot at.

- I'd like to keep gear to a minimum both from a weight and cost standpoint. This is purely for sport. I'm not terribly interested in dropping $500 on gear in addition to the ammo, travel, admission, and training expense.

- I'm more concerned with the speed of my run than the speed of reloading. The way scoring is done I think the running time is critical and can make up for less than perfect shooting.

- I admittely haven't run with a chest rig, but the idea of it seems awful. The last thing I want is a big thick pad strapped to my chest while running in the summer.

- thanks for the PVC pipe suggestion. I'll be doing some trail running this weekend. Looks like Ill need to go to the hardware store!

- I've got a tarhumara pack already. I may try combining it with a belt.

- I'll be using a GLS holster for the G19. I don't mind AIWB for running but I'd like to have a retention holster for this kind of event.

- The biathlon along looks awesome! I definitely need a different sling. The leather M1907 sling doesn't really work for running...

-I want at least 4 clips readily accessible while shooting. 32 rounds should cover any stage.

I think that's all for now. I'm going to experiment some this week.

[SLG]

I've run more than 10 miles at a time with full kit and a rifle, more times than I prefer. I hate running. Never used a Garand:-) With an M4, I found a Vtac sling to work really well cross body, so that that gun was on my left side, muzzle down. I then tightened the sling as much as I could and held the forend with my left hand. Wasn't as easy as just running, but it worked well enough. The helmet on the other hand... When the gun became unbearable, I could switch it to the other side. Not super tactical, but it worked well enough.

FWIW, I too liked the MAV, circa 2003, and used it a lot on my first tour. Never since, but gear has come a long way, and pretty quickly.

I love the HPG Kitbags, but I too don't like to run with a big pad on my chest. An old school vest, like this copy,https://www.galaxyarmynavy.com/item-fo-65-24.asp works pretty well. I also prefer an ALICE pack when slinging a rifle. I know, I'm weird.

Best advice is to experiment on your runs and figure out what works best for you.

[Slavex]

I've been trying to find pics that Henning Walgren posted years ago from a multi gun event. He had a vest that had the rifle mags available from pouches on the back. It was a great looking setup, and for prone shooting it was awesome. Sadly I can't find that pic now.

[Hambo]

- I'm more concerned with the speed of my run than the speed of reloading. The way scoring is done I think the running time is critical and can make up for less than perfect shooting.

-I want at least 4 clips readily accessible while shooting. 32 rounds should cover any stage.


Like any shooting game you need to know how it's scored. 175 rounds could add up to minutes of penalty time.

How will you restock your four clips accessible clips after shooting? Again, that's time that adds up.

[ToddG]

I've run more than 10 miles at a time with full kit and a rifle...

I publicly call you out as a liar and a scoundrel. Video (from start to finish) or it didn't happen!

I, too, have run more than 10 yards in my full kit without a rifle and will, for the sake of fairness, provide a video of same. Asthmatic collapse at end included.

[littlejerry]

Like any shooting game you need to know how it's scored. 175 rounds could add up to minutes of penalty time.

How will you restock your four clips accessible clips after shooting? Again, that's time that adds up.

I'm basing this off of the stage descriptions of the previous events:
Most stages have a max time limit; engage all targets within x minutes or DQ/ zero out the stage.
There event score is an equal weight of running and shooting scores.
The shooting score has a ceiling; I.e. there is a 100% score multiple people can obtain.
The running score has no floor. Fastest time sets the 100% mark and everyone is scored relative.

If I or someone else crushes the running we'll have a big advantage. If you shoot 100% I think its likely many other people will as well, and then it comes down to your run time.


There is some downtime before and after stages. When you arrive at a stage they start a timer for your downtime while you get briefed or wait on another shooter. This time is recorded and doesn't count against you. There is time after a stage to debrief, get scored, collect mags, etc. Not a lot of time but enough to shift ammo from a readily accessible pouch on a backpack to a pouch on your belt.

[GJM]

Is this a variant of the Keneyathalon?

[littlejerry]

Is this a variant of the Keneyathalon?

Dont know. Not familiar with the Kenyathalon.

It is the Oklahoma Run N Gun.

[imp1295]

As said previously. There are many options but a few things I've learned over the last 23 years and having had to run pretty good clips with LBE, rifle, pack etc.

Keep things off of your hips. Drop legs, first line padded belts, etc. They suck, they will chafe the hell out of you and you will hate yourself.

Kit on the front of your body can interfere with prone if you go with a plate, double stack mag carrier, radio etc. This doesn't sound like you. I prefere a single layer of stuff this days and just go all round to the back with it. Like others have said, you will have to try it out.

With a Garand, no experience so I won't offer any advice. But, I've done some running with a M14 like this and you will end up carrying it in one hand at the balance point. more often then not. So, if you want to use a shooting sling (ching sling) go for it. I don't think it will be much help on the movement.

I agree with the example of Best Ranger. I eventually ended up settling on this with things around my sternum level. Just need to keep bulky stuff off the sides or you'll walk around like you have ILS (Imanginary Lat Syndrome).

Good luck, sounds fun.

[littlejerry]

Some updates:

The official Summer 2015 stage descriptions are up. Minimum round count + my conservative margin has me at 12+ enbloc clips and 5 glock 17 mags.

The month of March got away from me due to business travel. I just started running with weight this past week. This includes trail runs with a HPG Tara pack loaded with bricks and/or a 45 inch PVC pipe filled with concrete.

Running with the bricks SUCKS. One good uphill section kills my pace for the rest of the run. I'm having to get better at throttling back so I don't burn out fast. I'm also experimenting with how I pack the bricks. If they sit too low they pinch my lower back and bounce too much during the run.

Carrying the pipe isn't as bad as I thought it would be. GJM was spot on- carry it with one hand near the balance point. It doesn't slow me down much.

So far I've maxed out at 3.5 miles with weight. I'm working to increase my overall weekly mileage up to 25-30 miles before July. That should give me the endurance boost I need for a 6 mile run with weight.

[Jeep]

Some updates:

The official Summer 2015 stage descriptions are up. Minimum round count + my conservative margin has me at 12+ enbloc clips and 5 glock 17 mags.

The month of March got away from me due to business travel. I just started running with weight this past week. This includes trail runs with a HPG Tara pack loaded with bricks and/or a 45 inch PVC pipe filled with concrete.

Running with the bricks SUCKS. One good uphill section kills my pace for the rest of the run. I'm having to get better at throttling back so I don't burn out fast. I'm also experimenting with how I pack the bricks. If they sit too low they pinch my lower back and bounce too much during the run.

Carrying the pipe isn't as bad as I thought it would be. GJM was spot on- carry it with one hand near the balance point. It doesn't slow me down much.

So far I've maxed out at 3.5 miles with weight. I'm working to increase my overall weekly mileage up to 25-30 miles before July. That should give me the endurance boost I need for a 6 mile run with weight.

Take it real easy with those bricks. You can hurt yourself pretty badly unless you build yourself up slowly. You also might find that sandbags are softer and less likely to slam into your kidneys.

By the way, I agree with those who say that you want to experiment with gear until you find something that doesn't bang around too much. As for your rifle, I agree that carrying your rifle in your arms most of the way has a lot going for it--but I've run with an M-14 for multiple miles and by the end my arms were usually shaking--not good if you want to shoot--and an M1 is heavier. I think it is critical to find a useful sling for it (I'd also reconsider the M1 idea for this race. Running with a lightweight AR won't be easy--but it will be a lot easier).

Good luck. You're going to be sore as heck by the end of this--but if you complete it you'll be trying to decide what to run next.

[GJM]

In terms of getting ready for backpack sheep and goat hunts, I have gone back and forth as to whether or not to train with weight.

Weight helps you adapt to, well weight, but I think it is harder on me and my joints. Recently, I have chosen to just train wearing my boots, but without much weight or only using weight intermittently.

Using that approach, my experience is that day one my back feels stiff and hurts on a backpack hunt, but by two and after is fine.

(As to packing really heavy loads, like when moose hunting, it just plain hurts regardless of what I do.)

[littlejerry]

Right now I'm doing a weighted run 1 day a week(this doesn't include running with the pipe).

I've realized my road runs have been relatively flat so I need to incorporate some hills and weight.

Regarding gear I'm still experimenting. Running with the backpack sucks.

I'm leaning toward carrying 2 bandoleers(12 clips) on my shoulders and the comp belt with suspenders. The belt will have pistol + mags and 2 enbloc clips.

I saw some cool water 10oz water bottles which clip onto a 1.5-2.0 inch belt. I may try getting 2 of those.

Good idea on sandbags. I'll have to try that.

[MDS]

Check out goruck's web site for some ideas on strapping bricks or whatever in your ruck. You don't have to buy from them, but they have good ideas. And I'll second the warning about training under weight at distance. If you're getting ready for selection, sacrifice your body... But if you want to be doing this into doddering old age, listen to the oldsters who advise prudence. I wouldn't say you're overdoing it now, just be a little paranoid about stepping it up.... Good luck and keep us informed!

[SamAdams]

This is why I have lots if 20-something nephews - so they can haul all the heavy stuff

[BehindBlueI's]

I don't know the best way to do it. I know how I did it. Many years and many pounds ago, I was in the squad that took 2nd in Ft. Riley's Run, Blast, and Shoot competition. We used standard GI web gear of the time (circa 1997-ish), ALICE pack, and you ran with your assigned weapon, in BDU's, with a 25 lb pack. You ran 30km total.

What I learned is a sling is great. I was a SAW gunner, and its a fairly heavy firearm. I liked being able to hold it in my arms for awhile, than let my shoulders take the load then lift it with my arms, then back to the shoulders. Despite me having the heavier weapon, I seemed to do better than most of the M-16 folks. YMMV. Better equipment may exist. Etc. etc.

[Malamute]

Right now I'm doing a weighted run 1 day a week(this doesn't include running with the pipe).

Good idea on sandbags. I'll have to try that.

A while back I was thinking of getting back in shape for some backpacking. I thought packing water, either in a large jug or smaller ones would be good for practice carrying weight. I'd have lots of water handy,...and if I got tired of it, just dumping it out to finish a practice hike wasnt an issue.

[littlejerry]

Training update:

I'm 1.5 months from the run and I've made the decision to ditch the Garand in favor of the an AR15. I took the Garand to an outlaw 3-gun match and it was... humbling. The short range stages were not particularly difficult. The real challenge was shooting from barricades at distance. The LOP is not forgiving of awkward positions and neither is the recoil. Goofy stances what work with 5.56 simply dont with a .30-06 and stock designed in the 30's.

On top of that I've been less than impressed with the accuracy I'm getting from the rifle on a bench. I could solve these issues with some stock work and tuning the rifle but I don't have the time or confidence that I'll be successful.

Plan now is to use my only AR: A 20" Colt A2 with collapsible stock. I'm also rethinking gear selection and will probably go with a chest rig. Looking at affordable options right now. Not crazy about spending $200 on a piece of gear I will only use for this event(and any future biathlons...). Need to find a chest right that will work well with a hydration pack. The summer heat has caused my long-run performance to suck if I don't get some water every ~3 miles.

Still debating how much ammo to carry. Somewhere in the range of 4-6 rifle mags and 3-5 pistol mags.

[Pup town]

Training update:

I'm 1.5 months from the run and I've made the decision to ditch the Garand in favor of the an AR15. I took the Garand to an outlaw 3-gun match and it was... humbling. The short range stages were not particularly difficult. The real challenge was shooting from barricades at distance. The LOP is not forgiving of awkward positions and neither is the recoil. Goofy stances what work with 5.56 simply dont with a .30-06 and stock designed in the 30's.

On top of that I've been less than impressed with the accuracy I'm getting from the rifle on a bench. I could solve these issues with some stock work and tuning the rifle but I don't have the time or confidence that I'll be successful.

Plan now is to use my only AR: A 20" Colt A2 with collapsible stock. I'm also rethinking gear selection and will probably go with a chest rig. Looking at affordable options right now. Not crazy about spending $200 on a piece of gear I will only use for this event(and any future biathlons...). Need to find a chest right that will work well with a hydration pack. The summer heat has caused my long-run performance to suck if I don't get some water every ~3 miles.

Still debating how much ammo to carry. Somewhere in the range of 4-6 rifle mags and 3-5 pistol mags.

You probably covered this, but how does the competition work once you reach the shooting portions, and how many stages are there? Do you run up then immediately gas up your weapon and start firing? Or do you check in with the RO and have some downtime before the stage starts? Is the stage itself running and gunning where you need quick access to multiple magazines during the stage?

What I'm getting at is 'How quickly do you need to access your magazines?'

If the answer is, 'I can take a few moments when I stop running and get my gear together before I shoot the stage' then I would seriously consider a purpose built running vest/pack like those used by ultrarunners or fastpackers supplemented by a AR mag holders and some pistol mags on the belt. I'd rather have comfort and speed on the 10 kilometers of running and sacrifice a little speed on the stage - depending on how it's scored. If the whole thing (running plus shooting) is simply time + penalties, then I'd definately go with a running pack. You might make up more time on the run than you'll lose accessing your ammo.

http://www.ultramarathonrunningstore.com/Running-Backpacks-Vests-Hydration-Packs-s/1817.htm

If not and you need relatively quick access to your magazines, a plain jane old school LBE would be a good compromise and a good budget alternative. For comfort, use a razor to cut the stitching and remove the padding from the shoulder straps, and replace the little clips from the suspenders to the belt with 550 cord so they don't dig into your back. Rig up some pistol mag carriers and Bob's your uncle.

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/375276581420162781/

[SLG]

I don't know the best way to do it. I know how I did it. Many years and many pounds ago, I was in the squad that took 2nd in Ft. Riley's Run, Blast, and Shoot competition. We used standard GI web gear of the time (circa 1997-ish), ALICE pack, and you ran with your assigned weapon, in BDU's, with a 25 lb pack. You ran 30km total.

What I learned is a sling is great. I was a SAW gunner, and its a fairly heavy firearm. I liked being able to hold it in my arms for awhile, than let my shoulders take the load then lift it with my arms, then back to the shoulders. Despite me having the heavier weapon, I seemed to do better than most of the M-16 folks. YMMV. Better equipment may exist. Etc. etc.

This is how I do it as well. Seems to work very well, and better than the performance I see from others doing it differently. ymmv, as your body type likely does as well.

[littlejerry]

Update- 2 weeks from the run.

I completed a 7 mile trail run with 15 lbs(sand + water) at a 17 minute pace. Middle of the day in GA, 100 degree heat index. It sucked.
This is a bit slower than my 15 minute goal. I've got one more week of hard training before I start my pre-race rest period. I'm hoping on race day I'll hit a 16 minute pace. I grossly underestimated the effects of heat and weight on my running performance. Perhaps with another 6 months of training I can get down below 15.

I'm fully comitted to the AR. I purchased some cheap China made gear(Condor) from Amazon. The gear isn't duty grade by any stretch... But it will serve well for a cheap biathlon rig.

Final loadout is:
Rifle- 20" Colt A2 with Vltor A5 stock, 6 aluminum GI mags of Wolf Gold 55gr, BFG padded sling
Pistol- Glock 19, 3 OEM 17+2 mags, freedom munitions 115gr, Safariland GLS holster.
1.5 liters of water.

I finally managed to get some practice in with the AR. Was able to do sprints then engage reduced size silhouettes at 100 yards. Harder than I expected initially but once I got the hang of breathing it wasn't bad.

My one major concern is I haven't patterned this ammo (Wolf Gold 55gr)beyond 100 yards. I may be able to get to a 300 yard range next weekend... Maybe not. I have a solid 100 yard zero with 2.5 inch 10 round groups right now.


Overall I'd say I'm about as ready as I'll get. Race day is July 18.

[SLG]

LJ,

Are you running this race or walking it? I ask in all seriousness, not trying to make fun of your conditioning in anyway. At work, we consider a 14 min mile with 45# ruck and a rifle to be the standard "rucking pace." No running. Guys who want to do well are expected to keep that pace for 25 plus miles. In order to improve the time, I run downhill, and ruck up hill. A 15# load and a rifle should give you a running pace around 10 mins. Those are work standards. In a comp, I would think guys might do a fair bit better.

[littlejerry]

LJ,

Are you running this race or walking it? I ask in all seriousness, not trying to make fun of your conditioning in anyway. At work, we consider a 14 min mile with 45# ruck and a rifle to be the standard "rucking pace." No running. Guys who want to do well are expected to keep that pace for 25 plus miles. In order to improve the time, I run downhill, and ruck up hill. A 15# load and a rifle should give you a running pace around 10 mins. Those are work standards. In a comp, I would think guys might do a fair bit better.

No offense taken. My intent is to run the sections which can be run, and walk or climb the others. There will be sections that are too hazardous to run.

My unladen 10k times are a 9 minute pace. Not fast by any stretch.

On the 7 mile "run" I quickly realized what you are suggesting: run downhill and "ruck" uphill. Frankly I was shocked by how quickly an uphill run kills my endurance with a meager 15 lbs added on.

The 17 minute pace isn't perhaps the best metric for me to go by(or maybe it is?). This was on a fairly rigorous trail which had sections requiring climbing or scrambling. Parts intersected with a mountain bike trail which included a rock garden which was far too treacherous to move quickly through. Some sections were on flat ground. Most weren't. Unfortunately its the only semi realistic run I've done so far. Everything else has been road running with a 5k trail mixed in.

The 14 minute ruck pace is a bit of an eye opener for me. I've always considered 3.5mph a quick hiking pace, which roughly is 17 min/mile. Its clear to me that I need to train with more weight as I'm just not used to it. Or perhaps I need to just go out and DO IT? I don't think I've pushed near the point of failure yet, so perhaps its a bit of a mental hold up at the moment?

Regarding the 14 minute pace, what kind of terrain? Obstacles?

[SLG]

I might have misunderstood your terrain. The 14 minute or better pace I mentioned is for a mostly road ruck. Hills for sure, but still mostly road. For the terrain you describe, slower is certain, and 17 minutes could be very good.

I will say, rucking with weight is a bit of a lost art, and there is actually technique to it. Size and strength matter, but I'm pretty small and I can hang with much bigger guys. The Brits call it Tabbing, and I think they teach it best, though I mean no disrespect to our armed forces. It has to do with how you move your hips, and where you let your weight fall.

[HCM]

I


I will say, rucking with weight is a bit of a lost art, and there is actually technique to it. Size and strength matter, but I'm pretty small and I can hang with much bigger guys. The Brits call it Tabbing, and I think they teach it best, though I mean no disrespect to our armed forces. It has to do with how you move your hips, and where you let your weight fall.

Any good references on this ?

[littlejerry]

I

Any good references on this ?
I'm interested as well.

I've definitely never hiked with 45 lbs and don't imagine I could keep that pace.

I'm interested in what kind of training regimen gets you to that level of fitness.

I'm a regular old civilian with a desk job and I'd like to challenge myself to perform to higher standards.

[SLG]

I have not done an internet search yet (on my way out), but I will see what I can find.

SF has a basic rucking program that recruiters will give anyone interested, afaik. Probably on line as well. Q course rucking prep, will probably turn up a lot.

I simply add progressively longer, heavier rucks to my existing PT. Works well for me. Never more than 14 miles or so, in training. As a point of reference, I Crossfit 4 or 5 times a week, and am 150# 5'6". I run a 8 min mile pace under perfect conditions, for 5-10 miles. I used to run a little faster, but not much.

[TGS]

I'm interested as well.

I've definitely never hiked with 45 lbs and don't imagine I could keep that pace.

I'm interested in what kind of training regimen gets you to that level of fitness.

I'm a regular old civilian with a desk job and I'd like to challenge myself to perform to higher standards.

I'm interested as well, as I've never heard of tabbing.

The pace described is a standard pace for a formation to move at in the USMC, at least. For some reason, I remember our actual pace to be at 4.5mph with a 10 minute break every 3 miles to refill canteens or fight...so it worked out to roughly 3mph all said and done. Being in shape is obviously a requisuite, but it isn't a crazy thing to attain. Start at 3 miles, progressively add terrain and/or distance. Have a rabbit or time limit that you need to keep pace with, not just a time log of how long it took you. Progressively add weight, as well...don't start off at 45lbs. Don't use over 45lbs of weight for conditioning either, as that's the point where the risk starts to outweigh the benefits.

When I finished college in Vermont with a Marine ROTC program, the conditioning hikes I did in the USMC at described pace were pretty cake in comparison (conditioning hikes, not actual hikes in field exercises with 100lbs...that fucking sucked balls). That's coming from someone who was at the low end for an officer's physical fitness with a 21-23min 3mile run time. Even after a 1.5 year recovery from an injury with a 27 min 3 mile run time, I still didn't have trouble on the hikes though they were definitely physically harder than before.

Maybe my body learned "tabbing" on its own just from doing it a lot a Vermont, I don't know.....but it's definitely technique dependent, as there were guys in way better shape than me having just as much or more trouble. I just remember opening up my step.

[Duces Tecum]

A little on rucking . . .

http://www.military.com/military-fitness/army-workouts/training-for-ruck-marches
http://news.goruck.com/category/training/

[SLG]

No idea if this is official or not, but it lays out a conservative training program that I'm sure works well. I never ruck more than twice a week in training.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGIMPODuAvM

This was interesting
http://bootcampmilitaryfitnessinstitute.com/exercises/the-loaded-march/

Small discussion on technique here.
http://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=69916.0

[SLG]

I will also add, POSE running is tremendously helpful.. Google will turn up a lot. I can "Tab" for a while, and with a certain amount of weight. Over about 45#'s though, I revert to POSE walking. I don't know if POSE walking exists, I just made it up, but I find it works well and has kept me injury free. Without it, I would never be able to run more than a few miles.

[dustyvarmint]

Fantastic thread. Thanks to OP for contributing it. I'd like to see pics of you in your kit, pics of you in action during the event and hear how it comes out.

There is a biathlon event in northern IN, I think on a monthly basis, we've been thinking about - I just despise driving through Chicago. I'd rather drive to OK. I don't think you are required to pack all the gear, though. Maybe a slightly different take?

Good luck and happy shooting,

[FOG]

Hey boys... found this thread through an internet search and decided to join in, hope you don't mind the company. I'm from Oklahoma and I'm entered in the Pawnee Run n Gun as well and thought I'd add my $.02.

littlejerry, it's cool to read through this thread and see the progression in your training, gear and weapons. Also nice to know I'm not the only idiot out there training and suffering in the hot weather. My training started in March when I found out about this event. I'm a '72 model so getting back in shape wasn't easy as it was 20 years ago. My workouts have been similar to yours except I live on a little land so I have the luxury of carring my guns on all runs.

Last Saturday I ran a total of 6.3 miles with full gear (20#) but I broke it up similar to the actual event. I ran roughly 2.3 miles, shot pistol (3 min); approx. 1 mile and shot a VTAC board (9 min); another 1 mile and shot the VTAC again (9 min); another 1 mile and shot kneeling at 175 yards (9 min) and then ran the final mile. Total run time was approx. 75 minutes and total time at the 4 shooting stages was approx. 30 minutes. The shooting stages allowed me to get my legs back under me which is what made the run time better than it should have been plus my pasture is relatively flat so that also helped with the time. My goal at the event will be 15 min/mile. This Saturday I plan to do it again and reduce the time at the shooting stages, then I'll start tapering down to race day.

If you look at the results from previous years, a 13 minute mile average wins it and that's by a pretty wide margin. To put that in perspective, the same guy that won Pawnee 2 years ago placed 2nd at the big one in Pecos so he's a pretty legit competitor. A 15-17 minute average will have you in the top 10 easy. Also, you have to consider there are two types of competitors, those that are viewing it as a tactical exercise (plate carriers, large 2-3 day packs, protective clothing, boots, etc) and those that are in the minimalist group (shorts, tank tops, small packs, usually carry mags in their pockets, trail shoes, etc.). The latter group is set up to make the run portion as easy as possible because that's the most challenging but yet they still have to shoot good. Stereotypically, the larger guys who can't run fast anyway are the ones who show up in full kit.

Best of luck to you bud and feel free to ask me any questions. I've only done one of these (6 weeks ago) but I've got some buddies that have a lot of experience so maybe I can help with your last minute preparations.

[littlejerry]

Hey boys... found this thread through an internet search and decided to join in, hope you don't mind the company. I'm from Oklahoma and I'm entered in the Pawnee Run n Gun as well and thought I'd add my $.02.

littlejerry, it's cool to read through this thread and see the progression in your training, gear and weapons. Also nice to know I'm not the only idiot out there training and suffering in the hot weather. My training started in March when I found out about this event. I'm a '72 model so getting back in shape wasn't easy as it was 20 years ago. My workouts have been similar to yours except I live on a little land so I have the luxury of carring my guns on all runs.

Last Saturday I ran a total of 6.3 miles with full gear (20#) but I broke it up similar to the actual event. I ran roughly 2.3 miles, shot pistol (3 min); approx. 1 mile and shot a VTAC board (9 min); another 1 mile and shot the VTAC again (9 min); another 1 mile and shot kneeling at 175 yards (9 min) and then ran the final mile. Total run time was approx. 75 minutes and total time at the 4 shooting stages was approx. 30 minutes. The shooting stages allowed me to get my legs back under me which is what made the run time better than it should have been plus my pasture is relatively flat so that also helped with the time. My goal at the event will be 15 min/mile. This Saturday I plan to do it again and reduce the time at the shooting stages, then I'll start tapering down to race day.

If you look at the results from previous years, a 13 minute mile average wins it and that's by a pretty wide margin. To put that in perspective, the same guy that won Pawnee 2 years ago placed 2nd at the big one in Pecos so he's a pretty legit competitor. A 15-17 minute average will have you in the top 10 easy. Also, you have to consider there are two types of competitors, those that are viewing it as a tactical exercise (plate carriers, large 2-3 day packs, protective clothing, boots, etc) and those that are in the minimalist group (shorts, tank tops, small packs, usually carry mags in their pockets, trail shoes, etc.). The latter group is set up to make the run portion as easy as possible because that's the most challenging but yet they still have to shoot good. Stereotypically, the larger guys who can't run fast anyway are the ones who show up in full kit.

Best of luck to you bud and feel free to ask me any questions. I've only done one of these (6 weeks ago) but I've got some buddies that have a lot of experience so maybe I can help with your last minute preparations.

Wow, thanks!

Just out of curiosity, how much ammo will you carry?

It sounds like you've got a great place to train for this. I'm envious! I've had to train for running and shooting separately, although I don't think its much of a problem. I've been able to do sprints at an outdoor range to get my heart rate up.

SLG thoroughly freaked me out on my physical abilities. I adjusted my schedule this week to do another weighted run. I did a 3 mile run on mountain bike trails with 25 lbs. I ran the downhills and flats, but walked the uphills. I averaged a 15 min pace.

I avoided the rock gardens and really hazardous stuff but its still a mountain bike trail; lots of hills, tight corners, and of course I had to step off and let bikes pass probably 8-10 times. I could try running on some forestry roads up north this weekend if I have time. Might give me a more comfortable time to the mil standards.

I'm excited to do the run, although I'm feeling nerves kick in already. I feel a little under gunned without optics and I'm paranoid I won't have enough ammo.

The last thing for me to do is reserve hotels. I'm trying to figure out how far I'll drive in the afternoon/evening after the race.

[FOG]

Wow, thanks!

Just out of curiosity, how much ammo will you carry?
Probably 4 M4 and 5 pistol mags. Thats subject to change, I need to check with a buddy that ran it last year.

So where are you coming from and how long of a drive is it?

[SLG]

SLG thoroughly freaked me out on my physical abilities.

Sorry, that was NOT my intent. We were picturing two different types of ground to cover.

[TGS]

Wow, thanks!

Just out of curiosity, how much ammo will you carry?

It sounds like you've got a great place to train for this. I'm envious! I've had to train for running and shooting separately, although I don't think its much of a problem. I've been able to do sprints at an outdoor range to get my heart rate up.

SLG thoroughly freaked me out on my physical abilities. I adjusted my schedule this week to do another weighted run. I did a 3 mile run on mountain bike trails with 25 lbs. I ran the downhills and flats, but walked the uphills. I averaged a 15 min pace.

I avoided the rock gardens and really hazardous stuff but its still a mountain bike trail; lots of hills, tight corners, and of course I had to step off and let bikes pass probably 8-10 times. I could try running on some forestry roads up north this weekend if I have time. Might give me a more comfortable time to the mil standards.

I'm excited to do the run, although I'm feeling nerves kick in already. I feel a little under gunned without optics and I'm paranoid I won't have enough ammo.

The last thing for me to do is reserve hotels. I'm trying to figure out how far I'll drive in the afternoon/evening after the race.

I guess you can count on it being a great learning experience!

Just take it in stride, and have fun! I'm excited for you, man. I think you'll do well.....most people probably aren't putting half the prep into this as you are!

[FOG]

I guess you can count on it being a great learning experience!

Just take it in stride, and have fun! I'm excited for you, man. I think you'll do well.....most people probably aren't putting half the prep into this as you are!
You hit the nail on the head, alot of guys aren't putting forth his effort and I assume thats why there's been alot of cancellations in the last week (good for the waiting list guys). Its also another reason you'll hear alot of guys say they're just doing it to test their gear. Thats a B.S. excuse for being unprepared IMO.

[TGS]

You hit the nail on the head, alot of guys aren't putting forth his effort and I assume thats why there's been alot of cancellations in the last week (good for the waiting list guys). Its also another reason you'll hear alot of guys say they're just doing it to test their gear. Thats a B.S. excuse for being unprepared IMO.

FOG,

Is this your first time running it as well?

I like how you broke your training up almost like a shooting version of a fartlek run. Very cool.

Oh, and welcome to the forum. I think with your apparent mindset towards training that you might stick around.

[littlejerry]

Sorry, that was NOT my intent. We were picturing two different types of ground to cover.

No, I'm glad! Its great to have a performance benchmark. Initially I was worried but I saw a dramatic pace improvement just by picking better trails. I'm curious to see where I land on roads/rolling hills to see if I drop below the 14:30 standard.

FOG, I'm driving out from North Georgia. About 12.5 hours of drive time. I'm splitting it across 2 days.

[FOG]

FOG,

Is this your first time running it as well?

I like how you broke your training up almost like a shooting version of a fartlek run. Very cool.

Oh, and welcome to the forum. I think with your apparent mindset towards training that you might stick around.
Thanks for the welcome.

Yes this is my first time at Pawnee. I did the Central Ok 5k Run n Gun on May 30.

I had to google fartlek! I like the concept.


No, I'm glad! Its great to have a performance benchmark. Initially I was worried but I saw a dramatic pace improvement just by picking better trails. I'm curious to see where I land on roads/rolling hills to see if I drop below the 14:30 standard.

FOG, I'm driving out from North Georgia. About 12.5 hours of drive time. I'm splitting it across 2 days.

Dang thats hardcore! Are you coming by yourself or bringing friends/ family? I live outside of Tulsa so if you need any advise on lodging or eats around there, let me know. Youll get a warm welcome at the event, most of the guys are cool. There was a guy from TN that did the winter version of the Pawnee run n gun.

[SLG]

LJ and FOG,

I just became free next weekend and am going to try and sign up for the event. If I get in, maybe we can all meet up.

[FOG]

Heck yeah, where are you from?

Lj, hope your workouts are going good. We've received 5" rain in the last three days and its made the runs tough. I was treading through ankle deep water for 1/2 of my 2 mile run tonite.

[SLG]

I'll be driving in Friday night from the Kansas City area. If I get in.

[SLG]

No joy. They are full up.

[littlejerry]

No joy. They are full up.

Damn! Maybe next time. If this one goes well I'll plan on the January race.

By then I'll have done some ruck training and might be able to keep up with you!

[SLG]

Damn! Maybe next time. If this one goes well I'll plan on the January race.

By then I'll have done some ruck training and might be able to keep up with you!

That would be great. Good luck next week, I'm now very jealous. Looks like a great time.

I have to say, based on watching the videos of the course, I would alter my previous recommendations about what LBE to wear. Very little ammo is really needed, and with an AR type weapon, magazines are very convenient. I would run it with just belt kit and a slung rifle. No reason to wear a chest rig of any kind, imo. No ruck needed either.

[FOG]

That would be great. Good luck next week, I'm now very jealous. Looks like a great time.

I have to say, based on watching the videos of the course, I would alter my previous recommendations about what LBE to wear. Very little ammo is really needed, and with an AR type weapon, magazines are very convenient. I would run it with just belt kit and a slung rifle. No reason to wear a chest rig of any kind, imo. No ruck needed either.
Good advice.

The biggest ammo sucker is the 500 yds target. IF a man doesnt have good DOPE or accurate holdovers for the long shot, it could make for a long stage. One guy adnitted he wasted 40 rounds there!

I ran my first run n gun with a chest rig and found it too constricting. This time im running the eberlestock gunrunner pack. Compresses down nice and makes carrying the rifle very easy. Even with a VTAC sling I never could get real comfortable running with the slung rifle.
We'll see how it goes.

[SLG]

Good advice.

The biggest ammo sucker is the 500 yds target. IF a man doesnt have good DOPE or accurate holdovers for the long shot, it could make for a long stage. One guy adnitted he wasted 40 rounds there!

I ran my first run n gun with a chest rig and found it too constricting. This time im running the eberlestock gunrunner pack. Compresses down nice and makes carrying the rifle very easy. Even with a VTAC sling I never could get real comfortable running with the slung rifle.
We'll see how it goes.

I'm very curious to hear how the gunrunner pack works for you. Please let us know when it's over.

What rifle are you using? I'm not sure mine would fit the gunrunner.

[FOG]

Just a plain AR15 carbine topped with a nikon p223 3x32 scope

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/11/ec72138fab41029aaa960e49bdc9c1f3.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/11/410d0e7adebf7fa899c33fe920028f67.jpg

[SLG]

Fits no problem? Good to know, thanks very much.

[FOG]

You bet. Turrets can hang up a bit when you do it blindly, but a little pressure and it finds it way.

You see that paracord? I just added that to hold onto while running thus keeping the bouncing to a minimum. Worked great during this mornings run.

[SLG]

Very cool. I'd love to hear a complete gear and training AAR after the event.

[FOG]

Update... Meeting little jerry in the morning so he can follow me and a buddy to the event.
Forecasted high is 99 with heat index 105 to 110 with 15-25 mph southwest winds. Winds will make the 200-500 yard stages interesting.

Should be an excellent test of mental and physical fortitude. [emoji106]

[dustyvarmint]

Update... Meeting little jerry in the morning so he can follow me and a buddy to the event.
Forecasted high is 99 with heat index 105 to 110 with 15-25 mph southwest winds. Winds will make the 200-500 yard stages interesting.

Should be an excellent test of mental and physical fortitude. [emoji106]

wishing you good luck, good skill and good mental strength. looking forward to hearing an AAR and seeing pics.

happy shooting, Jerry

[FOG]

Very cool. I'd love to hear a complete gear and training AAR after the event.

Event went well, lots of heat casualties, fortunately LJ and I weren't among them. I believe 13 out of the original 47 10k racers tapped out. We both competed in the 10k, he finished 16th overall and I finished 15th. I'll give a brief overview of what went right and wrong. Hopefully when LJ gets settled back in, he can give his thoughts. He had a later start time so his run was tougher and his wait times at the stages were long. Mine weren't long enough.

PHYSICAL TRAINING: Heavy Cardio and NO lifting. This began slowly in March and ramped us as race day approached. 90% of my runs were performed on a trail with full gear and done in the heat of the day when possible. Other cardio consisted of heavy bag training and fast roping. This routine paid off as my body was well acclimated to the conditions. I finished 9th (top 82%) in the run portion.

RUN COURSE: 4-5 miles was on a hilly gravel road and the remainder was in the woods with very rough terrain. Two man made obstacles consisted of a 30 yard uphill barb wire low crawl over a bed of freshly laid gravel. The other was a loose rope net over a creek. Around the 5 mile mark, I made a huge mistake mentally and missed a marker and ran and extra 1/2 to 3/4 mile. That easily cost me from breaking into the top 5 of the runners.

SHOOTING COURSE: The 7 stages were set up very difficult IMO. Most of the plates were either camo or dark and were hard to see costing valuable time. Magazine changes were frequent as were weapon transitions. Most stages forced you to shoot from uncomfortable positions behind, under or on top of various obstacles including a HOT asphalt shingled roof. I failed miserably on the shooting and placed 24th (39%). I believe I used about 75 rounds of rifle and 73 pistol, obviously not good.

WEAPONS: I used a Glock 17 with Warren/Sev sights that I've only had for 4 weeks, the striker fired action was tough with tiring arms, but I'll admit I'm not good with a pistol to begin with. I think I would have fared better with my Beretta PX4 Storm .40 because I'm more comfortable with the DA/SA. My AR-15 jammed on two stages, again costing me valuable time. It's a budget build and I believe I may have to upgrade for further competitions. My scope was a Nikon P223 3x32. For $150, I don't think it can be beat. Zeroed at 200, the holdovers are 400 and 600. I bracketed the 500 yard target and completed that stage in the top half of the competitors.

GEAR AND CLOTHING: I chose lightweight clothing consisting of Columbia cargo shorts, UA compression shirt, lightweight wool hiking socks, Kenetrek hiking shoes. This worked out well except for the climbing and crawling portions... my knees took a beating. The Eberlestock Gunrunner worked well for the running and climbing because the rifle was well secured in the scabbard. In between stages I often just slung the rifle allowing the barrel to cool. One big problem was access to magazines, since the Gunrunner has a small belt with few mollies, most of my magazines were stored in the side pockets and they weren't accessible enough. The waistbelt is removable so I plan to ditch it and insert a battle belt so my mags will be easier to get to. I carried a set of Stoney folding shooting sticks and only used them on one stage and to be honest, they did help on the 220 yard target but as I advanced to the 150 yard, I should have lost them and just shot offhand.

Overall it was a grueling event but an excellent test of man and gear, one that you are glad to have finished but can't wait for the next one. It was great to meet LJ and others at the event with likeminded interests. Perhaps some of you can come to the next Pawnee Run n Gun in mid January as the cold weather (relatively speaking) should make things interesting.

FOG

P.S. After my dismal pistol shooting performance, I believe I'll hang around this forum and pick up some pointers. :D

[SLG]

FOG,

Sounds like a great time, thanks for the write up. If you're ever heading up to the Kansas City area, let me know and we can do some pistol shooting. I hope to make the Jan. race.

[littlejerry]

Update: race completed! Barely.

Total 10k competitors: 48
Runners who finished: 34
My standing: 16th overall

My load out:
Colt 20" A2, no optics
180 rounds of wolf gold 55 fmj
Glock 19
57 rounds of Freedom 115gr fmj
1.5 liters of 50/50 water/Gatorade
Small pack of Gatorade energy chews
Cheap compression shirt
Condor (China) chest rig and integrated hydration pack
Arcteryx lightweight climbing pants(Awesome pants)

This was so much more difficult than I had anticipated. I went into the race confident that I'd finish and hopeful I'd finish well. The reality is that I nearly quit 2/3's of the way through and was barely able to drag myself across the finish line.

I attribute my inaccurate expectations to A) thinking I'm in better shape than I am and B) having to start the run at 12:30 during the hottest part of the day.

The heat was debilitating. It was nearly 100 degrees and there was no shade for the majority of the run. There was a strong wind which helped with the run but made some shots difficult.

The shooting took place in 2 areas: a farm where the start finish was located and a wooded area approximately 3 miles away. 4 shooting stages were located at each area and each stage had some terrain which had to be crossed to access it. The race started with about 3 miles of running before reaching the first stage. The first 4 stages were fairly close. Then another ~2.5 miles to the remaining stages with some terrain between them, then 0.5 miles to the finish.

Roughly 2/3 of the run was on dirt roads, the rest was a mix of fields, woods, creeks, and obstacles. The obstacles were:
- low crawl under barbed wire over gravel
- cross a creek and climb a bank
- cross a creek over an elevated rope net(square grid, roughly 12 in squares) and climb a bank
- carry a large 20mm ammo can full of dirt up a hill
- heavy brush in the woods

The low crawl, creek crossings, and heavy brush were all between the first 4 stages.

The start:
I started the run strong (perhaps too strong) and ran the majority of the first 3 miles. I had to walk one of the uphill sections as the heat and sun quickly got to me. I ran the downhill sections and stayed close to the edge of the road where there was occasionally a small tree providing some shade.

Stages 1-4:
By the time I arrived at the first stage I was exhausted. My shooting performance suffered( basic strong hand weak hand stage on pistol at 10 yards) but I finished.
Stage 2 was a simple rifle/pistol combo with paper targets 15 yards away.
Stage 3 was silhouettes at 200, 300, and 500 yards. You had 3 minutes to get 2 hits on each. I drilled the 200 and 300 targets with little effort. They were located down in a low area between hills while the 500 yd target was at the top of the next hill. Wind was 15-20mph. I turned my rear sight to the 500 yd mark but couldn't determine POI. At the last moment I got 1 hit on target and then the timer went off. I DQ'd that stage.
Stage 4 was a Vtac board with a plate at 50 yds, very simple. Stages 2 and 3 had lines at them which added ~20-30 minutes of waiting. This at first seemed good but I realized that it was excessive and just prolonged my exposure to heat and sun.

The run back, where it all fell apart:
I tried to start strong on the return trip. I began running the long steady uphill portion. My energy was quickly drained and I had to revert to a quick hiking pace( for me this is 3.5 mph). About 1.5 miles into the return trip I start having real issues; legs start hurting, I'm getting confused, and getting dizzy. I had carried some Gatorade energy chews which I ate at this point because I started feeling week. I finally get to a shady spot in the road and stop cool off. I started getting tunnel vision and ringing in my ears, so I took a knee. This helped briefly but the ringing came back. Eventually I ended up laying on the side of the road trying to maintain consciousness. At some point I tried to get up and briefly lost vision, so I laid back down. A second try had the same results. At this point I had accepted that I might need to ask for assistance(instant DQ) but on my third try I was able to stand up and begin walking. My pace was slow but I was at least moving. Minutes later I ran out of water. This was very concerning because I had 1.5-2 miles remaining, 4 stages, and some kind of obstacle. I pushed on and arrived at the second shooting area.


Stages 5-8:
Stage 5 involved hitting a steel plate at 200 yards from 4 positions( off a shingle roof, off a truck hood, through a chain link fence, and through a port in a barricade). Much to my amazement I shot the entire stage almost clean, dropping a single round.
Stage 6 was a simple rifle pistol combo on plates at 10-25 yards.
Stage 7 started with the obstacle of carrying the 20mm ammo can to the top of the hill. Fortunately there were 3 shooters in front of me at the top of the hill so I could rest underneath a pop up tent. I nearly threw up at the top of the hill but got on my knees and the nausea went away. During this rest I pulled the bladder out of my pack and disconnected the hose so I could get the last gulp of water from the line. It wasn't much but it helped. The stage had a single 200 yard plate which you shot from the top of the hill at the start position and the advanced on and shot at from 2-3 more positions.
Stage 8 was simple: you had 1 round to hit a head sized plate at ~ 200 yards. I missed. When I went prone my left calf went into a wild spasm/cramp. It was distracting. Bizarrely it disappeared when I stood up.

To the finish line:
The last half miles was mercifully easy. Half was uphill but it was a clear trail with no obstacles. I was nearing my limits here and started suffering from nausea again but I pushed through.

Final thoughts:
I carried way too much ammo and not enough water. Minimum round count was 60 rifle and I shot 80. Most of those extras were at 500 yards. I never touched my 3rd pistol mag. I should have carried 4 AR mags and 2 liters or more of water.

The start time really screwed me. Not only was it hot but I had eaten that morning based on a 9am start time. I snacked on nuts a d granola bars to keep food in my system but it wasn't enough apparently.

I'm shocked I placed 16th despite literally laying on the side of the road AND DQ'ing an entire stage.

The whole race was grueling but I want to do it again, and I want to do better. I found my limit but I'm not comfortable with where that limit is, so I'll spend the next 6 months training to change that.

January should be much easier in the cold, so I'm anxious to see what that is like. I think I want to do another summer run though just to have some metric for improvement.

[MDS]

Thanks for the writeup, guys. Very cool stuff!

[dustyvarmint]

Congrats to you both!

Thanks for the AARs. I need to figure out a way to train for the heat. Here in WI it is hit or miss - we still haven't had a consistent heat stretch yet this year. I know from prior marathon experience that heat is my Kryptonite. And, January is taken for the annual hog hunt in TX.

happy shooting, Jerry

[TGS]

Excellent job, both of you.

Very motivating write ups!

[SLG]

LJ, You found your performance limit but not your mental limit. Good job! It is much easier to improve physical conditioning and loadout than it is to improve mental toughness. If i were you, i would care very little about the score, and a lot about not quitting. Like FOG, if you ever make it up to the KC area and want to shoot, just let me know.

[FOG]

LJ, by the description of your symptoms, you were dangerously close to heat exhaustion/ heat stroke. I knew from asking around that most guys were taking 2-3L of water so I took 2.5 and had a little left over. Finishing the last 1/3 of the course without water took a good measure of mental fortitude for sure.

[littlejerry]

SLG, if I find myself in the Kansas area I'd love to go shooting.

FOG, thanks again for the hospitality. It was nice talking with the family before the race.

I think you would benefit greatly from attending some practical rifle and pistol matches. Shooting USPSA has done wonders for my overall skill level. I think a lot of the lessons and skills you hone in USPSA translate well to rifled even though the detailed mechanics of running a rifle may differ. I credit my USPSA gamer experience and basic Appleseed training with my good shooting scores.

I definitely needed more water. I think 2 liters might have gotten me through the event, and 2.5 or 3 would have been plenty. Next time I will definitely carry more water, less ammo, and maybe an optic.

Some other lessons learned:
- bring a chair. You may need to wait for 3 hours before staring.
- bring some shade( pop up tent)
- bring ice
- carry a rag! I saw some guys with cooling rags for their necks. Seemed to help them and I also needed something to wipe the sweat from my forehead so it didn't run into my eyes.

[Andrew E]

Congrats to you both!

Thanks for the AARs. I need to figure out a way to train for the heat. Here in WI it is hit or miss - we still haven't had a consistent heat stretch yet this year. I know from prior marathon experience that heat is my Kryptonite. And, January is taken for the annual hog hunt in TX.

happy shooting, Jerry

Vis-a-vis the heat...
I did a Police Academy finishing course a few years back in Fresno, CA, from June-August. Daily highs were usually in the 95-105 range; one week they stayed nearer 110. PT was 3-4 days per week (we'd go Mon-Fri most weeks, some weeks Mon-Sat).
Probably the best way to be able to deal with heat, for me at least, was to be in better shape than the on-paper standards called for. Meant I wasn't as close to the edge already, so I was basically able to back it off a little in the triple-digits. Helped a little.
Other useful thing was that a 2L Camelbak was mandatory equipment, and grabbing a quick sip or two from that at every opportunity was a God-send. Even so, though, most PT days all of us would have just about empty hydro bladders, and almost all of us started with them as full as possible.

But being over-prepared in cardio was probably most helpful in my case, for what that's worth.

[FOG]

If any of you are interested, the original run n gun is in Pecos, TX Sept. 19. The event is full but the waiting list is only at 5 currently.

[FOG]

I'm reviving this thread to provide an AAR on the 14th Annual Run and Gun Biathlon held in Pecos, TX on 18, 19 Sept 2016. Here's a link to the website and COF: http://pecosrunandgun.com/COF/2015-COF-final.shtml

LOCATION and GENERAL INFO: Pecos, TX is in West Texas, maybe 150 miles north of the Mexico border. Desolate country with scrub brush and fine, powder-like soil. The roundtrip was 1300+ miles. They changed the location this year to an alternate ranch so the round count and run course both got shorter. I believe there were just over 100 competitors total.

PHYSICAL TRAINING LEADING UP TO EVENT: Like before, I focused on cardio and did ZERO weight training. Run days consisted of loaded pack runs in a pasture during the heat of the day if possible. I was experiencing some aches so I limited the runs to 2 miles most of the time. Every other day I hit the heavy bag for 5 - 5 minute rounds. Heavy Cardio and NO lifting. About once a week I'd do a circuit of pull-ups, ab exercises, fast roping, etc. for about 30 minutes.

RUN COURSE: According to the producer, the length of the course was a little under 5 miles. Course was mostly flat but the deep powder made running much harder than it would have been on a hard pan soil. The thorny branches of the scrub bushes were everywhere and left several scratches on my legs. I thought this was a much easier run than the Pawnee, OK event. My conditioning allowed me to run 99% of the time. I completed the entire course (including shooting stages and 6 minutes of wait time) in 71 minutes as opposed to 150 minutes at Pawnee. I must point out that when I ran the temperature was only 90 degrees so that made it easier than the day before when the temps were around 110. Those guys had it rough.

SHOOTING COURSE: The stages were much easier than Pawnee IMO, but I still took way too long. Round count was less than 1/2 of Pawnee's. Rifle stages were between 100-200 yards and the pistol stages around 15 yards. I had been practicing unsupported shots so the rifle stages weren't too bad. They had a stage where you had to low crawl in the powder that was the cause of many malfunction stories throughout the day, especially for the guys sporting chest rigs and a few running 1911's. I cleared all the stages in 1/2 the allotted time but I imagine the guys with real game were much faster than I was. I focused on speed so I missed a lot, but follow up shots were quick. We'll see how that strategy worked when the results come in.

WEAPONS: G 17 worked out good for me, it didn't mind the dirt. I'm still not real good with it, but I'm improving. Prior to the event I bought a new Colt 7920LE and it worked flawlessly even in the dusty conditions. Best thing I did was add a Geiselle 2 stage trigger, that thing is night and day better than the mil-spec trigger. My scope was a Nikon P223 3x32, it's not the best but it gets me through. Eventually, I'll buy a good 1x4 or 1x6 scope.

GEAR AND CLOTHING: Tru-Spec tactical shorts, UA compression shirt, lightweight wool hiking socks, Kenetrek hiking shoes. Again I used the Eberlestock Gunrunner... I love this pack, makes the run so much easier. Only modification I made was to swap out the flimsy waist belt for a Hazard 4 battle belt which made it much easier to carry mags.

SUMMARY: Course wasn't easy but doable. Competition seemed to be pretty salty. For example, the guy camped beside me was active duty from Fort Campbell I believe and had been through Ranger School and was in an Airborne unit. He was tall and lean and looked like he could run like a deer. The Corp of Cadets Marksmanship Unit from Texas A&M attended as well. I didn't see a ton of pot-bellied guys there. At age 43, it's hard to compete with guys 1/2 your age but it just makes me train harder.
The event was very professionally ran, each stage had 5 RO's and wait times were minimal.
Overall it was a ton of fun. The results aren't posted but I'll publicly say my goal is to finish in the top 25% of the run portion and top 50% of the shooting portion. As I get more shooting competitions under my belt, my goals will be set higher but for now, that's where I am and I refuse to slow my run time down just to make the shooting easier so I'll keep practicing at shooting when tired and exhausted.

NOTE: The winter Run n Gun in Pawnee, OK is scheduled for 30 Jan 2016, registration should be open very soon. Hope to see some of you there.

FOG

[texasaggie2005]

The Corp of Cadets Marksmanship Unit from Texas A&M attended as well.

Man, I wish that had been around when I was in the Corps.

This thread has sort of gotten me interested in this. I might have to try a match next year.

[Default.mp3]

Sounds like great fun. I'd love to go up to the Pawnee one if I'm healed up from the Houston Marathon by then, and if I can get my rifle skills up to par. I'd probably have an easier time shooting pistol only with my skillset.

[Stone]

So I'm going to compete in a running biathlon this summer. Its a 10k trail race with 8 shooting stages. Stages are a mix of rifle and pistol from 10 to 500 yards.

I've read through the stages and determined I need ~110 rounds of rifle and ~65 rounds of pistol ammo.

The event organizer has announced a special prize for anyone who wins with a Garand. Naturally I'll be competing with a garand.

I consider myself a decent runner and am training to be a good runner. I can run a 10k now, but I want to run a 10k fast while carrying a load. This I'm not worried about. Training is easy(kinda) and I know how to do it.

What I dont know is the logistics of carrying this gear in a runner-friendly way.

I need to carry 13-14 enbloc clips and 4 glock 17 mags in a way that allows me to run 10k without it killing me. I have 6 molle garand pouches which I can mount to my competition belt, along with 4 mag pouches. I've got a GLS to hold my G19. I'm considering getting suspenders to attach to the belt. I've also got USGI 6 clip bandoleers for the garand.


Any suggestions? I haven't decided on if or how I'll carry water.

Have you considered something along the lines of the Eberlestck GS2? http://www.eberlestock.com/G2%20Gunslinger%20II.htm

http://www.eberlestock.com/miva/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=E1&Product_Code=H2&Category_Code=BP

[Default.mp3]

It looks like the Winter OK Gun 'n' Run is up. My question is, how large is the "full-size torso target" for the 500 yard hit? I ask because I would really like to run the event with my 10.5" with a red dot and magnifier, but 500 yards is pretty damn far for a 10.5"...

[FOG]

Its approx. 20" so you need to be 4 MOA or better. Buddy of mine cleared the stage with a cheap red dot and I did it with a fixed 3x BDC scope.

Signups start tomorrow. It'll fill up pretty fast.

[LOKNLOD]

Maybe we need an official P-F.com team!

[littlejerry]

I plan on attending the January race. July was great but revealed some deficits in my level of fitness. I intend to do better this time around.

[Default.mp3]

Its approx. 20" so you need to be 4 MOA or better. Buddy of mine cleared the stage with a cheap red dot and I did it with a fixed 3x BDC scope.

Signups start tomorrow. It'll fill up pretty fast.So, smaller than a full-size IPSC target (so more E Silhouette size)? Or is the 20" in reference to the width, and not height? Just trying to see what size target I should be practicing on/getting dope for. According to Hornady's ballistic calculator (2700 FPS, .243 coefficient & 55 gr. for XM193, 3.1 inches height over bore for sight, 109 yard zero), at 500 yards, my shot's are going to be ~80 inches low if I use my SBR; might have to dial for elevation there (if I even have that much adjustment, does anyone know?). Worse comes to worse, I suppose I could use my 14.5" and maybe borrow a variable, I guess, but that just like CDI, you know?

[littlejerry]

So, smaller than a full-size IPSC target (so more E Silhouette size)? Or is the 20" in reference to the width, and not height? Just trying to see what size target I should be practicing on/getting dope for. According to Hornady's ballistic calculator (2700 FPS, .243 coefficient & 55 gr. for XM193, 3.1 inches height over bore for sight, 109 yard zero), at 500 yards, my shot's are going to be ~80 inches low if I use my SBR; might have to dial for elevation there (if I even have that much adjustment, does anyone know?). Worse comes to worse, I suppose I could use my 14.5" and maybe borrow a variable, I guess, but that just like CDI, you know?

In July there was a 15-20 mph crosswind. Consider that as well...

[FOG]

In July there was a 15-20 mph crosswind. Consider that as well...
Could very well be windy in January. Below freezing temperatures and snow are also probabilities. Drawing a late start time would actually be advantageous this time.

[SLG]

Are you doing the 5 or 10? I'm about to sign up for the 10K.

[FOG]

10k all the way.

[SLG]

10k all the way.

Cool, see you there.

Maybe some of our esteemed pistol competition oriented members will show up as well?

[Default.mp3]

In July there was a 15-20 mph crosswind. Consider that as well...Well then. Time to place high by run time rather than shooting score. I, too, have signed up for a 10k. I personally find that ~40 °F gives me my best performance when wearing shorts and a short sleeve, so I'll be interested to see what temps I'll do best when wearing heavier stuff and kit.

[Bratch]

Just signed up for the 10k. Only about 15 slots left open.

[FOG]

Cool, see you there.

Maybe some of our esteemed pistol competition oriented members will show up as well?
Looks like PF is going to be well represented. Holler if you guys need any help with logistics.

[Bratch]

FYI, there is an awesome old school steak house in Pawnee with a 20oz T-Bone.

[SLG]

Looks like PF is going to be well represented. Holler if you guys need any help with logistics.

How about all of us meet for dinner the night before?

[Default.mp3]

How about all of us meet for dinner the night before?I would be down.

Also, if anyone wants to carpool from TX and/or share a hotel room Friday/Saturday night, PM me.

[FOG]

How about all of us meet for dinner the night before?
That can be arranged

[LOKNLOD]

I just took the final ticket.

You guys will recognize me, I'll be the one carrying too much shit and gasping for air.

[SLG]

So how many of us does that make? Where are we eating? What time?

[LOKNLOD]

At least 6 PFers?
littlejerry
SLG
FOG
Default.mp3
Bratch
LOKNLOD

[Bratch]

So how many of us does that make? Where are we eating? What time?

Pawnee is about 1.5 hours from LoknLod and me, I would be down for a Friday night dinner but it depends on location.

[LOKNLOD]

Yeah I'd love to get together and visit before (and after) the event -- but I figure I'll wait until a little closer before I finalize travel plans. If weather is clear I'm liable to just drive up that morning.
You guys who are definitely needing to stay somewhere, figure out your location and we can adjust dinner plans from there.

[FOG]

Pawnee is about 1.5 hours from LoknLod and me, I would be down for a Friday night dinner but it depends on location.
Whereabouts are you guys located? Im about 20 miles east of Tulsa. Have you guys ran the winter event before?

[LOKNLOD]

Whereabouts are you guys located? Im about 20 miles east of Tulsa. Have you guys ran the winter event before?

NWOKC/Edmond.

I've never done one or any other kind of race...

[Bratch]

This will be my first time too.

This thread and a recent range trip reignited my shooting interest. I got some pointers from Nick710 and decided to go for it.

[FOG]

Summer was easy to prepare for bc you knew it would be HOT but winter... well you guys know unpredictable Oklahoma in January can be.

[littlejerry]

Summer was easy to prepare for bc you knew it would be HOT but winter... well you guys know unpredictable Oklahoma in January can be.

I actually have no idea. Can you share some wisdom?

[Bratch]

I actually have no idea. Can you share some wisdom?

It could be 0*F, with 20 MPH N wind and two feet of snow on top of 2 inches of ice or it could be 65* sunny and calm. It's a coin toss on what you'll get.

This was the week of Jan 30, 2015
http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp221/bratch83/21F66A49-1021-4FA5-A38A-42207A252D25.jpg (http://s414.photobucket.com/user/bratch83/media/21F66A49-1021-4FA5-A38A-42207A252D25.jpg.html)

Here is 2014 for comparison
http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp221/bratch83/5FE6CC29-8860-46B6-8D56-48D987A1134F.jpg (http://s414.photobucket.com/user/bratch83/media/5FE6CC29-8860-46B6-8D56-48D987A1134F.jpg.html)

[FOG]

Bratch is right.

For example, Jan 29, 2015 the low was in the 30's and the high was in the 60's. Compare that to 2014, when the low was in the teens and the high was in the 40's with a stiff wind.

Just like in the summer, start times will have a huge bearing on how much suck a guy has to go through.

[Chris Rhines]

Do any of these matches happen out East? I'd like to try one, but Pawnee is a little far to travel.

[FOG]

Do any of these matches happen out East? I'd like to try one, but Pawnee is a little far to travel.
None that I'm aware of. Pecos, Tx held the first one 14 years ago and since then a few more have been popped up but theyre either in TX or OK. The format is definately gaining in popularity.

[FOG]

So how many of us does that make? Where are we eating? What time?
There's alot of options depending on where you guys are staying, what time you are arriving, etc. We can work out details as it gets closer. Also, If you'all need/want a place to shoot a few rounds on Friday, let me know. This little 200 YD range is always open.
4043

[FOG]

How's the training going boys? I'm logging 10-12 miles of trail running a week with a loaded pack. Incorporating sprints into the mix as well.

Had a buddy who is also signed up come over yesterday and we did some run/shoot drills. I'm in better shape than he is but he can out shoot me especially with the pistol so we're good motivation for each other. Set up the VTAC board at 150 YD with a 8" steel plate as a target... humbling is the word that comes to mind. I can run it pretty good at 50 and 100 but 150 is a different deal.

[SLG]

Glad to hear it. I am not training at all for it at this point, just my usual daily crossfit and 2-3 times a week shooting. I expect to suck on the run...:-)

[Bratch]

Basically my normal S&C plus BJJ. I told my S&C guy about it and he is starting to add some running into the mix. 600m intervals are as far as I've done so far.

I got a rough zero on my AR and did some ammo comparison and a little pistol work and dry fire.

[LOKNLOD]

I, uh, started running some.

[Bratch]

Ran a 5k yesterday and was about 1:30 off of my PR. Course and weather weren't ideal and 800m is as far as I've ran straight until then so overall not too upset. Haven't done any shooting since getting a rough zero and checking ammo a while back, need to work on that.

[Default.mp3]

Whelp, I confirmed what I had feared: running with kit fucking sucks dick. Also, fuck Houston; how the fuck there are still mosquitoes in December?

My usual 10k times are around an 8:30 pace; I'm also trying to train for the Houston Marathon at the same time. I'm also about ~140 lbs., so not the greatest build for rucking.

I ran today basically with what I'd be using at the event: Tyr war belt with suspenders, Safariland 6004, suppressed 10.5" with an SOB Bitch sling, Aimpoint, and magnifier, Salomon trail runners, running shirt, soft shell pants. Race day will have a couple more loaded mags, knee caps, and gloves. Did two two-mile sections, the first section was done at about an ~11:30 pace, 5 minute rest, second section at about a ~12:45 pace. It was dark as Hell, so I ran with a headlamp; terrain was relatively flat, high grass, some minor holes, lots of puddles (hence the mosquitoes, I guess), was about ~65° F. Shoes were soaked by the end, went ass over tea kettle at one juncture when I hit a hole, and almost faceplanted a couple times beyond that due to mud piles (no, I was not familiar with the terrain).

I am very confident that by race day I will be able to maintain a ~14:00 pace throughout; hoping for a ~12:00 pace, but that's probably unrealistic. Not sure if I will be carrying water; I regularly run a half-marathon route without drinking anything, but that's unencumbered, and I sweated a lot today (relatively speaking), but I also went in without much hydration through the day (not the greatest of ideas). I originally tried running with the rifle slung tight against my back, muzzle down. Worked okay, but the magnifier mount started getting annoying after awhile, and the suppressor would occasionally bang into my pistol. The second segment, I resorted to having it slung tight up front, with my hands loosely keeping it from bouncing, while also allowing it to swing with the rhythm of my run, which I liked much better. The drop leg holster did not bother me much, probably due to the fact that it's mounted up very high, with fairly little weight on the leg itself. The plan is to do a kitted-up run once a week, in conjunction with the other running I've been doing; I'd do more, but Monday is the only day that I have access to a space where I can run with kit on without having the cops called on me. Sunday might eventually open up, too.

Side note, the T-2 does indeed have a way crisper dot than a T-1, especially with the magnifier. Good investment, assuming I can figure out dope for the damn thing at 500 yards.

[FOG]

That's funny right there! Running with a load is different that's why I switched to a weapon carrying pack, while it does add a few pounds, the ease of carrying weapon and gear is worth it IMO. My buddy just bought a Eberlestock Lo-Drag, it's noticeably bigger than my Gun Runner but he likes it b/c the scabbard area is larger and it's easier to get your rifle in and out.

Training has been interrupted the last month. I have managed to squeeze in a 4 mile trail run (w/ a loaded pack) once a week but that's about it. LA Police Gear had a huge discount on the vented Vertx pants so I picked up a pair. Pretty pleased with them so far.

I bought a VP9 and a shot timer and have been doing some of the drills in the DOTW sub-forum. I'm getting where I don't suck quite so bad with a pistol. I bought a Vortex Strike Eagle 1-6x for my Colt 6920 and plan to get in some long range practice soon. Also bought 200 rounds of 69 grain match grade ammo to try out.

[LOKNLOD]

That's funny right there! Running with a load is different that's why I switched to a weapon carrying pack, while it does add a few pounds, the ease of carrying weapon and gear is worth it IMO. My buddy just bought a Eberlestock Lo-Drag, it's noticeably bigger than my Gun Runner but he likes it b/c the scabbard area is larger and it's easier to get your rifle in and out.

Training has been interrupted the last month. I have managed to squeeze in a 4 mile trail run (w/ a loaded pack) once a week but that's about it. LA Police Gear had a huge discount on the vented Vertx pants so I picked up a pair. Pretty pleased with them so far.

I bought a VP9 and a shot timer and have been doing some of the drills in the DOTW sub-forum. I'm getting where I don't suck quite so bad with a pistol. I bought a Vortex Strike Eagle 1-6x for my Colt 6920 and plan to get in some long range practice soon. Also bought 200 rounds of 69 grain match grade ammo to try out.

I helped a friend get his Strike Eagle sighted in recently (on a Tavor!) and it's a nice little scope for the money. I have been somewhat tempted to pick one up just for the extra magnification for this event :cool: but I think I'm going to make it with my existing Accupoint.

Meanwhile I really need to be running and figuring out my load bearing setup in better detail.

[SLG]

So, what's the best hotel to stay in? I would like to be pretty close to the site, if possible.

[FOG]

I was going to blow my wad and get the Razor 1-6 but at the last minute I chickened out and went the cheaper route. You're right, it's not bad for the $$. Darn thing is bright as heck for sure.

Did my weekly 4 mile loaded run tonite.. would like to say it's getting easier but no, it still sucks. Immediately afterwards, shot the pistol at steel at 20 yds then transitioned to rifle, ran back to 150 yds and did the vtac board. That thing at 150 kicks my butt. I bet there will be more than a few DQ'S on that stage unless the target is big.

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[FOG]

So, what's the best hotel to stay in? I would like to be pretty close to the site, if possible.


I think there's a small motel in Pawnee but I don't know anything about it. There's so many coming from out of town that it may already be full. If that's the case, then the Holiday Inn in Sand Springs would be your best bet. I think that where LJ stayed. It's about 30 min or so from the match.




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[SLG]

FOG,

I'm leaning towards staying in stillwater. Looks like I can take 177 to 15 and not take too long. Does that sound right?


Also, what is the smallest rifle target? Sounds like a big piece of steel at 500, but what about the others?

[Bratch]

FOG,

I'm leaning towards staying in stillwater. Looks like I can take 177 to 15 and not take too long. Does that sound right?


Also, what is the smallest rifle target? Sounds like a big piece of steel at 500, but what about the others?

Stillwater is what I was going to recommend, I've made that drive a lot and it's not bad.

[SLG]

Stillwater is what I was going to recommend, I've made that drive a lot and it's not bad.

Cool, thanks. How long a drive? I figure around 30 minutes or so? I drive fast...

[FOG]

SLG, assuming you're coming in on I44, you're driving an hour further than necessary if you go to stillwater. Distance wise, it's about the same from west Tulsa/Sand springs to Pawnee as it is from stillwater.

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[FOG]

... smallest rifle target was approx 12 x 20 I think

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[Bratch]

Cool, thanks. How long a drive? I figure around 30 minutes or so? I drive fast...

30 is reasonable depending on where you stay, north side of Stillwater will be quicker and easier. I'm just estimating to Pawnee, I'm not sure where the match is.

[SLG]

SLG, assuming you're coming in on I44, you're driving an hour further than necessary if you go to stillwater. Distance wise, it's about the same from west Tulsa/Sand springs to Pawnee as it is from stillwater.

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It looks like I would take 35 most of the way down. Either way, I would prefer to not drive further than needed. Any towns north of pawnee worth staying in?

[FOG]

Are you coming from KC, MO?

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[littlejerry]

I staid at the Hampton inn in sand springs. I believe it was a easy 45 minute drive to the race.

Race night I staid in Conway AK. It was about 4 hours of driving in the dark. It was far more difficult than I had expected(post race exhaustion).

[Bratch]

It looks like I would take 35 most of the way down. Either way, I would prefer to not drive further than needed. Any towns north of pawnee worth staying in?

On 35 Perry would be a great option, Tonkawa wouldn't be bad. I'm not sure the hotel situation in either but I'm pretty sure Perry has a few.

[SLG]

Perry looks like a winner, thanks!

Now, where are we having dinner Friday night?

[johncorey]

So I just schooled myself up on this, and it sounds awesome. In typical fashion, it seems the gig is full, no surprise there. It's like a dirt Biathlon + pistol! May have to consider the waitlist.

[OkieHeat]

So I just schooled myself up on this, and it sounds awesome. In typical fashion, it seems the gig is full, no surprise there. It's like a dirt Biathlon + pistol! May have to consider the waitlist.

I sign up a few weeks ago for the wait list and then there were at least 40 people in front of me.

[FOG]

Don't forget about the Brutal Goat RnG in April. Knowing Mr. Brim, it'll be a challenge.

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[johncorey]

I sign up a few weeks ago for the wait list and then there were at least 40 people in front of me.

So you're saying I have a chance?

I guess this will give me time to actually sort some kit issues out. I set up a BFG RackMinus with some GP and DP pouches last year and it's been the bees knees for me. Much less bulk than a HPG OKB and their SPACEAGETRON material does not absorb water. I wish they had that available years ago when I really could have used it. I've never ran per se with a rifle, but on skis it's been the traditional Euro-hunting sling style, and ruck-running, it's always in one hand or the other. I will comb through the thread and pics to get a better idea of what works and what does not.

This thread really has piqued my interest in such endeavors. Thanks!

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Perry looks like a winner, thanks!

Now, where are we having dinner Friday night?I feel like we would be honor bound to find a Chili's, in memoriam of Todd's departure from the forum.

Otherwise, I saw this list: http://pecangrovemotel.squarespace.com/local-restaurants/

[SLG]

I feel like we would be honor bound to find a Chili's, in memoriam of Todd's departure from the forum.

Otherwise, I saw this list: http://pecangrovemotel.squarespace.com/local-restaurants/

Im good with whatever works for you guys. I plan to get to the hotel around 430 or 5, and would like to eat by 6 so i can get a good nights sleep, but i can alter that schedule as needed.

[FOG]

Less than 4 weeks til race day...

Me and a buddy got some training in yesterday. Ran some, shot some and bs'd the better part of the day. Good times.

5269
5270

Fitst time trying out my colt since i put on some new goodies... SLR handguard, BCM ambi charging handle, BAD lever, Hogue grip and Magpul stock. Feels and handles alot better.

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/16/01/03/9ceceb46d2109d414507e744e92547c0.jpg


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[LOKNLOD]

I'm sitting here hacking up a lung (bronchitis) and feeling very unprepared. Would it be uncouth to show up on a Segway? :p

I hope the weather is more like this weekend, than last weekend.

[FOG]

I had that crud a few weeks ago... sucked. Hope you get to feeling better.

Match would be interesting if the weather happens to be like it was last weekend with snow/sleet/ rain and howling winds. I forced myself to run in it just to be prepared. Time was slow but it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be.



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[littlejerry]

Feeling a bit out of shape post holiday binge.

Time to focus on training for the next 3 weeks.


Rifle and gear are in good shape. Vortex PST 1-4 was a good upgrade from irons. Have taken it out to 600. Decided that Mk262 was worth the price after battling wind at 600 with 55gr rounds...

[FOG]

Well, its about go-time. Temps next Saturday are supposed to be in the mid 60's with breezy south winds. Personally, I was hoping for a true cold weather test but that's not gonna happen.




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[LOKNLOD]

Well, its about go-time. Temps next Saturday are supposed to be in the mid 60's with breezy south winds. Personally, I was hoping for a true cold weather test but that's not gonna happen.

Ha, I just watched a forecast and came here to mention the same thing. Channel 4 dude just called for 63° and 20mph wind. Nice weather is nice, but it does take the "battle the elements" angle out of it.

I'm still not as prepared as I'd like to be, but are we ever? No doubt I can walk 10k if I have to, I'd just like to not be the absolute slowest. It's been a short couple months since signup to prepare. Still got an occasional cough, hopefully that continues to clear up. This week was a bit of a setback as my wife had her tonsils out on Tuesday and it put the brakes on my prep (been rowing, but machine is in the bedroom where she's resting). I have been tempted to email and see if I can shoot for the 5k instead but sorta feel like a chicken asking...like giving up early.

I did manage to get a decent zero on optic - I moved my Accupoint over to my SBR in hopes of combining the lightest weight plus best range. If the longer shots were 300 or so I could swing just the Aimpoint, but 500 is really stretching my eyes unless the target is Buick-sized. I haven't been able to shoot it at 500 yet so I'm going to have to trust math and some Kentucky windage to get my 500s.

For load carriage I'm planning on going as slick as possible with a Hill People kit bag, I think. I'll still probably end up carrying too much crap. I tend to over-accessorize.

Couple Qs for you guys who have run already - historically has there been a lot of "crawl through this mud puddle" type of stuff?
How do the shooting stages work out - do runners typically stack up at the stages, and you end up standing around, or is it all spaced out pretty well? What time do you get out after the whole thing is over? I need to plan my total day schedule accordingly for coverage at the house in case my wife isn't 100% yet for handling the 3 kids solo (this tonsil thing is a real bear for grownups). I'm probably down to hang out and visit after unless it runs super late.

And for you guys traveling in, still an interest in getting together for dinner Friday night? Did we ever decide on a place?

[SLG]

Well, I've been on the road for all of december and jan, so not only are my workouts suffering, but almost no shooting has occurred. I'm pretty sure this will be a test, regardless of the weather.

I'm staying in Perry, and as you know, I don't know the area, so you guys tell me where to be to eat and I'll be there.

[FOG]

...


For load carriage I'm planning on going as slick as possible with a Hill People kit bag, I think. I'll still probably end up carrying too much crap. I tend to over-accessorize.

Couple Qs for you guys who have run already - historically has there been a lot of "crawl through this mud puddle" type of stuff?
How do the shooting stages work out - do runners typically stack up at the stages, and you end up standing around, or is it all spaced out pretty well? What time do you get out after the whole thing is over? I need to plan my total day schedule accordingly for coverage at the house in case my wife isn't 100% yet for handling the 3 kids solo (this tonsil thing is a real bear for grownups). I'm probably down to hang out and visit after unless it runs super late.

And for you guys traveling in, still an interest in getting together for dinner Friday night? Did we ever decide on a place?

I'm interested in checking out that HPG bag, it's been on my to-buy list for awhile bit I've never seen one in person.

From the three previous run n guns I've attended, i've concluded that crawling under and climbing over things is a mainstay at these events, never crawled through mud though.

Wait time varies from nothing to 30 min and is dependent on start time and luck. As the day progresses, wait times increase. All it takes is for someone to knock a target out of commission and things start to back up.

Duration is also start time dependent. In the summer, I was already home before the last stragglers crossed the finish line.

I'd love to meet up Friday but you guys are on the other side of the state from me so we'll try to visit before or after the event.






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[SLG]

I'm interested in checking out that HPG bag, it's been on my to-buy list for awhile bit I've never seen one in person.

From the three previous run n guns I've attended, i've concluded that crawling under and climbing over things is a mainstay at these events, never crawled through mud though.



How much clearance do I need to worry about for crawling under stuff? It looks like a bunch of guys use Eberlestock packs for the event, do they have to take them off?

I have a spare HPG kitbag, if you like, I'll bring it. If you beat me, I'll give it to you:-)

























































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[FOG]

Last summer, the 'low' crawl wire was so high I could darn near baby crawl thru it on my knees. I'm 5'8" 150#, but even the big guys I know squirmed thru it ok. Actually I didn't see many Ebe packs as most opt to run a small camelback style hydration pack with a HSGI style battle belt.

You could shoot every stage weak hand with iron sights and still beat me so maybe I'll bring some $$ just in case you're willing to part with it. [emoji4]

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[SLG]

You could shoot every stage weak hand with iron sights and still beat me

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I wish that were true. We'll see how it shakes out on Sat.

Thanks for the "high crawl" info. I would prefer not to wear a pack at all, but I think I'll need to carry a layer to keep warm once we stop running and are waiting around at the stages. Does that sound right? I'm bringing a puffy jacket for just standing around. If it really gets to 60, then maybe I won't need it, but a 20mph wind is pretty harsh when you're sweaty.

[FOG]

I too, will have an outer layer lashed to my pack in case I encounter a long wait time at a stage.

I'm debating ditching the Gunrunner and just running a hydration pack and stuffing my mags in my pockets. I experimented with that last weekend and the minimalist feel was a welcome change.



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[LOKNLOD]

I just snagged the kit bag from a buddy yesterday so it's an experiment for me too. I have a war-, er, class-belt setup I'm happy with too. Except it has the wrong holster. I guess I should get it figured out :p

The temps and wind could be tricky to prep for - I have a really lightweight pullover windbreaker I might drag along if it's just a "windchill while waiting" issue. However if it's 45* in the morning and windy, it'll be pretty miserable. Might have to bring some gloves along too. If it was going to stay colder, I would probably just use pockets on my jacket too. But I think I'll overheat in it if it's that warm.

Decisions, decisions.

[FOG]

I dress so I feel almost cold at the start. Within 1/2 mile I've warmed up enough where I'm just right, yet not sweating very much which I strive to avoid. I can stop and shoot for 5 minutes and still be ok. Any rest much longer than that and I have to put an outer layer on.

Conversely, I've tried starting the run dressed in what allows me to feel warm and I find myself stopping and shedding clothes. That wastes precious time and risks sweating.

Material choice is important. Merino wool or a synthetic is my favorite. The adage, 'cotton kills', rings in my head so I avoid cotton against my skin at all costs, including socks and especially underwear.

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[SLG]

I dress so I feel almost cold at the start. Within 1/2 mile I've warmed up enough where I'm just right, yet not sweating very much which I strive to avoid. I can stop and shoot for 5 minutes and still be ok. Any rest much longer than that and I have to put an outer layer on.

Conversely, I've tried starting the run dressed in what allows me to feel warm and I find myself stopping and shedding clothes. That wastes precious time and risks sweating.

Material choice is important. Merino wool or a synthetic is my favorite. The adage, 'cotton kills', rings in my head so I avoid cotton against my skin at all costs, including socks and especially underwear.

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That is the way to go, ime.

[SLG]

I'm going to run a Kifaru Scout with my pistol and spare mags on the belt. Rifle slung. Insulation and water bottles in the pack, as wella s my eye and ear pro. Might wear the eye pro, not sure.

I don't want to give medical advice, but it is only a 6 mile run, and not all at once. I don't mean to downplay it, but the temps won't be like they were when you guys did it last. I am not a believer in constant hydration during an event. I know that goes counter to conventional wisdom, but the human body is meant to be able to go for a while without needing water. I've run 10k's in really hot weather, and never drank till it was over. I tend to stay well hydrated, and know what my body needs. It always cracks me up at crossfit when people constantly stop during a 1 hour workout (only 20 mins straight, usually!) and drink. They are not the ones in top shape, ime.

I intend to drink at the shooting points, which I believe will be more than frequent enough. Can't be more than 3 or so miles at a time, I assume. Maybe I'm wrong. Any idea how long the longest leg of the run is?

[FOG]

On their website, there is a map at the bottom. First time they've supplied that information but last summer there were some (including myself) that got off course.

You start on the gravel road and travel in a horseshoe pattern for 2.5 miles +/-. This part isn't bad to me. Its the longest leg between stages.

You turn right into the woods and have 4 stages scattered a good distance apart during the woods part of the race. This is where many catch their breath bc alot of that trail isn't conducive to running. I passed many during this stretch.

Return to gravel road and begin to backtrack for a mile or two. This stretch is where the fatigue will kick in. Lots walk some of this.

BEFORE you reach the original starting point you'll turn left and travel thru rolling pasture land and engage 3 stages a few hundred yards apart. From the last stage to the finish line, sprint approx 600 yards. Done.



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[FOG]

I get what you're saying about hydration. There are some who choose not to carry water at all. I can't do it anymore. As I get older my body tends to need more water.

Football and basic training taught me that I could go without water but that was 25 years ago. Nowadays my body tends to shut down faster. I attribute it to being weaker, both physically and mentally which I guess is a product of age and easy living, but I'm fighting to stay sharp [emoji4]

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[MDS]

Just want to wish you all good luck, and say that I'm jealous. Maybe I can make it out to the next even this summer.

Have fun!

[littlejerry]

I'm going to run a Kifaru Scout with my pistol and spare mags on the belt. Rifle slung. Insulation and water bottles in the pack, as wella s my eye and ear pro. Might wear the eye pro, not sure.

I don't want to give medical advice, but it is only a 6 mile run, and not all at once. I don't mean to downplay it, but the temps won't be like they were when you guys did it last. I am not a believer in constant hydration during an event. I know that goes counter to conventional wisdom, but the human body is meant to be able to go for a while without needing water. I've run 10k's in really hot weather, and never drank till it was over. I tend to stay well hydrated, and know what my body needs. It always cracks me up at crossfit when people constantly stop during a 1 hour workout (only 20 mins straight, usually!) and drink. They are not the ones in top shape, ime.

I intend to drink at the shooting points, which I believe will be more than frequent enough. Can't be more than 3 or so miles at a time, I assume. Maybe I'm wrong. Any idea how long the longest leg of the run is?

Part of what got me in the summer was the long waits at stages. I have no problem running a 10k without water. But running and sitting over the course of 2-3 hours you'll get thirsty.

This event should be much easier with the cool weather, but I'll still have a liter of water on me.

I also drink like a fish though... I'll go through 4 liters of water a day at my desk job. When hiking I dial it back and it doesn't seem to bother me. But in the summer run I used up 1.5 liters and had muscle spasms from dehydration... And pissed brown after the match.

[SLG]

Part of what got me in the summer was the long waits at stages. I have no problem running a 10k without water. But running and sitting over the course of 2-3 hours you'll get thirsty.

This event should be much easier with the cool weather, but I'll still have a liter of water on me.

I also drink like a fish though... I'll go through 4 liters of water a day at my desk job. When hiking I dial it back and it doesn't seem to bother me. But in the summer run I used up 1.5 liters and had muscle spasms from dehydration... And pissed brown after the match.

I'm not saying anything to the contrary. My point was that I don't think a camelbak is all that useful for an event like this, because you will likely have some down time at the stages and can drink then. You likely don't need to drink on the go, so I'm carrying an actual pack, rather than a hydration pack. All of this is "likely", because I don't know for sure. I do know about proper hydration, and how to accomplish it. Whether the event allows that to happen in an ideal way or not, I don't know, but I do think it is likely to allow it.

Water is essential. Drinking every 5 minutes during a race is not the best way to go, imo. That was all, certainly not a comment on what happened to you last summer. I well remember reading about it, and as I think I said then, you did well to not quit. I'm sure it made a strong impression on you.

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For the crawling, what kind of terrain is underfoot? Most likely going to shed my gaiters, since the weather looks good, wondering if I should lose the Knee Caps, too.

For dinner, if that's still happening, did y'all wanna do it in Pawnee, Perry, or Stillwater? Stillwater will have the most options, but it's not exactly on the way.

[SLG]

For the crawling, what kind of terrain is underfoot? Most likely going to shed my gaiters, since the weather looks good, wondering if I should lose the Knee Caps, too.

For dinner, if that's still happening, did y'all wanna do it in Pawnee, Perry, or Stillwater? Stillwater will have the most options, but it's not exactly on the way.

I talked to Loknlod earlier. I'm up for anything, but would prefer not to drive too far from Perry, as I'll already be in the car for 5 hours to get there.

[LOKNLOD]

I talked to Loknlod earlier. I'm up for anything, but would prefer not to drive too far from Perry, as I'll already be in the car for 5 hours to get there.

I was in the midst of a flurry of PMs so we'll get everyone rounded up :cool:

[FOG]

For the crawling, what kind of terrain is underfoot? Most likely going to shed my gaiters, since the weather looks good, wondering if I should lose the Knee Caps, too.
.

in July, you had to crawl thru a bed of gravel but that was the first time they tried that.



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[littlejerry]

I'm not saying anything to the contrary. My point was that I don't think a camelbak is all that useful for an event like this, because you will likely have some down time at the stages and can drink then. You likely don't need to drink on the go, so I'm carrying an actual pack, rather than a hydration pack. All of this is "likely", because I don't know for sure. I do know about proper hydration, and how to accomplish it. Whether the event allows that to happen in an ideal way or not, I don't know, but I do think it is likely to allow it.

Water is essential. Drinking every 5 minutes during a race is not the best way to go, imo. That was all, certainly not a comment on what happened to you last summer. I well remember reading about it, and as I think I said then, you did well to not quit. I'm sure it made a strong impression on you.

In haste I think I misunderstood your post. For a moment I thought you weren't planning on carrying water. And I agree, drinking every 5 minutes isn't a good strategy. Every 30-60 minutes depending on the individual should suffice.


As a general warning I'd recommend you guys bring food. You could start at 9am or 1pm. If you start late you'll want to keep your body fuelled up and ready to go.

I ate a light breakfast in the summer in anticipation of a 9AM start. Fortunately I had some trail mix in the car, but the high fat/fiber stuff isn't what I'd generally eat before a run.

[FOG]

A few more things...

Be sure to bring chairs or even cots since there's no place to rest. Maybe some reading material or something to pass time in case you have to wait several hours to run. Also, there will be one portajohn and it'll get rank quick.

I'm bringing an assortment of clothes. One set for a cold early start and another for a late warm start and of course my favorite overalls to change into when it's all over.


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[LOKNLOD]

Sunscreen. Don't forget to slap on some sunscreen! Also, maybe bring a Zyrtec or Claritin to pop if you've got allergies. Warm weather and south wind seem to stir them up.



I'm bringing an assortment of clothes. One set for a cold early start and another for a late warm start and of course my favorite overalls to change into when it's all over.


I think that's looking like a good plan.

Today's weather was gorgeous... Current forecast for Saturday calls for 67, partly cloudy, 14-20mph SSE wind. The low Friday night is 36 though, so 0800 will be pretty chilly!

5673

[FOG]

Strategy hint ... remember, from the time you start to the time you finish, your either on run time or shooting time (unless there's a wait at a stage). Your transitions from run-to-shoot and shoot - to-run modes are crucial. Get your crap in order as you approach the stage, show a clear rifle, ask for a quick COF and get to shooting ASAP. Once finished, gather up mags, get your score sheet and hit the trail ASAP. The RO'S may want to chat ... that stuff can wait until the race is over.

If you're just in it to finish (nothing wrong with that BTW) disregard all of the above.

Last instruction, look for this lil bearded guy and come say hi. Good luck boys.

5675

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SLG's thought process during the award ceremony: "Man, I'm so out of shape, I'd be surprised if I placed. Oh, Bratch got 3rd, pretty sure I didn't get 2nd or 1st. Oh, random guy got 2nd, no way I got 1st. Oh, I got first, how surprising."

The rest of us: "Oh, Bratch got 3rd, SLG must have gotten 2nd or 1st. Oh, he didn't get 2nd, must have gotten 1st. Yep, he got 1st."

So, congrats to SLG and Bratch, looks like PF made a strong showing for the 10k placements. Times should be up by tomorrow night, so I can see how much I sucked.

[taadski]

SLG's thought process during the award ceremony: "Man, I'm so out of shape, I'd be surprised if I placed. Oh, Bratch got 3rd, pretty sure I didn't get 2nd or 1st. Oh, random guy got 2nd, no way I got 1st. Oh, I got first, how surprising."

The rest of us: "Oh, Bratch got 3rd, SLG must have gotten 2nd or 1st. Oh, he didn't get 2nd, must have gotten 1st. Yep, he got 1st."

So, congrats to SLG and Bratch, looks like PF made a strong showing for the 10k placements. Times should be up by tomorrow night, so I can see how much I sucked.

I can't really say that was unexpected. ;).


Nice job, S.

[SLG]

Thanks very much!

It was a very good time, and it was great to meet and hang out with Loknload, Bratch, Default, FOG and a brief cameo by Littlejerry.

P-F dudes are good guys, and of course, funny in person. They reminded me of hanging with my friends at work, which is definitely a compliment.

Maybe next year we can get even more guys to turn out for it.

Also, don't forget the Tac-5 Challenge!

[Bratch]

It was good getting to meet everyone. We couldn't ask for a better day, the weather was awesome.

[johncorey]

Nice going to all PFers who competed, and congratulations to SLG on the win. Looking forward to the AARs, if there are any forthcoming.

RE: Tac5, a few buddies and I are planning on making it. It would be a shame if a Missourian managed a repeat win in God's Country!

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The scores are up now (http://www.okrunngun.com/#!scores/c1x9v), although I'm super confused about how I placed so low on the running; the recorded time doesn't really make sense, as one of the guys I know I passed (the dude that placed 1st in the Mil-surp challenge) somehow has a lower run time than me. Bratch and I were separated by 2 numbers in terms of run order (with me ahead), and he never lapped me, yet he somehow has almost half my time, and I doubt he waited over 60 minutes longer at the stations than me. Mildly disappointing I don't know my real score (or do I really just suck that bad?), but whatevs.

I'd love to make Tac5, but logistics will be tough. How late do sign-ups stay open?

And I guess I'll do an AAR tomorrow or something.

[LOKNLOD]

although I'm super confused about how I placed so low on the running;

I was wondering about that too... if Bryce left ~10m after you (based on position), the times posted posted would mean you came in an hour after him. That isn't right.

And there's no way you were 20 full minutes slower than me :p

[littlejerry]

Just got back home and will post an AAR later this week. Short story is I did a lot better this time. Achieved my goal of getting top 10.

SLG is apparently a certified badass. I'm seriously impressed with the guys who placed top 3.

FOG also smoked me on the run. I'm setting my sights on getting as fit as him.

Bummed I had to jet after the race but my group was leaving. I'd like to spend some time with the PF crowd next time.

[Bratch]

I was wondering about that too... if Bryce left ~10m after you (based on position), the times posted posted would mean you came in an hour after him. That isn't right.

And there's no way you were 20 full minutes slower than me :p

I wonder if they missed the wait time somehow? Mine looks about right, I was on the course about 2.5 hours and had about 1.25 hours of wait time, leaving me about 75 minutes on the actual run.

I noticed bonus stage two had a screw up the winner had a time of 0.00.

[LOKNLOD]

I wonder if they missed the wait time somehow? Mine looks about right, I was on the course about 2.5 hours and had about 1.25 hours of wait time, leaving me about 75 minutes on the actual run.

I noticed bonus stage two had a screw up the winner had a time of 0.00.

It's definitely not a perfect system. They forgot to write down my wait on the last stage, it was only a couple minutes though so I don't think it was what edged me out of a win ;)

Assuming Default's time is wrong, I'm officially the slowest PF guy... :rolleyes:

[MVS]

Good job guys. Congratulations! I have been following this thread while starting to prepare for the Wolverine 5K run and gun. It is different than what you guys did, but helpful nonetheless.

[littlejerry]

It's definitely not a perfect system. They forgot to write down my wait on the last stage, it was only a couple minutes though so I don't think it was what edged me out of a win ;)

Assuming Default's time is wrong, I'm officially the slowest PF guy... :rolleyes:

I think I hold the title of slowest... 103 minutes

[LOKNLOD]

I think I hold the title of slowest... 103 minutes

Dude not even close :( You could have watched a sitcom after you got in and then told me about it when I showed up ;)

[Bratch]

Dude not even close :( You could have watched a sitcom after you got in and then told me about it when I showed up ;)

Yeah but the sling bag never bothered you...

[FOG]

Mildly disappointing I don't know my real score


Dude that sucks. Next time, snap a pic of your scorecard before you turn it in. To put it in perspective, my buddy Cole walked a portion of the gravel road and still finished in 105 min. Oh well, scoring mistakes do happen in any event.

I will say this, it was great meeting all the PF guys. You guys are great competitors and cool guys to hang with. Visiting with y'all afterwards while enjoying a good steak dinner was awesome.

LJ, your consistency was uncanny. 79 percentile across the board is great.

Bratch, shooting that good while running that fast is impressive. You were the only one who challenged Al's run time and that is quite impressive.

SLG, what can I say, you are a professional and it showed. I'm going make it a point to make the trek up to KC so I can come train with you. By the way, can't say thanks enough for the HPG kit bag, in fact I ran with it tonite.

All in all, it was a good event. Much easier than the summer, evident by the run times. I finished 90% in the run, 50% in the shooting and 70% overall, giving me a 19th place finish out of 80+ competitors. I practiced the VTAC board alot and did good there but was average/poor on everything else. I MUST get some professional training if I want to compete for the top spots.

I hope you guys had a great time and plan to show up for the summer edition on July 16. LnL and Bratch, try to make it to the Brutal Goat in April in Vinita.





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[LOKNLOD]

Yeah but the sling bag never bothered you...

There's always a silver lining!

Also, it's really hard for me to let that go (ha) without a "the cold never bothered me anyway" joke.

[LOKNLOD]

PSA -- some of the pictures are up now, and there are more than what pop up so hit the hard to see "show more" at the bottom. There are some really good pics of FOG and SLG. One of me in there looking tired but at least I think I'm actually running in that pic :cool:

Now, for the extremely wordy writeup:

It was great to put new faces with screen names, as well as see some familiar faces, and I even bump into one guy I knew at one of the stages when we realized we recognized each other (beards and dark glasses will do that). As SLG said, PF folks are good folks, and I had a great time hanging out before and after the actual event.

I'll allow others to out themselves but I finished 35th of 83 10k competitors. Breaking out the run/shoot, I was 22nd on the shooting and 48th on the running. I suppose I could take solace in being above the 50% mark overall but considering friends and PFers (not to be confused with MFers) covered 5 of the top 11 spots, it takes a little bit of the wind out of that sail...

This is not intended to be a complete AAR, just a bit of a mind-dump now that I’ve finally got a minute to sit down and spill some thoughts. (edit to add: it still got pretty long...)

Thoughts:

Venue -- Great spot. The hosts provided a lot of room spread out over a couple of sections and it’s pretty country. The sheriff (with kid in passenger seat, in friendly mode) cruised by as we ran on the county road. There was plenty of elevation change on the road sections to make them interesting, and the trails were more technical in spots with a few small creek crossings, a good mix of mossy rocks under loose leaves,
Weather -- it was really about perfect. Chilly in the morning, but warmed up quickly with the sun. I think noon was about the peak of warmth, as it did cloud up and the wind picked up around 2pm.
Timing -- With the staggered release of shooters, I was number 4 out the gate, so I took off while it was still chilly (I suspect the wind was a bigger factor for guys shooting later in the day, but it wasn’t as bad as the day before - it probably screwed with some of the ROs who ran the previous day). The whole event moved faster than expected, but I was back in time to see SLG before he left. My intel on water and ammo usage clearly shaved at least 20 minutes off his run time :rolleyes: I can imagine during the summer that the difference between running at 9am vs. noon could be a significant difference.
Timing II: Fitbit Boogaloo -- I’m really glad I wore my fitbit because I was oblivious to the fact I’d need to keep track of my wait times. Using the workout timer to track wait times is good. Using the workout timer to track the run, then trying to do math in your head when you show up to a stage sucking wind from the run up a trail, is not good. I was told there would be no math...
Timing III --Starting early meant there wasn’t much wait time at the stages. A couple were no wait and none were longer than 6:xx minutes. I think the later guys were talking of approaching an hour wait on some of the stages? There are pros and cons to more/less wait time, but probably a sweet spot somewhere in the middle. 5 minutes to catch your breath and let the heart rate come down is probably better than 55 minutes to lose your momentum. With short waits I didn’t have much time to catch my breath before shooting - I won’t say it wrecked my shooting but it was harder than standing calmly at the range.
Guns:
Rifle -- Colt 6933 (11.5” factory SBR) with a 1-4x Accupoint, MI rail, Magpul plastic. It was the best combo of light weight and magnification I could put together with what I had at the house (it normally wears an aimpoint, and the accupoint lives on a heavier rifle). I could have shaved a couple more ounces by dropping the Redi-Mod and light (streamlight in a WOTG mount), but didn’t bother. It was still a lot lighter than my other rifle. Since you had to run the rifle empty, I should have asked if I could run with a mag in the Redimag - that would have sped things up at the stages as well (since you had to load at start of time). Sling was a padded Vickers attached to the outboard of the stock and muzzle end of the rail. I’m happy with the whole setup, and can’t pin any particular difficulties on it. I had a 1st round hit at 500 with it (we’ll ignore it took me a couple misses to get the next 2 hits, though ;) ) After, the spotter said my misses were in the dirt in front of the target; I was having a little trouble with the hold over with the triangle on top of a post at that range.
Pistol -- Just a Gen4 Glock 19, which was also no problems. Stock, with 10-8 sights.
Ammo -- Federal XM193 in the brown boxes.
Ammo Management -- I screwed up twice by not getting my ammo situation squared away and re-staged after , which resulted in reloading on the clock. Not a huge deal except of my bag setup required a lot more effort turns a reload into a 10-15 second event. Once rifle, and once pistol. The pistol reload was especially painful because I had a pretty decent rhythm going and ran dry at the last plate on the dueling tree, and I knew it was coming because of miss/failure to swing earlier in the string (still my fault for having a miss, though).
Gear:
Load carriage -- I was all over the map with this up until the end. Final answer to was keep my belt slick except for a Raven OWB strong side, and then carry everything in a Maxpedition Kodiak S-type sling pack. I put one Tactical Tailor M4 shingle on the outside for quick access and stashed the other two mags where I could slide it to my left side and access them like a messenger bag (sorta). While this was a workable reload, it wasn’t as fast as a proper pouch on my body would have been - which ended up biting me a couple times... I also used my front left pocket for my half-empty rifle mag for much of the 2nd half and that worked surprisingly well.
The sling-type pack - probably not an ideal choice, but as I discovered if you’re slow enough it doesn’t flop, then it doesn’t matter. Or something like that. The small strap that stabilizes it helps a lot. Aside from the potential running issues, it worked well, in that I’m right handed up but choose the left-handed “S-type” setup so it slips to my left side to access left handed without hanging up on a strong side (or appendix) holster. During the longer movements (it seems unfair for me to call them “runs”, :p ) I slipped my sling to the left side and rolled the gun to tension against me, which put the pack on one shoulder and gun on the other.
Clothing - I didn’t do anything special here, I don’t have any special running gear or anything. I wore some of the lighter weight (not heavy cotton duck) Carhartt carpenter-type pants, a Nike dry-fit shirt, and cotton long-sleeve shirt over that. Wilderness frequent flier belt. A well-worn pair of Merrell Moab Ventilator Mids for shoes - these fill up with water faster than the Titanic if you step in a creek, but since it was warmer I took my chances, and kept them dry until the very last creek crossing before the finish. Also, I wore regular ol’ cotton socks and underwear - I have come to understand this is a faux pas. If this ever gets me “killed in da streets” I expect someone to take up a class-action suit against Haynes.
PPE -- I used “no roll” push-in type earplugs, which are easy to don/doff and still have good NRR rating. And weigh nothing. For eyepro, I got a nice set of M-frames for Christmas, which I left at home and wore my old Half-Jackets instead, because I prefer the VR28 lenses for cloudy or shady varying conditions - which there were a lot of running through the woods. However on at least two of the stages they fogged badly when I got down on the gun and I had to stop and flip them up to see.
Fitness and running -- Traditionally my idea of “conditioning” is using a 2-n-1 shampoo. This hurt me more than anything. I was pretty gassed halfway through the run to the first stage (which was one of the two longest stretches), and then did a lot of fast walking throughout the rest of the event; I would try to bump it back up to a jog and find I was jogging so slow it was just a really inefficient way of walking. I’ve always hated running/cardio type work. Prior to signing up in mid October I was on a very intermittent cardio schedule via indoor bike at the work gym (which itself was a pretty recent addition to my routine), and some very light bodyweight work at home in the evenings. I ticked up the cardio a bit after signing up and was pretty consistent on moving over to the treadmill at the work gym....for a few weeks. Was off work - and away from that gym - during the holidays, and had a round of bronchitis in there as well, been doing a little rowing machine work (a recent purchase) but it’s in the bedroom where my wife has been recovering from surgery, while i’ve been single-parenting in her absence...I’m full of excuses for this one, but they all stink. I knew coming in that the run component would suck at my level of (lack of) preparation. As a solo competitor I’m glad to have finished...as part of imaginary “Team Pistol-Forum” I’m dragging down the average. Nowhere to go but up from here!
Misc:
Water -- I carried too much. I drank 24oz but started with 64 IIRC. It was in bottles in my pack, rather than a camelback setup. I used the small 8oz bottles because they were easy to pack, grab, and avoid sloshing with half-empties. I ate light the night before and morning of, focusing on just being hydrated. I didn’t perceive any water- or food-related issues.
Post event -- I’ve been a little sore today, but not too bad. Lower shins and in my quads.

There’s plenty of minutia to discuss around gun and gear selection - like how the 500yd shot requirement starts driving the gun setup disproportionately vs. the other stages, or the finer nuances of belt setups vs. chest rigs while running, or a whole thread worth of AR sling methodologies.

Riffing off of something FOG (I think) said after dinner, one can -and many do - look at this as a “gear test” kind of event. However you run the risk of some false conclusions because perfectly good gear may not work ideally for this very specific competition. Likewise the ideal gear configuration for the competition is probably not the one any of us would choose if we knew we had to actually go shoot at commie invaders or whatever. Gear testing is fine; being hyper competitive is fine, and somewhere in between is fine -- you just have to keep your inputs and outputs correctly framed within the context of the event.

It’s good to have one’s ego crushed every now and again, right? Failure can be a powerful teacher and motivator. There’s the frequently-quoted (to the point of near cliché) statement about not rising to the occasion but defaulting to training, but still we often enter things like this hoping we’ll end up somehow doing better than we know we’re actually prepared to perform. I don’t think I came in with any unrealistic expectations - but I still wish I would have done better. But now I’ve got a great baseline assessment to build upon and use as motivation. It's not different that first time you went to a USPSA match, thought "oh i'm a pretty good shooter, right?" and then were blown away by the guys who've put in the work to be really good.

And last, but certainly not least, a big congrats to SLG and Bratch for their wins, and everyone else for putting put a really strong showing. You guys all kick ass.

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This was my first biathlon event ever. I had previously participated in two OCRs, both in approximately the 10k length, and had just finished the 2016 Houston Marathon at a 12:15 pace. I have had over 120 hours of formal pistol training from various well-reputed instructors, and 12 hours of formal rifle training. Training for the event was mostly just what was done in preparation for the marathon (primarily long runs, which was done mostly for the mental side of things rather than physical improvement) and several 10k runs with kit on. I had attempted to establish dope for 500 yards, but was stymied by 20 MPH wind and uncertain target distances on the occasion I was able to get out to a long range range.

I wore an Outdoor Research Ignitor short sleeve shirt, OR Ferrosi Pants, Under Armour Boxerjocks, Smartwool PhD Run Light Mini Socks, Arc'teryx H·150 Riggers Belt and Salomon XA Pro 3D Ultra 2 GTX. PPE used were Oakley M-Frames 3.0, MSA Sordin Supreme Pro-X with gel earpads and OC Tactical headband, and OR Firemark gloves. I wore the eye pro throughout the entirety of the course, while the ear pro was slipped through my suspenders during the run. A Suunto Ambit2 Sapphire was used to navigate (since FOG got lost last year) and to keep track of wait times.

My pistol was my H&K P30LS with the Grayguns Reduced Reset Carry Perfection Package carried in condition 1, with X400 Ultra - Green lasers/lights mounted with the DG-11 and zeroed for 25 yards. Sights were the Trijicon RMR RM06 mounted by L&M Precision, with Dawson Precision suppressor height tritium front sights and Ameriglo suppressor height rear sight mounted behind the RMR. Lube was SLiP2000 EWL, magazines were modified with Taylor Freelance Border Special +5 magazine extensions with the included Wolff springs.

My rifle was an AR-15; the upper was a PWS MK110 Mod 1 (with a Surefire SFMB-556 and AXTS Raptor), while I personally put together the lower (AXTS AX556 lower with mostly LWRC small parts, Vltor A5 RE, Slash's Heavy Buffers A5 with custom weights, Geissele SD-C, Magpul CTR, IKH SLAP, BCM Mod 1 Grip, BAD ASS, Sprinco Green Spring). Accessories on the rifle were as follows: Surefire M600 Ultra with an SR07 on an IWC Keymod Thorntail, Aimpoint T-2 2MOA on a GDI MT6-OSM with TD iO, EOTech G33, Magpul MBUS Pro, SOB QD Bitch sling, Surefire SOCOM556-RC, Warsport Suppressor Sock, and Magpul rail ladders. Lube was FIREClean, magazines used were Lancer AWMs, with Magpuls mounted sideways. Zero was for 100 yards.

I used a TYR Tactical XFrame Brokos belt with their Assaulter's Base Belt-Tail and Emdom-MM Battle Suspenders; I removed the soft armor insert for the run. Attached to the battle belt, from the left side moving counter-clockwise, were ITW FastMag Pistol, ITW Gen3 FastMag, another FastMag with a FastMag Pistol mounted on top of it, BFG Ten-Speed Single M4 Magazine Pouch, a Gear Keeper retractable pistol lanyard, the Safariland 6004 on a UFA, and the Dark Angel Medical D.A.R.K.. I carried a total of 90 rounds of Federal XM193, 58 rounds of Remington UMC 9mm 115 gr., and no water.

The pistol was carried in the 6004, which was mounted as a super-high, single-strap drop leg. The rifle was slung over my back, stock at my left shoulder, ejection port out, muzzle facing down and right (rear sweep), with the sling tightened as much as possible.

The day started in the low 30s °F, with registration starting at approximately 0800. After registration, I bummed around with the PF crowd until the event started; LOKNLOD was slated to start very early, while Bratch, his friend, and I were middling, with SLG more toward the end. After LOKNLOD left, we sat around and were lectured by SLG on the wonders of the low-carb, high-fat diet (http://realmealrevolution.com/); most of us also were eating a bit at that point (I had a Mountain House Blueberry and Granola meal). By chance, Bratch's friend went to the restroom and learned that our bunch of three was like 5 minutes from go time, so we scrambled to get our stuff ready; this was probably around ~1045, though my recollection could be totally off. I believe each runner's start was separated by about 5 minutes.

At my time of start, it felt like it was in the mid 50s °F. I was able to run all the way to the first station, which was approximately 2.5 miles on a gravel road with gentle hills; I would guess that I was probably making a good 11:30 to 12:00 pace. I also ran into LOKNLOD on this stretch, where he cryptically warned me to "watch out for the slippery parts".


10K Only Bonus Stage 1 -- “Not my Gun” On “fire” command shooter must load 3 shells into shotgun that will be provided. Shooter must hit three targets, set down shotgun, draw pistol and hit two pistol targets. (if shooter does not make three shotgun hits, he must use pistol to make those up) 3s, 2pThere was no wait for this station. I was relatively slow with my shotgun manipulations, as I have had almost zero exposure to that platform; still, one of the easiest stages, objectively, as I was still fairly fresh and the pistol targets were quite large. Afterwards, I advanced to the next stage, and was running on a wooded trail, with one small creek crossing.


Stage 1 -- “Targets in the Trees” On “fire” command shooter may load rifle and engage five 8" steel targets at short range in the woods. Two hits per target required, shooter must stay within marked boundaries on firing line. 10rThere was a bit of a wait for this station; I recall it being around 10 to 15 minutes, and I believe Bratch and his friend ran into me at this stage during the wait. I did not have too much trouble with this stage. I then advanced to the next stage, still on a wooded path. During this juncture, there was another creek crossing, followed by a steep embankment; here, I managed to drop my ear pro into the creek, which seemed like an annoyance, but turned out to be a blessing, as it helped cool me off when I donned the ear pro.


Stage 2 -- “Rifleman’s Quarter Mile” (a.k.a. "Simo's Stage") On “fire” command shooter may load rifle and engage one full-size torso target at approximately 500 yards. Three hits required. 3rThis was probably the longest or second longest wait I had, at 25 to 30 minutes, which gave me some time to catch my breath. This was also the shooting stage I was most worried about. Luckily, there was little to no wind at that point, so I started out by trying to walk my rounds in. Unfortunately, my first attempt to do that failed miserably, and I wound up sending a round over the berm, which forced the RSOs to call a ceasefire to correct me (no calls on where the shots landed were provided beyond that); on my second attempt to walk, after I figured out where to hold, I surprised my self by ringing the steel 3 times in 4 shots. I shot this stage with a magazine monopod and with some sling tension. Then, it was off to the next stage, which was fairly rough terrain, with yet another creek crossing, lots of vegetation to contend with, steep embankments that had me pause to do some route-finding, etc.


10K Only Bonus Stage 2 -- “Outnumbered but not Outgunned” On “fire” command shooter may load rifle and engage two steel plates at approximately 50 yards, get two hits each, advance to a second position, get two hits each, advance to a third position, get two more hits each. 12rThere was almost no wait here. I did terrible at this stage, as I was holding slightly too high at the start, and the fatigue in my arms prevented me from going with fast follow-up shots, as I was shooting off hand. After finishing this stage, I then headed back toward the road, for a ~1.5 mile run back toward the start on the gravel road. Here, I was starting to overheat, and ended up walking the uphill portions, while jogging the flats and downhills; I ran into SLG on his way out on this portion of the trail.


Stage 3 “Fast and Flexible” On “fire” command shooter may load rifle and engage steel target approximately 150 yards away through each of seven marked holes in barrier. Shooter will then advance to truck and get one more hit from specified boundary. 8rThere was another long wait here, rivaling (if not exceeding) Stage 2's wait. The barrier here was a VTAC target, which happened to be placed on the crest of a small hill, so many people had problems with reaching the top slot; the RSOs provided a cinderblock to stand on if needed, which wasn't exactly the most stable shooting platform. Several of the ports were in poor shape, most likely due to damage from muzzle brakes. This was by far my worse stage, as I was simply unable to get that first port for the longest time. Eventually, I got frustrated and just rammed my whole rifle as far through the port as possible, and got my hits then. The next couple of ports were also extremely aggravating, until I finally decided to use my magnifier, and then I suddenly started getting first shot hits.


Stage 4 -- “Shootout” On “fire” command shooter may draw pistol and engage dueling tree targets. He must hit all six on one side, then hit them again to flip them back. 12pThere was no wait at this stage. I did not do as well as I had hoped, mainly because the 5th plate somehow eluded me for a good 6 rounds or more. I also managed to faceplant after finishing the stage; I was all kitted up and leaving for the next stage, and then tripped over one of the guidelines, breaking the fall with my face (not really).


Shooter must pick up ammo can at “ammo dump” on the way to stage 5. Ammo can must be delivered to base of flagpole to start Stage5.As SLG noted, the 20mm ammo can was fairly light, until one started to climb up the hill to Stage 5. Then, it seemed infinitely heavy.


Stage 5 -- “Take the Hill and Keep It” On “fire” command shooter may draw pistol and engage three targets, two hits each, holster pistol, load rifle and engage steel plate at approximately 200 yds., then get one hit on eight-inch plate at approximately 150 yds. 6p, 3rAgain, no wait. I had trouble with the last target, due to the wind that had picked up. Afterwards, it was the final home stretch. Near the end, there was a mud pit of sorts; some of the smarter runners just went around it. I tried to test how deep the mud was, and ended up with my right leg ankle deep in it, so I was pot committed at that point, and just powered through it; I didn't mind, as I had brought fresh socks and shoes (or so I thought; I forgot the shoes at the hotel). I eventually made it to the finish, and turned in my card.

After that, I changed into fresh, normal clothes (with the exception of my muddy Salomons), and ate the meal provided by the event (a very basic Frito pie). We sat around enjoying the weather (a fine mid 60s °F) and each other's company until the award ceremony. It was at the award ceremony that we finally linked up with FOG, as we were not able to figure out which bearded white male he was (there was one guy that Bratch, SLG, and LOKNLOD all asked on separate occasions as to whether or not he was FOG). Some of the door prizes given out were actually quite nice, such as an NFA trust or a half-case of Gold Dots.

Gear-wise, I had only a few issues, most of which I was already aware of and was willing to deal with. Running a suppressed shorty as my gun was a conscious decision to use my go-to rifle; besides the excessive drop on the 500 yard range, the only other issues I had was the magnifier mount rubbing my back raw, and the sling rubbing my neck raw, both of which I was aware was going to be a consequence. I probably should have worn a real running shirt for slightly better wicking/ventilation; I have had issues overheating running in mid 60s °F at night with running shorts and shirt, so throwing on kit and pants and running during the day only made it worse. I remain unsure about my decision to not run with water, not because of hydration issues, but because I could have poured the water on myself to cool down. The only unexpected major problem was my sling catching on my RipShears, and thus getting cut up; not enough to affect the run, but I did end up replacing it once I got home. The other unexpected problem was quite minor; one of the rounds popped out of the magazine and into the TenSpeed pouch when I played musical chairs with the mags to find the mag with the most rounds and put it into the front-most FastMag.

I was somewhat disappointed in my running, as I was hoping to be able to run the whole way with zero walking, but that did not occur; I probably walked about ~20% of the course? My rifle shooting was abysmal, and I hope to be able to do much better than next time, though I was pleasantly surprised that I did not DQ out of the 500 yard shot. I suspect my actual running time is probably in the mid 80 minutes to the mid 90 minutes, and that they perhaps just forgot to remove the wait times? Whatevs.

Overall, I expended 75 rounds of rifle for what was suppose to be a 36 hit course of fire, and 31 rounds of pistol for what was suppose to be an 18 hit course of fire. No malfunctions occurred.

For those of you interested in attending, the hotel in Pawnee, the Pecan Grove Motel, was rather rinky dink, but it was clean, cheap, very close to the event, and had free, albeit slow, WiFi. I would stay there again for my next event. It's also within spitting distance of Click's Steakhouse, which was absolutely delicious and fairly priced.

The event itself I thought was decently organized, although there were some areas that could have been improved. As SLG noted, a staggered registration time would have been nice, as some of the people starting late would be sitting around for hours before they start. Also, there was some over-reliance on the fact that they were running a cold range, as I saw some poor muzzle discipline during some of the waits at the station. And, obviously, some of the scoring seemed like it could use some double checking.

Overall, a very fun event, and one I would recommend for those can make it out there, at least for winter; I'm still undecided if I'm masochistic enough to try for the summer one, too.

[SLG]

D,

I am a cool aid drinker on the high fat stuff, sorry! Good review of the shooting stages. Makes me want to do it again!

I didn't realize you took no water. I carried 32oz, and drank about 20. If this was July, how much water would you have carried?

[Default.mp3]

I didn't realize you took no water. I carried 32oz, and drank about 20. If this was July, how much water would you have carried?Honestly, no idea, it'd be something I'd have tested in my training before hand, though I would imagine at least a 100 oz. bladder, with some of it being ice. I've found that I'm usually fairly light on water consumption while doing stuff, whether it be running, doing jits, or rucking; it's the damn heat that I need to work on. My first couple of times running in the heat, I noticed that drinking water didn't really help my performance, but running through a sprinkler system would allow me to speed back up for a couple minutes, until the water all evaporated. Part of the problem is that I take forever to start sweating; during the summer, there'd be multiple times I'd try to run my usual 10k route, start out well-hydrated, and I'd be dead due to overheating by mile 3, and yet I would be barely sweating. I just need to cowboy up and force myself to acclimate, I suppose.

[SLG]

I remember talking to you about this a little on Sat. That is a strange combination of physical traits to deal with. Like you, I start out well hydrated and need to drink very little throughout an event, but unlike you, drinking helps my body cool off, so that works for me. I really believe that many people over-hydrate during an event, but if you are too hot, then maybe more cool water would be good. What about those bandanas with the cooling crystals that you wet to keep cool for a few hours? Maybe try one around your neck?

In the summer, I intend to carry around 100oz, but I really don't think I'll need more than 64, based on my hydration needs and habits. Don't want to carry too much, but definitely don't want to suffer for having too little. The best way to carry water though, is in your belly!

[Default.mp3]

I remember talking to you about this a little on Sat. That is a strange combination of physical traits to deal with. Like you, I start out well hydrated and need to drink very little throughout an event, but unlike you, drinking helps my body cool off, so that works for me. I really believe that many people over-hydrate during an event, but if you are too hot, then maybe more cool water would be good. What about those bandanas with the cooling crystals that you wet to keep cool for a few hours? Maybe try one around your neck?Yeah, my running friends find me a freak in that sense; I've done plenty of LSDs or even hard, 90% runs with them and not take a single sip until the end and feel fine... as long as the weather was sub 60 °F. I remember last summer, on a range day, I as abso-fucking-lutely miserable because I was just so over-heated, despite drinking a bottle of water like every 15 minutes, and pissing clear every 30, and we were mostly just standing around. As for the bandanna idea, what I have tried was leaving a bucket of ice water out in front of my house and dipping my regular bandanna in it every mile lap and wrap it around my neck, and it'd help for about a bit, but I'd still be way under my cold weather performance. The ice-crystal ones might be able to retain the cold longer, so it might help more, will have to give that a shot.

[LOKNLOD]

One of the competitors (who came in from TN, I think) posted up a short video from his POV cam on another forum. Thought some of you might be interested. He's running a FAL for you, SLG.


https://youtu.be/_L7U8M0_1UI

Cameo from some of the PF crew in the background, too.

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Ticket sales will open for the July Run N Gun on March 15th. There are a few changes - registration will open at 7:30 and close at 8:30. Safety briefing will start at 8:30, those not registered by then will not be allowed to run, so please be on time! Also, the 5k registration is limited to 45 runners, 10k is limited to 70. I look forward to seeing y'all there, I'm ready for a hot, safe run!Ugh. I'm at a soft 80% for signing up for summer. no regrats

[LOKNLOD]

Ugh. I'm at a soft 80% for signing up for summer. no regrats

I'm thinking about signing up for the 5k for the summer run. A little extra shooting wasn't worth the extra running :cool:

Of course, I'm not traveling as much to get there.

[LOKNLOD]

This just popped up as another option in the area. Don't know any more about it than this, yet.

http://alexarms.com/?event=central-oklahoma-5k-run-n-gun-saturday-may-21-2016

EtA: Checking the map, this is 9 miles down the county road from my parent's house. Practically my backyard.

Expect lots of sandburrs and bullnettles.

Eta2:
Sounds more obstacle-focused than Pawnee and higher round count too.... 125 rifle/125 pistol? That's a lot of pistol mags to carry.

[OkieHeat]

Cool,it looks to be about 45 min from my house. If work don't get in the way i will be there.

[Bratch]

I'm on the fence for July not sure I want to deal with the heat. My buddy is out for BJJ Master Worlds in August, worried about injuring himself before the tournament.

[SLG]

I'm going to try and make it. heat is good. Cold is good. It's all good.

[Jeep]

I'm going to try and make it. heat is good. Cold is good. It's all good.

I had instructors like you at Ranger School. My impression was that they had lost their sanity years before. Unfortunately, before they could be certified and locked away in padded rooms, they insisted on trying to teach us why running long distances with rucksacks, rifles and gear was "all good." Personally, I thought it was pretty much all bad.

[FOG]

This just popped up as another option in the area. Don't know any more about it than this, yet.

http://alexarms.com/?event=central-oklahoma-5k-run-n-gun-saturday-may-21-2016

EtA: Checking the map, this is 9 miles down the county road from my parent's house. Practically my backyard.

Expect lots of sandburrs and bullnettles.

Eta2:
Sounds more obstacle-focused than Pawnee and higher round count too.... 125 rifle/125 pistol? That's a lot of pistol mags to carry.
I did that one last May. Not very organized but it was during a flood season so that didn't help matters. They were real undermanned staff wise, maybe 4 RO's... total. Good folks though, I'm sure they've made improvements. Pawnee and Pecos will spoil a man b/c they run pretty smooth.

Sent from my SM-G900R4 using Tapatalk

[LOKNLOD]

I did that one last May. Not very organized but it was during a flood season so that didn't help matters. They were real undermanned staff wise, maybe 4 RO's... total. Good folks though, I'm sure they've made improvements. Pawnee and Pecos will spoil a man b/c they run pretty smooth.

Sent from my SM-G900R4 using Tapatalk

I'm going to keep an eye on it...location would make logistics really easy for me. Might be good timing to test development towards prepping for summer run.

[FOG]

6214

Run couse was rolling hills through thick pastures.

Sent from my SM-G900R4 using Tapatalk

[SLG]

I had instructors like you at Ranger School. My impression was that they had lost their sanity years before. Unfortunately, before they could be certified and locked away in padded rooms, they insisted on trying to teach us why running long distances with rucksacks, rifles and gear was "all good." Personally, I thought it was pretty much all bad.

I take that as a tremendous compliment, thank you.

[HCM]

I'm going to try and make it. heat is good. Cold is good. It's all good.

Mind over matter /mental toughness ?

[Jeep]

Mind over matter /mental toughness ?

Well, they say, "if you don't mind, it don't matter." Unfortunately the obverse is true also.

[Jeep]

I take that as a tremendous compliment, thank you.

There is a statue to one of those guys--the most charismatic guy I ever met--at Fort Bragg: http://docsouth.unc.edu/commland/monument/398/. He would have fully approved of your view.

[SLG]

There is a statue to one of those guys--the most charismatic guy I ever met--at Fort Bragg: http://docsouth.unc.edu/commland/monument/398/. He would have fully approved of your view.

Did you serve with Meadows? That is pretty awesome. I read about him growing up, and would have loved to meet him.

[Jeep]

Did you serve with Meadows? That is pretty awesome. I read about him growing up, and would have loved to meet him.

He was deputy commander of the Florida Ranger Camp when I went through. We had all heard about him from Son Tay, of course, but all of the other instructors, who mostly were veterans of SOG, the "projects" or one of the Mike Forces, were in absolute awe of him. They told us what apparently were the correct versions of the public stories.

Anyway, we met him after finishing our SERE training. We were dead-tired (still desperately in need of make up sleep from the mountains even before SERE), physically beat up and thoroughly down. We were roasting in one of those aluminum buildings in Florida waiting for our instructor. In walks Meadows. His salt and pepper hair was a bit longer than any other instructors' and he looked (and was) older than the others, but he had a huge smile on his face. He then launched into a speech about how incredibly privileged he felt to be instructing us, how privileged we were to be in Ranger School and how we were learning to utterly dominate America's foes. By the end of the talk he had us (literally--and I mean literally) jumping up and down on our tables screaming "Ranger!" and we came out of that crummy little building believing that we could beat anyone.

A very dark night or two later, as my patrol was lost somewhere in the floodwaters of the Yellow River (which had gone far over its banks), Meadows infiltrated our patrol. Don't ask me how he did it. We didn't know where we were (no landmarks with the flooding). Our instructors didn't know where we were. But he found us, infiltrated, eventually led us to dry land, sat us down and then led us through each of our mistakes and how to do it right next time. No yelling. No subtracting points. He was positive the whole time, and after that the patrol did much better. After a few hours, Meadows disappeared into the night. We saw him repeatedly thereafter in Florida and he was always the same. Encouraging, not belittling. Treating us as colleagues, not the rank neophytes we were. Wherever he was, things got better.

He never knew me, of course, and I only "knew" him those three weeks. But he was the finest soldier and the finest leader I ever met. In fact, after he talked to us, I'd even believe that running in full gear was "all good" because he was that convincing.

The institutional United States Army at the time, however, had little use for him. The Pentagon had no use for Special Forces operators and the reason that he and all those other SOG guys were teaching at Ranger School was because the Infantry School was protecting them and found an excellent use for their talents. Meadows--perhaps the finest special operator in US history (and there is a lot of competition for that title, for example then-Captain Robert Howard was an instructor during the Benning Phase)--was denied promotion to LTC and a few years later forced out of the Army.

Anyway, I've met a lot of amazing people in my life but no one else like him.

[LOKNLOD]

Tickets for the summer event are up, and going fast.

https://www.eventbrite.com/e/pawnee-summer-run-n-gun-2016-tickets-22557952443

[Bratch]

I think I'm going to sit this one out boys, we had some unexpected bills come up and I have a small but lingering injury that shouldn't be a problem but could rear its ugly head.

[dkv]

This has me inspired. It's a long haul from CT but this race is on my 6-36 month window. When I daydream, I think about carrying the rifle. Anyone have experience with a biathlon-style sling, as referenced by a poster earlier in this thread:


Here is some info on a Biathalon Sling. I have no experience with it, but it is another way to carry the rifle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1cUOMIzG3Y

Here's a thread from arfcom with a (I think) homemade AR15 biathlon sling. https://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=19&t=613940

I was thinking about mounting two padded slings to an AR, carrying it muzzle down - so the padded sections of the slings function as padded shoulder straps.

Lastly, anyone heard of the Waffenlauf? A swiss marathon-length race with a ruck and rifle, but no shooting, sadly. That holds no appeal for me.

[SLG]

Got my ticket the other night:-)

Sorry to hear you won't make it Bratch.

[littlejerry]

I've had a draft of this AAR sitting on my laptop for a few months now. Finally just got a chance to re-read and post it.

I've included a few links to photos from the OK Run N Gun site. I'm intentionally not embedding images.

Preparation:
I ran the previous summer race in July of 2015. It was a major wake-up call as to what level my fitness was at. The short story is that I spent a significant amount of time laying on the side of the road due to overheating. My "run" time in the summer was 180 minutes. My other big failure was DNF'ing the 500 yard stage. 55gr 223, irons, and 20MPH crosswinds got the better of me.

Leading up to this race I focused my efforts on running fitness and long range shooting. In January I worked my weekly mileage up to 20-25 miles per week spread across 4-5 runs. My average training pace was still very slow around 9:30-10:00 per mile. I did almost zero training with weight but was doing 1-2 runs on mountain bike trails every week.

Gear:
I ran most of the same gear as last time, but I did upgrade my rifle last fall in preparation for this race.

LBE:
Cheap Condor brand chest rig with integrated hydration pack
It's 8 columns wide and I attached a 6 mag rifle pouch(2 rows of 3) and 2 pistol pouches. The extra rifle pouches I used to carry my stopwatch, scorecard, extra earplugs.
Source bladder with 1.5 liters of water

Rifle:
Sionics 16" medium profile CL barrel
ALG EMR handguard
Geiselle G2S trigger
Vortex Viper PST 1-4x in an Aero Precision mount
BFG 2 point sling

Pistol:
Glock 19 Gen 3
Sevigny comp sights(FO front)
Safariland GLS holster

Ammo:
120 rounds of IMI Mk262 (4 Pmags)
60 rounds of Fiocchi 115gr (3 oem mags with 2 +2 OEM extensions and 1 Taran +4)

Clothing:
Generic compression tee
Lightweight Arcteryx hiking pants
Nike trail running shoes
Volund Atlas G-hook belt



Race Day:
Weather was fantastic. I spent a decent amount of time training in 20 degree weather leading up to the race. This turned out to be completely unnecessary. In the morning it was in the 40's and by the time I ran it was ~60 degrees. I would have preferred to run in the 40's but 60 is just fine. I opted not to carry a phone and track my run with GPS; I didn’t want to worry about damaging the phone on any obstacles.

My start time was right at 12:30 which coincidentally was the same as the summer run. I started off strong and maintained a good pace for the first ~3 mile stretch leading to the first shooting stage. The road was nearly empty. I passed 1 other competitor on this portion of the run.

Bonus Stage 1:
On “fire” command shooter must load 3 shells into shotgun that will be provided. Shooter must hit three targets, set down shotgun, draw pistol and hit two pistol targets. (if shooter does not make three shotgun hits, he must use pistol to make those up) 3s, 2p

I arrived winded but ready to go. I rarely use shotguns so I was slow getting it into action and hitting the targets. There was a Mossberg and Remington sitting on the bench. I tried to think back to which one I had actually used ~5 years ago; I picked up the 870 and loaded it… slowly. I didn't miss anything, just slow. Score was 54%

Stage 1:
On “fire” command shooter may load rifle and engage five 8" steel targets at short range in the woods. Two hits per target required, shooter must stay within marked boundaries on firing line. 10r

I passed 2 runners in the woods on the way to Stage 1. I arrived winded again but in better shape than stage 1. There was a brief 20 second wait while someone finished the stage in front of me. I had a complete brain-fart and stood completely still on this stage. I could have moved around and shot from a better position; instead I stood there and shot the whole thing offhand. Took 1-2 makeup shots. Score was 87%.

Stage 2:
On “fire” command shooter may load rifle and engage one full-size torso target at approximately 500 yards. Three hits required. 3r

500 yard stage:
http://www.okrunngun.com/#!dsc_8819_24693878796_o/zoom/cojx/dataItem-ik36g5o6

There was a lot of terrain to cover to get to Stage 2. Multiple creek crossings, hills, and thick brush. I ran as much as I could manage to safely.
Some of the creek crossings:
http://www.okrunngun.com/#!dsc_8791_24602333232_o/zoom/cojx/dataItem-ik36g5ok1

http://www.okrunngun.com/#!dsc_8799_24093272163_o/zoom/cojx/dataItem-ik36g5oj

At one point I ran across a creek at the wrong spot(the trail ran directly into the creek, but turned sharp left instead of crossing it). Once I was climbing up the other side I realized my error and went back. I may have lost 20-30 seconds here. I passed 1 competitor in the woods who was winded and taking a knee to regain his composure. I arrived at stage 2 with no wait. Once the timer started I was glacially slow getting into position, turning my scope up to 4X, flipping up the lens caps, and dialing in 11MOA of elevation. I fired 3 rounds and got 3 hits on the 500 yard silhouette. I was very happy with this but felt like I took too much time. My score was 87%(again).

Bonus Stage II:
On “fire” command shooter may load rifle and engage two steel plates at approximately 50 yards, get two hits each, advance to a second position, get two hits each, advance to a third position, get two more hits each. 12r

On the way to Bonus II there was a brief stint on the main road. I ran this portion at a faster pace because I knew it was short. In the woods I ran as much as I could. My memory here is a bit fuzzy, but I believe there was another competitor I passed. I arrived at Bonus II with no wait time. I had a difficult time understanding the RO because he spoke so softly and I left my earplugs in. As soon as the stage started there was a target malfunction. 1 of the 2 plates fell off it's hanger. The RO then directed me to continue on and put all rounds on the remaining plate. This caused a minor brain fart where every time I put 2 rounds on the 1 plate I started to move again instead of reengaging to make up for the lost plate. I took a few makeup shots here; not sure if I was just rushing or if rounds were grazing the grass and getting knocked off target. Score was 72%

The run back to the main property was definitely more difficult than the run out. I could tell that my body was fatigued at this point and my legs definitely didn't want to move as fast as they had earlier. There was 1 long uphill section which I walked the tail-end of.

http://www.okrunngun.com/#!dsc_8928_24424475890_o/zoom/cojx/dataItem-ik36g5nr
Photo of the hill that never ends

I think this was a mental failure on my part; the hill isn't large it just appears to never end as you are running up it. There was also 1 shorter uphill section which I briefly walked. This time I triumphantly ran past the spot I had passed out on in the summer. The ground leveled out after this point and I picked up the pace.


Stage 3:
On “fire” command shooter may load rifle and engage steel target approximately 150 yards away through each of seven marked holes in barrier. Shooter will then advance to truck and get one more hit from specified boundary. 8r

Photo of VTAC stage:
http://www.okrunngun.com/#!dsc_8409_24093415733_o/zoom/cojx/dataItem-ik36g5pi

I arrived at stage 3 tired and winded from the faster run. I was very lucky to find a long wait. There were ~6-8 shooters in front of me when I arrived and my wait time was nearly 30 minutes. This was the perfect time to cool down and rest before the final 3 stages and quick sprints. The VTAC board was sitting on a slight rise in the ground which put it ~6-8 inches higher than normal. I was given the option to stand on a concrete block which I declined. I was able to hold the rifle sideways and still see through the scope from the top port. Because of the extra height I was able to shoot all of the ports(Except the bottom) with my legs straight up and bending over from my waist up. I made 2 makeup shots on this stage. Score was 95%

Stage 4:
On “fire” command shooter may draw pistol and engage dueling tree targets. He must hit all six on one side, then hit them again to flip them back. 12p

Feeling fresh from my long wait on stage 3, I ran as fast as I could to stage 4. I arrived winded but was ready to go. There was no wait time. A few of the plates on the dueling tree didn't flip on the first hit, so I took some extra shots. Score was 87%

Stage 5:
On “fire” command shooter may draw pistol and engage three targets, two hits each, holster pistol, load rifle and engage steel plate at approximately 200 yds., then get one hit on eight-inch plate at approximately 150 yds. 6p, 3r

The run to the final stage was short, but near the end you had to carry a large ammo can half-full of rocks to the top of the hill.

The ammo can:
http://www.okrunngun.com/#!dsc_8990_24093125393_o/zoom/cojx/dataItem-ik36g5ne1

This can seemed significantly lighter than the summer, but my memory could be incorrect. I was lucky at the top to find a brief 2-3 minute wait before I shot. This gave me plenty of time to recover. The wind really picked up here though and it felt like it was 15-25mph. The wind was significant enough that it made standing and shooting offhand difficult. I missed a few rounds on the 200 yard silhouette; I think this was from clipping the grass in front of my barrel. When I transitioned to the small plate at 150 yards both I and the RO realized it had been blow sideways by the wind. The RO, not knowing what to do, instructed to me to shoot in the general vicinity of where it was. I fired 3-4 rounds where I thought it was and got no hits. Someone behind us was yelling at the RO to call time. The RO then instructed me to take a makeup shot on the large silhouette and that would be enough. I took 1 shots and he called time. I think I unfairly lost time on this stage. Oh well, life's not fair. Score was 73%.

Last position to shoot from in the race:
http://www.okrunngun.com/#!dsc_9040_24091762284_o/zoom/cojx/dataItem-ik36g5na1

The last run to the finish line was fast. The course went through a muddy area which slowed me down(didn't want to slip and fall). After that it was a long uphill section which I ran as hard as I could.

Results:

Run time: 103.47, 79%
Shoot Score: 79%
Final Score: 79%, 10th place overall

I had 2 goals going into this race: run the entire thing and place in the top 10. I achieved one of those(just barely) and came close on the other. After the race I felt pretty good which made me question if I had pushed myself hard enough. I definitely felt tired and stiff the next day though… Maybe I could have pushed a little harder?

Being an engineer I obsess over numbers and performance. I did some number crunching afterward to determine how I'd place better in the future. My conclusion was that the biggest area for improvement is running. The shooting score is an average of 7 events. The top shooter scored 92% on his average shooting score, leaving a small delta for me to climb. My 79% shoot score also was better than 5 of the top 10 competitors. On the run I was the 2nd slowest in the top 10. If I knocked 10-15 minutes off my run time I'd be fighting for 4-6 place. 1-6th place all had run times of 90 minutes or less.

Even though there were 2 stages which brought down my average score, I've run the numbers assuming I'd scored higher(80%) and it wouldn't have affected my final ranking. In this competition you really need a competitive run time to crack the top 3 or even 5 spots.

Next steps:

My mentality going into this race is that it's a personal challenge. How fit am I? How hard can I push myself and still perform well with a rifle and pistol? I'm not concerned about gear testing (other than testing my rifle and pistol…) or "prepping" for doomsday. I don't see the race as training; I see it as a test. It may not test what you want, but it's still a test of fitness and shooting ability combined.

I’m registered for the summer run. It's difficult to draw too many parallels because of the different stages and 40 degree temperature change, but I did go from placing 16th out of 48 to 10th out of 81. I feel confident that I was better prepared physically this time and my long range shooting was significantly better. I want to continue this improvement and I'm setting my sights on top 5. Some of this may be luck of the draw in the summer (run time plays a big role. 9AM vs 12PM is huge with regards to temperature and sun), but I'll train as best I can and see what I can accomplish before July.

I may make some gear changes for the summer run. My current budget setup allows me to carry 6 rifle mags and 3 pistol mags. I only need 3 and 3, and I don't think a chest rig is necessary or even ideal. I original purchased this gear because it appeared to be the cheapest option for an integrated mag carrier and hydration pack. For the summer I may buy a larger 3 liter bladder to avoid running out of water. I may go with a lightweight backpack + bladder and a few belt mounted pouches. I’m testing a BFG 10-speed belt pouch currently which looks promising; very light, very low profile.

My training will be more focused on maintenance for shooting and improvement in running. I'll continue to run 15-30 miles per week. I have no intention of increasing my mileage but I do want to move more of that mileage to trails, mountains, and running with moderate weight(10-20 lbs).

As summer rolls around I intend to do more running outside in mid-day heat and sun. My biggest concern for the summer is heat acclimation.

[SLG]

LJ,

That's really a great improvement from one test to the next. I'm sorry we didn't get to meet until the end of the day last time, but I look forward to seeing you there in July.

[FOG]

Good stuff LJ, I like your drive. Looking forward to seeing you in July.

Due to injury, I've been forced to change strategies and run less. My research led me to Atomic Athlete and StrongSwiftDurable. For the last 7 weeks Ive been following their programs and the results have been outstanding. My cardio is improved, core strength is increased and run times are faster.



Sent from my SM-G900R4 using Tapatalk

[littlejerry]

FOG- sorry to hear about your injury. Was it running related? Good to hear you are crosstraing now. That is something I'm lacking right now and know I need.


SLG- what kind of weekly PT do you do? You seemed to be well prepared for the January race. What regimen got you there?

[SLG]

FOG- sorry to hear about your injury. Was it running related? Good to hear you are crosstraing now. That is something I'm lacking right now and know I need.


SLG- what kind of weekly PT do you do? You seemed to be well prepared for the January race. What regimen got you there?

FOG, I'm going to have to look that stuff up, thanks for the info.

LJ,

I appreciate that, but don't take my answer the wrong way. I probably have a very different metric than most.

I don't think I was well prepared, just that neither was anyone else. I didn't run really at all leading up to the race. I have been crossfitting for 10 years now, 5 days a week, and we do run as a part of that, but not very much. An advantage I had was that overland problems are not new to me and except for having to wing my dope at the 500, the shooting was very simple. If the contestants of the race were made up of any of the guys on the teams I've been on over the years, they would have taken 1st over and over again, if you know what I mean. Same with guys here like F2S, SeanM, Mr. Pink, etc. Those are the kind of guys who can walk up to an event like this and be competitive. We all have a lot of years of having to do similar stuff, both in training and operationally. Much of what those guys do/have done is somewhat different from what I do/have done, but the similarities are close enough for this discussion. I don't put myself in their league at all.

Anyway, as I said, my metric is probably different. I have to be in "fighting shape" everyday of my life. I was planning on running to hopefully do better in July, but so far, that hasn't materialized. I hate running.:-(

To perhaps answer your question in a more useful way, I think that something like Crossfit as a base, combined with some running, is probably the most useful all around conditioning you can have, without trying to prepare for a very specific problem, like an Ironman or something.

[littlejerry]

FOG, I'm going to have to look that stuff up, thanks for the info.

LJ,

I appreciate that, but don't take my answer the wrong way. I probably have a very different metric than most.

I don't think I was well prepared, just that neither was anyone else. I didn't run really at all leading up to the race. I have been crossfitting for 10 years now, 5 days a week, and we do run as a part of that, but not very much. An advantage I had was that overland problems are not new to me and except for having to wing my dope at the 500, the shooting was very simple. If the contestants of the race were made up of any of the guys on the teams I've been on over the years, they would have taken 1st over and over again, if you know what I mean. Same with guys here like F2S, SeanM, Mr. Pink, etc. Those are the kind of guys who can walk up to an event like this and be competitive. We all have a lot of years of having to do similar stuff, both in training and operationally. Much of what those guys do/have done is somewhat different from what I do/have done, but the similarities are close enough for this discussion. I don't put myself in their league at all.

Anyway, as I said, my metric is probably different. I have to be in "fighting shape" everyday of my life. I was planning on running to hopefully do better in July, but so far, that hasn't materialized. I hate running.:-(

To perhaps answer your question in a more useful way, I think that something like Crossfit as a base, combined with some running, is probably the most useful all around conditioning you can have, without trying to prepare for a very specific problem, like an Ironman or something.

SLG- that's exactly the answer I was expecting and hoping for.

My career had no physical requirements. My fitness and preparedness for this event is purely recreational. I had a lightbulb moment last year where I told myself there is no reason why I shouldn't be able to show up and do something like this.. This is a major change in lifestyle for me: prioritizing fitness and general health. And it is exactly that: a lifestyle. Not a 6 month training program, not a temporary diet, but a change in my day to day life.

Your answer is helpful. My biggest defecit right now is some kind of sustainable strength training. I purchased a book on bodyweight exercises that I'm going to start following this week. My hope is that developing a bodyweight routine will be more successful with the heavy work and travel schedule I've had lately. Sometimes it's difficult to find a good gym in Asia.

[SLG]

SLG- that's exactly the answer I was expecting and hoping for.

My career had no physical requirements. My fitness and preparedness for this event is purely recreational. I had a lightbulb moment last year where I told myself there is no reason why I shouldn't be able to show up and do something like this.. This is a major change in lifestyle for me: prioritizing fitness and general health. And it is exactly that: a lifestyle. Not a 6 month training program, not a temporary diet, but a change in my day to day life.

Your answer is helpful. My biggest defecit right now is some kind of sustainable strength training. I purchased a book on bodyweight exercises that I'm going to start following this week. My hope is that developing a bodyweight routine will be more successful with the heavy work and travel schedule I've had lately. Sometimes it's difficult to find a good gym in Asia.

Travel really shows who is tough and who isn't. I have a very hard time keeping a good workout when I'm travelling.

I'm a huge fan of body weight exercise, for many reasons and on many levels. For the non professional, it may be all you need. Either way, once you get a good level of fitness that way, if you decide to get into any kind of lifting, I highly recommend a good coach. Literally the difference between success and injury.

Before finding crossfit, I did many different things to be in shape. The best was probably an old BUD/S prep program that had a TON of pushups/pullups/situps/squats and running. I wouldn't do sit-ups unless I had a PT test that required them.


I think it is really excellent that you are interested in this type of competition. Too many shooters live up to the "lazy man's martial art."

[FOG]

FOG- sorry to hear about your injury. Was it running related? Good to hear you are crosstraing now. That is something I'm lacking right now and know I need.


Yes, early March my knee starting hurting pretty bad during a 9 mile run but I finished anyway without walking. It was a blessing in disguise, otherwise I'd never tried these other programs.

Last night I had to run 2 hard miles, rest 4 min then 2 more hard miles. It hurt some but believe it or not, I prayed to God and it went away. If anybody saw me running with my hands outstretched, talking to the sky, I imagine they thought I was a lunatic but it worked.

As far as this training goes, I'm a believer. My barn looks more like a cross fit gym than a barn right now with ropes hanging from the rafters and a piece of pipe wired to the tractors front end loader as a makeshift pull up bar. ;)

[breakingtime91]

so not to derail the thread but I used to think cross fit/ HIIT was a waste of my time.. Decided with the move coming up I would do HIIT and some olympic lifts on off days. Now looking for a cross fit gym in the town I am moving to, I am sold on it.

[Lomshek]

My mentality going into this race is that it's a personal challenge. How fit am I? How hard can I push myself and still perform well with a rifle and pistol? I'm not concerned about gear testing (other than testing my rifle and pistol…) or "prepping" for doomsday. I don't see the race as training; I see it as a test. It may not test what you want, but it's still a test of fitness and shooting ability combined.


Well said! The summer contest is out for me but I'm planning on being back into some kind of decent condition and doing the January event.

[Bratch]

Yes, early March my knee starting hurting pretty bad during a 9 mile run but I finished anyway without walking. It was a blessing in disguise, otherwise I'd never tried these other programs


FOG no idea if this will help any but about halfway into training for my first half marathon I started getting a lot of knee pain during my runs. The pain was around the edges of my knee cap especially on the inside of my legs. I did some research and bought a foam roller and started attacking my quads a couple times a day. My quads were overly tight and were pulling my knee caps during the runs causing pain, the roller loosened them up and relieved the pain. The next half I trained for I rolled preemptively and never had any pain.

Sounds like you have a good solution and this may not be applicable at all but I thought I'd pass it along

[FOG]

Thanks Bratch, I recently bought a foam roller and it seems to be helping.

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[Bratch]

How is everyone's training going?