USAF Academy M9 Training

[seabiscuit]

Mods, if this is the wrong place for this, please move it.

Obviously not everyone can take this class, and I wouldn't recommend it anyway. We had 20 minutes of classroom safety and manual of arms, then headed to the range for 30 rounds.

While the instructor told us "all guns are always loaded," and "never point tour muzzle at anything you're not willing to destroy," his M9 was pointed at me.

We shot from 7, 15, and 25 yards. Most courses of fire were two to the chest, one to the head. The last was six to the chest, resting on the barricade and kneeling at 25 yards.

I didn't shoot as well as I would have liked - I'm not used to the DA trigger. I've heard flying squadron commanders will often let their pilots carry their own sidearm, and I'll probably get a G19 for that purpose. If I can't, I'll buy a 92 so I can train with it, since Glock training obviously doesn't cross over.

Resources and time are limited. 50 shooters, one instructor, and two hours make it hard to teach anything worthwhile. But at least it introduces cadets to firearms.

[Al T.]

Sight alignment, reloads (use the slide release on the 92), stance and trigger control carry over. :)

[seabiscuit]

Sight alignment, reloads (use the slide release on the 92), stance and trigger control carry over. :)

True,and that stuff did help. But holsters/mag carriers are different, and that DA trigger really threw me for a loop. At this point, it's not a platform I feel confident enough with to take into combat.

[Mike Honcho]

Mods, if this is the wrong place for this, please move it.

Obviously not everyone can take this class, and I wouldn't recommend it anyway. We had 20 minutes of classroom safety and manual of arms, then headed to the range for 30 rounds.

While the instructor told us "all guns are always loaded," and "never point tour muzzle at anything you're not willing to destroy," his M9 was pointed at me.

We shot from 7, 15, and 25 yards. Most courses of fire were two to the chest, one to the head. The last was six to the chest, resting on the barricade and kneeling at 25 yards.

I didn't shoot as well as I would have liked - I'm not used to the DA trigger. I've heard flying squadron commanders will often let their pilots carry their own sidearm, and I'll probably get a G19 for that purpose. If I can't, I'll buy a 92 so I can train with it, since Glock training obviously doesn't cross over.

Resources and time are limited. 50 shooters, one instructor, and two hours make it hard to teach anything worthwhile. But at least it introduces cadets to firearms.

I’ve been shooting this exact same course, with the addition of some others, for the past 8 years. My experience usually jives with yours as far as the M9 AF Qual Course.
Firearms instructors in the AF (Combat Arms Training and Maintenance, or CATM) are Security Forces troops, it's a lateral retrain as CATM is a shred-out of the SF AFSC along with K9 handler. While K9 guys generally crosstrain into it because they want to be dog handlers, the vast majority of CATM guys (IME) do it because they don’t like being cops and want to get off flight. The random one might “like guns”, but there is no screening process as far as knowledge and aptitude either in weapons or instruction ability. As long as you’re breathing, they’ll take you and the idea is that you’ll learn what you need at the course. What you were subjected to is 90% of the result.

The weapon safety bit is unacceptable, but it is very common where they come from (regular SF flight) to not worry about things like muzzle discipline. Weapons safety is paid lip service every day in guardmount in the form of canned briefings, that include things like “don’t joke or gesture with your weapon” and “don’t take your weapon apart or count your rounds on post”. Products of their environment.

Carrying a non-issue, personal weapon is a no-go. Not only unauthorized by AF Instruction, but a Law of Armed Conflict violation.

The half-assed nature of the training (it’s the same in most units) is the fact that the AF hates guns, and wouldn’t have them at all if they could get away with it. Since they kind of have to have them, they relegate them to the absolute lowest priority possible. PT tests have a higher priority than weapons proficiency in the USAF. The vast majority of the AF is a check-the-box exercise, especially in this area. There are some units that do things differently, but they are few and far between, and have a mission-driven reason for doing things the way they do.

[seabiscuit]

Carrying a non-issue, personal weapon is a no-go. Not only unauthorized by AF Instruction, but a Law of Armed Conflict violation.

Can you show me the AFI and LOAC which say this is unauthorized? I've heard stories of pilots carrying personal weapons with commander permission.

[Mike Honcho]

Can you show me the AFI and LOAC which say this is unauthorized? I've heard stories of pilots carrying personal weapons with commander permission.

I've heard stories to that effect too; Vietnam and earlier, though. Our former Chief of Staff, Gen Moseley, testified in Congress that he carried a .357 while flying combat missions. Ol' Buzz was a fucking idiot though, and it wouldn't surprise me that he'd done it and not realized it was a no-go (or didn't care, he was a member of the Fighter Mafia), or was too stupid to know what he was carrying (he tended to talk out his ass a lot), or was trying to impress people with how much of a badass he was (combine the previous two statements in parentheses).

Firearms training and qualifications are documented on an AF Form 522. This records the model of weapon used, course of fire, ammunition expended, score, and relevant dates. You're not even supposed to utilize a different holster than the issue one (M12 green flap holster) unless it's documented on the 522 in the remarks section. We just fought that here with a bunch of pilots and other O's who thought they were too cool for school and should use whatever cool guy holster they wanted (SERPAs and shit). While I'm not above dudes using good gear other than issue (probably half my shit is personally bought), for them to carry (empty) pistols at all was purely a status symbol, and no training (familiarization or otherwise) was conducted with the new holsters. I wanted to make them use lanyards, as weapons accountability seems to be an issue with them, and the best I could come up with was to dummy cord it to them.

So just saying the 522 means you were qualified on a pistol, and therefore can now use any handgun just because the commander approves it, is not going to happen. The liability is too great, what with bubba guns, and I don't even want to start on ammunition concerns. In the AF, if something happens (such as an accident or a use of force) the first thing investigators will do is pull up whatever training records are applicable and ensure the individual was appropriately trained on the task and equipment. This alone ensures that no commander would ever put his ass on the line because somebody doesn’t like something about the issue pistol. Not to mention that POW (personally owned weapons) aren't allowed on installation, with the exception of being transported to the SF armory for storage (and some other location-specific stuff, like POW ranges).

If this was OK, I guarantee you wouldn't see everybody carrying M9s, dudes would be rocking whatever cheap 1911 or XD-45 they could get their CC to hack off on, because 9mm wouldn't kill a dog and .45 makes them disappear in a shower of sparks. :rolleyes:

While LE agencies are subject to locally-derived policy about what they can and can’t carry, the military is subject to not only the UCMJ, but also international laws of war, status of forces agreements, etc.

AFI 31-207 covers arming and use of force. The LOAC (or maybe something else like Geneva, but it's the same deal that prohibits hollow-point ammunition and modifying ammo), I’ll see if I can dig it up.

Disclaimer: I'm not CATM, just spent plenty of time at a unit where small unit leaders were the primary trainers for everything.

[Abraxas]

True,and that stuff did help. But holsters/mag carriers are different, and that DA trigger really threw me for a loop. At this point, it's not a platform I feel confident enough with to take into combat.

If you are using your M9 for combat things have went severely wrong. As you know the solution is just to go shoot it.

[seabiscuit]

If you are using your M9 for combat things have went severely wrong. As you know the solution is just to go shoot it.

Yeah, which means I gotta buy one. Helos do go down; helo pilots are carrying M4's too.

[Abraxas]

Yeah, which means I gotta buy one. Helos do go down; helo pilots are carrying M4's too.

This I know first hand, just being a smartass.

[Al T.]

DA trigger really threw me for a loop

Some dry firing would help take care of that issue. When I shot IDPA, every once in a while we would get some guys from FT. Jackson or USMCR units who would shoot 92s. Took some effort, but going from that heavy first trigger poll to the lighter is "doable". COL. Cooper suggested that either cocking the hammer first (like drawing a 1911 with the hammer down and a round chambered) or simply throwing the first round downrange to get to the single action mode could work. While the latter suggestion is sort of silly in a civilian setting, if it's a two way rifle match, no big deal.

Not sure about pilots in flight and the AF in general, but work on drawing and charging your M9 - lots of .mil installations want you to have the chamber clear and at best a loaded magazine in the weapon.

As for the holsters, I spent some time overseas and I had three different carry points for my M9. Depended on what I was doing and how I was dressed.

[seabiscuit]

Some dry firing would help take care of that issue. When I shot IDPA, every once in a while we would get some guys from FT. Jackson or USMCR units who would shoot 92s. Took some effort, but going from that heavy first trigger poll to the lighter is "doable". COL. Cooper suggested that either cocking the hammer first (like drawing a 1911 with the hammer down and a round chambered) or simply throwing the first round downrange to get to the single action mode could work. While the latter suggestion is sort of silly in a civilian setting, if it's a two way rifle match, no big deal.

Not sure about pilots in flight and the AF in general, but work on drawing and charging your M9 - lots of .mil installations want you to have the chamber clear and at best a loaded magazine in the weapon.

As for the holsters, I spent some time overseas and I had three different carry points for my M9. Depended on what I was doing and how I was dressed.

Thanks for the advice. One of my buddies bought a 92 just to train with it, I think I'll borrow it this weekend and at least do some dry-fire with it. It'll just take some practice, I think.

[ToddG]

... or simply throwing the first round downrange to get to the single action mode could work. While the latter suggestion is sort of silly in a civilian setting, if it's a two way rifle match, no big deal.

SLG should be back later this week to beat you about the head and neck for suggesting this. :cool:

[Al T.]

Snicker. Haven't had a good beat down in several years. :p

When my primary weapon was an M9 in an environment where the bad guys had AKs, I tended to think in terms of "Bill Drills at extended ranges" until I could get my hands on an M4/M249/M240 or some other novelty. I also carried multiple magazines. Engagement ranges for my part of Iraq tended to either be in buildings or on the roads.

Which brings up a couple of points:

Seabisquit, spend the money to get some OEM Beretta magazines. I carried six and always had four on me, two on my body armor. Never had a reliability issue. The crappy recycled GI magazines went in my ruck as a last resort.

It also surprises a lot of .mil folks that the M9 can supply suppressive fire out to 200m or so. Takes some practice, but handgun rounds are not as feeble as some think.

[TGS]

I was going to say that bit about carrying your own weapon sounded funny, thanks for the references.


I'm guessing they were teaching you to stage the trigger? Try not staging it. If I can get a 110lbs female to shoot a Beretta more accurately with the DA than the SA in as little as an hour, then you can surely shoot it. Stop telling yourself that DA sucks, or that it's a bitch to learn......because it isn't. You're just mentally fucking yourself for the learning process by saying that. People made do with DA triggers for a very long time before it suddenly became the newest "If you carry a DA you're going to die" sort of internet sensation. F' that noise. DA rocks. Embrace it.

[seabiscuit]

No they told us to squeeze, and that it should surprise us every shot. I do squeeze, just not used to a DA squeeze. A couple dry fires and 30 rounds isn't enough to get me accurate.

I've seen lots of improvement with my Glock in the last few months, I'll just need some time to get better with the M9.

Any recommended dry or live fire drills?

[Al T.]

Dry, get a buddy to work the action to get your transition from DA to SA down. You get in a good aggressive shooting stance with a cleared M92 pointed in a safe direction. Dry fire the m92 DA. Have your buddy place one hand on your shoulder and use the other hand to work the slide, cocking the pistol. Dry fire SA. Pause, dry fire DA. Buddy runs the slide, fire SA.

Rinse, lather, repeat. ;)

[YVK]

No they told us to squeeze, and that it should surprise us every shot. I do squeeze, just not used to a DA squeeze. A couple dry fires and 30 rounds isn't enough to get me accurate.

I've seen lots of improvement with my Glock in the last few months, I'll just need some time to get better with the M9.

Any recommended dry or live fire drills?

If you can, take a class from Todd or Ernest Langdon. These two dudes teach specific skill that helps with DA/SA shooting, which is a press-out. It has been discussed a lot online, but it is best seen and learned in person. Ernest currently teaches with a compact DA/SA Beretta so you'd be able to see him do this on nearly identical gun.

[seabiscuit]

If you can, take a class from Todd or Ernest Langdon. These two dudes teach specific skill that helps with DA/SA shooting, which is a press-out. It has been discussed a lot online, but it is best seen and learned in person. Ernest currently teaches with a compact DA/SA Beretta so you'd be able to see him do this on nearly identical gun.

I'd love to, but I currently have neither the time nor the money. After graduation, I'll look into it pretty hard. And if I go downrange with an M9, which won't happen for a few years, I'll definitely get some OEM mags.

Todd and others have given me feedback on my press-out in this thread (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?1403-Critique-my-FAST) - very helpful, just wish I could get some instruction in person.

[YVK]

You could see if there are F.A.S.T Wall of Fame folks in your area you could get together with, although this is not a true substitution for a professional training. Otherwise, the advice you received in that thread is good. One thing I do when I feel my press out is off is to press out into a berm or large neutral target, without trying to hit anything. I concentrate on picking up the sight early (I sometimes scratch my nose with my strong hand thumb which I keep out until I get support hand on), seeing them as I extend and pressing the trigger simultaneously with extension. Taking the target out of equation helps concentrating on developing commensurate speeds for trigger press and arm extension for me.

[Failure2Stop]

I have used, carrier, competed with, instructed, and maintained M9s for quite a while.
While it is not on my "Top 5" list of pistols I would choose to go kill people with, it is a capable platform once you learn its quirks.
Most of them have decent double action pulls, and I have noever had one in servicable condition that didn't have an acceptable single-action.
The biggest single downfall to the M9 is the slide mounted safety/decocker. It is susceptable to not being swept to fire during presentations (especially one-handed), and onto safe during manipulations that require racking the slide.

The best way to get better at double-action shooting is to. . . shoot double action.
The Dot Torture is good for it, as are pastie drills.
About half of my students would shoot smaller double-action groups than single action (not counting those that are shooting patterns), after a day's worth of DA work.

Press-drills are not rocket science.
Work on going from a compressed ready or alert to full presentation while pressing the trigger with proper regard to target size.
The goal is not to make the gun go off just because your arms are fully extended, but rather because your trigger control and sight management during the press permit you to hit.

[John Hearne]

COL. Cooper suggested that either cocking the hammer first (like drawing a 1911 with the hammer down and a round chambered) or simply throwing the first round downrange to get to the single action mode could work. While the latter suggestion is sort of silly in a civilian setting, if it's a two way rifle match, no big deal.

Actually, he discussed at least four different ways to run a DA trigger. He compared the advantages and disadvantages of each. The "shot cocking" method was mentioned because it had worked in classes and people had won the shoot-off with the technique.

What he recommended as the preferred technique was the "Weaver System of Trigger Control." This was defined in 1996as: "In this method the weapon is fired by cocking it with the trigger finger on the way up." This sounds identical to a proper pressout.

See Jeff's Commentares: Vol.4 No. 1, Vol. 6 No. 11, Vol. 4 No. 16, and Vol. 4 No. 7.

[ToddG]

The best way to get better at double-action shooting is to. . . shoot double action.
The Dot Torture is good for it, as are pastie drills.
About half of my students would shoot smaller double-action groups than single action (not counting those that are shooting patterns), after a day's worth of DA work.

Concur. One of the biggest hurdles to learning to shoot a TDA pistol is finding an instructor who believes it's possible. Someone who wants to tell you to buy another gun because "two trigger pulls is too hard to learn" simply doesn't know how to do it himself. Back in the 90's when I was part of the CCW instructor cadre at the NRA Range I'd regularly steal TDA-shooting students from non-TDA shooting instructors and with an hour of instruction, shazzam, they could hit the target with either trigger pull as well or better than the 1911- and Glock-shooting students.

The drill I always used to work the DA/SA transition was to put up two 3x5 cards at 7yd. Draw, fire DA to one card, transition to the other card and fire one SA shot. Repeat, repeat, repeat. As F2S said, the trick to having better DA skill is to shoot DA. Too many people empty their mags firing only the first round DA (or not even that). Back when SLG and I were shooting together multiple times per week we both shot SIGs. I'd guess about 1/3rd of all the shots we fired were double action.


Press-drills are not rocket science.

Lies! All lies! Press-outs are super secret ninja techniques and you have to come to class to learn to do them right! :D


The goal is not to make the gun go off just because your arms are fully extended, but rather because your trigger control and sight management during the press permit you to hit.

That's an excellent explanation.

[seabiscuit]

Thanks for all the good advice. I'll definitely be trying that 3x5 drill and maybe dot torture. I think I'll need to master the trigger at full extension before I start working back to the holster, though.

[seabiscuit]

Lies! All lies! Press-outs are super secret ninja techniques and you have to come to class to learn to do them right! :D

Well shoot. Any classes in CO coming up?:confused:

[Failure2Stop]

I think I'll need to master the trigger at full extension before I start working back to the holster, though.

That is generally the accepted training model.

[seabiscuit]

Had a chance to repeat this class today, and it went much better.

Looks like my feedback actually reached the instructor; I never saw him flag his hand or the students.

Shot better as well. All DA shots were in; missed 5 SA shots out of 30 total shots. Now I realize what people mean when they say DA is easier. I think I was flinching on SA.

[theblacknight]

It also surprises a lot of .mil folks that the M9 can supply suppressive fire out to 200m or so. Takes some practice, but handgun rounds are not as feeble as some think.


Lol.I'm def not arguing with you, but this quote is straight up NutnFancy status.

[Al T.]

NutnFancy status.

TBK, I hate that guy. Seriously.

As for use, please note that Seabiscuit will be a USAF Officer when he graduates. Having been in the sandbox with an M9 for my PDW, shots at excessive ranges were probable. With an M9 and a roll over prone position, effective range can be surprising.

[seabiscuit]

That's encouraging. And if I need to use my M9 as a pilot, I'll need some encouragement.

[Al T.]

SB, we had several rated pilots, logistic folks and a navigator operating in ground roles. :p

[seabiscuit]

Well then. That'll be interesting. All the more reason to learn to shoot the M9 and the M4.