Thoughts on the current Mini-14... [Archive]

LSP972

03-13-2015, 10:49 AM

Saw something this morning that made me realize I need to start carrying a rifle with me again on my daily travels.

I know that some folks here are adamantly against a "car gun". For the sake of discussion, understand that I am aware of the issues with doing so, choose to take the risks, so please don't let this devolve into that particular urination competition.

I don't want to take those risks with one of my Colts, and do NOT want a "lesser-tier" AR, so to speak (I just wish I had snagged another 6920 when they $799, but spilt milk and all of that), so I'm considering the Ruger. Back (WAY back) in the day, I had a 180-series example that wouldn't stay on a pie plate at 100 yards. So I've basically ignored the rifle in the ensuing decades. But I'm told that the current production guns, while not Wimbledon-grade, are adequately accurate for a SHTF piece.

I'm looking at two specific versions; the #5846 tactical-schmactical, and the plain vanilla #5801 Ranch Rifle. I would appreciate any experienced observations/comments, both positive and negative.

If you have a counter suggestion, I'll listen to those as well. I considered a bullpup of some sort, but the only experience I have with those is a short stint with an FN 2000, and I was underwhelmed both with the concept and that particular "rifle". Besides, I could just get another Colt carbine for the prices I've seen current bullpups going for.

And I briefly considered the Kel-Tec folder; until I held one.

Anyway, I'm looking for a decent .223/5.56mm light-duty self-loader that will take a 20 round magazine.

.

Dave J

03-13-2015, 11:19 AM

Gadfly

03-13-2015, 11:19 AM

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/catalog/product/view/id/14434/

Blem lower, complete, $129

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/psa-16-mid-length-chf-5-56-1-7-upper-with-bcg-and-charging-handle.html

Complete mid length CHF upper with BCG, $399

total $529 +tax and shipping. Probably less than the cost of the Mini.

This would be far better than any Mini 14. (And that is said with me growing up with 2 mini 14s in the house. They are OK, but nothing to write home about.)

HCM

03-13-2015, 11:43 AM

I had a mini 14 when I was a kid. My dad bought it for me with my odd jobs money. Minute of pie plate was about right.

A few years ago I picked up one of the new style, NRA edition 16 inch mini 14s. It is a great improvement over the original mini 14. You have both decent iron sites and the ability to mount optics all in one package though adjusting the new rear site is kind of a pain. Accuracy is greatly improved, 2 to 3 MOA with ammo it likes.

Honestly, I bought it out of nostalgia and the fact that I still had a bunch of Ruger factory 20 round mags in my possibles box. Back in the day my mini 14 was $250 versus a whopping $450 for a colt AR. The new mini 14's cost as much as a decent AR, in the $700 to $800 range. You could buy another colt for that if you search around.

Honestly, Gadfly's suggestion for a PSA is solid. Several of my coworkers have bought PSA uppers and lowers. As long as you stick to the PSA and PSA premium lines they are solid guns. Avoid the PT AC and freedom lines and you'll be good to go. Another solid suggestion in the same price range would be the Smith & Wesson sport. Chuck haggard has been putting one through its paces and is one of several people who have had really good things to say about the sport.

Malamute

03-13-2015, 12:11 PM

I've had several mini's in the past. They werent spectacular groupers. One was particularly bad. I bought a plastic stock for it, it was really tight going in, but groups went from 8-10" to 3-4". It was a bedding problem apparently. I like the concept, but the guns just dont perform that great.

A entry level M&P-15 or Ruger gas gun-15 may be worthwhile. For a car gun, a side folder AK would be on my short list. The romanian side folders are solid (can be installed on any fixed stock AK), and better cheek position than underfolders. 20 rd mags make them pretty compact. Even a cheap used romanian would probably work fine as a car gun. I think the 7.62x39 has better penetration on vehicles than 5.56. Nyeti mentioned that once also I believe. Practice ammo is dirt cheap also.

JodyH

03-13-2015, 12:20 PM

S&W M&P Sport AR15, as cheap as a Mini and nearly as good as a Colt AR.

vaglocker

03-13-2015, 12:26 PM

Saw something this morning that made me realize I need to start carrying a rifle with me again on my daily travels.
.

Of course it's none of my business why you want to carry a long gun but if I'm not prying too much and you're comfortable talking about it what happened?

Gadfly

03-13-2015, 12:28 PM

I have several PSA rifles built from their parts kits. All run just fine, suppressed or unsuppressed, dirty or clean, dry or lubed. I have yet to have an issue with the PSA gear. Like HCM said, make sure it is PSA, not PTAC as both brands are for sale on the website.

We had a standard mini 14 with iron peep sights and a ranch rifle. Both purchased '79-'81 time frame. I have not bench rested them in a decade, but they were "minute of jackrabbit" accurate at 30-50 yards all day long when I was a teen. They ran fine with Ruger mags although I hate the "rock and lock" style mags. Most aftermarket mags we tried had issues...

My dad is 72 as is talking about sending his guns to live with me now. So I may end up with the Minis soon...

WDW

03-13-2015, 12:44 PM

If you are a Veteran or active/retired LEO, you can get an M&P15 optic ready carbine (not the Sport, this is a standard M&P15 sans sights) for $725. Also, I just got a new 6920 w/Magpul furniture from Buds for $840. Deals are out there, just gotta look.
I would not get a mini 14, especially for defensive use. They are way too finicky. On 2 examples, I have seen the gas piston come loose and lodge itself down inside the end of the stock, effective deadlining the gun. Complete disassembly was the only fix.
Also, look at Palmetto State. You can get a carbine kit with upper from FN & have a very nice complete rifle for about $600.

HCM

03-13-2015, 01:00 PM

Another advantage to the AR as a car gun is you can break it doe into two pieces and fit them in a normal looking back pack in case you have to walk home but things aren't yet to the "patrolling with an AR" stage.

Colt is the original but S&W makes a good AR. I have a 2007 vintage M &P15T which is still going strong. Since I mostly shoot 62 gr and 55gr the 1/9 barrel is no problem. You qualify for the S&W "blue label" program so you could pick up one of the 1/8 barrel models such as the Magpul mid length in the same price range.

PSA has been the "divorced dad paying child support" AR among my co-workers but they run / shoot very well. PSA doesn't actually make anything and it is my understanding the PSA/PSA premium lines and the PTAC/ Freedom lines are not just different levels of quality but are actually made by different suppliers.

The only negative experience I've witnessed with PSA was NickA's out of spec PTAC lower parts kit.

Kyle Reese

03-13-2015, 01:16 PM

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/daily-deals/colt-ar-15-5-56nato-16-carbine-pencil-barrel.html

/ thread.

Years ago, I was the not so proud owner of a Mini-14 Ranch rifle. It was minute of barn door accurate, and they're not worth what Ruger is asking for them these days.

Get the Colt 6720. You'll thank us later. If you live in a free state, I cannot fathom what a Mini-14 would do that the Colt 6720 wouldn't do better.

Malamute

03-13-2015, 01:24 PM

23JAZ

03-13-2015, 01:55 PM

S&W M&P Sport AR15, as cheap as a Mini and nearly as good as a Colt AR.

+1
That's my economy set up. I threw a vertex crossfire 1-4 with the quick throw lever, magpul short vertical grip and a surefire on it. I love that rifle. Accurate as all hell and after 1000s of rounds not a single malfunction.

LSP972

03-13-2015, 02:00 PM

Of course it's none of my business why you want to carry a long gun but if I'm not prying too much and you're comfortable talking about it what happened?

I live in a small community about 20 miles north of a major city. The north end of said city, which I have to pass through twice a day when I go "into town", to work or whatever, is felony Indian country. Inside the actual city limits, there is elevated interstate, but the approach and get-on ramp begins at a major intersection, which is a major choke point; IOW, if the natives get restless, it is a perfect place to slow down and ambush yuppie (and not so yuppie) motorists; coming and going. During times of unrest, I always have one of the Colts with me... no way am I going to be the next Reginald Denny.

But things have been quiet for some time now, so I quit carrying it. This morning, on the way into work, I saw a crowd of perhaps 20 or so liberal southern democrats hanging out in the church parking lot on the southeast corner of that intersection; and they weren't waiting to get on a tour bus, if you get my drift. The fact that it was 0545 was another indicator; usually, at that time those folks are crashed somewhere after a night of... doing what they do.

Anyway... it made me realize that I may well likely have no advance warning if the flashpoint occurs. I knew this, but just got complacent.

I don't intend to be complacent anymore.

.

LSP972

03-13-2015, 02:18 PM

Thanks for all the responses. The repeated admonitions against the Mini-14 are pretty much what I expected; I appreciate ya'll validating my concerns. And I was amazed by the current prices; indeed, a decent AR carbine can be had for the price of a Mini-14 these days.

My #2 son-in-law has one of those S&W Sport carbines, and it is an okay gun. But my city cop pal here at the lab clued me in to the new Ruger DI AR; with a dealer price of $510, and a local FFL who is into showing love to FROG (Fat Retired Old Guy) cops in my pocket, hmmmmm....

Anyway, an AR carbine is the smarter move, since I've got tons of magazines, etc.

Many thanks for screwing my head back on straight...

.

Malamute

03-13-2015, 02:25 PM

In the sort of circumstances you mention, I'd consider a glock 9 with a several 33 rd mags at hand a useful vehicle gun that is potentially instantly usable, even in confined spaces, like inside the vehicle.

Not to discourage a carbine, they can do more, but arent as easily usable on short notice.

My center console is my defacto spare magazine storage area for the g-19. A handful of 15's and a 33. In more civilized areas, some more 33's would be comforting.

LSP972

03-13-2015, 02:34 PM

An immediate, close-range assault is not my concern; got that covered already.

What I'm thinking about is getting caught in the inevitable traffic snarl that WILL occur, with nowhere to go... as in cannot turn around, turn off to an alternate route, etc. In fact, there IS no alternate route once you pass the second-to-last exit, and what little bit of median there is usually is water-logged/muddy/uncrossable.

And of course the celebrants will begin moving amongst the stalled/trapped vehicles, spreading their exuberance, etc. And FWIW, I am not exercising my imagination.

.

Jeep

03-13-2015, 02:58 PM

I live in a small community about 20 miles north of a major city. The north end of said city, which I have to pass through twice a day when I go "into town", to work or whatever, is felony Indian country. Inside the actual city limits, there is elevated interstate, but the approach and get-on ramp begins at a major intersection, which is a major choke point; IOW, if the natives get restless, it is a perfect place to slow down and ambush yuppie (and not so yuppie) motorists; coming and going. During times of unrest, I always have one of the Colts with me... no way am I going to be the next Reginald Denny.

But things have been quiet for some time now, so I quit carrying it. This morning, on the way into work, I saw a crowd of perhaps 20 or so liberal southern democrats hanging out in the church parking lot on the southeast corner of that intersection; and they weren't waiting to get on a tour bus, if you get my drift. The fact that it was 0545 was another indicator; usually, at that time those folks are crashed somewhere after a night of... doing what they do.

Anyway... it made me realize that I may well likely have no advance warning if the flashpoint occurs. I knew this, but just got complacent.

I don't intend to be complacent anymore.

.

At 0545 and in a church parking lot, not around a late-hours club? That is not good. Definitely not good. And unless I am mistaken a US Marshal was shot near there last week.

Good luck. Hope they all go back to crashing in the early morning hours.

breakingtime91

03-13-2015, 03:15 PM

A Colt 6720 broken down and stashed in a hill people Umlindi seems like a good option. Easy pack to get into and they have a storage pack designed to be added to the outside, that seems like a good thing since the ar 15 will take up much of the main compartment. You could keep a survival kit, med kit, a chest rig, or whatever in the extra storage pack. The pack is also good for blending in an urban environment and also being able to transition in a rural escape/evade situation.

Duces Tecum

03-13-2015, 03:25 PM

I don't intend to be complacent anymore..

Good on you.

Joe in PNG

03-13-2015, 04:53 PM

Quick tip- a 6920 will fit inside a standard electric guitar gig bag or Fender style hard case. Longer guns can fit in a bass guitar case.

WDW

03-13-2015, 05:55 PM

I carry an AR in my truck. Really no reason not to.

Sigfan26

03-13-2015, 06:35 PM

Colt 6720 with a Daniel Defense Fixed rear sight. If you don't want to spend a ton of money (IMHO), you'd be better served by a decent iron sight set up than a less expensive optic. I'd also make a weapon mounted light a priority if you're operating that early in the morning.
Anymore, the only reason to get a Mini 14 (to me) is if you want a less expensive, smaller caliber M1A because you're used to the manual of arms ... It's not that great at that, though.

Maple Syrup Actual

03-13-2015, 08:04 PM

Personally, while I think you (or anyone else) could do fine with a Mini...I just don't see the point of buying different mags. I know you already came back to the AR fold here, I'm just commenting because I've been drinking.

That's the main reason I stick with my gun choices...mags and holsters. I have a big stack of mags for 9/10mm glocks, .45 1911s, ARs, and VZs. Plus holsters for the pistols. And mag carriers. And reloading gear for those calibres.

I could switch platforms but they'd have to really be serious shifts in performance to justify the additional support gear. I'm not blowing giant stacks of maple-scented monopoly money for tiny incremental improvements. Which, of course, I don't think the Mini represents in the first place. But even if it did.

LSP972

03-13-2015, 09:24 PM

And unless I am mistaken a US Marshal was shot near there last week.

About four blocks away, in fact. And the individual the marshals were after was killed in the return volley. Dunno if there is any connection, but…

.

LSP972

03-13-2015, 09:28 PM

Quick tip- a 6920 will fit inside a standard electric guitar gig bag or Fender style hard case. Longer guns can fit in a bass guitar case.

Thanks, but I already have a near-perfect "urban camouflage" carrying case.

.

LSP972

03-13-2015, 09:33 PM

A Colt 6720 broken down and stashed in a hill people Umlindi seems like a good option.

Good idea on the face of it… but odds are that if I need the carbine, I'll need it pretty quickly and with little or no warning. Plan A is to just drive away from (or through) the threat.

OTOH, I really do need a more sturdy backpack, for if I have to transition to LPC (leather personnel carrier) mode. Nedd to check some of those out…

.

LSP972

03-13-2015, 09:36 PM

If you don't want to spend a ton of money (IMHO), you'd be better served by a decent iron sight set up than a less expensive optic.

Yup, already came to that conclusion. The white light is a given, too.

.

ST911

03-13-2015, 10:18 PM

I've been a factory cert'ed Ruger armorer, maintained a batch of them, carried a few on patrol, and took them to some multi-day, 1k rd+ classes. I still help with a few here and there and see them in training occasionally. The sum of my experience, applicable to the pre-580 (newest variant) series:

The Mini-14 is pretty reliable but not durable. Best reliability is with stainless steel guns, copious amounts of lube, 20rd OEM mags, using quality domestically produced .223 SAAMI spec ammo. Where there are problems, it's usually one or more deviations from this. Firing pins go between 2500-5000rds, extractors about that time as well. Other small parts here and there. Gas block screws should be checked often. Mechanical accuracy is "accurate enough" for its intended purposes, and certainly exceeds the ability of most shooters. A good shooter can produce some interesting deviations with hot barrels in some guns.

When the above advice is heeded, I expect most Minis to go ~200-300 rds at a stretch, which will get most folks through a LE training rotation or TD1 of a sleep-away class. If the gun isn't PM'ed thereafter, all bets are off.

The manner of firing seems to make a difference, but not with enough consistency for intelligent comment. I suspect it's stacking tolerances. Hard firing, rough ammo, and burning lube, along with a bolt that has no real smooth transitions in its travel make the gun what it is.

In the right hands, with the right PM, and with the right armorer watching the fleet, the Mini isn't unserviceable. It is what it is though.

Several mods have helped dedicated users of the Mini get the most out of their guns.

Shortening the barrel leaves less length in play ahead of the gas block. When shortened to 16", I found that group sizes typically decreased by 1/4 to 1/3 with less variability when heated up as well. Feedback from the field drove the heavier profile and 16" options currently available from the factory.

After shortening the barrel, installation of a GB type sight was popular. This was best done by true smiths to ensure the sight was top dead center. Many a canted sight were seen in the field due to WECSOG.

There were various barrel stiffening attachments on the market as well. Usually a rod or weight attached to the barrel ahead of the gas block to stiffen the barrel. Group sizes decreased about the same, but the ones I played with would move.

Removal and reinstallation of the gas block and screws for even torque is also thought to help. I don't know how much so by itself, but cumulatively with the above it seems to work.

A shorter stock, along with a shorter barrel, made for a very handy and fast handling carbine. The OEM stock is simply too long, and is much like running an A1 or A2 length on an AR.

Polishing and breaking the edges of the bolt lugs was also popular and seems to help wonky guns. Wonky guns that went back to Ruger often same back so tweaked.

Other aftermarket efforts included stronger firing pins, FP recess chamfering, harder extractors. Some of these, other stuff from the custom houses working Minis, and the above were integrated in the new 580 series, which makes it a better choice in the line than its predecessor models.

rob_s

03-14-2015, 09:12 AM

Since Colt 6720's can be had for $799, and the stripped 6920 OEMs are starting to trickle out into the market for $670-ish, I'd have a tough time justifying putting much money towards a Mini-14. I suppose that in some locations, the wood stock might be viewed as less evil and scary, but I doubt that's a major consideration where you live.

Colt's continued ability to miss the mark in the commercial market astounds me. Several years ago I was even in contact with their commercial division, because they wanted to know what they were doing wrong or could do better, and even then their focus was so screwed up as to be comical (their primary concerns seemed to be over what logo to stamp into the lowers, no shit).

What the market wants is a stripped OEM 6720. Alternately, or additionally, it would be awesome to see them offer a 6720 with a shaved FSB and even just an MI MLOK 15" handguard installed. Put a MOE stock and grip on it, with MOE sights, of you want to get fancy.

The latter would be the gun ID recommend to every single new buyer that sled me what to get. And it would be a great iron-sighted trunk gun with a set of fixed sights in place of the MOE.

Beat Trash

03-14-2015, 10:23 AM

Good idea on the face of it… but odds are that if I need the carbine, I'll need it pretty quickly and with little or no warning. Plan A is to just drive away from (or through) the threat.

OTOH, I really do need a more sturdy backpack, for if I have to transition to LPC (leather personnel carrier) mode. Nedd to check some of those out…

.

I use a Colt 6720 as my vacation gun to keep in the trunk. But during my day-to-daylife, I seem to find myself either coming or going to work. During these times I will have my work carbine in the trunk if driving to or from work (14.5" BCM ELW-f with 13" KMR rail).

But with my work needs removed, I have thought of carrying a long gun in the car. This would be for times when on long trips (100 miles or greater) or on vacation somewhere. The ability to use a long gun with little to no warning, especially within the car, has me thinking of other concepts than breaking an AR down.

I'm really considering buying a Tavor bull pup for this purpose. The gun can be stored in many of the same carriers that a broken down AR would fit into. It could be deployed in the same manner as an SBR, but without the legal hassle of interstate travel associated with an SBR.

ranger

03-14-2015, 10:40 AM

I have been watching this thread with interest. I picked up a Para TTR top end and built an AR with a folding stock. That rifle in a benign case might fit that bill.

HCM

03-14-2015, 10:50 AM

LSP972

03-14-2015, 11:13 AM

I use a Colt 6720 as my vacation gun to keep in the trunk. But during my day-to-daylife, I seem to find myself either coming or going to work. During these times I will have my work carbine in the trunk if driving to or from work (14.5" BCM ELW-f with 13" KMR rail).

But with my work needs removed, I have thought of carrying a long gun in the car. This would be for times when on long trips (100 miles or greater) or on vacation somewhere. The ability to use a long gun with little to no warning, especially within the car, has me thinking of other concepts than breaking an AR down.

I'm really considering buying a Tavor bull pup for this purpose. The gun can be stored in many of the same carriers that a broken down AR would fit into. It could be deployed in the same manner as an SBR, but without the legal hassle of interstate travel associated with an SBR.

Indeed, a thought-provoking conumdrum.

First, the availability issue. What has my immediate concern aroused now is how bloody FAST (think flash mob) these savages can organize, and appear seemingly out of thin air. That is a local-to-me problem, aggravated by the fact that of the four different routes I can use to get from my home to my workplace- which itself is on the DMZ- and/or back again, the two most expeditious ones run right through the heart of serious Indian country. The two safer routes are a tremendous roundabout, one involving crossing and re-crossing the Mississippi River. IOW, a last resort for when the threat indicator is in the red zone. We've had a couple of those times in recent memory, and the carbine was riding on the passenger seat next to me… un-cased.

When traveling/vacation/etc., I keep the carbine cased, "in the back" (in what passes for a trunk in a soccer-mom-mobile crossover). IOW, different responses for different threat levels.

Second issue… what long gun? The bullpup concept does indeed kill several birds with one rock. But, as noted earlier, my limited experience with the idea did not impress me in the slightest. Not saying the concept isn't valid, just that it isn't valid for ME. No doubt I could learn it fairly easily, but it just doesn't make sense to do that at this stage of my life. Besides, as also noted earlier, I have a really good "urban camouflage" carrier that a 16" carbine will fit into. And NO way am I gonna get on that Class 3 radar scope. As far as I'm concerned (and I mean this seriously, not trying to be ugly), Class 3 SBR/SBS guys and can owners are a great early warning trip wire for the rest of us… because, since they know exactly where to find them, who do you think the feds are gonna snarf up first??? I understand that you're talking about an issued company gun; I dunno whether you have personally-owned Class 3 stuff or not, and don't WANT to know.

My consideration of the Mini-14 was primarily cost (I had no idea Ruger had gotten so proud of them), and, to a lesser extent, the "good old boy" as opposed to the "Rambo wanna-be killer" perception that can be present regarding these two rifles. After a bit of thought, I realized the ridiculousness of that second consideration; given current attitudes and conditions, I'll be vilified in certain quarters even if I use a frigging flintlock. So. FIDO.

However, the cost angle is still there. I see absolutely zero reason to "go large" here; all I need is something reliable and accurate. I don't need the latest/greatest/operationally operating operator-approved mid-length Noveske/LaRue/Daniel Defense/whatever-is-hot-this-week platform. The more I look into the Ruger AR556, the more interested I become. Monday, I'll start calling my local contacts and try to round one up the easy way. The largest Ruger distributor in the United States is right here in town, so maybe I'll get lucky.

.

LSP972

03-14-2015, 11:15 AM

This is where the SIG brace pistols would really shine.

Agreed. I looked at one yesterday. But anyone who thinks the ATF is going to let "the one that got away" from them continue to slide… well, good luck with that.

.

Jeep

03-14-2015, 12:09 PM

HCM

03-14-2015, 12:15 PM

Agreed. I looked at one yesterday. But anyone who thinks the ATF is going to let "the one that got away" from them continue to slide… well, good luck with that.

.

I agree - just lamenting.

Just curious. Does LSP issue / allow AR patrol rifles ?

If so, I would rather argue I went with the gun I trained on and used to protect the people of LA for X of years than the "good old boy" argument.

Beat Trash

03-14-2015, 12:21 PM

Indeed, a thought-provoking conumdrum.

First, the availability issue. What has my immediate concern aroused now is how bloody FAST (think flash mob) these savages can organize, and appear seemingly out of thin air. That is a local-to-me problem, aggravated by the fact that of the four different routes I can use to get from my home to my workplace- which itself is on the DMZ- and/or back again, the two most expeditious ones run right through the heart of serious Indian country. The two safer routes are a tremendous roundabout, one involving crossing and re-crossing the Mississippi River. IOW, a last resort for when the threat indicator is in the red zone. We've had a couple of those times in recent memory, and the carbine was riding on the passenger seat next to me… un-cased.

When traveling/vacation/etc., I keep the carbine cased, "in the back" (in what passes for a trunk in a soccer-mom-mobile crossover). IOW, different responses for different threat levels.

Second issue… what long gun? The bullpup concept does indeed kill several birds with one rock. But, as noted earlier, my limited experience with the idea did not impress me in the slightest. Not saying the concept isn't valid, just that it isn't valid for ME. No doubt I could learn it fairly easily, but it just doesn't make sense to do that at this stage of my life. Besides, as also noted earlier, I have a really good "urban camouflage" carrier that a 16" carbine will fit into. And NO way am I gonna get on that Class 3 radar scope. As far as I'm concerned (and I mean this seriously, not trying to be ugly), Class 3 SBR/SBS guys and can owners are a great early warning trip wire for the rest of us… because, since they know exactly where to find them, who do you think the feds are gonna snarf up first??? I understand that you're talking about an issued company gun; I dunno whether you have personally-owned Class 3 stuff or not, and don't WANT to know.

My consideration of the Mini-14 was primarily cost (I had no idea Ruger had gotten so proud of them), and, to a lesser extent, the "good old boy" as opposed to the "Rambo wanna-be killer" perception that can be present regarding these two rifles. After a bit of thought, I realized the ridiculousness of that second consideration; given current attitudes and conditions, I'll be vilified in certain quarters even if I use a frigging flintlock. So. FIDO.

However, the cost angle is still there. I see absolutely zero reason to "go large" here; all I need is something reliable and accurate. I don't need the latest/greatest/operationally operating operator-approved mid-length Noveske/LaRue/Daniel Defense/whatever-is-hot-this-week platform. The more I look into the Ruger AR556, the more interested I become. Monday, I'll start calling my local contacts and try to round one up the easy way. The largest Ruger distributor in the United States is right here in town, so maybe I'll get lucky.

.

You are bringing up some interesting points.

While I have been kicking around the concept of a Tavor since they were introduced, I don't own one. The thing holding me back is that I am too old to learn a new system for such a limited usage. Not to mention the cost of one isn't cheap.

You definitely are in a unique position as to your potential threat and the need to prepare for it. Your "urban Camouflage" carrier is the way to go if not going with an SBR, AR pistol or a bull pup.

I personally wouldn't consider a Class 3 weapon for the purpose you are trying to prepare for. Potential for too many additional legal issues. Even as a LEO, I really don't want to get on the wrong side of Class 3 and the ATF. The SIG brace is a valid idea, but I agree that the ATF isn't done with that one yet. That leaves a 16" AR in my opinion.

I wasn't even aware that Ruger had made a DI AR until I read this topic. So I obviously have no experience with the gun. IF it's made somewhat close to spec and is reliable, then for the price, it's the way to go for you. If it's not as reliable as you might want, then I'd strongly consider looking into a Colt 6720, for a couple of hundred more.

Age has left my eyes to the point where I really appreciate a good RDS vs. iron sights. I spent the extra few bucks and bought a Pinpoint PRO for my traveling 6720. If you shop around on Memorial day, places like LAPG has sales that brings a PRO down to the $360 range. But if you're eyes aged better than mine did and you want to stay with iron sights, I might consider replacing the folding rear sight on that Ruger with a DD fixed rear sight. Add something simple and cheap like a Blackhawk Rifle bandoleer and you have a quick and somewhat effective manner to grab and carry a few extra magazines should you have to abandon your car.

There are a lot of topics on the internet dealing around survivalism and preparedness. The favorite topics seem to be Bug Out Bags and trunk guns. Most of them are very unrealistic scenarios and enough gear to outfit a rifle squad. Your topic is much more realistic and thought provoking. You got me thinking. Thanks...

LSP972

03-14-2015, 03:27 PM

I agree - just lamenting.

Just curious. Does LSP issue / allow AR patrol rifles ?

If so, I would rather argue I went with the gun I trained on and used to protect the people of LA for X of years than the "good old boy" argument.

Indeed they do; in fact, it is an issue item for everyone now, not just SWAT.

And the "trained on and used to protect" angle is what I intend to use. Great minds think alike…;)

.

LSP972

03-14-2015, 03:46 PM

Age has left my eyes to the point where I really appreciate a good RDS vs. iron sights.

Mine as well, most definitely… to the point I'm finally realizing that I need to start carrying the RDS-equipped pistols I had built a while back for the purpose.

I'm going to try the "irons" on that Ruger when I get one. If I can still use aperture sights well enough to put the bullets where I want to on a silhouette at 50 yards, then I won't bother with an RDS. That's one of those things that has to evolve. I have three Colts (6520, 6720, 6920), and all have RDS mounted; two AimPoints and an InSight MRDS. Been using red dot sights on a carbine since the early 90s, so I am well aware of their superiority. But for something like this, for a weapon that will be left basically un-attended until I remember to check it… simpler is better.

Yeah, some of the 'bug out' discussions can get pretty amusing; especially by the folks who have never been in a full-blown evacuation and have no clue how FUBAR that scenario is. And that's when the cops are trying to keep order. A for-real, every-man-for-himself "bug-out"? Good lord, I don't want to even think about that. Which is why I decided, long ago, that I'm "bugging in"… :D

.

LSP972

03-14-2015, 03:53 PM

A folding stock M1 carbine (Choate, I believe makes the stocks) might be an alternative. You don't need a lot of range, and being able to say you used an old WWII rifle might have some utility.

Thought about that, too. I think Kahr (aka Auto Ordnance) still makes a decent replica; no way in hell I'd use a genuine one for this. Nah, I think the fall-back on my experience and training is the approach to take on this issue. We were using carbines before carbines became cool (thanks to LSP552), so I've got quite a bit of both on paper.

.

Suvorov

03-14-2015, 05:36 PM

I've been a factory cert'ed Ruger armorer, maintained a batch of them, carried a few on patrol, and took them to some multi-day, 1k rd+ classes.

This is an awesome post!!!

Thanks so much for your insight into the mini.

I have some experience with the newer 580 and 581 series guns which I will post when I get to a better machine than my phone.

breakingtime91

03-14-2015, 06:33 PM

Fulton armory makes a good but expensive m1 carbine.

Jeep

03-14-2015, 07:00 PM

Thought about that, too. I think Kahr (aka Auto Ordnance) still makes a decent replica; no way in hell I'd use a genuine one for this. Nah, I think the fall-back on my experience and training is the approach to take on this issue. We were using carbines before carbines became cool (thanks to LSP552), so I've got quite a bit of both on paper.

.

Carbines are good. Right now it looks like cities and towns on the Mississippi river might have a bigger threat potential than elsewhere. For my own East Coast perspective, where I don't think the threat level is as high, I've been thinking of a relatively cheap used 30/30 with a decent low power scope. I like the way a 30/30 can punch through some metal if needed, I don't think it is likely I would need to shoot over 100 yards, and a "deer rifle" would sound better than a "high powered military style automatic assault rifle with a large capacity clip as was used in the Sandy Hook shooting."

I also think a couple of shots would likely be enough where I live.

Not sure about there on the banks of the Mississippi, though, especially when the federal government seems to be deliberately trying to stir things up. You might be facing some people with semi-auto AKs and the like. (And if you are facing that, an Aimpoint might be very, very nice to have).

ffhounddog

03-14-2015, 07:47 PM

Agreed. I looked at one yesterday. But anyone who thinks the ATF is going to let "the one that got away" from them continue to slide… well, good luck with that.

.

Well my question is Since I still have an AR pistol setup with the Brace, if I have to use it will it really matter. I know I will be vilified if I use it in a self defense scenario. Also it is a pistol so in some states you cannot have a loaded rifle in truck/car. I also shoot it once a quarter to verify zero. I have a A2 carry handle on it. I don't know but this is part of the reason why I built one. Flash mob I can put a lot of lead on target with one.

LSP972

03-14-2015, 07:48 PM

You might be facing some people with semi-auto AKs and the like. (And if you are facing that, an Aimpoint might be very, very nice to have).

Funny thing, that. I get to see just about everything that the local (and that encompasses pretty much all of southeastern Louisiana, minus the Greater New orleans cesspool) "authorities" sweep up off the street.

When I first stated this lab gig, we were seeing two or three AKs a week. Now, five years later, we see one every month or so; if that. I dunno if its because we got most of them already, they're keeping them stashed for The Revolution, or its due to the fact that you can no longer walk into a gun store or gun show, lay down a couple of hundred bucks, and walk out with a "chopper" and a case of Mekong Match.

Still, your point is valid. All it takes is one, and a non-traditional shopper/seeker-of-justice who knows how to use it.

In any case, I'll cross that bridge when I get the Ruger in my hands. Apparently, they have been selling like rainbow decals in Orlando in September; Lipsey's has them "on allocation", which is never a good sign in terms of availability.

.

Sigfan26

03-14-2015, 07:52 PM

Funny thing, that. I get to see just about everything that the local (and that encompasses pretty much all of southeastern Louisiana, minus the Greater New orleans cesspool) "authorities" sweep up off the street.

When I first stated this lab gig, we were seeing two or three AKs a week. Now, five years later, we see one every month or so; if that. I dunno if its because we got most of them already, they're keeping them stashed for The Revolution, or its due to the fact that you can no longer walk into a gun store or gun show, lay down a couple of hundred bucks, and walk out with a "chopper" and a case of Mekong Match.

Still, your point is valid. All it takes is one, and a non-traditional shopper/seeker-of-justice who knows how to use it.

In any case, I'll cross that bridge when I get the Ruger in my hands. Apparently, they have been selling like rainbow decals in Orlando in September; Lipsey's has them "on allocation", which is never a good sign in terms of availability.

.

Stock up on factory 20 rounders! Also, check Davidson's (if there's issues with it, at all, they'll replace it) and Sports South.

ETA:
Davidson's has a bunch of variants in stock, according to Gallery Of Guns

Kyle Reese

03-14-2015, 08:29 PM

LSP,
If you're so inclined, you could look at an Arsenal SLR-107FR (http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=F1ASLR10731&name=Arsenal+SLR-107FR+7.62x39+Rifle&groupid=11). It features the newer AK 100 series side folding stock, and is chambered in the ubiquitous 7.62x39mm. While not as svelte a choice as the 6720, 7.62x39mm pills will likely deter any baddies, as well as make short work of any shitty cover they might be using.

While it's certainly not a PC choice, Arsenal makes damned fine AK, and I prefer this stock over the underfolders.

Anyways, best of luck to you. Stay safe, sir.

ReverendMeat

03-14-2015, 09:15 PM

LSP, you keep mentioning the Ruger AR-556. I would suggest looking at the S&W Sport instead. They cost about twenty bucks more but I'd take one over the Ruger even then.

HCM

03-14-2015, 09:19 PM

LSP972

03-14-2015, 09:56 PM

LSP, you keep mentioning the Ruger AR-556. I would suggest looking at the S&W Sport instead.

As noted earlier in this thread, my son-in-law has a Sport. I have examined and fired it. Its an okay gun, and if it was all I could get my hands on, it would do.

I would like to correct an impression that some of you apparently have… I am NOT pinching pennies here. I have no problem spending several hundred more dollars on a Colt, etc. I just don't see the need to spend that on what will become, essentially, a disposable firearm… IF I can find a cheaper substitute that meets my accuracy/reliability standards. From what I've read so far, the Ruger AR556 is that rifle.

Curious as to why you would "take it (the S&W Sport) over the Ruger"… have you seen/handled/shot the Ruger?

.

LSP972

03-14-2015, 10:00 PM

The 107FR is a great rifle but at $200 above the going rate a colt AR its not quite an expendable car gun.

Yes. Besides, I doan want no steenkin' AK… because commie gun.;)

And I'd rather not add another caliber to inventory, let alone the need to "get current" on it.

.

ReverendMeat

03-14-2015, 10:59 PM

Curious as to why you would "take it (the S&W Sport) over the Ruger"… have you seen/handled/shot the Ruger?
.

I sell them. There's some things about the Ruger that rub me the wrong way, and it hasn't been on the market long enough for me to trust it. The Sports have been out for awhile now, we have good feedback on them from people who actually shoot their guns. I've personally sold about a hundred of them and the shop has easily sold over a thousand. On one of them the buttstock broke, presumably in transit. Outside of that, nobody has come back with any issues as far as function (as opposed to cosmetics) goes. We've sold far fewer of the Rugers and have already had to send a couple back. IMO the only reason to buy the Ruger over the Sport is if you're on a tight budget and the Sport is unavailable. If you aren't on a tight budget I see no reason not to get that Colt 6720. I don't recall EVER having to send back a Colt Defense rifle.

FWIW I'm not trying to hate on Ruger at all. They're a great company with a lot of great products and they're a pleasure to deal with.

SeriousStudent

03-15-2015, 12:28 AM

LSP972, have you considered adding a LAW Gen 3 folding stock adapter?

http://www.lawtactical.com/ar_folding_stock_adapter_gen_3_p/2014003.htm

Or would that just be polishing the cannonball?

I did read that you are not eager to go the SIG brace route, but it does make for a very compact package. I have a BCM 11.5" AR pistol equipped with the folding adapter, and it fits neatly into a Camelbak daypack sitting on the front passenger seat. Even with an Aimpoint H-1, Surefire X300 and a Colt 20-rounder in the mag well, it hides very well. The bag stays unzipped, and the weapon is very easily accessed. You can even fire a single round out of the Gen3 with the receiver extension flipped in the stowed position. I built it specifically for road trips, and it has done quite well in that role.

If you ever wander westward into Texas, you are more than welcome to borrow it and evaluate its utility for your situation. Hope that helps.

LSP972

03-15-2015, 08:51 AM

We've sold far fewer of the Rugers and have already had to send a couple back. .

For what issue/s?

.

LSP972

03-15-2015, 09:01 AM

LSP972, have you considered adding a LAW Gen 3 folding stock adapter?

http://www.lawtactical.com/ar_folding_stock_adapter_gen_3_p/2014003.htm

Now, by George, THAT is what I'd call a better mousetrap. You have me intrigued, sir.

With this, I could stow it in a large day pack, put the contents of my "get home" bag and a couple of 20 round AR magazines in said day pack, and take it out of the car at night; basically, replace my get home bag with a larger one, yet not a full-blown ruck.

Thanks a ton, sir, for complicating what I thought would be a fairly straight-forward deal…;)

.

Malamute

03-15-2015, 12:06 PM

Now, by George, THAT is what I'd call a better mousetrap. You have me intrigued, sir.

With this, I could stow it in a large day pack, put the contents of my "get home" bag and a couple of 20 round AR magazines in said day pack, and take it out of the car at night; basically, replace my get home bag with a larger one, yet not a full-blown ruck.

Thanks a ton, sir, for complicating what I thought would be a fairly straight-forward deal…;)

.

For your intended use, they make a lot of sense.

I thought you may have been aware of them (post 13).

SeriousStudent

03-15-2015, 12:13 PM

Now, by George, THAT is what I'd call a better mousetrap. You have me intrigued, sir.

With this, I could stow it in a large day pack, put the contents of my "get home" bag and a couple of 20 round AR magazines in said day pack, and take it out of the car at night; basically, replace my get home bag with a larger one, yet not a full-blown ruck.

Thanks a ton, sir, for complicating what I thought would be a fairly straight-forward deal…;)

.

That's exactly what I have done. Spare mags, small fixed blade knife, two Mainstay ration bars, and a PSK with a Camelbak bladder.

You're welcome to examine it if you wish. I'll try and shoot some pics for you as well.

Suvorov

03-15-2015, 12:33 PM

So I realize that the Mini-14 is kind of off the burner right now, but I'll still share a little experience on the 580/581 series and the Mini14 in general for follow on members who might be considering a Mini.

I have always had a soft spot for the Mini14, most likely due to the influence of Hannibal Smith on my formative days. I picked up my first on in college during the 1990s before my first AR15. It was a well used Mini in a Butler Creek folding stock and came will all the problems that are sited with the Mini. Poor accuracy and poor reliability when using many of the after market 30 round magazines available in the 1990s. After picking up my first AR15, I sold the Mini but kept the 20 round magazines that worked figuring that I may one day pick up another one.

In 2007 I was living in California and we hadn't yet figured out how to bring back ARs to California. After reading about Ruger retooling the Mini I decided to purchase one. I picked up an early version 580 stainless ranch rifle. The 580 series guns had improved sights (brought over from the PC9 carbines), a newer stock with rubber butt, and new tooling which is supposed to improve accuracy and reliability. Later production 580 series rifles also had a newer heavier tapered profile barrel but mine had the same "pencil" barrel profile that earlier Mini14s used. No doubt Ruger wanted to use up the stock of earlier barrels.

I found the new 580 to be a lot stouter than earlier 180+ series Mini's from a fit standpoint. The new sights are an improvement over the earlier Ranch Rifles and have a protected front sight blade and a ghost ring rear sight. The front sight blade is a little wide for great precision but certainly usable out to 200 yards or so. Adjustments are made to the rear sight by a somewhat crude method of using allen keys to drift and rotate the ghost ring. Not nearly as precise and adjustable as your typical AR iron sight but usable. Like all Ranch Rifles, it comes with integral scope bases and scope rings which are pretty good overall but doesn't offer the best cheek weld.

My 580 has proved to be reliable with good magazines (Ruger, Masen, and 1990s vintage Pro-mag 20s) and reasonable accurate. In a procedure Skinhead mentioned, I re-torqued the gas block and then I shimmed the stock to try to minimize and shifting that might be going on. I mounted a Burris 2-7X scope to it which works well and is more than powerful enough for the Ruger. I shot the Mini for accuracy a couple years ago along with my ARs. The Mini was not as accurate as a stock M4 type rifle but not that far off and certainly usable out to 200+ yards if need be. Ten 10 shot groups were shot with 4 different types of ammo and groups were measured for accuracy. I apologize for my inability to correctly format the tables.

Ammo Group # Size Average Standard Deviation Ave + StDev
Mini 14 M193 Ball 1 3.500 4.625 1.269 5.894
2 6.000
3 4.375
Black Hills 68gr OTM 1 4.000 2.438 1.413 3.850
2 2.063
3 1.250
PrviPartisan 75gr OTM 1 4.125 4.000 0.177 4.177
2 3.875
M885 Green Tip 1 3.625 2.906 1.016 3.923
2 2.188
Total Average 3.500

By contrast, my Smith and Wesson M&P15A proved to be about about 1 MOA more accurate

Ammo Group # Size Average Standard Deviation Ave + StDev
M&P 15A M193 Ball 1 3.688 3.250 0.472 3.722
2 3.313
3 2.750
Black Hills 68gr OTM 1 1.250 1.896 0.581 2.477
2 2.063
3 2.375
PrviPartisan 75gr OTM 1 2.813 2.250 0.795 3.045
2 1.688
M885 Green Tip 1 2.563 2.781 0.309 3.091
2 3.000
Total Average 2.550

Recently I adopted a newer 580 series blued rifle with the heavier tapered barrel. I have yet to do any accuracy testing with it but from the few times I have shot it, it seems to be at least as accurate as my stainless gun.

While the newer wooden stock is attractive and the rubber butt doesn't slip around, I also find the length of pull to be too long for comfort. From handling guns at the gun stores, it seems that the synthetic stocks are a little shorter.

At the risk of beating an already dead horse, my overall opinion on the Mini14 will echo those already posted above. All in all the Min14 is a decent little autoloading rifle. On its own, I would feel comfortable with it for SD purposes and confident with it out to 200 yards. As long as I have good magazines, it is reliable and while maybe not soldier proof durable, as long as you don't abuse them any more than any other sporting rifle they will easily hold up. If you live in a state with gun bans or want a autoloading rifle that will not shout "Evil Baby Killing Assault Rifle", then the Mini14 is a very solid choice. I use my stainless rifle as a camping carbine in Kalifornia. That said, a good AR pattern rifle outclasses and performs the Mini14 in pretty much all aspects.

IMHO the Mini is best when used as a "gray rifle" that won't attract attention. Thus all the latest machinations of it in "super tactical (http://ruger.com/products/mini14TacticalRifle/specSheets/5846.html)" guise are silly wastes of money as they negate the Mini's best attribute. That said, my one exception would be would be when the rifle is paired with a folding stock. The folding stocks I have seen and used have been pretty stout and when folded make the rifle a lot more compact than any non-SBR or pistol AR can get. Paired with a 16 inch barreled Mini and you have a real compact rifle that can be shot with the stock folded.

Hope this helps even though the horse may already be long dead.

Jeep

03-15-2015, 12:39 PM

That's exactly what I have done. Spare mags, small fixed blade knife, two Mainstay ration bars, and a PSK with a Camelbak bladder.

You're welcome to examine it if you wish. I'll try and shoot some pics for you as well.

I hadn't heard of this either. How does it hold up under hard usage?

SeriousStudent

03-15-2015, 12:51 PM

I hadn't heard of this either. How does it hold up under hard usage?

I have not run it through a carbine class yet. It's made two range trips with me, and one trip with a friend. This configuration has a total of 782 rounds through it, with no stoppages or malfunctions. Ammo used has been Hornady TAP 75-grain 5.56, Speer 62-grain .223 Gold Dots, Remington UMC 55-grain .223. Magazines used were NHMTG 20 and 30-rounders, and Magpul Gen 1, 2 and 3 30-round PMAGS.

One thing I like very much about this rig is that it can be discreetly carried slung under a jacket, and deployed in under two seconds. That would be a useful capability in an emergency situation while walking home, while avoiding the "patrolling with an AR" appearance mentioned earlier in the thread.

I also have a Winchester Model 12 shotgun that fills a similar role. It disassembles into two halves, and rides in a child's sling bag. It is much slower to bring into action, and is therefore used for defense at the overnight stop while traveling.

Hope that helps.

45dotACP

03-15-2015, 02:18 PM

Unrelated note....a blem PSA magpul lower found my home via the internet as a result of this thread....

No wallet is safe.

Suvorov

03-15-2015, 02:27 PM

No wallet is safe.

It is when it is empty :(

Jeep

03-15-2015, 03:10 PM

I have not run it through a carbine class yet. It's made two range trips with me, and one trip with a friend. This configuration has a total of 782 rounds through it, with no stoppages or malfunctions. Ammo used has been Hornady TAP 75-grain 5.56, Speer 62-grain .223 Gold Dots, Remington UMC 55-grain .223. Magazines used were NHMTG 20 and 30-rounders, and Magpul Gen 1, 2 and 3 30-round PMAGS.

One thing I like very much about this rig is that it can be discreetly carried slung under a jacket, and deployed in under two seconds. That would be a useful capability in an emergency situation while walking home, while avoiding the "patrolling with an AR" appearance mentioned earlier in the thread.

I also have a Winchester Model 12 shotgun that fills a similar role. It disassembles into two halves, and rides in a child's sling bag. It is much slower to bring into action, and is therefore used for defense at the overnight stop while traveling.

Hope that helps.

That does help. Thanks. Wish I had one of those when I was carting an M-16 around, and it sounds like the possible (though a bit pricey) solution to a lot of situations.

SeriousStudent

03-15-2015, 03:59 PM

Glad to be of assistance. I did forget two things. I bought four of the Lancer 10-round polymer mags. I wanted to see how that ran if I go to someplace where I can only have a pistol with 7 rounds in a 10-round mag. All four of those ran with no issues as well.

The way I normally load the pack has a Colt(NHMTG) 20-rounder in the magwell, and three 30-rounders with the red SAW springs SAW, Magpul follower and their Ranger floorplates.

And I forgot the FAK that I have in the Camelbak. It's a Blue Force Gear Trauma Now! kit with a pair of TQ's and a Benchmade rescue knife on the outside.

I always carry three 1-quart bottles of Smartwater in the car, they would be used to fill the bladder.

OP - I hope that was not too much of a side-track.

jh9

03-15-2015, 04:12 PM

Recently I adopted a newer 580 series blued rifle with the heavier tapered barrel. I have yet to do any accuracy testing with it but from the few times I have shot it, it seems to be at least as accurate as my stainless gun.

If you ever get around to it, I'd be interested in your thoughts on this. A move to CA is possible int he not too distant future, and my plan for a California semiauto rifle was either a new mini or a Kel-Tec SU-16.

Suvorov

03-15-2015, 04:37 PM

If you ever get around to it, I'd be interested in your thoughts on this. A move to CA is possible int he not too distant future, and my plan for a California semiauto rifle was either a new mini or a Kel-Tec SU-16.

What would be your use for the rifle? The Kel-Tec isn't really "gray" and as long as you don't buy a "listed" AR Then you can bring in just about any AR into the state as long a it has a bullet button or equivalent. While the BB is a slap in the face, you can do much of the things you can with an AR in the free states as far as drills go. For competition you can go the "featureless AR route" or get really fast at changing mags with a bullet button. For post disaster gun - most of us here are of the opinion that if things are bad enough to be patrolling the house/neighborhood with a rifle, having a deactivated bullet button is the least if your problems. So unless you are after a "gray" rifle as a mentioned or a a HD carbine - there isn't much need to pick up a Mini or KelTec.

jh9

03-15-2015, 04:46 PM

What would be your use for the rifle? The Kel-Tec isn't really "gray" and as long as you don't buy a "listed" AR Then you can bring in just about any AR into the state as long a it has a bullet button or equivalent. While the BB is a slap in the face, you can do much of the things you can with an AR in the free states as far as drills go. For competition you can go the "featureless AR route" or get really fast at changing mags with a bullet button. For post disaster gun - most of us here are of the opinion that if things are bad enough to be patrolling the house/neighborhood with a rifle, having a deactivated bullet button is the least if your problems. So unless you are after a "gray" rifle as a mentioned or a a HD carbine - there isn't much need to pick up a Mini or KelTec.

I'll need to do more checking into the CA rifle thing, then. Moving with a pistol seemed straight-forward, but I assumed a CA-legal AR would be more complicated than maybe it is. (Monster man "non pistol" grips, no threaded muzzle, etc.)

The AR is a build on an Anderson AM-15 lower in a dissipator config (magul moe rifle fixed stock; threaded muzzle, a2 hider, fsb has bayonet lug). So you're saying I can just put a bullet button in and that's all?

(I can split this off into a new thread if needed. Apologies for any interruptions.)

ReverendMeat

03-15-2015, 08:32 PM

For what issue/s?

.

Failures to eject

Suvorov

03-15-2015, 08:49 PM

The AR is a build on an Anderson AM-15 lower in a dissipator config (magul moe rifle fixed stock; threaded muzzle, a2 hider, fsb has bayonet lug). So you're saying I can just put a bullet button in and that's all?

Yup! Going to PM.

Duces Tecum

03-15-2015, 09:06 PM

I thought you may have been aware of them (post 13).

I missed that reference, too. Glad you readdressed the matter more explicitly (and with a link!)

LSP972

03-16-2015, 07:45 AM

Failures to eject

Sure-enough failures to eject, or failures to eject precipitated by failures to fully extract? Which usually can be cured by a D-ring or O-ring...

Not trying to find fault with you, here... just thinking out loud.

.

LSP972

03-16-2015, 07:51 AM

(I can split this off into a new thread if needed. Apologies for any interruptions.)

No drama, bud. I have always wondered about those who get big-time annoyed at thread drift; especially when said drift is somewhat relevant to the topic. In this case, we're talking about employing a carbine/shoulder gun, for personal/individual defense, in a decidedly urban setting. Kalifornia certainly meets that definition.

.

Chuck Haggard

03-16-2015, 08:43 AM

I didn't have time to dig through all of the posts, had a long weekend and I'm catching up,.....

I used to be a Mini14 guy, owned two of them, stainless guns, liked them a lot. Sold both of them eventually.

The Mini used to be a go-to for guys who needed a .223 rifle for things like ranch work, rural patrol, etc. Cost was the factor that made people go that route over the AR15, and often a misguided thought that the ARs weren't reliable and the Mini had some sort of "kinda like and M14" advantage.

Downsides of the Mini include accuracy (somewhere between AK47 and shotgun pattern accuracy depending on the gun), inability to mount optics like one can with the ARs on a pic rail, trying to mount things like lights and such, magazines (that was, and is, a very big deal), ergonomics, and frankly they aren't nearly as reliable or durable as a good AR, with vastly less parts and repair options (damn near everything has to go back to Ruger to get fixed).

Outside of the crazy low prices on Colt ARs right now (if you need one, buy one NOW!!!!!!), the S&W Sport would be my advice over going with the Mini.

For "car gun" work I am becoming a fan of the AR pistols, and one of those is going to be replacing my Kel Tec sub2000 9mm in the near future. (BTW, my Kel Tec works, and rather well).

Gadfly

03-16-2015, 10:42 AM

The Sub 2000 is probably the only Kel Tec product I have ever wanted to own. Stupid simple blowback operation. Folds up small. Uses my pistol mags. Cheap. BUT... Crappy trigger. Sights are "meh". Manual of arms is "Meh". Yet they seem to run and run and run.

I have not owned one, but have played with a couple and was impressed. For what they are (a $300 compact just in case trunk gun) I kind of like it.

That being said, if rounds were being exchanged, I would feel better with an AR.

Chuck Haggard

03-16-2015, 10:50 AM

My sub is for when I am not carrying a "real" long gun, especially on road trips and such. That it uses Glock 9mm mags is a plus since that's what I EDC regularly.

Mine is well over 2000 rounds of various types of ammo through the gun with zero stoppages, and only been cleaned once. I did have to replace the front sight, but that was a inexpensive and easy fix.

LSP972

03-16-2015, 10:56 AM

For "car gun" work I am becoming a fan of the AR pistols...

Chuck, I'm not looking for a "car gun" in the direct definition of the term. Got that already.

What I'm wanting is a more-or-less disposable option to dragging around one of my Colts, for use as a; pardon me while I throw out a tactical-shmactical buzz word; "force multiplier" for SHTF situations.

I have had the entire spectrum of excellent advice here (and many thanks to all who have responded), but the more I think about it, the less inclined I am to get exotic with this. In fact, if it weren't for the slow reloading/bulky ammo aspect, I go with a gauge and a 50/50 mix of buckshot and bear balls; all slugs in the tube, of course, in memory of Louis A...;)

Just for grins... anyone have any experience with the Kel-Tec SU16CA?

.

HCM

03-16-2015, 11:16 AM

Just for grins... anyone have any experience with the Kel-Tec SU16CA?

.

A couple of my coworkers had them behind the granola curtain before everybody figured out the whole off list lower /bullet button thing. I was not impressed, it made the mini 14 look appealing.

Chuck Haggard

03-16-2015, 11:21 AM

In my experience the only Kel Tecs that work reliably are the P32 and the 9mm sub2000

ReverendMeat

03-16-2015, 11:49 AM

Sure-enough failures to eject, or failures to eject precipitated by failures to fully extract? Which usually can be cured by a D-ring or O-ring...

Not trying to find fault with you, here... just thinking out loud.

.

Most people who are buying these rifles wouldn't know one FTE from another. They come in saying "the gun is jamming up" and sometimes trying to figure out the specifics is like pulling teeth.

JodyH

03-16-2015, 12:20 PM

I have a Bulgarian AK-74 stashed behind the rear seat of my double cab truck with a bicycle cable lock through the mag well and around the seat frame. Fast to get out yet secured against a smash and grab burglary.
The AK makes for a good, cheap beater rifle. A Chinese SKS would work great in that role as well.

Gadfly

03-16-2015, 12:23 PM

A Chinese SKS would work great in that role as well.

Ahhh for the days of yore and the $100 SKS. I even recall seeing them as two for $175... But I was too young, broke and foolish to jump on them when I had the chance.

JodyH

03-16-2015, 12:33 PM

I saw some SKS's a few weeks back as surplus for under $300.
Heck, a C&R Enfield jungle carbine would be a great cheap truck gun.

Chuck Haggard

03-16-2015, 01:49 PM

Chuck, I'm not looking for a "car gun" in the direct definition of the term. Got that already.

What I'm wanting is a more-or-less disposable option to dragging around one of my Colts, for use as a; pardon me while I throw out a tactical-shmactical buzz word; "force multiplier" for SHTF situations.

I have had the entire spectrum of excellent advice here (and many thanks to all who have responded), but the more I think about it, the less inclined I am to get exotic with this. In fact, if it weren't for the slow reloading/bulky ammo aspect, I go with a gauge and a 50/50 mix of buckshot and bear balls; all slugs in the tube, of course, in memory of Louis A...;)

Just for grins... anyone have any experience with the Kel-Tec SU16CA?

.

I think we mean the same thing, I'm talking about a long gun in the car for whatever reason.

I tend to carry one in case I run into a trooper that needs help, situations such as might be an issue in your AO, etc.

coldcase1984

03-17-2015, 10:44 PM

A Slainte force multiplier thought: 11.5-in. Commando pistol w a Crimson Trace Railmaster/SF Fury Light and SF 60-rounder. No assembly required. Snatch from passenger side seat/transmission hump clamp and dispense love/hate. Or... A Ruger SRH Alaskan .454.

Tamara

03-18-2015, 06:50 AM

Heck, a C&R Enfield jungle carbine would be a great cheap truck gun.

You mean a Century "jungle carbine". ;) A real No.5 Mk.I is a six- or eight-hundred dollar gun.

Tamara

03-18-2015, 06:54 AM

I have had the entire spectrum of excellent advice here (and many thanks to all who have responded), but the more I think about it, the less inclined I am to get exotic with this.

"Exotic" was when those Steyr-Mannlicher M95 stutzens were, like, $50 wholesale and Marko kept one in his trunk with a cheap single-point clipped to the cavalry sling swivel and a bandoleer of 8x56R surplus on clips. :D

Kyle Reese

03-18-2015, 08:04 AM

"Exotic" was when those Steyr-Mannlicher M95 stutzens were, like, $50 wholesale and Marko kept one in his trunk with a cheap single-point clipped to the cavalry sling swivel and a bandoleer of 8x56R surplus on clips. :D

Stick a bayonet on that sucker and go retro, Austro-Hungarian style.

LSP972

03-18-2015, 08:13 AM

Stick a bayonet on that sucker and go retro, Austro-Hungarian style.

While the urge to go all LeeRoy Jenkins on them might be strong, I'd rather keep them off of me from a distance...;)

.

LSP972

03-18-2015, 08:15 AM

And, PSA has 6720s for $799 through today.

I may just succumb to common sense...

.

Tamara

03-18-2015, 08:25 AM

And, PSA has 6720s for $799 through today.

I may just succumb to common sense...

.

Yeah, that's a pretty strong argument for reason right there. That's a Colt for middlin'-decent AK money.

Kyle Reese

03-18-2015, 08:31 AM

And, PSA has 6720s for $799 through today.

I may just succumb to common sense...

.

You won't regret picking one up.

Chuck Haggard

03-18-2015, 08:34 AM

If I'd have had the money for the PSA daily deal I woulda bought one of those skinny barrel flat tops for $799. Best carbine Colt makes IMHO.

Beat Trash

03-18-2015, 08:54 AM

If I'd have had the money for the PSA daily deal I woulda bought one of those skinny barrel flat tops for $799. Best carbine Colt makes IMHO.

I couldn't agree more.

I use a 6720 as my "car gun" when traveling. And I paid a few bucks more than the $799 for mine.

Chuck Haggard

03-18-2015, 09:35 AM

Back in the day I had to have Ken Elmore build me a skinny barrel flat top, Colt didn't make such a critter back then. Ken and I, having both carried M16s up and down hills and such, agreed that heavy barrels sucked.

Wayne Dobbs

03-23-2015, 01:17 PM

You can do a decent AR, even a Colt, for such a decent price that I'd never consider another Mini. I struggled with one a long time ago and an old Marine Gunny described it as a POS Fence Post. It's barely ok for a light duty fence post.

UNK

03-23-2015, 09:31 PM

For liberal democrats I would like the new DPMS AR in .308. You could shoot 2 or three with the same shot. I've got a good friend, a former Army sniper and confirmed rifle guy tell me they were a really good rifle. I think the lightest one is about the same weight at an AR-15.

Thanks for all the responses. The repeated admonitions against the Mini-14 are pretty much what I expected; I appreciate ya'll validating my concerns. And I was amazed by the current prices; indeed, a decent AR carbine can be had for the price of a Mini-14 these days.

My #2 son-in-law has one of those S&W Sport carbines, and it is an okay gun. But my city cop pal here at the lab clued me in to the new Ruger DI AR; with a dealer price of $510, and a local FFL who is into showing love to FROG (Fat Retired Old Guy) cops in my pocket, hmmmmm....

Anyway, an AR carbine is the smarter move, since I've got tons of magazines, etc.

Many thanks for screwing my head back on straight...

.

TR675

03-24-2015, 04:03 AM

For liberal democrats I would like the new DPMS AR in .308. You could shoot 2 or three with the same shot.

Is there a bag limit on lib dems? I've been thinking about a safari in Austin but the taco truck blind I would need is kind of pricey.

LOKNLOD

03-24-2015, 06:14 AM

Is there a bag limit on lib dems? I've been thinking about a safari in Austin but the taco truck blind I would need is kind of pricey.

I've got a buddy with a outdoor channel hunting show, maybe we could get them to film it and cover some costs?

"Next week, we take you on a guided hunt in Austin, sponsored by Taco Palenque!"

Chuck Haggard

03-24-2015, 09:29 AM

Having seen one DPMS after another turn into a steaming pile of fail I wouldn't buy anything they make, except their ambi safety, that's pretty decent.

rob_s

03-24-2015, 10:31 AM

I may have already said this, but...

I kind of can't blame people that wind up with sub-par ARs. While the market has exploded, and largely caught up in terms of checking boxes on a chart, it is also lagging in terms of what would make for a readily-available, top shelf, updated, AR.

What I'd love to see is a Colt 6720 updated to include a mid-length gas system, MOE handguard and stock, and a 12.0 Lightweight, free-floated, handguard. This is something I could heartily recommend to a new buyer as being both reliable, functional, and fitting of modern utility (longer reach, bracing off of barricades, installation of a light, mounting of a two-point sling, etc.). I'm not even entirely sold on the mid-length and could skip that if necessary.

Jay Cunningham

03-24-2015, 10:34 AM

The 6720 just with MagPUL SL furniture would work.

HCM

03-24-2015, 10:36 AM

Byron

03-24-2015, 11:20 AM

This morning, on the way into work, I saw a crowd of perhaps 20 or so liberal southern democrats hanging out in the church parking lot on the southeast corner of that intersection; and they weren't waiting to get on a tour bus, if you get my drift.

For liberal democrats I would like the new DPMS AR in .308. You could shoot 2 or three with the same shot.

Is there a bag limit on lib dems? I've been thinking about a safari in Austin but the taco truck blind I would need is kind of pricey.

TR,

You'd be using the wrong kind of blind because you're not hearing the dog whistle.

"Liberal democrat" or "liberal southern democrat" used in these contexts means "black people." It's one of those oh-so-hilarious phrases that gets tossed around on gun forums from time to time, and you just have to read between the lines:

...felony Indian country...
...if the natives get restless, it is a perfect place to slow down and ambush yuppie (and not so yuppie) motorists...
...no way am I going to be the next Reginald Denny...
...usually, at that time those folks are crashed somewhere after a night of... doing what they do.

Get it? Now you can ask if there's a bag limit on black people.

Or should we just go back to code words? Because hunting permits for people with different political ideas is so much less offensive than hunting permits for black people :rolleyes:

HCM

03-24-2015, 12:12 PM

After seven years living in the people's utopia liberal democrats created in California they deserve what ever befalls them.

I don't know what things are like where Byron is from but in Austin / Travis County TX, which is increasingly liberal and democrat, the already low black population (estimated between 8-12%) is actually decreasing.

http://kut.org/post/african-americans-are-austins-only-shrinking-ethnic-group-heres-what-some-are-doing-about

TR675

03-24-2015, 12:15 PM

TR,

You'd be using the wrong kind of blind because you're not hearing the dog whistle.

"Liberal democrat" or "liberal southern democrat" used in these contexts means "black people." It's one of those oh-so-hilarious phrases that gets tossed around on gun forums from time to time, and you just have to read between the lines:

Get it? Now you can ask if there's a bag limit on black people.

Or should we just go back to code words? Because hunting permits for people with different political ideas is so much less offensive than hunting permits for black people :rolleyes:

Maybe I'll just confine my gentle mocking and related tomfoolery to the Romper Room.

rob_s

03-24-2015, 02:14 PM

The 6720 just with MagPUL SL furniture would work.

The thing is that (a) it's not a factory option you can get (or if it is, I haven't seen it at gun shops) and (b) I'm not certain the handguard is quite long enough, nor is it free-floated. A Certain part of this equation has to be giving people what they think they want, and I think a 12.0 free-float of some sort is pretty much a required feature these days.

The Colt OEM and particularly the OEM 2 are steps in the right direction. If they sell well enough, an analyst at OEM 6720 is a possibility.

Yes and no. First, as you mention, there's no 6720 OEM. Second, it's still not a complete gun. Perhaps a local enterprising shop may figure out that buying a bunch of 6920 OEMs and putting aftermarket furniture on them before they go on the shelf is a good profit center, but WalMart isn't going to be doing that.

HCM

03-24-2015, 02:32 PM

The thing is that (a) it's not a factory option you can get (or if it is, I haven't seen it at gun shops) and (b) I'm not certain the handguard is quite long enough, nor is it free-floated. A Certain part of this equation has to be giving people what they think they want, and I think a 12.0 free-float of some sort is pretty much a required feature these days.

Yes and no. First, as you mention, there's no 6720 OEM. Second, it's still not a complete gun. Perhaps a local enterprising shop may figure out that buying a bunch of 6920 OEMs and putting aftermarket furniture on them before they go on the shelf is a good profit center, but WalMart isn't going to be doing that.

I agree Walmart won't but for those one step up from Walmart buyers, a "build - a-gun" while you wait could be a good business opportunity for a LGS with a few rail, stock and grip options in stock, especially if they had a few samples people could put their hands on.

GT Distributors is already showing OEM-1s on their website at $679.

Jeep

03-24-2015, 03:56 PM

"Liberal democrat" or "liberal southern democrat" used in these contexts means "black people." It's one of those oh-so-hilarious phrases that gets tossed around on gun forums from time to time, and you just have to read between the lines

Byron: With respect, LSP wasn't talking about black people as a group. As a cop he protected numerous black people. What he is referring to are thugs. Many of them are indeed black, (and probably all or almost all in this group) but that neither can, nor should, give them a pass. Nor should the racism that led to the beating of the innocent Reginald Denny (or lots of white people every year) get a pass. Violence against innocent people of whatever color is wrong, and it is equally wrong to excuse members of one group when they are committing crimes against another group. The sad truth is that in much of urban America a lot of the thugs who commit racial (and non racial) violence are black. It is an equally sad truth that many try to excuse them, which helps neither blacks nor race relations in America.

If you read some more of LSP's comments and you will see he has no time for thugs of any race, and equally no problem with decent people of any race.

Sometimes things that seem to be "dog whistles" are nothing of the sort and that is the case here.

LSP972

03-24-2015, 04:02 PM

Get it? Now you can ask if there's a bag limit on black people.

Or should we just go back to code words? Because hunting permits for people with different political ideas is so much less offensive than hunting permits for black people :rolleyes:

Well, sorry to have twisted your knickers, but climb down off that self-righteous stump for a damned minute and note that _I_ didn't say one word about "hunting" anybody. What _I_ was talking about is groups of these people who congregrate for the sole purpose of tearing shit up, and will beat down anyone who gets in their way. When "their way" occurs on a public right-of-way, and I'm putzing along minding my own business, guess what?

I believe this board has an "ignore" feature. If I offend you that much talking about reality, feel free to use it on me.

.

Byron

03-24-2015, 05:38 PM

Byron: With respect, LSP wasn't talking about black people as a group.
...
If you read some more of LSP's comments and you will see he has no time for thugs of any race, and equally no problem with decent people of any race.

Sometimes things that seem to be "dog whistles" are nothing of the sort and that is the case here.
I didn't claim that LSP hates all black people. I claimed, and stand by my claim, that LSP was using code words to communicate racial information. If I was completely off-base, I think he would have said so, rather than just telling me to piss off.

Like I said, these code words aren't new. When I was reading Glocktalk 15 years ago it took me a while to figure it out, but I eventually realized what was meant when certain people said, "a democrat tried to rob me today."

It would have been just as accurate to say, "Racial tensions are extremely high in my area and I drive through a predominantly-black neighborhood on a daily basis. There have been racial attacks in this area in the past, and I wish to prepare myself in case I find myself targeted." As frank as that may be, I don't think anyone would say that's racist at all. I'm not telling LSP how to speak: I'm just pointing out that racial issues can easily be broached without code words.

Well, sorry to have twisted your knickers, but climb down off that self-righteous stump for a damned minute and note that _I_ didn't say one word about "hunting" anybody. What _I_ was talking about is groups of these people who congregrate for the sole purpose of tearing shit up, and will beat down anyone who gets in their way. When "their way" occurs on a public right-of-way, and I'm putzing along minding my own business, guess what?

I believe this board has an "ignore" feature. If I offend you that much talking about reality, feel free to use it on me.
My knickers are just fine, but thank you.

You made your comments over 10 days ago. I did not say anything until now specifically because of the reason that you highlight: recent posters were talking about hunting human beings, and were referring back to your language.

I just wanted to make sure TR realized what he was joking about, because anyone who stumbles across this forum and sees discussion of a bag limit on "liberal democrats" might get the wrong impression of people here. To make my point required a multi-quote to provide context, but I never accused you of wanting to hunt anyone.

LittleLebowski

03-24-2015, 06:07 PM

That might be best. :)

However, and this is directed at EVERYONE, posting (even jokingly) about killing people you disagree with isn't going to be tolerated at pistol-forum.com -- no matter what sub-forum it's in. The same goes for derogatory racial comments. Please refer to the PF Code of Conduct:

And now we're back on topic. Not the topic of dissecting ad nauseum what Tom already warned folks about. If you see something wrong at PF, use the Report Post button. Help the mods do their jobs.

UNK

03-24-2015, 06:35 PM

deleted Quote didn't work

UNK

03-24-2015, 06:53 PM

Including the DPMS GII?

Having seen one DPMS after another turn into a steaming pile of fail I wouldn't buy anything they make, except their ambi safety, that's pretty decent.

LSP972

03-24-2015, 06:58 PM

If I was completely off-base, I think he would have said so, rather than just telling me to piss off.

Well, that is true enough.

.

Chuck Haggard

03-24-2015, 08:42 PM

Including the DPMS GII?

No.

I literally don't know anybody with one of those.

Every OTHER DPMS AR has been junk though. I'll stand by that statement.

BWT

03-24-2015, 09:27 PM

No.

I literally don't know anybody with one of those.

Every OTHER DPMS AR has been junk though. I'll stand by that statement.

I shot a DPMS SASS that was won in a competition by a friend.

He had to send it back after the barrel loosened within the gun and began to wobble.

Personally, I wouldn't take my chances on a DPMS. Especially when there are things like the S&W MP10, etc. available and given the gravity of the topic.

Any defensive weapon must first be reliable. You won't notice a sub-MOA grouping in a defensive situation when you're trying to figure out why your gun is short stroking because something like the carrier key is loose, (or heck barrel), RE is coming loose, etc.

Lots of the threaded components in AR's are staked (Receiver Extension, Fasteners on the BCG) and Gas Blocks are pinned is because of those things.

DPMS historically has had a spotty record. They may've turned over a new leaf, but to echo Chuck's sentiments. I wouldn't trust my life to a DPMS, and I can't in clear conscience recommend the same.

ETA: The barrel loosened around the 300 round mark.

ETA 2: I happened to talk to a shooter years ago about his AR, and he stood by a 1/8'' twist, .223 Wylde Chambered, SS barreled RRA AR for precision shooting. He was also a military shooter. Those features aren't something that wouldn't be found in a gun used for military service. I'll say this delicately because I'm not a military shooter, or really anything but a casual shooter. However, he only shot that in precision rifle competition, and I believe he was only shooting .223 through it. So, I think it was in a very controlled environment.

However, ensuring things basic things as true 5.56x45mm chambers, proper receiver extension staking, using AR BCG's versus M16 BCG's, staking of the fasteners on the BCG are things that are routinely missed or not even something manufacturers like DPMS and others attempt to perform.

Those issues in and of themselves can cause massive head aches for performance/reliability.

That's just assembly and parts design, then you get into the quality of the parts actually used and the waters muddy even further.

Anyway, there are much more qualified people than myself commenting here. They're not snubbing DPMS because of it's price point or a brand superiority complex; it's just out of (unfortunately) legitimate concern about the quality of the weapon for the intended use and concern for the end-user.

ETA: This post was hurried and I want to communicate something that I failed to communicate earlier. Being in a profession doesn't necessarily make someone's opinion of something correct. Being an outsider looking in, we would all think that most Police Chiefs in large cities, would have lots of experience in the nitty gritty of Law Enforcement, and a career that saw many different roles, positions, and accolades. Which after a career of experience and years of dedicated service, in their twilight years professionally would be selected for that role because of those attributes. That would be, unfortunately, in a lot of cases incorrect. What matters more (from what I've gathered) is the professional accomplishments (such as a Doctorate degree) or how the Mayor feels about that officer's personal beliefs and other affiliations, etc.

I see shooters sometimes in a similar circumstance, some military shooters do have a distinguished background for that skill set and are very squared away in their opinions. Some are simply in that role right now; while commendable. Their being in that role doesn't mean that they have an intimate understanding or knowledge about their weapons system.

I have a family friend that served as an Army Officer, and three of his sons have served as Army officers. They've been deployed to Afghanistan, Iraq, and other places. As well as graduated from West Point, Ranger school, Cavalry schools, etc. But truthfully, they don't know much about the AR pattern of rifles; beyond how to maintain it, etc. They simply don't care. Operation orders on how to move an entire battalion from the United States to a Foreign country and mobilize for war and things of that nature; sure.

But the intricacies on what extractor spring or the color of the insert they have in their bolt? 3/4 of them probably couldn't tell you if their life depended on it. No slight against them, they just didn't need to know that information.

Just pointing out something that I see as a trend out there.

Seven_Sicks_Two

03-25-2015, 04:54 AM

This post was hurried and I want to communicate something that I failed to communicate earlier. Being in a profession doesn't necessarily make someone's opinion of something correct. Being an outsider looking in, we would all think that most Police Chiefs in large cities, would have lots of experience in the nitty gritty of Law Enforcement, and a career that saw many different roles, positions, and accolades. Which after a career of experience and years of dedicated service, in their twilight years professionally would be selected for that role because of those attributes. That would be, unfortunately, in a lot of cases incorrect. What matters more (from what I've gathered) is the professional accomplishments (such as a Doctorate degree) or how the Mayor feels about that officer's personal beliefs and other affiliations, etc.

I see shooters sometimes in a similar circumstance, some military shooters do have a distinguished background for that skill set and are very squared away in their opinions. Some are simply in that role right now; while commendable. Their being in that role doesn't mean that they have an intimate understanding or knowledge about their weapons system.

I have a family friend that served as an Army Officer, and three of his sons have served as Army officers. They've been deployed to Afghanistan, Iraq, and other places. As well as graduated from West Point, Ranger school, Cavalry schools, etc. But truthfully, they don't know much about the AR pattern of rifles; beyond how to maintain it, etc. They simply don't care. Operation orders on how to move an entire battalion from the United States to a Foreign country and mobilize for war and things of that nature; sure.

But the intricacies on what extractor spring or the color of the insert they have in their bolt? 3/4 of them probably couldn't tell you if their life depended on it. No slight against them, they just didn't need to know that information.

Just pointing out something that I see as a trend out there.

This is something I run into all the time working at the LGS...

65-80 year old with no experience: "I want to buy a handgun. My son-in-law told me to buy either a sub-compact XD-40 or a Smith and Wes... Smith and Weston 38 because it is small and light."

Me/my co-worker: "Sir/Ma'am... I really wouldn't recommend that. They're difficult to grip properly, have excessive recoil and are difficult for novices to shoot well." (paraphrased)

65-80 year old with no experience: "Well, my son is law: is in the Navy/is in the Local PD/has lots of guns."

Me/my co-worker: "Ooookay... your total is... Please fill out this form..."

The only thing more aggravating is when I've closed someone on a sale and someone decides to chime in about: "9mm's have no stopping power/you should really buy an AK/M14 instead/I have this other brand and it is the best/the best thing about AKs is that they can also shoot M16 ammo."

I don't want to discount the skills and knowledge of those folks that are masters of their craft, but simply having current/prior service doesn't make one a subject matter expert.

That being said, don't blindly trust the counter monkey at your local gun shop. Most of us are only there for the employee discount, and the cool factor that comes with playing with guns for a (meager) living. It all comes back to not relying on the Appeal to Authority.

FWIW, DPMS is one of those brands I send back fairly regularly for repair... the running joke is that DPMS stands for: "Didn't Pass Mil Spec."... and I live in a state where ARs exist only as glorified range toys that hold 10 rounds and have mag changes that require the use of tools.

UNK

03-25-2015, 05:12 AM

Are you specifically talking the DPMS GII? I don't know first hand so I am genuinely interested.

FWIW, DPMS is one of those brands I send back fairly regularly for repair... the running joke is that DPMS stands for: "Didn't Pass Mil Spec."... and I live in a state where ARs exist only as glorified range toys that hold 10 rounds and have mag changes that require the use of tools.

rob_s

03-25-2015, 06:09 AM

DPMS, and their high rate of failure due to bolts cracking, was probably 50% of the impetus for my research that eventually became The Chart.

The other 50% was trying to figure out what made Colt so good that (A) I rarely heard of any issues and (B) people I considered to be in the know almost universally suggested them.

Jeep

03-25-2015, 08:24 AM

But the intricacies on what extractor spring or the color of the insert they have in their bolt? 3/4 of them probably couldn't tell you if their life depended on it. No slight against them, they just didn't need to know that information.

Just pointing out something that I see as a trend out there.

Three quarters? I'd say more like 99%. The Army simply doesn't train anyone but armorers in such things (and the armorers are going to know M-4's and maybe M-16's--not AR's). They only way you are going to learn them is to own your own AR and find out yourself. Personally, I am learning a lot about the innards of AR's just from this thread.

UNK

03-25-2015, 09:09 AM

It is good info to know about any manufacture having quality or design issues. That info would be very helpful in making a decision. Most recently Glock and M&P come to mind. However those issues didn't stop me from buying a j frame.
I would not purchase an AR-10 based on weight alone. I have no need for a rifle that heavy regardless of caliber. The DPMS GII can be a very lightweight rifle with one model coming pretty close in weight to a 5.56 AR.
I don't know what the current situation is at DPMS, I don't know if they have addressed or are addressing QC issues. I don't know if the GII is having issues or not. An internet search reveals nothing that would cause me alarm.

DPMS, and their high rate of failure due to bolts cracking, was probably 50% of the impetus for my research that eventually became The Chart.

The other 50% was trying to figure out what made Colt so good that (A) I rarely heard of any issues and (B) people I considered to be in the know almost universally suggested them.

rob_s

03-25-2015, 09:17 AM

It is good info to know about any manufacture having quality or design issues. That info would be very helpful in making a decision. Most recently Glock and M&P come to mind. However those issues didn't stop me from buying a j frame.
I would not purchase an AR-10 based on weight alone. I have no need for a rifle that heavy regardless of caliber. The DPMS GII can be a very lightweight rifle with one model coming pretty close in weight to a 5.56 AR.
I don't know what the current situation is at DPMS, I don't know if they have addressed or are addressing QC issues. I don't know if the GII is having issues or not. An internet search reveals nothing that would cause me alarm.

DPMS' reputation and history alone would keep me away, but you pays your money and you takes your chances.

There's benefits to the j-frame that would lead me to be willing to overlook the M&P issues S&W may have. I can't see a benefit to the Gii, especially in the context of this thread, that would lead me take a chance on that gun.

Beat Trash

03-25-2015, 10:07 AM

No.

I literally don't know anybody with one of those.

Every OTHER DPMS AR has been junk though. I'll stand by that statement.

This is my experience with DPMS as a whole. I have not seen a GII gun in the wild, nor do I know anyone with one. On paper the DPMS GII is the answer to my 308 dreams. But even if it turns out to be an excellent gun with outstanding QC in the build, I don't know if I want to take the gamble with one, due to DPMS' history of putting out junk.

I saw a new Colt 6720 online last week for $799. For the intended purpose that LSP972 is wanting to use his gun for, that's still a great gun with a known record of being a quality build. I know that LSP was looking at the Ruger AR's, as he can get them cheaper than the $799 sale price of the 6720. And if the Ruger AR is reliable, then I agree with the thought of going with the Ruger. With zero experience on the Ruger DI guns, I can't comment positive or negative on their reliability. I do like some of the features that the Ruger DI gun has that the M&P Sport lacks. A person could always buy one, test the crap out of it, and if you're satisfied, then lube it, load it and you're done. If not, sell it off and then consider buying a Colt 6720.

If one were ever confronted with a group of Thugs who's aggressive actions warranted deploying a long gun, reliability of the long gun being used can NOT be questionable. To me, the extra couple of hundred dollars I may need to spend are worth the peace of mind in the quality of the product I am depending on to function in time of need. That's why my personal choice for a travel gun is a 6720.

LSP972

03-25-2015, 10:21 AM

If one were ever confronted with a group of Thugs who's aggressive actions warranted deploying a long gun, reliability of the long gun being used can NOT be questionable. To me, the extra couple of hundred dollars I may need to spend are worth the peace of mind in the quality of the product I am depending on to function in time of need. That's why my personal choice for a travel gun is a 6720.

Bottom line, right there. (And ditto on the M&P Sport, Beat Trash. I know its a good carbine, but it just seems... lacking. Perhaps we're too snobbish for our own good...;) ).

As to my situation; the Ruger is pretty much unobtainium right now, and while 6720s are obtainium, by the time I pay shipping & transfer fees, I might as well buy locally. So, my current 6720 gets the nod until I get around to buying a replacement.. whatever that may be.

Certainly not a DPMS, though.

Thanks again for all the discussion/comments/advice.

.

Chuck Haggard

03-25-2015, 10:45 AM

I thought that about the Sport as well, until I started flogging the test gun I have. I think it's legit.

JodyH

03-25-2015, 12:44 PM

PTR91 GI, $900, 20 rounds of 7.62, reliable, durable, accurate. Can even install a collapsing stock.
What's not to like?

Jeep

03-25-2015, 01:49 PM

PTR91 GI, $900, 20 rounds of 7.62, reliable, durable, accurate. Can even install a collapsing stock.
What's not to like?

Putting rounds through the exterior wall of a house down the street? A 7.62 is a lot of firepower for an urban setting.

JodyH

03-25-2015, 02:06 PM

I'm good with that. If it will penetrate a house two blocks away it should have no problem penetrating a '88 Cutlass Supreme.
I can think of a lot more urban situations that would require barrier penetration than I can rural.

Jay Cunningham

06-19-2015, 07:21 PM

The 6720 just with MagPUL SL furniture would work.

Check it out:

http://clydearmory.com/colt-le6920-oem1-w-magpul-moe-sl-furniture.html

http://clydearmory.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/1/4/14.jpg

:D

LSP972

06-19-2015, 08:11 PM

I still haven't bought anything… been using the 6720.

I guess I need to see if the Ruger DI gun is available now. I'm told it is most definitely a buyer's market for AR's right now, to the point that the "market" is glutted with guns. I know one of my co-workers has been going nuts buying stripped lowers left and right.

Thanks for the bump, Jay.

.

Maple Syrup Actual

06-19-2015, 10:38 PM

It is good info to know about any manufacture having quality or design issues. That info would be very helpful in making a decision. Most recently Glock and M&P come to mind. However those issues didn't stop me from buying a j frame.
I would not purchase an AR-10 based on weight alone. I have no need for a rifle that heavy regardless of caliber. The DPMS GII can be a very lightweight rifle with one model coming pretty close in weight to a 5.56 AR.
I don't know what the current situation is at DPMS, I don't know if they have addressed or are addressing QC issues. I don't know if the GII is having issues or not. An internet search reveals nothing that would cause me alarm.

I have a GII showing up next week as well as the .308 FAMAE.

Traditionally I have not been impressed with the DPMS stuff but over the past few years, even the guys who aren't good have gotten pretty good, so I'm kind of hoping it'll surprise me.

That Guy

12-29-2016, 05:58 AM

Forgive me P-F, for I have sinned.

I keep thinking about Ruger Minis. I think a light, handy little rifle like that would be awesome. (I mean, AR's are nice too, but they have all these pistol grips and magazine wells and such pokey bits poking out of them... It's just not the same thing.) Perhaps it's due to being a misplaced redneck, or for some other reason, but I can't just shake the feeling that I want one. I realize they are nowhere near the same in reliability and durability as a good AR or AK, but... Damn it, I still want one. For reasons. And now just recently, one popped up for sale.

The rifle is serial number 186-9andsomething, so it lacks the improvements of a late model Mini. According to the sales ad mostly used in hunting so hopefully has a low round count. Price is about $500. Now, to place the asking price into context:

* Nobody is importing new Ruger Mini rifles.
* A new AK would cost about $1000.
* A new AR would cost about $1500 or upwards.
* I can't spend a grand or more on a new rifle right now, anyways.

Now, do I really need a new rifle? Well, no, but what's that got to do with anything. :p I have a perfectly serviceable AR, and I have an AK (that needs work to be serviceable...but that's a different conversation). However. The gun banners still have a hard-on about banning semi-automatic rifles, and while they failed to explicitly ban AR's and AK's in the last go-around, they have publicly stated that a ban of these specific types of rifles is one of their goals. So we live in a situation where buying rifles while it's still possible seems like a good idea, and the widdle Mini is not the first in line for any future gun bans. Maybe buying a Mini is not completely idiotic under these circumstances? While it's not a combat rifle, hey - snagging another semi-automatic rifle into the safe can't hurt. Or maybe I'm just really good at inventing excuses why I should buy the gun since I think it's cute and I want to own one...? :p

The plan would be to keep the rifle pretty much stock, except for possibly adding a light mount. Just get a half dozen to a dozen standard capacity magazines and call it done. Hopefully the only use the rifle would need to see is having fun at the range.

The Mini-14 is pretty reliable but not durable. Best reliability is with stainless steel guns, copious amounts of lube, 20rd OEM mags, using quality domestically produced .223 SAAMI spec ammo. Where there are problems, it's usually one or more deviations from this. Firing pins go between 2500-5000rds, extractors about that time as well. Other small parts here and there. Gas block screws should be checked often. Mechanical accuracy is "accurate enough" for its intended purposes, and certainly exceeds the ability of most shooters. A good shooter can produce some interesting deviations with hot barrels in some guns.

When the above advice is heeded, I expect most Minis to go ~200-300 rds at a stretch, which will get most folks through a LE training rotation or TD1 of a sleep-away class. If the gun isn't PM'ed thereafter, all bets are off.

This is awesome info! Thank you very much. If you don't mind, I would like to ask you to expand a bit on this: what parts should one have access to for keeping their Mini operational? Are these how widely available (I can't exactly order parts straight from Ruger since they refuse to ship anything overseas...)? Any pointers on maintenance - just clean the gun normally, or do some parts need special attention, any recommended lubrication procedures, etc?

Willard

12-29-2016, 06:37 AM

* A new AR would cost about $1500 or upwards.
* I can't spend a grand or more on a new rifle right now, anyways.

You can get a good Colt 6720, 6721, or 6920 for well under $1K. I've seen the 6720 for $799 on occasion, and even now at less than $900. You could also get a Colt OEM for well under 800, and add the finishing parts you want for not a lot more.

That Guy

12-29-2016, 07:17 AM

You can get a good Colt 6720, 6721, or 6920 for well under $1K.

Negatory. I spent about $1600 on my 6920. (I forget what the exchange rate was back then, might have been a tad more than that. And that was a budget AR, Daniel Defense and such boutique rifles start at around $2300 and go up from there...) Stuff costs more in this country than it does over there in the US.

(Magazines are not as cheap here as in the US, either. I have to admit feeling jealousy over your magazine prices. :/ )

coldcase1984

12-29-2016, 12:49 PM

Still got a couple Minis in the family battery.

One is a Liberty Model 180-series; Dad bought first one he saw for sale in TN. Reminded him of M1 Carbines he used in Korea but "hit harder."

He was no fan of the M16. He was trained on them in '64 because SAC got them first. Hated the buffer spring sound, aluminum/plastic "toy gun feel".

We shot it a lot from summer '76 through my going to Lackland for Basic the next summer.

Anyways, my Mom confiscated it as her own after she figured out he'd snuck another gun in! So it's not been shot much since and the biggest varmint ever shot w it was a possum.

They're both gone now, and I got the old skinny 1-12 twist walnut stock blaster out the other evening, cleaned it, laser bore-sighted it , gave it a PF paint job on the front sight.

Yesterday it punched 3 55-grain TAP loads into 3/4 in at 50 yds w my 57-year-old eyes.

It's now in my rotation of deer guns and hoping to clip some old does before the season ends in January.

Call it a sentimental journey with a 40-year-old heirloom.

My serious guns are ARs, this one is for fun.

ETA: considering getting my cop/machinist buddy to thread it. Be more fun suppressed...

Buckshot

12-29-2016, 06:45 PM

You can get a good Colt 6720, 6721, or 6920 for well under $1K. I've seen the 6720 for $799 on occasion, and even now at less than $900. You could also get a Colt OEM for well under 800, and add the finishing parts you want for not a lot more.

Didja notice the thingy under his name that mentioned the 3rd world country part?

Willard

12-29-2016, 08:34 PM

Didja notice the thingy under his name that mentioned the 3rd world country part?

Nope. My situational awareness is sh!t as you point out. Culturally insensitive, but I'm aware now. I'll consider myself appropriately chastised.

Buckshot

12-30-2016, 06:18 PM

Didn't mean to chastise, amigo. I understood your confusion.

Malamute

12-30-2016, 07:56 PM

Price is about $500.

If you don't mind, I would like to ask you to expand a bit on this: what parts should one have access to for keeping their Mini operational? Are these how widely available (I can't exactly order parts straight from Ruger since they refuse to ship anything overseas...)?

At the point a Mini is 1/3 the price of an AR, they make some sense. Id have another one if they were so priced here now, just as a knock around and utility/defensive-ish gun for places that scary black guns are problematic or attract more attention than desirable.

Parts are one of the weak points of a Mini, Ruger doesn't allow most internal parts out as far as I understand it, they are mostly factory only for repair only. I dont recall EVER seeing spare firing pins, extractors, bolts and such available as spares just because you want them. You buy them and shoot them, if they break, you send it to the factory or an authorized service center (if they exist) for repair.

Willard

12-30-2016, 09:10 PM

Didn't mean to chastise, amigo. I understood your confusion.

Post was purely in jest...trying to be self-deprecating but doesn't always work online. No offense taken and didn't mean to offer any.

coldcase1984

12-31-2016, 11:22 AM

That Guy

12-31-2016, 01:04 PM

Great idea! Thanks!

OlongJohnson

12-31-2016, 09:49 PM

The local big-box sporting goods store's $812 w/tax clearance price on their display model FNAR makes me think that may be the way to go for a non-pistol-grip semi. 20" light fluted. Slickguns says Bud's had it for what would work out to about $900 shipped, insured and transferred a year and a half ago. Lowest current price is $1200. Used ones are around mid-$900s with lots of days left on GB. There are conventional butt stocks available that bolt up, basically turning it into a ShortTrac with a rail and DBM. Seems likely to be more accurate and reliable, not to mention bigger punch, than a Mini-14. Mag prices suck, but from time to time may fall to USP45 pistol mag MSRP. How stupid would that be?

Malamute

12-31-2016, 10:10 PM

Check Numrich Arms for Mini-14 parts. That post above worried me about keeping Mom's "Little Honey" going for a couple more generations. Thinking a few springs and firing pins oughta do it.http://www.gunpartscorp.com/Manufacturers/Ruger-33474/Rifles-40406/Mini-14180Series-39655.htm

Good find.

FWIW, I believe in Numrichs parts, "replacement" means not a factory part, which their firing pins are so marked.

That Guy

01-01-2017, 07:13 AM

And most of the parts on their list were marked as sold out. Those who have dealt with this company more, do the parts come and go from their inventory or is the situation one where they get a bunch of parts once and when they're gone, they're gone?

Sent from my Infernal Contraption using Tapatalk

Rex G

01-03-2017, 05:26 PM

Now that this thread has re-awakened, I thought I would mention that the Mini/Ranch Rifle seems a reasonable solution for RV-ing through states/provinces that have problems with some better options. My already-retired wife is quite ready to see some places where no AR can go, when I finally get around to retiring from wearing a piece of tin on my shirt. We have a pair of 580-series Ranch Rifles.

I was, once upon a time, certified to protect the citizens of Houston with an AR15. When the front sight of the AWB-era LE-only Colt Govt Carbine became fuzzy, I sold it to a colleague with younger eyes. (Another factor was that the timed qual was getting to be a bit too athletic; once I am in prone position, getting to my feet, to run to the next firing position, is not accomplished quickly.) I reckon an AR would be the better choice for me when in jurisdictions that allow the AR. Ours is a BCG Lightweight Middy upper, on an S&W M&P15 lower, with RRA LRPK and Colt A2 stock. The stock prevents it from fitting into anything discreet, unless broken-down, but I really like the A2 stock. We may buy or build another AR soon, with a smaller profile.

For the moment, as I am still active, but no longer certified by the PD to tote an AR, and PD policy applies 24/7, my vehicular long gun would be one of our three Remington 870 pump guns. My usual take-to-work gun has been an 870P with a Vang-comped barrel, but my new chief may dislike porting*, and I am starting to need real sights, so I have a Remington 24545 factory barrel en route, that has factory rifle sights. I may install a Trijicon or XS front sight.

I may try using my old-school Remington folding stock, for the first time in years, as it only works for me with iron sights, taller than a bead-on-pedestal. I used to find the recoil quite tolerable with the folding stock, because its long L.O.P. was OK, thanks to my long monkey arms, but my left shoulder may not be so sturdy anymore. (My right shoulder does not do well with shotgun recoil, but I shoot long guns lefty, due to left-eye dominance.)

Next on my (potential) shopping list, if the folder does not work well for me, is the adapter that will allow me to mount a Limbsaver pad on my Magpul SGA stock, with the idea of one of my pair of 870Ps becoming a designated slug gun. Yes, I remember Louis Awerbuck, and regret waiting too long to sign-up to attend his shotgun training.

*Our new chief has not yet changed any firearms policies. I just want to be instantly prepared, if he does.

HCM

01-03-2017, 05:47 PM

Buckshot

01-03-2017, 06:46 PM

another barrel option: https://www.midwayusa.com/product/814319/remington-barrel-remington-870-12-gauge-3-18-1-2-improved-cylinder-with-xs-rifle-sights

Those are the DEA sights - a good rugged design but they are on the same sighting plane as a bead - no bueno with the factory folder. I have a couple of those barrels & would gladly trade them for 18" barrels w/ the standard Rifle sights.

That Guy

01-09-2017, 08:13 AM

Firing pins go between 2500-5000rds, extractors about that time as well. Other small parts here and there.

Numrich sells firing pins, Brownells extractors. Any other small parts that are known for breaking and should be kept on hand?

UNK

01-17-2017, 09:42 PM

I have a GII showing up next week as well as the .308 FAMAE.

Traditionally I have not been impressed with the DPMS stuff but over the past few years, even the guys who aren't good have gotten pretty good, so I'm kind of hoping it'll surprise me.

I'd like to know how the DPMS turned out.

Maple Syrup Actual

01-17-2017, 09:44 PM

Oh, quite well for the relatively short duration I had it. Nothing about it that caused me concern at all.

Sent from my SM-N900W8 using Tapatalk

That Guy

03-01-2017, 06:26 PM

The Mini-14 is pretty reliable but not durable. Best reliability is with stainless steel guns, copious amounts of lube, 20rd OEM mags, using quality domestically produced .223 SAAMI spec ammo. Where there are problems, it's usually one or more deviations from this.

Just to clarify, one should use specifically the 20 round Ruger magazines, not the 30 or 40 round ones?

Bigghoss

03-03-2017, 05:49 PM

Just to clarify, one should use specifically the 20 round Ruger magazines, not the 30 or 40 round ones?

I can't speak specifically to the factory mags of any capacity, but the only aftermarket mags for the Mini series that I am aware of are stuff like Promag and Tapco, and maybe some no-name foreign junk. So stick with OEM for sure. Does Ruger make 40 round mags? I don't see them on their site.

That Guy

03-03-2017, 06:46 PM

I've definitely seen 30 round magazines for sale on-line with claims that this is an original Ruger brand magazine. I seem to recall a 40-rounder (I distinctly remember wondering just how far that thing will stick out of the gun) but I can't seem to immediately find one for sale. That one might have been an aftermarket one.

ST911

03-03-2017, 06:51 PM

Just to clarify, one should use specifically the 20 round Ruger magazines, not the 30 or 40 round ones? Sorry I missed this. Yes, that was the specific recommendation of Ruger and the experience of some agencies.

That Guy

03-03-2017, 06:56 PM

Roger that. Thank you! Now I know exactly what magazines are worth buying.

That Guy

03-16-2017, 06:07 AM

My rifle has a muzzle device that looks a lot like a Choate M-14 look-a-like flash hider. In the bottom of the muzzle device there is a threaded hole that looks like a set screw used to live there. Said set screw is probably somewhere on the ground between the firing line and target stands of my local rifle range, because I neglected to check its tightness before shooting... Anyone have any clue what sort of screw fits there? :p

That Guy

03-16-2017, 08:51 AM

Oh, neat! I got a reply from Choate. Apparently the set screw is there just to hold the flash hider in place during installation. So I didn't lose anything important. :)

Tokarev

03-13-2020, 09:19 AM

Old thread and probably not much has changed. If anything the Mini remains (relatively) expensive and many ARs remain (relatively) cheap. But Ruger does still seem fully committed to producing the Mini-14 and there are several blued and stainless versions to choose from. Rifles can be had in .223, 7.62x39 or .300 BLK. For a short while the Mini was available in 6.8 but Internet fury over the SAAMI vs SPC II chamber probably pretty much killed that gun off...

One interesting development over these last few years is the reintroduction of the original Ruger folding stock. The stock is being made for Ruger by Samson Mfg and is available on Samson's website.

https://www.samson-mfg.com/a-tm-folding-stock-for-the-ruger-mini-14.html

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2020/2/13/first-look-samson-mfg-a-tm-mini-14-folding-stock/

Price, as can be seen above, is surprisingly good and the stock looks to be of good quality. Or at least quality equal to the 1980s original. Down side is the stock seems to have exceeded sales expectations. A stock ordered today probably won't be delivered for several months while Samson works at getting caught up. Personally I hope they take their time and continue to make a nice product vs cutting corners to fill orders.

What's missing now is a reproduction gas block with the sling swivel mounted to the left side. Hopefully Samson or maybe even Ruger will make a more appropriate gas block. While they're at it a bayonet lug front sight would also be nice.

The stock is not perfect and is a somewhat outdated design just like the rifle it is made for. No length of pull adjustment. No provision to accept a different stock or pistol grip. Heck it is made from wood and not some weather resistant material. Still I like the look and am glad to see the stock back on the market.

I do have to wonder if Ruger will announce a complete factory rifle. My gut says no given the MSRP of such a gun. It will likely have a store price of $1,000. Will people buy such an expensive Mini or will they be content with buying a new stock for a rifle they might already own? If nothing else we can probably expect an uptick in used gun prices.

Another thing I wonder about is a stock with a pistol brace. Then maybe Ruger can make a Mini-14 Charger pistol with the front sight cast into the top of the gas block.

Sent from my SM-A505U using Tapatalk

OlongJohnson

03-13-2020, 03:41 PM

With SCR rifle production coming back online, it's hard for me to understand any new Ruger sales.

https://fightlite.com/lowers/scr-rifle-lowers

Bigghoss

03-14-2020, 12:47 AM

With SCR rifle production coming back online, it's hard for me to understand any new Ruger sales.

https://fightlite.com/lowers/scr-rifle-lowers

The pepper stock really does it for me.

Wooosh

03-03-2023, 11:31 AM

Is there a place to get 0.050 stainless steel gas bushings for the Mini-14? I know that there are aluminum bushings from Accuracy Systems, but I never got around to the idea of a gas bushing made from aluminum. A while back, there was someone on one of the Ruger forums offering steel bushings.

JonInWA

03-12-2023, 03:46 PM

Glenn E. Meyer

03-14-2023, 02:03 PM

That's why I have a plain jane Mini-14. But be aware, it will be figured out. Canada and Norway banned them after rampages. Get nut with one and kiss them goodbye. That is unless Clarence and company actually do something specific about AWBs. Don't hold your breath on that. I'm coming around to the viewpoint that they don't want to or don't have the votes to do such. The Ruger PCCs and now the Henrys and then the Bond levers are folks seeing more inclusive bans coming down the pike while Clarence and Company fart around with the majesty of court procedures.

JonInWA

03-14-2023, 07:18 PM

With SCR rifle production coming back online, it's hard for me to understand any new Ruger sales.

https://fightlite.com/lowers/scr-rifle-lowers

Those are really interesting. Anyone credible we know done any testing/vetting/fielding of them?

Best, Jon

Dorsai

03-14-2023, 08:51 PM

I built up a Fightlite SCR for my all-State/California rifle. I don't live in CA, but I have friends there and I visit. Therefore, I want a rifle that is legal, but is as effective as it can be. The current configuration is an amalgam of the two pics below. The top pic is the original. I am still using the same scope, which is a Leupold 1.5x5 with a 5.56mm BDC. I ended up using the lightweight upper for my daughter's rifle built on a KE Arms KP15 lower.

The second pic shows the current upper, but with a scout scope (Hi-Lux 2-7x) EER Scout scope. I mounted it for shits and giggles and I have to say that eye relief and sight height is perfect. You'll notice the front ring is on the handguard. I never shot it this way, so I don't know if it would retain zero, assuming it could be be zeroed, but there you go. Anyway, that is the current upper with the original Leupold optic. Zero malfunctions.

If you are going to build one, I recommend an upper receiver without a forward assist. Aero Precision makes a good one. Since it uses an abbreviated bolt carrier that is incompatible with the forward assist anyway, might as well do without. Because the charging handle is really close to the hand, using the left hand the way you normally do with a standard AR is cramped. It is much easier to hold the forend with the left hand and rack the bolt with the right. The next tip is to set it up with an ambi charging handle. Another reason for an upper receiver without a forward assist. It can't be used anyway and it can get in the way of running the charging handle.

For CA, I have a dump pouch with a half dozen 10rd mags. They're also good for the range and shooting from a bag. An ambidextrous mag release works really well because the standard is to far forward for your trigger finger. An ambi mag release is right under your left thumb as you grasp the mag with your left hand.

The Leupold is a better scope. There are better scopes than the Leupold because it is kind of old and the illumination is not enough for daylight, but I had it. The "defect" is height. It is as low as I can get it, but it is still a little too high. I should add a cheek riser to the stock. The 1" Hi-Lux is a perfect height.

102497

102498

102499

john c

03-19-2023, 06:50 PM

Those are really interesting. Anyone credible we know done any testing/vetting/fielding of them?

Best, Jon

The Fightlight complete lowers are $699 plus tax, shipping, and FFL fees. Combine this with an upper, and you're at or above the (obscene) price of a new mini-14 or mini-30. You can save a couple hundred bucks by finding a used one. The mini-14/30, with all it's faults, is a known quantity. Parts are available and Ruger is a solid company, in for the long haul.

I have nothing bad to say about the Fightlight, but when a deal on a used 580 series mini-14 came up a few months ago, I grabbed it.

O4L

03-19-2023, 07:25 PM

But with the Fightlite lower and a decent AR upper you should get better accuracy and it uses AR magazines.

That takes care of the two main negatives of the Mini 14 for me.

Borderland

03-19-2023, 07:51 PM

Hmmm. Well, earlier this week the Washington state House passed an assault weapons ban, which will likely also pass in the Senate; our governor will sign it with relish in a heartbeat. A Mini-14/Mini-30 is one of the few semi-auto rifles not on the ban list (a SKS somewhat surprisingly is, but maybe I shouldn't be so surprised). A Mini sans Tactical Timmy stuff may be a viable choice, at least until the ban is ruled unconstitutional, as I suspect it eventually will. Best, Jon

I just read this. I'm in WA and own a Mini. It appears to me that it is restricted for future sale or transfer within the state. It isn't on the list but features include shrouds over the barrel which both my Mini and M-1 carbine have. That might have been added in the last few days, IDK. I'm going to consider it restricted anyway.

Makes little difference to me. If I need to sell either I can have a dealer ship to a buyer out-of-state. If you have one you can keep it which is what I will do. Those and AR's should be a big hit at the range for new shooters in a few years. You know, like a Thompson or MP-40 would be for a boomer. How the hell did you get one of those? ;)

That bill is still in committee but sure to pass into law.

I'm sure that dealers here stocked up on AR's months ago and sold every one they had, even with the mag restrictions already in place. If you owned the 20's before last summer you're GTG.

Borderland

03-19-2023, 08:46 PM

The Fightlight complete lowers are $699 plus tax, shipping, and FFL fees. Combine this with an upper, and you're at or above the (obscene) price of a new mini-14 or mini-30. You can save a couple hundred bucks by finding a used one. The mini-14/30, with all it's faults, is a known quantity. Parts are available and Ruger is a solid company, in for the long haul.

I have nothing bad to say about the Fightlight, but when a deal on a used 580 series mini-14 came up a few months ago, I grabbed it.

Yep, even with all the fleas it ain't half bad. I trimmed mine out and it shoots just fine. I don't have anything bad to say about a 580 with a trigger job and a bushing swap. I see they're still using M-14's in UKR. Imagine that. Kilt on the battle field by an M-14 or a Maxim machine gun for that matter.

The M-14 was just an improvement of the Garand. There is noting inherently bad about the design.

john c

03-19-2023, 09:20 PM

I just read this. I'm in WA and own a Mini. It appears to me that it is restricted for future sale or transfer within the state. It isn't on the list but features include shrouds over the barrel which both my Mini and M-1 carbine have. That might have been added in the last few days, IDK. I'm going to consider it restricted anyway.)

I'm in CA, and living with the same restrictions for the past 23 years. Unless there is some WA specific language in the definitions in the bill, both the Mini-14 and M1 carbine have top handguards, not barrel shrouds. They should be fine.

In the end, you'll benefit from the lawsuits we've filed in CA. Our AWB is about to fall, and then get appealed back to the 9th Circuit. The Bruen decision ties their hands pretty tight. My guess is that you won't have an AWB for very long. If the antis were smart, they wouldn't appeal the CA AWB to the 9th Circuit. That would leave your AWB in place for longer while you guys had to start the whole process over.

Borderland

03-20-2023, 09:05 AM

I'm in CA, and living with the same restrictions for the past 23 years. Unless there is some WA specific language in the definitions in the bill, both the Mini-14 and M1 carbine have top handguards, not barrel shrouds. They should be fine.

In the end, you'll benefit from the lawsuits we've filed in CA. Our AWB is about to fall, and then get appealed back to the 9th Circuit. The Bruen decision ties their hands pretty tight. My guess is that you won't have an AWB for very long. If the antis were smart, they wouldn't appeal the CA AWB to the 9th Circuit. That would leave your AWB in place for longer while you guys had to start the whole process over.

Here's the language in the bill.

(I) A shroud that encircles either all or part of the barrel designed to shield the bearer's hand from heat, except a solid forearm of a stock that covers only the bottom of the barrel.

I'm not sure what that means except my guess is dealers here won't be selling anymore Mini-14's. If they do it will probably be Ranch Rifles.

I also found this which supports your definition.

https://ccdlaw.com/washington-state-aims-to-restrict-assault-firearms/