The 40cal on its way out?

[Rich]

First off I carry a HK P30S in 9mm and have used /carried the S&W M5906 and M6906 back in the 90`s
But unlike most of you guys I truly think the 40S&W is a Better LE load than the 9mm +P 124gr and standard pressure 147

I keep reading on forums why the 40S&W is fading away!

Here are some of the things I hear others say.



9mm = less wear ? Okay a lot of loads on the Docs list are +p rated and that cause extra wear and some pistol like my P30S aren't even rated for +P use(although I use +P loads under 1200 fps)
The 40S&W doesn't need to be driven at a higher pressure. Therefore no extra wear or tear.

40S&W pistol are built to 9mm specs therefore wear out faster ?? What current LE service pistol is built to 9mm specs in 40S&W? Even my retired 1998 P229 doesn't have this so called problem.

9mm = less recoil faster follow up. The 40 cal can be loaded to any pressure or velocity the agency may want! JHP Bullets from 135gr to 200gr.
What does Chuck say about recoil? Sorry Chuck I know you like 9mm over the 40S&W

9mm cost less. When I buy ammo from my dealer (50rd LE ammo) I don't see much if any difference and sometimes even see the 40S&W for less.
I also see 40S&W LE loads instock most off the time unlike 9mm LE loads like 124+P and 147 HST . BTW he seems to always have 180gr HST instock


I'm going to have to shoot a M&P40 and G22 to see what up with the excessive recoil.


BTW my hands ache all the time now and I have broken my hand and every finger once or twice now. So I'm some what a recoil sensitive and I'm only 50yrs old.
But still enjoy shooting my retired P229 in 40S&W

[gtmtnbiker98]

I find it hard to believe that "it's on the way out." However, there is a trend in LE that points back to the 9mm. With that said, there will be several agencies that will stick with the .40 and with it's wide adoption, it isn't going anywhere. Everybody has their favorite caliber and around here, it's the 9mm - hands down. But that doesn't mean anything in regards to LE usage and the future of the fortay.

[ST911]

On it's way out? No.
Declining demand? Yes.

[JBP55]

On it's way out? No.
Declining demand? Yes.


This.

[Jeep]

This.


Exactly. The .40 is here to stay, but in the future it is going to less dominating in the police market, and perhaps quite a bit less in the civilian market.

However, the P229 was built for the .40 and in my opinion handles it very well.

I also think a side-by-side comparison of the M&P 40 and the G22 is a very good idea. To date when I have done that (with a Gen 4 G22) I have found no one who didn't notice less recoil in the M&P. I'm sure some will find that not to be the case, but for most people, I think, the M&P is a softer-shooting gun (the same holds true for 9 as well, I believe).

In the end, I think the .40 is probably marginally more effective than the 9, but the 9 is the somewhat "better" round because it is easier to shoot, less likely to cause inexperienced shooters to flinch, and allows faster follow up shots. However, a .40 P229 is an excellent gun and if locally ammo is cheaper for it, I'd keep shooting that.

[ssb]

In my extremely limited experience as a range safety guy (two full days), I will say that I've heard some variation of:

- "They all fall to hardball"
- "I won't carry anything that doesn't start with a 4"
- "I carry a .40/.45 because of the stopping power"
- "9mm is fine for practice, but I don't want to have to shoot them a dozen times"
- "9mm will just piss them off. .40/.45 will put them in the dirt"

at least twenty times.

I wouldn't underestimate the pervasive terminal ballistics ignorance of the general public. 9mm may be returning to LE use (FBI and others who will follow), but many members of the general public still consider the .10" difference between 9mm and .45 holes to be something akin to the Grand Canyon.

[DocGKR]

.40 is a good cartridge and does some things very well. But physics is a harsh mistress, as is materials science. In otherwise equivalent pistols, .40 S&W generally wears the guns out faster than 9 mm. Many large users of both calibers report up to four times the service life of the 9 mm variants compared to the .40 pistols. LE service pistols that started out as 9 mm designs, like the G22, G23, or Beretta 96, tend to not fare well when chambered in .40 S&W. If you believe agencies can order quality .40 S&W defensive loads at whatever velocity they desire, see if you can find some 180 gr HST with an ave MV of 850 fps from a 4" barrel. FWIW, I just got in some new practice ammo today; I can assure you that 9 mm is indeed less expensive than .40...

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b580/DocGKR2/AE9FP%20delivery_zps2ddefkz7.jpg

[Rich]

What is the pressure rating on these loads ? ranger 127gr T +P+ , Gold Dot 124gr +P and HST 124gr +P

Are the pressure higher or lower or the same as the popular 40S&W 180gr loads.

I have a hard to believing that the LE 40 wear out faster. Now if the 9mm are using only standard pressure 115 and 124 gr /147 I could maybe see it.

Maybe LE 9mm a couple of LE service pistol were built to 9mm specs long ago but that's not the case now. M&P 40 - Gen 3 or 4 G22 - 20year old P229 and P229R -HKUSP P2000 P30


You know I went to look at Mikes offerings and the price does seem higher for 40cal HST 25.99 for the 155gr and 30.99 for my favorite 180gr load

BTW 40CAL 180gr is instock and don't see any 124+P or 147gr HST in stock Not even the 124 standard pressure 124gr

[Rich]

Exactly. The .40 is here to stay, but in the future it is going to less dominating in the police market, and perhaps quite a bit less in the civilian market.

However, the P229 was built for the .40 and in my opinion handles it very well.

I also think a side-by-side comparison of the M&P 40 and the G22 is a very good idea. To date when I have done that (with a Gen 4 G22) I have found no one who didn't notice less recoil in the M&P. I'm sure some will find that not to be the case, but for most people, I think, the M&P is a softer-shooting gun (the same holds true for 9 as well, I believe).

In the end, I think the .40 is probably marginally more effective than the 9, but the 9 is the somewhat "better" round because it is easier to shoot, less likely to cause inexperienced shooters to flinch, and allows faster follow up shots. However, a .40 P229 is an excellent gun and if locally ammo is cheaper for it, I'd keep shooting that.

Fully admit buying a G23 40cal 1998 and not liking it.(recoil) also after shooting just 500rds traded in 96 for my current P229. (I do have love for the M9 series with rail)

I also doubt I would like a P30 in 40cal. but that just guessing


Easier to shoot. Depends on the pistol for me

Depending on the load used . I think my P229 can have less impulse than my P30S 9mm

[SLG]

I have a hard to believing that the LE 40 wear out faster.

The only thing to say is, You're wrong.

[Trooper224]

I started my LE career with a .357 magnum, that was fine. When I went to work for the staties it was a .45acp, fine as well. Eight years ago I transferred to a different division and now carry a .40, once again fine. After tweenty three years in LE work and military service before that, that only thing I've determined about pistol caliber is this: I don't care. With modern ammunition the performance gap is largely closed. The common service calibers have their differences, but it all seems largely academic at this point. The deciding factor is my ability to accurately place the projectile on target, not a few milimeters difference in bore size. If carrying a .40 makes you feel like you've strapped on the hammer of Thor than by all means carry one, it's not a bad choice, but don't fool yourself into thinking it gives you some inherent advantage.

The .40 doesn't need to be driven to higher pressure? The .40 IS a higher pressure round all the way around. Forty caliber pistols will wear out sooner than the comparative nine milimeter. This is not vodoo, it's a fact based on physics not wishful thinking. Your .40 won't spontaneously disassemble on you, but shoot it to destruction next to the comparative 9mm and it will poop the bed sooner every time, garunteed. I suspect you don't believe it simply because you've decided not to.

Debating caliber effectivness with those well versed in ballistic science will not result in an harmonious outcome.

[GJM]

.40 is a good cartridge and does some things very well. But physics is a harsh mistress, as is materials science. In otherwise equivalent pistols, .40 S&W generally wears the guns out faster than 9 mm. [/IMG]

This I understand, although it can be mitigated by replacing guns more frequently, if .40 was desired. What I can not easily replace is ME, and .40, particularly in a service pistol size like the G22, 226, and P30, wears ME out faster. My elbows and hands have a hard enough time holding up to my round count of 9.

[BLR]

First off I carry a HK P30S in 9mm and have used /carried the S&W M5906 and M6906 back in the 90`s
But unlike most of you guys I truly think the 40S&W is a Better LE load than the 9mm +P 124gr and standard pressure 147

I keep reading on forums why the 40S&W is fading away!

Here are some of the things I hear others say.



9mm = less wear ? Okay a lot of loads on the Docs list are +p rated and that cause extra wear and some pistol like my P30S aren't even rated for +P use(although I use +P loads under 1200 fps)
The 40S&W doesn't need to be driven at a higher pressure. Therefore no extra wear or tear.

40S&W pistol are built to 9mm specs therefore wear out faster ?? What current LE service pistol is built to 9mm specs in 40S&W? Even my retired 1998 P229 doesn't have this so called problem.

9mm = less recoil faster follow up. The 40 cal can be loaded to any pressure or velocity the agency may want! JHP Bullets from 135gr to 200gr.
What does Chuck say about recoil? Sorry Chuck I know you like 9mm over the 40S&W

9mm cost less. When I buy ammo from my dealer (50rd LE ammo) I don't see much if any difference and sometimes even see the 40S&W for less.
I also see 40S&W LE loads instock most off the time unlike 9mm LE loads like 124+P and 147 HST . BTW he seems to always have 180gr HST instock


I'm going to have to shoot a M&P40 and G22 to see what up with the excessive recoil.


BTW my hands ache all the time now and I have broken my hand and every finger once or twice now. So I'm some what a recoil sensitive and I'm only 50yrs old.
But still enjoy shooting my retired P229 in 40S&W

So not a lot of reasoning given in response to this, so I'll take a whack at it.
1. Wear. This is the easy one. The reason for accelerated wear is a momentum/energy management issue. "Modern" designs are all essentially striker fired. Including the HKs and SIGs and Berettas. And there in lies the problem. Striker fired pistol operation are only 2 legs of a 3 legged stool. You can design a pistol as a 9mm, but getting it to work with a 357 or 40 really doesn't work unless you redesign the slide. You'll always have artificially high slide velocities. And consequently, durability problems. The common, and halfassed, solution is to stuff a heavier recoil spring in the gun. This is largely done because people really don't understand basic kinematics. This results is a slightly slower rearward slide velocity, but a much accelerated forward velocity. Which is why the more recent designs start with the 40, then modify to make 9mms. Which results in excessive closing velocity. Now, the much maligned 1911 and 1935 utilize the hammer correctly, and cocking provides upward of 75% of the slide velocity governing and slide closing force. Simple levers utilized correctly. Of course, it makes the slide harder to rack, but......

2. I tend to agree with the 40 being more effective. I recently sat through a meeting where the presenter discussed a ramped performance threshold of effectiveness. I don't think anyone will argue that the 25ACP isn't as effective as a 45ACP which isn't as effective as a 308. But no one, not even the SMEs here, can articulate a reasoned "why" this is. The theory I'm currently buying into is this: effectiveness (assuming identical shot placement, identical target, etc) is determined by a mix of rate of energy transfer, absolute energy transfer, and total volume of tissue disruption. Each individual responds differently, and the amount and type of external stimuli affect the outcome. Which is why the 9mm fans say "he was shot with a 45 and didn't die right there, so 9mm is just as effective." Well, sort of. That is a massive reductionist argument, and it demonstrates a desire to engineer an argument. If it's all shot placement, 38SPL 125LRN would be as effective as a 300WM to the chest. And it just isn't. The key is getting smarter in this area, and determining where the threshold is. And I'm sorry, "Because Favorite Special Operations Guys" isn't a logical, well reasoned justification. Otherwise, LL would be preaching the virtue of the M45.
3. Recoil is subjective. I can shoot 170PF all day long out of a steel frame 45. Doing so out of a LW Commander is more less fun. Another fun little part about shooting style and stance. Locking your wrist and elbows, then shooting 1000 rounds of hot ammo out of a light gun, and you'll be whimpering about your joints in fast order. Yes, it might be slightly better in some respects for when you are shooting back at a bad guy over the hood of your cruiser, but if you are going to bang out 1000 rounds per day for a week solid in pie slicing school, you'll pay for it.

Like GKR said, physicas and materials are hard, cruel mistresses. And they govern everyone and everything. Even if you are a ninja.

[BWT]

Ballistically in a shot to shot comparison only. The tip of the hat does go to .40, slightly.

However, there's more to the equation because we're not looking to just shot to shot performance.

Most professional shooters realize a single shot from a handgun cartridge will usually not stop a threat on first shot (considering non-CNS shots).

Shooting events historically have led large organization analysts to say "We're not seeing anything appreciable between these two with their current JHP loadings".

So, now that that's established.

9mm recoils less (which leads to faster follow up shots; which may be necessary), wears less on the gun, is cheaper to load and shoot, gives you more capacity, and is available in more platforms. 9mm yields the benefits of a caliber that's been around since 1902, IIRC and is therefore more widely available.

I realized this and went from an 8 round 1911 .45 ACP magazine to a 17 round 9mm Glock magazine.

If we were forced to conceal carry Thompson contenders in pistol calibers; .40 S&W would be better than 9mm.

However, since we're not; 9mm is more widely used.

.40 S&W was adopted by the FBI because 10mm recoiled too harshly. That was adopted what, 20-30 years ago? In that time modern JHP has closed the gap on performance.

If it was an FMJ world; this might be a different story.

If you like .40, great. But that's my perspective on it.

[gtmtnbiker98]

I love caliber debates.

[Jeep]

[QUOTE=DocGKR;303196 FWIW, I just got in some new practice ammo today; I can assure you that 9 mm is indeed less expensive than .40...

[/QUOTE]

OK, I am now officially jealous. Is that 18,000 rounds are something? Actually, I think I am officially insanely jealous.

[RJ]

I love caliber debates.

Me too. :)

Without meaning to add any additional derp, could this Dental Student respectfully ask the SMEs here a question about SAAMI "Maximum" pressure of 9mm vs 40 S&W, and how it relates (or does it?) to the perceived / actual snappier recoil / increased wear and tear on ones joints?

"Other" fora discussions on this issue sometime cite SAAMI max pressure as an indicator of recoil. I've never understood this. For example, Wiki lists the Maximum Pressure of a 40 S&W round as 35,000 psi, with the same value listed for the 9mm Parabellum is 35,001.

If these are indeed representative Max Pressures in PSI, then why does the 40 have the (deserved, apparently) reputation for higher felt recoil / decreased firearm service life?

Does the SAAMI max pressure not have to do with the recoil impulse?

I'll just be here cleaning my pistol.

Thank you sirs.

Rich in Tampa

[RJ]

OK, I am now officially jealous. Is that 18,000 rounds are something? Actually, I think I am officially insanely jealous.


I confess, I did a quick estimate this morning and 18,000 was the number I came up with also.

Dayum. :)

[uechibear]

Isn't it 36,000?

[littlejerry]

Isn't it 36,000?

Both have the same saami pressure rating of 35ksi( or is it 36?). But that is only a piece of the puzzle. Remember that pressure is force over area. Case diameter is larger on a .40, so for a given pressure total force on breach face is higher.

Really though you are concerned with force over time.

[uechibear]

I confess, I did a quick estimate this morning and 18,000 was the number I came up with also.

Dayum. :)


Both have the same saami pressure rating of 35ksi( or is it 36?). But that is only a piece of the puzzle. Remember that pressure is force over area. Case diameter is larger on a .40, so for a given pressure total force on breach face is higher.

Really though you are concerned with force over time.

Sorry, I guess I should have been more specific! I meant 36,000 rounds in DocGKR's photo (post #7). :cool:

[Sportster883]

It needs to be on the way in before it can go out. Other than gaston giving them away in the 90s to any police department that wanted them, it's never been a big mover other than to people who read online it's a 45 in a 9mm package and believe it. Or believed the magazine authors who were paid to push it pre Internet days.

All my shooting buddies, zero own a 40. Family to include my wife's side, zero own a 40. Even if every person on all forum owned it exclusively and only shot it, that would still only represent a fraction of all gun owners in the country. It is nowhere near as popular as the web would make it seem to a new person researching online. All the local gun stores move more 38 special and 410 than they do 40.

I tried it for IPSC, pins and plates in the 90s. That lasted about two weeks after splits were extended greatly, when .3 seconds means first loser or first place, it's a big deal. I tried it on little critters and deer. Did no better than 9mm. So I sold it after it sat for two years unused. I only see hype and a huge following online.

[JBP55]

That is 36,000 rounds in the Doctor's picture.

[Jeep]

That is 36,000 rounds in the Doctor's picture.

You are correct. I had figured that those had to be 500 round cases, but as I looked closer it was pretty clear that they had 100 rounds each. I am now officially beyond insanely jealous. THAT is the way to shoot.

[breakingtime91]

The only thing to say is, You're wrong.

agreed.

[LockedBreech]

It needs to be on the way in before it can go out. Other than gaston giving them away in the 90s to any police department that wanted them, it's never been a big mover other than to people who read online it's a 45 in a 9mm package and believe it. Or believed the magazine authors who were paid to push it pre Internet days.

All my shooting buddies, zero own a 40. Family to include my wife's side, zero own a 40. Even if every person on all forum owned it exclusively and only shot it, that would still only represent a fraction of all gun owners in the country. It is nowhere near as popular as the web would make it seem to a new person researching online. All the local gun stores move more 38 special and 410 than they do 40.

I tried it for IPSC, pins and plates in the 90s. That lasted about two weeks after splits were extended greatly, when .3 seconds means first loser or first place, it's a big deal. I tried it on little critters and deer. Did no better than 9mm. So I sold it after it sat for two years unused. I only see hype and a huge following online.

I wonder if it's a regional thing. I live in a very rural state and I know more .40 users than 9mm easily. Close to a tie, maybe, but I'd give the edge to .40 in my local numbers/shooting community. I do shoot frequently with LEO though, which may be skewing me.

As to the main topic of the thread, my primary is the 9mm but I quite like the .40 as well. I'm big. I don't feel a big difference. It is what it is.

[Chuck Haggard]

Until I have more time;

At one point I owned seven different Glock .40s, two HKs, and a Beretta. I liked the .40, a lot, and carried it daily, by choice.

I learn the hard way.

[Sportster883]

I wonder if it's a regional thing. I live in a very rural state and I know more .40 users than 9mm easily. Close to a tie, maybe, but I'd give the edge to .40 in my local numbers/shooting community. I do shoot frequently with LEO though, which may be skewing me.

As to the main topic of the thread, my primary is the 9mm but I quite like the .40 as well. I'm big. I don't feel a big difference. It is what it is.

You most likely are right. I am also in a rural area, and I can think of one family member who lives in "town". I don't feel a difference either, but when you shoot your carry gun/defense pistol on pins or plates and IPSC for fun you will experience longer splits, no way around it. That's when I noticed the difference. Also noticed on game and varmints, there is no noticable difference between 9, 40 or 45 with on game performance given similar constructed projectiles with near same sectional densities. The normal heavy weights in the big three are for all purposes the same sectional density. A near miss and be off target on game by 2" and make a bad hit, then diameter won't matter much, but getting back on target as fast as possible will. It took me a long time to realize that and my experience in IPSC and clearing pin tables showed me 40 takes longer to get back on target. I don't dislike it, I just don't see a use for one. I have noticed there are some 200 grain loads for 40 these days. Hands down it will penetrate deeper than any 9 or 45 because of the superior sectional density. In that one instance I could justify the split difference, but it would be a narrow purpose use.

[BWT]

Until I have more time;

At one point I owned seven different Glock .40s, two HKs, and a Beretta. I liked the .40, a lot, and carried it daily, by choice.

I learn the hard way.

You're not the only one.

My Concealed Carry Instructor (he actually was fairly qualified, not as much as others but above average for certain) in front a class while cleaning a student's 1911 said, "1911's are great, beautiful guns but a Glock 19 would be ideal". He emphasized repeatedly how a Glock 19 and a Comp-Tac Holster would be ideal (because of the leather backing). I even shot that Glock 19 with a 3.5 lb connector, extended magazine release, and extended slide release.

So needless to say I bought a Stainless Steel DW CBOB, carried that for a year before being tired of it small of the back. Switched to a Glock 17 Gen 4 and AIWB to take advantage of all of the inherit benefits of a Glock 17. I had two ingenuinal hernias repaired and AIWB was no longer comfortable, and realized the Glock 17 was just too big for my usages. I switched to a Glock 19 Gen 4 with an extended slide release and magazine release, minus connector, and Glock 17 Trigger assembly; I'm happy with it for carrying in a holster. I carry in a JM Custom IWB3 with a Full Sweat Guard and I find myself wanting to either A) reduce the sweat guard size to a mid-guard or B) get some kind of leather material on the back of the kydex because it creates a "hot spot" as we'll call it on my back.

So here I am 5 years later and thousands of dollars later back where I started. :cool:

God Bless,

Brandon.

[Kyle Reese]

So here I am 5 years later and thousands of dollars later back where I started. :cool:.

Welcome to the club. [emoji3]


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[BehindBlueI's]

I keep hearing the trend in LE is going to the 9mm. I haven't seen that at all in my neck of the woods. Almost everyone is carrying a .40, and the ones who aren't are carrying a .45. The Gen 2s lasted long enough that the night sights were about dead before we went to 3s to get the rail since weapon lights was the hot new thing. 9mm may last longer, but honestly how many are wearing out the .40 for that to matter?

I'm not smart enough in the realm of ballistics to say what's the best and what's not, but I figure each has an advantage and a disadvantage in any given situation. All I can say is our guys test stuff all the time, and the 165 gr HST .40 has been what we've stuck with for many years now. It's performed very well in police action shootings, has penetrated car doors and glass effectively, and we've had no complaints with it. There is zero push to go to 9mm on my department.

[BWT]

I keep hearing the trend in LE is going to the 9mm. I haven't seen that at all in my neck of the woods. Almost everyone is carrying a .40, and the ones who aren't are carrying a .45. The Gen 2s lasted long enough that the night sights were about dead before we went to 3s to get the rail since weapon lights was the hot new thing. 9mm may last longer, but honestly how many are wearing out the .40 for that to matter?

I'm not smart enough in the realm of ballistics to say what's the best and what's not, but I figure each has an advantage and a disadvantage in any given situation. All I can say is our guys test stuff all the time, and the 165 gr HST .40 has been what we've stuck with for many years now. It's performed very well in police action shootings, has penetrated car doors and glass effectively, and we've had no complaints with it. There is zero push to go to 9mm on my department.

I think the Glock 22 Gen 3 issues for a number of departments, and the FBI going to 9mm (IIRC). Is what the trend is. If Glock's statistic of 65% of LE using them can be trusted; I'd bet half or at least near that were using .40 S&W Glocks. That could lead to large changes.

Just my .02$

[ST911]

There is zero push to go to 9mm on my department.

It's coming. When, not if.

[Sportster883]

Too many people are focusing on the LEO community. Which is a very small minority group of pistol users. it might be the cool or trendy thing to talk about on the web, but the numbers are just too small to make any significant difference in total number of pistols and their caliber. Where I am the largest consumer for the 40 is the police, a very small minority group for pistol users. If all you do is shoot with police buddies and that's all they shoot because that's what they use or can get the ammo cheap does not accurately translate to actual real world statistics. It's the same thing as police cruisers. They all drive a select few models of cars and SUVs. Just because 65% of them is a crown Vic does not mean 65% of non sworn civilians also drive a crown Vic.

[BWT]

Too many people are focusing on the LEO community. Which is a very small minority group of pistol users. it might be the cool or trendy thing to talk about on the web, but the numbers are just too small to make any significant difference in total number of pistols and their caliber. Where I am the largest consumer for the 40 is the police, a very small minority group for pistol users. If all you do is shoot with police buddies and that's all they shoot because that's what they use or can get the ammo cheap does not accurately translate to actual real world statistics. It's the same thing as police cruisers. They all drive a select few models of cars and SUVs. Just because 65% of them is a crown Vic does not mean 65% of non sworn civilians also drive a crown Vic.

While there is some truth in your logic; I honestly don't have any statistics to validate or invalidate your stance. Who do the ammunition manufacturers cater to?

I dunno about you but just about every major JHP I use or high quality ammo is designed for either the military or police. Some examples being HST and Mk 262.

How many 10mm defensive loadings or JHP loads do you see out there?

[Sportster883]

While there is some truth in your logic; I honestly don't have any statistics to validate or invalidate your stance. Who do the ammunition manufacturers cater to?

I dunno about you but just about every major JHP I use or high quality ammo is designed for either the military or police. Some examples being HST and Mk 262.

How many 10mm defensive loadings or JHP loads do you see out there?

We could say 100% of all police use the 40. The numbers in the margin of error for non sworn civilian gun owners alone is greater than the number of actual police. So let's double the number of police, still don't stand a chance compared to regular people gun owner numbers. You could triple that doubled number and it's still well below 10% of the low number of non sworn gun owners. The use of police numbers is not a fair shake for the caliber. It also gives a good indication it is not so popular if such a small minority group of shooters is used to indicate a calibers popularity.

Ammo is catered to money. Put HST in a box with flowers on it and label it civilian ammo. They won't sell much, even if it's cheaper than the same thing in the box with spiffy names on it like swat and LEO only.

10mm, can't help you out there, I don't shoot it. Don't ask me about 40 either, haven't looked for a box of 40 ammo in two decades. I do know it sells pretty slow at every gun store I go to though.

HST, my choice too, but not because of some gello test or someone got paid to write an article about it. We get crop damage block permits for deer. I use what works best on them, and I have tried just about everything out there. HST does the best. Mk262, another good choice. My only use of that ammo was before I retired from being an 11B when I was a SDM for a while. It made the AR platform a solid 600M rig on a point target in the right hands. Haven't used it since because I don't shoot at woodchucks past 300 anyway, I like stalking closer these days. If I may say so good sir, you have a fine choice in ammo....

[BWT]

We could say 100% of all police use the 40. The numbers in the margin of error for non sworn civilian gun owners alone is greater than the number of actual police. So let's double the number of police, still don't stand a chance compared to regular people gun owner numbers. You could triple that doubled number and it's still well below 10% of the low number of non sworn gun owners. The use of police numbers is not a fair shake for the caliber. It also gives a good indication it is not so popular if such a small minority group of shooters is used to indicate a calibers popularity.

Ammo is catered to money. Put HST in a box with flowers on it and label it civilian ammo. They won't sell much, even if it's cheaper than the same thing in the box with spiffy names on it like swat and LEO only.

10mm, can't help you out there, I don't shoot it. Don't ask me about 40 either, haven't looked for a box of 40 ammo in two decades. I do know it sells pretty slow at every gun store I go to though.

HST, my choice too, but not because of some gello test or someone got paid to write an article about it. We get crop damage block permits for deer. I use what works best on them, and I have tried just about everything out there. HST does the best. Mk262, another good choice. My only use of that ammo was before I retired from being an 11B when I was a SDM for a while. It made the AR platform a solid 600M rig on a point target in the right hands. Haven't used it since because I don't shoot at woodchucks past 300 anyway, I like stalking closer these days. If I may say so good sir, you have a fine choice in ammo....

Thank you, and so do you.

Thanks for your service to our country.

What I was trying to illustrate is, unfortunately, most modern weapons and ammo are designed with the military and law enforcement in mind.

I do agree with you about not using everything that the military or LE uses. For instance, I would not use barrier blind ammo; because I don't care about auto body and glass penetration. I'm more concerned about over penetration in a home environment. So the new Black Hills TMK 77 gr 5.56mm would be a great option.

But most new 5.56mm projectiles are bonded or a mono-metal design (such as the barnes tsx, Speer loadings, etc) for barrier penetration. For every TMK-ish design there are 4 or 5 military aimed designs. I think if/when Law Enforcement migrates away from the .40 S&W; it will be in a situation that 10mm was. 10mm was cutting edge at one point, but... hardly any military/LE entities (besides the FBI with their 10mm MP5 (or was it UMP)) use it. So, no one designs JHP for it because it's only in use among civilians.

The Government will fund design projects that civilian sales simply won't. So, I think there is a somewhat vested interest in maintaining whatever is in use by the military to be able to take some of the "fruits" so to speak of the industry's catering to that market. I hate to say it but the modern AR has designs tweaks that cost the tax payers millions of dollars to test/vet; we benefit from that.

That is also why any talk of "sporting purposes" in regards to the 2A is ridiculous. But, that's another topic for another day.

Thanks again for your service.

God Bless,

Brandon

[Jeep]

I keep hearing the trend in LE is going to the 9mm. I haven't seen that at all in my neck of the woods. Almost everyone is carrying a .40, and the ones who aren't are carrying a .45. The Gen 2s lasted long enough that the night sights were about dead before we went to 3s to get the rail since weapon lights was the hot new thing. 9mm may last longer, but honestly how many are wearing out the .40 for that to matter?

I'm not smart enough in the realm of ballistics to say what's the best and what's not, but I figure each has an advantage and a disadvantage in any given situation. All I can say is our guys test stuff all the time, and the 165 gr HST .40 has been what we've stuck with for many years now. It's performed very well in police action shootings, has penetrated car doors and glass effectively, and we've had no complaints with it. There is zero push to go to 9mm on my department.

Behind: The .40 and the 165 gr HST are fine choices--but I have seen a lot of cops, including federal LEO's, who have a hard time handling the .40, usually in my opinion because of training issues. Specifically, at a range I shoot at (that has a lot of cops from the many local agencies) I keep seeing cops flinch with their .40's. I saw a federal LEO flinch so bad (her eyes were routinely closed when she pulled the trigger) that she kept putting bullets into the dirt.

It sounds like that most in your department can shoot so it isn't a problem. But for cops who get something like 50 rounds of training ammo a year, or who have a bad flinch (which is more than a few around here), I'd recommend the 9mm in a heartbeat. Now, I know that you don't fix training issues with hardware, but you can mitigate them some, particularly if there seems to be no burning desire to actually fix the training issues.

So while I wouldn't disagree for a moment with a department that wanted .40's and made sure to train its officers to handle it, I think that (1) 9mm is overall just as good for people who can shoot; and (2) is a lot easier to train those who can't.

[Sportster883]

Thank you, and so do you.

Thanks for your service to our country.

What I was trying to illustrate is, unfortunately, most modern weapons and ammo are designed with the military and law enforcement in mind.

I do agree with you about not using everything that the military or LE uses. For instance, I would not use barrier blind ammo; because I don't care about auto body and glass penetration. I'm more concerned about over penetration in a home environment. So the new Black Hills TMK 77 gr 5.56mm would be a great option.

But most new 5.56mm projectiles are bonded or a mono-metal design (such as the barnes tsx, Speer loadings, etc) for barrier penetration. For every TMK-ish design there are 4 or 5 military aimed designs. I think if/when Law Enforcement migrates away from the .40 S&W; it will be in a situation that 10mm was. 10mm was cutting edge at one point, but... hardly any military/LE entities (besides the FBI with their 10mm MP5 (or was it UMP)) use it. So, no one designs JHP for it because it's only in use among civilians.

The Government will fund design projects that civilian sales simply won't. So, I think there is a somewhat vested interest in maintaining whatever is in use by the military to be able to take some of the "fruits" so to speak of the industry's catering to that market. I hate to say it but the modern AR has designs tweaks that cost the tax payers millions of dollars to test/vet; we benefit from that.

That is also why any talk of "sporting purposes" in regards to the 2A is ridiculous. But, that's another topic for another day.

Thanks again for your service.

God Bless,

Brandon

Absolutely. I agree 100%. You are correct in all them points. Police ammo comes in plain white boxes anyway lol, and I'd buy flower boxed HST.

My main point is using police numbers to try and give credit to something does not do much for the product. The 40 has earned so much more on its own in the free market. Police numbers are a drop in an already full bucket.

An example would be my favorite pistol caliber. I prefer the 45GAP. I love the G17 size frame, but hate even the SF (Still Fat) large frame glocks. I am also a 45 fan. I'm such a fan of 45 and Glock I bought a G37 in 2008. I shoot it so much that when I stopped into Glock Inc in Smyrna the armorer replaced every part except the slide, barrel and frame. The trigger housing was actually cracked, yet I never knew it. Fired and functioned just fine. I got back a gun that felt new until I broke it in again. I love that service they have, all for free. Anyway, 10% of all state highway and state police issue the 45GAP. Are 10% of all 45s out there a GAP? Heck no! I love it though and in 09 when there was no ACP ammo I enjoyed regular price GAP ammo. Of which ammo has fallen $3.00-$5.00 a box and is the same price as ACP these days than it was on 08.

I did do a survey of all my shooting buddies though. 31 own and shoot ACP, two others bought a GAP Glock after shooting mine, but mostly use ACP. Works out to just under 10% lol.

Anyways, it's been a pleasure having a conversation with you. Just today I shot some vermin raccoons at grandmas farm, with HST from the G37, then bagged two cotton tails (with ball ammo). One was rather large. I put my guns to work and the second one was the only one I hit on the run. Nothing beats small moving target practice that you can eat with your carry gun.

[Rich]

I started my LE career with a .357 magnum, that was fine. When I went to work for the staties it was a .45acp, fine as well. Eight years ago I transferred to a different division and now carry a .40, once again fine. After tweenty three years in LE work and military service before that, that only thing I've determined about pistol caliber is this: I don't care. With modern ammunition the performance gap is largely closed. The common service calibers have their differences, but it all seems largely academic at this point. The deciding factor is my ability to accurately place the projectile on target, not a few milimeters difference in bore size. If carrying a .40 makes you feel like you've strapped on the hammer of Thor than by all means carry one, it's not a bad choice, but don't fool yourself into thinking it gives you some inherent advantage.

The .40 doesn't need to be driven to higher pressure? The .40 IS a higher pressure round all the way around. Forty caliber pistols will wear out sooner than the comparative nine milimeter. This is not vodoo, it's a fact based on physics not wishful thinking. Your .40 won't spontaneously disassemble on you, but shoot it to destruction next to the comparative 9mm and it will poop the bed sooner every time, garunteed.


(I suspect you don't believe it simply because you've decided not to.)


I believe it if the 9mm pistol is fed standard pressure loads


A 9mm fed a steady diet of Ranger T 127gr + P + have a longer service life than a 40 cal service pistol not so much!
we have some things in common
I to started with 357/38 then went on to Colt 1911`s and on into 9mm. In 1998I wanted to go 40S&W and in 2014 made the switch back to 9mm / P30S V3

[Rich]

9mm recoils less (which leads to faster follow up shots; which may be necessary), wears less on the gun, is cheaper to load and shoot, gives you more capacity, and is available in more platforms. 9mm yields the benefits of a caliber that's been around since 1902, IIRC and is therefore more widely available.



Do you think the Win Ranger 127gr +P+ , 124gr +P Gold Dot . 124gr +P HST all have less recoil than any 40S&W load?

Don't get me wrong .

I have nothing against the 9mm for LE use at all. I even switch to a 9mm in 2014 for les recoil (P30S V3 9mm). all though I found out later my P229 40cal can have less recoil depending on loads used.

I just think when it comes to feeding a 9mmm service pistol +P and +P+ loads thing equal out some. as far as recoil and wear goes.

[BehindBlueI's]

Behind: The .40 and the 165 gr HST are fine choices--but I have seen a lot of cops, including federal LEO's, who have a hard time handling the .40, usually in my opinion because of training issues.

Likely so. There are things I can complain about with my department, but firearms training isn't one of them. They even send a rep to every police action, get autopsy results, etc to see what worked and what didn't. Many of our FoF scenarios are taken from actual PAS events the year before.


It's coming. When, not if.

I doubt it, at least no time soon. Our Troopers went to 9mm for a bit then went to .45. I just haven't seen the push around here. We got Gen 4s maybe 2-3 years ago, so I'm figuring it'll be 7-8 years before anything is even considered to change to. Whatever they go to then will probably be what I retire with, so they'll have one bite at the apple to issue me a 9mm.

[Rich]

I sent Emails asking handgun manufactures a question about service life

A 9mm service pistol feed a steady diet of Win Ranger T 127gr+P+ VS 40cal service pistol

I wonder how much longer service life the 9mm pistol will have when compared to the 40cal

[BJJ]

I sent Emails asking handgun manufactures a question about service life

A 9mm service pistol feed a steady diet of Win Ranger T 127gr+P+ VS 40cal service pistol

I wonder how much longer service life the 9mm pistol will have when compared to the 40cal

I find Winchester 9mm +p+ shot out of a Glock 19 to have significantly more felt recoil than 165 grain .40 gold dots fired from a Glock 22.

[DocGKR]

Why would any sane agency issue 127 +P+ given the fantastic lower pressure options currently available?

[BJJ]

Why would any sane agency issue 127 +P+ given the fantastic lower pressure options currently available?

My understanding is that Winchester 9mm +p+ is always available while Speer Gold Dot +p is sometimes available. I was quite pleased when I qualified with a Glock 19 for off duty and they handed me Speer and not Winchester. Coming from years of .40, Speer 9mm feels easy to shoot.

[SLG]

Rich,

Your ideas are simply not supported by reality. How many more times does someone need to point this out? We break .40 Glocks on a regular basis at under 10,000 rds. Never seen any other caliber do that, except 10mm. Edited: I don't think for a second that most gun companies have any kind of an accurate clue about how long their guns will hold up. If they do, I don't think they'll give you an accurate number. I've heard all sorts of speculation from them. A few know better than the rest, due to Mil/LE testing, but that involves a specific protocol, that most users will not follow.

BWT and 883,

I agree with much of what you guys have said, but I'll cherry pick a couple of areas. Though LE is a small % of the gun owning public, LE Agencies buy way more ammo than the rest of the public combined. That is what drives the .40, both its popularity, and its possible decline. Military use of the .40 also boosts sales, and by quite a bit. As for the .45GAP, the only reason 10% of LE agencies issue it (your numbers, not mine) is because Glock gave them away for nothing. Usually took a loss to do so. No one has adopted it of their own volition, afaik. So I'm not sure what it has to do with this discussion (seriously, not being sarcastic).

[JBP55]

[QUOTE=Rich;304111]I sent Emails asking handgun manufactures a question about service life

A 9mm service pistol feed a steady diet of Win Ranger T 127gr+P+ VS 40cal service pistol

I wonder how much longer service life the 9mm pistol will have when compared to the 40cal[/QUOTE}

Compare the 127+P+ to 155, 124+P to 165 and 147 to 180 in the same size/type pistol and get back with us. I think it is common knowledge that 9mm pistols outlast .40 pistols of the same type/size.

[Sportster883]

Rich,

Your ideas are simply not supported by reality. How many more times does someone need to point this out? We break .40 Glocks on a regular basis at under 10,000 rds. Never seen any other caliber do that, except 10mm. Edited: I don't think for a second that most gun companies have any kind of an accurate clue about how long their guns will hold up. If they do, I don't think they'll give you an accurate number. I've heard all sorts of speculation from them. A few know better than the rest, due to Mil/LE testing, but that involves a specific protocol, that most users will not follow.

BWT and 883,

I agree with much of what you guys have said, but I'll cherry pick a couple of areas. Though LE is a small % of the gun owning public, LE Agencies buy way more ammo than the rest of the public combined. That is what drives the .40, both its popularity, and its possible decline. Military use of the .40 also boosts sales, and by quite a bit. As for the .45GAP, the only reason 10% of LE agencies issue it (your numbers, not mine) is because Glock gave them away for nothing. Usually took a loss to do so. No one has adopted it of their own volition, afaik. So I'm not sure what it has to do with this discussion (seriously, not being sarcastic).

The 40 got the same start. Gaston had a pistol on the market while S&W needed a couple years getting a working pistol to market. During that time Gaston was doing one for one trades. Your old gun for my new G22. They just used the same game plan for the GAP. I remember because I was doing a lot of shooting in them days (early 90s), and a family friend of my parents was a cop, and his kids were cops. We shot together all the time. Even their department received one Glock in 40 for every gun they traded to Gaston. It was a great plan so they used it for the GAP. Gaston gave away more 40s than he has GAP pistols. There are several small departments that do adopt it on their own. When I lived in NC our local department adopted it all on their own, even bought the guns. FHP requested a Gen4 G37 and they would adopt it. So Gsston made a Gen4 for them. There are several small departments in MI where I live now that adopted it all on their own. There are many small departments across the country that have bought into the GAP. It don't make the nightly news so you never hear about it.

Almost forgot the ammo numbers. There is no way police buy or shoot more as a whole than non sworn civilians. They would have to shoot a couple hundred rounds for every round I fire in a year. I shoot 3K a year in the G37 and 3K a year from my 9mm. If they bought 1000 rounds per officer it would be a billion rounds. Not just throwing numbers out there, them are actual, and they would have to do it every year. Back when I was doing a lot of shooting I was loading and shooting 900 rounds a week. Shot that much for 7 years straight before I got myself my own family. These days all I can afford is 6,000 rounds a year. Their numbers are so low compared to non police that they would have to shoot hundreds of rounds per one round fired per non sworn just to match totals, let alone excede ammo they buy by a huge margin as you said.

[SLG]

The 40 got the same start. Gaston had a pistol on the market while S&W needed a couple years getting a working pistol to market. During that time Gaston was doing one for one trades. Your old gun for my new G22. They just used the same game plan for the GAP. I remember because I was doing a lot of shooting in them days (early 90s), and a family friend of my parents was a cop, and his kids were cops. We shot together all the time. Even their department received one Glock in 40 for every gun they traded to Gaston. It was a great plan so they used it for the GAP. Gaston gave away more 40s than he has GAP pistols. There are several small departments that do adopt it on their own. When I lived in NC our local department adopted it all on their own, even bought the guns. FHP requested a Gen4 G37 and they would adopt it. So Gsston made a Gen4 for them. There are several small departments in MI where I live now that adopted it all on their own. There are many small departments across the country that have bought into the GAP. It don't make the nightly news so you never hear about it.

Almost forgot the ammo numbers. There is no way police buy or shoot more as a whole than non sworn civilians. They would have to shoot a couple hundred rounds for every round I fire in a year. I shoot 3K a year in the G37 and 3K a year from my 9mm. If they bought 1000 rounds per officer it would be a billion rounds. Not just throwing numbers out there, them are actual, and they would have to do it every year. Back when I was doing a lot of shooting I was loading and shooting 900 rounds a week. Shot that much for 7 years straight before I got myself my own family. These days all I can afford is 6,000 rounds a year. Their numbers are so low compared to non police that they would have to shoot hundreds of rounds per one round fired per non sworn just to match totals, let alone excede ammo they buy by a huge margin as you said.

I was sincerely asking why you mentioned the GAP before, and now I see that you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. Neither the GAP info or your modest personal ammo use has anything to do with this discussion.

[Sportster883]

I was sincerely asking why you mentioned the GAP before, and now I see that you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. Neither the GAP info or your modest personal ammo use has anything to do with this discussion.

Say what?

That's how you read it, not how I said it, I am just posting what happened with the 40 in a historically correct reporting. You made it sound like the 40 was purchased by choice. It was mostly based on economics, pay for the competitin or get a G22 for free. In a time when gangs ruled the streets and had better firepower than old revolvers and worn out old smith alloy frame 9mm pistols. It made sense to take free 40 caliber glocks. Not arguing with anyone. He just used the same game plan with the GAP. Worked for 40 so why not with the GAP. That's why it was mentioned. It is what it is. I don't let emotion get in the way of what things are actually like.

I like that dig at the end. Made me chuckle. Because it only enforces what I said earlier. Police would have to shoot 600 rounds to every one I fire to just equal ammo purchased by non sworn types. Let's say you shoot 3x what I do in a year. Every police officer would have to shoot 1,800 rounds for every one you fire to just equal rounds fired. For your statement they shoot more rounds total you would have to double that to make it significant. So they would have to be shooting 3,600 rounds for every round you fire. Police combined would have to buy and shoot annually 3,600,000,000. Police would spend the entire day shooting instead of patrolling if what you said was true, every single day they were working.

[HCM]

While Glock swapping free 40's for "pre-ban" 9mm's in order to profiteer during the 1994 federal assault weapons ban did help spread the .40 to some state and local agencies, many organizations,including my own and I suspect SLGs, were already going to the 40 based on the performance of the ammunition available at that time. The 9 mm ammunition available at that timehad issues with penetration and performance when going through intermediate barriers such as autobodies and auto glass. Modern 9 mm duty loads such as the Gold Dot and Ranger have leveled the playing field.

Regarding ammunition used by law-enforcement, it runs the gamut. Policing is regional an individual agencies have their own culture, this includes things like attitudes towards training, round counts guns etc. my department/agency is the largest purchaser and user of 40 caliber ammunition in the world. On average, our officers/agents or fire 802,000 rounds per year. But some on special teams or assignments might fire between 10,000 and 20,000 rounds per year. Deputies with the local sheriffs department who's range we share, will normally fire 100 to 150 rounds per year while our local city Police Department will fire 5 times that amount. Other agencies I've worked with in our area fire the state minimum, 50 rounds per year. Regardless, of their training tempo, law-enforcement will usually spend considerably more on ammunition then on firearms themselves. Agency cost for our issued handgunit's about $400 with night sights and four magazines.The average agent referenced above will fire approximately $2000-$2500 worth of ammunition through that $400 gun during its ten year service life. Due to economies of scale, our agency price for 40 caliber is actually lower than our price for 9 mm but this is not the norm. Saving five cents per round may not seem like much, but it adds up when you're buying two or 3 million rounds per year for a medium sized agency.

[HCM]

Regarding the clean law-enforcement would have to fire 3 billion rounds per year to equal civilian consumption, I think you're comparing apples to oranges.The 3 billion rounds would most likely include all ammunition types.

I would be surprised if Private citizens in the US were actually firing 3 billion rounds of handgun ammunition per year

Now, 3 billion rounds of heavy dove loads fired during each Texas dove season I could believe :-)

[Rich]

Rich,

Your ideas are simply not supported by reality. How many more times does someone need to point this out? We break .40 Glocks on a regular basis at under 10,000 rds. Never seen any other caliber do that, except 10mm. Edited: I don't think for a second that most gun companies have any kind of an accurate clue about how long their guns will hold up. If they do, I don't think they'll give you an accurate number. I've heard all sorts of speculation from them. A few know better than the rest, due to Mil/LE testing, but that involves a specific protocol, that most users will not follow.

BWT and 883,

I agree with much of what you guys have said, but I'll cherry pick a couple of areas. Though LE is a small % of the gun owning public, LE Agencies buy way more ammo than the rest of the public combined. That is what drives the .40, both its popularity, and its possible decline. Military use of the .40 also boosts sales, and by quite a bit. As for the .45GAP, the only reason 10% of LE agencies issue it (your numbers, not mine) is because Glock gave them away for nothing. Usually took a loss to do so. No one has adopted it of their own volition, afaik. So I'm not sure what it has to do with this discussion (seriously, not being sarcastic).

Pointing out the Glock in 40cal really doesn't prove anything except glock cant make a proper 40cal pistol . My 17yr old P229 is just fine. I haven't heard any HK issues or M&P 40S&W

[Rich]

[QUOTE=Rich;304111]I sent Emails asking handgun manufactures a question about service life

A 9mm service pistol feed a steady diet of Win Ranger T 127gr+P+ VS 40cal service pistol

I wonder how much longer service life the 9mm pistol will have when compared to the 40cal[/QUOTE}

Compare the 127+P+ to 155, 124+P to 165 and 147 to 180 in the same size/type pistol and get back with us. I think it is common knowledge that 9mm pistols outlast .40 pistols of the same type/size.

Why cant I compare 127gr +P+ to the 180 40S&W load? its on the list

Interesting .
I'm aware ALL you guys think Im wrong! And it wont be the first time.



I sent Sam a Email

P30 9mm fed a steady diet a win ranger +P+ & +P
P30 40S&W fed a steady diet of 180gr

how much longer life will the P30 9mm have



BTW did anyone miss that I agree that 9mm service last longer when feed a steady diet of standard pressure 9mm loads 124gr/147gr. I can see that.


Not so much when 9mm pistols are feed +P and +P+

[Rich]

While Glock swapping free 40's for "pre-ban" 9mm's in order to profiteer during the 1994 federal assault weapons ban did help spread the .40 to some state and local agencies, many organizations,including my own and I suspect SLGs, were already going to the 40 based on the performance of the ammunition available at that time. The 9 mm ammunition available at that timehad issues with penetration and performance when going through intermediate barriers such as autobodies and auto glass. Modern 9 mm duty loads such as the Gold Dot and Ranger have leveled the playing field.

Regarding ammunition used by law-enforcement, it runs the gamut. Policing is regional an individual agencies have their own culture, this includes things like attitudes towards training, round counts guns etc. my department/agency is the largest purchaser and user of 40 caliber ammunition in the world. On average, our officers/agents or fire 802,000 rounds per year. But some on special teams or assignments might fire between 10,000 and 20,000 rounds per year. Deputies with the local sheriffs department who's range we share, will normally fire 100 to 150 rounds per year while our local city Police Department will fire 5 times that amount. Other agencies I've worked with in our area fire the state minimum, 50 rounds per year. Regardless, of their training tempo, law-enforcement will usually spend considerably more on ammunition then on firearms themselves. Agency cost for our issued handgunit's about $400 with night sights and four magazines.The average agent referenced above will fire approximately $2000-$2500 worth of ammunition through that $400 gun during its ten year service life. Due to economies of scale, our agency price for 40 caliber is actually lower than our price for 9 mm but this is not the norm. Saving five cents per round may not seem like much, but it adds up when you're buying two or 3 million rounds per year for a medium sized agency.

Thanks for the reply . Sometimes I do find the 40S&W LE loads cheaper. I also find it instock more often. 180 HST

I swear every single time I have the cash and try to order 9mm HST its out of stock. I guess I'm lucky to have 3 boxes of standard pressure HST

[Rich]

Why would any sane agency issue 127 +P+ given the fantastic lower pressure options currently available?

I have no Idea.

Back in 2005 I bought 4boxes when you said it was good to use high pressure loads in short barrel 9mm pistols.

After you revised it. I haven't used any since . BTW Want to buy 2 boxes of 2005 head stamp 127gr +P+ LOL


I prefer low recoil loads since my hands ache.

I would use federal tactical 124gr Bonded standard pressure but every time I come up with the cash it isn't in stock.
I was using a load not on the list Federal 124gr standard pressure HST. but moved to golden saber 124gr +P bonded because of your results and others also its under 1200 fps. And my dislocated fingers have gotten better.

[Chuck Haggard]

Outside of weapon durability issues, which exist in many platforms, ammo cost at the agency level is a very real thing.

When I was running our program I could consistently buy 9mm ammo for 30% less than .40 ammo, and for half the cost of .45s. I would get a budget, and that budget was set. They were not going to double my budget if I decided we needed .45s, we would just shoot half as much. That my troops could get 30% more practice from a lower recoil platform for the same money was indeed a big deal.

In full sized service pistols many people run a .40 rather well, I was one of those people, but many do not. Even very accomplished shooters find dropping to the compact guns to be a point where the .40 "juice ain't worth the squeeze" as a certain CAG guy that Doc and I talk to has put it.

Long term, heavier recoil can be a very real issue, especially for guys who shoot a lot. In 2006 when we had all of our Glock 22 problems, I put almost 10,000 rounds through various G22s in the space of three months, working on documenting issues and testing ammo. In doing so I appear to have permanently fucked myself up.

The disparity in cumulative recoil between a gen 3 G17 or 19 and a gen 3 G22 (trying to be apples to apples here) is that I can run through a 1000-1500 round training class over a weekend and be GTG with the 9mms, if I run a 50 round qual course with the .40s I am icing my gun hand and elbow the next day.

I can gunfight with a .40 just fine, and run a full size gun almost as well as I can a 9mm, splitting hairs on the timer, but one has to be able to train with the system as well in order to keep one's skills up.

I'm not the only shooter at my former job with issues running a .40 through high round count training. It has nothing to do with being a wuss. After our transition class many of our meat eater SWAT guys with double body weight bench press (I was one of those guys at the time) had hands that were ate up from running 600 rounds of .40 through their guns in two days. The IBOs had it even worse.

The argument that "I have this one gun and it runs fine" in no way diminishes the fact that at the agency level the .40, consistently, across the board, regardless of platform, cause more weapon durability issues than any other service caliber (except maybe the .357Sig, but similar recoil, etc., and sample size is pretty damn small, so hard to tell...).

What does one get for the increased cost and issues that the .40 brings to the table? Damn little, if anything, in my observation.

One reason the FBI is swapping to the 9 is that the BRU can document that their issues 9mm ammo equals their issued .40 ammo in testing, and exceeds their issued .45acp ammo. That is a fact.



No JHP cuts a hole as wide as the expanded bullet, and RN or SWC ammo certainly does not cut a full caliber wide hole (I have seen up to .45acp FMJRN entrance wounds that had closed up completely, you had to physically move the tissue with a finger to see the wound).

All of the service caliber handgun bullets leave basically the same hole in/through tissue, a doctor looking at a shooting victim or a coroner at a murder victim can not tell the wound path of a .38/9mm from a .40 or a .45. I have numerous docs on record as saying that if they don't find the bullet in the body, then they have no idea which pistol caliber would have caused the wound.

Fact.

If the doctor can't tell the difference then how does the guy that got shot know?
(In the FWIW department; two friends who are a coroner and a trauma surgeon respectively both carry Glock 19s loaded with 124gr +P Gold Dot, due to the capacity, reliability, shootability, and ease of concealment of this platform, along with professional observation of how bullets work in general and how these bullets work specifically. I'll note both of these guys are smarter than me. The coroner thinks that 9mms are more reliable wounders due to expanding more reliably, this due to having higher velocities than the bigger bullets, just his observation across the board on shootings involving JHPs).




Check these out;
Win 230 gr Ranger Talon JHP (RA45T) fired from 1911 at ave vel of 911 f/s; 5 shot ave below:
BG: Pen = 12.3", Ave RD = 0.70", Ave RL = 0.44", Ave RW = 227.2gr
4LD: Pen = 25.1", Ave RD = 0.45", Ave RL = 0.60", Ave RW = 228.8 gr
AG: Pen = 16.1", Ave RD = 0.54", Ave RL = 0.48", Ave RW = 189.6 gr

Fed HST 230 gr JHP (P45HST2) fired from 1911 at ave vel of 879 f/s; 5 shot ave below::
BG: Pen = 12.6", Ave RD = 0.80", Ave RL = 0.44", Ave RW = 231.5 gr
4LD: Pen = 13.4", Ave RD = 0.55", Ave RL = 0.71", Ave RW = 231.2 gr
AG: Pen = 16.3", Ave RD = 0.54", Ave RL = 0.58", Ave RW = 230.6 gr

vs

9mm Fed 147 gr HST JHP; ave vel=997 fps (G19)
BG: pen=14.6", RD=0.61", RL=0.39", RW=147.1gr
4LD: pen=15.6", RD=0.56", RL=0.53", RW=145.5gr

Win 124 gr +P Ranger Talon (RA124TP) fired from G17 at ave vel of 1238 f/s; 5 shot ave below:
BG: Pen = 13.0”, RD = 0.62”, RL= 0.35", RW = 114.7gr
4LD: Pen = 13.0”, RD = 0.59”, RL= 0.40", RW = 116.8gr
AG: Pen = 18.9”, RD = 0.50”, RL= 0.52", RW = 117.5gr

vs

.40 S&W Fed 180 gr HST JHP; ave vel=959 fps (S&W 4006)
BG: pen=14.0", RD=0.70", RL=0.43", RW=181.2gr
4LD: pen=15.0", RD=0.56", RL=0.52", RW=180.7gr

Note in my cherry picked tests, bolding the four layer denim test to illustrate (Which BTW is a very street realistic test in my observation of bullets recovered from real bodies), the 147gr 9mm beats both the .40 and .45 by either more expansion or more penetration, or both.

Even through auto glass, the event where the bigger bullets are supposed to have some sort of huge edge, the 124gr non-bonded +P Ranger-T gives better penetration in the noted testing.

The truth is, on average, they all work about the same, and they all work as well as can be expected with pistols, if the shooter has all their crap in one bag, if not then none of them work.

One of the guys on this board has seen a rather significant number of people shot with 9mm NATO ball, and the bad guys shot "were not unimpressed with the cartridge".
In a recent conversation with Pat Rogers he relayed that in his experience the old NYPD issed .38 service load, a LSWC, "worked pretty good, it you could shoot".

To steal a quote from the late Stephen Camp, "Placement is power". If you are hitting the A/down 0/K5 zone, then bad guys tend to go down pretty fast. If you shoot them around the edges then not so much for the most part. If our job as trainers is to get the troops hitting the A zone under stress, then we need to have a systems approach to our program and make sure the troops can do that.

As a program approach, 9mm makes sense, and the very slight, possible, maybe greater wound ballistics of the .40 in no way overcomes the disadvantages it brings to the table.


In the FWIW department, my old job started issuing the 124gr +P Gold Dot just after that loading became available. We've never had a failure to stop with that loading, on bad guys or large mean dogs, never shot anyone more than four times (all of the those were close range burst shooting where the bad guy couldn't fall fast enough), and have shot numerous bad guys in cars without any barrier issues.

Recoil is very similar to 124gr NATO, most certainly less than any decent .40 load I have fired, and our officers find it easy to control, even shooting one handed, even from G19s and G26s.

Since we had a 100% hit rate going for awhile, at one point nine OISs over the space of 18 months were 100% hits, and have maintained a very high hit rate across the board for a very long time, I have to think we are doing something right.

[Sportster883]

[QUOTE=JBP55;304156]

Why cant I compare 127gr +P+ to the 180 40S&W load? its on the list

Interesting .
I'm aware ALL you guys think Im wrong! And it wont be the first time.



I sent Sam a Email

P30 9mm fed a steady diet a win ranger +P+ & +P
P30 40S&W fed a steady diet of 180gr

how much longer life will the P30 9mm have



BTW did anyone miss that I agree that 9mm service last longer when feed a steady diet of standard pressure 9mm loads 124gr/147gr. I can see that.


Not so much when 9mm pistols are feed +P and +P+

Depends on where the gun was made really. European, we'll just about all other manufacturers around the world build 9mm pistols around CIP spec ammo, not SAAMI spec ammo. European pistols are sent out to CIP proofing before sale, all of them. You won't see any plus signs or capital Ps on the box either. While the ammo is infact SAAMI +P and beyond. If all anyone shoots is SAAMI spec in a European 9mm then they are shooting ammo that is much easier on the gun than it is designed for. It will last much longer shooting lower psi ammo.

Powders these days are capable of creating larger volumes of gas without increasing chamber psi aswell, so we have faster loads with lower psi. My CIP loading manual has a 147 XTP 9x19 load fired from a test smith and Wesson 4" test pistol with a velocity of 1208fps, or 35fps slower than the fastest 357 SIG load in the same weight. The psi is still 1700psi below CIP max allowed psi, but its a real kicker and would be considered +P+ of it was in a SAAMI loading manual or manufactured in the USA.

Note the max CIP PSI in my manual.

http://media3.dropshots.com/photos/104896/20080524/150810.jpg


Even CIP 40 is slightly hotter for max psi at 36,200 psi.

So if you shoot a European 9x19mm pistol don't worry about so called +P ammo, all of it will still be weaker than the pistol was designed to shoot on a regular and steady basis.

[SamAdams]

Interesting conversation, especially Chuck's last post.
I keep pistols in all the service chamberings. Learned my lesson from the Big Ammo Panic of 2012.

That said, I have only one dedicated 40, an all steel Sig P239. Heavy for a compact, but handles the round well because of that. Bought it years ago because I wanted at least one pistol in 40 and had read very good reviews on it. It's a great gun. My other 40 shooters are Glock 20sf 10mm pistols with 40 conversion barrels. They are soft shooters of the 40 and I have no concerns about their durability in that role.

That said, I've got 45acp and 40 covered. My next pistol will be another G19.

[TiroFijo]

If you chrono your ammo, you'll realice that most european 9 mm is loaded VERY similar to SAAMI specs... ;)

To further complicated things CIP,SAAMI and NATO all have different testing methods, so even the piezo pressure are not exactly the same.

[Chuck Haggard]

Jim Cirillo told me in conversation that he thought the .40 was best chambered in a "large frame" pistol, back then there being pistols that were either built to be 9mms or built to be .45s/10mms. Jim was a smart guy and did a lot of gun and ammo experimenting. His G20 with a .40 barrel worked rather well, as have all of the other G20s I've seen with .40 conversion barrels.

A G20 upper with a shortened front-to-back grip shaped to fit G22 mags would be optimal IMHO

[Chuck Haggard]

If you chrono your ammo, you'll realice that most european 9 mm is loaded VERY similar to SAAMI specs... ;)

To further complicated things CIP,SAAMI and NATO all have different testing methods, so even the piezo pressure are not exactly the same.


All of the CONUS 124gr 9mm I have crono'd has been in the 1000-1100fps range. The for-reals 9mm NATO 124gr from England, Canada, South Africa, Switzerland and Germany that I have shot in the past was running well above 1200fps. So was the original US made M882 ammo, until the Beretta started having issues.

[TiroFijo]

NATO sttandard 9 mm "superloads" have largely disappeared, even with euro makers...

Regarding muzzle energy, the NATO standard is exceptionally lax. And the current use for 9 mm is pistols, not pistol caliber SMGs that want to extend their range because there is nothing else available.

According to STANAG 4090, the test barrel is 7.85", the muzzle energy must be between 400 and 600 ft·lbf, and bullet weight between 108 and 128 gr.

This means that a humble SAAMI spec 115 gr 9 mm load that has about 1130 fps in a 4" barrel, but probably does about 1260 fps in a 7.85" barrel (with 405 ft-lbs) meets the NATO specs at the bottom.

The maximun pressure is just the máximum, rarely the ammo is loaded to max pressure, be it from US or any other world maker. I live in south america and we shoot 9 mm ammo from all over the world all the time, and chrono it on matches.

[SamAdams]

Chuck Haggard : " A G20 upper with a shortened front-to-back grip shaped to fit G22 mags would be optimal IMHO "

That's an interesting concept.
The 20sf (short frame) isn't as bulky in the grip as a regular 20. I wear XL gloves and it really doesn't matter all that much to me, though I still prefer the 20sf version. But my brother and a buddy have Med sized hands and still find the 20sf grip too big for best shooting performance.

[Chuck Haggard]

I have a theory that many places downloaded their 9mm ammo due to tearing up their issued BHPs a bit too much.


Anyway, except for things like shooting through flak vests, plus/minus 100fps with ball ammo is certainly in no way a big deal IMHO. Shooting quite a bit of Lawman and Federal AE 124gr ball through various cars, lumber, building materials, etc. I don't notice that running about 1100fps, give or take, makes those bullets give up very much in penetration.

[HCM]

Long term, heavier recoil can be a very real issue, especially for guys who shoot a lot. In 2006 when we had all of our Glock 22 problems, I put almost 10,000 rounds through various G22s in the sapce of three months, working on documenting issues and testing ammo. In doing so I appear to have permanently fucked myself up.

The disparity in cumulative recoil between a gen 3 G17 or 19 and a gen 3 G22 (trying to be apples to apples here) is that I can run through a 1000-1500 round training class over a weekend and be GTG with the 9mms, if I run a 50 round qual course with the .40s I am icing my gun hand and elbow the next day.

I can gunfight with a .40 just fine, and run a full size gun almost as well as I can a 9mm, splitting hairs on the timer, but one has to be able to train with the system as well in order to keep one's skills up.

I'm not the only shooter at my former job with issues running a .40 through high round count training. It has nothing to do with being a wuss. After our transition class many of our meat eater SWAT guys with double body weight bench press (I was one of those guys at the time) had hands that were ate up from running 600 rounds of .40 through their guns in two days. The IBOs had it even

Chuck,

After nearly 2 decades of shooting 155 grain 40s I literally feel your pain. The 180 grain HST we switched to a couple years ago is an improvement but this was a big part of why I went with a Glock 17.

[Sportster883]

If you chrono your ammo, you'll realice that most european 9 mm is loaded VERY similar to SAAMI specs... ;)

To further complicated things CIP,SAAMI and NATO all have different testing methods, so even the piezo pressure are not exactly the same.

The methods are different, but CIP and NATO measure psi at the same location, .25" past the chamber. All three have different max allowed psi. When you take max psi CIP and NATO and put it into a SAAMI test barrel, the psi reading is much higher because they measure right at the chamber. It's not complicated at all when you translate it all to American English and see how the CIP and NATO rounds in a SAAMI test are much higher in psi. I've shot more than a few rounds of Canadian NATO ball from their P35s and it is no slouch, neither is Dutch NATO ball. S&B ammo with the word "POLICE" on the front of the box is loaded to CIP max spec and it is noticeable. My XD9 is 300ish rounds from 40,000 rounds through it and it eats a regular diet of GECO ball and the S&B police along with large quantities of Fiocchi 9AP ball. All are on the higher end of psi. Here is a pic of one of the boxes in a case of 9AP I got. They decided to add a sticker to let customers know that the CIP load is higher in its psi.

http://media702.dropshots.com/photos/104896/20141130/153224.jpg


Point is if you own and shoot a 9mm and the hottest you shoot it +P then you have nothing to worry about. It's not even approaching what the gun was designed to handle on a regular basis.

[Chuck Haggard]

What kind of velocity are you seeing from that loading?

[396]

Chuck Haggard : " A G20 upper with a shortened front-to-back grip shaped to fit G22 mags would be optimal IMHO "

That's an interesting concept.
The 20sf (short frame) isn't as bulky in the grip as a regular 20. I wear XL gloves and it really doesn't matter all that much to me, though I still prefer the 20sf version. But my brother and a buddy have Med sized hands and still find the 20sf grip too big for best shooting performance.

Interesting indeed. However, I'd rather have a G21 that could shoot .40S&W. None of the usual suspects offers this type of conversion barrel. Can someone explain to me what the difference is between the G21 and G20 frames that prevents this?

It's my understanding, though I could be wrong, that a G20 can be converted to shoot .40, and a G21 can be converted to shoot 10mm, so why not .40 in a G21? What am I missing?

[Sportster883]

What kind of velocity are you seeing from that loading?

I do not have a chrono. I did give some to a buddy to test for me and he shot them from a G17. High was in the 1330s and low was in the 1240s for 20 or 25 rounds that I gave him. Some lots do hit harder than others, but it's good warm ammo. RWS/GECO and the S&B police are similar in spec as well.

[396]

I do not have a chrono. I did give some to a buddy to test for me and he shot them from a G17. High was in the 1330s and low was in the 1240s for 20 or 25 rounds that I gave him. Some lots do hit harder than others, but it's good warm ammo. RWS/GECO and the S&B police are similar in spec as well.

Swiss or Hungarian manufactured GECO? I don't have a chrono, but some Hungarian GECO 124gn I recently purchased shoots a little softer than my Blazer 124gn, and noticeably softer than the Federal aluminum 115gn Wally World stuff. Non-scientific certainly, but I was expecting hotter stuff.

[TiroFijo]

Not all loads from a maker are loaded the same. If you want to be sure, chrono your loads or read the tech info from the maker (important to check barrel length, to compare apples to apples).

[Sportster883]

Swiss or Hungarian manufactured GECO? I don't have a chrono, but some Hungarian GECO 124gn I recently purchased shoots a little softer than my Blazer 124gn, and noticeably softer than the Federal aluminum 115gn Wally World stuff. Non-scientific certainly, but I was expecting hotter stuff.

The stuff I have is Swiss. The jacket is bimetal and shoots horrible from his Glock but shoots very well from my XD9 for accuracy.

[Chuck Haggard]

The stuff I have is Swiss. The jacket is bimetal and shoots horrible from his Glock but shoots very well from my XD9 for accuracy.

Also makes a lot of sparks when it hits steel.

[Rich]

Well I got some emails back

1 from the Speer expert

M&P 9mm Gold Dot 124gr +P

M&P 40S&W Gold Dot 180gr

The 40S&W has 1 pressure level and it is the same pressure as the 9mm standard pressure.
The slide speed increase as bullet velocity increases and so more velocity tends to be harder on the pistol than the slower often heavier bullets.

Nothing anything new to me.
The 40S&W 180gr have less velocity than the 9mm +P and +p+loads



Email from Ruger about there SR 9mm using +P +P+ and SR 40S&W using 180gr loads
They stated
We do not have a difference in the models for stating if one has a longer service life than the other!

Then they turn around and say Although the SR series is capable of firing+P ammo a steady diet of it is not recommended? LOL


waiting for HK and S&W

[Chuck Haggard]

From working with the Glock 17 and 22 extensively, I can tell you for a fact that the .40s push the slide velocity higher regardless of what weight bullet, although the fast 165s were the worst for feeding failures due to excessive slide velocity.

[Rich]

Also makes a lot of sparks when it hits steel.

Chuck
Ive seen go back and forth! as far as the 9mm 147 HST

I can see why the 147gr HST penetrates well. The Dia is smaller than the 180gr HST. Of coarse I think both bullets expand plenty enough.

If I liked the 147 HST Impulse in my P30S 9mm I would be using the load for SD.


BTW according to ATK own HST 9mm gel testing NONE of the loads fully passed the FBI testing. Really freaked seeing the 147gr HST only penetrating 12inches of BG

[Rich]

From working with the Glock 17 and 22 extensively, I can tell you for a fact that the .40s push the slide velocity higher regardless of what weight bullet, although the fast 165s were the worst for feeding failures due to excessive slide velocity.

135 ,150,155 can be driven fast. 1350 -1200fps. I use to use those loads for SD. LOL Thank God for Doc testing

BTW I hated the Gen 2 G23 I had for a very short time. I also got rid of my Beretta 96 after 500rds

So Im not a hard core 40 fan . I even gave up the 40S&W recently for a 9mm

I just thought if a agency issued + or +P+ it wouldn't last as long as service pistols shooting the heavy 180gr loads.
and have slightly better performance tracking etc!

[TiroFijo]

From working with the Glock 17 and 22 extensively, I can tell you for a fact that the .40s push the slide velocity higher regardless of what weight bullet, although the fast 165s were the worst for feeding failures due to excessive slide velocity.

The 40 loads has 25-30% more recoil impulse than a normal 9 mm load, and about 20% more than 9 mm +P loads. Yet the G22 and G17 have almost the same recoiling mass (slide + barrel) and the recoil spring is the same up to Gen 3.

I agree that a heavier slide would tame slide velocity a lot in the 40 glocks.

[DocGKR]

.40 S&W subjectively feels like a sharper impulse; .45 Auto is more of a heavy push, while 9 mm is a light push. With high round count training, .40 & .45 hurt more the next day, 9 mm not so much.

Glock should have put the .40 S&W into the GAP style guns--that would be perfect.

[BWT]

The 40 loads has 25-30% more recoil impulse than a normal 9 mm load, and about 20% more than 9 mm +P loads. Yet the G22 and G17 have almost the same recoiling mass (slide + barrel) and the recoil spring is the same up to Gen 3.

I agree that a heavier slide would tame slide velocity a lot in the 40 glocks.

That spring issue is also why they went with a double captured spring. They did that because it was cheaper to have one similar spring. So the .40 S&W Glocks in Gen 3 were unreliable; they redesigned the spring and dropped into Gen 4 9mm Glocks which then promptly led to a recall of all Glock Gen 4 9mm springs because they weren't working.

They're not interchangeable; that's two generations of Glocks that indicate springs aren't interchangeable.

[TiroFijo]

And I still prefer a single spring for the G17/19,like the Gen3 RSA. A double spring is not needed here.

Instead, or in addition of changing springs (a half ass fix) for the Gen4 G22/23 they should have increased the recoiling mass, but they didn't probably because of existing holsters and keeping everything as untouched as possible in the exterior.

Glock should also ideally change to metal magazines because they are thinner, perhaps even offer other grip angles, a bit better beaver tail, etc., but the legacy parts and accesories overweight technical issues. Same with all the rest of the gun.

In all fairness, they are a victim of their own early success (well earned) and the pistols are still top notch IMO.

[Chuck Haggard]

A Glock 37 chambered in .40S&W does indeed recoil less, felt recoil anyway, than a G22, and runs a lot better, especially with a light mounted.

When the M4 had feeding issues due to excessive bolt velocity they didn't add a stronger buffer spring, they built a heavier buffer.

[Sportster883]

A Glock 37 chambered in .40S&W does indeed recoil less, felt recoil anyway, than a G22, and runs a lot better, especially with a light mounted.

When the M4 had feeding issues due to excessive bolt velocity they didn't add a stronger buffer spring, they built a heavier buffer.

Where did you find a G37 chambered in 40S&W?

[Chuck Haggard]

Where did you find a G37 chambered in 40S&W?

Bar Sto barrel conversion, like what people do with the drop in 9mm barrels for the G22

[Sportster883]

Bar Sto barrel conversion, like what people do with the drop in 9mm barrels for the G22

I called them in 09 and asked if such a thing was being made. They told me they made a couple to give it a try, but they never worked. They told me there was no future plans to make them.

I am glad someone got one of the few prototypes, maybe they should have tried more than one pistol. It sounds as if yours runs fine with it, while theirs did not. How in the world did you get it?

http://www.barsto.com/category_main.cfm?ID=G37&cco=87

[LSP972]

9mm may last longer, but honestly how many are wearing out the .40 for that to matter?



More than you would think. The local PD here got all new guns after suffering several "third pin" breakages (one in an actual gunfight). The FTU staff would love to go to 9mm, but the story I hear is that management says no.

My former agency FTU people have been trying to go back to 9mm for several years. Same story; management says no. However, we are in the process of getting all-new Gen4 pistols, to replace the Gen3 RTFs, and the troops were allowed to choose between a 17 or a 22. From what I'm hearing, one hell of a lot of guys selected the 17.

What's interesting is that practically EVERY agency of any size that issues sidearms, in this part of the state, issues the G22. Most have piggy-backed off of our (State Police) contract. A rather large sheriff's office just south of the Baton Rouge metro area recently completed a change-over to 17s from their 22s. Dunno about any of the others, as I'm out of that loop now.

But you can bet the grocery money that its happening, all over the country. And as word that the FBI is doing it filters down to the unwashed masses, look for more to change. The reasons vary, but it is definitely a "trend".

.

[Sportster883]

More than you would think. The local PD here got all new guns after suffering several "third pin" breakages (one in an actual gunfight). The FTU staff would love to go to 9mm, but the story I hear is that management says no.

My former agency FTU people have been trying to go back to 9mm for several years. Same story; management says no. However, we are in the process of getting all-new Gen4 pistols, to replace the Gen3 RTFs, and the troops were allowed to choose between a 17 or a 22. From what I'm hearing, one hell of a lot of guys selected the 17.

What's interesting is that practically EVERY agency of any size that issues sidearms, in this part of the state, issues the G22. Most have piggy-backed off of our (State Police) contract. A rather large sheriff's office just south of the Baton Rouge metro area recently completed a change-over to 17s from their 22s. Dunno about any of the others, as I'm out of that loop now.

But you can bet the grocery money that its happening, all over the country. And as word that the FBI is doing it filters down to the unwashed masses, look for more to change. The reasons vary, but it is definitely a "trend".

.

One benefit to that is the gunshow tables will have plenty of 40 caliber trade ins cheap, the more the better because someone can undercut the next table by $10.00, supply and demand is an awesome thing. It will just be redistribution of who is shooting the 40. I see it in no way a decline in 40 shooters and will only make it more popular with cheap good guns flooding the market as the way I see it.

[JBP55]

I see it in no way a decline in 40 shooters and will only make it more popular with cheap good guns flooding the market as the way I see it.

I disagree.

[Chuck Haggard]

I called them in 09 and asked if such a thing was being made. They told me they made a couple to give it a try, but they never worked. They told me there was no future plans to make them.

I am glad someone got one of the few prototypes, maybe they should have tried more than one pistol. It sounds as if yours runs fine with it, while theirs did not. How in the world did you get it?

http://www.barsto.com/category_main.cfm?ID=G37&cco=87

It wasn't my barrel, a friend bought it, he was willing to pay them to make a single example. It worked perfectly over the course of several months of my testing it, lots of different ammo, light or no light mounted. With the medium velocity type ammo the gun barely ran, but most people that want to run a .40 want to run the hotter ammo.

[Sportster883]

It wasn't my barrel, a friend bought it, he was willing to pay them to make a single example. It worked perfectly over the course of several months of my testing it, lots of different ammo, light or no light mounted. With the medium velocity type ammo the gun barely ran, but most people that want to run a .40 want to run the hotter ammo.

That's neat. I am happy it works for him. That fat heavy slide must really tame even the warmest 40 loads. When I talked to them they were not even interested in making one for me. I'm glad they changed their mind. Any time you can dual caliber a pistol is a good thing. Thanks for sharing.

One of the softest shooting loads in any caliber is the slower Winxhester silver tip in 45GAP. If someone fears over penetration the 185 silver tip in either 45 auto loading cartridge is a fine choice. It recoils like the winchester defend 9mm 147 load I have been testing, and it works great in the XD9, it's loaded with that 147 load right now. Very accurate and deep penetrating, always expands.

[Sportster883]

I disagree.

Don't be shy, explain. The mid 90s was a great time to grab cheap model 10s and various 9mm self loaders. Even the ones in better shape to never fired were going cheap. I picked up a barely fired P226 for $300 in 1997. All thanks to Gaston (along with a bunch of preban mags dor it). My little brother got a nice 1989 built G17 for the same price. Best part was Glock replaced all the internal parts before they offed it real cheap. As a consumer of guns, I would love to see police leave a platform in droves again. I could buy a trade in G22 and get a 9mm and 357 SIG barrel for cheaper than a new G22 alone would cost.

[ST911]

One benefit to that is the gunshow tables will have plenty of 40 caliber trade ins cheap, the more the better because someone can undercut the next table by $10.00, supply and demand is an awesome thing. It will just be redistribution of who is shooting the 40. I see it in no way a decline in 40 shooters and will only make it more popular with cheap good guns flooding the market as the way I see it.


I disagree.

In the past several months, I know dealers that have altogether declined agency trades of .40 Glocks 22/23 and .40 Sigs 226/229, due to overstock. If willing to take them, trade value was very low. Steep discounting on existing used inventory wasn't clearing the shelves. In converting agencies, individual officers trying to dump personally owned CCW/BUG .40s for compact 9s seem to be having only slightly better luck with single unit trades.

This will vary by vendor and area of course, but reports of same are becoming more frequent.

[Sportster883]

In the past several months, I know dealers that have altogether declined agency trades of .40 Glocks 22/23 and .40 Sigs 226/229, due to overstock. If willing to take them, trade value was very low. Steep discounting on existing used inventory wasn't clearing the shelves. In converting agencies, individual officers trying to dump personally owned CCW/BUG .40s for compact 9s seem to be having only slightly better luck with single unit trades.

This will vary by vendor and area of course, but reports of same are becoming more frequent.

As pressure raises to get rid of them, the offering price will drop, if it ain't low enough, it will drop more. When they hit the gunshow tables they will be a steal. By the time 1995-97 rolled around when the same thing happened, the getting was good. Everyone and their brother had a police trade in pistol or revolver.

[Tamara]

Depends on where the gun was made really. European, we'll just about all other manufacturers around the world build 9mm pistols around CIP spec ammo, not SAAMI spec ammo. European pistols are sent out to CIP proofing before sale, all of them. You won't see any plus signs or capital Ps on the box either. While the ammo is infact SAAMI +P and beyond.

Uh-huh (http://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2014/11/wednesday-range-notes-part-one.html).

That was Fiocchi 9AP.

[DocGKR]

"If someone fears over penetration the 185 silver tip in either 45 auto loading cartridge is a fine choice."

I'll have to disagree that it is a fine choice.

[Chuck Haggard]

Uh-huh (http://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2014/11/wednesday-range-notes-part-one.html).

That was Fiocchi 9AP.

They took your powder to use in those extra fast rounds they make.

[Chuck Haggard]

I'll have to disagree that it is a fine choice.

Concur, really poorly performing load, almost got one of our narcs whacked when underpenetration turned out to be a real problem.

[Rich]

I forgot to add about the 9mm vs 40S&W cost I talked about with the ATK Speer expert

There`s a 6 dollar difference between standard pressure 9mm and 40S&W ammo. 31.00 a box for 180gr Speer

+P and +P+ proportionally higher. I wish we would put a box price compared to the 40cal 180gr. I bet its the same if not close to 31.00 a box.




He also made another remark about both Service pistols

The 9mm has been around for more than 100yrs . The 40 S&W only 25yrs.
I have SELDOM seen worn out 9mm service pistols, nor 40S&W for that matter!
My guess is that Both service pistol show more holster wear than shot loose.

We all know some LE agency should have more training.

[Rich]

Jim Cirillo told me in conversation that he thought the .40 was best chambered in a "large frame" pistol, back then there being pistols that were either built to be 9mms or built to be .45s/10mms. Jim was a smart guy and did a lot of gun and ammo experimenting. His G20 with a .40 barrel worked rather well, as have all of the other G20s I've seen with .40 conversion barrels.

A G20 upper with a shortened front-to-back grip shaped to fit G22 mags would be optimal IMHO


I been reading gun magazines since the 70`s .
BTW I've read about the 10mm never made since to me. ( When the New Delta Elite came at the shop iI bought a Combat Elite instead. My first carry Pistol.)
I read about the 10mm recoil and that it was hard for some to control. Which led to the 40S&W .

The only Kabooms I've heard about that time where G22/23 mostly and not so much the Beretta 96. Although I read about the Beretta 9mm problems that to this day still get thrown into the mix.
( I had both the 98 and 23 both had 500rds fired and traded in.)


What other 40cal LE service pistol were built to 9mm specs. I cant think of any.

Seem Glock & Beretta rushed getting a 40cal pistol in decades ago and the current crop of 40cal LE service pistols are getting a bum wrap to this day.

[Rich]

The 40 loads has 25-30% more recoil impulse than a normal 9 mm load, and about 20% more than 9 mm +P loads. Yet the G22 and G17 have almost the same recoiling mass (slide + barrel) and the recoil spring is the same up to Gen 3.

I agree that a heavier slide would tame slide velocity a lot in the 40 glocks.

That's the reason I like the ole P229 40S&W. heavy SS slide really tames the impulse. And depending on loads used has less of a impulse than my 9mm P30S.

Love to try a 9mm P229R

[Rich]

.40 S&W subjectively feels like a sharper impulse; .45 Auto is more of a heavy push, while 9 mm is a light push. With high round count training, .40 & .45 hurt more the next day, 9 mm not so much.

Glock should have put the .40 S&W into the GAP style guns--that would be perfect.

I wanted a Pistol with l with less impulse than my P229 40S&W when fed 180gr loads

Wanted a G19 but at that time they had some issues.
So I ended up with another DA a P30S V3 9mm.
Headed to range to shoot my normal 500rds. Speer Lawman 147gr & 124gr
I got to 400rds and called it quits.
Believe it or not I think the SP lawman 124gr has less impulse than the SP 147gr lawman.
And the 124gg load is faster ? rated at 1050FPS out of a 4 inch tube

[Sportster883]

I'll have to disagree that it is a fine choice.

Like I said if over penetratin is a persons worry the silvertip is a fine choice for that individual. Lots of people who have no clue do worry about such trivial things. For them, the ones who want less penetration, it will be fine for them. The latest revision does exactly what it's designed to do.

You disagree that it is a shallow penetrator?

[Chuck Haggard]

Like I said if over penetratin is a persons worry the silvertip is a fine choice for that individual. Lots of people who have no clue do worry about such trivial things. For them, the ones who want less penetration, it will be fine for them. The latest revision does exactly what it's designed to do.

You disagree that it is a shallow penetrator?

Pretty sure Doc thinks the problem is exactly that it is a shallow penetrating round. Too much so. I would agree.

[Chuck Haggard]

Rich, I personally don't have enough experience with Sigs to be speaking on the subject from a first hand perspective.

A local department is running Sig .40s as issued duty guns for a couple of hundred guys. I know one of the armorers there, he tells me they have to do a bit more parts work that he would think would happen with the 9mms, but I'd have to ask him for specific details. I try to stay ion my lane when talking about stuff like this.

The Glocks are obviously problematic, as are the Beretta 96s. The S&W 3rd gen guns, even being stainless steel, also had many more issues as .40s than as 9mms. All of these I have a lot of first and second hand info on.

Early on, the HK USP .40s were problematic, and I know of more than a few KaBooms with that platform as well.


Although minor parts are often seen as no big deal by shooters, in agencies this can lead to issues due to scale.

Just jumping on one I know of as a glaring example, the FBI has to maintain about 10,000 Glocks. If the .40 means you have to replace a part, lets say the locking block pin, as part of PMCS, then buying a $3 part for the gun is no big deal. Buying 10,000 $3 parts starts to add up.

I don't know of, and I could easily be wrong about this, of a .40S&W pistol that doesn't require a recoil spring/RSA swap earlier than the 9mm version of that same pistol.
With gen 3 G22s I have seen the gun beat themselves into parts breakage in under 5000 rounds when the RSA is not swapped out. 2000 rounds on an RSA is my personal limit for a Glock .40cal, in the 9mms I've gone 10,000 rounds without issue.

I'll defer to other folks ref different brands of .40 pistol.

[Tamara]

All I know is that I have had my choice of police trade-in G22s and G23s at gun shows for the last couple years, but I'm still waiting for the table with the "LE TRADE-IN GLOCK 19: $329 w/ nites!" sign. :(

[BehindBlueI's]

All I know is that I have had my choice of police trade-in G22s and G23s at gun shows for the last couple years, but I'm still waiting for the table with the "LE TRADE-IN GLOCK 19: $329 w/ nites!" sign. :(

Here you go on a G17, $320. Must be LE, though, as Kiesler's Police Supply generally only sells to agencies or individual officers:

http://www.kiesler.com/police/productdetail.aspx?cat=2616&pid=22737

You see fewer of them traded in because fewer departments bought them to begin with.

[UNM1136]

Here you go on a G17, $320. Must be LE, though, as Kiesler's Police Supply generally only sells to agencies or individual officers:

http://www.kiesler.com/police/productdetail.aspx?cat=2616&pid=22737

You see fewer of them traded in because fewer departments bought them to begin with.

Actually, locally, the officers issued 9mms are very frequently given the option to buy them upon retirement, or when the issue weapon is changed over. Local experience says the 9s get purchased a lot more often than the .40s.

[Chuck Haggard]

If I was in Indiana I'd drive over there and buy one or two of those G17s. I bet I know where they came from.

[BWT]

Not to be a jerk, but we're kind of getting into a circular discussion.

It's a hard sell to say .40 S&W will outlive/outperform/be as equally relevant to the caliber in use by the U.S. Military, NATO, FBI, has been in use since 1902, has 4 different calibers that use the same projectiles (.357 Magnum, .38 SPL, 9mm, and .380), and pretty much all modern SMG's are chambered in, and is also probably the best selling center fire pistol cartridge.

That's not even mentioning the ballistic advantages I mentioned 5-6 pages ago.

You like 40 S&W for your purposes; that's great. I just don't know how much more there is to say about it.

[UNM1136]

I have no experience with the 4th gen glocks. I have carried a Sig P229 on duty for years, and could run it well, but was not in love with it. The 3rd gen Smith and Wesson pistols also didn't stand up too well to going from 9mm to .40, if I recall correctly. The spring weights have already been mentioned, which is an Achilles heel in the Glock platform, in my opinion. Also, if you check Glock's website the mass of a Glock 22 is almost an ounce lighter than a Glock 17. I have had .40 Glocks with less than 5,000 rounds fail on the line, only to start working better when the springs were replaced. This was before Glock recommended replacing springs every 2,500 rounds, and we sorta figured it out on our own and the problems went away. Then two years later I get a technical bulletin asking us to make the change. A large state agency here was in love with the .357sig round, with about 16% more pressure, and the Glocks they bought had more than a 50% failure rate after four years due to wear and tear. The rangemaster got them converted to M&Ps, and four years later dropped the cartridge for 9mm, again because they were "shooting the guns apart".

Sample size means a lot. When you have a couple of guns that you may not shoot particularly hard, you won't see the wear and tear that the armorer/instructor for a 40 officer agency, or a 500 officer agency, or a 1,000 officer agency sees. Half of the cops in that 500 officer state agency were very happy with their issue pistols. The training and armorer staff and purchasers saw a more complete picture, and made the right decision. My experience agrees with a lot of what Chuck has posted already. There is a difference.

I don't think that looking at chamber pressure, or bullet mass, nor muzzle velocity tells a very complete picture for determining recoil, slide velocity, and slide acceleration. Direct empirical evidence should be the gold standard, but it starts to get expensive to design studies to compare apples to apples. The Glock 19 and Glock 23 weigh the same according to my armorer's manual, and according to the interwebs you can shoot 9mm out a G22 with just a barrel change. Looking at it this way may be a step in the right direction, but most of our observations will still be subjective, unless some Pointdexter somewhere wants to design a rig that will allow measuring of those variables across platforms and spend time studying it. Most people that know the difference just make different choices to accommodate their judgements on the topic.


Interesting indeed. However, I'd rather have a G21 that could shoot .40S&W. None of the usual suspects offers this type of conversion barrel. Can someone explain to me what the difference is between the G21 and G20 frames that prevents this?

It's my understanding, though I could be wrong, that a G20 can be converted to shoot .40, and a G21 can be converted to shoot 10mm, so why not .40 in a G21? What am I missing?

Breech face. While the interwebs are full of just slap a barrel in and go, you lose reliability, and safety. The interwebs have complained that you can just load .40 into a G20 and be good to go, but the cartridges headspace on the mouth, so there may be a huge issue, and it will be something that works well until it doesn't. Since the G20 frame and G21 frame are identical, you just need to purchase the parts that they don't share to have the safest, most reliable pistol. Off the top of my head that is the entire upper assembly and the trigger housing. The extractor and ejector line up differently on the different cartridges. I wanted a 10mm for bowhunting in bear country, and I decided to build it. I bought a used frame on Gunbroker, and a slide assembly from EBAY. and a trigger housing/connector/.40 barrel from one of the internet shops.

EDIT: I just looked up my parts list. Chuck is correct, as usual. The 10mm/.45 use the same ejector/trigger housing. All the parts needed to swap are in the slide assembly. The 10mm barrel and slide are much beefier than the .45 parts, so while some guys say you can use the same slide, I wouldn't.
pat

[Chuck Haggard]

One can switch a G21 to a G20 with a slide and barrel swap, the lower is the same.

With two slides and four barrels a guy could have a large frame Glock lower that shot .45acp, 10mm, .40, and .357Sig

If a place limited how many pistols one could own that might be an awesome thing to do.

[Tamara]

You see fewer of them traded in because fewer departments bought them to begin with.

Yes, the fattest part of the ramp-up in widespread Glock adoption coincided with the AWB and widespread use of the .40; you'll get no argument from me that the G22 has been the Model 10 of the last 30 years. Its market share seems to be waning, although it will probably remain in a plurality of LE holsters if no longer a majority.

[BWT]

Looking back, I should've worded my last post more cautiously and patiently. As it is; it may stir up dissension. My apologies about that if it did.

[SamAdams]

One can switch a G21 to a G20 with a slide and barrel swap, the lower is the same.

With two slides and four barrels a guy could have a large frame Glock lower that shot .45acp, 10mm, .40, and .357Sig

If a place limited how many pistols one could own that might be an awesome thing to do.

+1

Yep. Didn't see the earlier question posted.
I got complete G21 uppers and mated them with the lowers on my 20sf pistols, - for shooting 45acp. Use 45 mags when shooting that and 10mm mags for 10 and 40.
Also got a 22LR conversion kit. With the 40 conversion barrel, makes a very versatile set up.

[Tamara]

I'll note that, among much of the general shooting populace, 9mm still carries a stigma. I had my 9mm PPX out on the table at the gun show this past weekend, with four mags, two CCC holsters, a CCC mag holder, and some gun show kydex at a very attractive price, and if I had a dollar for every Cletus that coonfingered it and then said "Oh, it's a nine... Do you have it in .40?" I wouldn't have had to sell it to buy the P320.

[SamAdams]

I'll note that, among much of the general shooting populace, 9mm still carries a stigma. I had my 9mm PPX out on the table at the gun show this past weekend, with four mags, two CCC holsters, a CCC mag holder, and some gun show kydex at a very attractive price, and if I had a dollar for every Cletus that coonfingered it and then said "Oh, it's a nine... Do you have it in .40?" I wouldn't have had to sell it to buy the P320.

They'd probably ask for Hydra-Shok too.

[Tamara]

They'd probably ask for Hydra-Shok too.

Yup. Certain memes are insidious among the low-information sort.

[Ptrlcop]

If I was in Indiana I'd drive over there and buy one or two of those G17s. I bet I know where they came from.

I got one. Went on days off and had a fed ex box waiting on my desk when I got back[emoji1]. The sights were the only thing that really had any wear. It will be going out to AETi for an rmr and grip chop next week.

[ranger]

One can switch a G21 to a G20 with a slide and barrel swap, the lower is the same.

With two slides and four barrels a guy could have a large frame Glock lower that shot .45acp, 10mm, .40, and .357Sig

If a place limited how many pistols one could own that might be an awesome thing to do.

I think there are 9x23 and a 9x25 conversion barrel for G20 too.

[Tamara]

9x25 conversion barrel

If they make a 9x25 Dillon barrel for the G40 MOS, I am in serious danger of doing something stupid, pointless and expensive. :o

[Jac]

If they make a 9x25 Dillon barrel for the G40 MOS, I am in serious danger of doing something awesome, awesome and awesome. :o
FIFY

[HCM]

They'd probably ask for Hydra-Shok too.

No, - BLACK TALONS !

[SamAdams]

If they make a 9x25 Dillon barrel for the G40 MOS, I am in serious danger of doing something stupid, pointless and expensive. :o

My kinda gal ! :cool:

As that old movie said (Risky Business) " Sometimes ya just gotta say WTF ! "

[Chuck Haggard]

If they make a 9x25 Dillon barrel for the G40 MOS, I am in serious danger of doing something stupid, pointless and expensive. :o

Me too. Surprised I haven't done that already.

[Jeep]

Me too. Surprised I haven't done that already.

That ought to help your wrists!

[DocGKR]

Each week for the past several years, I have been contacted by agencies looking to migrate away from .40 S&W to 9 mm; during that same time period, NO agencies have mentioned wanting to move to .40 S&W from another caliber...

[Tamara]

Each week for the past several years, I have been contacted by agencies looking to migrate away from .40 S&W to 9 mm; during that same time period, NO agencies have mentioned wanting to move to .40 S&W from another caliber...

This is my opposite-of-shocked face. ;)

[GJM]

Each week for the past several years, I have been contacted by agencies looking to migrate away from .40 S&W to 9 mm; during that same time period, NO agencies have mentioned wanting to move to .40 S&W from another caliber...

I don't think that is surprising at all.

Do you have any idea what percent of current Glock LE agencies use .40 versus 9? It would be interesting to see Glock's distribution of 9 vs .40 by year -- I bet it peaked a few years back, and is starting to go to 9 at an accelerating rate. The FBI, Marine and other announcement only contributing to that migration to 9.

[DocGKR]

Kind of amazing that the only people who have not gotten the message are Big Army...

[Jeff22]

As Chuck Haggard put it:

"The truth is, on average, they all work about the same, and they all work as well as can be expected with pistols.

If our job as trainers is to get the troops hitting the A zone under stress, then we need to have a systems approach to our program and make sure the troops can do that."

9mm is cheaper and has a lower recoil impulse and so many shooters find it easier to get back on target quicker when delivering rapid multi-shot applications. So switching back to 9mm makes sense for many individual shooters and many agencies.

[Jeep]

Kind of amazing that the only people who have not gotten the message are Big Army...

Big Army = "echelons beyond reality."

[Kyle Reese]

Big Army = "echelons beyond reality."

The same people who will be pissing & moaning about increased recoil if the .40 S&W is adopted by the Army.

[El Cid]

Big Army = "echelons beyond reality."

Precisely. The same organization that replaced auto with the 3 round burst because soldiers were wasting ammo in combat. They replace small arms parts at failure rather than do preventative maintenance. They are all about "fixing" training problems with technology/equipment. Sadly they fail to see they only make things worse when they do that.

[JHC]

Does anyone have credible info that the .40 is truly in play in the MHS or is this assumption based on some of the Army publicized language around "increased lethality" or some such?

I took that with a grain of salt which in big-org parlance could mean anything from a different caliber, change in loads (ie a lighter higher velocity slug) to a FMJ-FP 9mm slug for all that's worth. It doesn't have to be "real" in the world of what we consider real.

[DocGKR]

JHC--Yes, there is gross incompetence going on.

[JHC]

JHC--Yes, there is gross incompetence going on.

We have THAT going for us. :eek:
Thanks!

[DocSabo40]

Kind of amazing that the only people who have not gotten the message are Big Army...

Honest question: isn't the 9mm only acceptable when loaded with modern hollow points? I'm a fan of your posts and I've read every sticky, but it seems to me that of all calibers the 9mm relies the most heavily on bullet technology. Take that away and it has issues. Of course so does every other FMJ. Still, a 9mm FMJ has a surface area of .096 sq in, a .40 cal has .127 sq in, and a .45 is .159 in sq. That seems like a pretty big difference. Is that insignificant when the other factors are taken into account? Thanks.

[DocGKR]

Fairly insignificant between FMJ's. If stuck with FMJ, then a .45 Auto makes the most sense in many respects. However, based on recent Law of Landwarfare decisions, as well as the fact the U.S. did not sign or ratify the Hague protocol in question, the U.S. military is NOT stuck with FMJ's, thus the point is somewhat moot.

[HCM]

I'm not Doc but all service caliber FMJ performs pretty much the same and the actual wounds from service caliber FMJ are nearly indistinguishable. The two issues addressed by the current generation of 9mm hollow points were inadequate penetration due to over expansion and /or jacket separation. While not as effective as current 9mm HP, 9mm FMJ doesn't have either of those issues.

[DocSabo40]

As a former Marine and current soldier (kind of, the Army is paying my way through dental school) I would be delighted if we stopped following the Hague convention that we never signed. Think it will ever happen though? Not that I will need HSTs in the dental clinic, but still.

[Chuck Haggard]

Honest question: isn't the 9mm only acceptable when loaded with modern hollow points? I'm a fan of your posts and I've read every sticky, but it seems to me that of all calibers the 9mm relies the most heavily on bullet technology. Take that away and it has issues. Of course so does every other FMJ. Still, a 9mm FMJ has a surface area of .096 sq in, a .40 cal has .127 sq in, and a .45 is .159 in sq. That seems like a pretty big difference. Is that insignificant when the other factors are taken into account? Thanks.

That sort of math seems simple, in real life it's not. No bullet except a sharp edged wadcutter makes a full sized hole. I've seen .45acp FMJ entrance wounds that were pin holes, just as an example. Tissue is often very elastic in nature.

[BehindBlueI's]

That sort of math seems simple, in real life it's not. No bullet except a sharp edged wadcutter makes a full sized hole. I've seen .45acp FMJ entrance wounds that were pin holes, just as an example. Tissue is often very elastic in nature.

Don't you suppose some of that is due to the body's swelling reaction?

[Chuck Haggard]

I kinda diverge from Doc when it comes to being stuck with FMJ only ammo.

For CONUS defense or police work in a full sized pistol I'd likely go with the .45 in 230gr ball. That loading is well know as far as what it does, and one of the things I have noticed is that it often actually stays inside the person shot, or if it exits it doesn't go very far.

For military work I'd prefer the hottest 9mm FMJ or AP round I can get. Bad guys who carry rifles tend to be wearing stuff, like chest rigs, LBE, etc. In testing that I have done, and seen done, or talked to other competent folks who have tested this, 9mm ball gets through things like a full canteen, loaded AK mags in a chest rig, flak vests, helmets, etc far, far better than the .45 does. IMHO any bullet hole you put in your bad guy trumps no bullet hole in your bad guy.
I also think 9mm does better against cars than the .45 does.

Also, I've worked several shootings on the street where 9mm ball was used, and the bullet obviously yawed and caused greater damage than one would excpet from a RN bullet. It doesn't happen every time, but it's rather common in my observation.

9mm bullets that yaw, example;
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?15470-9mm-gel-test-Underwood-115-gr-Lehigh-Extreme-Penetrator-(and-S-amp-B-115-gr-FMJ)

[Chuck Haggard]

Don't you suppose some of that is due to the body's swelling reaction?

I'll let the medical guys answer that one for sure, but many of the people I've seen shot were either very closely after the fact and time for swelling would be limited, or they were dead and dead people don't have body function type responses to trauma after they are dead.

[Jeep]

I kinda diverge from Doc when it comes to being stuck with FMJ only ammo.

For CONUS defense or police work in a full sized pistol I'd likely go with the .45 in 230gr ball. That loading is well know as far as what it does, and one of the things I have noticed is that it often actually stays inside the person shot, or if it exits it doesn't go very far.

For military work I'd prefer the hottest 9mm FMJ or AP round I can get. Bad guys who carry rifles tend to be wearing stuff, like chest rigs, LBE, etc. In testing that I have done, and seen done, or talked to other competent folks who have tested this, 9mm ball gets through things like a full canteen, loaded AK mags in a chest rig, flak vests, helmets, etc far, far better than the .45 does. IMHO any bullet hole you put in your bad guy trumps no bullet hole in your bad guy.
I also think 9mm does better against cars than the .45 does.

Also, I've worked several shootings on the street where 9mm ball was used, and the bullet obviously yawed and caused greater damage than one would excpet from a RN bullet. It doesn't happen every time, but it's rather common in my observation.

9mm bullets that yaw, example;
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?15470-9mm-gel-test-Underwood-115-gr-Lehigh-Extreme-Penetrator-(and-S-amp-B-115-gr-FMJ)

Chuck: Your points on penetration are valid, but at the same time the 9mm round nose has always been a mediocre wounding round. If stuck with FMJ--and all else was equal--I'd take a 165 gr. 40 at 1150 fps over a 124 gr. 9 at 1200 fps simply because the .40 will probably be a truncated cone and probably do a somewhat better (though still mediocre) job wounding.

However, everything else isn't equal and since 9mm is significantly easier to train on and batters guns less, if I were equipping an army, I'd choose 9mm.

I would also try to create a more terminally effective round, which I think can be done for a lot less money than buying lots of .40 cal. pistols. I think this is where the Army has failed to date, and it appears they are doing nothing of the sort but instead are looking to spend a lot of money unnecessarily.

[Chuck Haggard]

I haven't noted that FMJs in any service pistol caliber wound any differently than any other such bullet of different caliber. .40S&W FMJFP is often seen on the street, doesn't work any better than 9mm ball of any kind in my observation.

[DocGKR]

Almost every GSW or puncture wound entrance hole we see in tissue ends up being SMALLER than the actual projectile or implement size would suggest due to tissue elasticity closing down the wound--particularly wounds produced by pointed smooth surfaces like on an FMJ, ice pick, target arrow, etc.... This is true on patients we see in the ED, OR, and on autopsy. Note that holes in hard organs and bone can behave a bit differently, as do projectiles with sharper leading edges. For example, I recently treated a guy who was shot in the maxilla with a .38 Super 130 gr FMJ fired at about 1250 fps. He walked into the ED about 6-8 hours after being shot. The actual hole in the facial tissue measures only about 6 mm. Note that the underlying bone damage was more irregular and overall a bit larger in size than the soft tissue entrance wound.

All FMJ is about the same when it comes to wounding. 9 mm tends to punch through metal and armor better, while .45 Auto tends to do a bit better against glass and wall board. But honestly, they all are less than ideal against soft tissue.

[Jeep]

Doc: My understand (and observation) with animals is that a flat point does better than a round point. Do you think that can be observed with humans or are the differences too small to tell?

[Joe Mac]

The more gunshot wounds I see (and I've seen many), the less confident I am in being able to guess the caliber/projectile from the entry hole.

Not long ago I was standing beside a veteran Homicide sergeant looking at a small hole in a victim's torso. "Looks like a .22 rimfire," he offered. "Yeah, maybe..." I said. It turned out to be a 7.62x39!

[ST911]

I've seen a number of handgun GSWs in common calibers in the field (pre-hospital response). Rarely is there a clue to caliber by wound or other sign, and at times they can be downright underwhelming. A recent high thoracic hit with a .40 FMJ flat point was very...meh.

[DocGKR]

Unless you are talking about a full wadcutter, a flat point FMJ is not very different than a round nose FMJ in terms of tissue damage.

[Jeep]

Thanks, Doc. Sounds like that is another dead end.

[LSP972]

... Glock's distribution of 9 vs .40 by year -- I bet it peaked a few years back, and is starting to go to 9 at an accelerating rate.

That is what is happening here. I had a long chat with our current SWAT commander today, and he told me that over 75% of the SWAT guys opted for the G17 on the recent choice everyone (rank and file troopers, SWAT, ancillary alphabet agencies, etc.) was offered.

Another large sheriff's office in a neighboring parish (county) just completed the switch from G22s to G17s, and several other large local agencies want to.

My guy also said that contract-priced 9mm, both training ball and "duty" ammunition, is getting hard to find again, with long lead times. Good news for retailers… not so hot news for the coppers.

.

[TiroFijo]

This thread has excellent information! Thanks to all. May I suggest a sticky?

Since I'm stuck in a FMJ-only country for civilians (as most/all south america), the info regarding 9 vs 40 vs 45 is very interesting, as well as the ogival vs flat point comparison.

A few years ago I did a couple of wild pig (descendent from escaped domestic pigs, typically 120-180 lbs) hunts with handguns, shooting quite a few of them on the run with 9-40-45-357, all FMJ or hard cast bullets. We never saw anything remarkable about any of these loads, and all took a few bullets to fall. All loads were typical factory loads with non expanding bullets, or similar reloads, and where you hit them was far more important than caliber, weight, velocity, nose shape or energy of the bullet. Admitedly the experiment was informal and of small scale, but stil very interesting.

[RJ]

My guy also said that contract-priced 9mm, both training ball and "duty" ammunition, is getting hard to find again, with long lead times. Good news for retailers… not so hot news for the coppers.

.


I am not regularly finding on-line sources of my HD load of choice (9mm Speer GD 124+p) in stock. When I do see a notice (example: email blast from sgammo.com), unless I place the order in the next few hours, it is out of stock immediately. Not really a problem for me, but it is a concern that the LEO agencies have that problem...

Do LEO agencies not have regular (and more or less guaranteed) in-stock access to Duty rounds as opposed to say the general public?

Does each agency have to order ammo off the regular channels (web?) or do ya'll deal directly with the suppliers through a back door? Or does LE have specific arrangements direct with the ammo manufacturers (say, Speer) to supply their range and duty ammo?

[Chuck Haggard]

When I was running our program I was ordering 16k rounds of duty ammo and 200k or more of ball ammo, per year. That sort of order would bumps one up a bit.

That I also didn't have to deal with fiscal year BS like many people do, I'd have my quotes and POs done before the end of the year, Jan 2nd I'd nit send and get my orders in. Never had a problem with using that tactic in getting ammo on time.
The year we tried to transition to G22s, and went back to 9mm, was the year I got my Gold Dot order in behind NYPD and Chicago PD, that gave use a ten month wait for duty ammo, and caused us to carry Ranger-T that year.

[Chuck Haggard]

This thread has excellent information! Thanks to all. May I suggest a sticky?

Since I'm stuck in a FMJ-only country for civilians (as most/all south america), the info regarding 9 vs 40 vs 45 is very interesting, as well as the ogival vs flat point comparison.

A few years ago I did a couple of wild pig (descendent from escaped domestic pigs, typically 120-180 lbs) hunts with handguns, shooting quite a few of them on the run with 9-40-45-357, all FMJ or hard cast bullets. We never saw anything remarkable about any of these loads, and all took a few bullets to fall. All loads were typical factory loads with non expanding bullets, or similar reloads, and where you hit them was far more important than caliber, weight, velocity, nose shape or energy of the bullet. Admitedly the experiment was informal and of small scale, but stil very interesting.

Can you use anything that expands at all, or only non expanding FMJ ammo?

[TiroFijo]

Only non expanding ammo, FMJ or lead does not matter. People here obsess over 147 gr subsonic flat point vs normal supersonic 115-124 gr ojival point 9 mm, vs 40 180 gr flat point, vs 45 ACP round vs flat point, etc.

[LSP972]

.40S&W FMJFP is often seen on the street, doesn't work any better than 9mm ball of any kind in my observation.

Mine as well; we see a lot of that bullet in the lab.

.

[LSP972]

Do LEO agencies not have regular (and more or less guaranteed) in-stock access to Duty rounds as opposed to say the general public?



Depends on "who" your agency is, and when you place an order... but more than one distributor has been known to sell ammunition intended for LE agencies to non-LE retail outlets, because the distributor's mark-up/profit was higher that way.

As for agency purchasing agendas, each one is different, and probably not a good topic for discussion on an open forum.

.

[Chuck Haggard]

Only non expanding ammo, FMJ or lead does not matter. People here obsess over 147 gr subsonic flat point vs normal supersonic 115-124 gr ojival point 9 mm, vs 40 180 gr flat point, vs 45 ACP round vs flat point, etc.

I think I'd train with whatever was cheap, and use the highest quality ball ammo I could find for carry, and call it good.

In my observation, FP FMJ pretty much stays point forward in gel and people all of the time, while RN FMJ often yaws and will penetrate less when it does.

Are you allowed to carry in public? If so, those laws seem ridiculous to force a CCW person into choosing ball ammo for carry.

[JBP55]

One local Agency orders ammunition 18 months before it is needed and stores it in a climate controlled warehouse. When it is needed at the range a truck/trailer will deliver several pallets to be stored in a climate controlled Armory at the the range. That Agency was having some difficulty keeping ammunition in stock several years ago and ran low but never ran out.
Our local PD orders a year in advance and stores in a climate controlled "C Can".

[TiroFijo]

I think I'd train with whatever was cheap, and use the highest quality ball ammo I could find for carry, and call it good.

In my observation, FP FMJ pretty much stays point forward in gel and people all of the time, while RN FMJ often yaws and will penetrate less when it does. Thanks! The famous yaw of the 9 mm seems to be a very variable thing, perhaps depending on small differences in bullet design or fleet yaw. The standard 1-10 twist is WAY over what is needed to stabilize even the heaviest bullets available in this caliber, and probably used just for tradition sake.

Are you allowed to carry in public? If so, those laws seem ridiculous to force a CCW person into choosing ball ammo for carry.

Thanks for the advice. You must get a special permit from the police to carry a gun, and yes, these laws are ridiculous.

[Chuck Haggard]

Thanks for the advice. You must get a special permit from the police to carry a gun, and yes, these laws are ridiculous.

I hope at least you can get access to higher quality ball ammo, such as for real military issue stuff, etc. Most of the bulk practice ammo isn't optimal as far as QC when it comes to being used as carry ammo.

[JTQ]

In my observation, FP FMJ pretty much stays point forward in gel and people all of the time, while RN FMJ often yaws and will penetrate less when it does.

Here's an article I've found interesting on the subject that explains why flat points penetrate straight and round nose yaws. The article deals with rifle big game hunting solids, but the bullet nose shape should have the same effect with either pistol or rifle.

http://www.gsgroup.co.za/articlepvdw.html

[Chuck Haggard]

A long time ago some observant guys had figured out that flap point bullets penetrated straighter, and tended to not yaw in tissue.

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_12_KeithSWC.htm

[Jeep]

A long time ago some observant guys had figured out that flap point bullets penetrated straighter, and tended to not yaw in tissue.

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_12_KeithSWC.htm

But, how does one square their view of the effectiveness of flat points with the many observations here about it being difficult to tell the difference between a 9mmFMJ and a .40 FMJFP?

To quote that chapter: "Autopsies revealed that the blunt or flat-pointed bullets did more tissue damage, left bigger holes and resulted in far more bleeding than the puncture wounds of the round-nosed projectiles (these wounds had a tendency to close over and bleed little)."

Without doubting the least what you, Doc and LSP all report, is there something about old-time flat points that were different from modern truncated cones?

Forgive me for returning to this point, but I am genuinely puzzled by this and can't get the data to square.

[Chuck Haggard]

The more effective FPs have a wider meplat, and a sharper leading edge, and frankly are often used on the largest targets, big game larger than deer being an example.

Note one reason why Elmer Keith designed his own bullet was dissatisfaction with the regular SWCs of his time.

All of the available FMJFPs I have seen, and that is most common in the .40, are bullets with very rounded leading edges and don't cut any more efficiently than a RN bullet. The FP likely leads to a slightly larger temp cavity, but at handgun velocities that is wasted.

[DocGKR]

Exactly.

[Jeep]

The more effective FPs have a wider meplat, and a sharper leading edge, and frankly are often used on the largest targets, big game larger than deer being an example.

Note one reason why Elmer Keith designed his own bullet was dissatisfaction with the regular SWCs of his time.

All of the available FMJFPs I have seen, and that is most common in the .40, are bullets with very rounded leading edges and don't cut any more efficiently than a RN bullet. The FP likely leads to a slightly larger temp cavity, but at handgun velocities that is wasted.

Thanks, Chuck. Do you think a concave flat point would do a better job? I note that in my .380 I carry Winchester flat points on the hope that they might be marginally more effective than most other pretty lousy .380 bullets. That bullet seems to be less rounded than most .40 FMJ's I've seen, but might a concave design for the .40 give it a better cutting edge?

For those unfortunate enough to have to follow the State Department's prissily eccentric view on the Hague convention (or who are forced to resort to a .380 for one reason or another), I keep looking for a FMJ design that has better wounding potential.

[DocGKR]

There are none.

[Jeep]

You keep dashing my hopes!

[Chuck Haggard]

I don't know of one either, although I think it would help cut better.

In .380, which in shooting at people I think is analogous to shooting magnum revolvers at large game (little bullet vs large mammal...) the FP on the WWB at least helps keep the bullet going in a straight direction, and the .380 needs penetration.

[Jeff22]

I'm re-reading this thread. I'm about to begin experimenting with a Trijicon RMR06 (type 2) on a Glock 34. (I already carry a Glock 35 [Hornady Critical Defense ammo] on duty)

I'm 60. Had cataract surgery in 2010 and my vision is now 20/45 or something like that (it was like 20/1000 BEFORE the cataracts). Even with the spiffy new bionic lenses in my eyes (and glasses) I am at the point where conventional iron sights are beginning to be quite fuzzy in the dim light of an indoor range. I am interested to see how the RDS works out.

What I'm trying to decide is, if the RDS experiment works out, do I just use the Glock 34 or get a G22 or G35. I'm in Wisconsin, and so people are wearing heavy clothing about four months out of the year and penetration in heavy clothing is an issue.

At one time, .40 S&W seemed to have better performance through intermediate barriers like winter clothing and laminated auto glass. My research seems to indicate that this is no longer necessarily true.

I'm fine with shooting lots of .40 in a full sized gun (Sig 226, G22 and G35 in .40 are what I am familiar with since 2004) but I'd be perfectly happy going back to 9mm as long as it will perform good against heavy clothing.

[Beat Trash]

There are several 9mm rounds that work well against heavy clothing.

I would stay with your 9mm.

[KhanRad]

What I'm trying to decide is, if the RDS experiment works out, do I just use the Glock 34 or get a G22 or G35. I'm in Wisconsin, and so people are wearing heavy clothing about four months out of the year and penetration in heavy clothing is an issue.

At one time, .40 S&W seemed to have better performance through intermediate barriers like winter clothing and laminated auto glass. My research seems to indicate that this is no longer necessarily true.

I'm fine with shooting lots of .40 in a full sized gun (Sig 226, G22 and G35 in .40 are what I am familiar with since 2004) but I'd be perfectly happy going back to 9mm as long as it will perform good against heavy clothing.

Indeed, the two most important tests in the FBI protocols to determine acceptable caliber and load performance are the heavy clothing(4-layers of denim better) and windshield tests. There was a time with the 9mm in which JHPs did poorly in those tests. The reason being is that the 9mm has a long ogive to the bullet to improve feeding. So old bullet designs tended to use nose cavities that were small which were more prone to plugging in clothing turning the bullet into a FMJ as it entered tissue. The .357magnum(pretty much the same caliber), used a short ogive with a more durable bullet and thus did not experience many terminal effects or barrier penetration problems. The other problem with old bullet designs is that they used thin, soft bullet jackets with relatively soft cores in order to help the bullet expand more easily, however the weaker material shredded apart as it passed through a windshield(especially in the 9mm with its pointy nose). The solution at the time was to create a bullet design that had a short ogive to give the nose more durability, and use a larger caliber to make the JHP cavity wider and less prone to plugging. The .40S&W fit this criteria, and was a more reliable alternative.

However, now we have bullet designs like the Federal HST, Speer G2, and Hornady Critical Duty which are considerably more advanced. They have addressed those design flaws of the past, creating a very durable bullet with reliable expansion and they have outstanding performance in the heavy clothing and windshield tests. In this day and age, I would not go out and buy a .40S&W(resale is terrible). If you already have .40s and like them, then keep using them. I used .40 for many years(in addition to 9mm and .45), and it has over the years become my least favorite service caliber. It has had almost 30 years in law enforcement(many of those being the dominant caliber), and hasn't really demonstrated any superiority over 9mm or .45 to justify using it any more. As least those are my 2 cents.......

9mm or .45acp........but 75% of the time I choose 9mm.

[JAD]

40 still does better versus barriers, per Doc’s last look. Mr. Givens carries a 40 by choice. It makes me flinchy or I could be convinced.

[KhanRad]

40 still does better versus barriers, per Doc’s last look.

My agency shot up 13 cars over 4 years. We shot in and out of the vehicles, as well as shot up the vehicles. We brought extra windshields with us to lay over the previously shot out windshield so that training would last longer. From all that shooting, the .40S&W more often(not always) did better than the 9mm in terms of passing through likely vehicle barriers. However, we found that the .40 showed more deflection after passing through the windshield resulting in our shooters missing the target inside and outside the vehicle more so than the 9mm shooters depending on the angle of attack. We also found that 9mm 124gr+P or 127gr+P+ were more likely to punch through the A/B/C pillars in newer cars(older cars were too tough) than any of the .40 155gr, 165gr, or 180gr loads that we tested. The .357magnum 158gr Gold Dot was by far the most effective all around out of our 4" test gun. The .40 is a trade-off just like the other calibers.....although many would argue that the juice is not worth the squeeze.

[Jeff22]

This is turning into a good discussion . . .

I retired from one PD (and went back after 7 weeks as a part-timer). There I'm issues a G22 gen IV with a Streamight TLR WML. Issued duty ammo is 165 grain Winchester Ranger.

I work part time for another PD and there I carry a personal G35 gen 4. Duty ammo is Hornady Critical Defense.

[Matt Helm]

My prediction is the .40 S&W will make a comeback ,with better bullets & more efficient propellant.
When that happens, a lot of folks that remember it's origin, will be in old folks homes or dead.

[Baldanders]

I would be really interested to see a breakdown of sales of pistol caliber rounds by state. If our WalMarts are any indication, 9mm is king, .40 is queen, .45 still doing fine, but .38/.357 is very lightly stocked and seems to be on the way out. It is also vey high priced--I think you could shoot a .357 SIG cheaper than a .38 if you were relying on Wally World ammo in northern NC.

I am really feeling my recent 45th birthday-- I remember when the first .40 Smiths showed up in my LNGS in Cincinnati and one of the old duffers behind the counter offered the opinion that he had no use for a .40 as he had 9mm and .45acp guns. My group of friends seems to be in the boat. I have one friend who owns a .40. My experience with shooting .40 is a half mag through a 239 once. I would jump on a reasonably priced 239, but if a get a cheap trade in Glock, SIG or S&W .40, it will be getting a drop in 9mm barrel.

[KhanRad]

I would be really interested to see a breakdown of sales of pistol caliber rounds by state. If our WalMarts are any indication, 9mm is king, .40 is queen, .45 still doing fine, but .38/.357 is very lightly stocked and seems to be on the way out. It is also vey high priced--I think you could shoot a .357 SIG cheaper than a .38 if you were relying on Wally World ammo in northern NC.

I am really feeling my recent 45th birthday-- I remember when the first .40 Smiths showed up in my LNGS in Cincinnati and one of the old duffers behind the counter offered the opinion that he had no use for a .40 as he had 9mm and .45acp guns. My group of friends seems to be in the boat. I have one friend who owns a .40. My experience with shooting .40 is a half mag through a 239 once. I would jump on a reasonably priced 239, but if a get a cheap trade in Glock, SIG or S&W .40, it will be getting a drop in 9mm barrel.

If you really want a base gun with a drop in barrel for multiple calibers, then the base gun should be the caliber you plan to use in a deadly force encounter(literally to hell and back). The platform often dictates the caliber used. For instance, most guns are great 9mm guns, but only a few are great .40S&W guns. The only reason why I would carry a .40S&W these days is if I worked highway patrol meaning that I would be fighting in and around vehicles a lot.............however, I do that now and I still choose 9mm.

[BBMW]

Everyone year or three on another board, I run a poll of LEOs to see what caliber their agency is issuing. Back when .40 was it in the LEO market, it had about 50% of the responses, with 9mm having about a third, and everything else splitting the rest. I ran it again a 9mm and .40 both came in at 40%, with everything else splitting the rest. So .40 is far from dead. But it's trajectory is not upward.


I would be really interested to see a breakdown of sales of pistol caliber rounds by state. If our WalMarts are any indication, 9mm is king, .40 is queen, .45 still doing fine, but .38/.357 is very lightly stocked and seems to be on the way out. It is also vey high priced--I think you could shoot a .357 SIG cheaper than a .38 if you were relying on Wally World ammo in northern NC.

I am really feeling my recent 45th birthday-- I remember when the first .40 Smiths showed up in my LNGS in Cincinnati and one of the old duffers behind the counter offered the opinion that he had no use for a .40 as he had 9mm and .45acp guns. My group of friends seems to be in the boat. I have one friend who owns a .40. My experience with shooting .40 is a half mag through a 239 once. I would jump on a reasonably priced 239, but if a get a cheap trade in Glock, SIG or S&W .40, it will be getting a drop in 9mm barrel.

[andre3k]

My prediction is the .40 S&W will make a comeback ,with better bullets & more efficient propellant.


I think so as well.



Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

[Nephrology]

I may have already posted this, but .40S&W is still the cheapest and most low-effort way to make major power factor in USPSA with factory ammo.

[Chuck Haggard]

Ref "heavy clothing";

Penetration through heavy clothing with even the shittiest bullets, such as Glasers, is a non issue. Performance AFTER heavy clothing is the issue.

I regularly see people, not necessarily here, posting that they use light JHPs in the summer and ball ammo or heavier JHPs in the winter due to "heavy clothing", implying that bullets might stop in the clothing. That's not how any of this works.

Over the decades at my old job we shot a lot of people with 124gr +p Gold Dot. We never had a bullet failure, including through very heavy clothing and car barriers.

An extreme example was a armed robbery suspect one of my friends shot. Bad guy was wearing one of those big poofy old school Oakland Raiders coats over Carhartt coveralls, over a denim jacket, over a flannel shirt, over Long Johns over a T-shirt. Shooting was in a blizzard at about -20 degrees. Duty pistol was a S&W 3906. Damn near worst possible case scenario for a JHP to still expand, and both bullets looked like they fell off of the Speer Gold Dot bullet poster. They also penetrated more than enough.

[Trumpster]

It seems to me that this thread is an exposition of nuanced inanity packaged as reasoned logic supported by purported scientific protocol that has yet to be revealed to inquiring minds.

An article in a late 90's issue of the FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin indicated that it cost governmental agencies a half mil to put one cop in-service. Adjusting for inflation and considering the rule of 72, that has to have reached at least a mil. Worse, while it's possible that some posters here do, I know of not a single law enforcement agency that would issue a cartridge with PROVEN inferior efficacy. Law enforcement agencies test the heck outta stuff before issuing it to their cops. Multiply that by a factor of 10 when it cops to officer survival gear. Usually large sheriffs' offices with big R&D budgets do extensive testing and share results will allied agencies.

There is proven tactical efficacy of suppressive fire, which large capacity have over limited capacity. Preventing a bad guy from killing you is sound tactical protocol. Please, guys, spare me of the neophyte, gun magazine entertain BS of, "You're responsible for every shot fried from your weapon." No, cops and good guys aren't responsible as long as they're within their agencies' training protocol, and suppressive fire is. Bad guys, under the felony murder rule, are responsible for all shots fired at them.

It might be a regional thing, but to me it's outright lack of knowledge to even remotely assert that law enforcement agencies would use a less effective cartridge due to a CFO's recommendation. Do people really believe that law enforcement agencies would knowingly place their officers' lives at rick to save maybe 50k a year?

It's patently obvious that 9MM aficionados have built their fortresses upon their reliance that bullet technology has made it equal to the .40 S&W and .45 ACP. They'll even refer to what they assert is scientific proof, yet not a one has yet to reveal scientific research and methodology used to prove testing validity. It's a very tenuous extrapolation from gelatin tests to actual intended application. Gelatin doesn't shoot back, nor is it physiologically affected by PCP, meth, alcohol, etc. It's just as tenuous to extrapolate results of one actual shooting to another. There are far too many factors to isolate any one as causal of anything. Each and every shooting is individualistic with no scientific predictive value to the next.

That the FBI has adopted the 9MM as its issued cartridge tells me a big fat zero. I'd want to know what handguns majority of its cops decide to carry. Are they going to carry the FBI's issued handgun? Will a majority carry a handgun chambered for the .40 S&W? The .45 ACP? Knowledge will be found in what FBI cops carry, not the FBI's issued cartridge.

I've never expected any handgun cartridge to expand like the magic mushrooms that handgun cartridge manufacturers love to display in marketing media.

While I'm on the bullet topic, let me attempt to refute a holy grail of many posters here. ANY hit on a bad guy is a good hit. Some are better than others, but any hit is a good hit. And it might be to only hit you'll get. A gunfight, by definition, means a bad guy wants you reduced to evidence of murder and autopsied the following morning. Are you going to help him achieve his immediate objective? If you stand toe-to-toe and take precise aim, have your crap in one sock because you're likely to meet God. The longer you remain a stationary target for a bad guy who wants to reduce you to room temperature, the drastically higher the probability of your taking rounds.

If you can't hip point at 6 feet or shoulder point at 10' or shoulder point using front sight only at 21' feet, you might want to reassess your ability to survive a gunfight. Maybe handgun carry ain't for you. The longer you remain within a bad guy's sight picture, the higher the probability a pathologist will determine your cause of death. Survivors know how to shoot first (situational awareness), shoot fast (even a miss is a good shot if it suppresses a bad guy's ability to send rounds your way), and get the hell outta a bad guy's line of sight. Another hugely significant deadly consequence of aimed fire is surrendering to the involuntary response of tunnel vision. Keep both eyes open and your head moving for visuals of other bad guys. It's likely the bad guy you don't see due to the involuntary response of tunnel vision who'll cause your ascension to Heaven. LEARN TO POINT SHOOT. Believe me, it's easy to master

The only known way of surviving a gunfight is to not get in one. If Rule One of gun fighting is not an option, Rule Two becomes operative: DON'T GET SHOT. A shot cop is worse than no help to anyone. He becomes a liability to other cops. He has to be extracted for medical care, which places rescuing cops' lives in danger. Do not make yourselves easy targets for bad guys who intend upon making your corpse work for a pathologist.

More important than knowing when to engage is knowing when not to engage. If you can avoid engaging and getting the hell outta Dodge, do it. It's the wisest decision you can make. If engaging appears unavoidable, know where barriers (a barrier will stop an incoming round) are, and how you're gonna get your ass behind it.

Every single ship destroyed at Pearl Harbor was obsolete. The USS Wisconsin was obsolete before it hit water. Billy Mitchell correctly predicted that air power would become the primary naval weapon. The Battle of Midway was the first naval battle that was fought entirely by aircraft. Evolving technology will determine strategies. Asymmetrical and non-kinetic warfare are latest battle strategies. James Rickards can destroy a country without the US Military firing a single shot. Is the destruction of Venezuela's economy the outcome of a CIA plot to effect regime change? Who the hell knows.

I often wonder whether fighter aircraft is obsolete. God only knows what weapons we have and what weapons our military is developing. The point is technology will determine tactics.

When the US Military abandoned the 1911-A1 for the 9MM, I was devastated. Then I thought about the transition. We've come a long way since Revolutionary War muskets. In fact, the primary cause of huge fatalities of the Civil War was due to Revolutionary War battle tactics deployed against modern weaponry. Skirmish lines, especially at Gettysburg, were the direct cause of unconscionable human carnage. Skirmish line soldiers were easy targets for modern rifles capable of 1000 yard accuracy, not limited to 50 yard accuracy of Revolutionary War muskets.

My theory is that battle handguns are obsolete. There is no doubt that the 1911-A1 .45 ACP had unquestionable utility during WWI due to limitations of the Springfield. "The best damned battle rifle ever invented," the M-1 Garand, according to Patton, had a severe reloading problem causing soldiers to rely upon the 1911-A1, especially during Japanese Bonsai suicide charges in the Pacific Theater. The Garand was obsolete when Patton bestowed his famous accolade. Technological improvements in our battle rifles have made battle handguns obsolete. I'd much rather carry more 30 round magazines for an M4 than any battle handgun.

Often overlooked or unknown is that most of the world's countries issued handguns to their military officers not for battle, but for in-field executions of their own soldiers. Hence, large caliber handgun were unnecessary to dispatch a disobedient soldier. The USA & Great Britain used large caliber handguns to kill enemy soldiers, not their own soldiers.

Mostly among 9MM aficionados, the arcane and inane are transitioned into nebulous scientific proof that their beloved cartridge is as good as the .40 S&W or the .45 ACP. They'll create "scientific" methodology and conduct testing methodology designed to prove their hypotheses. I'm good. If it helps them convince themselves, I'm good with their testing all year long and into the next century. A Ph.D. in physics ain't necessary to know that no two shootings are identical. I remember being admonishment by a man's man sergeant who, by himself, had chased down an armed banger and put a .380 between his eyes, which was anomaly for him. He normally carried a 1911-A1. He told me that bad guys are tough. They'll take a lot of rounds and keep on shooting. Add PCP, meth, alcohol, etc. to a bad guy's CNS, and his durability increases geometrically. Apparently what's left of their substance addled brains ain't enough to inform the rest of their bodies that they're dead.

There are more handgun cartridge experts than NASA scientists. Everyone's a damned handgun cartridge expert. All they gotta do is disseminate the image of their expertise. Gelatin testing is almost always their preferred vehicle for conveying their expertise. But if we know handgun tactics and handgun limitations, we can use our prior knowledge to discern fact from camouflaged opinion. And here's fact: cops are trained to shoot and keep shooting until a threat is no longer a threat. Hence, it's common for bad guys to be autopsied with a whole lotta bullet wounds. Cops know that the vertical dead can still kill them.

The last handgun I was FORCED to carry was an H&K USP .45 ACP. Erstwhile sycophants who had managed to maneuver themselves into administrative positions had decided upon handgun uniformity among cops with disparate physical traits. An exception was made for a woman whose hands were too small to fit around the enormous grips of the double-stack handgun. She was granted variance to carry the single stack version of the H&K USP .45 ACP. I was not a happy camper with that huge and heavy handgun. I'd of been a whole lot happier with a 1911-A1 .45 ACP. Administrators who love to display their omniscience ain't known for admitting hasty decisions that might've been too damned hasty. The H&K USP was an excellent handgun. However, it was huge and heavy.

The best handgun I've carried over the course of my career was a Sig P229 .40S&W. The P229 has a forged slide as opposed to a stamped slide of the famed Sig P226. I read somewhere within this encyclopedia of a thread that .40 S&W handguns aren't as durable as 9MM. That might be true for converted handguns; that is, 9MM handguns that were converted to fire .40S&W. I'm not sure of the validity of that theory. I can see how it'd be problematic to prove due to plethora of confounding factors. I can definitively write that the Sig P229 was the most reliable and accurate handgun I've ever carried. It fired every range ammo fed to it. On-duty & off, I carried 180 grain Ranger ammo. The Sig P229 was lightweight, had an excellent natural point, was very easy to maneuver, and, most importantly, I had complete confidence in it.

The recoil thing that some posters have going on seems to me to be more nuance of nebulous value. I've never noticed difference between semiautos I've carried: 9MM, .40 S&W, & .45 ACP. Tactical significance is keeping muzzle on threat, and I've had zero trouble doing so with all three. If others can discern recoil difference, I'm good. I couldn't.

The end game is that by now we all know that when one holds an emotional attachment to a handgun cartridge, he can become Einstein at rationalizing his choice. He'll even bust out purported science that he believes buttresses his choice. Pared to pith, it's all opinion. When mated with tactical deployment, we know that there is no such thing as two identical shootings, that drugs and/or alcohol will affect physiological response to trauma, and the mentally infirm tend to react abnormally to trauma.

If you have a favorite cartridge, go with it. It will be your personal preference, assuredly based upon science that supports your choice along with confirming anecdotes.

A friend with whom I used to work put 6 man stopper rounds (the mystical .357 Mag) into the chest of a very bad dude who was so dusted (PCP) that he couldn't figure out how to rack a round in a shotgun. Those 6 man stopper rounds didn't faze the bad guy. A single 870 round to the chest did reduce him to evidence and property of the coroner. Hence, when I hear or read "man stopper" my neophyte warning detector is activated.

Go with your boat floating round. It's an individual choice. Only you should care, for self-defense is a very personal choice. Only you know what's right for you. My advice is to be circumspect when it comes to extrapolating gelatin test data to actual bad guys. Bad guys can soak up a lotta lead before transitioning to their next lives.

The .40 S&W is an excellent cartridge. I don't see it going anywhere. In fact, it's downright popular among So Cal cops.

Remember, there's a handgun expert behind every gun shop counter.

The entire dynamic changes when rounds are heading your way.

[Beat Trash]

Take a hard look at how many larger agencies throughout the country that traditionally were 40 cal agencies either have or are in the process of transitioning to 9mm upon the cycle of replacement of duty weapons. There are solid reasons why this is happening.

Within the same design of bullet, the performance is the same, or close enough between the 9m and the 40. (Go talk with the Chief of Staff at any inter-city level 1 trauma center's Emergency Department. Ask if he can tell the difference between someone shot in the chest with a 9mm vs someone being shot in the same location with a 40 cal. Care to guess what he'll say...?) Wear on the gun is less with a 9mm. Felt recoil is less with a 9mm, thereby making it easier for the average shooter to put rounds on target, demonstrated by the overall average increase in qualification scores within the agency. Training ammunition for 9mm is cheaper. And training ammunition makes up the majority of an agency's ammunition budget. Maybe not that big of a deal if you only buy a couple of cases per year. My agency goes through around 1.3 million rounds per year, so yes the cost difference between 9mm and 40 ammunition needs to be considered.

Is the 40 cal dead? far from it. But is it going to remain the dominant Lae Enforcement caliber in this country? I highly doubt it.

The reason is simple, it just makes sense.

[Nephrology]

Within the same design of bullet, the performance is the same, or close enough between the 9m and the 40. (Go talk with the Chief of Staff at any inter-city level 1 trauma center's Emergency Department. Ask if he can tell the difference between someone shot in the chest with a 9mm vs someone being shot in the same location with a 40 cal. Care to guess what he'll say...?)

I'm no Dept chair, but basically all handgun caliber entry/exit wounds look identical to me. .22 entry wounds look a little smaller than centerfire pistol cartridges but I've been fooled before. Haven't really seen many rifle or shotgun GSWs.

[DocGKR]

"Law enforcement agencies test the heck outta stuff before issuing it to their cops."
That has not been my experience. Only a few very large agencies have the resources and skills to be able to conduct accurate and valid testing.



"It might be a regional thing, but to me it's outright lack of knowledge to even remotely assert that law enforcement agencies would use a less effective cartridge due to a CFO's recommendation."
Again, this has not been what I have observed over the past 30 years--I've frequently witnessed agencies making poor choices despite being provided accurate validated data which documented a better option.



"They'll even refer to what they assert is scientific proof, yet not a one has yet to reveal scientific research and methodology used to prove testing validity."

Given all the wound ballistic data that has been published over the past two decades, I am surprised regarding the continued amount of misinformation being perpetuated about this subject, especially in light of the voluminous results available from CONUS OIS incidents, as well as OCONUS combat results.

A variety of equally important methodologies are used for terminal performance testing, including actual shooting incident reconstruction, forensic evidence analysis, and post-mortem data and/or surgical findings; properly conducted ethical animal test results; and laboratory testing—this includes the use of tissue simulants proven to have correlation with living tissue. Some individuals seem to be under the mistaken impression that one of these areas is more important than others--this is not the case, as each category provides important information to researchers.

The IWBA published some of Gene Wolberg’s material from his study of San Diego PD officer involved shootings that compared bullet performance in calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin with the autopsy results using the same ammunition. When I last spoke with Mr. Wolberg in May of 2000, he had collected data on nearly 150 OIS incidents which showed the majority of the 9mm 147 gr bullets fired by officers had penetrated 13 to 15 inches and expanded between 0.60 to 0.62 inches in both human tissue and 10% ordnance gelatin. Several other agencies with strong, scientifically based ammunition terminal performance testing programs have conducted similar reviews of their shooting incidents with much the same results--there is an extremely strong correlation between properly conducted and interpreted 10% ordnance gelatin laboratory studies and the physiological effects of projectiles in actual shooting incidents. The forensic results of every OIS incident I am aware of match the findings demonstrated in the lab using properly conducted 10% gel studies.

We have nearly two decades of recent OCONUS military operations that have provided a tremendous amount of combat derived terminal performance information. The U.S. government gathered numerous experts from a variety of disciplines, including military and law enforcement end-users, trauma surgeons, aero ballisticians, weapon and munitions engineers, and other scientific specialists to form the Joint Service Wound Ballistic Integrated Product Team to conduct a 4 year, 6 million dollar study to determine what terminal performance assessment best reflected the actual findings noted in combat. Over 10,000 test shots were conducted. The test protocol that was found to be correct, valid, and became the agreed upon JSWB-IPT “standard” evolved from the one first developed by Dr. Fackler at LAIR in the 1980’s, promoted by the IWBA in the 1990’s, and used by most reputable wound ballistic researchers and savvy LE agencies. This testing was further amplified by the joint USMC-FBI study, the TSWG-MURG program, the CTTSO AIM conferences, as well as ongoing research by other allied entities.

The IWBA, JSWB-IPT, FBI BRF, AFTE, and other organizations get/got to assess an extensive amount of post-shooting forensic data. The whole raison d'être of these independent, non-profit organizations is to interpret and disseminate information that will help LE and military personnel more safely and effectively perform their duties and missions. Physiological damage potential is the only metric that has been shown to have any correlation with field results in actual shooting incidents, based on law enforcement autopsy findings, as well as historical and ongoing combat trauma results. In other words a damage-based metric has relevance to and accurately reflects the real world, while other measures of "lethality" and "incapacitation" are elaborate fantasy games of mathematical calculations and engineering statistics that fail to truly reflect the fact that in the gritty realm of face-to-face combat, incapacitating the enemy is about rapidly inflicting sufficient physiological damage to the enemy’s critical anatomic structures in order to stop that opponent from continuing to be a lethal threat. The FBI BRF, USMC, NSWC Crane, and USSOCOM are all using physiological damage based metrics.

Folks who choose to ignore these documented and verified facts may not like this, but based on all of this carefully collected, independently validated, real-world derived data the wounding characteristics an optimal combat/LE/personal defense handgun and rifle projectiles are well known...

[BehindBlueI's]

There is proven tactical efficacy of suppressive fire, which large capacity have over limited capacity. Preventing a bad guy from killing you is sound tactical protocol. Please, guys, spare me of the neophyte, gun magazine entertain BS of, "You're responsible for every shot fried from your weapon." No, cops and good guys aren't responsible as long as they're within their agencies' training protocol, and suppressive fire is. Bad guys, under the felony murder rule, are responsible for all shots fired at them.

In a long post of outdated and bad information, this one can't go unchecked even though it is outside the scope of this subforum.

I suspect you'll have a tough time finding a LE agency that is teaching suppressive fire today. Like warning shots, that's an antique that isn't sitting on the modern shelf. It was also code for missing (two warning shots then I shot him = I missed twice and "suppressing" with a handgun, meant you were missing a lot). Suppressive fire is about pinning someone in place while other elements maneuver to a position of advantage. Given how short in time and space, along with how likely you are to be alone or with a single partner in a position to do anything about it, that's not happening in the LE world and shouldn't be a fucking thought in your head for self defense where it's YOU and only YOU.

Criminally, are you responsible for the damage a miss does? No, probably not. If you're shooting in good faith the shot will be judged as justified or not based on if the bullet had hit it's intended "bad guy". If you're deemed reckless, that might change based on where you live. Is "suppressive fire" good faith? Dunno, but I wouldn't bet my pension on it. Could if fuck you like a house cat in civil court? Lulz, yes. Court of public opinion? Lulz, yes. Reduce faith in and the credibility of your organization (if you're LE) in response? Absolutely.

While I assume the vast vast majority of PF knows this, I'd hate for some neophyte to wander in here and walk away without that dangerous "suppressive fire" notion refuted. Carry on.

[jd950]

In a long post of outdated and bad information, this one can't go unchecked even though it is outside the scope of this subforum.

I suspect you'll have a tough time finding a LE agency that is teaching suppressive fire today. Like warning shots, that's an antique that isn't sitting on the modern shelf. It was also code for missing (two warning shots then I shot him = I missed twice and "suppressing" with a handgun, meant you were missing a lot). Suppressive fire is about pinning someone in place while other elements maneuver to a position of advantage. Given how short in time and space, along with how likely you are to be alone or with a single partner in a position to do anything about it, that's not happening in the LE world and shouldn't be a fucking thought in your head for self defense where it's YOU and only YOU.

Criminally, are you responsible for the damage a miss does? No, probably not. If you're shooting in good faith the shot will be judged as justified or not based on if the bullet had hit it's intended "bad guy". If you're deemed reckless, that might change based on where you live. Is "suppressive fire" good faith? Dunno, but I wouldn't bet my pension on it. Could if fuck you like a house cat in civil court? Lulz, yes. Court of public opinion? Lulz, yes. Reduce faith in and the credibility of your organization (if you're LE) in response? Absolutely.

While I assume the vast vast majority of PF knows this, I'd hate for some neophyte to wander in here and walk away without that dangerous "suppressive fire" notion refuted. Carry on.

This is all correct, however I have dealt with a few OIS where it sort of looked like a number of rounds were "spotting fire" followed by a few "fire for effect." Seriously, though. I like the .40, in the right gun in the right circumstance, and I think it can offer some benefits over 9mm where intermediate things must be be penetrated to hit a target. In any case I hope it doesn't die off or get too neglected in ongoing cartridge development. But were I the one making such decisions, 9mm is what I would issue/authorize in a law enforcement agency today, generally speaking.

[Jeep]

The best handgun I've carried over the course of my career was a Sig P229 .40S&W. The P229 has a forged slide as opposed to a stamped slide of the famed Sig P226. I read somewhere within this encyclopedia of a thread that .40 S&W handguns aren't as durable as 9MM. That might be true for converted handguns; that is, 9MM handguns that were converted to fire .40S&W. I'm not sure of the validity of that theory. I can see how it'd be problematic to prove due to plethora of confounding factors. I can definitively write that the Sig P229 was the most reliable and accurate handgun I've ever carried. It fired every range ammo fed to it. On-duty & off, I carried 180 grain Ranger ammo. The Sig P229 was lightweight, had an excellent natural point, was very easy to maneuver, and, most importantly, I had complete confidence in it.



Well, there are a lot of things in this post with which I would disagree or think are besides the post. However, I agree the SIG P229 is one of the best .40 cal handguns out there, and that the .40 cal. is a good handgun cartridge (in the right guns). Although I think the 9mm is good enough at everything and best at other things (recoil does matter if you are trying to get as many hits as possible; and price does matter unless you have an unlimited checkbook), I agree thatt the .40 is indeed marginally better for some--potentially important--applications.

That being said I like my M&P .40, dislike my G-22, and won't be buying any further .40's because overall the 9mm is good enough.

[Exiledviking]

Never heard of a single stack USP 45. A P9S in .45 perhaps?

[LtDave]

Never heard of a single stack USP 45. A P9S in .45 perhaps?

Me neither. And pretty sure no agency in SoCal ever issued the P9S.

[TiroFijo]

We have nearly two decades of recent OCONUS military operations that have provided a tremendous amount of combat derived terminal performance information. The U.S. government gathered numerous experts from a variety of disciplines, including military and law enforcement end-users, trauma surgeons, aero ballisticians, weapon and munitions engineers, and other scientific specialists to form the Joint Service Wound Ballistic Integrated Product Team to conduct a 4 year, 6 million dollar study to determine what terminal performance assessment best reflected the actual findings noted in combat. Over 10,000 test shots were conducted. The test protocol that was found to be correct, valid, and became the agreed upon JSWB-IPT “standard” evolved from the one first developed by Dr. Fackler at LAIR in the 1980’s, promoted by the IWBA in the 1990’s, and used by most reputable wound ballistic researchers and savvy LE agencies. This testing was further amplified by the joint USMC-FBI study, the TSWG-MURG program, the CTTSO AIM conferences, as well as ongoing research by other allied entities.

The IWBA, JSWB-IPT, FBI BRF, AFTE, and other organizations get/got to assess an extensive amount of post-shooting forensic data. The whole raison d'être of these independent, non-profit organizations is to interpret and disseminate information that will help LE and military personnel more safely and effectively perform their duties and missions. Physiological damage potential is the only metric that has been shown to have any correlation with field results in actual shooting incidents, based on law enforcement autopsy findings, as well as historical and ongoing combat trauma results. In other words a damage-based metric has relevance to and accurately reflects the real world, while other measures of "lethality" and "incapacitation" are elaborate fantasy games of mathematical calculations and engineering statistics that fail to truly reflect the fact that in the gritty realm of face-to-face combat, incapacitating the enemy is about rapidly inflicting sufficient physiological damage to the enemy’s critical anatomic structures in order to stop that opponent from continuing to be a lethal threat. The FBI BRF, USMC, NSWC Crane, and USSOCOM are all using physiological damage based metrics.


DocGKR, is the US Army also currently using damage based metrics?

No more "computer man" calculations based on % hit probability, hit location, bullet energy, etc.?

Is the gel standard the same as FBI, or still 20% gelatin, or whatever?

[KhanRad]

while it's possible that some posters here do, I know of not a single law enforcement agency that would issue a cartridge with PROVEN inferior efficacy. Law enforcement agencies test the heck outta stuff before issuing it to their cops.

Up until 2004, I still found caches of Winchester 9mm 115gr Silver Tips that were issued out in several armories in the DOI. While giving a lecture at Artesia FLETC several years ago on ammunition selection, I soon found out that at least a dozen agencies in the training system had been issued the same load beyond Y2K. This is the infamous load used by Jerry Dove in the Miami shootout, and the most famous example of what NOT to use. However, often times a contracting officer will make ammo and equipment selections not based on viable data, but on price and vendor rotation.


Please, guys, spare me of the neophyte, gun magazine entertain BS of, "You're responsible for every shot fried from your weapon." No, cops and good guys aren't responsible as long as they're within their agencies' training protocol, and suppressive fire is.

Ever been sued or investigated? My uncle was also a cop from the late 1950s through 1994. Early in his career, drinking a couple of beers during lunch and writing a one paragraph report on a deadly force encounter were common place and accepted. Warning shots, and suppression fire, no matter how well the matter is articulated in court, will get you crucified in today's legal environment.


Do people really believe that law enforcement agencies would knowingly place their officers' lives at rick to save maybe 50k a year?

Liability mitigation. Do you buy the best ammo/body armor/etc knowing that 1%(+or- given the agency) of your force will trade rounds, or do you take the funding pot and put it towards things that build PR and thus, more funding? Having worked in procurement on the federal side, I can tell you that often times subpar equipment is selected based on the odds of it being needed.


It's patently obvious that 9MM aficionados have built their fortresses upon their reliance that bullet technology has made it equal to the .40 S&W and .45 ACP. They'll even refer to what they assert is scientific proof, yet not a one has yet to reveal scientific research and methodology used to prove testing validity. It's a very tenuous extrapolation from gelatin tests to actual intended application. Gelatin doesn't shoot back, nor is it physiologically affected by PCP, meth, alcohol, etc. It's just as tenuous to extrapolate results of one actual shooting to another. There are far too many factors to isolate any one as causal of anything. Each and every shooting is individualistic with no scientific predictive value to the next.

Equal?....no. Measurable trade-offs?....yes. I too have used a half dozen service calibers on duty(.38spl, .357mag, 9mm, .40S&W, .45acp, .357sig), and benefits and detriments are measured before I make my carry decisions. As for the terminal effects department, I think Dr. Robert's post on the decades long, extensive multimillion dollar testing through LE and military entities speaks for itself.


That the FBI has adopted the 9MM as its issued cartridge tells me a big fat zero. I'd want to know what handguns majority of its cops decide to carry. Are they going to carry the FBI's issued handgun? Will a majority carry a handgun chambered for the .40 S&W? The .45 ACP? Knowledge will be found in what FBI cops carry, not the FBI's issued cartridge.

I work with the FBI on occasion, as well as attend some of their trainings. Most field offices are 9mm heavy now days. As for officers in the field?......my experience with a typical staff makeup is 25% barely qualify, 50% do "okay", and 25% are very proficient. Even with that 25% of the most proficient, I can only take about 10% of those to a competition shoot. These generally are the guys/gals that make up our special tactics teams, and when I start encountering some knowledgeable firearms discussions. Pragmatism embodies much of this topic, and boils down to more of the platform dictating the caliber along with appropriate ammunition selection. The result is a mix of 9mm, .40, and .45 shooters.....although, 9mm tends to be dominant.


I've never expected any handgun cartridge to expand like the magic mushrooms that handgun cartridge manufacturers love to display in marketing media.

Actually, most recovered projectiles from our shootings, along with other Federal agencies who are willing to share their OISs for training purposes report that they resemble bullets recovered from the FBI heavy clothing(or 4-layer demin) test. This is also reported by a large number of state and local agencies. Thus, the importance of the FBI heavy clothing test, and why many older JHP designs have failed to expand reliably in the past.


While I'm on the bullet topic, let me attempt to refute a holy grail of many posters here. ANY hit on a bad guy is a good hit.

Sure wounding helps. Many times though it isn't enough to prevent a highly motivated individual from continuing to shoot back, which is why the ability to rapidly follow up with additional shots aimed at vital areas is important training. I encourage you to look up the OISs involving Officer Peter Soulis, Officer Keith Borders, and Officer Tim Grammins. These officers were using modern .40S&W and .45acp JHPS and even with 6+ torso hits and appendage hits, the officers were still having lead thrown at them. I am assuming that you are retired, but those are readily available to the general public. Many, many dozens more OISs are in the training systems over the last few decades that show a similar outcome......accurate hits matter MUCH more than caliber selection.


The best handgun I've carried over the course of my career was a Sig P229 .40S&W. The P229 has a forged slide as opposed to a stamped slide of the famed Sig P226. I read somewhere within this encyclopedia of a thread that .40 S&W handguns aren't as durable as 9MM. That might be true for converted handguns; that is, 9MM handguns that were converted to fire .40S&W. I'm not sure of the validity of that theory. I can see how it'd be problematic to prove due to plethora of confounding factors. I can definitively write that the Sig P229 was the most reliable and accurate handgun I've ever carried. It fired every range ammo fed to it. On-duty & off, I carried 180 grain Ranger ammo. The Sig P229 was lightweight, had an excellent natural point, was very easy to maneuver, and, most importantly, I had complete confidence in it.

The recoil thing that some posters have going on seems to me to be more nuance of nebulous value. I've never noticed difference between semiautos I've carried: 9MM, .40 S&W, & .45 ACP. Tactical significance is keeping muzzle on threat, and I've had zero trouble doing so with all three. If others can discern recoil difference, I'm good. I couldn't.

As an agency armorer, firearms instructor, and tactics instructor, the classic Sig DA/SA line has been my expertise since the late 1990s. The P229 .40 is a "decent" .40S&W pistol due to its heavy slide mass which tames the rearward recoil force and does not require a P220 strength recoil spring in the process. At the same time that heavy slide likes to make the muzzle nosedive with the return force of the slide though. I carried the P229 .40 for 5 years, but found that my shooter performance was superior with a P228 9mm, P226 9mm, or P220 .45acp. One of many problems with federal agencies(from my observations state and local too), is that firearms training and qualification standards are subpar. Typical standards are established to remove only the most of incompetent of officers, and must not be too challenging otherwise the agency must deal with litigation. Even special tactics team qualification standards are often mediocre. Therefore, most officers will not notice a .40 or .45 handicap in their agency qualification or training.....especially when they train with green ammo or lower powered FMJ. Put the same student through some advanced training with dynamic scenarios and time constraints and even the most skilled of students using .40 or .45 start sweating to try to stay ahead(or keep up) with the less skilled 9mm student. Pushing students into competition quickly changes their equipment selection. As Massad Ayoob has observed, those who shoot in competition seem to have a remarkably high hit potential and survival ratio in actual gunfights.(Combat Shooting with Massad Ayoob).


The .40 S&W is an excellent cartridge. I don't see it going anywhere. In fact, it's downright popular among So Cal cops.

28yrs ago when the .40S&W hit the market it could more reliably pass the FBI protocol tests than the 9mm or .45acp available at the time. Given the bullet technology, it made sense for many agencies to switch to it especially those transitioning from revolvers. Has the .40S&W improved since then?.......a "little". With newer loads like the RT and HST it expands more reliably in the heavy clothing test, and stays together a little better in the windshield test......but no earth shattering performance improvements. There was never any arguing that the .40S&W did well in FBI protocol tests. For many agencies including my own, once 9mm JHP became engineered such that it could penetrate as deeply as .40S&W in testing and expand just as reliably through diverse materials such as clothing and building materials it became a competition to see what would be a better choice. We tried a number of platforms such as DA/SA Sigs, Glocks, Berettas, and HK P2000s to see how our more skilled shooters performed. We selected our more skilled because they would be less handicapped using the .40S&W versus less accomplished shooters. Percentages varied, but in high stress, dynamic shooting environments with time constraints our shooters showed measurable performance improvements in using 9mm vs .40 in the various platforms. Speed and accuracy are king, and those criteria improved.

.40S&W will stay around for a long time. At the moment it is not handicapped by bullet or propellant technology, but by recoil technology. If a means comes to better mitigate recoil forces to increase pistol durability and shooter follow-up speed then it might make a comeback. Then again, if such a technology existed and it were applied to the 9mm, then it would only make the 9mm a more ridiculously fast and accurate shooter. In LE and military service, the .40S&W's appeal is based on the premise that the 9mm is not adequate....so proving that would have to come into play for a return to widespread .40 use in those services.

[Jeep]

.40S&W will stay around for a long time. At the moment it is not handicapped by bullet or propellant technology, but by recoil technology. If a means comes to better mitigate recoil forces to increase pistol durability and shooter follow-up speed then it might make a comeback. Then again, if such a technology existed and it were applied to the 9mm, then it would only make the 9mm a more ridiculously fast and accurate shooter. In LE and military service, the .40S&W's appeal is based on the premise that the 9mm is not adequate....so proving that would have to come into play for a return to widespread .40 use in those services.

This is an outstanding post. Well thought out, well written and thoroughly factual. It's the kind of post that is a real credit to PF.

[Chuck Haggard]

A whole bunch of horseshit that gave me Forest Whitaker eye.....


Literally every single thing you wrote in this post is wrong. Not just wrong, fractally wrong.

I have to wonder if you are a troll, because just as one would have to willfully try to get every single answer wrong on a test, you've trotted out every bad gunshop trope from the last 50 years and put it into a single post.

[DocGKR]

Tiro Fijo:

Is the US Army also currently using damage based metrics? Not Big Army

No more "computer man" calculations based on % hit probability, hit location, bullet energy, etc.? Nope--ORCA and its offspring are sadly very much alive in Big Army.

Is the gel standard the same as FBI, or still 20% gelatin, or whatever? Bizarrely, Big Army still clings to 20% gel.....and often fails to use standard, agreed upon ammo test protocols (ex. XM17 ammo testing).

[TiroFijo]

Wow... Big Army still has its "own ways" :eek:

One would think that someone very high in the command hierarchy of all US armed forces would push for unifying criteria on this very important topic.

What about the US SF community? Are they more receptive to damage based metrics, like the USMC?

Or each group has its own rules, way of thinking?

[mongooseman]

This I understand, although it can be mitigated by replacing guns more frequently, if .40 was desired. What I can not easily replace is ME, and .40, particularly in a service pistol size like the G22, 226, and P30, wears ME out faster. My elbows and hands have a hard enough time holding up to my round count of 9.

Which brings us probably one of the primary reasons that 9mm is more popular: Cost. Cheaper to purchase 9mm and guns last longer so the department doesn't have to buy new guns or replacement parts. Our main bean counter (who is actually kinda bean shaped) can tell you to the cent how much cash will be saved buying 9mm instead of .40 caliber. He also has figured that qualification scores will go up so that will mean less rounds (cents) expended. It makes him happy.

[DocGKR]

"One would think that someone very high in the command hierarchy of all US armed forces would push for unifying criteria on this very important topic."

The JSWB-IPT participants, including Big Army, all agreed on a standardized test protocol in 2006. However, since then, Big Army, particularly Aberdeen, has not adhered to the criteria that was agreed upon. Most other elements, including SOF, seem to have followed the correct criteria....

[Jeep]

The JSWB-IPT participants, including Big Army, all agreed on a standardized test protocol in 2006. However, since then, Big Army, particularly Aberdeen, has not adhered to the criteria that was agreed upon. Most other elements, including SOF, seem to have followed the correct criteria....

It's cool. Compared to the Ordinance corps fiasco's like the M-73/211 coaxial machine gun that was usually a single-shot weapon (to name just one of a staggering number of disasters), their failure to enter the 21st century on the terminal effectiveness of pistol rounds is small potatoes. In fact, we're lucky that they still aren't shooting dead pigs.

[Gadfly]

As mentioned earlier in thread, the Feds go through tens of millions of rounds per year. In our case, all the ammo gets shipped by the pallet to the national firearms unit. There, the staff randomly pulls three cases per pallet, and pulls a few random boxes and checks them on the chrono and barrier penetration. If the rounds are not in spec, they can reject the lot, or designate it “for training only”.

But the point is, the national unit then ships the ammo out to the field. If for example a case of 40 weighs 25lbs, and a case of 9mm weighs 19lbs... work that cost of shipping out and multiply it out by millions of rounds. The 9mm ammo is cheaper and the shipping is cheaper. That’s a win/win all the way round. The switch may save us 10-20% on our ammo budget. That’s a good thing.


Sent from my iPhone
(So Excuse the typos)

[HCM]

As mentioned earlier in thread, the Feds go through tens of millions of rounds per year. In our case, all the ammo gets shipped by the pallet to the national firearms unit. There, the staff randomly pulls three cases per pallet, and pulls a few random boxes and checks them on the chrono and barrier penetration. If the rounds are not in spec, they can reject the lot, or designate it “for training only”.

But the point is, the national unit then ships the ammo out to the field. If for example a case of 40 weighs 25lbs, and a case of 9mm weighs 19lbs... work that cost of shipping out and multiply it out by millions of rounds. The 9mm ammo is cheaper and the shipping is cheaper. That’s a win/win all the way round. The switch may save us 10-20% on our ammo budget. That’s a good thing.


Sent from my iPhone
(So Excuse the typos)

For scale, our office's last shipment was 300k rounds.

[Jeep]

As mentioned earlier in thread, the Feds go through tens of millions of rounds per year. In our case, all the ammo gets shipped by the pallet to the national firearms unit. There, the staff randomly pulls three cases per pallet, and pulls a few random boxes and checks them on the chrono and barrier penetration. If the rounds are not in spec, they can reject the lot, or designate it “for training only”.

But the point is, the national unit then ships the ammo out to the field. If for example a case of 40 weighs 25lbs, and a case of 9mm weighs 19lbs... work that cost of shipping out and multiply it out by millions of rounds. The 9mm ammo is cheaper and the shipping is cheaper. That’s a win/win all the way round. The switch may save us 10-20% on our ammo budget. That’s a good thing.


Sent from my iPhone
(So Excuse the typos)

Yeah, but better be careful. Next thing you know the bean counters will be demanding a 10-20% reduction every year! ("You did it last year. I don't understand the reluctance about doing it again")

[MDFA]

Here's my experience with the .40. In 1995 my agency converted from 9mm S&W 6906 to the first Gen Glock 22 .40 at my recommendation. I was the head firearms instructor at the time. During a Blackwater class the trigger pin and trigger spring broke in my pistol, we shot 2500 rounds in 5 days in that class. I'm not recoil sensitive but I was done shooting for a few days anyway after 2500 rds.

I had to repair a couple of our guns for similar parts breakage over the years. After around 15 years we changed over to Gen 4 M22, and did the RSA replacement soon after getting them. About a year before I retired in 2016 our new Chief asked me about changing over to 9mm, which I was in favor of. The previous Chief would not entertain the idea when I brought it up.... no surprise.... they are now converting over to 9mm.....

For what it's worth I agree as others have said. The .40 is a good round, but I don't think it brings anything to the table that isn't answered by quality 9mm now. The pros just don't out weigh the cons for most people... If you shoot it well and it makes you happy march on...

That being said my duty gun that I received upon retirement will be converted to 9mm or sit in the safe as I carry a M19.

Be Safe

[Hot Cereal]

I used to go a long with the 9mm has less recoil argument. I got a chronograph last Christmas. In my completely unscientific testing I found the 9mm to only recoil less than .40 when it was loaded with fairly anemic 115gr ammo. My results and observations: (Guns used: HK P2000 9x19; Glock 23)

115gr Perfecta FMJ: 1118fps
115gr Winchester SXZ JHP: 1138fps
Those loads were creampuffs. Recoil impulse was the same as any FMJ you'd find at the store: UMC, WWB, Blazer, etc. They were easy to shoot fast. I honestly didn't even notice the recoil.

124gr+P HST: 1171fps
124gr FMJ Winchester NATO: 1138fps
Recoil was substantially greater from these loads than the 115gr loads. The HST slightly greater than the ball load.

147gr+P HST: 1001fps
I found this load to recoil in between the 115s and 124s. Manageble, but you knew it was there.

165gr HST: 1108fps
165gr PDX1: 1123fps
These loads were pretty stout.

135gr HST: 1193fps
This load recoiled a lot harder than I thought it would. It wasn't as heavy as the 165s but it wasn't light.

180gr HST: 1018fps
180gr WWB FMJ: 939fps
180gr TAP XTP: 946fps
These loads all produced nearly identical recoil. The HST being just a tad more pronounced. The WWB and TAP loads were identical, I would never be able to tell them apart.

While this was a completely unscientific "experiment" I took a few things away from it. I know that when I'm throwing the bucks down for ammo I'm typically buying the cheapest decent quality stuff I can. Perfecta, WWB, Blazer, Fed Champion etc is probably going to be what I buy unless I find a good online deal. For myself and most people, in 9mm that means light 115gr loads. I really think the 9mm developed, gained, however you want to say it, a reputation for being "soft shooting" from light loads like the ones I measured. The 124+P HST and 124 NATO were loaded much "hotter", as evidenced by their velocity numbers, not only being higher, but actually being close to the list velocity. I found their perceived recoil to be much greater than either 115gr load. The 147+P was firm, but pleasant. If I have a chance to shoot some of the standard pressure stuff the recoil will probably be slightly less and more pleasant, which is probably one of the reasons why the 147 HST has become so popular. To me, it is pretty obvious that not all ammo is loaded the same and some of the 9mm stuff is loaded light.

As for the .40 loads, the 180s produced the least amount of perceived recoil, though not by much. The 165's were the hardest hitting and the 135 split the difference. Here is where I throw a wrench into this. To me (maybe not you) the recoil of the 124 NATO and 124+P felt the same as the 180gr and 165gr .40s, respectively. I didn't have a timer and didn't measure splits or anything, but I don't think the 9mm would have been any "faster" using those 124gr loads. Running the standard pressure HST might change that observation.

In my opinion, a lot of people praise the low recoil of the 9mm based on experience with light range loads, which probably won't be in your gun when the chips are down. I don't have a dog in this fight. I think they're all pretty much the same, yet try to find any reason I can to switch everything to 9mm. I think 9mm has a lot of benefits, but I don't in my own humble, non-scientific opinion think reduced recoil over the .40 is one of them, not when actual "duty" loads are compared. I'll do this with the standard pressure stuff and see if my opinion changes.

[Trooper224]

I carry 124 grain +P Gold Dots in my 9mm's and the 165 Golden Sabre in my issued .40. My handloads in the 9mm are ballistic duplicates of the GD loads. No light range loads here. When using equivalent guns in the two respective rounds, the lesser recoil of the 9mm allows me to put more rounds on target faster. I'm hardly recoil sensitive, but I can't deny the physics of the situation. If you're happy with the .40, rock on. It will certainly get the job done, but there are valid reasons for dropping in the favor of the 9mm.

[HCM]

I used to go a long with the 9mm has less recoil argument. I got a chronograph last Christmas. In my completely unscientific testing I found the 9mm to only recoil less than .40 when it was loaded with fairly anemic 115gr ammo. My results and observations: (Guns used: HK P2000 9x19; Glock 23)

115gr Perfecta FMJ: 1118fps
115gr Winchester SXZ JHP: 1138fps
Those loads were creampuffs. Recoil impulse was the same as any FMJ you'd find at the store: UMC, WWB, Blazer, etc. They were easy to shoot fast. I honestly didn't even notice the recoil.

124gr+P HST: 1171fps
124gr FMJ Winchester NATO: 1138fps
Recoil was substantially greater from these loads than the 115gr loads. The HST slightly greater than the ball load.

147gr+P HST: 1001fps
I found this load to recoil in between the 115s and 124s. Manageble, but you knew it was there.

165gr HST: 1108fps
165gr PDX1: 1123fps
These loads were pretty stout.

135gr HST: 1193fps
This load recoiled a lot harder than I thought it would. It wasn't as heavy as the 165s but it wasn't light.

180gr HST: 1018fps
180gr WWB FMJ: 939fps
180gr TAP XTP: 946fps
These loads all produced nearly identical recoil. The HST being just a tad more pronounced. The WWB and TAP loads were identical, I would never be able to tell them apart.

While this was a completely unscientific "experiment" I took a few things away from it. I know that when I'm throwing the bucks down for ammo I'm typically buying the cheapest decent quality stuff I can. Perfecta, WWB, Blazer, Fed Champion etc is probably going to be what I buy unless I find a good online deal. For myself and most people, in 9mm that means light 115gr loads. I really think the 9mm developed, gained, however you want to say it, a reputation for being "soft shooting" from light loads like the ones I measured. The 124+P HST and 124 NATO were loaded much "hotter", as evidenced by their velocity numbers, not only being higher, but actually being close to the list velocity. I found their perceived recoil to be much greater than either 115gr load. The 147+P was firm, but pleasant. If I have a chance to shoot some of the standard pressure stuff the recoil will probably be slightly less and more pleasant, which is probably one of the reasons why the 147 HST has become so popular. To me, it is pretty obvious that not all ammo is loaded the same and some of the 9mm stuff is loaded light.

As for the .40 loads, the 180s produced the least amount of perceived recoil, though not by much. The 165's were the hardest hitting and the 135 split the difference. Here is where I throw a wrench into this. To me (maybe not you) the recoil of the 124 NATO and 124+P felt the same as the 180gr and 165gr .40s, respectively. I didn't have a timer and didn't measure splits or anything, but I don't think the 9mm would have been any "faster" using those 124gr loads. Running the standard pressure HST might change that observation.

In my opinion, a lot of people praise the low recoil of the 9mm based on experience with light range loads, which probably won't be in your gun when the chips are down. I don't have a dog in this fight. I think they're all pretty much the same, yet try to find any reason I can to switch everything to 9mm. I think 9mm has a lot of benefits, but I don't in my own humble, non-scientific opinion think reduced recoil over the .40 is one of them, not when actual "duty" loads are compared. I'll do this with the standard pressure stuff and see if my opinion changes.

You are going by “feel” which is completely subjective and you used two complexly different pistols with different felt recoil characteristics.

My agency issued 40 for the last 22 years and has allowed optional personal 9mm for the last 12 years.

Shooting otherwise identical guns like Glock 19/23: 17/22 or 34/35 or HK USPC 9/40 there is a noticeable difference in felt recoil between our current issue 180 grain HST 40 and the 124 grain +p Gold Dot. More importantly there is a measurable difference in time when shooting multi shot drills. Not a tremendous difference for me but it’s there, it’s real, and it’s consistent.

There is also a noticeable and measurable difference between the 180 HST and our prior stupid hot 155 grain ammo.

[Hot Cereal]

You are going by “feel” which is completely subjective and you used two complexly different pistols with different felt recoil characteristics.

My agency issued 40 for the last 22 years and has allowed optional personal 9mm for the last 12 years.

Shooting otherwise identical guns like Glock 19/23: 17/22 or 34/35 or HK USPC 9/40 there is a noticeable difference in felt recoil between our current issue 180 grain HST 40 and the 124 grain +p Gold Dot. More importantly there is a measurable difference in time when shooting multi shot drills. Not a tremendous difference for me but it’s there, it’s real, and it’s consistent.

There is also a noticeable and measurable difference between the 180 HST and our prior stupid hot 155 grain ammo.

The two guns aren't the same, yes, but they're similar in size. If I buy a 9mm conversion barrel for the 23 it will be a better comparison. I did go by feel, which is subjective, but in reality that is what counts for me, not some recoil formula. Now, what would be great, and possibly even scientific, is a blind test. Take two identical pistols: 17/22; 19/23, load them with a given load and then ask a test subject to pick up the pistol and fire 10 rounds as fast as possible into a 6 inch circle at 5 yards or something. Don't tell them what they're shooting, don't let them eject loaded magazines or pick up brass. Then get their raw observation and feel, along with some data from their split times/accuracy scores.

ETA: I also shot the 9mm loads through a G17, but didn't include it in my original post because it was a full size pistol. I carried a G22 on duty for 5 years, issued 180 Ranger T. The recoil on the 124+P HST was very similar to what I remember the 180 Ranger T to be, yet slightly less. Both were "snappy". I think the perception of "recoil" from .40 and +P 9mm loads is actually an increase of slide velocity, which makes it feel "snappy" but I don't have any data to back that opinion up.

[JonInWA]

Another factor to consider is the gun; using identical .40 ammunition, I can fire faster and at least equally (if not more) accurately with my HK VP40 compared to my Glock Gen4 G22. Doesn't mean that the G22 is a "bad" gun, or that I plan on getting rid of it, but is was interesting to observe. HK spent a lot of time on the VP ergos, and on determining the slide mass necessary to adequately handle the .40 cartridge; the shooter accrues benefits from both.

Best, Jon

[HCM]

The two guns aren't the same, yes, but they're similar in size. If I buy a 9mm conversion barrel for the 23 it will be a better comparison. I did go by feel, which is subjective, but in reality that is what counts for me, not some recoil formula. Now, what would be great, and possibly even scientific, is a blind test. Take two identical pistols: 17/22; 19/23, load them with a given load and then ask a test subject to pick up the pistol and fire 10 rounds as fast as possible into a 6 inch circle at 5 yards or something. Don't tell them what they're shooting, don't let them eject loaded magazines or pick up brass. Then get their raw observation and feel, along with some data from their split times/accuracy scores.

ETA: I also shot the 9mm loads through a G17, but didn't include it in my original post because it was a full size pistol. I carried a G22 on duty for 5 years, issued 180 Ranger T. The recoil on the 124+P HST was very similar to what I remember the 180 Ranger T to be, yet slightly less. Both were "snappy". I think the perception of "recoil" from .40 and +P 9mm loads is actually an increase of slide velocity, which makes it feel "snappy" but I don't have any data to back that opinion up.

In practical terms the penalty for recoil in operational use is increased shot to shot recovery time.

For example If I need to shoot two or three opponents I can do so faster with 9mm than with the .40.

When I was considering switching from issued 40 cal P229 To POW G17 I ran Bill drills, the FAST, body armor / failure drills and some multiple target drills with the 229 in 40, the same gun with a 9mm conversion barrel, and a G22 and G17. The timer doesn’t lie.

Different guns have different recoil impulses. Recoil spring strength and polymer frame material type makes a difference. While the HK and the Glock are both “plastic” guns the Glock polymer is softer and flexes more that the HK polymer. You can actually fell the difference in recoil between the Gen4 Glock 22 and earlier Gen.

Memory can lie. For 8 years I carried an issued HK USP Compact LEM .40 cal with our issued 155 grain ammunition. At the time it was “normal.” However after years of shooting 9mm Glocks and 180 grain 40 out of an all metal P229, I shot 200 rounds of our old 155 grain through my personal HK USPC. It was not like I remembered and was kind of unpleasant to shoot. The gun and ammo didn’t change, but I did. The real test would be to put it on a timer with an identical 9mm.


During agency testing our national armory staff graphed the pressure curve of various duty loads. Basically, if you look at the pressure graph of a .45 it looks like a low hill, as the pressure is not only lower but spread out over a longer period of time. The 9mm looks like a classic “bell curve” while the .40 and .357 SIG graphs look like a spike on an EKG.

Todd Louis Green, the late founder of PF wrote an excellent article on why “Feelings lie.” https://pistol-training.com/archives/5108

[DocGKR]

TLG's comments are right on--I miss his cogent insight and intellect!


"Now, what would be great, and possibly even scientific, is a blind test. Take two identical pistols: 17/22; 19/23, load them with a given load and then ask a test subject to pick up the pistol and fire 10 rounds as fast as possible into a 6 inch circle at 5 yards or something. Don't tell them what they're shooting, don't let them eject loaded magazines or pick up brass. Then get their raw observation and feel, along with some data from their split times/accuracy scores."

This has been done.............many times by different entities, organizations, and units; 9 mm beats 357 Sig, .40 S&W, .45 GAP, .45 Auto every time when measuring shot splits and rapid fire accuracy--you can't beat physics.

[Baldanders]

In practical terms the penalty for recoil in operational use is increased shot to shot recovery time.

For example If I need to shoot two or three opponents I can do so faster with 9mm than with the .40.

When I was considering switching from issued 40 cal P229 To POW G17 I ran Bill drills, the FAST, body armor / failure drills and some multiple target drills with the 229 in 40, the same gun with a 9mm conversion barrel, and a G22 and G17. The timer doesn’t lie.

Different guns have different recoil impulses. Recoil spring strength and polymer frame material type makes a difference. While the HK and the Glock are both “plastic” guns the Glock polymer is softer and flexes more that the HK polymer. You can actually fell the difference in recoil between the Gen4 Glock 22 and earlier Gen.

Memory can lie. For 8 years I carried an issued HK USP Compact LEM .40 cal with our issued 155 grain ammunition. At the time it was “normal.” However after years of shooting 9mm Glocks and 180 grain 40 out of an all metal P229, I shot 200 rounds of our old 155 grain through my personal HK USPC. It was not like I remembered and was kind of unpleasant to shoot. The gun and ammo didn’t change, but I did. The real test would be to put it on a timer with an identical 9mm.


During agency testing our national armory staff graphed the pressure curve of various duty loads. Basically, if you look at the pressure graph of a .45 it looks like a low hill, as the pressure is not only lower but spread out over a longer period of time. The 9mm looks like a classic “bell curve” while the .40 and .357 SIG graphs look like a spike on an EKG.

Todd Louis Green, the late founder of PF wrote an excellent article on why “Feelings lie.” https://pistol-training.com/archives/5108

Having just bought a shot timer, I would say feelings are guilty until proven innocent in the court of empirical data.

In the interest of idle and useless speculation, would a "10mm lite" load likely have less recoil than a ballistically identical(heck, let's assume same powder type) .40 load fired from the same 1911 with a barrel switch? Is there much pressure difference?

It seems intuitive to me that a higher pressure spike would lead to sharper felt recoil, but I can't really explain why in terms of physics. Is it basically about velocity of expanding gasses? Anyone got a link to an article that explains this sort of felt recoil minutia?

[MDFA]

Here's my experience with the .40. In 1995 my agency converted from 9mm S&W 6906 to the first Gen Glock 22 .40 at my recommendation. I was the head firearms instructor at the time. During a Blackwater class the trigger pin and trigger spring broke in my pistol, we shot 2500 rounds in 5 days in that class. I'm not recoil sensitive but I was done shooting for a few days anyway after 2500 rds.

I had to repair a couple of our guns for similar parts breakage over the years. After around 15 years we changed over to Gen 3 M22, and did the RSA replacement soon after getting them. About a year before I retired in 2016 our new Chief asked me about changing over to 9mm, which I was in favor of. The previous Chief would not entertain the idea when I brought it up.... no surprise.... they are now converting over to 9mm.....

For what it's worth I agree as others have said. The .40 is a good round, but I don't think it brings anything to the table that isn't answered by quality 9mm now. The pros just don't out weigh the cons for most people... If you shoot it well and it makes you happy march on...

That being said my duty gun that I received upon retirement will be converted to 9mm or sit in the safe as I carry a M19.

Be Safe

[the Schwartz]

Tiro Fijo:

Is the US Army also currently using damage based metrics? Not Big Army

No more "computer man" calculations based on % hit probability, hit location, bullet energy, etc.? Nope--ORCA and its offspring are sadly very much alive in Big Army.

Is the gel standard the same as FBI, or still 20% gelatin, or whatever? Bizarrely, Big Army still clings to 20% gel.....and often fails to use standard, agreed upon ammo test protocols (ex. XM17 ammo testing).

Good morning, Doc.

Can you expand please on your commentary regarding ORCA and its offspring?

At your convenience, I would really value hearing what you see as being the issue/problem/shortcoming with those approaches.

[JHC]

So how important are splits to contextual gunfighting where decisions and problem solving to hit the grapefruit rear their heads? Spoiler alert: not very. ;) (re about a handful of good threads over the last year/ 18 mos)

Now economics and less than serious pistoleros is a big deal.

[LSW]

I have both M&P 40 and M&P 9mm platforms. I have run them both on bill drills back to back. I find that accuracy and speed increase by about 10% with the 9mm on bill drills @ 10 yards, both using 147/180 HST duty ammo.

Interestingly I ran them back to back on the IDPA (yeah yeah yeah) classifier a few times as well and found that my scores were no different, even scoring slightly better a few times with the .40. In that game it isn't unheard of for the grease ring of the wider bullet to give you a 5 point swing. I am an average to poor competitive shooter (expert IDPA CCP because I have practiced the classifier 100x, probably D class USPSA though if I ever shot enough classifiers to actually find out).

Anyhow, if terminal ballistics are truly equivalent now, I guess there is no reason not to use 9mm and get a few extra rounds in the mag while saving a few bucks in the process. I am presently debating whether to carry .40 again pending a move to Alaska where heavy winter clothing and moose confrontations are common though. I read through the previous pages discussing this and realize I could just stick wit the 9mm. I can't even give away my .40 cal pistols these days. Nobody wants them.

[DocGKR]

Many .40's run great with a 9 mm conversion barrel....

[Bucky]

I may have already posted this, but .40S&W is still the cheapest and most low-effort way to make major power factor in USPSA with factory ammo.

True, but you’ll usually be running quite a bit above major, especially with the reduction of major from 175 power factor to 165 power factor.

The popularity of .40 in USPSA is dictated by the rules. It gives you the highest capacity in a limited gun, while still making major power factor. If they ever lift the minimum .40 diameter rule in Limited, I’m sure you’ll see a huge rush to 9mm just to get those 2 extra rounds. Of course, it’ll be difficult finding factory ammo for that need.

Back on target, pun intended, I’m a big fan of the .40, but 9mm is certainly the better choice as a general issue round. I carried a USPc .40 for a decent stretch. I moved away from it when my wife shot it and HATED it. My wife is a pretty decent shooter, but it hurt too much for her to be any good with it. Since I see my wife use of the gun a real scenario, my carry gun choice needs to take her usage into consideration

[JonInWA]

Bucky, FWIW, I find the HK VP40 exceptionally pleasant to shoot, due to the combination of its exceptional ergonomics and heavy slide. Nice triggerpull too. I throw that out as a consideration if you'd like a .40 HK that I think your wife also might be amenable to.

Best, Jon

[Bucky]

Bucky, FWIW, I find the HK VP40 exceptionally pleasant to shoot, due to the combination of its exceptional ergonomics and heavy slide. Nice triggerpull too. I throw that out as a consideration if you'd like a .40 HK that I think your wife also might be amenable to.

Best, Jon

Thank you for the suggestion. I have a VP9 that I'm luke warm about, so no desire to get a .40. I also think the VP full size pistol is a little to big for CCW, for me. I like the "compact class" size (G19 / USPc / 92 Compact) guns for concealed carry.

If I were looking towards another polymer .40, I'd probably consider the APX series (love my full size APX 9mm, much more than my VP9). That said, I've been smitten with my EDC X9 since I've got it, so not really looking for a new CCW at the moment.

Thanks,
~Bucky

[JHC]

That said, I've been smitten with my EDC X9 since I've got it, so not really looking for a new CCW at the moment.

Thanks,
~Bucky

I think it would be a great idea if you started a thread about shooting the EDC X9. While there's been some reviews of members, it's proportionally rather little.

Whaddya say? 😉
Or add to thread in a necropost?

[Bucky]

I think it would be a great idea if you started a thread about shooting the EDC X9. While there's been some reviews of members, it's proportionally rather little.

Whaddya say? 😉
Or add to thread in a necropost?

I did do the size comparison thread, maybe expand it to a shooting comparison. :)

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?32795-EDC-X9-versus-GLOCK-19-Size-comparisons

[JHC]

I did do the size comparison thread, maybe expand it to a shooting comparison. :)

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?32795-EDC-X9-versus-GLOCK-19-Size-comparisons

Shooting would be sweet candy!

[jtcarm]

but .38/.357 is very lightly stocked and seems to be on the way out.

Guess again. S&W J-frames are hugely popular. Kimber & Colt didn’t decide to start producing small-frame .38/.357s just to see if they could. I believe RIA introduced a carry revolver recently as well.

The difference in ammo availability is due to auto loaders being shot a whole lot more. People who buy small frame carry revolvers generally don’t shoot them much. Folks like myself and some other forum members I’ve met shoot our revolvers a LOT. But while I’m at the local indoor range completing a revolver super drill (18 rounds), there are probably ten times that many 9mm rounds (plus the same amount of .223s) sent down range.

I can’t speak much to cost since 95% of my shooting is handloads.

During the great ammo drought that followed the Newtown shooting, I noticed .40 S&W was about the only CF pistol ammo that was regularly in stock (I was on the lookout for .22 lr.)

To me, this indicates it is not a popular civilian round.

Maybe it will get popular, at least for a while, with all the cheap LE trade ins. I just bought a little-used G35 to try in USPSA limited.

[Buckeye63]

I'd say alot of experts buried the 10mm ....
The 40 S&W ain't going anywhere.....
Myself I have two Glock 23's and my EDC is a 27 .... and my carry ammo is Federal 180gr HST

[JonInWA]

I think that the .40 platforms that will flourish are those specifically designed to handle and mitigate it's recoil impulse from its quick, intensive pressure spike on firing. Also crucial is how they can concurrently provide durability. Personally, I'm most impressed with HK .40s (in my case, a VP40 and P30L V1 LEM) and Gen 4 Glocks (G22). HK's approach is to increase slide mass and/or incorporate a polymer buffer component to the RSA's flat-wire spring, Glock's has been to utilize a triple-nested progressive/variable RSA.

Best, Jon

[Galbraith]

.40 isn't going anywhere. In fact, I would not be surprised as firearms technology evolves that it makes a comeback in some fashion. It really depends on what firearm is running the cartridge as whether the cartridge becomes desireable to the shooter. It's got a great projectile design which is very robust and expands reliably, and it has the velocity to punch through a wide variety of barriers. I did find it finicky to reload due to the small case capacity, and pressure spikes. I have never encountered a caliber that was so prone to keyholing and accuracy issues as when loading 180gr plated bullets on the .40S&W, especially 180gr Gold Dots. This was from two different Sig P229 barrels. 10mm Auto definately manages the pressure curve better, and was far easier to load for in a wide variety of bullet weights. Personally, I prefer the .45acp/10mm length action for running anything .40" caliber and up as the loading characteristics are easier to manage, and thus recoil and accuracy is better.

[Bucky]

.40 isn't going anywhere. In fact, I would not be surprised as firearms technology evolves that it makes a comeback in some fashion. It really depends on what firearm is running the cartridge as whether the cartridge becomes desireable to the shooter. It's got a great projectile design which is very robust and expands reliably, and it has the velocity to punch through a wide variety of barriers. I did find it finicky to reload due to the small case capacity, and pressure spikes. I have never encountered a caliber that was so prone to keyholing and accuracy issues as when loading 180gr plated bullets on the .40S&W, especially 180gr Gold Dots. This was from two different Sig P229 barrels. 10mm Auto definately manages the pressure curve better, and was far easier to load for in a wide variety of bullet weights. Personally, I prefer the .45acp/10mm length action for running anything .40" caliber and up as the loading characteristics are easier to manage, and thus recoil and accuracy is better.

I agree, especially to the which gun part. Guns that we're designed as .40s (P229, USP, PX4, etc) are better platforms than up scaled 9mms (GLOCK, Beretta 96, etc) IMHO.

[JBP55]

.40 isn't going anywhere. In fact, I would not be surprised as firearms technology evolves that it makes a comeback in some fashion. It really depends on what firearm is running the cartridge as whether the cartridge becomes desireable to the shooter.

I do not think the .40 will ever become as popular as it was at its peak of several years ago.

[richiecotite]

40 will never be as popular as I was a few years ago. That doesn’t mean it’s on its way out any more than 38 and .357 are on their way out.

The fact that all those police trade in guns from the last 20 years means there are hundreds of thousands in the wild. I imagine most of those police trade in guns will be shot a few tomes a year.

If anything, I see the 40 and all these police trade in guns the same way people saw 38 and model 10’s a dozen years ago.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[TiroFijo]

Regarding the 40, check this... new gun for PMESP – Polícia Militar do Estado de São Paulo (São Paulo State Military Police), Brazil.

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2018/10/16/glock-g22-gen5-acceptance-tests-in-brazil-by-pmesp-full-videos/

It's a G22 Gen5 with thumb safety identical to MHS pistol, and thicker slide (like that of a 45 GAP, more mass) to better handle the 40 recoil impulse.

[El Cid]

There will always be shooters who keep a 40 caliber weapon around and shoot with it. Just like people keep other by-gone calibers like .327 or .32ACP. But as long as the 40S&W does the same thing to a bad guy as 9mm there’s no logical reason to choose the caliber that is harder on guns and parts, harder to control, and harder to shoot well. I believe 40 is dead as a service caliber. It may limp on for years the way some people and agencies keep 45 because they can’t let go psychologically.

[JBP55]

Regarding the 40, check this... new gun for PMESP – Polícia Militar do Estado de São Paulo (São Paulo State Military Police), Brazil.

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2018/10/16/glock-g22-gen5-acceptance-tests-in-brazil-by-pmesp-full-videos/

It's a G22 Gen5 with thumb safety identical to MHS pistol, and thicker slide (like that of a 45 GAP, more mass) to better handle the 40 recoil impulse.

Old News.

[TiroFijo]

Sorry boss...

[Baldanders]

Guess again. S&W J-frames are hugely popular. Kimber & Colt didn’t decide to start producing small-frame .38/.357s just to see if they could. I believe RIA introduced a carry revolver recently as well.



Should have placed some "quotes" around that or some other signifier...as a revolver man who often carries a 640 pro, I hardly think .38/.357 is dying. But it seems to sell fairly poorly at Wally World compared to .40 in my neck of the woods.

When I see gun articles talk about "cheap .38 target ammo" I feel like they are talking about a past now gone.

.40 is popular enough around here that the local convience store used to stock it, along with .30-30, .243, .308 and .30-06.
NC shooters seem fond of .40, and .357Sig to a lesser extent. I think .40 is still issued by a lot of LE here.

[Galbraith]

It may limp on for years the way some people and agencies keep 45 because they can’t let go psychologically.

I have spent the last decade running mostly 9mm DA/SA Sigs, and have actually switched back to .45 for duty carry. It all depends on the platform, and what caliber runs best for the shooter in that platform. For me, I run the full sized P320 in .45 better than I do in a full sized P320 9mm from FAST drills at 7rds, to bullseye shots at 50yrds. Logically that doesn't make sense, but the .45 version has a heavier slide and the ergos are superior for my hands enabling for better control for single and two handed shots. At least in full sized P320s my scoring is always better in .45 than 9mm. When the guns get smaller though I tend to favor 9mm as the .45 mag capacity dwindles exponentially, and the muzzle blast and stress on the shorter slides diminishes returns.

[El Cid]

I’m putting this here to avoid derailing the APX thread even further.



This is pretty much how I feel about it, I usually only consider 9mm as the best choice for smaller pistols that are either sub-compact or single stack. I think the main problem with people regarding the .40 is they tend to focus only on the recoil, rather than the shooting fundamentals. My first pistol was an FNP-40, chambered in .40 obviously, nobody informed me as to the abhorrant recoil it had and I really liked the way it shot.

Of course, the muzzle would jump when it was fired, but it came right back down quickly and leveled for the next shot... there was no painful abuse. What I really don't understand about the complaints of the .40 recoil is the fact that you can often get .22 trainers or at least a 9mm version if that is not available. Then you can benefit from the cheap and softer shooting ammo while shooting pretty much the same pistol.
Unfortunately the science doesn’t agree with you. Whatever your 40 caliber pistol can do the same gun in 9mm does as well or better. None of the shooters (LE, military, or private citizens) I know who switched to 9mm were unable to handle 40. They just want the best option for self protection.



Now, I also do feel that many people fire .40 S&W through inappropriate platforms that don't handle the cartridge well. I would wager most of the detractors were shooting it through Glock or some type of concealed carry (sub or single stack) and never bothered to go further down the rabbit hole and just ran back to 9mm crying foul play. I don't have a reference for this but I believe the director of the FBI who made the policy change to .40, still carries the .40 personally.

I wish I had reference for it, but I didn't think to save where I found it. If this is true, it is saying a lot in my opinion. We live in a lowest common denominator society, where mediocrity is the standard and anything that even the most feeble (mentally and physically) cannot use will be discarded. So here we are, 9mm re-enters the world of law enforcement with about as much fanfare as the .40 came along with.

Um... what? I’d bet a weeks pay neither the current director nor the guy in charge when the switch was made ever carried a gun. Neither had badges or credentials either. They have agents assigned to protect them. Those agents carried a G21SF for years. Now they carry 9mm Glocks. And if Comey does carry a 40, so what? He knows next to nothing about ballistics.

Lowest common denominator? Mediocrity? Lol!! I recommend you spend more time researching terminal ballistics and less time typing tired folklore and urban legends about your favorite caliber. But then perhaps you have millions of dollars and years of research and data you forgot to provide that says the experts are wrong?

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

I’m putting this here to avoid derailing the APX thread even further.

Mine In Bold

Unfortunately the science doesn’t agree with you. Whatever your 40 caliber pistol can do the same gun in 9mm does as well or better. None of the shooters (LE, military, or private citizens) I know who switched to 9mm were unable to handle 40. They just want the best option for self protection.

9mm will not reliably crush bone and keep going in a straight line, if it happens it is certainly an outlier rather than the norm

Um... what? I’d bet a weeks pay neither the current director nor the guy in charge when the switch was made ever carried a gun. Neither had badges or credentials either. They have agents assigned to protect them. Those agents carried a G21SF for years. Now they carry 9mm Glocks. And if Comey does carry a 40, so what? He knows next to nothing about ballistics.

It really does mean little without a citation to reference, but assuming he did I would say it means that the he feels the right choice for him isn't necessarily the choice he equips agents with

Lowest common denominator? Mediocrity? Lol!! I recommend you spend more time researching terminal ballistics and less time typing tired folklore and urban legends about your favorite caliber. But then perhaps you have millions of dollars and years of research and data you forgot to provide that says the experts are wrong?

Ballistics science is still not perfect and is quite complex, the fact that bone is left out of the mix is a major problem to my way of thinking. In my opinion, hunters who shoot critters with all sorts of loads and angles have about as much a case for choosing caliber as an agency spending millions to shoot jell-o blocks but as always YMMV.

Perhaps this will be disregarded as irrelevant because it does not have an agency name or official credential attached to it, but I find it to be quite a different view of ballistics from somebody who sees it in the daily life in the morgue, whether or not this person is legitimate the views referenced make a lot of sense to my thinking.

http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal%20Ballistics%20as%20viewed%20in%20a%20mor gue.htm

[Trooper224]

I spent the last half of my career in LE being issued a .40, until the last few months when we switched to 9mm. The first half of my career was dominated by the .45acp, in both on and off duty roles, with it all starting out with the .357 Magnum, then the proverbial finger of God. Five years ago I switched to the 9mm for all of my personal needs. On my current job I'm again toting a .40. Between five years in the military and nearly thirty years in law enforcement, I've seen my share of people have their meat sacks perforated. All of this convinced me of one salient point: it doesn't make one damned bit of difference regarding service pistol calibers. Where it lands is far more important than a few millimeters one way or another. When I was a young fire eater and a devotee of the mighty half ninety, I failed to catch on to the fact that a lot of the high speed people I knew were more than satisfied with their anemic .380 long rifle pistols. Maybe they knew something I didn't? It took me a long time to catch up.

If you just can't imagine carrying anything that doesn't start with four than by all means do so. It will get the job done. But, anecdotes from the stone knives and bear skins era, as well as voodoo science don't mean you're right. I've stopped trying to discuss the topic unless I'm forced into it. No matter how much objective data one presents, some people just won't let their sacred cow off the leash.

Regarding the future of the .40 S&W: I used to spend time sorting through the brass on the range, to cull all the .40 cases from my .45 or 9mm cases. I rarely have to do that anymore. The 9mm is by far the dominant pistol round I see on the range, as well as in LE use.

[Malamute]

http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal%20Ballistics%20as%20viewed%20in%20a%20mor gue.htm[/B]

I usually stay out of these discussions, and someone with better recall or knowledge can tell me to get back in my lane, but I believe that person was outed as a fraud, and the piece was a work of fiction.

[HCM]

Ballistics science is still not perfect and is quite complex, the fact that bone is left out of the mix is a major problem to my way of thinking. In my opinion, hunters who shoot critters with all sorts of loads and angles have about as much a case for choosing caliber as an agency spending millions to shoot jell-o blocks but as always YMMV.

Perhaps this will be disregarded as irrelevant because it does not have an agency name or official credential attached to it, but I find it to be quite a different view of ballistics from somebody who sees it in the daily life in the morgue, whether or not this person is legitimate the views referenced make a lot of sense to my thinking.

http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal%20Ballistics%20as%20viewed%20in%20a%20mor gue.htm

Speaking of hunters, former Kenyan Professional Hunter and American Rifleman editor Finn Aagaard summed up his thoughts on terminal ballistics for hunting as: “Shot Placement is 90% of killing power.”

Similarly, Vietnam combat vet and retired NYPD Sgt / multiple shootout vet Pat Rogers observed that the NYPD’s often maligned 158 grain +p solid LSWC “worked pretty good if you can shoot.”

Having seen multiple people shot over the last 24 years most with 9mm, .40 and 5.56, and thousands of LE shooters / trainees, the above sentiments match my experience.

Does 40 work? Yes. But it does so at greater financial cost and performance cost. Regardless of the skill level, empirical studies of LE shooters show increases in performance with 9mm vs .40.

Is there any meaningful difference between the performance of common service calibers with modern (barrier blind) duty carry ammunition ? No. Bone is just like any other intermediate barrier.

As such what ever let’s my people maximize hit potential on vital structures is the best choice.

Prior to bonded / barrier blind bullets becoming the standard, the additional mass of .40 gave it an advantage in staying together through intermediate barriers with expanding bullets. There was a time 9mm shooters had to choose between adequate penetration and expansion. Those days are over. The future is now.

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

I usually stay out of these discussions, and someone with better recall or knowledge can tell me to get back in my lane, but I believe that person was outed as a fraud, and the piece was a work of fiction.

Interesting, would love to see the reference as I will no longer reference this if it is not factual.

[TGS]

[B]Ballistics science is still not perfect and is quite complex, the fact that bone is left out of the mix is a major problem to my way of thinking. In my opinion, hunters who shoot critters with all sorts of loads and angles have about as much a case for choosing caliber as an agency spending millions to shoot jell-o blocks but as always YMMV.


Rounds that do well in testing on intermediate barriers, especially the glass test, often perform admirably in actual shootings.

It's not "the fact that bone is left out of the mix", it's that you're not paying attention to what tests are most important and most telling.

[Malamute]

Interesting, would love to see the reference as I will no longer reference this if it is not factual.


Its been mentioned here on at least one occasion if not more. I believe DocGKR has brought it up, or someone else familiar with the wound ballistics study community and LE community. In short, it made people curious who it was, as a place with that level of homicides would be known to people in that line of work, and upon some looking into it, it was figured out who it was that wrote it, and they were not who and what they said they were.