Hunting Rifle Questions

[okie john]

Thanks to GJM, SLG, and secondstoryguy for your comments on Kimber rifles in another thread.

I’m just getting back on my feet after a divorce, and I’m looking for a couple of hunting rifles. I was considering the Montana in 308, but it's now off the list.

For game, let’s say deer, hogs, elk, bear, pronghorns, aoudad, caribou, and moose in that order. I probably won’t hunt sheep, mountain goats, brown bear, bison, or musk oxen. I hunted open country as a kid, but since I got out of the Army 23 years ago, I’ve focused on the Pacific Northwest, plus some in Hawaii and on the Edwards Plateau in Texas. In that time, all of my shots have been within 150 yards, many within 150 feet. In the coming years, I may hunt in South Carolina, east Texas, and Louisiana. There may be a trip to Africa for plains game up to eland later—much, much later.

Right now I’m thinking of two rifles. I’d like to have at least one of them chambered for a cartridge I can buy anywhere, like the 270, 308, or 30/06. The other can be something larger, or a duplicate of the first one. I don’t see much point in having rifles for two nearly identical cartridges like the 270 and 30/06.

Both rifles will have identical stocks, actions, optics, etc., and I have my preferences on those.

Right now I’m thinking of either a 30/06 and a 9.3x62, or a pair of 30/06’s. I’ve been shooting, hunting with, and loading for the 30/06 for a couple of decades, and the 9.3 for about five years, so I have a fair idea of how they behave. I reload, but I’m not interested in wildcats or specialty loads for these two rifles.

I’m thinking of 22” barrels for both rifles but am willing to be persuaded otherwise. I like CRF actions, which leads me to Model 70s or 98 Mausers. Then there’s the CZ 550 Composite Carbine, which conveniently comes in both calibers.

A few other things:
• Most of my hunts will be self-guided—there are probably very few airplanes or guides in my future.
• I fall asleep in tree stands, so all of my hunting is either still-hunting or spot-and-stalk.
• I have a torn rotator cuff in my right shoulder.
• I’ll shoot every week for several months before a hunt, and 9.3x62-level recoil (286 grains at 2,350 fps in a 9-pound rifle) is about all I can take for that much shooting.

What are your thoughts?

Thanks in advance,


Okie John

[GJM]

.06 and a 9.3x62 will do everything in North America and the world.

I would buy a new model 70 stainless synthetic featherweight complete or a pre-64 featherweight and lightly mod it.

On the 9.3x62, I would modify a pre 64 .06, or get a CZ or Sako (with the caveat that Bill Wilson's and my Sako rifles have had partially resolved issues extracting/ejecting 9.3x62, although they shoot moa).

[DocGKR]

Get a .30-06 M70 and be done with it. For hunting the lower 48 states, you don't need anything else.

[Hizzie]

Ruger did make the Hawkeye African in 9.3 for a while. You can have the nostalgia of the cartridge in a tradional express rifle.

[GJM]

All reports indicate that the 9.3x62 kills disproportionate to its size. Recoil is mild, and it is not belted, holding five down rounds in a standard action. Good Alaskan walking around rifle.

Bill-retta Wilson is a major 9.3x62 lover.

[okie john]

I has spectacular results with a CZ 550 American in 9.32x62 shooting feral cattle on a coffee plantation in Hawaii. The two that I remember most were mature animals. I hit #1 in the ribs on his right side with a 270-grain Speer soft point at about 2,300 fps. Range was 15-20 yards, offhand. There was a spray of blood on the far side of where he had been standing. To the left of the gun target line was a spray of liquid feces about 15 feet long. To the right of the gun target line was a shorter spray of snot. So along with pummeling his lungs, the bullet simultaneously knocked the sh*t and the snot out of him.

Animal #2 was a female. Range was about 80 yards, shot kneeling with a sling. I hit her just behind the shoulder with a 286-grain Nosler Partition at about 2,300 fps. She was standing broadside to me, and when the bullet hit she struggled to stay on her feet for a few seconds, then went straight down--literally dropping in her tracks. It was like when someone puts a weight marked "2,000 lbs" on a cartoon character's shoulders.

I shot several other cattle about the same size with a 30/06 on that trip, using Federal 180-grain Trophy Bonded and Remington 220-grain CoreLokt ammo. Everything I hit with either rifle died, but the ones I hit with the 9.3x62 died a LOT faster. None of them made it more than about 15 yards. Not so with the mighty 30/06: one big bull that I hit with the 180 TB escaped into the woods. A few minutes later, I heard wild pigs pull him down and eat him while he was still alive.

Recoil with both of the 9.3x62 loads was a little heaver than a 30/06, but more of a push than the kind of snap that you'd get with a 338 WM. There's a LOT to like about the 9.3x62. I think it was intended to be the African version of what the 30-30 was in North America. It definitely fills a sweet spot.


Okie John

[LHS]

I have one of those 9.3x62 Ruger Africans, and I love it. I'm taking it to Africa next year for plains game, and am thinking about shooting pigs this year. Dad's had phenomenal luck with his identical rifle in Africa, with one-shot stops on a Cape buff and zebra. With Barnes TSX projos, it's apparently a madman that kills all out of proportion to its recoil.

My Ruger shoots MOA @ 100y with my cheap hand loads (Prvi cases, 285gr Prvi JSPs, Winchester magnum rifle primers and Ramshot Big Game).

[JHC]

I have one of those 9.3x62 Ruger Africans, and I love it. I'm taking it to Africa next year for plains game, and am thinking about shooting pigs this year. Dad's had phenomenal luck with his identical rifle in Africa, with one-shot stops on a Cape buff and zebra. With Barnes TSX projos, it's apparently a madman that kills all out of proportion to its recoil.

My Ruger shoots MOA @ 100y with my cheap hand loads (Prvi cases, 285gr Prvi JSPs, Winchester magnum rifle primers and Ramshot Big Game).

Is this caliber tracking to mainstream you think? I didn't know it existed a few years ago and I see a lot of references to it showing up.

[Hizzie]

Blaser
Sauer
Merkel
Mauser (new production)
Sako
CZ

All have current models in 9.3x62.

[David S.]

How are the CZ 550's, quality wise?

[PTT]

Okie John,
I like this thread and have asked the same questions. For me, I've decided on Mauser actions, but I like the M70's as well. Great concept.

[GJM]

CZ rifles are like their pistols -- big, strong, heavy and in need of custom work to reach their potential. I have two .416 Rigby and one .458 Lott CZ based rifles.

[LSP552]

CZ rifles are like their pistols -- big, strong, heavy and in need of custom work to reach their potential. I have two .416 Rigby and one .458 Lott CZ based rifles.

Agree with this. My .375 H&H is a CZ and it's a beast, reliable but unrefined. My number one hunting rifle is a custom model 70 in .30-06.

[okie john]

Okie John,
I like this thread and have asked the same questions. For me, I've decided on Mauser actions, but I like the M70's as well. Great concept.
Glad to help, but it’s not my concept. The idea of the general purpose rifle was probably born about ten minutes after the idea of the rifle itself. This incarnation probably comes from Jack O’Connor as much as anyone.


Is this caliber tracking to mainstream you think? I didn't know it existed a few years ago and I see a lot of references to it showing up.
Midway has cheapo 9.3x62 Remington Core-Lokt ammo for about $40 per box. That’s pretty mainstream.


How are the CZ 550's, quality wise?
Herein lies the rub. As GJM pointed out, they’re borderline crude in execution. Mine was much heavier than I expected, which was nice because it soaked up recoil well. The stock was very thick throughout, and I felt that I’d be OK if I ever needed to beat down a door with it. It also had a genuine 1” Pachmayr recoil pad instead of the bogus hard rubber stock extension you find on a lot of guns, which was very nice.

In my rifle, CZ fiddled with the design somewhat. Earlier CZ’s kept the main spring in place on the firing pin with a knurled nut. But in an unannounced change, CZ replaced the knurled nut with a C-clip. The vibration of firing caused the C-clip to work its way down the firing pin, gradually lessening spring tension until the rifle failed to fire. I discovered this just as I had fired two shots and dropped two feral cattle. I cycled the bolt and got a click instead of a bang, which is every bit as loud as we’ve been led to believe. I couldn't figure out what was wrong, and had to finish the hunt with a Winchester 1895, which I despise. I had to lean on CZ USA to get them to make it right, but they went back to the old way and I’ve heard no more complaints about this issue.

Some people worry that the trigger is overly complex, and they may be right, but I never had problems with mine.


Okie John

[Malamute]

Okie John, your PM box is full.

[secondstoryguy]

I've eyed that little CZ550 Kevlar Carbine in 9.3X62 pretty hard. It seems like it would be a handy little rifle and it's nice that it already has irons mounted and a shorter barrel. The only reason I've resisted the temptation to buy is I've found .308/30-06 to do what I need it to do (this includes taking Moose, Elk, buffalo(american not cape), and Hog as well as numerous large exotics)and I tend to practice a lot more with them due to availability.

[Frank R]

Tikka T3 Hunter or Forest. Or, depending on how much you want to spend, the Sako which is the company that manufacturers the Tikka.

.30-06 will dispatch any of the game mentioned.

[LHS]

Is this caliber tracking to mainstream you think? I didn't know it existed a few years ago and I see a lot of references to it showing up.

I don't know if I'd go that far. It's still pretty rare in the US, if only because it's far more gun than 99% of American hunters need. Average Joe isn't going to go grab some arcane German safari cartridge to go hunt Bambi, and the 9.3x62 isn't exactly a long-range cartridge by any stretch of the imagination. It's good for its intended role, which was short-range (i.e. <200y) do-it-all-reasonably-well killing of African game for the German colonial farmer who can't afford multiple guns, much less a fine English double in a heavy caliber. In the US, it's the opposite. The 9.3 is a niche gun here, and while I think it's an excellent bear/moose/elk cartridge and certainly workable for deer in some situations, it'll never compete with the '06 as an all-around, do-anything North American cartridge. You don't need the 9.3's heavy bullet in the US other than in those niches, and so the '06 is a far more versatile choice, available in nearly identical-sized guns with the same magazine capacity.

The .375 H&H was developed specifically to compete with the 9.3x62mm, and surpassed it in popularity long ago, despite the lower magazine capacity and requirement for a magnum-length action. The 9.3 is still common and well-liked in Europe, but the US has different needs and different preferences, and I doubt the 9.3 in any form will become as ubiquitous as the .308 or '06. That said, seeing Hornady, Federal and Remington making factory loads is a great thing, and all the major projo makers offer good bullets (Swift A-Frame, Barnes TSX, etc).

For cheap practice fodder, I've stuck with Prvi Partizan. I'm re-using the cases with their projos for even cheaper practice fodder. When it's time for my safari, I'll use some of the once-fired cases I've hoarded along with some Barnes TSX projos and take them.

That said, I really do like it. It kicks like a heavy-bullet '06 and kills like a .375 H&H. I've been using it in the local safari matches (next one's on Sunday 29 March if anyone in the area is interested) and I've won the last three, mostly because I never have to reload on a 5-round stage and I'm shooting a gun/ammo combo capable of MOA accuracy and a 1-6x variable optic against dudes with 1880s-vintage black powder double rifles and iron sights.

[JHC]

I'm not much of a rifleman so with a pound of salt; super high velocity doesn't catch my eye. Longish rifle bullets plowing along about 2200-2300 do for some reason. Probably because of my affection for the .30-30.

[GJM]

I'm not much of a rifleman so with a pound of salt; super high velocity doesn't catch my eye. Longish rifle bullets plowing along about 2200-2300 do for some reason. Probably because of my affection for the .30-30.

The flip side is, for hunting in the mountains or on tundra, a .300WM or .270 Weatherby sure makes 300-400 yard shots easier.

[JHC]

The flip side is, for hunting in the mountains or on tundra, a .300WM or .270 Weatherby sure makes 300-400 yard shots easier.

Oh yeah I always got that. Far far from my world.

[okie john]

Thanks for the replies. I picked up a new M-70 FWT in 30/06 this morning. Details follow soonest.


Okie John

[okie john]

I took the new Model 70 apart yesterday, degreased and inspected it, and mounted a proven Leupold 4x with a 32mm bell in Weaver mounts for the check ride. During the inspection I noticed that the inletting is very neat and well finished. The recoil lug and tang are lightly glass bedded, and the barrel is free-floated, which are nice touches.

The bottom metal is aluminum, which has always been standard on Featherweights. The center screw of the older rifles is gone, and the trigger guard is no longer a separate piece. The magazine box is stamped, and all of these parts fit tightly into the action. All of this is as it should be.

Unfortunately, the trigger group is NOT the M-70 trigger group of yore, which is irritating. It’s very good--light and crisp with no take-up and no overtravel right out of the box--but it is NOT what I expected. Had I known the trigger group would be substantially different from the old M-70 version, I might not have bought this rifle. Also, the striker does not fall with the authority I expect from a Model 70, and there was one failure to fire with old ammo, which leads me to think there may be an extra-strength mainspring in my future. That said, I believe that FN knows what they’re doing, so I’m willing to give them the benefit of the doubt for a few hundred rounds before I consider replacing the trigger group.

I’ve been a 308 guy for years, and the only 30/06 ammo I had was two boxes of Remington 165-grain CoreLokt spitzers. I think my son may have carried it on a wet-weather hunting trip a few years ago, because when I opened the box I saw that crystals had begun growing on the lead forward of the jackets. Not the best ammo for a test, but that’s what I had, so into the range bag it went.

On the range, I fired two rounds to settle the scope and mounts, then shot it on paper at 50 yards. I got POI onto the X in three rounds—a testament to Leupold and Weaver—then moved to 100, where I fired this group:

http://i.imgur.com/z1eZUi5.jpg (http://imgur.com/z1eZUi5)

So eight rounds into its career, this rifle is shooting just over 1 MOA with somewhat dubious ammo.

I think I can live with that.


Okie John

[DocGKR]

Very nice!

[SLG]

The current M70's seem to be pretty consistent performers. Don't know how you were resting the rifle, but when I test the gun, I use greater magnification and 5 shot groups. My M70's all shoot around MOA, so I imagine yours is right in there with the rest of them. Nice rifle.

[JM Campbell]

Anyone else looking for a pre 64 30-06 there is one on M4carbine.net

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=166125

[David S.]

.........

[Drifting Fate]

Excellent choice, but weren't you looking for two rifles?

I concur with your first choice being a .30-06, but may I suggest the second being a 7mm Rem Mag?

[catatonic]

I personally went with a Tikka T3... Lots of people have had nothing but great things to say about the Tikka action. It's smooth as glass. Though you do lose the 3 position safety of the M70.

[okie john]

The current M70's seem to be pretty consistent performers. Don't know how you were resting the rifle, but when I test the gun, I use greater magnification and 5 shot groups. My M70's all shoot around MOA, so I imagine yours is right in there with the rest of them. Nice rifle.

Thanks. My club has good concrete benches with sandbags, so at least the basics were present. The problem is me: I don't like recoil and I don't like shooting off the bench, so I don't do it often and I'm not very good at it. Also, I don't own a scope with more than 4x magnification, so I'm kinda stuck there.

I hunt in very thick brush. In the last 23 years, I've taken one shot kneeling with a sling and the rest offhand, so I'm willing to use three-shot groups for zero and group size, then spend most of my time shooting offhand inside of 100 yards with a timer.

As for the rifle, I figured it would be about MOA with decent ammo, and I'm happy to see that it shot that well with cruddy ammo. I'll work up loads for it before long and the groups will probably get smaller. If not, it won't affect much--they're still really, really good.


Okie John

[okie john]

Excellent choice, but weren't you looking for two rifles?

I concur with your first choice being a .30-06, but may I suggest the second being a 7mm Rem Mag?

The 7 Mag is one of the great big-game cartridges, and my pair could easily be a 7 Mag and a 223 if I lived in open country. But I don't, so I have two reservations about the 7.

First, I hunt mostly in very thick brush. I’ve found that a light, scoped bolt action with a 22” barrel is as easy to carry and as fast on game as a lever gun, while the same rifle with a 24” barrel might as well be a flagpole. Unfortunately, a fast 7 deserves a barrel at least 24” long, and 26” is better. A 22” barrel turns it into a loud 270, which is no better than a 30/06. I suspect that a 130-grain TSX loaded hot in a 22" 30-06 would flatten the trajectory enough for open country, and I'd rather spend that money on ammo and range time.

The issue of range time brings me to my second point. Despite going by Okie John, I live in western Washington. There are very few places here where I can check POI beyond 200 yards and get meaningful practice estimating range and reading wind. As a result, I try to keep my shots within 200-250 yards, and I've been successful in that, even on spot-and-stalk hunts on the Edwards Plateau in Texas. Again, this would be different if I lived in open country, but I don’t.

I'm still pondering a second rifle, but I seriously doubt it will be a belted magnum unless I find a screaming deal on a 375.


Okie John

[okie john]

I personally went with a Tikka T3... Lots of people have had nothing but great things to say about the Tikka action. It's smooth as glass. Though you do lose the 3 position safety of the M70.

I checked out the Tikka at length but just couldn't warm up to it.


Okie John

[SLG]

The 7 Mag is one of the great big-game cartridges, and my pair could easily be a 7 Mag and a 223 if I lived in open country. But I don't, so I have two reservations about the 7.

First, I hunt mostly in very thick brush. I’ve found that a light, scoped bolt action with a 22” barrel is as easy to carry and as fast on game as a lever gun, while the same rifle with a 24” barrel might as well be a flagpole. Unfortunately, a fast 7 deserves a barrel at least 24” long, and 26” is better. A 22” barrel turns it into a loud 270, which is no better than a 30/06. I suspect that a 130-grain TSX loaded hot in a 22" 30-06 would flatten the trajectory enough for open country, and I'd rather spend that money on ammo and range time.

The issue of range time brings me to my second point. Despite going by Okie John, I live in western Washington. There are very few places here where I can check POI beyond 200 yards and get meaningful practice estimating range and reading wind. As a result, I try to keep my shots within 200-250 yards, and I've been successful in that, even on spot-and-stalk hunts on the Edwards Plateau in Texas. Again, this would be different if I lived in open country, but I don’t.

I'm still pondering a second rifle, but I seriously doubt it will be a belted magnum unless I find a screaming deal on a 375.


Okie John

OJ,

This will likely not meet your recoil happiness level, but even a 20" 3006 can shoot waay flatter when you skip those lightweight TSX bullets and go with a 208 Amax and R17. The BC on that rd outperforms all those light bullets by quite a bit. Of course, having hunted the vast open areas a bit, I still never took a shot past 275, and usually was within 100 yards by choice. Stalking is a good thing:-) To further muddy the issue, flat shooting is really not needed these days, (except for wind bucking ability, and there is always wind) since laser rangefinders mostly remove the uncertainty. Then you just dial for the shot. Not with a 4 power, of course;-)

Anyway, my only point here is that a 30-06 is possibly still the most versatile cartridge in existence. I do not believe that a 7mag will actually out perform the 06 on any game in NA.

[DocGKR]

Well said!

[GJM]

OJ,

This will likely not meet your recoil happiness level, but even a 20" 3006 can shoot waay flatter when you skip those lightweight TSX bullets and go with a 208 Amax and R17. The BC on that rd outperforms all those light bullets by quite a bit. Of course, having hunted the vast open areas a bit, I still never took a shot past 275, and usually was within 100 yards by choice. Stalking is a good thing:-) To further muddy the issue, flat shooting is really not needed these days, (except for wind bucking ability, and there is always wind) since laser rangefinders mostly remove the uncertainty. Then you just dial for the shot. Not with a 4 power, of course;-)

Anyway, my only point here is that a 30-06 is possibly still the most versatile cartridge in existence. I do not believe that a 7mag will actually out perform the 06 on any game in NA.

I have a slightly different take, although I do agree that .30-06 is a terrific and versatile cartridge. I have had the good fortune to have considerable experience hunting with .06 based rifles (primarily the .338-06) and .270 magnum class rifles (Weatherby and WSM). With the .06 class rifles, have harvested four bull moose, two elk and enough caribou that I have lost track of how many. Over a dozen elk and mule deer with the .270 WSM/Weatherby, interestingly, all one shot stops.


No quarrel on differences in killing ability between .06 and magnum .270 class cartridges. Modern bullets are so good, it seems like hit the vitals and the bullet works. My issue is placing that bullet, and my experience is that the flatter shooting magnums help in the 250-400 yard range where you either don't have time to use a range finder, or you have environmental conditions like fog or snow, where the range finder doesn't work. Where I have needed multiple shots, has been with the .06 based rifles, where getting the range wrong was a problem. Once in a blizzard on elk, where we thought the bull was 150 and he turned out to be 250 (rangefinder wouldn't work in th have snow and an outfitter made the range call), and another instance where I had a quick shot on an elk at 400, thought it was 300 yards, and got the top of the leg, leading to an eight hour tracking exercise.

As a result, I am almost exclusively hunting mule deer and elk with a .270 magnum, and have gravitated to the .300 WM in AK for moose and caribou.

Fun problems, lots of good choices in bullets and calibers these days.

[SLG]

Hence the mostly in my post. also, the difference in ranges that we shoot at, and the necessity, or lack there of, in speed of shooting. Hunting is too big a category to nail down in a short post.

[GJM]

Hence the mostly in my post. also, the difference in ranges that we shoot at, and the necessity, or lack there of, in speed of shooting. Hunting is too big a category to nail down in a short post.

Agreed -- interesting thread, and I am just trying to add to the conversation. For one rifle, one caliber, I can't think of a better choice than a .30-06. Think I first heard that from Jeff Cooper 25 years ago.

[okie john]

For a bunch of guys on a pistol forum, you sure know your rifles…

This will likely not meet your recoil happiness level, but even a 20" 3006 can shoot waay flatter when you skip those lightweight TSX bullets and go with a 208 Amax and R17.

I knew that but had forgotten it. Thank you for reminding me. I think I see some 200-grain bullets in my future.


No quarrel on differences in killing ability between .06 and magnum .270 class cartridges. Modern bullets are so good, it seems like hit the vitals and the bullet works. My issue is placing that bullet, and my experience is that the flatter shooting magnums help in the 250-400 yard range where you either don't have time to use a range finder, or you have environmental conditions like fog or snow, where the range finder doesn't work. Where I have needed multiple shots, has been with the .06 based rifles, where getting the range wrong was a problem. Once in a blizzard on elk, where we thought the bull was 150 and he turned out to be 250 (rangefinder wouldn't work in th have snow and an outfitter made the range call), and another instance where I had a quick shot on an elk at 400, thought it was 300 yards, and got the top of the leg, leading to an eight hour tracking exercise.

I hope to have the chance to experience these problems like these first-hand someday.

What scopes and barrel lengths do you prefer for your long-range rifles?


Okie John

[SLG]

Agreed -- interesting thread, and I am just trying to add to the conversation. For one rifle, one caliber, I can't think of a better choice than a .30-06. Think I first heard that from Jeff Cooper 25 years ago.

Wasn't arguing at all. You have shot way more animals than I have, and I've shot a fair number.

[SLG]

For a bunch of guys on a pistol forum, you sure know your rifles… "

Pistols are just easier to carry concealed...Rifles are part of man's natural state:-)


"What scopes and barrel lengths do you prefer for your long-range rifles?" Okie John


Totally depends on what the LR mission is. In general though, I prefer shorter than standard barrels. That means 20 and under for 308, 20 or so for 300WM (though I have a longer one that is the single most accurate rifle I have ever owned. 20" for 30-06. Really, I just like shorter barrels:-) The performance difference is not as great as some would have you believe, but then again, it depends what you are trying to accomplish.

Glass is easy. For any application where performance is the most important, NightForce is all I will use. There is other good stuff out there, but not much. Good viewing glass is pretty meaningless to me in the bigger picture. A scope that does what you tell it, everytime all the time, is way more valuable than any other consideration for LR shooting. The newest NF scopes give up nothing to anyone, in any category, as far as I'm concerned. The older NXS scopes are still better than almost anything else out there when you factor in fidelity and ruggedness.

[okie john]

OK, so here I am being all "no fast sevens for me, thanks" and what to my wondering eyes should appear but a lightweight custom pre-64 Model 70 in 270 Weatherby built by my favorite maker and set up exactly as it should be for long range hunting in mountainous terrain, for sale for about 25% of the build cost.

What do I need to know about the 270 WBY? Does it eat barrel throats? Pet loads? Good zero?

I might buy this rifle tomorrow, so school me tonight.

Thanks,


Okie John

[GJM]

OK, so here I am being all "no fast sevens for me, thanks" and what to my wondering eyes should appear but a lightweight custom pre-64 Model 70 in 270 Weatherby built by my favorite maker and set up exactly as it should be for long range hunting in mountainous terrain, for sale for about 25% of the build cost.

What do I need to know about the 270 WBY? Does it eat barrel throats? Pet loads? Good zero?

I might buy this rifle tomorrow, so school me tonight.

Thanks,


Okie John

I think that is a terrible idea, please send me the info on how I can buy it.

Kidding aside, .270 Weatherby is Jim Brockman's favorite Weatherby cartridge. My wife and I each have one on model 70 actions. They have fluted Lilja barrels and Brown Precision stocks. They feed great, shoot flat, hit hard and are quite accurate. I think they feed better than the .270 WSM. There is bunch of high quality factory ammo available. We don't shoot ours enough to worry about barrel life. I would be all over this rifle.

[okie john]

I was afraid you'd say that.


Okie John

[SLG]

GJM,

I've never been into the Weatherby cartridges. Can you go into a little more detail on this one? A hunting buddy of mine preferred a .257 W for Pronghorn, and that was a nice set up, though factory ammo was just ridiculously expensive, so he didn't shoot it much.

[GJM]

GJM,

I've never been into the Weatherby cartridges. Can you go into a little more detail on this one? A hunting buddy of mine preferred a .257 W for Pronghorn, and that was a nice set up, though factory ammo was just ridiculously expensive, so he didn't shoot it much.

I also viewed Weatherby cartridges as bogus, appealing primarily to hunters that thought velocity listed on brochures was the most important attribute in picking a hunting rifle. It is a pretty interesting story how I ended up with the .270 Weatherby, but it will take enough time, that I need to head to a match now, and will describe it later.

[GJM]

Perhaps a longer explanation, but hopefully it will shed some light on how I got to the .270 Weatherby.

I started shooting centerfire rifles in the 80's, mostly .308 and .30-06 rifles, which made sense living in the northeast. My wife and I decided to go to Botswana for our honeymoon, and went to Gunsite in 1991, taking a rifle class to get prepared. We ended up going to Africa a number of times, where I settled on a .375H&H/.416 Rigby model 70 based combo for hunting there, and a .308 model 70 for deer hunting and training.

When we moved to Alaska in 2002, Jim Brockman recommended a .338-06, as being a good gun for caribou and moose, but also being suitable for bear defense. I shot a bunch of moose and caribou with that rifle, hunted Canada for goat and caribou with, and generally liked it. I also used it for elk in the west, and ended up having two issues where I mis-ranged elk in inclement conditions, and had to chase them around. That led me to wanting something flatter shooting for western mule deer and elk hunting. Brockman built me up a .270 WSM on a Nisaka action, which was a real shooter. To make it feed right, we had to go to a HS Precision DBM to get the tomato soup can shaped .270 WSM cartridges to feed.

I took that .270 WSM to Idaho, and one shot harvested a mule over 300 and and a bulk elk at just over 400 yards. The problem was I really disliked a DBM on a hunting rifle. Jim Brockman suggested .270 Weatherby as being ballistically similar but better feeding in a conventional model 70 action. I was pretty negative based on various Weatherby cartridge and rifle horror stories -- from magazines coming open (enough so guides often duct taped them closed on client guns) and ballistic tip bullets coming apart in .300 Weatherby in Alaska and Africa. Jim convinced me the .270 was the best Weatherby cartridge, so we built a rifle with it. That rifle worked out well, and started a series of very successful hunts, all one shot stops.

Back to Alaska, I decided that out on the tundra a cartridge flatter shooting than the .338-06 would be an advantage, and started hunting my .270 Weatherby there, too. Ultimately, I decided I wanted a .300 WM in AK, for more mass against bears, and had Brockman build me up a favorite -- a very lightweight .300 WM.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/mulie2_zps644df500.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/mulie2_zps644df500.jpg.html)

[PTT]

GJM,
Thanks for the explaining the journey. I enjoy all the bolt gun discussions.

[Mitch]

That is a sharp looking rifle. What's the weight and recoil of the 300wm like?

[GJM]

That is a sharp looking rifle. What's the weight and recoil of the 300wm like?

The rifle is about 6.5 pounds scoped, and recoil is brisk but not objectionable in the context of a hunting gun. Wouldn't want to shoot a rifle course with it.

[Malamute]

Thanks. My club has good concrete benches with sandbags, so at least the basics were present. The problem is me: I don't like recoil and I don't like shooting off the bench, so I don't do it often and I'm not very good at it.

It helps mitigate felt recoil when shooting from a bench to shoot with enough rest material piled up to be able to shoot with your back straight up, rather than hunched over leaned into it.

[okie john]

So here’s an update on the new Model 70 30/06 Featherweight I posted about earlier in this thread.

In April, I started to get ready for hunting season. At 200 yards, this rifle was shooting 2.5 MOA, which was not acceptable. To make a very long story short, I checked and re-torqued the action screws, checked and re-torqued the rings and bases, tried seven different loads and three different scopes, cleaned the bore, checked how the locking lug were bearing, checked to see that the barrel is still free floating, checked for magazine box interference, and probably some other stuff. Groups grew to 5 MOA. As a bonus, POI began to shift when I shot with a tight sling, which it didn’t do before.

I'm guessing that this is a bedding issue, but it's infuriating to think that Winchester's flagship product should need new bedding or a new stock to hold a zero.

Lessons Learned

The value of a trouble-free rifle that holds a zero cannot be measured in dollars.
It takes a while to get to know a rifle. Problems don't necessarily show up right out of the gate.
Wood-stocked rifles that are bedded at the tang and lug are NO GO for the Pacific Northwest. Either bed the action fully or upgrade to a good synthetic stock ASAP.
Re-bedding might not fix this, and accurizing could cost nearly as much as buying a Tikka T3x or other stainless synthetic factory rifle and exceeds that if I add a synthetic stock. Even then, I’m starting from scratch and could have unanticipated problems.


If anyone is interested in a problematic M-70 FWT in 30/06, it’s for sale at Pinto’s Guns in Renton, WA.


Okie John

[MolonLabe416]

Here's another vote for the 30/06 and 9.3x62. Those are great calibers and the '06 is available everywhere.

[SLG]

Okie John,

Sorry to hear about the troubles that can't be fixed with a 30-06.

It sounds like you got a wood stock, is that correct? I would not use a wood stock for anything other than beauty, which is why I think GJM said stainless synthetic...

Regardless, sometimes guns come from the factory less perfect than they should. Have you contacted Winchester? They should make it right.

[okie john]

Okie John,

Sorry to hear about the troubles that can't be fixed with a 30-06.

It sounds like you got a wood stock, is that correct? I would not use a wood stock for anything other than beauty, which is why I think GJM said stainless synthetic...

Regardless, sometimes guns come from the factory less perfect than they should. Have you contacted Winchester? They should make it right.

Yes, it's a wood stock. I did not contact the factory. A buddy of mine has an Extreme Weather Model 70 in 30/06 that's remarkably shoddy, and they've done nothing but run him around in circles. After dealing with Glock's lame customer service, I didn't feel like getting more of the same from Winchester, so I sold it with full disclosure.

I'm pretty sure there's a MRC stainless/synthetic 30/06 in my future.


Okie John

[SLG]

Well, I'm sorry to hear that. I haven't bought a m70 in a few years now, but all of my newer ones were very nice, off the rack guns.

As for customer service, I'm not impuning your buddy, but the service he got may not be the service you would get, for a variety of reasons that I'm sure you understand. Then again, yours could be worse;-)

If you like the gun, I would always give the company a chance to make it right. Everyone makes lemons and everyone has bad days, but in the dozens and dozens of times I've used customer service for guns, they have not always been great, but they have done as much as I could hope. I have a smith right now that will be going back for the second time. I imagine it will be the last time, but if not, then it is what it is.

[SkiDevil]

I checked out the Tikka at length but just couldn't warm up to it.


Okie John

John,
Sorry to hear that the Winchester didn't work out for you. I would say say that if it was within your budget, then I would take a hard look at the Sako 85 line of rifles. For a factory rifle the level of quality on these rifles is impressive.

I have an older Howa Stainless .308 from when they were first imported. It is a very practical rifle, but not refined in any way. The accuracy is very good but the trigger is terrible. After looking at re-stocking the gun (manners) and some other work to it I decided that I would be better off purchasing a new rifle.

I looked around locally and stumbled on a dealer who carried several of the Sako 85 models (because of the price many dealers in my area do not stock them). Those rifles are just a night and day different between the Tikka. I am planning on the Stainless 85 in .308, once I recover from the custom 1911 that I purchased a few months ago. Not an inexpensive gun, but for a one rifle hunting battery in 30.06 it would be an excellent choice.

http://www.sako.fi/rifles

[ranger]

I have been watching the Tikka T3 for a while after many positive reviews - I was specifically looking for a caliber that shot significantly heavier bullets than my Kimber 260 but a non-magnum. Cabela's has the "old" Tikka T3 Lite blued in 308 or 3006 for 479.99. None in stock locally but I could order through Cabelas for delivery to local store free. Had a $20 coupon to help offset the tax. Not pushing Cabela's but that appears to be a good deal on the Tikka T3 Lite non-X - I assume they are getting rid of the non-X models. Got the 3006 so I could shoot heavier bullets if so desired.

Also, love my Kimber Montana 260 Remington - super light package when I am doing a LOT of walking.

[Poconnor]

I want to support the new fn/Winchester 70s but the new trigger just rubs me. Too many new haven winchesters on gunbroker for me to break down and buy a new one. This isn't only Winchester but how I feel about marlin and S&w revolvers too.

[okie john]

I want to support the new fn/Winchester 70s but the new trigger just rubs me.

EXACTLY. You buy a Model 70 for the trigger and the safety. Having to throw another $130 to Timney after the sale is infuriating.


Okie John

[SLG]

I like the new triggers and haven't swapped mine at all. I think the FN guns are generally better quality than the New Haven ones too.