Store robbery shootout

[Irelander]

I got this video from Front Sight called the Front Sight Reality Check. The video is very interesting and points out several things that went wrong with the good guys actions. But I can't say I agree with all of the Front Sight sentiments. I am not trying to Monday morning quarterback the officer's actions but just discuss the incident in lieu of the points made by Front Sight.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iipt8jYvBaY

I have been to Front Sight and enjoyed the teaching and the environment, although I found their strict adherence to the Weaver stance quite a bit outdated. I'll just run down some of the points that are made in the video and why I do or do not agree with the thoughts. I'd love to hear what others think.

1. The narrator points out that it takes the officer too long to get his gun out. Come on...the guy obviously was carrying his gun in deep concealment mode so his draw is not going to be as fast as the OWB carrying students at Front Sight. He is also in the middle of a stressful incident so I don't really see any need to nit pick about his draw.

2. The point is made that the officer should have maximized his distance to gain cover and concealment. I agree that finding cover is a good idea, but with the store clerk so close to the BG and with the element of surprise, I think it was wise to get into a position to get a good hit and make sure the clerk was out of the way.

3. The officer's grip is scrutinized since it is not a 2 handed grip and the officer still has the bag of groceries in this support hand. It is a good idea to drop what you are carrying so that your hands can move to the gun without any obstructions. In the heat of the moment the officer was able to produce a seemingly good hit with a SHO grip. Good deal.

4. I totally agree with the next point about verifying your adversary is out of the fight. While BG1 went down for short time he got back up and continued the fight. Who knows what went on in the heat of the battle but the officer chose to turn his attention to the driver before making sure BG1 was down for good. That decision started the events that lead to the officer being shot in the back.

5. The officer shoots the driver who does not seem to have produced a weapon but who knows. The security camera does not provide complete evidence that he did not have a weapon.

6. The point is made that the officer was wrong to shoot a fleeing gunman. I'd like to hear what you all think. My thoughts are that BG1 just shot 2 people in an attempted robbery and is running down the street with a weapon, so I don't see any reason why it was a bad idea for the officer to engage and neutralize the threat. He shot BG1 in the back which never looks good but given the events that had just transpired I don't necessarily see that as an issue.

7. The officer definitely has a combat mindset as pointed out by Front Sight and I totally agree.

What say you?

[psalms144.1]

3. The officer's grip is scrutinized since it is not a 2 handed grip and the officer still has the bag of groceries in this support hand. It is a good idea to drop what you are carrying so that your hands can move to the gun without any obstructions. In the heat of the moment the officer was able to produce a seemingly good hit with a SHO grip. Good deal.Part of the course of instruction at the Instructor Methodologies for Non-Lethal Training Ammunition Instructor Training Program (INLTAITP - longest title course I've ever attended at FLETC), we ran everyone (instructor students) through a scenario where they were delivering a subpoena, and the situation devolves into a gunfight. Every single student (myself included), went through the "gun fight" with the subpoena still in their hand (at least mine was in my support hand). Not sure why that happens, but the idea to start the fight by dropping everything unnecessary before starting the draw stroke seems to be foreign to all of us...

On the question of seeking cover of making distance, I think that depends A LOT on your training. The overwhelming majority of my "combat" training has taught me to close with and destroy the enemy through fire and maneuver, and the seven years I spent in protection emphasized the same (while the detail leader evacuates the Principal, of course), so, during MOST FOF training, my default response is to aggressively approach while delivering rapid fire.

Frankly, for me, this is a MASSIVE training scar. I'm in a plain clothes (fraud investigations) gig now, never wear armor (hard or soft) except when executing a warrant or arrest, so the "combat" mindset I have is going to be a BAD THING (TM) for me, unless having a 250# 6'1" man/bear hybrid aggressively approaching while shooting scares the pee out of my opponent. Probably not so much...

Reviewing that video, however, I don't see what "cover" was easily accessible to the officer involved, and I applaud his aggression.

On the question of shooting a fleeing suspect in the back, for LE, TOTALLY OK in the US. Violent felon? Check! Reasonably believed to be a threat to you or others? Check check! Fleeing? No problemo.

I think for a citizen, the same would hold true. You've watched BG execute a random person. You've been shot in the back and are apparently disabled on the ground. There's no way for you to know if the BG is fleeing or "making distance" to re-engage you on the ground. I'm sure you could argue that one - in court, of course, but I think you'd be OK.

Regards,

Kevin

[Chuck Haggard]

The idea of starting the fight by dropping things you don't need for that fight is foreign because so few people practice "busy hands" drills as part of their training.

This was something we had to do in training at work in order for people to get the idea. I got the idea of doing so after watching video of Constable Lundsford be disarmed and executed with his own gun while holding a flashlight he could have used as a weapon but didn't, and holding the bad guy's ID through the fight.


I think the Active Response Training guy did a better critique of this video when they posted it a few months ago.

One thing I would have done if I was the cop doing the shooting was put more than one round into dude before addressing the other bad guy on the bike.

[Irelander]

My bad. Didn't realize this video had already been discussed.

[Aray]

The idea of starting the fight by dropping things you don't need for that fight is foreign because so few people practice "busy hands" drills as part of their training.

This was something we had to do in training at work in order for people to get the idea. I got the idea of doing so after watching video of Constable Lundsford be disarmed and executed with his own gun while holding a flashlight he could have used as a weapon but didn't, and holding the bad guy's ID through the fight.


I think the Active Response Training guy did a better critique of this video when they posted it a few months ago.

One thing I would have done if I was the cop doing the shooting was put more than one round into dude before addressing the other bad guy on the bike.

Dropping what I have in my hands is one thing I actually learned/practiced while playing IDPA.

[Chuck Haggard]

My bad. Didn't realize this video had already been discussed.

Not sure we did here, I've seen this video several times though so I lose track.

[okie john]

Dropping what I have in my hands is one thing I actually learned/practiced while playing IDPA.

Situation always dictates tactics, and our narrator makes some assumptions that may not be valid.

Like most third-world convenience stores, that one is about the size of the bed of a pickup. Victim 1 is on the ground, which would take up much of that space and could make retreat to cover problematic, especially if the floor is slippery with blood. The narrator assumes that cover is both there and useful, which may not have been so. All in all, the cop's idea of getting out the front door and shooting the robber along the way strikes me as sound.

The narrator also assumes that the cop has a duty pistol, when he might have had a BUG. With limited ammo and no idea of how many bad guys are outside, it might have been smarter to go for one head shot on the way out the door instead of the dogmatic controlled pair to the chest.

Finally, the narrator also makes assumptions about the bag. At best, the bag and its contents become a trip hazard if he drops them when there's limited room to move. If the shooter had a couple of cans (soup, soda, whatever) in the bag, then dropping it basically introduces a couple of giant ball bearings into his primary maneuver space. Throwing it somewhere--assuming there was a place to throw it--might have drawn the robber's attention. So while not ideal, hanging on to the bag while shooting his way out the door might have been the best of a bad set of choices.


Okie John

[Dagga Boy]

Let's see.....I feel like a failure. I closed distance in a shooting, only fired once, because it was all that was needed. My bad. I shot a fleeing felon in the back....and would do it again in a second. Didn't realize that according to front site it is wrong to prevent escape of an obvious armed violent fleeing felon who is highly likely to be a continued danger to the public.

Were some mistakes made....yea. I think the guy did fairly well under the circumstances and to use this as a marketing tool is in my mind pretty disturbing. I guess Brad has done so well in all his shootings against multiple opponents in a t-shirt and jeans that he has earned the right to diminish the actions of others to help build more of those residences that thousands of folks are living in at Frontsight.

[Kyle Reese]

Let's see.....I feel like a failure. I closed distance in a shooting, only fired once, because it was all that was needed. My bad. I shot a fleeing felon in the back....and would do it again in a second. Didn't realize that according to front site it is wrong to prevent escape of an obvious armed violent fleeing felon who is highly likely to be a continued danger to the public.

Were some mistakes made....yea. I think the guy did fairly well under the circumstances and to use this as a marketing tool is in my mind pretty disturbing. I guess Brad has done so well in all his shootings against multiple opponents in a t-shirt and jeans that he has earned the right to diminish the actions of others to help build more of those residences that thousands of folks are living in at Frontsight.

Is he a 5 Gun Combat Master?


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[Malamute]

Interesting video. Is there a way to access the other discussion you mentioned?

I've never seen it mentioned so far, but does anyone have a general shopping plan for hands free? I always get a cart, even if I dont need much, and always take the cart to my vehicle. I dont want a bunch of junk in my hands if I want those hands to be doing something else suddenly.

Wouldnt help in a crowded small market like was in the video, but where I shop carts are always available. I park near the cart corrals.

[Dagga Boy]

I often try to keep my primary hand free....but there is also reality where we can be as conscious as we want, but life happens.

Scotty Reitz takes it so far as to eat with his support hand. That is a very much ghetto eating habit. I was very good about support hand eating at work in the field. At home, I don't. I did get to practice my support hand eating when I was at Tac Conference last year having a late meal at Churches Ckicken in Memphis where everyone who entered the place looked at me like a victim waiting to happen.

[Dagga Boy]

Is he a 5 Gun Combat Master?


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I would hope so.....:rolleyes:

[Chuck Haggard]

I'll echo the idea of room and cover is such an establishment, many people never leave the US but think things are the same everywhere. That place on the video looked to be the size of an average small bedroom, and packed full of stuff. No room to maneuver at all. I've been in several such places in Belize and Puerto Rico

[Irelander]

Let's see.....I feel like a failure. I closed distance in a shooting, only fired once, because it was all that was needed. My bad. I shot a fleeing felon in the back....and would do it again in a second. Didn't realize that according to front site it is wrong to prevent escape of an obvious armed violent fleeing felon who is highly likely to be a continued danger to the public.

Were some mistakes made....yea. I think the guy did fairly well under the circumstances and to use this as a marketing tool is in my mind pretty disturbing. I guess Brad has done so well in all his shootings against multiple opponents in a t-shirt and jeans that he has earned the right to diminish the actions of others to help build more of those residences that thousands of folks are living in at Frontsight.

I totally agree.

[NETim]

I often try to keep my primary hand free....but there is also reality where we can be as conscious as we want, but life happens.

Scotty Reitz takes it so far as to eat with his support hand. That is a very much ghetto eating habit. I was very good about support hand eating at work in the field. At home, I don't. I did get to practice my support hand eating when I was at Tac Conference last year having a late meal at Churches Ckicken in Memphis where everyone who entered the place looked at me like a victim waiting to happen.

Damn! Yet another skill to acquire and hone. Damn.

And here I thought I had hardened up.

[Chuck Haggard]

Damn! Yet another skill to acquire and hone. Damn.

And here I thought I had hardened up.

It's a continuum.........

[Peally]

Damn! Yet another skill to acquire and hone. Damn.

And here I thought I had hardened up.

Practice in private first, it's harder to draw when there's spaghetti hanging out of your nose ;)

[1slow]

Now I need to learn chopsticks left handed for the Japanese restaurant.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

1. I can use chopsticks with either hand - leaving my hand free for the Sushi shootout.

2. At the NTI, years ago, we had a stage where you entered a house carrying pizza. You then saw blood all over. You had to continue - some participants said that they wouldn't enter but you had to. I got points for dropping the pizza. Most carried it through the clearing.

3. At IDPA, I got a penalty for ditching the suitcase full of diamonds. We are supposed to carry through the stage. I didn't.

4. At a Given's conference a few years ago, I recall hearing one participant was chastised for tossing a baby we were supposed to save (OOPS!). There was a picture of me dynamically holding the baby and shooting. It had a good sense of motion. An officer friend and my Art-history daughter commented on the composition of the picture. Marty Hayes took it.

As far as not dropping things - that just overload of cognitive capacity, IMHO. Loosing one hand while tightly gripping the other is a sympathetic disconnect or antagonism for motor control under stress.

Don't many gun fight videos show gun out one handed responses? It would take a lot of reps. to move the two handed stance to automaticity under stress.

The Front Sight commentator is being overcritical, IMHO. It is a bit of posturing. Who knows what he would do? Going to find concealment, how long does that take while someone can shoot you on the way? Wasn't there a study that demonstrated that many got shot in FOF while going to such rather than engaging the target?

As far as engaging the fleeing fellow, that is just horsepoop legally and morally. Just posturing again.