Winchester Model 70

[David S.]

I am looking to buy a Pre-64 Model 70 in .30-06. The local Cabela's has a few between $1100 and $1500 and on up. They all seem to be in good shape with some minor cosmetic dings and wear that would be expected from a 50+ year old rifle. I just came away with a serious case of the wantsies (to paraphrase Tam).

I'm looking for a shooter that will get shot with and probably beat up, so I have no interest in collector grade. A couple of buddies and I are planning a CO elk hunt this year and so I'm shopping for a rifle appropriate for CONUS, big game. .30-06 seems reasonable and readily available on the Model 70 platform.

As someone who's never spent any time with bolt rifles, and the Model 70 in particular, what do I need to know?

Knockoffs? One website I ran across said to be on the lookout for knockoffs. Is this a serious issue if I stick to the "normal" calibers? What resources can help guide me through it?

Aftermarket? The Cabela's rep seemed pretty sure that at least a couple had aftermarket stocks. I'd rather stay all original just because, but should I care about this on a sub $1500 working-rifle?

The Cabela's rep also suggested I need to be careful with my scope choice because of the 90* bolt swing. One of the examples had a Leupold VXII 3-9x40 (IIRC) scope mounted. As it was set up, the bolt handle just barely cleared the eyepiece while cycling and seems like would interfere with the hand when manipulating aggressively.

What else should I look for when selecting a vintage rifle?

Cheers,
David

[GJM]

A pre 64 model 70 is my favorite action.

You could do a lot worse for a rifle than buying a .06 featherweight, cut LOP to 13.25 with a limb saver pad, Talley rings and bases, a Leupold 1.75-6 or 2.5-8, a third stud position for a Langlois Ching sling and shoot the crap out of it.

I have one that started out in .06, and is now a 9.3x62. Others that became .338-06, .338WM, .270 and other calibers I have forgotten.

[okie john]

A pre 64 model 70 is my favorite action.

You could do a lot worse for a rifle than buying a .06 featherweight, cut LOP to 13.25 with a limb saver pad, Talley rings and bases, a Leupold 1.75-6 or 2.5-8, a third stud position for a Langlois Ching sling and shoot the crap out of it.

I have one that started out in .06, and is now a 9.3x62. Others that became .338-06, .338WM, .270 and other calibers I have forgotten.

I'm very much in this camp. I've had several custom and semi-custom Model 70's, including in 308, 30/06, 270, 338/06, and 35 Whelen. It helps that I live less than 40 miles from Jim Cloward.

Standard rifles are fine, but I'd hold out for a Featherweight, which is about a pound lighter. I'd get one with a Monte Carlo stock because it will help you get the right cheek weld for using a scope. I also wouldn't get too wound up on making sure you get one that's pristine. The most common ones were in 270 and 30/06.

There are a couple of tricks to getting the most accuracy out of them. If you get a Standard rifle, remove and discard the screw that holds the barrel to the stock--it's under the rear sight boss on the barrel. (The Featherweight doesn't have this one.) On both the Standard and the Featherweight, tighten the action screws like you would a Mauser: crank the front one in tight, crank in the rear one tight then back it out about 1/4 turn. If the middle screw is too tight, the action can rock on it and open up groups, so tighten it just enough to keep it from falling out.

Most of the 30/06's shoot very well with a good 180-grain bullet over 55 grains of 4350, or a 165 over 57 grains of 4350. Shoot your first few groups with those loads. If you adjust the screws as described and the rifle doesn't shoot these loads well, it probably needs work.

I'd ignore the advice about the scope bell clearing the bolt handle. The M-70 bolt handle design is one of the most copied in the world for a reason, and if you're running the bolt like you should be, then it won't be a problem.

Once you get a feel for what an original stock looks like, you'll be able to spot a Bishop or Fajen across the room. I'd prefer a factory Monte Carlo as stated above. The aftermarket ones were meant as upgrades, but rarely succeeded.

Not sure what a knockoff is, but it's not difficult to swap barrels on these rifles, so maybe that's it.

Other than that, make sure that there's no pitting in the bore or chamber and you should be good to go.

The only pitfall to buying a pre-64 Model 70 Featherweight in 30/06 is that you'll never need another rifle unless you hunt African buffalo or pachyderms.


Okie John

[nalesq]

I inherited a pre-64 Model 70 Featherweight in .30-06. I am tempted to chop the barrel down to 18 inches or so to make it more carbine-like. Is this a reasonable idea or am I just going to wind up with a horribly blasty abomination?

[farscott]

Rather than spend $1500 for a real pre-'64 Model 70, I suggest purchasing one of the new ones made in South Carolina as they cost less and have much better machining. The MSRP on the basic model is just under $1000 with the Bud's selling the basic model for $754 and the Super Grade for $1100. You get the benefits of the controlled-feed action combined with FN's current manufacturing prowess.

[NETim]

I inherited a pre-64 Model 70 Featherweight in .30-06. I am tempted to chop the barrel down to 18 inches or so to make it more carbine-like. Is this a reasonable idea or am I just going to wind up with a horribly blasty abomination?

I wouldn't touch it. Cutting up an original Featherweight is a sin.

[LittleLebowski]

Rather than spend $1500 for a real pre-'64 Model 70, I suggest purchasing one of the new ones made in South Carolina as they cost less and have much better machining. The MSRP on the basic model is just under $1000 with the Bud's selling the basic model for $754 and the Super Grade for $1100. You get the benefits of the controlled-feed action combined with FN's current manufacturing prowess.

Agreed.

[David S.]

My local Cabela's had several pre-64's in stock and only one or two in my price range that were standard length, the rest were 22" barrel. As tall as I am, I'm looking for all the LOP I can get.

[GJM]

The new model 70 FN rifles look very nice.

One advantage of the real pre 64 actions is how the rails are integral to the action. Not so much an issue for .06, but an advantage with harder to feed cartridges.

For a complete rifle in .06, I would certainly look at the new stainless synthetic FN 70. As a base for building a custom rifle, I would go real pre-64. The pre 64 featherweights in .06 used to be $500, with the .270 models less common.

A pre 64 combo of an .06 and .375H&H was a do the whole world battery of rifles.

[GJM]

My local Cabela's had several pre-64's in stock and only one or two in my price range that were standard length, the rest were 22" barrel. As tall as I am, I'm looking for all the LOP I can get.

I am 6-1 with 35 inch sleeves, and prefer a shorter LOP for optimal manipulation of the bolt.

[okie john]

I inherited a pre-64 Model 70 Featherweight in .30-06. I am tempted to chop the barrel down to 18 inches or so to make it more carbine-like. Is this a reasonable idea or am I just going to wind up with a horribly blasty abomination?

There will be blast, and the balance will move far enough to the rear to wreck how it handles.

Why not carry it on a couple of hunts and then decide? I hunt in very thick brush, and after trying 20" lever guns, Scout rifles, and bolt-action carbines, I now use a 22" bolt gun for everything. In the brush, any long gun is a pain to manage, and the 22" M-70 is no slower or more difficult to handle than anything else.


Okie John

[David S.]

I am 6-1 with 35 inch sleeves, and prefer a shorter LOP for optimal manipulation of the bolt.

I'm 6-9ish.

George, so has your perception softened WRT the FN 70's? You seemed pretty unimpressed by them in threads from couple years ago.

[JM Campbell]

It's a 308 but might fit your agenda.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?t=14785

If not excuse this interruption in the discussion.

[David S.]

Very tempting, but I'm guessing that's a relatively heavy rifle that doesn't fit the GP/hunting mission.

[HCM]

Very tempting, but I'm guessing that's a relatively heavy rifle that doesn't fit the GP/hunting mission.

You are correct.

[GJM]

George, so has your perception softened WRT the FN 70's? You seemed pretty unimpressed by them in threads from couple years ago.

Need to put this in perspective and perhaps shed some light for those not so familiar with the model 70. Growing up not too far from the Winchester plant, a real pre 64 model 70 was pretty common, as was universal disdain for the post 64 model 70 rifles for many years. When the "classic" controlled feed models were reintroduced, it was great news. Especially attractive was the short action model, since the original model 70 didn't have a short action model, meaning if you wanted .308, it was in an .06 length action. Jim Brockman started building on them for me and a few friends, and a few issues surfaced. One, the triggers were not as good as the pre 64 actions, and, two, the feed rails were not integral on the newer actions, making feeding problematic with calibers in different shapes than .270/.30-06. This caused me to go back to building on pre-64 actions and rifles.

Some time in there, there was a labor dispute, and the model 70 line in New Haven got shut down and relocated south. I became vaguely aware of some FN actions and guns. I never built on them, but they seemed heavy, which may just have been their configuration.

In the last few years, I got three exposures to the newer FN model 70 rifles. SLG reported good things to me, I handled one extensively a few times in stores, and a buddy brought one deer hunting with me on a trip to Kodiak. THe rifle seemed very nice, and a good value compared to building a custom. Much better than, for example, a Kimber which seemed fragile by comparison.

I have enough real pre 64 based rifles and stockpiled pre 64 actions to build whatever I am realistically going to want. However, if I wanted to walk into a store, and buy a rifle, it likely would be a stainless synthetic FN model 70.

Hope this helps.

[David S.]

Very much so. Thanks for everyone's time.

[Crews]

Awesome info. Just scored a FN TSR, and love it. Wish I had found it sooner. Subscribed!

[LittleLebowski]

Need to put this in perspective and perhaps shed some light for those not so familiar with the model 70. Growing up not too far from the Winchester plant, a real pre 64 model 70 was pretty common, as was universal disdain for the post 64 model 70 rifles for many years. When the "classic" controlled feed models were reintroduced, it was great news. Especially attractive was the short action model, since the original model 70 didn't have a short action model, meaning if you wanted .308, it was in an .06 length action. Jim Brockman started building on them for me and a few friends, and a few issues surfaced. One, the triggers were not as good as the pre 64 actions, and, two, the feed rails were not integral on the newer actions, making feeding problematic with calibers in different shapes than .270/.30-06. This caused me to go back to building on pre-64 actions and rifles.

Some time in there, there was a labor dispute, and the model 70 line in New Haven got shut down and relocated south. I became vaguely aware of some FN actions and guns. I never built on them, but they seemed heavy, which may just have been their configuration.

In the last few years, I got three exposures to the newer FN model 70 rifles. SLG reported good things to me, I handled one extensively a few times in stores, and a buddy brought one deer hunting with me on a trip to Kodiak. THe rifle seemed very nice, and a good value compared to building a custom. Much better than, for example, a Kimber which seemed fragile by comparison.

I have enough real pre 64 based rifles and stockpiled pre 64 actions to build whatever I am realistically going to want. However, if I wanted to walk into a store, and buy a rifle, it likely would be a stainless synthetic FN model 70.

Hope this helps.

My brother the Marine Scout Sniper has done at least three builds on FN Model 70 actions and is very impressed with them.

[David S.]

oooh, shiny!!

M70 Extreme Weather SS (http://www.winchesterguns.com/products/catalog/detail.asp?family=001C&mid=535206)

"Bell & Carlson stock. . . aluminum bedding block designs (for a total lock from action to stock), you get superb accuracy, ideal balance and strength....."

Real deal or marketing BS?

[GJM]

that is the model my buddy had, and I was looking at

[Prdator]

oooh, shiny!!

M70 Extreme Weather SS (http://www.winchesterguns.com/products/catalog/detail.asp?family=001C&mid=535206)

"Bell & Carlson stock. . . aluminum bedding block designs (for a total lock from action to stock), you get superb accuracy, ideal balance and strength....."

Real deal or marketing BS?


OH MY..... They are chambering it for the Legendary 264 win mag.... I must have one...... That is my favorite caliber of all!!! Long history of the 264 in my family. It was the first rifle my dad got for me.. and I gave my nephew a pre 64 in 264 this last year for Christmas... ( working for Keepers Concealment has its perks)

Im a huge W70 fan as well.. the new ones are proly the best M70's that have been made... Maybe someday Ill build my battery back up.. 223AI,65.x284, 264, 270, 06, 300 ultra 338 ultra, 375 ultra 375 wetherby, 416rem and 458 Lott. cause One M70 aint enough.

[Aray]

I hate all of you. Now I must have one in .30-06. It's for my son...after I'm dead of course.

[Crews]

oooh, shiny!!

M70 Extreme Weather SS (http://www.winchesterguns.com/products/catalog/detail.asp?family=001C&mid=535206)

"Bell & Carlson stock. . . aluminum bedding block designs (for a total lock from action to stock), you get superb accuracy, ideal balance and strength....."

Real deal or marketing BS?

My TSR XP in 308 is sub moa. Action is smooth, the trigger is decent, the factory bottom metal is solid, and the Hogue stock is alright. For my hunting use, it has been my favorite out of the box rifle to date. I've got a Manners elite hunter stock, and CDI DBM kit on order, but that's just extra.

[okie john]

Much better than, for example, a Kimber which seemed fragile by comparison.

Not to derail the thread, but can you comment more on the Kimber's fragility? I'm very close to picking up a Montana in 308 and I'd like to avoid problems if that's possible.

Thanks,


Okie John

[GJM]

Not to derail the thread, but can you comment more on the Kimber's fragility? I'm very close to picking up a Montana in 308 and I'd like to avoid problems if that's possible.

Thanks,


Okie John

I had a .260 Kimber. It didn't always feed properly, and .260 is not a demanding cartridge to feed. If you handle it, and compare it to a model 70, it seems obvious that the weight savings came out of downsizing the action. My standard for a .308 class gun, is will the rifle hold up to a 300-500 round, three day practical rifle course. I don't get warm feelings in that regard. Not just a Kimber criticism but one of very lightweight rifles. The NULA being another example. My buddy broke the bolt in half on his NULA. Not confident of the feeding on mine. By comparison my model 70 .260 is bombproof, and I would run any class with it.

SLG might chime in here, as I believe he had a Kimber that was great until it wasn't.

My custom builder says that the stainless barrel Kimber guns are iffy on accuracy, maybe 50/50 as to will they shoot accurately. Better with the blued barrels.

[secondstoryguy]

I love controlled feed Winchester Mod 70s. By far the best of all worlds when it comes to a hunting/practical rifle. Besides the advantages of the controlled feed action the safety and locking bolt are big advantages in my book. Having carried rifles over hill and dale I've had a few bad experiences with rifles who's bolts don't lock, namely, sling carrying a rifle up a mountain and shouldering it only to find the bolt open with the live round ejected and the action filled with snow. This won't happen with a Mauser style action and the rifle can be unloaded with the safety on.

The other advantage of the pre-64s or the 90s New Haven guns is the trigger. Stupid simple, reliable and can be tuned for a really nice pull/break usually without modifications.

I've also had a bunch of experience with the Kimber rifles, especially the Montana model. Great rifles and they will tolerate a lot of abuse but as GJM stated I would hesitate to run them in a high round count class. They simply are not made for that. Like the Mod 70, the triggers are easily adjustable and well made. The Montana is IMHO the perfect mountain hunting rifle (and pretty much all hunting). The price is right and a great value for what your getting. A well stocked stainless rifle with controlled feed and a good trigger that hovers around 6.5lbs with optics for under a $1K...what's not to like!

The Kimbers also shoot amazingly soft for their weight. As far as accuracy goes I've seen good to excellent accuracy from the late production models. They can be a little finiky with bullet weights/types but all have been acceptable.

As a side note controlled feed actions are making a comeback in certain circles. Several custom action manufacturers have recently put out custom actions incorporating proven Mauser type designs. Be forewarned, they arn't cheap:
http://www.americanrifle.com/Mausingfield-Bolt-Action.html
http://defiancemachine.com/ (Not cataloged yet but available with a full length extractor)

[SLG]

I have a bunch of Kimbers in a bunch of calibers, as well as a bunch of M70's. Not as many as GJM.

Some of the kimbers shoot lights out, some do not. More than 50% of them had to go back to factory, some multiple times, and they still don't go bang all the time. That's what's not to like. With the Kimbers, you're paying for features, not quality. They are light and handy, with Mauser type bolts. They just don't work every time, so for me, that's not a good way to go. My wife and I hunted a lot with our Kimbers, but it has been a few years since we were willing to take one in the field and risk it.

The M70's are bigger and heavier, but I trust them. Never had one that needed to go back. As mentioned, I think the new ones from SC are the best yet. Integral feed rails would be nice, but they seem to work anyway. Triggers are good and accuracy seems pretty consistently good. Overall, the current M70 is my choice in a bolt gun for field use, though more often than not, I pick my 6.5 G AR instead of any bolt.

I know a bunch of the guys on the Kifaru forum, and they are dedicated lightweight hunters. The Kimber was the "school solution" to that for a while, and then many of them had problems with their guns as well. I bought my first 84M knowing about the issues but figured I'd try it out. Too frustrating after a while.

[GJM]

Some of the kimbers shoot lights out, some do not. More than 50% of them had to go back to factory, some multiple times, and they still don't go bang all the time. That's what's not to like. With the Kimbers, you're paying for features, not quality.

Paying for features is a great way to express it. When you look at them on paper, the Kimber seems phenomenal. It is the consistent execution that is lacking.

I expect a bolt gun, even in a light caliber like .260 to be able to double duty -- harvest an animal, and protect me from bears and other creatures. To that end, I do a bunch of testing of feeding, from gentle to vigorous. That is the reason, despite having a NULA and Kimber .260, I went to the trouble of having a .260 built on a short action model 70.

[okie john]

Thank you to everyone for your comments on your experiences with the Kimber. For now, it's off the list.

I'll start another thread to keep from derailing this one any further.

Thanks again,


Okie John