Method to convince myself to relax upper body while shooting

[BehindBlueI's]

I asked this question on another forum and was referred here with the understanding the membership here is knowledgeable and willing to share.

Some background:

I'm a fairly experienced shooter. Sworn LEO for 9 years, contractor and military before that. I started off with Weaver and have transitioned to Isosceles. I use a thumbs forward grip. I am reasonably capable in terms of accuracy and speed. At 7y I keep a 1" group during slow fire. I have no problems staying on steel at 50y. I am sure there are many shooters here who are far better, but I just wanted to give you an idea of where I'm at.

Now here's my issue. As a range session progresses, I start tensing up too much. I am trying to hold the tension in my wrists to control muzzle flip, but I end up tightening my grip too much and worse yet, tightening my forearms up to the point I'm causing my pistol to wobble in a circle. It's like the gun is in a vice that's slowly moving in a circle. The sight picture doesn't change, I'm not shoving the gun around, I'm actually moving the entire gun due to how much tension I have in my upper body.

In short, I know I need to relax. I don't know how, though. Once I realize it I can back off, but I'm curious if anyone has any mental or physical exercises or methods to help convince my brain that the tension we started with was just fine and stop ratcheting it up. I would love to find some way to work on this with dry fire.

Oddly, when I shoot steels on the move I don't notice myself doing it. That doesn't mean I'm not, maybe I am and am just occupied with other things. I definitely notice it when shooting for accuracy. First shot goes where I want it, second shot goes where I want it, third shot goes where I want it, then I feel myself tensing up because I really really really want that 4th shot to go where I want it to as well.

Thank you for your time, and I look forward to your input.

[Duces Tecum]

Are you packing your strong shoulder? In many shooters (not all, but many) what you describe happens with a strong grip combines with an elevated shoulder. Remember, shoulders are ear poison.

[BehindBlueI's]

Are you packing your strong shoulder? In many shooters (not all, but many) what you describe happens with a strong grip combines with an elevated shoulder. Remember, shoulders are ear poison.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by packing. Like shrugging? Maybe. It never occurred to me to see what my shoulders are doing. I did some draws here while thinking about it and while my head drops a bit I'm not raising my shoulders much. That certainly doesn't mean I'm not doing it once I start pressuring myself, though, as none of this occurs when I'm relaxed.

Thanks, it gives me something to look for.

[shane45]

I see people start to do figure eights when the subconsciously start to lean backward. Are you maintaining a forward stance?

[peterthefish]

I had / have the same issue. Obviously, awareness and practice are the only way to overcome it.

I actually noticed watching video of myself shoot after I got a pair of pivotheads. My initial shots on the draw had the targets well centered in my field of view, but after a reload or movement they moved to he top of my FOV because I was dropping my head towards my strong side shoulder.

It's easy to fix on the draw if you're aware of it. Still working on maintaining a good posture after reloads / movement - lots of dry fire practice with video focused on keeping relaxed after reloads / movement with some live fire validation. We'll see what happens when it gets warm enough to do some serious shooting outdoors.

[YVK]

I am not an SME or expert so this below is not an advice, just thoughts




Now here's my issue. As a range session progresses, I start tensing up too much. I am trying to hold the tension in my wrists to control muzzle flip, but I end up tightening my grip too much and worse yet, tightening my forearms up to the point I'm causing my pistol to wobble in a circle.


Is it causing problems with hits, or it is the sensation you don't like?



In short, I know I need to relax

I spent a good deal of last year working on physical relaxation, doing what Gabe and I called going soft - hard - soft again etc. Last week I did a little group session with Rob Leatham and we had a good discussion about, icincluding touching different body parts (joke, but true, but joke). The amount of muscular tension he had even before drawing and shooting flew right in face of that relaxation thing I was doing, yet he was way faster than I, and I wasn't really that slow on that day.
Just some food for thought.

[Duces Tecum]

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by packing. Like shrugging? Maybe. It never occurred to me to see what my shoulders are doing. I did some draws here while thinking about it and while my head drops a bit I'm not raising my shoulders much. That certainly doesn't mean I'm not doing it once I start pressuring myself, though, as none of this occurs when I'm relaxed.

Thanks, it gives me something to look for.

Actually, packing the shoulder is the opposite of shrugging. When a person shrugs the shoulder rises and becomes unstable. When packed, the shoulder feels like it is being withdrawn into the socket. Stability is much improved.

[BehindBlueI's]

I see people start to do figure eights when the subconsciously start to lean backward. Are you maintaining a forward stance?

No. Good thought. As I get tired I start to lean back.


Is it causing problems with hits, or it is the sensation you don't like?

I spent a good deal of last year working on physical relaxation, doing what Gabe and I called going soft - hard - soft again etc. Last week I did a little group session with Rob Leatham and we had a good discussion about, icincluding touching different body parts (joke, but true, but joke). The amount of muscular tension he had even before drawing and shooting flew right in face of that relaxation thing I was doing, yet he was way faster than I, and I wasn't really that slow on that day.
Just some food for thought.

It's both. It's not a huge problem as in it causes me to miss, but it certainly opens up my groups. It frustrates me as I feel like I'm hitting a wall and not improving any longer. Good input, thank you.


Actually, packing the shoulder is the opposite of shrugging. When a person shrugs the shoulder rises and becomes unstable. When packed, the shoulder feels like it is being withdrawn into the socket. Stability is much improved.

So, pulling the shoulders in toward the center line of the body (spine)? I will give this a try. Thank you for your input.

[Mr_White]

I bolded a few parts of your post that stand out to me.


As a range session progresses, I start tensing up too much. I am trying to hold the tension in my wrists to control muzzle flip, but I end up tightening my grip too much and worse yet, tightening my forearms up to the point I'm causing my pistol to wobble in a circle. It's like the gun is in a vice that's slowly moving in a circle. The sight picture doesn't change, I'm not shoving the gun around, I'm actually moving the entire gun due to how much tension I have in my upper body.

In short, I know I need to relax. I don't know how, though. Once I realize it I can back off, but I'm curious if anyone has any mental or physical exercises or methods to help convince my brain that the tension we started with was just fine and stop ratcheting it up. I would love to find some way to work on this with dry fire.

Oddly, when I shoot steels on the move I don't notice myself doing it. That doesn't mean I'm not, maybe I am and am just occupied with other things. I definitely notice it when shooting for accuracy. First shot goes where I want it, second shot goes where I want it, third shot goes where I want it, then I feel myself tensing up because I really really really want that 4th shot to go where I want it to as well.

I'll offer a few thoughts that are kind of random, and I hope something will help.

This sounds to me like a mental issue. The last bolded part reads to me as a statement of attachment to outcome. It's easy for me to say you should avoid really really really wanting, but ultimately I think that is what you have to release yourself from. Easier said than done for sure. Think process not outcome. The process you used got you hits on the first three shots in your example. Maybe remind yourself of that and stick with what you were doing for that fourth shot too. Changing process right then might also change outcome.

A physical thing that may play into it, stated from the point of view of my own experience:

I always have a hell of a time with the descriptions given of shoulders in shooting. I've read many times not to tense them. But when I grip the gun hard and hold it in front of me, my shoulders are tense, I think because they are holding up my arms and gun, plus my elbows are rolled up and out somewhat which also creates a somewhat tense upper body structure between my arms and chest.

Maybe what's really meant with the shoulders is not to shrug them, which I'd agree with. Where I deliberately apply tension is in my hands in order to grip the gun pretty hard. I'm just trying to grip the gun with my hands. The mental construct I have there is to 'hold the gun stiffly in place.' Then I grip it pretty hard, which also results in my wrists and forearms being tensed, there is a some pectoral engagement, and there is some shoulder tensing. I know some people get a lot of mileage from strongly emphasizing a pectoral squeeze. That something I revisit now and then, but usually that leads to me feeling like I am overmuscling the gun. Maybe that's only a small difference, or a semantics difference.

An analogy to a handshake: if I shook someone's hand trying to crush it, I would be squeezing my hand basically as hard as I can. That is what I think is going to lead to perhaps an excessive amount of tension. Conversely, if I shook hands with someone who I knew has one of those bone crushing handshakes, and were not trying to crush their hand, but instead simply prevent my own hand from being crushed, I would hold my hand pretty stiffly with a high degree of my strength, but not actively crushing with all of my strength. This feels analogous to the feeling/manner in which I grip the gun trying to 'hold it stiffly in place.'

I know that there are some really top level shooters that grip the gun incredibly hard. But I think they are still only using a portion of their available strength. They are gripping the gun harder others do though because they have a whole lot of grip strength to start with. I think there can be a big difference between 'Gripping the gun' and 'GRRRRRRRRRRipping the gun.' Just grip it with one R, not with a GRRRRRRR. Minimizing muzzle flip is only a portion of what reduces times between shots. There is more going on there than just minimizing the gun's movement (vision and trigger specifically.)

A question: when you say you have so much tension that you are moving the gun in a circle, do you think you are giving too much mental attention to the gun moving around (the wobble zone) and instead maybe you need to accept it and recognize that the area in which the gun is moving around is not going to ruin the shot? I suspect from what you've described about your skill level that you are already past this. Just throwing that out there for your consideration.

[BaiHu]

Maybe a different thread, but anatomically, the pectoral muscles peak strength are in and around the chest with the arms bent. The further we drive the gun from the chest, the less the chest can really be engaged. Other than that, Gabe nails it from my thoughts.

I think much of this is a sense of moving from the robotic process of thoughtfulness to the more natural point of smoothness as the process becomes "normal".

[Duces Tecum]

SNIP "So, pulling the shoulders in toward the center line of the body (spine)? I will give this a try. Thank you for your input." SNIP

No, not backwards towards the spine (as in a pullup). Think of yourself performing an L-sit and use your lats to pull your shoulders straight down. I didn't mention it before, but be sure to continue your usual abdominal breathing (as opposed to chest breathing). Most of the time the combination of packed shoulders and abdominal breathing quiets the sights wonderfully.

[GJM]

I spent a good deal of last year working on physical relaxation, doing what Gabe and I called going soft - hard - soft again etc. Last week I did a little group session with Rob Leatham and we had a good discussion about, icincluding touching different body parts (joke, but true, but joke). The amount of muscular tension he had even before drawing and shooting flew right in face of that relaxation thing I was doing, yet he was way faster than I, and I wasn't really that slow on that day.
Just some food for thought.

Let's go on the record right now. YVK showed up at Robbie's with a solid draw -- the kind I associate with a B open shooter. :) Under Robbie's tutelage, he hit two successive .70 something draws, with a LEM trigger no less.



A question: when you say you have so much tension that you are moving the gun in a circle, do you think you are giving too much mental attention to the gun moving around (the wobble zone) and instead maybe you need to accept it and recognize that the area in which the gun is moving around is not going to ruin the shot? I suspect from what you've described about your skill level that you are already past this. Just throwing that out there for your consideration.

Robbie says shooting relaxed is BS advice. Think anyone waits for the beep at the nationals relaxed, or as they draw the gun on a bad guy feels relaxed. He believes you need to harness tension and learn to operate with it. To the OP, the timer and hits don't lie. Is the tension causing better, worse or the same performance?

And to the OP, you should know I am a Leatham Method authorized instructor. To get that designation, there is a multi-part test.

1) Instruct by saying "stop the gun, aim, jerk the trigger."

2) To go faster, say "jerk the trigger faster."

3) Have a great sense of humor.

4) Enjoy lunch.

I have certified Darryl.

[taadski]

Robbie says shooting relaxed is BS advice. Think anyone waits for the beep at the nationals relaxed, or as they draw the gun on a bad guy feels relaxed. He believes you need to harness tension and learn to operate with it. To the OP, the timer and hits don't lie. Is the tension causing better, worse or the same performance?



I'm not sure it's quite that clear cut. I thought the discussion with TGO about relaxation and tension was in particular interesting when discussing Enos, his long time shooting/training buddy, who clearly sits on the "relaxation" side of the fence as discussed ad nauseum in his book. The interesting bit is neither of them clearly distinguish whether they're talking about the physicality or the mental side and I think that's an extremely important distinction.

Obviously Enos still grips the shit out of his gun to shoot at the level he does, but his argument as I understand it is that "tension" is the system can lead to other undesirable outcomes (like flinch, blinking, instinctive grip contraction, etc…) and that acute vision, shot calling, crystal clear awareness (the whole "zen" thing) is much easier to attain in a more relaxed (mental?) state.

Another top shooter (long time USPSA National top 16) I've spent a lot of time training and shooting with preaches having everything forward of the elbows very firm while the shoulders, lats, chest, abdomen all stay "relaxed". Mind you he's also a physical beast and can squeeze water out of rocks so that obviously plays a role in what he's successful with. Point being there's a range of what is effective re this stuff at the top levels.

[BehindBlueI's]

This sounds to me like a mental issue. The last bolded part reads to me as a statement of attachment to outcome. It's easy for me to say you should avoid really really really wanting, but ultimately I think that is what you have to release yourself from. Easier said than done for sure. Think process not outcome. The process you used got you hits on the first three shots in your example. Maybe remind yourself of that and stick with what you were doing for that fourth shot too. Changing process right then might also change outcome.
...

That's the approach I've been taking. I agree its in my head more than in my body. I base this on when I'm on a timer as opposed to shooting for groups I don't notice myself doing it.



SNIP "So, pulling the shoulders in toward the center line of the body (spine)? I will give this a try. Thank you for your input." SNIP

No, not backwards towards the spine (as in a pullup). Think of yourself performing an L-sit and use your lats to pull your shoulders straight down. I didn't mention it before, but be sure to continue your usual abdominal breathing (as opposed to chest breathing). Most of the time the combination of packed shoulders and abdominal breathing quiets the sights wonderfully.

Ok, NOW I'm understanding. I took the long way around, but I got there. I'll certainly give this a try.


To the OP, the timer and hits don't lie. Is the tension causing better, worse or the same performance?

Marginally worse. Say a 1" group at 7y becomes a 2.5" group. It's when I take my time that I see the issues. If I'm running drills on steel, I either have so much on my mind I don't notice it or I don't do it.

I'm familiar with sight wobble and know you can't hold the gun perfectly still. Back when I did basic training I remember the Drill Sergeant telling us to intentionally weave the front of the rifle in tiny figure 8's if we were unsteady because your body could do that easier than holding it still and you could break the shot as you were in the middle of the "8". I don't intentionally weave the handgun, but I can certainly see it wobbles more. This feeds into my mental issue, though. "Gun is weaving, need more tension to stop it from weaving, its weaving more, must tense up more" etc.

Simply talking it through with you folks has certainly helped me and has given me some things to try. I sincerely appreciate everyone's responses.

[GJM]

I'm not sure it's quite that clear cut. I thought the discussion with TGO about relaxation and tension was in particular interesting when discussing Enos, his long time shooting/training buddy, who clearly sits on the "relaxation" side of the fence as discussed ad nauseum in his book. The interesting bit is neither of them clearly distinguish whether they're talking about the physicality or the mental side and I think that's an extremely important distinction.

Obviously Enos still grips the shit out of his gun to shoot at the level he does, but his argument as I understand it is that "tension" is the system can lead to other undesirable outcomes (like flinch, blinking, instinctive grip contraction, etc…) and that acute vision, shot calling, crystal clear awareness (the whole "zen" thing) is much easier to attain in a more relaxed (mental?) state.

Another top shooter (long time USPSA National top 16) I've spent a lot of time training and shooting with preaches having everything forward of the elbows very firm while the shoulders, lats, chest, abdomen all stay "relaxed". Mind you he's also a physical beast and can squeeze water out of rocks so that obviously plays a role in what he's successful with. Point being there's a range of what is effective re this stuff at the top levels.

Bill Rogers addresses the body's reaction to stress/combat in his Sunday night lecture. A host of physiological things, like the need to pee, poop, changes in breathing and vision. He reported that the same physiological changes often happened merely by him announcing "it is time for the school test." I have been to Rogers enough to see shooters running to take care of bodily functions, including the long trip down to the indoor bathroom, as soon as the test was announced. This applied regardless of shooter ability. I have personally felt those reactions numerous times in the hunting field.

While you might convince yourself to be calm, no question in my mind your body is reacting -- whether that be in a real shooting or even important competition.

[Wondering Beard]

Bill Rogers addresses the body's reaction to stress/combat in his Sunday night lecture. A host of physiological things, like the need to pee, poop, changes in breathing and vision. He reported that the same physiological changes often happened merely by him announcing "it is time for the school test." I have been to Rogers enough to see shooters running to take care of bodily functions, including the long trip down to the indoor bathroom, as soon as the test was announced. This applied regardless of shooter ability. I have personally felt those reactions numerous times in the hunting field.

While you might convince yourself to be calm, no question in my mind your body is reacting -- whether that be in a real shooting or even important competition.

Actually, it's not so much a body thing as it is a brain thing (the amygdala releasing chemicals that prepare the body for stress, so to speak). The tension that the OP talks about seems to be the result of an accumulation over time of tension, or maybe some problems with his stance and grip a the beginning which don't show up until later.

To the OP: you mention that the problem doesn't seem to show up (or perhaps you're unaware of it, as you point out) when shooting steel on the move. Is that at the beginning, middle or end of a session?

[BehindBlueI's]

To the OP: you mention that the problem doesn't seem to show up (or perhaps you're unaware of it, as you point out) when shooting steel on the move. Is that at the beginning, middle or end of a session?

It varies. On inservice days it's mixed up. On open range days I usually do one or the other, either work in the tac bay with the steels or on the paper range. For the past few months due to weather I've been shooting an at indoor range which doesn't allow for dynamic training. All of the static standing and shooting is when I've really noticed it.

FWIW, I've very familiar with the "oh poo, things are happening" stress of violent and potentially lethal conflict, and I've also been in the "we're about to do something that could go really wrong" stress of kicking in doors, serving warrants, high risk traffic stops, etc. I'm acclimated to that sort of stress, and know how it affects me and it's not that type of stress.

[David S.]

Think process not outcome. The process you used got you hits on the first three shots in your example. Maybe remind yourself of that and stick with what you were doing for that fourth shot too. Changing process right then might also change outcome.


This is the key that unlocks my shooting. Unfortunately, it's much easier said than done because my ego is so overpowering.

Gabe, thanks for the reminder.

[Leroy]

I went through a similar issue a several years ago. I noticed I was having serious accuracy issues at longer ranges that I had not had in the past. I figured out I was just gripping the gun so hard that I could not maintain sight alighnment on 6 inch steel at 25 yards.
The issue stemmed from a winter of dryfire with very heavy triggered pistol that I had to crush the gun to run the trigger fast ( completely intentional to improve grip strength). The key thing is I idenitified the problem as have you which is the most important and often hardest part about progressing as a shooter.
What it takes to fix the issue maybe different for every shooter. For myself it was over gripping with the strong hand. If I am focusing on my grip it is now that a grip really hard with the weakhand and guide the gun with the strong hand. I feel that my stronghand will naturally tense as needed during shooting, and have not had this issue since.
I think the fact that you have idenitfied your syptom/problem and are making a conscience decision to fix it, you will, I can only share what worked for me.

[GJM]

This shows how solutions are often individual. My problem on longer range targets is a tendency to relax my grip as my trigger press gets more careful.

[Jubal]

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=6185

[BehindBlueI's]

SNIP "So, pulling the shoulders in toward the center line of the body (spine)? I will give this a try. Thank you for your input." SNIP

No, not backwards towards the spine (as in a pullup). Think of yourself performing an L-sit and use your lats to pull your shoulders straight down. I didn't mention it before, but be sure to continue your usual abdominal breathing (as opposed to chest breathing). Most of the time the combination of packed shoulders and abdominal breathing quiets the sights wonderfully.

This has been pretty helpful. I've been using it in dryfire practice and am going back to the range for live fire Friday to put it to the test. Last Friday was raining, and I gave up voluntary training in the rain MANY years ago.

[Duces Tecum]

This has been pretty helpful.

Thanks for the feedback. I hope you'll report how the live fire goes?

[BehindBlueI's]

Thanks for the feedback. I hope you'll report how the live fire goes?

Of course.

[BehindBlueI's]

I felt much more relaxed, and I did try the shoulder packing. My groups didn't tighten up much, but I felt more relaxed shooting them, so I think that's the foundation for future improvement. I had access to the tac bay today so I spent most of my time running holster drills, using cover, shooting on the move, etc. Stuff I can't do when I'm on the indoor range. I did shoot two groups at 7 yds on IDPA style cardboard targets just using a marker to make a 1" circle. 12 shot groups were about 3", shooting at a "one thousand one one thousand two" cadence. About 3/4 of the shots were within a 2.25" group. I'm pretty happy with that for starting with something new and having to concentrate more on body mechanics than normal.

[BehindBlueI's]

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb183/Docwagon1776/Mobile%20Uploads/20150327_130121_zpse312d5c4.jpg

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb183/Docwagon1776/Mobile%20Uploads/20150327_130110_zps3edaf7ca.jpg

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb183/Docwagon1776/Mobile%20Uploads/20150327_130133_zpsedea6553.jpg

All 10 shot groups at 7y. (2 magazines of 5, so two shots double action and the rest single action)

Thanks Peaceful John. The PM about breathing really stuck in my head. You can see a few fliers and I called them. Made sure I was leaning correctly, shoulders packed, and breathing correctly. I think breathing was a BIG part of what I was doing wrong. I know not to try to hold my breath rifle shooting, yet I think I was doing in pistol shooting, and definitely wasn't belly breathing before.

The squares are 1" by 1", btw

[Duces Tecum]

Thanks for the feedback!