"One Punch Homicide"

[Gadfly]

Interesting article on bare hand attacks and the danger they pose.

http://www.personalsecurity.us/2015/03/03/fists-deadly-weapons-punch-lethal-assault-might-surprised/

In the article, there is a link to the documentary "One Punch Homicide"... apparently, it is a much larger problem than people think.

The Uniform Crime Report shows that since 2007, bare hands and feet have killed 4,028. That is more deaths than rifles and shotguns combined for the same time period. From what I can tell, it is not so much the punch, as the fall that gets people. Punch a drunk, he falls and smacks his head on the curb, and he is DRT... Did the punch kill him? Or the concrete pavement + Gravity? The courts don't seem to care...

Give it a quick read. It is interesting given all the hue and cry form folks when an "unarmed man" is shot.

-------------
The trailer for "One Punch Homicide"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=yV_nr9AFyZc

[Chuck Haggard]

Over the millennia, getting grounded and then stomped has likely killed more people than guns or cancer.

[ToddG]

I specifically asked my brain doc if my current situation made me at greater risk of death from a single hard blow to the head or face. Her response was, "never get in a car without an air bag and try not to bump your head on anything because it could lead to a stroke or other (paraphrase: deadly effect) much more easily than you think."

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who tries to punch me in the face/head poses a demonstrably reasonable threat of imminent death or serious permanent injury.

[Jeep]

Blows to the head are very dangerous to anyone. I read that in the Trayvon Martin case, the girl who testified that she was talking to Martin on the cell phone just before the attack said that Zimmerman should have just "taken his beating" and not shot Martin.

But kids are dumb. They don't understand how easy it is to badly hurt someone with a blow to the head. And at my age, I'm not about to "take my beating" because the chance it will kill or permanently injure me is far too high.

[Al T.]

Buddy of mine (now deceased), used to laugh at use of force lectures as his extensive upper spine reconstruction left him mobile, but with written instructions to avoid any strikes to the head. The Doctors figured any abrupt manipulation of the cranium could be fatal. He was literally a guy who could shoot you for trying to punch him in the nose. :eek:

[Chuck Haggard]

Even healthy people can be in serious danger. One of the officers at my old job screwed up and leaned into a hook thrown by a big dude, officer was no small guys himself at like 6'2 and 240lbs, but the punch left him with a broken orbit and collapsed cheekbone. Several surgeries to fix all of that. IMHO that meets the definition of "great bodily harm".

[MD7305]

We had a homicide four years ago involving a guy who got punched once and immediately dropped. He wasn't DRT, I think he survived for several hours but was on a vent and brain dead. After his death the autopsy revealed severe bleeding to his brain but otherwise no broken bones, etc. The offender, who fled the scene and couldn't be found, was charged with 2nd degree murder. He was eventually found, given a jury trial, and received 40yrs in prison.

The interesting part of that whole case was when the USMS chased him to his momma's mobile home in TN, he barricaded, and after a lengthy standoff the local sheriffs office used a gas canister that burnt down the trailer. As luck would have it, he wasn't in the trailer.

[45dotACP]

Our beloved former mayor Daley had a nephew who killed a 21 year old kid a few years back with a single punch...the significant difference in weight might have had something to do with that.

He's out of prison now too.

[DamonL]

You guys are describing the "knock out game".

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/teen-knockout-game-continues-harm-innocent-people-article-1.1521185

[Shellback]

I can't find the video anymore but we had a guy sucker punch another guy in the jaw (http://lasvegassun.com/news/2012/nov/30/jury-deliberates-fate-man-accused-1-punch-death/) and he fell and died. Guilty of involuntary manslaughter and 5 years probation. Coroner said guy died when his head hit the ground. Note: Don't talk shit to someone and especially not with your hands in your pockets.

[Gadfly]

My question is, how many folks are killed by the punch causing some brain trauma, vs the victim falling and hitting the pavement and the pavement causing the trauma? I know there is no way to know, but I would be curious. If I punched you and you fell in the lawn, you are fine. If I throw the exact same punch with the exact same force and you hit the sidewalk, DRT... That seems like a fine line.

I was unfortunately involved in an incident where a dope suspect swung at a deputy, and was tasered. Suspect was at a dead run from the deputy when tased. Suspect hit the pavement head first and was DRT. They medics jump started him on scene, and he died again in the ambulance. Jump started again en route to hospital. Was apparently dead for several minutes in surgery... and was jump started again. He finally died the following day from the skull fracture and brain bleeding. The point of that story, had the crook taken one or two more steps, he would have hit the front yard and landed softly in the grass. Accidental death? Yep. Did it stop the family from claiming police brutality? Nope.

How many stupid fights did you guys see or participate in as teens? Just think of what could have gone wrong... Scary.

[BaiHu]

*SNIP*How many stupid fights did you guys see or participate in as teens? Just think of what could have gone wrong... Scary.

The Internet can convince you of becoming an agoraphobe in a heartbeat. Reality and reasonableness be damned.

[ToddG]

The issue that needs to be kept in mind -- pun intended -- is that there are centuries' worth of case law that say a punch in the face does not constitute a lethal threat. The fact that it's a possible outcome under unusual circumstances doesn't normally rise to the level of a reasonable concern for a normal, healthy adult. Especially in states where the standard is an objective reasonable fear as opposed to a subjective one (in Maryland we have both!) you may have a very hard time convincing a jury that one video you saw of a guy getting killed by a punch rises above all the boxing matches and martial arts films they've collectively viewed over the course of their lives not to mention the number of docs, detectives, PT instructors, etc who will easily testify to countless examples of punches to the head that did not cause such a severe risk.

Quick & easy test: How many of the LEOs here work for agencies that consider a single closed hand strike to the head lethal force?

[Peally]

Doubt it's many at all, but that doesn't change my old man's screwed up jaw from working the prison decades ago. I think I've met enough officers with messed up bodies to understand it's not necessarily a trigger for lethal response but it's also not funny if you get randomly injured in the wrong spot.

As with most things lethal force related there's sometimes an odd line between what's realistic and what's the law as seen by our random fellow citizens. Todd brings up a good point, even if it's a decent way to get killed or maimed it's also not necessarily a valid excuse even if justified without a doubt in our circles. I'm a skinny 160 pound guy, if someone sizable lands a decent hit to my head I'm basically guaranteed to hit the ground right there, if not be about as dazed as you can get. Doesn't mean I can go shooting people willy nilly for striking me given a choice of booking ass.

[Gadfly]

If closed fist punches were considered "deadly force", ever cop in the world would be guilty if using it at some time.

Todd hit the nail. "Reasonable"... What is the Reasonably expected outcome of a punch to the face? A reasonable expectation would be a black eye or a bloody nose. Maybe a lose tooth. That is standing up. Once we get to punches thrown on the ground, where the back of your head is hitting with each punch to the front, we enter a whole new realm of what level of injury is reasonably expected to result.

I have thrown very few punches in my time on the job. But I have arm bared, or tackled, or dog piled on a ton of folks. Is that deadly force? I guess if one of them ever hits the ground wrong, I will find out.

[Totem Polar]

I hope y'all are ok with a segue question: anyone have any case law knowledge/experience regarding takedowns, hip throws, etc? If the pavement is the problem, the question is begged. A hard dump by a judoka can really ruin someone's day.

[Chuck Haggard]

The hitting the ground hard thing is why Taser use in police work has been problematic.
All of the "deaths" from Taser use, the legit deaths that weren't excited delirium related or made up crap involving aftereffects of minimal amounts of electricity going through the human body, have been due to falls.
A bunch of the training we did at work was to get guys used to thinking about the environment and where dude would fall, and to not do stupid stuff like Taser a bad guy that was running.

The uncontrolled fall from a Taser hit is somewhat similar to what happens in a knock-out. Throws and such can also easily bring this issue to the table.

[NickA]

I can't find the video anymore but we had a guy sucker punch another guy in the jaw (http://lasvegassun.com/news/2012/nov/30/jury-deliberates-fate-man-accused-1-punch-death/)Note: Don't talk shit to someone and especially not with your hands in your pockets.

Makes a very good case for developing the habit of "talking with your hands" to keep them up and mobile, especially with an unknown.

[Chuck Haggard]

Makes a very good case for developing the habit of "talking with your hands" to keep them up and mobile, especially with an unknown.

Hands above waist when dealing with unknowns is always a good idea.

[Robinson]

The issue that needs to be kept in mind -- pun intended -- is that there are centuries' worth of case law that say a punch in the face does not constitute a lethal threat. The fact that it's a possible outcome under unusual circumstances doesn't normally rise to the level of a reasonable concern for a normal, healthy adult. Especially in states where the standard is an objective reasonable fear as opposed to a subjective one (in Maryland we have both!) you may have a very hard time convincing a jury that one video you saw of a guy getting killed by a punch rises above all the boxing matches and martial arts films they've collectively viewed over the course of their lives not to mention the number of docs, detectives, PT instructors, etc who will easily testify to countless examples of punches to the head that did not cause such a severe risk.

That's what makes this tricky though. Not everyone has the same ability to inflict damage with a punch. A connected punch/strike/kick/throw by a powerful or trained individual can be very dangerous. I often think about the set of circumstances that would make me go for a weapon instead of going hands on. Even though I've trained for a long time in martial arts I know there is no guarantee I will prevail. But still, I am probably more apt to go hands on than go for a gun if I don't see a weapon or multiple assailants. Fights are dangerous events with high stakes for adults. When possible, de-escalation seems smart to me but that's not relevant in cases of outright assault.

What about a situation where someone is with you who is more vulnerable? Easier to justify an armed response then? Seems like it still all boils down to trying to make the best decision on the spot based on the threat and the situation, and hoping you are right.

[HCM]

Death is not the only possible permanent negative outcome of a punch to the head. I had a coworker who was sucker punched in the side of the head while on duty, suffering permanent injury resulting in his medical retirement. The officer suffered permanent blurred vision and headaches. It is serious enough that 15 years later he is still medically restricted from driving.

Regarding the judo throw thing. There is certainly a reason why the first thing they teach in judo is how to fall.
The way we break it down administratively is if the officer is using the ground or a fixed object like the wall like a wall as an impact weapon on an assaultive suspect, as with a wall stun on or a judo throw. we consider it a "hard "technique and a reportable use of force. As opposed to an officer or officers putting a noncompliant suspect against a wall or down on the ground under physical control for the purpose of placing the suspect in a position of disadvantage and facilitate control of the suspect.

In a civilian context, I would think a judo through would be equivalent to a punch.

[Mas]

I specifically asked my brain doc if my current situation made me at greater risk of death from a single hard blow to the head or face. Her response was, "never get in a car without an air bag and try not to bump your head on anything because it could lead to a stroke or other (paraphrase: deadly effect) much more easily than you think."

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who tries to punch me in the face/head poses a demonstrably reasonable threat of imminent death or serious permanent injury.

Todd, a suggestion I routinely make to others in your situation medically. If a situation seems to be in the offing, state loud and clear, "Sir, I have a medical condition. If you hit me, I could die." If he attempts to assault after that, he has manifested intent to deliver more than a bloody nose, and any twelve people with ordinary common sense should be able to discern that.

[Chuck Haggard]

Death is not the only possible permanent negative outcome of a punch to the head. I had a coworker who was sucker punched in the side of the head while on duty, suffering permanent injury resulting in his medical retirement. The officer suffered permanent blurred vision and headaches. It is serious enough that 15 years later he is still medically restricted from driving.

Regarding the judo throw thing. There is certainly a reason why the first thing they teach in judo is how to fall.
The way we break it down administratively is if the officer is using the ground or a fixed object like the wall like a wall as an impact weapon on an assaultive suspect, as with a wall stun on or a judo throw. we consider it a "hard "technique and a reportable use of force. As opposed to an officer or officers putting a noncompliant suspect against a wall or down on the ground under physical control for the purpose of placing the suspect in a position of disadvantage and facilitate control of the suspect.

In a civilian context, I would think a judo through would be equivalent to a punch.

Hence "great bodily harm" and such being part of most laws on these subjects.


Throws and take-downs almost have their own continuum, "how hard" and "into what" are two factors that determine the level of injury to the person thrown/taken down.

I've arm barred hundreds of people over the years, almost all of them suffering nothing more than scrapes if we were in pavement, or getting dirty if we were on mud/dirt/grass. On a couple of occasions at higher levels of assaultive resistance I didn't moderate the take, down on purpose. I recall a broken nose, broken teeth, and a dislocated elbow being thrown in on those cases.. Had I thrown them into a parked car or fire hydrant head first things would have obviously been far worse for them.

[Doug]

Most juries get their knowledge from movies, TV, media. Unfortunately that means people can take beatings for days, MMA fighters, boxers, etc... I doubt this will change.

There is probably not a lot difference from a well-placed shot with a fist then and another similar blunt instrument. The differences many people can't hit worth a damn. But if they can and they're a lot larger than you, look out.

I have been knocked out earlier in my youth by a guy who had 60 pounds on me where my head did hit the back of the curb. No way I would want to take a shot like that today and would do what it takes to prevent it up to whatever force was at my disposal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[uechibear]

Todd, a suggestion I routinely make to others in your situation medically. If a situation seems to be in the offing, state loud and clear, "Sir, I have a medical condition. If you hit me, I could die." If he attempts to assault after that, he has manifested intent to deliver more than a bloody nose, and any twelve people with ordinary common sense should be able to discern that.

I like this idea, and I'd think anyone could use and benefit from it, medical condition or not.

[45dotACP]

I hope y'all are ok with a segue question: anyone have any case law knowledge/experience regarding takedowns, hip throws, etc? If the pavement is the problem, the question is begged. A hard dump by a judoka can really ruin someone's day.

If you're talking about someone who doesn't know how to fall, it can cause a bad injury. I've always considered groundfighting a more gentle way of dealing with an attacker...but one can adjust the brutality as needed. From what I understand, many police departments don't allow chokeholds because (in the case of Eric Garner) the recipient of the hold can die. That does, IMO remove a very effective tool for dealing with a significantly larger assailant, but as we saw in the Eric Garner case...there can be problems if the assailant dies and the headlines scream out "unarmed man strangled to death by police."

As a civilian, I am curious as to whether a choke(triangle, arm triangle, sleeper, guillotine etc...) is considered "lethal force" if I had to defend myself using one? Seeing as I have superior positioning (took the back, applied the triangle, have side control, mount etc...) I suppose there might be an argument made against me that I shouldn't have applied the hold and just held the bad guy? Considering that not even cops are allowed to use a neck hold of any sort, would it be considered deadly force if a civilian was caught using a sleeper hold in a fight?

[Chuck Haggard]

The whole "neck holds are banned" thing is very regional, and based completely on hysteria and in no way anything to do with reality.

In the more than 120 year history of sport judo there has been exactly zero deaths or serious injuries from what is collectively known as Shime-Waza techniques.

Since 1973 when the LVNR was developed by Jim Lindell, there has been tens of thousands of applications by members of the KCMOPD on suspects resisting arrest, and there has never been any injuries or deaths, or any money lost in litigation, due to the use of LVNR. And that's just the record for KCMO.

The real issue in SoCal ref neck holds stemmed from in-custody deaths, which were in almost 100% of the cases that I have looked at due to excited delirium and had nothing to do with "chokes".

For the record, in the Garner cases there was no choke applied. That is rather clear in the video.

The bad rep neck restraints have is based on zero science, and completely on emotion and ignorance.

[HCM]

If you're talking about someone who doesn't know how to fall, it can cause a bad injury. I've always considered groundfighting a more gentle way of dealing with an attacker...but one can adjust the brutality as needed. From what I understand, many police departments don't allow chokeholds because (in the case of Eric Garner) the recipient of the hold can die. That does, IMO remove a very effective tool for dealing with a significantly larger assailant, but as we saw in the Eric Garner case...there can be problems if the assailant dies and the headlines scream out "unarmed man strangled to death by police."

As a civilian, I am curious as to whether a choke(triangle, arm triangle, sleeper, guillotine etc...) is considered "lethal force" if I had to defend myself using one? Seeing as I have superior positioning (took the back, applied the triangle, have side control, mount etc...) I suppose there might be an argument made against me that I shouldn't have applied the hold and just held the bad guy? Considering that not even cops are allowed to use a neck hold of any sort, would it be considered deadly force if a civilian was caught using a sleeper hold in a fight?

My agency doesn't "ban" chokes or neck restraints, however they do specifically consider them to be lethal force. Even at the lethal force level there are some situations where they are appropriate. One might be if you're in a restricted area and don't have a firearm or other UOF tools and you're running out of gas in a physical fight. Another example would be when you were using force to protect a third-party. For example you're in a detention setting or on an aircraft and another person is being assaulted with a deadly weapon such as a homemade stabbing instrument or a significant object like a telephone. Someone down on the ground getting the boots put to them would be another example.

There are situations where deadly force is appropriate but the proximity of the victim or bystanders with make even a contact shot risky. In such cases baton strikes to the head or a choke would be appropriate.

[45dotACP]

The whole "neck holds are banned" thing is very regional, and based completely on hysteria and in no way anything to do with reality.

In the more than 120 year history of sport judo there has been exactly zero deaths or serious injuries from what is collectively known as Shime-Waza techniques.

Since 1973 when the LVNR was developed by Jim Lindell, there has been tens of thousands of applications by members of the KCMOPD on suspects resisting arrest, and there has never been any injuries or deaths, or any money lost in litigation, due to the use of LVNR. And that's just the record for KCMO.

The real issue in SoCal ref neck holds stemmed from in-custody deaths, which were in almost 100% of the cases that I have looked at due to excited delirium and had nothing to do with "chokes".

For the record, in the Garner cases there was no choke applied. That is rather clear in the video.

The bad rep neck restraints have is based on zero science, and completely on emotion and ignorance.

Agreed completely. I think that not being allowed Shime-Waza is foolish...especially considering that it's one of the better unarmed techniques for subduing an assailant. People let their bowels get in an uproar for no reason at all IMO.

For what it's worth, I think the regional rules against neck holds are bullshit. Just curious to know whether they were considered deadly force in civilian on civilian encounters.

[Chuck Haggard]

Neck restraints are dependent on who is doing them IMHO.

Analogy; Impact weapons are not considered deadly force when being used by an officer unless they are doing something like going for a full power head shot. On the other hand, a bad guy coming after the officer with an impact weapon is likely to get shot, and legally so.

Locally, choking someone unconscious, which we see most often in domestic violence assaults, would be considered an Aggravated Battery. Agg. Battery is the felony version of battery and is used when the suspect attacked the victim with a weapon, or caused then serious injury, etc.

The flip side being that officers using a neck restraint are training, and are obviously not using it with the intent to injure or kill the resisting suspect.


Neck restraints by cops trained to use them, and LVNR in particular, are in no way deadly force as they are not likely to cause death or great bodily harm, quite the opposite in fact.

[Gadfly]

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/madison-wisconsin-cop-shoots-suspect-during-confrontation-police-n319136

"Unarmed"... Yet again. 19yr old Black male. Multiple calls to dispatch about a man running through traffic, and the assaulting (choking) someone. Police pursue him into an apartment, and suspect "strikes the officer in the head". No word as to what hit the officer or if there is any injury.

Disparity of force - 19yrs old, 6'4", 200. Vs mid 40s for the officer..

Protests have already begun.

But as the mom describes and innocent young man who would never hurt a fly, we find this.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/buster/armed-robbery/tony-robinson-shooting-890562

Armed home invasion conviction last year for the innocent young man.

From the article, the suspect describes himself in Twitter:
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On his Twitter account, Robinson yesterday included a link to a story about the scathing Department of Justice probe into the Ferguson, Missouri police department. On Thursday, he tweeted, “I need a bae to take care of me when I'm off the drugs.” In other tweets, the teen--whose handle included the name “Tony Montana”--frequently referred to marijuana and described himself as a “Real nigga from the start till the casket shut.” Last June, Robinson made reference to the ankle monitor he was outfitted with after being released on bond in the armed robbery case. “Big bro wants me to come to new york and live with him after my bracelet comes off, hey why not,” he wrote.

In posts this year to his Facebook page, Robinson appeared troubled, writing, “I hate my mind” and “I don’t need help im not crazy.” In a January 19 post, he declared, “My soul is dying.” In a series of messages on February 11, Robinson wrote, “You arent shit to your family when you grow up,” and “Iv been getting lied to my whole life… Mostly by famliy members.” In December, a day after linking to a video showing a police officer applying a chokehold to a man, Robinson wrote, “The only thing cops are getting trained for is to shoot first and ask questions later.”
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Hopefully, the city won't burn, and people won't suffer over this guys poor decision making skills.

[TheCarl]

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/madison-wisconsin-cop-shoots-suspect-during-confrontation-police-n319136

"Unarmed"... Yet again. 19yr old Black male. Multiple calls to dispatch about a man running through traffic, and the assaulting (choking) someone. Police pursue him into an apartment, and suspect "strikes the officer in the head". No word as to what hit the officer or if there is any injury.

Disparity of force - 19yrs old, 6'4", 200. Vs mid 40s for the officer..

Protests have already begun.
-----------

Hopefully, the city won't burn, and people won't suffer over this guys poor decision making skills.

The protests are pretty tepid. I sincerely doubt that anything will burn.

Except a lot of weed.

I've been following this story all weekend, as it's in my home town. "Willy" street is, well, where you would put housing for the granola mines, per Tamara. One commercial arterial road running through long established neighborhoods of housing, with a large proportion of rentals to graduate students and other lower income families. Solidly working class, and more leftist than usual for Madison. Ahem.

I don't think we'll have Ferguson riots. I don't think we'll have the same level of public gathering that Governor Walker induced in 2011-2012.

I do think I ought to watch the local news more and note the people publicly calling for a Ferguson reaction, to put on my personal watch list.

TheCarl

[Jeep]

And wouldn't you know it but he was about to attend college!

[TheCarl]

And wouldn't you know it but he was about to attend college!

He might have, if he wasn't paying off that $186 fine for being convicted of armed robbery.

[Shellback]

Pleads guilty to armed robbery and gets probation? He should of been in the clink.

[Kyle Reese]

Pleads guilty to armed robbery and gets probation? He should of been in the clink.

If he had been incarcerated for this crime, how else would he ply his trade on the streets? More importantly, his imminent departure for Yale would be postponed.

[ToddG]

Todd, a suggestion I routinely make to others in your situation medically. If a situation seems to be in the offing, state loud and clear, "Sir, I have a medical condition. If you hit me, I could die." If he attempts to assault after that, he has manifested intent to deliver more than a bloody nose, and any twelve people with ordinary common sense should be able to discern that.

That certainty makes a lot of sense.

How would you weigh that against specifically telling the attacker that you're the weak gazelle in the herd?

[Sal Picante]

This was in my home town a few years back (I actually still go to the establishment 'cause they serve great burgers!):

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2009-10-16/news/0910140601_1_crystal-lake-wedding-party-trial-next-week

Long and short of it is that two drunk dudes say something, escalate, and one dude decks the other guy. The guy hit, falls, perhaps hits his head, etc. doesn't get up and dies a few days later ... They tried to pin murder 1 on the aggressor, but then reduced it to involuntary homicide...

AT 6'4", I'm happy to say that I'm a coward and I'll follow Mas' advice and GTFO if people are being stupid. I've got a wife and a kiddo on the way... They are priority #1.

[Mas]

That certainty makes a lot of sense.

How would you weigh that against specifically telling the attacker that you're the weak gazelle in the herd?

You'd only be saying it if you had already become the target, and saw the situation building.