New IDPA/USPSA gun advice needed

[DocSabo40]

I shot my first IDPA match this last weekend after a 10 year break, and I want to get back into it. I am a certified Glock fanboy, but my last two gen4 19s have not been acceptable. I currently carry a M&P9c which I shot at the match, but it's a little small even for the new CCP class.

So I currently find myself in the market for a full size 9mm that shoots where I point it and doesn't jam. Contenders are:

1. Glock 34- With my latest experience with my favorite brand, I'm a little hesitant. Glock also hasn't really kept up with the trend in designing guns that fit the human hand. I would have to spend maybe $200 on a KKM barrel for my reloads and some trigger work.

2. M&P 9 Pro- After searching and reading boo coo threads on here, it seems that a small portion of M&P 9s still have accuracy issues that cannot be resolved by a simple barrel swap. That sucks. Otherwise I like this gun. I could count on $100 in APEX parts to fix the trigger.

3. SIG P320- I was actually quite impressed with this gun at the shop last week. The sights are acceptable, the trigger seems nice if a little heavy, and the accuracy seems excellent. Where i wasn't impressed was when we disassembled the gun and removed the trigger group, then put it back together and the gun wouldn't fire. Apparently there is a tiny metal bar that can be disturbed when you reinstall the takedown lever, rendering the gun inop. Now we may have been doing it wrong, so I won't pass judgment on it, but it seemed a little fragile.

Those are really all that I'm considering. I want to end up with something striker fired, with a decent trigger, 2.5" at 25yd accuracy with good loads, and 100% reliable. What do you all think? I appreciate any input. Thanks!

[GJM]

Good choices. I would add the XDM 5.25 to your possible list.

At our local USPSA matches, the XDM is most common, followed by the Glock. Almost never see a M&P anymore, and have yet to see a 320.

If you are set up for Glock already, the 34 is attractive, and between simplicity and available parts, is easiest to work on yourself.

[JV_]

If shooting what you have now isn't an option, I'd get a Glock 17 and call it done.

[Paladin]

I know it isn't on your list but the HK VP9 is sure looking attractive these days super reliable and very accurate. The only thing you'd have to replace would be the sights.

[DocSabo40]

I checked out the XDM 5.25 but just couldn't dig the trigger. It didn't seem to have a specific breaking point to which I could stage the trigger.

The G17 and 34 are on my short list, but so far I have had terrible luck with the Gen4 issues. One G19 gave me BTF every 3 or 4 rounds even after 2 different extractor/ejector combos, and another one gave me more stovepipes than a chimney factory. That being said my old competition gun, a Glock 35, had around 35k through it with only a $5 part breakage. I'm not sure what's changed, but I'm not the impressed as of late. Which is sad, since I'm quite fond of the brand. Maybe I should try a 3rd time to find a reliable one? Or perhaps get another 35 and just download it to minor?

The VP9 is what my wife just picked out. The neighbors house got broken into and she quickly "found religion" about why I keep a loaded gun around. It's a sweet shooter but for competition I would prefer a longer barrel. That being said I can shoot it significantly better than my M&P9c, to the tune of about 20% better scores on my IDPA drills. If they made a VP9L it would be done deal.

Anyone have any experience with the P320? Short of a VP9L it looks close to an ideal match to my criteria. Thanks for the input so far.

[Jesting Devil]

All your choices should work fine. For gaming I like the way the longer guns shoot but I'm not totally convinced theres a performance gain. I shot a 320 a few times and liked it, loved the Pro I shot but don't trust them accuracy wise. Out of 2, I've seen one thats good and one that isn't.

Personally I'd say glock 34 for simplicity sake. Infinite accessories and resources ect. Add sights, grip plug, and polish the trigger (with dryfire). My older gen 3 has done 2in at 22yards with good ammo and the gen 4s seem to shoot tighter generally so I kinda doubt a new barrel would be needed. And any issues that do arise seem to have working fixes already out there.

Please don't take this as a personal attack but I'm not convinced that fitting the hand in feel has much if any effect on actual shootability. For example gen 4 glocks feel excellent with no backstrap but I shoot them notably better with the medium or large one on which "feels" worse.

edit to add:
the 320s I've shot seemed quite good. accurate, smooth, and a nice trigger. One was 9 and one .40 (I don't like .40). Subjectively I like my glock but I haven't seen any issues with the sigs.

[1986s4]

If you looking for a game gun and are not married to the SSP division the 9mm 1911 is very popular. Other game guns are the CZ series if you are open to DA/SA.

[pew_pew]

If you go the xdm route send it to the springfield custom shop and have them do the production competition package to it.

[lightning fast]

Out of those, I'd go with the 34.

For something similar, not on your list: PPQ 5"


Though I recommend CZ to everyone these days.

[pew_pew]

Cz custom has the sp01 shadows in right now. But those aren't idpa legal from what I understand due to weight. But they are THE uspsa production gun right now. Probably makes for a good limited gun too.

[A.G.]

Shadows are legal for IDPA. Accushadows are not.

[Urban_Redneck]

I looked at the FNS longlslide a few months back. I liked the trigger and generous factory magwell.

[JonInWA]

I'd suggest the Glock G34 and/or G17. Another consideration might be a P30L, possibly in the light LEM mode. While I'm not discounting your previous Glock experiences, it's my impression that Glock does ave the issues you've previously experienced pretty well sorted out.

Best, Jon

[Jim Watson]

I don't know why two G19/4s were not acceptable to you, but IDPA, USPSA, and 3 Gun around here are crawling with Glocks; mostly 34, some 17, gen 3 or 4.
My SSP is a Plastic M&P. It seems adequately accurate but maybe I am not a good enough shot to complain about the accuracy. The Master class M&P shooter here doesn't notice any problem with his.
There are some XDs but the other plastic striker fired guns have not penetrated the market here, although I did get to shoot a Walther belonging to a casual user which seemed very nice.

[Failure2Stop]

I made Master with a G19 with AmeriGlo Hack/ProOp sights, but if I was shooting to win state and above matches I would use a G34 with a FO from Dawson or Warren.
This is coming from someone that has made the decision to standardize on Glocks, there are very obviously other very competitive options outside the Glizzock line.

[GJM]

I made Master with a G19 with AmreiGlo Hack/ProOp sights

Awesome!

[PPGMD]

3. SIG P320- I was actually quite impressed with this gun at the shop last week. The sights are acceptable, the trigger seems nice if a little heavy, and the accuracy seems excellent. Where i wasn't impressed was when we disassembled the gun and removed the trigger group, then put it back together and the gun wouldn't fire. Apparently there is a tiny metal bar that can be disturbed when you reinstall the takedown lever, rendering the gun inop. Now we may have been doing it wrong, so I won't pass judgment on it, but it seemed a little fragile.

Hmm I am not following. But if I were to guess it is part of the features to make field stripping safer.

In the newer models, when you rotate the take down lever down, it disengages the trigger completely until you raise the slide lock lever up. The idea is that you lock the slide back before you turn the take down lever back into position.

My opinion on the P320 *in completely transparency I am sponsored by Sig Sauer and Gray Guns Inc*

I'm shooting the P320 full size this season for steel, and probably Bianchi (trying to figure out sights as I would like an adjustable rear). I have three of them, two I purchased, and one provided to me by Sig. Out of the box, the trigger is a little heavy for gun games but very good, in fact for my carry P320C I am not touching the trigger at all. It has a nice break, with enough pre-travel that you can get on it early, and a nice positive reset. It is very accurate, I've seen groups under 2" at 50 yards from some of my friends. It is a little over sprung on the full size gun, but the recoil is long the lines of the Glock 17 (which I've recently been shooting for GSSF) or M&P 9.

Honestly it was quite refreshing to take my P320C out of the box, and just install night sights (Trijicon HDs) before the initial lubrication for the range.

Once it is worked on by Gray Guns, holy hell. It keeps all the all the attributes I liked about the stock trigger, but it is like a little smoother with a 3.5-4.0lb trigger pull. I would put this against a 1911 trigger with the same weight, it is that good. The new guide rod with 1911 spring (which is awesome as they are very common) fixes the issue with it being over sprung. Also the new rear sight that GGI had SPD make, is excellent. He took the input of several shooters (including myself) and made one of the best rear sights I've seen yet.

I really liked this gun before Sig and GGI sponsored me. And my Team gun is amazing, it is the best production gun I've had since I switched from CZ years ago.

[Failure2Stop]

Awesome!

That was around 3-4 years ago, hah.
USPSA M is my next goal, need to buckle down and dedicate training time.
I've been saying that for 4 years...
I did, however, renew my USPSA membership, which is kinda important for that stuff...

Completely off topic: anyone that owns a Glock should absolutely get a membership to GSSF and shoot any local match; very good chance of winning cash and guns.

[ToddG]

If your G19 isn't working, get Glock to fix it.

Then shoot your G19.

[45dotACP]

If your G19 isn't working, get Glock to fix it.

Then shoot your G19.

Word.

I am of the opinion that the "shootability" differences between a G19 and a G17 aren't enough to prevent you from getting to A class in USPSA or above with one.

[JonInWA]

Word.

I am of the opinion that the "shootability" differences between a G19 and a G17 aren't enough to prevent you from getting to A class in USPSA or above with one.

I agree (not that I'm and A class shooter); there are strong plusses for both guns-I really think that it depends which one an individual shooter indexes with, and shoots best, with. Whichever one works best for one person may not be the best for another, due to the subtle- and not-so-subtle differences between a G17 and G19. For me, both work well-but I recognize the differences and how I can make them respectively work for me. If I had to choose one, I honestly don't know which one I'd pick-I'll dodge the issue by saying that I could only answer if all the specific circumstances concerning the situation necessitating such a choice were considered/applied.

And, FWIW, I've had excellent results with my G17, G19s, and G34 in both IDPA and GSSF...

Best, Jon

[cclaxton]

I checked out the XDM 5.25 but just couldn't dig the trigger. It didn't seem to have a specific breaking point to which I could stage the trigger.

The G17 and 34 are on my short list, but so far I have had terrible luck with the Gen4 issues. One G19 gave me BTF every 3 or 4 rounds even after 2 different extractor/ejector combos, and another one gave me more stovepipes than a chimney factory. That being said my old competition gun, a Glock 35, had around 35k through it with only a $5 part breakage. I'm not sure what's changed, but I'm not the impressed as of late. Which is sad, since I'm quite fond of the brand. Maybe I should try a 3rd time to find a reliable one? Or perhaps get another 35 and just download it to minor?

The VP9 is what my wife just picked out. The neighbors house got broken into and she quickly "found religion" about why I keep a loaded gun around. It's a sweet shooter but for competition I would prefer a longer barrel. That being said I can shoot it significantly better than my M&P9c, to the tune of about 20% better scores on my IDPA drills. If they made a VP9L it would be done deal.

Anyone have any experience with the P320? Short of a VP9L it looks close to an ideal match to my criteria. Thanks for the input so far.
A friend of mine bought the XDM5.25 in 9mm and did a trigger job and I thought it was a dramatic improvement. Made me wanna buy one. I sent an email off to him, but if my memory doesn't fail me he said he didn't install a kit but just did a trigger job on it according to an internet video.

I would take a closer look at one with a good trigger. A 34 with a Zev internal is pretty sweet, too.
Cody

[DocSabo40]

Regarding why I didn't like the G19s: they didn't work. They were my 14th and 15th Glocks respectively, so I've had a few including 3 19's over the years. I tried all of the internet fixes, replaced the 336 ejector with the 32074, tried 3 different extractors, and changed out the recoil spring. No improvement. I called Glock and after the usual limpwristing and bad ammo talk, the CSR suggested that I pay to send the gun to them. IF they found something wrong, they would fix it, otherwise I would have to pay to have it returned. I didn't find this acceptable and sold the gun at a loss with full disclosure. In hindsight I should probably have just sent them the gun, but I was disgusted with their CS and made an impulse sell. Live and learn I guess. I still have a Glock poster over my reloading bench, and I'm still a fan, but our relationship is a little rocky :(.

As far as the P320, I don't know enough about the gun to explain it very well. But there is a little metal bar that sticks into the takedown lever hole when the takedown lever is removed. When you reinstall the takedown lever, it pushes the metal bar back and out of position. We had to go up through the magwell and push the metal bar back into place to get the gun to work. Again, we may have been doing it wrong. I had never handled a P320, and the guy at the shop didn't know much about it either.

[rob_s]

What do you own now? Besides the M&P9c?

I went down this path a bit myself, although my reasons for not using the gen 3 G19s in competition want that they don't run(they do, they just all throw brass in my face even with apex extractors) but that the recoil has started to cause pain in my arm and in turn a flinch.

I went looking for a gun I could shoot in both USPSA and IDPA, Specifically Production and SSP, that wouldn't hurt my arm. I wound up with a CZ Shadow Custom and all the gear to go with it (10 mags, two holsters, half a dozen mag pouches...). I like the gun, but having it. On-standard to the rest of the crap I've accumulated over a lifetime of Glocking is bothering me. So I borrowed a G34 and a holster for it, and have a set of Taran sights and a Vogel trigger on the way for it.

For me, I see no point in mucking around with anything other than the gun that provides me with the best scores on match day. It's a game. Other considerations like concealability that led me to the G19 as a carry gun don't apply, nor the criteria that led me to the Trijicon HDs on the carry gun, nor the stock trigger. It's a game, and I want the gun, accessories, and gear that result in the best scores. Yeah, I've seen, and know, people that make master or even beat me in sharpshooter with smaller, dumber, less-modified, guns but I don't really care. Yay, you practice more. Good on ya. In the absence of that, I'm buying the widgets that help me. Nobody at the Masters is using actual woods just to say they did it. Nobody shows up to Wimbelton with a wooden racket. Nobody in the NBA is still wearing Chucks.

Most of the people advocating for using the carry gun in games are of the opinion that to do otherwise would negatively impact their ninja skills. I used to think the same way, but no longer do. So now instead of shooting a $500 Glock 19 from an IWB holster under a T-shirt, I'm shooting a $1300 CZ Custom from a game holster under a vest. And, personally, I have exactly zero concern that when the boogeyman and his 8 friends jump from their van wielding shotguns, that there will be any change to the outcome because of my choice of game gear vs. carry gear.

All that said, if you're ensconced in the M&P world, and you have mags, holsters, etc for them and no concrete reason not to use them other than fear of a lemon, that's what I'd get. Staying in the same family is what has me playing with the G34 and hoping it doesn't hurt my arm vs. continuing with the CZ that I love. This is especially true if you're just getting back into competition shooting. I'd be disinclined to drop a bunch of cash on gamer-only guns and gear until you find yourself regularly attending.

[GJM]

My Dec 14 G4 19 just passed 1,000 rounds with flying colors. Plenty accurate and the reliability I associate with a G3 17 from the glory days of production.

While there will be problem children on account of tolerance stacking in some percentage of guns, I believe the root of most problems was with the extractor. That effected Gen 3 and 4 models. Seems like current 9mm guns and extractors run fine. The model 34, especially Gen 4, requires higher PF ammo to function.

[GJM]

Rob's post crossed with mine. I generally agree with it, including his comment that the G19 recoils more than a CZ SP01 or 34, if that is a consideration. I shot my 19 1,000 rounds since Saturday, and have a cut and some swelling on the inside of my thumb at the base of the big knuckle.

[jdw174]

My IDPA pistol is a Gen 3 34 and I love it. It's outfitted with Dawson fixed competition FO sights. I recently made the jump from SSP to ESP by adding a mini-magwell from ZEV (fits into the IDPA box and doesn't require the use of extended basepads), and a DK Triggers Custom Kit. This last is super good, BTW. I also swapped out to a SS guide rod from Wolff, along with one of their 14lb recoil springs. Great setup all around.

[PPGMD]

DocSabo isn't the only one with a Glock 19 that doesn't work. I have a Gen 3 19 that I purchased in 2010, it has a 1-2% stove pipe rate, along with tons of brass to the face. I've called Glock, they said I have to pay to send it in. I've taken to GSSF matches, and they replaced parts reluctantly. But that hasn't cured the issue, I've pretty much just turned it into a permanent Simunition FX gun, as I have three other Glocks that work fine, including another Gen 3 19 from 2008.

[GJM]

DocSabo isn't the only one with a Glock 19 that doesn't work. I have a Gen 3 19 that I purchased in 2010, it has a 1-2% stove pipe rate, along with tons of brass to the face. I've called Glock, they said I have to pay to send it in. I've taken to GSSF matches, and they replaced parts reluctantly. But that hasn't cured the issue, I've pretty much just turned it into a permanent Simunition FX gun, as I have three other Glocks that work fine, including another Gen 3 19 from 2008.

Get a 2014 or later extractor.

[DocSabo40]

Thanks for the thoughtful replies fellas. I currently own an M&P9c with Idot Pros on it that I'm very happy with. I ended up with this after my last G19 problem child as I just wanted something that worked. I shot it in my first IDPA match back which happened to be a classifier and barely missed expert. A long way from my old master score with my G35, but you gotta start somewhere and here I am.

What I'm in the market for is strictly a game gun. I've got my carry gun and don't really plan to change it. I would just get a bigger M&P, but the full size accuracy issues concern me, and frankly I just don't find them that aesthetically appealing. I have odd taste I suppose, but the Glocks just look better to me.

PPGMD I'm sorry to hear about your G19 issues. I would say just pony up the cash and send it in. I kind of wish I would have done that with my problem G19. If it's not an easy fix by us, then they have to be held accountable and fix that thing. Or just keep it around to silence the hardcore fanboys.

One thing I just considered is getting a 35 again and just downloading it to minor. Have the ejection issues affected the .40 guns? I haven't really kept up with anything but the 9mms.

[PPGMD]

Get a 2014 or later extractor.


PPGMD I'm sorry to hear about your G19 issues. I would say just pony up the cash and send it in. I kind of wish I would have done that with my problem G19. If it's not an easy fix by us, then they have to be held accountable and fix that thing. Or just keep it around to silence the hardcore fanboys.

Honestly I am not willing to pay to fix Glock's fuck up. If Glock wants to call me up, and pay for shipping or send me a new extractor I would be glad to fix it. But at this point that gun is only pulled out when I am going to FoF training.

[DocSabo40]

I can understand that. I'm kind of surprised that new guns in this day and age are still having known issues like this. My car has a few million explosions going on inside of it every day and the auto engineers seem to be able to deal with that. Apples and oranges I'm sure, but it still makes me wonder.

[GJM]

Honestly I am not willing to pay to fix Glock's fuck up. If Glock wants to call me up, and pay for shipping or send me a new extractor I would be glad to fix it. But at this point that gun is only pulled out when I am going to FoF training.

Do you know how to switch out an extractor on a Glock? If so, I'm pretty sure I can get someone from corporate there to send you a new extractor.

[PPGMD]

Do you know how to switch out an extractor on a Glock? If so, I'm pretty sure I can get someone from corporate there to send you a new extractor.

Well Glock says I do, as they sent me a "Certified Armorer" certificate a few weeks ago. :p

I don't really advertise it, as it is sort of the gun version of the GED.

[rob_s]

What I'm in the market for is strictly a game gun. I've got my carry gun and don't really plan to change it. I would just get a bigger M&P, but the full size accuracy issues concern me, and frankly I just don't find them that aesthetically appealing. I have odd taste I suppose, but the Glocks just look better to me.

Aesthetics aside, I'd buy the gamer M&P. Every new purchase is a crap shoot, whether it's the Glock, the M&P, or the CZ. You read the internet long enough and there's problems with everything (the Glocks don't extract, the MP doesn't shoot straight, the CZs break all the time...).

Were I you, I'd get this right here
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_765952_-1_757895_757775_757751_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y

and jam it in a holster like the Safariland 5198
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/1338846188/safariland-5198-paddle-and-belt-loop-holster-with-detent-s-and-w-m-and-pl-m-and-p-pro-9mm-40-polymer-black

[orionz06]

Aesthetics aside, I'd buy the gamer M&P. Every new purchase is a crap shoot, whether it's the Glock, the M&P, or the CZ. You read the internet long enough and there's problems with everything (the Glocks don't extract, the MP doesn't shoot straight, the CZs break all the time...).

Were I you, I'd get this right here
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_765952_-1_757895_757775_757751_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y

and jam it in a holster like the Safariland 5198
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/1338846188/safariland-5198-paddle-and-belt-loop-holster-with-detent-s-and-w-m-and-pl-m-and-p-pro-9mm-40-polymer-black



If the M&P's could hit something I'd agree 100%.


Especially considering that he's got one already.

[45dotACP]

Well Glock says I do, as they sent me a "Certified Armorer" certificate a few weeks ago. [emoji14]

I don't really advertise it, as it is sort of the gun version of the GED.
That made me lol

[GJM]

Honestly I am not willing to pay to fix Glock's fuck up. If Glock wants to call me up, and pay for shipping or send me a new extractor I would be glad to fix it. But at this point that gun is only pulled out when I am going to FoF training.

Your in box is full, extractor on the way in am.

[PPGMD]

Your in box is full, extractor on the way in am.

Thanks, it emailed me a little while ago so I cleared it.

[ranger]

I shoot IDPA north of Atlanta. Our club match is dominated my M&P PROs in 9mm and a mix of Glock 34s and 17s (common to have a couple of Glock employees there). I am confident that a M&P 9 or a G17/34 will take you as far as you want to go. I shot a G34 for years, wanted to try something new so have been shooting a M&P PRO for last few years. I have a CGW CZ P09 on order. I know I would be better off just staying with one platform but I get tempted to try a new shiney object every few years. Still have the G34 - may end up full circle!

[DocSabo40]

Thanks for the input everyone. I ended up getting a blue label G34 from Glockmeister with an 11/14 production date. It has the latest ejector and the extractor didn't seem too tight, so I'm hopeful. But we'll see. I'm putting a cap of $100 for parts to fix it if/when it goes south. I thought hard about an M&P Pro and handled a nice 5" 9mm today, but the infrequent but troublesome accuracy issues kept me away. Also handled a 5" P320 that was sweet, but they just haven't been out long enough to know if we are still in the Beta test. It is my number two pick though if the Glock goes bottom up in the not too distant future.

[Rex Kramer]

Another data point for anyone else deciding. I shot SSP with an M&P9Pro and ESP with a Gen4 G34. Between those two it's 6 one, half dozen the other. Other than the slight adjustment because of the grip angle, they both went bang and had similar (and acceptable) accuracy. Plenty of spare parts and upgrades to be had for both guns. The Glock had an aftermarket trigger as did the M&P (Apex). Both made a world of difference.

With CCP, I'll be shooting a VP9 that is stock save the Dawson sights on it.

USPSA production is a CZ75 (non railed) Shadow. The non target, non accu model Shadows can be shot in SSP, ESP, and USPSA Production. My Shadow is a Target version, so it's illegal in SSP because the slide was milled to fit LPA sights (Bullshit rule, but whatever).


The M&P and Glock are basically retired now. VP9 is for playing CCP at IDPA matches and the CZ is for getting serious with Production and shooting it ESP when there are no USPSA matches around.

[Rack]

Hmm I am not following. But if I were to guess it is part of the features to make field stripping safer.

In the newer models, when you rotate the take down lever down, it disengages the trigger completely until you raise the slide lock lever up. The idea is that you lock the slide back before you turn the take down lever back into position.

My opinion on the P320 *in completely transparency I am sponsored by Sig Sauer and Gray Guns Inc*

I'm shooting the P320 full size this season for steel, and probably Bianchi (trying to figure out sights as I would like an adjustable rear). I have three of them, two I purchased, and one provided to me by Sig. Out of the box, the trigger is a little heavy for gun games but very good, in fact for my carry P320C I am not touching the trigger at all. It has a nice break, with enough pre-travel that you can get on it early, and a nice positive reset. It is very accurate, I've seen groups under 2" at 50 yards from some of my friends. It is a little over sprung on the full size gun, but the recoil is long the lines of the Glock 17 (which I've recently been shooting for GSSF) or M&P 9.

Honestly it was quite refreshing to take my P320C out of the box, and just install night sights (Trijicon HDs) before the initial lubrication for the range.

Once it is worked on by Gray Guns, holy hell. It keeps all the all the attributes I liked about the stock trigger, but it is like a little smoother with a 3.5-4.0lb trigger pull. I would put this against a 1911 trigger with the same weight, it is that good. The new guide rod with 1911 spring (which is awesome as they are very common) fixes the issue with it being over sprung. Also the new rear sight that GGI had SPD make, is excellent. He took the input of several shooters (including myself) and made one of the best rear sights I've seen yet.

I really liked this gun before Sig and GGI sponsored me. And my Team gun is amazing, it is the best production gun I've had since I switched from CZ years ago.

Would love to see a picture of the GGI model.

[DocSabo40]

Well so much for that little experiment. I got all dolled up to go to the IDPA match, only to find that the exact same issues still persist after my 10 year break. Why IDPA does not implement fault lines I will never know. That being said, my pistol performed flawlessly. So that was nice.

[taadski]

Well so much for that little experiment. I got all dolled up to go to the IDPA match, only to find that the exact same issues still persist after my 10 year break. Why IDPA does not implement fault lines I will never know. That being said, my pistol performed flawlessly. So that was nice.

I liked your first version better. ;)

You'll find other clubs where that sort of stuff is less prevalent but the subjectivity of the game is always going to be a thorn in its side, IMO.

[DocSabo40]

That's a shame, it could be a really fun game if the rules were uniformly applied. The classifier is at least a fair shake, I'll be back for that. USPSA exploration is up next.

Now I'm going to drop and do 20 for being so off-topic.

[Frank R]

Walther PPQ M2 5" barrel is a consideration.

[cclaxton]

That's a shame, it could be a really fun game if the rules were uniformly applied. The classifier is at least a fair shake, I'll be back for that. USPSA exploration is up next.

Now I'm going to drop and do 20 for being so off-topic.
All sports use referees and/or judges and/or umpires to make judgement calls and invoke penalties and attempt to establish fair play. THUS, rules will NOT be uniformly applied...even when the referees are attempting to uniformly apply them. Not engaging in any game because you don't like how the game is refereed, is a cop-out.

One of the biggest scandals of the shooting sports occurred in the USPSA. https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?12597-Cheating-Scandal-in-USPSA/

You can find cases of bad calls in every sport, including IDPA and USPSA and 3Gun Nation...that should not dissuade you or anyone from participating. You should know that Safety Officers are shooters just like you and me, and want a fair playing field too. No one that I know is systematically giving preferences to any shooters. I do think that sometimes the best shooters get away with stuff because they are simply moving too fast. IDPA has attempted to fix that by establishing 3 SO's for each stage in a COF, and all of them are watching for rule violations. That helps to prevent ultra-fast shooters from getting away with things. But it can still happen. That is not preferential...there is just no way to make the judging perfect.

Under new rules the SO is required to show you the points of cover for each target. Once you identify that spot on the ground, memorize it. Make sure you don't go past it...the masters can do this almost every time and can repeat it.

Life is unfair...last time I checked. Sometimes it works in your favor, sometimes not.
Cody

[PPGMD]

All sports use referees and/or judges and/or umpires to make judgement calls and invoke penalties and attempt to establish fair play. THUS, rules will NOT be uniformly applied...even when the referees are attempting to uniformly apply them. Not engaging in any game because you don't like how the game is refereed, is a cop-out.

One of the biggest scandals of the shooting sports occurred in the USPSA. https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?12597-Cheating-Scandal-in-USPSA/

Fault lines would eliminate 90% of the judgements calls that IDPA ROs have to make. We joking call USPSA ROs timer stands because almost everything that they do is objective, and people know exactly where the limits are so they rarely break them.

And USPSA dealt with that scandal as swiftly as any board driven organization could. And if you want to get into the stone throwing game, I could mention how rules in IDPA can change days before a major match, typically at the behest of a major sponsor.

[taadski]

Fault lines would eliminate 90% of the judgements calls that IDPA ROs have to make.

Part of the issue with the concept of fault lines is that for it to work correctly, they'd need to be in place (separate ones) for each target in each array from each piece of cover. Our local club looked at the concept a bit and determined that from a practicality standpoint, it's a non-starter.

[cclaxton]

Fault lines would eliminate 90% of the judgements calls that IDPA ROs have to make. We joking call USPSA ROs timer stands because almost everything that they do is objective, and people know exactly where the limits are so they rarely break them.

And USPSA dealt with that scandal as swiftly as any board driven organization could. And if you want to get into the stone throwing game, I could mention how rules in IDPA can change days before a major match, typically at the behest of a major sponsor.
I have seen plenty of arguments with RO's over whether a shoe touched outside of the wood fault line. I have also seen RO's let some shooters get away with putting their feet outside a fault line when going prone or low cover.

There are plenty of rules in USPSA to violate, and plenty of rules in IDPA to violate. I see no value in trying to make one better than the other.

We should always encourage people to participate in either sport or both sports and we should keep it positive. The more people practice safety, safe operations, shooting under the pressure of the timer, shooting while moving or from "cover", and in a variety of arrangements, the better they will be as pistol shooters.

If you have gripes about the politics of the organization or the way they work, that is not the same complaint as whether the sport is fair.

Both sports establish a set of rules and a fair playing field. Referees in both sports attempt to follow those rules and impose penalties fairly. That is my point. There are more opportunities for penalties in IDPA...naturally...because we require use of cover and prioritizing the target engagement (near to far or slice the pie). That means there will be more penalties applied overall. But that doesn't make them inherently unfair.
Cody

[PPGMD]

With a rules violation you can always appeal to the MD. And it is a lot easier to overturn because it isn't a matter of perspective, either your foot was out or it wasn't. There is no ifs, ands, or buts.

Cody, you were the one lobbing stones, you could've said "Fair enough" and moved along. But you didn't you took an extremely rare situation, and attempted to smear the entirety of USPSA.

[Peally]

For the record I've seen people get into heated arguments over fault lines. While I think they'd be handy in IDPA some people are psychotic any way you cut it.

[HCM]

Getting back to guns, I attended op sec training's practical fundamentals class this weekend with Bruce Gray and Jerry Jones. Got to check out Bruce's P320 testbed gun and a production P320 worked over by great guns. The testbed gun is a prototype 320 with a P250 serial number. It was nice but I actually like the production gun with the Gray guns trigger even better. PPGMD described the trigger perfectly. I could certainly see these being competitive in a variety of gun games.

[DocSabo40]

All sports use referees and/or judges and/or umpires to make judgement calls and invoke penalties and attempt to establish fair play. THUS, rules will NOT be uniformly applied...even when the referees are attempting to uniformly apply them. Not engaging in any game because you don't like how the game is refereed, is a cop-out.
Cody

No, it's not. I have no duty to play IDPA or any other game. Not engaging in a game because I don't like how the game is refereed is called using my brain. I tried a system, I don't like it, and now I'll try a different one. Easy as that.

[DocSabo40]

Getting back to guns

Good call. I've been trying to research the P320 more to see if anyone else had issues with rendering it inop upon reassembly, but haven't found anything. At under $600 with night sights, I think it's a pretty sweet deal since the trigger is mosts GTG right out of the box.

[RJ]

...but I actually like the production gun with the Gray guns trigger even better. PPGMD described the trigger perfectly. I could certainly see these being competitive in a variety of gun games.

Any chance you can elaborate on the bold...?

[RJ]

Good call. I've been trying to research the P320 more to see if anyone else had issues with rendering it inop upon reassembly, but haven't found anything. At under $600 with night sights, I think it's a pretty sweet deal since the trigger is mosts GTG right out of the box.

I've been exercising my feeble Google-fu mightily on the P320C the last two or three days, but I've not seen your comment about full dissassembly rendering the FCU inop repeated anywhere...

[HCM]

Any chance you can elaborate on the bold...?

The production gun had a gray guns "trigger job ". I don't know if it had the new style 320 trigger designed to eliminate the pinching some users have reported or the original P250 style. I'll see if I can get a hold of Bruce but it may be a few days for a reply

[PPGMD]

The production gun a gray guns "trigger job "I don't know if it was the new style 320 trigger designed to eliminate the pinching some users have reported.. I'll see if I can get a hold of Bruce but it may be a few days for a reply

I doubt it was the new style trigger, none of the team guns I've seen have the new trigger.

My understanding is that Bruce's gun has an early version of the action job. Along with a very early version of the parts. The team guns and the customer jobs are a more refined, sort of beta vs release version.

[RJ]

The production gun a gray guns "trigger job "I don't know if it was the new style 320 trigger designed to eliminate the pinching some users have reported.. I'll see if I can get a hold of Bruce but it may be a few days for a reply

Thanks, no worries. I sure do like the 320C. I tried it out for size at my local shop, and as a smaller guy (5'7") it really fit my hand well.

[HCM]

I doubt it was the new style trigger, none of the team guns I've seen have the new trigger.

My understanding is that Bruce's gun has an early version of the action job. Along with a very early version of the parts. The team guns and the customer jobs are a more refined, sort of beta vs release version.

Yes, you could feel the difference between Bruce's "test bed" and the regular production gun with GGI trigger job Jerry Jones was using. I asked about the difference and Bruce explained his test bed gun was a prototype P320 with both SIG and GGI hand built prototype parts. I was quite impressed with the final "release" version.

[HopetonBrown]

If shooting what you have now isn't an option, I'd get a Glock 17 and call it done.

I shot my 5th IDPA match over the weekend. I came in 9th overall out of 39 participants. I shot a Glock 17 with Dawson Chargers, Taran Tactical Innovations connector/spring kit, Ghost butt plug and Brass Stacker solid guide rod and 13 lb spring. Ares Gear Aegis belt, and JM Custom Kydex OWB with mag carrier.

It was my first IDPA match shooting SSP, the previous 4 I shot with my Wilson Supergrade in CDP.

Which gun doesn't really seem to matter that much.

I got a procedural for not completely stowing a mag during a tac reload. Good 170 rounds shot on a Sunday morning.

[DocSabo40]

I've been exercising my feeble Google-fu mightily on the P320C the last two or three days, but I've not seen your comment about full dissassembly rendering the FCU inop repeated anywhere...

Neither have I. Which makes me think that we were somehow doing something wrong. Its highly likely I'll have one in the next few days, I'll try to repeat it and snap some pictures if I do.

[HCM]

Neither have I. Which makes me think that we were somehow doing something wrong. Its highly likely I'll have one in the next few days, I'll try to repeat it and snap some pictures if I do.

During this weekends class Bruce and Jerry were using the P320 frames sans slides for demos in lieu of inert guns. During the initial classroom portion one of them had to put a slide on the frame in order to demo trigger control since the trigger can't be pulled without the takedown lever in place as noted earlier. After installing the slide the trigger initially wouldn't fire. They pulled the slide off, re- installed it and the gun functioned fine the rest of the weekend. 30 second fix. As PPGMD noted the slide lock lever must be raised to re-engage the trigger.