Pre-loading the slide release

[seabiscuit]

After Todd pointed out (in another thread (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?1403-Critique-my-FAST)) that there was a significant pause between me inserting the magazine and hitting the slide release, I was thinking and practicing some reloads last night.

I discovered that putting a little pressure on the slide release as I inserted the mag caused the slide to slam forward as soon as the mag was all the way in, almost like auto-forwarding.

Is that supposed to happen? Is there a risk of the slide going forward before the mag is all the way in, thus not chambering a round?

[JV_]

Yes, it's supposed to happen. We covered it, briefly, here:
http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?1421-Why-I-don-t-rely-on-or-employ-the-quot-Auto-forwad-quot-emergency-reload-technique....&p=22905&viewfull=1#post22905

If not done properly, it can induce a stoppage.

[LOKNLOD]

I was first exposed to the technique from Todd. It works well, and is fast, for someone who has spent them time to make it work for them. When I try it, I end up over-pre-loading and dropping the slide early quite often. I also seem to slam the mag harder and end up with exaggerated movement of the whole gun due to that -- which I'm afraid my have more negative effect on the re-acquisition of my firing grip and overall time to next shot than if I was just a bit slower on the slide release. For now, I don't think it's for me - but I've got so many other things to work on with my shooting that it's just not at the top of the list of priorities.

[VolGrad]

I was first exposed to the technique from Todd. It works well, and is fast, for someone who has spent them time to make it work for them.

Same. I saw it first in the AFHF class. It works very well for me but I do see the potential for dropping the slide too early.

[JodyH]

I don't put pressure on the slide release.
I place my thumb on it and let the momentum of the magazine insertion push the slide release up into my thumb.
I'm technically pre-loading the slide release, but I'm not deliberately pre-loading the slide release.
It's a small but important distinction mentally.

[seabiscuit]

Practicing this a little more, I did have one instance where the slide went forward without chambering a round. Of course, that's when I was putting a lot of pressure on the slide release to see if I could make it happen.

I think what I'll do is apply slight pressure to the release, just a little more than placing my thumb on it, as this has never resulted in dropping the slide prematurely for me - sometimes it doesn't drop the slide at all. And if that happens, I can just apply a little more pressure with my thumb, since it's already on the release.

In any case, it makes sense to move the thumb from mag release to slide release as soon as that mag drops free.

[jslaker]

I don't put pressure on the slide release.
I place my thumb on it and let the momentum of the magazine insertion push the slide release up into my thumb.
I'm technically pre-loading the slide release, but I'm not deliberately pre-loading the slide release.
It's a small but important distinction mentally.

Agreed entirely. My thumb is placed on the release firmly enough that it's not going to slip off, but I don't actively apply pressure to it. The impact of the magazine locking into place should provide all the force you need to depress the lever and actually release the slide.

[seabiscuit]

Thanks for the advice. I'll have to try jslaker and JodyH's technique.

[shep854]

I don't touch the slide release until the mag is locked in. While slower than "pre-loading" the release, it's far faster than having to recognize there's a problem, identify the problem, determine how to solve the problem, then rack the slide or clear a jam if the technique doesn't work. Just sayin'...:)

[ToddG]

shep854, I would have to disagree. The whole reason I started pre-loading the release is because it doesn't require any timing. If you're trying to do it right after magazine insertion then either you're waiting longer than necessary -- which admittedly might not cost you enough to matter for most folks -- or you're on the edge and risking premature release. I think there's a Lonely Island song about that...

[shep854]

Todd, I respect your point. Here's hoping the discussion stays on the 'Net (and competition) and never gets tested on a Two-Way Range!

[Slavex]

can't reach it on my CZ so it's a non issue for me. Have tried with other guns and found that it would take a lot of practice to not put pressure on the release. I tended to drop the slide early as a result.

[Al T.]

The impact of the magazine locking into place should provide all the force you need to depress the lever and actually release the slide.

Lightbulb moment for me. Thanks gents! :D

[YVK]

I've tried this after taking Todd's class over a year ago, and I simply can't make it happen. That is, activating the slide release by mere momentum of mag insertion. I continue to actively hit mag release with my thumb.

[JodyH]

I've tried this after taking Todd's class over a year ago, and I simply can't make it happen. That is, activating the slide release by mere momentum of mag insertion. I continue to actively hit mag release with my thumb.
What gun?
I can make pretty much any polymer pistol auto-forward when I insert a magazine.
Resting my thumb on the lever just guarantees it happens 100%.

[shep854]

Actually, this is the first time I've read of this technique. Previous discussion was over whether it's better to use the slide release (on one forum it was rather aggressively noted that the tab was a slide "stop", not "release" and that you should never drop the slide with it. Rather, you should pull the slide back slightly to "unlock" the slide, then let it go to chamber a round.
My position is; go with whatever you're comfortable and confident with, but don't automatically dismiss other techniques--which IS NOT happening here!:)

[YVK]

What gun?
I can make pretty much any polymer pistol auto-forward when I insert a magazine.
Resting my thumb on the lever just guarantees it happens 100%.

Glock 19, standard slide release.

I've never had it auto-forward, although I've never really tried. Maybe you guys are driving your mags in harder; maybe be my frame is stiffer on account of grip reduction (I've heard that relative - comparing to steel - flexibility of polymer frames accounts for auto-forwarding).

[Al T.]

I've never had it auto-forward

I've never had it happen on any platform.

Just finished practicing reloads with dummy rounds and the technique of having the thumb on the slide release works well for me. Time to live fire and see what happens. :)

[ToddG]

It's important to understand the difference between auto-forwarding and pre-loading.

Auto-forwarding relies on the momentum of the magazine's forceful insertion to trip the slide release even if you are not touching it. As we've seen in this and similar threads, while some people say it works for them 100% of the time, the majority do not. The major problem is that the floorplate becomes the de facto slide release and when the slide fails to auto-forward on the first try, many who've come to rely on that technique revert to hitting the floorplate again... and again and again. There is also a direct correlation between stress level and failure rate; as shooters are put under more stress, they make more mistakes in terms of achieving the right angle, force, etc. to make the slide autoforward. Finally, I've seen too many shooters induce stoppages by auto-forwarding.

Pre-loading relies on the thumb to actuate the slide release lever. In other words, it's running the gun exactly the way the manufacturer designed the gun to work (even the Glock was designed to work this way, marketing and training division claims to the contrary notwithstanding). Unlike the traditional method of timing the slide release, the thumb is simply rigid and in contact with the release. When the magazine is inserted, the momentum naturally pushes the gun upward. The slide release moves up, the rigid thumb stays put, and the release gets "pressed" all by itself. It looks and sounds almost exactly like auto-forwarding, but (a) it doesn't induce stoppages and (b) it works even when you insert the magazine slowly.

[beltjones]

It's important to understand the difference between auto-forwarding and pre-loading.

Auto-forwarding relies on the momentum of the magazine's forceful insertion to trip the slide release even if you are not touching it. As we've seen in this and similar threads, while some people say it works for them 100% of the time, the majority do not. The major problem is that the floorplate becomes the de facto slide release and when the slide fails to auto-forward on the first try, many who've come to rely on that technique revert to hitting the floorplate again... and again and again. There is also a direct correlation between stress level and failure rate; as shooters are put under more stress, they make more mistakes in terms of achieving the right angle, force, etc. to make the slide autoforward. Finally, I've seen too many shooters induce stoppages by auto-forwarding.

Pre-loading relies on the thumb to actuate the slide release lever. In other words, it's running the gun exactly the way the manufacturer designed the gun to work (even the Glock was designed to work this way, marketing and training division claims to the contrary notwithstanding). Unlike the traditional method of timing the slide release, the thumb is simply rigid and in contact with the release. When the magazine is inserted, the momentum naturally pushes the gun upward. The slide release moves up, the rigid thumb stays put, and the release gets "pressed" all by itself. It looks and sounds almost exactly like auto-forwarding, but (a) it doesn't induce stoppages and (b) it works even when you insert the magazine slowly.

Awesome explanation. Once upon a time I was trying to time the slide release, but after several malfunctions that cost me some match points, I figured out the "rigid thumb" thing. It works like a damn charm.

[VolGrad]

The auto forward ... I don't rely on this and actually it pisses me off when it happens as it F's up consistency in technique.

However, a point of note I think I actually learned in the AFHF while discussing pre-loading, etc. It might have been in the HACK class I took the next month. Who knows? I just recall making the note in my notebook at some point this spring, then testing it on the range and it was almost 100% on the money. The auto forward can be triggered by slamming the mag in with more force directed toward the rear of the base plate/back of the pistol grip .... on a GLOCK anyway. More pressure toward the front (bullets forward) rarely, if ever, triggered an auto forward event. More pressure on the rear, nearly always.

[jslaker]

The auto forward ... I don't rely on this and actually it pisses me off when it happens as it F's up consistency in technique.

However, a point of note I think I actually learned in the AFHF while discussing pre-loading, etc. It might have been in the HACK class I took the next month. Who knows? I just recall making the note in my notebook at some point this spring, then testing it on the range and it was almost 100% on the money. The auto forward can be triggered by slamming the mag in with more force directed toward the rear of the base plate/back of the pistol grip .... on a GLOCK anyway. More pressure toward the front (bullets forward) rarely, if ever, triggered an auto forward event. More pressure on the rear, nearly always.

Interesting. I'm in the "can generally make a gun auto-forward if I want" camp, though I pre-load as a matter of course.

I index the magazines in my hand such the tip of my index finger is on/near the nose of the tip round, the body of the magazine is pinched between my thumb and middle finger, and the base pad rides on the ball of my palm. I'm sitting at work right now and can't really run through my mag insertion to be 100% sure, but I'm fairly sure that would put most of the force I'm imparting on the basepad toward the rear.

That's something I've never really even thought about before. I've always grabbed my mags that way because A. it lets me use my index finger to better align the magazine with the mag well and B. it allows me to put enough force behind the mag that it'll consistently lock in place regardless of the gun while still letting me simply rotate my weakhand back into place after the gun's charged.

[LOKNLOD]

I know Todd watched me drop the slide too early several times during class, and I’ve played with this technique on subsequent range visits but reached the point where I think there are more important and impactful places for me to prioritize spending my limited practice time.

But for the sake of discussion, here’s where my hang up lies – If I hold my thumb rigid, and the grip firmly, then my thumb can’t really move relative to the weapon in a way that finishes actuating the slide release. One of two things ends up happening for me then: a) I loosen my grip slightly so the whole gun can slip upwards and finish pressing the release against my thumb; or b) I still end up timing the rest of the press but since it’s preloaded I tend to drop it early on an empty slide. The first seems to result in a big exaggerated movement of the pistol and/or slightly compromised firing grip; the second gives me some tap-rack-bang (or often “rack-bang-oops-I-forgot-to-tap”) practice. Neither of those is very conducive to a rapid follow-up shot on the reload for me. I’m missing something in the thumb action, I think?