View Full Version : Extending life of Beretta 96?
65k10
03-01-2015, 10:15 AM
I never thought I'd buy a handgun in .40 S&W, much less a Beretta 96, but I recently found an Elite II in decent shape for about $450 and bit the bullet. While I don't plan on shooting it often, I'd certainly like to keep it around as long as possible. Beyond regularly changing the recoil spring, I'm not sure what else I can do to save the frame. I see Wilson Combat offers a Shok-Buff and a heavier recoil spring, but do those really help all that much in situations like this? Is there anything else I can/should be doing if I want this gun to last?
Just change out the factory recoil spring with an OEM one every 4000-5000 rounds and drive on. I seriously doubt you will ever wear it out. If it breaks, send it off to Beretta. You'd have to do a LOT of shooting to worry about it, I imagine.
You'd have to do a LOT of shooting to worry about it, I imagine.
It's a used gun, and you don't even know the round count of the gun, nor how well it was maintained.
If I were planning to run a 96, I would run a Shok-Buff and make sure to keep a fresh recoil spring in there. The service life of a 96 is a LOT shorter than that of a 92.
It's a used gun, and you don't even know the round count of the gun, nor how well it was maintained.
If I were planning to run a 96, I would run a Shok-Buff and make sure to keep a fresh recoil spring in there. The service life of a 96 is a LOT shorter than that of a 92.
Very true. But it's a little late for the OP to change his mind about buying it. At this point I'd lube it, shoot it and not worry about it. I'm personally not a fan of Shok-Buff's. The OP said he doesn't plan on shooting it much so the service life difference probably ain't gonna mean much. 92's seem to go a LONG time, if a 96 goes half as long, well...you pays your money and takes your chances.
if a 96 goes half as longI think that's being too generous.
I think that's being too generous.
Yikes. I only know one person who has one, a police trade-in, and he hasn't had any trouble and he shoots quite a bit. Sample of one and all. What's your guess on service life of a 96?
65k10
03-01-2015, 11:28 AM
It's a used gun, and you don't even know the round count of the gun, nor how well it was maintained.
If I were planning to run a 96, I would run a Shok-Buff and make sure to keep a fresh recoil spring in there. The service life of a 96 is a LOT shorter than that of a 92.
Agreed and that's why I wasn't totally crazy about the price I paid. The frame itself doesn't have as much anodizing worn off the frame rails (if pics help I have them) as say my trade-in 92D, but that's not saying much. Plus With the gunk on the breech face and carbon build up on the muzzle makes me think it did see some use. I knew this thing was a risk and I figure now the best thing to do is just do what can be done to minimize what future wear is put on it. I'll definitely get a shok-buff and either a standard recoil spring or maybe a #14 one.
65k10
03-01-2015, 11:40 AM
Yikes. I only know one person who has one, a police trade-in, and he hasn't had any trouble and he shoots quite a bit. Sample of one and all. What's your guess on service life of a 96?
In this thread https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?2158-Beretta-96D, Todd says about 10,000 rounds in a 96D. I wish I knew if this applied to the slant dust cover frame guns or the straight dust cover, but I'm just going to assume 10,000 for now.
In this thread https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?2158-Beretta-96D, Todd says about 10,000 rounds in a 96D.
Thanks for saving me the time to search for that thread.
What's your guess on service life of a 96?All of the data points I have are somewhat removed from me, I'll let other speak about it who have closer ties.
This was a good thread to glean some data points:
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?15129-40s
Thank you, sir. My apologies for running my internet pie-hole when I should have kept it zipped.
Dave J
03-01-2015, 12:38 PM
I've periodically run a 96G top end on an old 92, and while I probably won't ever put enough .40 through it to really prove anything, I've used a 14# recoil spring, and a stock "F" mainspring (vs the "D" spring I normally like), to try to reduce wear on the frame. The gun ran well in that configuration, although IIRC I never used it with anything other than 180-gr loads.
Based on what BLR has posted in the past, I think using up as much energy as possible cocking the hammer would have to be a good thing on a 96.
Dave: Could you spell out a bit more why you think a D spring would accelerate wear? I don't quite follow the point--is it that the mainspring is going to slow down recoil?
Dave: Could you spell out a bit more why you think a D spring would accelerate wear? I don't quite follow the point--is it that the mainspring is going to slow down recoil?
Not Dave but, Yes. The heavier F spring will slow down the slide as it comes back and cocks the hammer like a flat bottom firing pin stop in a 1911. The more energy it takes to cock the hammer, the less energy is left when the slide nose box hits the frame.
With the 9mm, the D spring is fine, but having gone through three 96D Brigadiers in a five year period I can understand why the 96A1 with its recoil buffer system is the only 96 in current production.
To the OP, $450 is a very good price for an Elite, you might want to consider dropping in a 9mm barrel. It should fit and function just fine.
Trooper224
03-01-2015, 04:56 PM
... you might want to consider dropping in a 9mm barrel. It should fit and function just fine.
This is the best advice you're likely to get on this issue. Your 96 won't spontaneously explode on you after a box of rounds, but it won't have anything remotely approaching the service life of the 92, there's no getting around that. Since you don't know the history of the pistol, the best thing you can do is change out every spring in it and replace at regular intervals as needed. If you handload, using lighter loads for range practice would be a good idea. I'm not a user of the ShokBuff, but it probably wouldn't hurt in the 96.
Gadfly
03-01-2015, 05:58 PM
HCM and worked in the same agency, but my 96D ran like a champ. I put 2500-3000 rounds through it at FLETC, quaked with and shot it often, ran it through Instructors school and several other schools. Probably 7 to 8k with no breakages or problems. I had over 200 96Ds to perform preventive maintenance on. I changed one broken extractor, and a few trigger return springs (we eventually replaced all trigger return springs with a wolf captured plunger spring), and one trigger bar spring in about 3 years.
That is not to discount HCMs experience. I know a Border Patrol Armorer who said they had a lot of cracked frames at his station. The 96 will wear out faster. Just like a Glock 22, the makers shoe horned a more powerful round into a 9mm designed frame. But my office did not have any cracking issues reported. It was a big, heavy gun, with low capacity given its size, but I never felt unsafe carrying it on duty. Would it be my first choice for duty now? Hell no. But it did not stop me from buying a 96D brigadier off a co worker a few weeks back... Nostalgia got me.
I would stick to what you have been told. Buy 4 or 5 recoil springs, I would change them 3-4k rounds. They are $8 apiece. Just swap them out and be done with worrying. Buy the wolf trigger return spring and should last forever. Buy the current generation locking block for $30 and drop it in, and don't worry about it. That's what I did for my 96.
I think your gun will run fine for a while. Will it eventually break? Yep. All guns will eventually break...
And take HCMs advice on a 9mm barrel. I dropped my 92fs barrel in my 96d gun, and it ran flawlessly with 9mm mags.
Just to add, I never had a malfunction with any of the three issue guns - all were parts breakages including one trigger return spring. Some of that was because I actually shot and the dry fired the snot out of those guns.
I am by no means a beretta hater - I shoot them well and have three of them including an Italian made NCHP trade in. They just aren't a good match for the .40 round.
That said I will eventually buy a 96D brigadier for nostalgia myself. I still have all my holsters and no, my old river belt does not fit, thank you very much! :p
Shelby county TN SO traded in a bunch of them around 2003 or 2004. I tried to buy one at the time but they were not on roster in occupied CA and were being phased out of service so I couldn't get an LEO letter either.
PS- not only will the 9mm barrel drop in, but the 11 round 40 mags will hold 14 rounds of 9mm and function just fine.
45dotACP
03-01-2015, 07:19 PM
Just to add, I never had a malfunction with any of the three issue guns - all were parts breakages including one trigger return spring. Some of that was because I actually shot and the dry fired the snot out of those guns.
I am by no means a beretta hater - I shoot them well and have three of them including an Italian made NCHP trade in. They just aren't a good match for the .40 round.
That said I will eventually buy a 96D brigadier for nostalgia myself. I still have all my holsters and no, my old river belt does not fit, thank you very much! :p
Shelby county TN SO traded in a bunch of them around 2003 or 2004. I tried to buy one at the time but they were not on roster in occupied CA and were being phased out of service so I couldn't get an LEO letter either.
PS- not only will the 9mm barrel drop in, but the 11 round 40 mags will hold 14 rounds of 9mm and function just fine.
This is not helping me stay away from the dirt cheap 96 Vertec at my local gunshop guys...not helping me at all.
This is not helping me stay away from the dirt cheap 96 Vertec at my local gunshop guys...not helping me at all.
One of my 3 is a 92f Vertec, a pawn shop find. Suffice to say after shooting it recently, NickA is, at this very moment scheming to get his his hands on it....
Gadfly
03-01-2015, 07:31 PM
I would not pay serious new gun money for 96, but if I find a deal, I would jump. We had a retired agent pass away. He had two NIB 96D brigadiers in the safe. Serial number show 2003 manufacture. A co worker bought them both from his widow. I traded him a used M&P .40 for a NIB 96D... I think I did well. I can replace the M&P with a used trade in for $350 from buds...
I keep an eye out for police trades from Summit, Cdnn, Buds, etc. Used 96 pop up on occasion for $300.
65k10
03-01-2015, 09:19 PM
I had heard about getting a 9mm barrel and I'm thinking I might go that route. All the .40 I have is a box I bought the day I got the gun and while I ordered some 96 mags, I have a pile of 92 mags and plenty of 9mm ammo, so a barrel swap would be simple enough to go with.
Trooper224
03-01-2015, 10:21 PM
There's a used 96D at my LGS. If it was a 92D it probably would have already gone home with me. I'm issued a .40 but have no interest in owning one, especially a Beretta as I feel the design really isn't up to the task in the chambering.
ToddG
03-01-2015, 10:56 PM
I have not read this thread so I apologize if someone else already gave the correct answer: the only way to extend the life of a 96 is to stop shooting it immediately. Luckily, in many cases they'll do that for you.
5pins
03-02-2015, 08:34 AM
The Border Patrol was also issuing 165gr ammo at the time which didn’t help with longevity of the Berettas.
GardoneVT
03-02-2015, 08:46 AM
I have not read this thread so I apologize if someone else already gave the correct answer: the only way to extend the life of a 96 is to stop shooting it immediately. Luckily, in many cases they'll do that for you.
The 96A1 seems to have cured the ills of the original variant.Its also got a more substantial frame and a built in buffer.
Please point us to some data points on the 96A1 which shows high round count guns aren't having issues. I haven't seen any.
GardoneVT
03-02-2015, 03:49 PM
Please point us to some data points on the 96A1 which shows high round count guns aren't having issues. I haven't seen any.
The 96A1 is functionally a 90-Two .40 under the skin, and i've not run into negative reports about either weapon as yet. Then again, there are no wide scale users of either as yet.
Then again, there are no wide scale users of either as yet.
That's my point. You can't declared that this model cured the issues of the prior version, with no data points.
GardoneVT
03-02-2015, 03:55 PM
That's my point. You can't declared that this model cured the issues of the prior version, with no data points.
The existence of the reinforced frame and buffer at minimum makes the 96A1 a much lower purchase risk then a "traditional" 96 from a feature perspective. Knowing any further means someone with deep pockets needs to buy 30 pistols and a semi trailer load of ammo .
You have no data-points that the modifications are actually a fix, and no data-points that it doesn't introduce any other problems, yet you're declaring it better than a 96. :rolleyes:
GardoneVT
03-02-2015, 04:27 PM
You have no data-points that the modifications are actually a fix, and no data-points that it doesn't introduce any other problems, yet you're declaring it better than a 96. :rolleyes:
With the same information I do, you're declaring its not. :rolleyes:
Jared
03-02-2015, 04:31 PM
OP- If you just want to use it for a range toy, I'd recommend buying 9mm barrel for it and shooting to your hearts content. If that isn't a route you want to take, and you handload, you could load some rather sedate forty in the 135 Power Factor range and again, I think it'd be fine. Definitely easier on the gun than full power 40 in the 170 Power Factor range.
The various problems with full house forty in the 96 has been pretty well documented, both in this thread and others, and I personally wouldn't trust any Beretta 96 to take a great volume of training without suffering some problems unless the ammo was downloaded. (IIRC, a lot of folks have said that after about 10K rounds of full forty, the 96's tend to be clapped out)
That said, you got a pretty good deal on a gun that a lot of Beretta nuts flip for, so you could possibly flip it.
I picked up a 96A1 during an ammo panic so that I could practice with factory ammo when you could find forty but no 9mm anywhere. Not long after I acquired it, 9mm reloading components started to become available again, so I haven't shot the 96A1 that much. Even with the engineering changes made to the 96A1, part of my PM plan for the gun was a new RSA every thousand rounds.
With the same information I do, you're declaring its not. :rolleyes:
Nice deflection, but no I haven't. I'm saying we don't know where it stands. It might be better and it might be worse. We have 0 data points to go on, except Beretta's marketing words.
45dotACP
03-02-2015, 08:41 PM
I seem to recall another thread noting that the SIG 229 DAKs in use by the Texas DPS have a 10k round life expectancy...
65k10
03-02-2015, 09:07 PM
OP- If you just want to use it for a range toy, I'd recommend buying 9mm barrel for it and shooting to your hearts content. If that isn't a route you want to take, and you handload, you could load some rather sedate forty in the 135 Power Factor range and again, I think it'd be fine. Definitely easier on the gun than full power 40 in the 170 Power Factor range.
The various problems with full house forty in the 96 has been pretty well documented, both in this thread and others, and I personally wouldn't trust any Beretta 96 to take a great volume of training without suffering some problems unless the ammo was downloaded. (IIRC, a lot of folks have said that after about 10K rounds of full forty, the 96's tend to be clapped out)
That said, you got a pretty good deal on a gun that a lot of Beretta nuts flip for, so you could possibly flip it.
I picked up a 96A1 during an ammo panic so that I could practice with factory ammo when you could find forty but no 9mm anywhere. Not long after I acquired it, 9mm reloading components started to become available again, so I haven't shot the 96A1 that much. Even with the engineering changes made to the 96A1, part of my PM plan for the gun was a new RSA every thousand rounds.
If the M9A3 turns out to be decent and is a good price I might just dump this one to fund one of those.
ToddG
03-03-2015, 04:45 PM
The existence of the reinforced frame and buffer at minimum makes the 96A1 a much lower purchase risk then a "traditional" 96 from a feature perspective. Knowing any further means someone with deep pockets needs to buy 30 pistols and a semi trailer load of ammo .
Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.
Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.
One great way to get that evidence would be for you to do your next test on one of these, and to make it true to life, you could only use the fire-breathing 155 grain screamers that broke the Border Patrol guns at 10,000 rounds.
After all, if you can become a 1911 fan certainly the next thing you should want to do is fire tens of thousands of ultra hot rounds out of a high bore-axis .40!
ToddG
03-04-2015, 09:07 AM
After all, if you can become a 1911 fan certainly the next thing you should want to do is fire tens of thousands of ultra hot rounds out of a high bore-axis .40!
I vote you off the island.
So you're saying that I should work on the pitch a bit? Maybe accompany it with a Power Point presentation that somewhere close to the hundredth slide concludes by saying "The forgoing shows beyond doubt that real men rock 96A1's and enjoy feeling the pain as the joints in their hands slowly turn to mush!" It could have suitable "tactical" graphics as well!
ToddG
03-04-2015, 07:03 PM
Will the projector be multicam?
OMG if a projector screen is multicam can you see what's projected onto it? Mind. Blown.
Any pictures of broken guns floating around?
ToddG
03-04-2015, 07:47 PM
Any pictures of broken guns floating around?
http://rs1img.memecdn.com/floating-gun_o_752378.jpg
Gadfly
03-04-2015, 08:29 PM
Where can I score some of those sweet mother of pearl grips? I also need some gold plated parts...
5pins
03-04-2015, 09:15 PM
http://rs1img.memecdn.com/floating-gun_o_752378.jpg
How do you know if it’s broken? Oh wait, it’s a Taurus, of course it’s broken.
Will the projector be multicam?
OMG if a projector screen is multicam can you see what's projected onto it? Mind. Blown.
I have to admit that you have pinpointed the metaphysical weakness in my nefarious plan. Nevertheless, since all attending operators will be required to be outfitted in multicam and body armor, it is probably the case that the entire background should be multicam as well to allow the operators to blend completely into the background. While the clarity of the presentation will suffer (I guarantee you it will contain the word "behoove" multiple times, though), clarity is always less important that tactical OPSEC.
ToddG
03-04-2015, 10:34 PM
How do you know if it’s broken? Oh wait, it’s a Taurus, of course it’s broken.
Dude. You stole my line.
Nevertheless, since all attending operators will be required to be outfitted in multicam and body armor...
If a multicam presentation is made to a room full of multicam clad men, does it make an impression?
Chuck Haggard
03-04-2015, 11:02 PM
Dude. You stole my line.
If a multicam presentation is made to a room full of multicam clad men, does it make an impression?
Can anyone see the presentation, or the men in the room for that matter?
ToddG
03-04-2015, 11:16 PM
Can anyone see the presentation, or the men in the room for that matter?
http://scarless1.tripod.com/images/thats_the_joke.jpg
Chuck Haggard
03-05-2015, 12:11 AM
http://scarless1.tripod.com/images/thats_the_joke.jpg
I was adding to the joke.............
ToddG
03-05-2015, 12:20 AM
I was adding to the joke.............
http://36.media.tumblr.com/949ea77e6dcf3659094291939e763f15/tumblr_n865vdE7P91rdzuduo1_1280.jpg
NuJudge
03-07-2015, 05:51 PM
The original poster asked about Shok-Buff and heavier springs, and asked about other things he could do to extend frame life. I am a wordsmith, not a gunsmith. I have shot several 92 and 96 pistols extensively. Most of them are surplused Police pistols. I have tried Shok-Buffs in several 9mm and .40 pistols, and it caused jamming in some 9mm and some .40 pistols. I use them in 90-series pistols they do not cause jams in. After quite a few thousand rounds through a 96G Centurion that had been shot a lot when it came to me, no problems with the frame, but the extractor did break.
Beretta recommends the same spring weight in 9mm and .40 pistols, 13 pounds IIRC. Someone recommended I try the next weight up in the .40, 14 pounds, and I did so. No jams or other functioning problems. I changed all of my 96 pistols to 14 pound Wolff springs.
Something I would worry more about is the locking block. Beretta has used several designs in an attempt to prolong the life of the locking block. When the locking block fails, it may damage the frame. Early design locking blocks sometimes broke rather quickly, some times not after long use. Inspect the block regularly, and if you see a crack forming at the root of one of the wings, change the block. If you have an early design block, change it for a late design. I believe the US Military design life of the block is 20,000 rounds.
One hears a lot more people worry about cracks forming in the slide on 90 series pistols. I've not had a 90 series pistol slide crack. I've not seen a 90 series pistol whose slide had cracked. The 92 design was derived from the Walther P38, and I have cracked a P38 slide, after 25 years of being regularly shot with WWII surplus submachine gun ammo.
TORCH2J
03-07-2015, 09:35 PM
I hate threads like this. I walked into a pawn shop today to find a PD trade in for $369 with nicely glowing Tooltech NS installed. Enablers
NuJudge
05-30-2015, 04:50 PM
The trigger springs are also a wear part, and the suggestion I have received is to change them every 2000 rounds. There is something I think is better than changing out the trigger spring, it is replacing the trigger spring with the conversion that is offered by Wolff:
http://www.gunsprings.com/Semi-Auto%20Pistols/BERETTA/92,%2096,%20AND%20CENTURION/cID1/mID2/dID36
The trigger springs are also a wear part, and the suggestion I have received is to change them every 2000 rounds. There is something I think is better than changing out the trigger spring, it is replacing the trigger spring with the conversion that is offered by Wolff:
http://www.gunsprings.com/Semi-Auto%20Pistols/BERETTA/92,%2096,%20AND%20CENTURION/cID1/mID2/dID36
I like the Wolff spring unit, but you will find out that others really dislike it, though I am not sure why.
Trooper224
06-04-2015, 09:57 PM
I installed the Wolff TCU in two of my pistols. I found it made the trigger return rather sluggish so I reinstalled the factory spring. Beretta recommends replacing the trigger return spring at 5000 rounds. So far I've done this twice with my training gun, the nightstand gun and my carry piece don't get shot enough to worry about it. If the spring in my training gun breaks on the range unexpectedly, big whup.
65k10
06-06-2015, 08:42 AM
I installed the Wolff TCU in two of my pistols. I found it made the trigger return rather sluggish so I reinstalled the factory spring. Beretta recommends replacing the trigger return spring at 5000 rounds. So far I've done this twice with my training gun, the nightstand gun and my carry piece don't get shot enough to worry about it. If the spring in my training gun breaks on the range unexpectedly, big whup.
That mirrors my experience. I even went so far as to use the reduced power units, hoping to keep the trigger pull light. The reset was sluggish as you said and it bothered me enough to just go back to the factory spring. I do have a standard power unit in a 92D which seems fine though.
Stony Lane
06-11-2015, 10:47 AM
Wilson Combat now offers this spring: ($4.95)
Beretta 92/96 Bulletproof Chrome Silicon Trigger Return Spring-Factory Weight
A weak link of the Beretta 90 series pistol design is the potential for the trigger return spring to shear after heavy use and most experts recommend that the factory spring be replaced every 5000 rounds to prevent failure in the field.
This newly designed trigger return spring of enhanced chrome silicon steel is guaranteed against breakage and will not fail in hard use like conventional factory music wire springs.
The traditionally wound spring will not change the smoothness or feel of your trigger like other alternative return springs and will work with all known Beretta 90 series triggers.
That mirrors my experience. I even went so far as to use the reduced power units, hoping to keep the trigger pull light. The reset was sluggish as you said and it bothered me enough to just go back to the factory spring. I do have a standard power unit in a 92D which seems fine though.
Interesting. In an M9 I have, the factory weight Wolff spring gave me a more positive reset, and a lightened Wolff spring lightened the trigger pull without any noticeable effect on the reset.
I suppose it is like rebound slide springs in revolvers. Sometimes they work great and sometimes they really don't.
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