A Cause of S&W M&P9 Inaccuracy

[Jaywalker]

Introduction
I posted this yesterday (on page 26 of a different thread and in slightly different format) whose topics wandered as they tend to do. In order to see if this has any merit I'm posting it now separately. I'm proposing a model that explains some - but not all - of the well-know S&W accuracy problems in order to provide a conceptual framework for those (including me) who have struggled to understand the "why" of these problems. As we say in experimentation, even if it does not prove to be valid, we've at least provided negative data points... If it's valid, then we may have a way forward.

Issue
Smith & Wesson M&P9 pistols (9mm) are pleasant to shoot and have good ergonomics but suffer from accuracy problems that show up at 25 yards but are not always apparent at shorter ranges and are generally not also present in their .40 and .45 caliber models.

Hypothesis
This hypothesis holds that in order to keep recoil forces and slide velocity under control in their lighter-recoiling M&P9, more material is removed in production from the slide than from those of .40 or .45 caliber pistols. This lower thickness is then more subject to distortion when undergoing heat treatment than the thicker slides (this is the heart of this hypothesis). These resulting warped slides observed by others are then the cause of some of the reported inaccuracies. Warped slides explain why barrel replacement is not a fix for all of these pistols with accuracy problems - this has been observed by others. (If it is not true that M&P9 slides are thinner in places than those of .40 or .45 calibers, then this hypothesis fails.)

Possible Verification Test
The hypothesis should be easy enough to test. As I understand it (not having an M&P), you can fit a 9mm barrel in a .40 cal slide. If it performs poorly in the 9mm slide but properly in the 40 slide, then we're on our way to an answer, if not a solution ( a "solution" would be up to S&W). I do recall, however, that Bill Riehl discovered some suspect barrels (chamber concentricity, etc.), so I wouldn't expect those to work well in any case; a barrel may mis-perform in both slides.

Disclaimer
Data on warped slides and non-concentric barrels certainly came from Bill Riehl's testing. Other observations likely came form several combined sources. I'm neither an engineer, nor a gunsmith, so I'd be interested in hearing the no doubt infinite ways in which this is wrong... Please let me know what you think.

(Okay, the format's a bit overwrought, but I've been retired for awhile now, and who could foretell that I'd miss formal written reports?)

[Wayne Dobbs]

The warped slides caused by Meloniting was a big factor, that has reportedly been addressed by no longer doing this process.

I predict this will be an epic thread and I'm now waiting on Bill Riehl to sound off.

[orionz06]

To add to that does anyone know the details on if/when S&W switched who did their finishing? I had been told that some point along the way they switched the company who did the slides. My two best M&P's (2.5"@25 yards or less) were made before this supposed switch and once it was supposedly switched the issues became quite prominent.

[Sasage]

So the PVD finishing process on the 151215 would in theory remedy the issue?

[SecondsCount]

A couple thoughts from a guy who has an electronics engineering background so take it for what it is worth.

1. Why, if the accuracy issue can be attributed to slide warpage, do the 40 S&W versions shoot fine? Is there really more material removed or is this a theory?

2. Does the 9mm M&P really get less accurate at 25 yards? A 1" group at 5 yards will naturally be 5" at 25 yards so are shooters just not realizing that? I can see this being a viable theory if the bullet is not being stabilized by the barrel but am having a hard time thinking that it would show that much at 25 yards.

3. Why is it that the M&P9 seems to shoot really well with heavier bullets. 124 and 147 seem to shoot better than 115. Julie Golob even mentioned that her M&P has a factory barrel and shoots great with 147 grain loads.

4. People have replaced their barrels on the M&P9 with aftermarket barrels and have seen a big improvement in accuracy. I have a good friend who had G&R put a Storm Lake barrel in his M&P and wrote about it here (http://www.tireironblog.com/m-p-accuracy/).

The M&P9 that I had was a newer generation. It shot fine for me with 124 grain reloads. The guy who I traded it off to shot it with 115 grain Federal ammo and it would throw a flyer every 3-4 shots. His Gen3 G19 was shot the same day, with the same lot of ammo, and did not have this issue.

I have a factory 9mm barrel and a M&P40. The 9mm barrel is not a tight fit in the 40 for obvious reasons but I have put it in the gun and it ran fine. I have not tested it for accuracy.

[1slow]

Some have reported changing barrels to no improvement, there seem to be multiple factors involved.

[JHC]

I think the reason we see 1 inch groups at 7 yards is because of people. Good guns would probably do .355" groups at 7 yards. I concluded my 5-6" @ 25 yds (rested) M&P was jacked up because I could set it down and pick up the Gen 4 G17 I was 2K testing at the same time and shoot 2" (rested) with the same loads. But with either of them, shooting at 7 yards, they looked about the same. Other than something about trigger control and the shooter, 7 yds is not very informative to me.

[orionz06]

A paster sized group or smaller at 5 yards is what many strive for. 1" being almost twice that. 5" at 25 is still close to twice what other guns do.

[Wayne Dobbs]

I don't pay much attention to close quarter groups. Until I get a pistol at 15+ yards and test it, I know absolutely nothing. And 15 yards is where I found my first M&P 9 was a turd. I was doing some of my structured B-8 bullseye work with the gun and started noticing that impacts were not matching up with my shot "call" on the shots. Bench testing at 25 yards showed that I was the proud owner of a pistol that was capable of 10 shot groups of 8-10" with anything I tried in it.

[Jaywalker]

1. ...Is there really more material removed or is this a theory?
That's indeed the question. As I mentioned in the last line of the "Hypothesis" paragraph, if slide thickness among the calibers is the same, then the hypothesis fails.

[Rich]

I don't pay much attention to close quarter groups. Until I get a pistol at 15+ yards and test it, I know absolutely nothing. And 15 yards is where I found my first M&P 9 was a turd. I was doing some of my structured B-8 bullseye work with the gun and started noticing that impacts were not matching up with my shot "call" on the shots. Bench testing at 25 yards showed that I was the proud owner of a pistol that was capable of 10 shot groups of 8-10" with anything I tried in it.

I had a pistol that beats it.

Gen 1 P85

[Slavex]

I thought we'd read somewhere that it was all the barrels fault? Didn't Ernest or someone have a barrel that S&W made up that fixed the issue?

[GJM]

When I was in my M&P accuracy throes struggle, I returned numerous 9FS pistols to the factory. Their "fix," which really didn't solve my issues, was to change the slide, barrel or both. Since the slides are not serialized, I couldn't always be sure what they did.

Those problem pistols all shot one or two loads acceptably, while being lousy with other loads. There was no pattern as to which pistol shot which load well.

[JV_]

It's a bit of an assumption to think the issues that caused their accuracy problems 5+ years ago are the same ones causing it today.

They've had a number of barrel iterations, changed the finish process, modified numerous internal parts, etc.

Sometimes, it is like playing whack-a-mole.

[LOKNLOD]

I think the "pleasant to shoot" factor is much higher on the m&P .40s than the 9mm, relative to competitive pistols. If the "material removal for pleasantness" was correct , wouldn't it impact the .40 even more so than the 9?

And does slide material removal automatically translate to pleasantness?

[BLR]

It's a bit of an assumption to think the issues that caused their accuracy problems 5+ years ago are the same ones causing it today.

They've had a number of barrel iterations, changed the finish process, modified numerous internal parts, etc.

Sometimes, it is like playing whack-a-mole.

I strongly disagree.

There are still fleas there. For example, all those pretty, but complex shapes milled into the slide? If you heat treat, melonite, whatever AFTER machining, those are all wonderful places to induce warpage. Thicker/higher mass just masks it to a larger extent.

Then throw in FNC was never meant for alloy steel, like stainless, and you have a whole field of land mines to contend with.

This is what happens when the biddness and markety types do design work.

(And there was a reason I only put up a partial solution online, ;) )

[GJM]

Bill, I have lost track of the technical analysis. It would be very helpful if you summarize, in the cliff notes version, what the problem or problems are, and what it would take for S&W or someone else to fix the problems causing the accuracy issues? Also, why these problems don't seem to effect the .40, .45 and Shield pistols. Thanks in advance.

[Urban_Redneck]

I strongly disagree.

There are still fleas there. For example, all those pretty, but complex shapes milled into the slide? If you heat treat, melonite, whatever AFTER machining, those are all wonderful places to induce warpage. Thicker/higher mass just masks it to a larger extent.

Then throw in FNC was never meant for alloy steel, like stainless, and you have a whole field of land mines to contend with.

This is what happens when the biddness and markety types do design work.

(And there was a reason I only put up a partial solution online, ;) )


FNC- Ferritic Nitro Carburizing ?

[JV_]

I strongly disagree.

So you've looked at a recently manufactured M&P to confirm they have the same issues that they had years ago, and the root cause is still the same?

[orionz06]

So you've looked at a recently manufactured M&P to confirm they have the same issues that they had years ago, and the root cause is still the same?

Maybe Doc can hook him up with one of his new M&P's that are fixed?

[DamonL]

(And there was a reason I only put up a partial solution online, ;) )

I hope they hired you to consult on this problem.

[BLR]

I hope they hired you to consult on this problem.

Nope. Which is why only partial solutions were mentioned. The remedy is fairly easy, though.

Then again, I'm an unrepentant capitalist and Smith ain't a charity :D

[Jakus]

Nope. Which is why only partial solutions were mentioned. The remedy is fairly easy, though.

Then again, I'm an unrepentant capitalist and Smith ain't a charity :D

Can the solution be addressed in the aftermarket setting? Since Smith won't appeal to your sense of capitalism, maybe some of us could...

[Jaywalker]

Can the solution be addressed in the aftermarket setting? Since Smith won't appeal to your sense of capitalism, maybe some of us could...
I wouldn't think un-warping something warped during production would be economically feasible - unscrambling eggs?

In one his his marathon regrets over his inability to get his M&P9 to shoot, DocGKR posted a link to a company that was tooling up to produce aftermarket slides for the M&P. I haven't read anything about them since, though, so you'd have to ask him the status of the project.

If I were in the market for an M&P9, I think I'd buy the M&P40 and install an aftermarket 9mm barrel and try that. If it didn't work you could always sell the 40 and the barrel.

Smith & Wesson could market it that way and call it the "Special Operations Model, with a heavier, more durable slide, for the toughest operations..." People would flock to it and they could continue to admit nothing. Or they might try marketing the slide un-blackened and save a procedure.

[45dotACP]

Smith & Wesson could market it that way and call it the "Special Operations Model, with a heavier, more durable slide, for the toughest operations..." People would flock to it and they could continue to admit nothing. Or they might try marketing the slide un-blackened and save a procedure.

It is likely that those people wouldn't notice the accuracy issues of the original M&P so my guess is that particular dog don't hunt ;)

[DocGKR]

"Maybe Doc can hook him up with one of his new M&P's that are fixed?"

I am unclear what you are referencing.

First, most M&P9c and M&P45's shoot very accurately--typically high 90's with tight concentric groups on par with Glocks, as illustrated by the M&P9c target below:

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b580/DocGKR2/MampP9cRMR07_zps08a7f13b.jpg

We have tried various vendor's stainless steel match barrels in different M&P9's with varying degrees of success--sometimes this helps, other times it does not.

We have tried placing 9 mm conversion barrels in M&P40's--that generally gives acceptable (mid-90's), but not always outstanding (high 90's) accuracy.

Surprisingly, sometimes just swapping different OEM barrels and slides between M&P9 frames can result in an accuracy increase.

Recently, the following was posted by an LE officer at LF:


"I am in the process of getting a new M&P 9 set up for duty use with an RMR. I wanted a completely second gun for this project. I purchased my 1st M&P in 2013 and have been very impressed with the accuracy. My best to date 25 yard group was a 98. This gun shoots mid 90's on a regular basis with a smoothed out stock trigger. I got my second gun 2 weeks ago. It is a new manufacture gun with a barrel that has the 2 dimples on the bottom. The first time out with it I shot some groups around 90 but the overall spread was much larger than my original one. My next time out to the range I struggled to stay in the 90's and had at least 1 flier per group. I am pretty good at calling my shots and to have a 6 ring and an outer 7 ring just didn't add up. I started refreshing myself on the issues of early unlocking and several people on other forums talked about checking barrel hood to slide fit. My original gun that shoots very well had a .006" gap between the barrel hood and slide. The new one was a .008" I swapped barrels between slides and found that the older barrel also measured .008" in the new slide and the new barrel was a .006" in the old slide. This told me it was slightly larger port on the slide. My agency has several brand new un-issued guns in the arms room so I thought I would check the barrel fit on those guns. Of the 6 I checked they were much tighter than either of my personally owned guns. The tightest one measured out at .003" I swapped this barrel into my gun and vice versa. Both now measured out to .005"

Lots of numbers in the above paragraph but did it work. Yes it did. Both guns are now at .005" (slide to barrel hood fit) and they both shoot very good groups. The very next 10 shot group I fired was a 94 and the whole group could be covered by a closed fist from 25 yards. The other gun with my original barrel shot almost as well. The group was much tighter than anything I had shot when it was in the gun it came in. Was the original barrel good enough? For most people they probably wouldn't have noticed, at least not right away. The groups were about 5" and opened to about 8" with the flier figured in. For me it wasn't going to cut it, especially with a gun I am putting an optic on. I am very happy with the accuracy now. This barrel hood to slide fit is acknowledged on several different forums. Not sure why S&W doesn't have it as a QC check at the factory as it would be easy enough to do and would potentially solve the issues that are mentioned all over the internet. I still am sold on the system. I came to the system from a 1911 so I like having the manual thumb safety. I recently pulled out a brand new Gen 4 Glock 17 and shot a 92 with factory sights so they are still building a quality product too. I have a number of people watch the groups I am turning in with my M&P state they need to change. I then shoot a very similar group with their Glock and usually they get the point that it is the archer not the arrow in regards to these 2 platforms."

[orionz06]

I am unclear what you are referencing.

See below. This and countless other posts seem to infer you think they're OK.


Three new, unfired, still in the box M&P9 pistols (ser # HPX....) were accuracy tested today using the following protocol, along with one new, unfired 3rd gen G19 (ser # VKS...), using the following protocol:

The pistols had a visible laser attached. They were then mounted in a mechanical rest. Five rounds of Federal AE9FP 147 gr FMJ were fired into a large white cardboard target backer at 25 yds to establish POA/POI. An NRA B8 target was then placed over the center of the 5 round group. 10 additional rounds were then fired at the B8 target and scored, with the following results:

First M&P9 = 100-3x
Second M&P9 = 94-3x
Third M&P9 = 94-3x
G19 Control = 98-5x

The G19 group was tighter and more concentric; the M&P9 groups demonstrated greater dispersion and unpredictability, however both pistol types offered more than acceptable accuracy for duty or defensive use.

[DocGKR]

I have NEVER stated the M&P9 is fixed, nor did I say the pistols we tested were mine.

What I did do was report the results of the testing we performed. Based on the objective numbers, all the M&P9's fired scores that were acceptable using typical LE agency standards (be able to pass agency qualification, as well as a standard bullseye course with, for example, a 90% or higher score) and nearly equivalent to what new in the box 9 mm Glocks achieved. You may not like that, but it is what occurred.

While a small number of LE officers are highly capable shooters who will not find that level of performance acceptable, sadly the vast majority of officers do not have enough training and ongoing practice, and as a result, are NOT capable of shooting better than their pistol--be it an M&P, Glock, or some other model.

[RJ]

This may be a stupid question, and if so I truly apologize, but:

Is checking the "Barrel hood to slide fit" on an M&P FS9 something that can be done at home with an automotive feeler gauge?

[HCM]

This may be a stupid question, and if so I truly apologize, but:

Is checking the "Barrel hood to slide fit" on an M&P FS9 something that can be done at home with an automotive feeler gauge?

Yes

[mizer67]

Yes

Agree. It's easily done at home, but in my experience, your typical Pep Boys, Autozone, etc. feeler gauge's minimum measurement starts too large.

It's hard to find a typical over the counter feeler gauge that starts under .006" - .004", and for many pistols, save the ones with "generous" barrel to slide fits, this won't cut the mustard. You need one that goes, at minimum down to .0015".

[GJM]

I was just handling my 4566 and 1066. They exude such quality, it is hard to believe the M&P comes from the same family.

[HCM]

I was just handling my 4566 and 1066. They exude such quality, it is hard to believe the M&P comes from the same family.

Bastards happen in the best of families…....;)

Seriously, the inconsistency and continued inability to get the M&P 9 mm right is very disappointing.

I should not have to take apart several guns and play puzzle piece like Tuco in The Good, The Bad and The Ugly in order to get one with acceptable accuracy.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=meP_Ufwj-FY

[RJ]

Agree. It's easily done at home, but in my experience, your typical Pep Boys, Autozone, etc. feeler gauge's minimum measurement starts too large.

It's hard to find a typical over the counter feeler gauge that starts under .006" - .004", and for many pistols, save the ones with "generous" barrel to slide fits, this won't cut the mustard. You need one that goes, at minimum down to .0015".

Excellent excuse to go to Harbor Freight. :)

$3.99, goes to 0.0015":

http://t.harborfreight.com/32-piece-sae-metric-feeler-gauge-32214.html?utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.c om%2F

[BLR]

Excellent excuse to go to Harbor Freight. :)

$3.99, goes to 0.0015":

http://t.harborfreight.com/32-piece-sae-metric-feeler-gauge-32214.html?utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.c om%2F

Not something that you can check with just a feeler gauge set.

I've not seen any M&Ps with worse bbl fit than Glocks. They all flop around in the slide.

If you want a really accurate plastic gun, FN or HK. But they also look like they were designed by a sadistic watchmaker.

[HCM]

Not something that you can check with just a feeler gauge set.

I've not seen any M&Ps with worse bbl fit than Glocks. They all flop around in the slide.

If you want a really accurate plastic gun, FN or HK. But they also look like they were designed by a sadistic watchmaker.

So checking the barrel hood gap is a waste of time ?

[JHC]

Not something that you can check with just a feeler gauge set.

I've not seen any M&Ps with worse bbl fit than Glocks. They all flop around in the slide.

If you want a really accurate plastic gun, FN or HK. But they also look like they were designed by a sadistic watchmaker.

How accurate is "really accurate"? Got to be talking 1.5" max for 5 at 25 yards right?

[GJM]

Over the last few years, I've done a bunch of 25 yard group shooting with the variety of pistols. This includes the generation 4 Glock 9 mm, Walther, PPQ, HK VP9, 320, XDM 5.25 and FNS. Except for my half dozen M&P pistols, they all shot more or less the same with most of the variation I believe subject to differences in ammo. The differences weren't enough to matter in any practical sense that I could discern in careful shooting. I shot crazy good groups at 100 with the Glock, including gen 3 pistols.

[RJ]

Agree. It's easily done at home, but in my experience, your typical Pep Boys, Autozone, etc. feeler gauge's minimum measurement starts too large.

It's hard to find a typical over the counter feeler gauge that starts under .006" - .004", and for many pistols, save the ones with "generous" barrel to slide fits, this won't cut the mustard. You need one that goes, at minimum down to .0015".

Just to make sure I understand, the 'gap' we are talking about is 'here' as pictured by the arrow in this photograph (photo not mine, found on internet)

?

3148

[HCM]

Just to make sure I understand, the 'gap' we are talking about is 'here' as pictured by the arrow in this photograph (photo not mine, found on internet)

?

3148

Yes

[Drang]

Not something that you can check with just a feeler gauge set.
How would you measure it, and is it really the indicator of accuracy problems that the officer quoted above seems to have thought it was?

EDIT TO ADD: And if so, is it consistent across semi-auto pistols?

[JTQ]

What are the competition pros that shoot the M&P using? Are they shooting 9mm or using .40S&W in their M&P's?

[RJ]

Sirs -

Picture of a target from my range visit Friday.

Gun is a Oct 13 build M&P FS9, Apex D/CAEK, with 2,200+ rounds. This was in the middle of the session, shooting Speer GD 124+p HP ammo non-supported two handed at 25 yards.

I am happy with the 83-2X (a personal best for me) but: half of the rounds are off the black, and half the rounds grouped nicely.

Now, noting I am a completely self-taught shooter, who took up the sport 18 months ago in middle age, would you think that:

A - I still have some way to go on trigger control, i.e. the pattern is just reflective of where I am at in my shooting, or

B - This is a good example of the erratic nature of the FS 9, in particular beyond 7 yards, that is the subject of this thread?

?

3158

[Dave J]

Hard to tell.

Are you to the point yet where you can call your shots? If so, do the flyers generally match the calls?

[orionz06]

I agree with Dave. Shoot another gun and see what happens.

It's much easier to diagnose when one gun sucks and the other is good when fired from the same shooter.

[DocGKR]

Have a good shooter test it; also test it off a rest...

[RJ]

^^^ Thanks for the input. Working on both suggestions (I'm in the market for another gun as an alternative, and I will attempt to shoot the M&P off a rest at next opportunity.)

Today, after cleaning and reassembly, I noticed that when I dropped in the barrel into the frame, before I put the recoil spring in, I could wiggle the barrel back and forth a little. Not saying a huge amount, mind you, but it was noticeable. If I get a chance to try the feeler gauge in there, I'll post up what the clearance is.

[mizer67]

^^^ Thanks for the input. Working on both suggestions (I'm in the market for another gun as an alternative, and I will attempt to shoot the M&P off a rest at next opportunity.)

Today, after cleaning and reassembly, I noticed that when I dropped in the barrel into the frame, before I put the recoil spring in, I could wiggle the barrel back and forth a little. Not saying a huge amount, mind you, but it was noticeable. If I get a chance to try the feeler gauge in there, I'll post up what the clearance is.

I have a few samples of some of the more accurate 9mm service pistols out there that you can shoot whenever you want to head up my way. I will guarantee that any of them can easily shoot <= 3" for 10-rounds at 25 yards and you're welcome to shoot my ammo to verify. Some are capable of much less than 3" with the right load.

I wouldn't buy a new gun until you verify yours is a problem. It's too easy to chase hardware solutions and if there isn't one there, you're better off sticking with what you've spent 18 months shooting.

Regarding barrel to hood gap, it's common in stock Glocks and M&Ps. I measured all my Gen 4 Glocks with the stock barrels and they average .003" - .004" for instance. My aftermarket Glock barrels average .0015" to .000", depending on mfg. and how tightly they were fit.

[RJ]

I have a few samples of some of the more accurate 9mm service pistols out there that you can shoot whenever you want to head up my way. I will guarantee that any of them can easily shoot <= 3" for 10-rounds at 25 yards and you're welcome to shoot my ammo to verify. Some are capable of much less than 3" with the right load.

I wouldn't buy a new gun until you verify yours is a problem. It's too easy to chase hardware solutions and if there isn't one there, you're better off sticking with what you've spent 18 months shooting.

Regarding barrel to hood gap, it's common in stock Glocks and M&Ps. I measured all my Gen 4 Glocks with the stock barrels and they average .003" - .004" for instance. My aftermarket Glock barrels average .0015" to .000", depending on mfg. and how tightly they were fit.

Thanks a bunch, much appreciate the offer. I'll PM you when I get a open day to drive up. Won't be this weekend as we have family in for a St Paddy's party.

I totally get what you are saying, The sensible part of my brain agrees with you. Why chase a problem that may exist only between my ears?

On the other hand, the fun-loving devil may care side of me says Hell yes go buy that new P320C!! The modularity of the FCU is totally cool, and by all accounts it is accurate as heck out of the box. Plus, it even is a bit smaller than my M&P but still packs 15 rounds. So I have to deal with that devil as well. :)

[DocGKR]

Might want to wait until they have been in use at least 18 months by a large agency to see how things shake out...

[Rich]

Are the current M&P 9C GTG ?

[psalms144.1]

AFAIK, the M&P9c's never experienced the accuracy issues the FS 9s did...

[vaglocker]

Are the current M&P 9C GTG ?

Mine (sample of one) has been good. Purchased about 2 months ago. Replaced the hinged trigger with the Apex polymer trigger and added some trijicon HD sights. I'm still trying to get used to the trigger and the different POI compared to Glocks so I haven't rung out any groups at 25 yards yet, but at 10 to 15 it is more capable than I am. Lately at 7 yards I've been doing the best shooting I've done in years with it.

[KevinB]

So Bill - want to build me a slide for a M&P - fitted from the get go for a Leupold Delta Point Pro?
:D

[KeeFus]

Are the current M&P 9C GTG ?

They havent displayed the accuracy issues associated with the FS.

[j.d.allen]

Way off topic but, am I the only one wondering why Doc's sigline now says "massive douche" in blue letters?

[JV_]

That's what someone on another forum called him.

[DocGKR]

I am embracing my new identity as a "Massive Douche Mall Ninja Dentist".

[45dotACP]

I am embracing my new identity as a "Massive Douche Mall Ninja Dentist".

If you got it, flaunt it!

Back to topic, if I were to buy a plastic gun before the Austrians got their hooks into me it would be a M&P 9 with a thumb safety. Of course, this was pre-pistolforum days for me at the time and I found a G21 for a screaming deal and decided to hell with it...

Looking back, I suppose either choice would have been better than going out and buying a Taurus...which I had considered at the time (shudder).

[j.d.allen]

I am embracing my new identity as a "Massive Douche Mall Ninja Dentist".

LOL nice...

[DocGKR]

All the M&P9c's I have seen have shot very well--generally better than 9 mm Glocks.

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b580/DocGKR2/MampP9cRMR07_zps08a7f13b.jpg

[jh9]

I am embracing my new identity as a "Massive Douche Mall Ninja Dentist".

For some reason, the grammar bothers me. This is an Oxford Comma Moment.

Massive Douche, Mall Ninja Dentist

or

Massive Douche, Mall Ninja, Dentist

It totally changes the meaning.

Sorry guys. I'll just be over here. Asking the important questions.

[j.d.allen]

This is kind of related because it's related to the M&P 9...anyone know where I can get a factory replacement sear? Not the Apex one, a standard factory sear from Smith?

[DocGKR]

S&W has them.

[j.d.allen]

S&W has them.

But do they sell them to the public? I can't find them

[JV_]

You can always buy it as part of the larger sear housing assembly, Brownells has them in stock.

[ranger]

Surely some people have them laying around after swapping out for Apex? I left my OEM sears at the shop that put my APEX kits in or I would give you one.

[RJ]

On the other hand, the fun-loving devil may care side of me says Hell yes go buy that new P320C!! The modularity of the FCU is totally cool, and by all accounts it is accurate as heck out of the box. Plus, it even is a bit smaller than my M&P but still packs 15 rounds. So I have to deal with that devil as well. :)

Dammit. I stumbled into ANOTHER gun store today, got a chance to fondle a PPQ, VP9 and a P320C side by side...I was surprised how the VP9 fit me...for whatever reason I thought it was bigger. I guess by the tape measure, that was so. I'm going back to that shop tomorrow to take another look at the H&K.

[RJ]

This is kind of related because it's related to the M&P 9...anyone know where I can get a factory replacement sear? Not the Apex one, a standard factory sear from Smith?

You've got mail.

[DocGKR]

Keep in mind the newest S&W OEM sear's are different than the older ones...

[KevinB]

Almost APEX like...

[orionz06]

Almost APEX like...

Aren't the angles closer to Apex than before? I don't wanna put words in anyone's mouth but I thought in the past it was mentioned that Randy was less than pleased with how the new sears look.

[DocGKR]

Much like the Performance Center sear.

[groot nadine]

I agree with Dave. Shoot another gun and see what happens.

It's much easier to diagnose when one gun sucks and the other is good when fired from the same shooter.

here you go...
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i303/BigM-Perazzi/1249mm-2-1.jpg
or,
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i303/BigM-Perazzi/DSC_0217464x640.jpg
or,
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i303/BigM-Perazzi/mp9-1_zpsdf14e441.jpg
and a baseline target.
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i303/BigM-Perazzi/magnus148hbwc27grBullseye2013-03-09001_zps745447ce.jpg:cool:

[j.d.allen]

Anybody know when they switched to the newest sear?

[KeithH]

Anybody know when they switched to the newest sear?

Adventure Outdoors in Georgia started getting M&P9c's with trigger improvements in July of 2014. The trigger on that model is greatly improved. I was able to sample both the old and the new version. The contrast was striking.