.357 Magnum from 3" barrel?

[RevolverRob]

I was just checking the spreadsheet on my inventory (yes...I am at that nerdy). I realized I am low on .357 magnum for defensive purposes. Since I plan to run both my 4" GP100 and 3" M65 with .357, I need a load that performs well at 3" barrel lengths too. My go to used to be 158-grain Gold Dot. But they have been out of stock for ages and the price has jumped up too. I like the 125-grain Gold Dot, but my M65 shoots closer to POA with heavier bullets.

Thoughts on Barnes Vor-TX 140-grain? What about 158-grain XTPs from 3" guns? I worry about XTPs they tend to need goldilocks levels of velocity to reliably expand. Both rounds seem to be in stock with my usual places and are roughly the same price as Gold Dots.

-Rob

[jetfire]

In my limited evaluations, Hornady Critical Duty have worked really well from 3 inch guns.

http://hornady.com/store/357-Mag-135-gr-Critical-Duty/

[Frank R]

The Barnes 140gr. is more of an hunting load with lots of penetration.

[Totem Polar]

For whatever reason, 145 gr Silvertip shoots to POA just like 158 gr .38 in my own 3" model 65. That's my go-to load; the track record is pretty good, by vintage standards.

[Chuck Haggard]

The Silvertip does rather well in testing from past observation.

I think a .357mag has more than enough velocity to make sure the XTPs expand.

[Hizzie]

Corbon says their 125gr DPX load was designed to perform from snub nose barrel lengths. It's not bad at all to shoot.

[Rich]

I was just checking the spreadsheet on my inventory (yes...I am at that nerdy). I realized I am low on .357 magnum for defensive purposes. Since I plan to run both my 4" GP100 and 3" M65 with .357, I need a load that performs well at 3" barrel lengths too. My go to used to be 158-grain Gold Dot. But they have been out of stock for ages and the price has jumped up too. I like the 125-grain Gold Dot, but my M65 shoots closer to POA with heavier bullets.

Thoughts on Barnes Vor-TX 140-grain? What about 158-grain XTPs from 3" guns? I worry about XTPs they tend to need goldilocks levels of velocity to reliably expand. Both rounds seem to be in stock with my usual places and are roughly the same price as Gold Dots.

-Rob


As a S&W fan boy I have lots of love for the GP100.

I bought a 3 and 6 inch. 6incher for deer.

I would carry the 3inch GP100 between 12-1:00 IWB loaded with the FBI load.

Love doing bill drill use FBI or better yet 148WC.

If I went back to revolver as a primary I would carry the GP100 3inch with older grip or a M686 3 inch

[Rich]

The Silvertip does rather well in testing from past observation.

I think a .357mag has more than enough velocity to make sure the XTPs expand.

I found a box of 145gr ST . now they are double the price

[Chuck Haggard]

I found a box of 145gr ST . now they are double the price

Those do seem to cost way more than I remember.

OTOH, regular plain old 140-158gr JHPs also do well from the .357mag, that isn't something I worry about too much as long as it's a quality brand.


Info from Winchester ref FBI protocol tests, 4" barrel;

X357SHP 357 Mag 145 STHP 1290fps

Numbers are for;
"Bare Gelatin" "Heavy Cloth" Wallboard Plywood Steel Autoglass

Penetration 15.3 16.4 18.7 18.2 16.9 15.9
Expansion 0.55 0.58 0.57 0.45 ? 0.56
Ret Wt. % 87 73 98 97 95 81
Ret Wt. Gr. 126 106 142 140 138 117



X3574P 357 Mag 158 JHP 1048fps

Penetration 17 17.7 17.5 18.2 13.9 11.4
Expansion 0.53 0.48 0.45 0.44 0.53 0.681
Ret Wt. % 99 99 100 98 96 83
Ret Wt. Gr. 157 156 158 155 152 131.2


X3576P 357 Mag 125 JHP 1450fps

Only bare gel and heavy clothing tests on the data I have for this round;
Penetration 10.7 12.3
Expansion 0.53 0.54
Ret Wt. % 74 79
Ret Wt. Gr. 93 99

[RevolverRob]

Yea I can't find Silvertips from my usual dealers or anyone for that matter. They are also basically the same price as Gold Dots (~$1/round). I like DPX and essentially the same load straight from Barnes (the Tac-XPD or whatever it's called), but then I'm in $1.5/round territory and that makes me a bit sick to my stomach. I also can't seem to find straight up JHPs from Winchester or Remington, the best I can find is 158-grain semi-jacketed HPs, which I wouldn't feel bad about in the 4" gun, I am unsure of performance in the 3" gun.

The Vor-TX is a "hunting" load, but it's a 140-grain bullet @ 1190 FPS. Is penetration really greater than a 145-grain Silvertip @ 1290?! I know the Barnes bullet is solid copper, but it's also a big expander. I guess I'm having a hard time imaging it punching on through and over penetrating. But then the DPX load is 125@1190 so maybe it would over-penetrate...Sorry I am thinking outloud. The upside to the Vor-TX is, it's a heavier bullet (closer to POA), and around my $1/round threshold.

[LtDave]

For whatever reason, 145 gr Silvertip shoots to POA just like 158 gr .38 in my own 3" model 65. That's my go-to load; the track record is pretty good, by vintage standards.

The Silvertip was the issue FBI .357 magnum load for use in the 3" M13 back in the '80s.

[Totem Polar]

The Silvertip was the issue FBI .357 magnum load for use in the 3" M13 back in the '80s.

That's my understanding as well, for the agents authorized to carry the big boomers. IIRC, the (heh) FBI load was general issue, yes?

Aside from one spectacular failure on a very big guy, I've not read anything that makes me shy away from the silvertip, and that includes the present thread. I'm ok with it for my amateur needs. I've shot it all from my 65, and I like the 145 at 1290 better than the 158s, waaaaay better than the full on SJHP 125s, and better than the 110s. However, I'm reminded of the quip attributed to Clint Smith: "if it's hollow at one end, and says .357 at the other, you're probably ok..." (Roughly)

[Frank R]

Yea I can't find Silvertips from my usual dealers or anyone for that matter. They are also basically the same price as Gold Dots (~$1/round). I like DPX and essentially the same load straight from Barnes (the Tac-XPD or whatever it's called), but then I'm in $1.5/round territory and that makes me a bit sick to my stomach. I also can't seem to find straight up JHPs from Winchester or Remington, the best I can find is 158-grain semi-jacketed HPs, which I wouldn't feel bad about in the 4" gun, I am unsure of performance in the 3" gun.

The Vor-TX is a "hunting" load, but it's a 140-grain bullet @ 1190 FPS. Is penetration really greater than a 145-grain Silvertip @ 1290?! I know the Barnes bullet is solid copper, but it's also a big expander. I guess I'm having a hard time imaging it punching on through and over penetrating. But then the DPX load is 125@1190 so maybe it would over-penetrate...Sorry I am thinking outloud. The upside to the Vor-TX is, it's a heavier bullet (closer to POA), and around my $1/round threshold.

The VOR-TX 140gr. penetrated 22" out of both a snubby and a 4". You can see it on UTUBE.

[Chuck Haggard]

If I couldn't find my preferred ammo I wouldn't lose sleep using regular 158gr JHP/SJHPs

[Rich]

Yea I can't find Silvertips from my usual dealers or anyone for that matter. They are also basically the same price as Gold Dots (~$1/round). I like DPX and essentially the same load straight from Barnes (the Tac-XPD or whatever it's called), but then I'm in $1.5/round territory and that makes me a bit sick to my stomach. I also can't seem to find straight up JHPs from Winchester or Remington, the best I can find is 158-grain semi-jacketed HPs, which I wouldn't feel bad about in the 4" gun, I am unsure of performance in the 3" gun.

The Vor-TX is a "hunting" load, but it's a 140-grain bullet @ 1190 FPS. Is penetration really greater than a 145-grain Silvertip @ 1290?! I know the Barnes bullet is solid copper, but it's also a big expander. I guess I'm having a hard time imaging it punching on through and over penetrating. But then the DPX load is 125@1190 so maybe it would over-penetrate...Sorry I am thinking outloud. The upside to the Vor-TX is, it's a heavier bullet (closer to POA), and around my $1/round threshold.


I suppose you don't live near by me SWF? I would give them to rather than see you pay 50 bucks

[Rich]

Those do seem to cost way more than I remember.

OTOH, regular plain old 140-158gr JHPs also do well from the .357mag, that isn't something I worry about too much as long as it's a quality brand.


Info from Winchester ref FBI protocol tests, 4" barrel;

X357SHP 357 Mag 145 STHP 1290fps

Numbers are for;
"Bare Gelatin" "Heavy Cloth" Wallboard Plywood Steel Autoglass

Penetration 15.3 16.4 18.7 18.2 16.9 15.9
Expansion 0.55 0.58 0.57 0.45 ? 0.56
Ret Wt. % 87 73 98 97 95 81
Ret Wt. Gr. 126 106 142 140 138 117



X3574P 357 Mag 158 JHP 1048fps

Penetration 17 17.7 17.5 18.2 13.9 11.4
Expansion 0.53 0.48 0.45 0.44 0.53 0.681
Ret Wt. % 99 99 100 98 96 83
Ret Wt. Gr. 157 156 158 155 152 131.2


X3576P 357 Mag 125 JHP 1450fps

Only bare gel and heavy clothing tests on the data I have for this round;
Penetration 10.7 12.3
Expansion 0.53 0.54
Ret Wt. % 74 79
Ret Wt. Gr. 93 99


Chuck thank you for posting.

I'm in the belief that the older SJHP and JHP from 357 and 44magnum ( min 4inch barrel) expand well because of the higher velocity. 1200FPS - 1500FPS

[Rich]

If I couldn't find my preferred ammo I wouldn't lose sleep using regular 158gr JHP/SJHPs

Word!

I actually prefer the middle weight loads in 357mag 140-158gr. over the 180 and 200gr

I wonder if a 158gr SWC HP at full power would pass the steel test?

still cant get over the FBI load not making it to the Gell LOL

[LtDave]

That's my understanding as well, for the agents authorized to carry the big boomers. IIRC, the (heh) FBI load was general issue, yes?

Aside from one spectacular failure on a very big guy, I've not read anything that makes me shy away from the silvertip, and that includes the present thread. I'm ok with it for my amateur needs. I've shot it all from my 65, and I like the 145 at 1290 better than the 158s, waaaaay better than the full on SJHP 125s, and better than the 110s. However, I'm reminded of the quip attributed to Clint Smith: "if it's hollow at one end, and says .357 at the other, you're probably ok..." (Roughly)

Rules were that you were supposed to carry .38 +P in the gun, but you could carry .357s as your reload(s). The Special Agent in Charge of the office could authorize carrying .357s in your gun on an individual basis.

[Chuck Haggard]

Word!

I actually prefer the middle weight loads in 357mag 140-158gr. over the 180 and 200gr

I wonder if a 158gr SWC HP at full power would pass the steel test?

still cant get over the FBI load not making it to the Gell LOL

I have zero doubt that a .357mag loading would get right through the steel

[Wayne Dobbs]

The several 145-158 grain loads tested by the Bureau all penetrated the steel without failures. The ranges of penetration were from 18-25" after the barrier.

Interestingly, one of the .38 Special SWC loads tested (not a hollow point), penetrated 10.5" after the steel barrier at a muzzle velocity of 910 fps. None of the 158 SWC-HPs made it through the steel barriers though.

[Rich]

The several 145-158 grain loads tested by the Bureau all penetrated the steel without failures. The ranges of penetration were from 18-25" after the barrier.

Interestingly, one of the .38 Special SWC loads tested (not a hollow point), penetrated 10.5" after the steel barrier at a muzzle velocity of 910 fps. None of the 158 SWC-HPs made it through the steel barriers though.

I wonder if Rem/Fed/win use hard cast bullets when loading 158grSWC in 38spl



Anyone recall a 38spl loading using a 148gr SWC ? also was loaded in nickel case.

[Wayne Dobbs]

I wonder if Rem/Fed/win use hard cast bullets when loading 158grSWC in 38spl



Anyone recall a 38spl loading using a 148gr SWC ? also was loaded in nickel case.

They all use a fairly high antimony content, swaged bullet for their SWC ammo.

[Rich]

RRob
There is a 357magnum load I would use in a snub nosed 357magnum with Steel frame . I keep forgetting about it.

Its the short barrel Gold Dot load 135gr in 357magnum its under 1000 fps out of a 2inch barrel


Granted the 38spl+P 135GD would have less recoil . But I bet the 357magnum load with slightly more velocity would be more likely to expand and would be soft shooting in a 3inch GP100 or S&W 686

[DpdG]

My apologies for dragging up an old post.

I'm trying to find appropriate carry ammo that does not present POA/POI problems in a 3" Mod 65 RB. I'd prefer to avoid 125gr, as I enjoy the forcing cone intact, but otherwise I am more interested in finding something that is close to POA. So far I have shot WWB 38spl 130 FMJ, which was generally POA. AE357Mag 158 JSP was about 4-5 inches high at 10 yards, while Critical Duty 357Mag 135gr was about 2-3 inches left at 10 yards, all assuming a 6 o'clock hold.

Do heavier bullets generally hit higher? Assuming that lighter bullets impact lower, what is the consensus on the 125 GDHP vs. 135 GDHP or some other suggestion? I'd really like to have a standard sight picture instead of 6 o'clock, but I like my K frame's forcing cone intact more than I like the standard sight picture.


Thanks,
Greg

[DocGKR]

The .38 sp 135 gr +P GD is better than the 125 gr GD.

[DpdG]

Doc,

Thanks for that, I really do not want to be stuck with 357/125 gr. For the 135 GDHP, is there a benefit between 38+p versus 357? My primary goal is achieving POA/POI with the fixed sights as opposed to terminal ballistics.

Thanks,

[Totem Polar]

I'm not doc, and never will be, but I do own a 3" RB model 65. 145 silver tip shoots to poa in mine. FBI loading screen are close enough, as well. FWIW.

[Alpha Sierra]

I really do not want to be stuck with 357/125 gr.
Aside from checking POI, how many of them are you realistically going to shoot?

I have the same handgun and about 95% of the ammo that goes through it is my 38 Spcl +P LSWCHP reloads. The other 5% is 125 gr 357 , typically old school Federal or Remington loads, and that's mostly to remember how they feel in the hand. However, if the gun is ever used in anger it will be loaded with 125s

[Trajan]

Aside from checking POI, how many of them are you realistically going to shoot?

I have the same handgun and about 95% of the ammo that goes through it is my 38 Spcl +P LSWCHP reloads. The other 5% is 125 gr 357 , typically old school Federal or Remington loads, and that's mostly to remember how they feel in the hand. However, if the gun is ever used in anger it will be loaded with 125s

K-Frame killers.

How do the 130gr Ranger-Ts stack up to the Gold Dots? I figure since they're .38s they won't kill my forcing cone. Or am I wrong here?

[DpdG]

Thank you both for the info. After checking POI/ function, the carry ammo will likely get fired exactly 40 rounds a year, as that is the off duty quality course. I know that's likely no where near the volume necessary to put the forcing come in jeapordy, but still I'd rather avoid potentially self destructive loadings if possible. Again, the deciding factor right now is POA/POI.

[Alpha Sierra]

K-Frame killers

12 - 24 of them a year will harm nothing

[Alpha Sierra]

Thank you both for the info. After checking POI/ function, the carry ammo will likely get fired exactly 40 rounds a year, as that is the off duty quality course. I know that's likely no where near the volume necessary to put the forcing come in jeapordy, but still I'd rather avoid potentially self destructive loadings if possible. Again, the deciding factor right now is POA/POI.

If you're still worried about it, take a look at Buffalo Bore's 20A/20 (https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=108) load. It's what I put in my Model 64 when I do carry it.

[Jeep]

12 - 24 of them a year will harm nothing

Very true. But might you want a bit more penetration with the growing number of supersized bad guys? 125 grain bullets did well on 125 lb addicts, but will they be enough on a 300 lb thug? I don't carry a .357 often, but when I do I tend to use 158 grain SJHP's. A 140 grain might be a good compromise between the two, but they are harder to find.

[Alpha Sierra]

125 grain bullets did well on 125 lb addicts, but will they be enough on a 300 lb thug?
It's no death ray, but by the accounts of several long time coppers on this board it can certainly be relied upon to get the job done

And if there's still a concern, substitute Gold Dots or Critical Defense for the old school SJHPs.

[JHC]

Very true. But might you want a bit more penetration with the growing number of supersized bad guys? 125 grain bullets did well on 125 lb addicts, but will they be enough on a 300 lb thug? I don't carry a .357 often, but when I do I tend to use 158 grain SJHP's. A 140 grain might be a good compromise between the two, but they are harder to find.

My old 1960 Model 28 seems to have a front sight intended for back in that day when the magnum ammo was loaded much hotter. With the rears cranked as low as they go it still impacts 158 grainers a foot high at 25 yards. Fast 125 grainers much closer to POA. I found that the testing shows that Hornady's 125 grain XTP has tested penetrating pretty deeply. A lot more than most 125 grainers. So I keep some of that around.

[BehindBlueI's]

Very true. But might you want a bit more penetration with the growing number of supersized bad guys? 125 grain bullets did well on 125 lb addicts, but will they be enough on a 300 lb thug? I don't carry a .357 often, but when I do I tend to use 158 grain SJHP's. A 140 grain might be a good compromise between the two, but they are harder to find.

I think so. Does Doc's list have .357s? I don't get to see a lot of .357 shootings with good ammo, so don't have much to add factually. For example, on Critical Defense I have exactly 1 real world shooting. Tough to make much of an authoritative statement based on one. Gel tests seem to indicate that PDX-1 and Gold Dot, probably others, meet the 12-18" protocol in the 125 gr weight from what I see.

Personally, I carry PDX-1 130 gr .38 +P in my LCR and 158 gr .357 in my GP100. The only thing I've ever had to shoot was a pit bull who said hello by biting my forearm, and the .38 worked as advertised. Again, though, sample size of 1.