M855

[witchking777]

Plain and simple,does m855 suck? I understand the improved penetration on a steel helmet at 600 yds,I chose m193 as my bulk/shtf/practice round due to the extended fragmentation range vs m855,less fleet yaw variation due to bullet composition,cheaper price,and same POA/POI as my 55 gr 5.56 GMX,is it really worth me spending a lot of money to stock up on something that offers spotty performance and sucks through the FBI barrier tests?

[Jay Cunningham]

Compared to what?

[TR675]

It sucks when you show up at the range to shoot steel and it's the only thing in your range bag because you're an idiot.

[Jay Cunningham]

It's been mentioned before, but M193 will punch holes in steel more than M855.

[TR675]

I wasn't going to shoot M193, either. M855 will crater steel nicely.

[witchking777]

Compared to what?

M193,M855A1,and MK318 and "Barrier Blind" commercial loads.

[Chuck Haggard]

I wouldn't run out and buy a bunch because "OMG BAN!", no.

I like green tip, but only when it's about the same price as M193. If I could afford all Tac Bonded, GMX, etc. I'd buy that over M855 for sure.

[TR675]

Seriously, if your question is "should I buy M855 because it may be disappearing soon and it does something - anything - so significantly better than Brand X ammunition that I should have a stock on hand just in case Event Y happens," I believe that Doc's threads suggest the answer is "no". M855's selling points are (were) its availability and price.

[DocGKR]

What Chuck said.

[Jay Cunningham]

I've frequently run 62 gr. greentip and it's just fine. That said if people want to buy some off me for exorbitant prices because fear, then time for some capitalism.

[witchking777]

I'm in complete agreement and believe I made the right choice,thanks guys

[philpac33]

I got to the point that I started to exclusively shoot m855. Not because I like it but because it was my least favorite of the stuff I have in my stash(and I had a bunch). I might hang on to what I have left just cuz but have no plans of buying any more, even at "normal" prices.

[SamAdams]

If I might ask, what was/is a normal price for m855 and m193 ?

I ask because I never bought much of it. I'm in a rural area and have focused more on 7.62x51, even in semi auto carbines.

[Palmguy]

If I might ask, what was/is a normal price for m855 and m193 ?

I ask because I never bought much of it. I'm in a rural area and have focused more on 7.62x51, even in semi auto carbines.

Both seemed to be in the low to mid 30 cents/round since things stabilized after the Great Sandy Hook Shortage.

[SamAdams]

@Palmguy - thank you. I appreciate it.

[Hambo]

It seems M855 is up to fifty cents a round from the emails I've been getting form retailers. FWIW I shot M193 for practice and competition and never had much use for M855.

[Kyle Reese]

Some people are paying Ruths Chris prices for Wendy's quality ammo.

[witchking777]

I have some friends that think xm855 is the greatest thing since sliced bread,in my own homemade test that round did the worst against a vehicle vs xm193,5.56 gmx,55 gr sp and fmj reloads,and m67 7.62x39,the gmx penetrated almost as far as the 7.62 round and had an almost as big diameter hole. Correct me if I'm wrong but m193 doesn't suffer from fleet yaw variation correct? Is it possible the the penetrator cone on m855 could help with fragmentation? When we shot it it penetrated the same as my varmint sp reloads,went through the tailgate,hit the wheelwell and exploded into pieces.

[SamAdams]

It seems M855 is up to fifty cents a round from the emails I've been getting form retailers. FWIW I shot M193 for practice and competition and never had much use for M855.

That's what I've noticed, 50- 62.5 cents or so per round.

The mini panic is on it seems.

[Rich]

I wasn't going to shoot M193, either. M855 will crater steel nicely.

I have a 3 inch spinning plate I would shoot using SS109/M855 and it wouldn't make a dent.

Although I have shot stationary mild steel plates and would fully penetrate

[Rich]

M855 = range only for me.
the last LC M855 I bought would group 6moa.

And that was from a sealed can of LC M855 . I bought 2 cans of it back in 2007

Since then I haven't bought any more.

M193 and 50gr TSX is all I need

[DocGKR]

It was not unusual for lots of issue M855 to group at 6 MOA during the height of the ammo production rush after 9/11.

[Jeep]

Almost might as well use a shotgun with those kinds of spreads. Fine, I suppose, for an area fire weapon, but amazingly lousy for a rifle.

[Odin Bravo One]

Certainly it is not an "Optimal" round.

But there are a lot of dead assholes from M855.............

[Jeep]

Sean: Have you seen that kind of lousy accuracy out of 855, and if so what do you to deal with it?

[DocGKR]

Keep in mind that 5.56 mm NATO 62 gr SS-109/M855 FMJ was designed over 30 years ago as linked machine gun ammunition to be fired from the FN Minimi/M249 SAW while engaging enemy troops wearing light body armor during conventional infantry combat at distances of several hundred meters--while not a perfect solution, M855 does perform adequately in this role. M855 was never originally designed for use in rifles or carbines.

[witchking777]

Keep in mind that 5.56 mm NATO 62 gr SS-109/M855 FMJ was designed over 30 years ago as linked machine gun ammunition to be fired from the FN Minimi/M249 SAW while engaging enemy troops wearing light body armor during conventional infantry combat at distances of several hundred meters--while not a perfect solution, M855 does perform adequately in this role. M855 was never originally designed for use in rifles or carbines.

How does the m855A1 fare against mk318 mod 1 for rifles and carbines?

[Chuck Haggard]

How does the m855A1 fare against mk318 mod 1 for rifles and carbines?

We've beaten that subject up rather badly in other threads.

[Odin Bravo One]

Keep in mind that 5.56 mm NATO 62 gr SS-109/M855 FMJ was designed over 30 years ago as linked machine gun ammunition to be fired from the FN Minimi/M249 SAW while engaging enemy troops wearing light body armor during conventional infantry combat at distances of several hundred meters--while not a perfect solution, M855 does perform adequately in this role. M855 was never originally designed for use in rifles or carbines.

Perspective is always a good thing to have...........

Going back and understanding the "why" makes a lot of things clearer.

[Chuck Haggard]

Perspective is always a good thing to have...........

Going back and understanding the "why" makes a lot of things clearer.

Indeed.

It seems lately I have been doing a lot of that with folks. "Tactical history" gives perspective.

[witchking777]

We've beaten that subject up rather badly in other threads.

Hmmm I'll check,do you have any links handy?

[Chuck Haggard]

Hmmm I'll check,do you have any links handy?

Two or three threads ref M855a1 and such on the second page of the ammo forum, just from a qucik glance

[Sigfan26]

Hmmm I'll check,do you have any links handy?

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?3442-M855A1-article-GRAPHIC-NSFW
Probably the best one. Pay close attention to post 23, i believe.

[witchking777]

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?3442-M855A1-article-GRAPHIC-NSFW
Probably the best one. Pay close attention to post 23, i believe.

Thanks man,good stuff in there,pretty much answers my question.

[witchking777]

It seems to me that the Army is letting emotion dictate what ammunition to issue our troops,i.e. it HAS to be an "Army" made round,instead of looking for something that works,isn't expensive,and for pete's sake isn't "green"! Since when did treehuggers command the Army? To my inexperienced eye moving away from a carbine length M4 to a 16-18" midlength setup would fix a lot of the terminal performance issues with current ammo,as well as reducing wear and tear on the rifle itself,mk318 seems to be an excellent choice for general issue,burn up the m855 with SAW's. I'd like to see a face off of 70 gr brown tip and mk318 through various barriers.

[DocGKR]

Technically M855A1 is not even an "Army made round", since they stole the design: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?14621-gov-loses-lawsuit-ref-M855a1-bullet. Big Army certainly exhibits a lot of stupidity around small arms procurement and training...

[Chuck Haggard]

I think if they left M855 and tracer for the belt feds, and MK318, some tracer and AP for the carbines, and maybe a match round for the DMRs, we could have saved MILLIONS of dollars and been way better off than we are now.

[Jeep]

Big Army certainly exhibits a lot of stupidity around small arms procurement and training...

Among other things . . . .

[ranger]

I think if they left M855 and tracer for the belt feds, and MK318, some tracer and AP for the carbines, and maybe a match round for the DMRs, we could have saved MILLIONS of dollars and been way better off than we are now.

Well stated

[VT1032]

Big Army certainly exhibits a lot of stupidity...

There, fixed it for you...

[witchking777]

I think if they left M855 and tracer for the belt feds, and MK318, some tracer and AP for the carbines, and maybe a match round for the DMRs, we could have saved MILLIONS of dollars and been way better off than we are now.

Agree completely.

[David Armstrong]

I've bought and used plenty of 855 due to price, but my "fighting round" has been and will continue to be 193. Of course, I also continue to use the full M16 length barrel and reject the M4 length stuff.

[DocGKR]

The short barrels work much better with bonded bullets and all copper bullets.

[Rich]

Almost might as well use a shotgun with those kinds of spreads. Fine, I suppose, for an area fire weapon, but amazingly lousy for a rifle.

4MOA carbine shooting 6MOA M855

[Rich]

I think if they left M855 and tracer for the belt feds, and MK318, some tracer and AP for the carbines, and maybe a match round for the DMRs, we could have saved MILLIONS of dollars and been way better off than we are now.

Couldn't we just use the Optimized Brown Tip/AP for MK18,M4,M16A? - SPR & DMR

Belt fed could use ss109 bullet /M855/M856

[Rich]

I've bought and used plenty of 855 due to price, but my "fighting round" has been and will continue to be 193. Of course, I also continue to use the full M16 length barrel and reject the M4 length stuff.

20inch rifles kind a suck for LE use and HD. Granted 20inch barrel helps / add more velocity for frag dependent loads like M193/SS109/MK262/75gr TAP

Even though I have 2 -14.5 Carbines I`m not to keen on using them for HD either.

I would give them up in favor of a shorter barrel 10.5 for 5.56mm or better yet 9 inch barrel chamber in 6.8

[David Armstrong]

20inch rifles kind a suck for LE use and HD. Granted 20inch barrel helps / add more velocity for frag dependent loads like M193/SS109/MK262/75gr TAP

Even though I have 2 -14.5 Carbines I`m not to keen on using them for HD either.

I would give them up in favor of a shorter barrel 10.5 for 5.56mm or better yet 9 inch barrel chamber in 6.8
Guess it is sometimes a matter of perspective and such. I've never found any real disadvantage to the longer tubes through a lot of training along the urban carbine line of instruction. Of course I'm also used to using a shotgun with an 18'-20" tube also. The deputy son-in-law, to whom I passed along the AR, keeps getting ribbed about it from some of the other officers who want to know what he is doing with that old antique alonside their spiffy new M4s with the optics and lights and such, but he still keeps posting top scores in the department with the darned thing, so he just grins and keeps on trucking with it.

[Chuck Haggard]

Couldn't we just use the Optimized Brown Tip/AP for MK18,M4,M16A? - SPR & DMR

Belt fed could use ss109 bullet /M855/M856

That works too, but I kinda like a bullet that still has some lead in it because "F you hippies!".

[Chuck Haggard]

Guess it is sometimes a matter of perspective and such. I've never found any real disadvantage to the longer tubes through a lot of training along the urban carbine line of instruction. Of course I'm also used to using a shotgun with an 18'-20" tube also. The deputy son-in-law, to whom I passed along the AR, keeps getting ribbed about it from some of the other officers who want to know what he is doing with that old antique alonside their spiffy new M4s with the optics and lights and such, but he still keeps posting top scores in the department with the darned thing, so he just grins and keeps on trucking with it.

All of my time in green as with an M16a1, and much of my early time in SWAT. The longer gun is not that big a deal to work with.

[witchking777]

That works too, but I kinda like a bullet that still has some lead in it because "F you hippies!".

Lol lead is good food for treehuggers as well!

[DocGKR]

I had no problems running a 16" AR15 indoors and it is a lot more versatile out of doors; about the only time I really like a short barrel is if it is going to have a dedicated suppressor on it--then it ends up being about the same length as a 6920 anyway...

[Chuck Haggard]

I had no problems running a 16" AR15 indoors and it is a lot more versatile out of doors; about the only time I really like a short barrel is if it is going to have a dedicated suppressor on it--then it ends up being about the same length as a 6920 anyway...

I literally did thousands of entries with a 16" gun, if I wasn't driving a shield and running pistols. Never had an issue indoors running a 16" carbine. Ran a 16" Sim carbine at DARC when I was going through the LECTC, Uncle Rich likes to throw monkey wrenches into the works and the shoot house their can be rather tight quarters, again, no issues.

[Unobtanium]

In 2010, I knew:
You really need a 10.3" SBR for use inside of vehicles and indoors.
By 2015, I've learned:
I prefer a 14.5-16" carbine for use in and around vehicles.

My opinion changed when I stopped watching YouTube and began training with Kyle Lamb and others. It's a training issue, not a "physical issue" 99% of the time, with the short guns. I really like the longer barrels in a vehicle because a) They aren't a maneuverability issue if you handle it correctly, b) that length is actually a safety feature that PREVENTS you from sweeping yourself and, although less effectively, your passenger/driver, c) mo barrel means mo burned powder means mo velocity means less boom boom inside that confined space.

The one case I like a 10.3" is when I run a suppressor, dedicated. But even then, the 16" with a mini can isn't a problem, and that's another thing. I STRONGLY prefer mini cans to full-size suppressors. Again, after pulling my head out of the catalogs and off the forums and away from the Titsworth numbers, and actually began USING the gear.

[DocGKR]

Amazing how that works out...

[Rich]

In 2010, I knew:
You really need a 10.3" SBR for use inside of vehicles and indoors.
By 2015, I've learned:
I prefer a 14.5-16" carbine for use in and around vehicles.

My opinion changed when I stopped watching YouTube and began training with Kyle Lamb and others. It's a training issue, not a "physical issue" 99% of the time, with the short guns. I really like the longer barrels in a vehicle because a) They aren't a maneuverability issue if you handle it correctly, b) that length is actually a safety feature that PREVENTS you from sweeping yourself and, although less effectively, your passenger/driver, c) mo barrel means mo burned powder means mo velocity means less boom boom inside that confined space.

The one case I like a 10.3" is when I run a suppressor, dedicated. But even then, the 16" with a mini can isn't a problem, and that's another thing. I STRONGLY prefer mini cans to full-size suppressors. Again, after pulling my head out of the catalogs and off the forums and away from the Titsworth numbers, and actually began USING the gear.

clearing my house at night made me choose my P30S/gen2 APL over my Defender 2000

Still have the carbine's handy

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

Keep in mind that 5.56 mm NATO 62 gr SS-109/M855 FMJ was designed over 30 years ago as linked machine gun ammunition to be fired from the FN Minimi/M249 SAW while engaging enemy troops wearing light body armor during conventional infantry combat at distances of several hundred meters--while not a perfect solution, M855 does perform adequately in this role. M855 was never originally designed for use in rifles or carbines.

That said, the question remains which of the two (M193 or M855) would be the most valid choice for someone if limited to ball ammo specifically for budget reasons in the current climate of ammo? I understand it's probably a matter of which sucks less but the main considerations are reliability, accuracy and performance through intermediate barriers and tissue? I know M193 has been shown to be very inconsistent in terminal ballistics but haven't seen much made of M855...

[WDR]

I know M193 has been shown to be very inconsistent in terminal ballistics but haven't seen much made of M855...

I think M855 is less consistent than M193 with regard to early upset/fragmentation, and thus effectiveness. It also starts out with a little less velocity too, which is the primary thing driving fragmentation.

M855A1 is a different story, as I understand it.

[Darth_Uno]

85896

Anyway, ammo's come a long way in the last 7 years. Especially with effectiveness out of shorter barrels. A face full of M855 will still ruin your day. But there's much better options for the discerning One Man Freedom Force.

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

85896

Anyway, ammo's come a long way in the last 7 years. Especially with effectiveness out of shorter barrels. A face full of M855 will still ruin your day. But there's much better options for the discerning One Man Freedom Force.

LOL, I didn't want to start a new thread but now I am questioning that logic.

[WDR]

85896

It happens a lot around here, and sometimes leads to interesting discussions. :cool: