RFI: 1911 Policy/Transition Course

[jbg270]

Our agency will be approving personally owned 1911's by early summer and I have been tasked with developing policy and a transition course.

Can anybody share their agency’s 1911 policy and/or transition course?

Thanks in advance.

[SLG]

Not what you're looking for, but I can't recommend you guys do that. Too many problems, imo.

[jbg270]

Preaching to the choir!

This decision was made well above my pay grade.

[SLG]

Copy that.

When you say "share...policy" What do you mean? I can't share our transition course, but its not worth sharing, so no loss to you.

[KevinB]

Ugh - running backwards in time...

I would suggest that the department requires officers to demonstrate the same skills they are trained on with the standard issue weapon, and be required to shoot 10% better or greater on the qual course than the department standard is for the issue pistol.

[HCM]

Contact LAPD. They began allowing regular officers to carry personal 1911's in 2010. The officer must be shooting expert with his current duty gun. 380/400. Guns include Colt , Kimber, and Springfield and must pass inspection by dept armorers. Officers must pass a two day transition school and qualify monthly vs quarterly.

I know it's a pain from an admin / program management point of view but if the officer cares enough to shoot 95% or better on quals and drop at least $2k on the gun and associated gear it's worth it from a motivation / morale point of view.

[Gio]

You need to maximize the round count for the course by firing a lot of very short drills (i.e. 1-2 rounds at a time for the majority). The key thing to emphasize is making it muscle memory to disengage the safety as you draw or present the gun to a target, and then return the weapon to safe when you either return to a ready position or the holster. Reloading and using your off hand to close the slide with the slide stop rather than your strong hand thumb like on a Glock or Sig will also take some practice.

Add stress to shooters with a shot timer. They may be able to disengage the safety regularly on a qual course or other slow fire drill, but adding the stress of a shot timer will usually highlight a lack of muscle memory or technique in disengaging it.

[Depmur]

If you will drop me an email to emery@dallascounty.org from your Department email I will email ours. We have a rather broad list of privately owned pistol to include the 1911 that we allow.

[ST911]

For transition: It needn't be a complex COI, or a reinvention of any wheel. I would identify the essential differences between the 1911 and what's already issued/approved, and train to those. I.e. operation of the safety, field stripping, function checks. Add some reload work for the comparatively lower capacity. For "qualification", include critical criteria separate and distinct from score that fails the shooter when the safety is not deactivated on presentation or reactivated upon holstering, and during whatever other task you like (i.e. movement). I like requirements to shoot two (or more) consecutive runs, rather than allowing the wind to be at their back for one. I like system specific critical criteria here rather than a higher raw score. In my experience, intentional shooting, marksmanship, accuracy aren't where the problems lie with average/cop 1911 bearers.

[Depmur]

One of the problems I see are those people who think a specific COF is needed for the 1911. My Department issues the Glock 22 and has for the past 20 years I think. We have always had an approved weapon list that includes Sig, Beretta, S&W, H&K and then several years back Colt, Springfield Armory and Kimber were added. Our COF is designed around our issue pistol, if you carry something that doesn't have 15 rounds in the magazine you need to be aware and keep your pistol hot. I carried a Sig 220 for about 14 years and then transitioned to a 1911 8 years ago, I've never had an issue with the COF designed for the G22. The biggest problem I have seen in our transition course is forgetting to take the thumb safety off and unreliable pistols. People think because they have purchased the latest bestest 1911 that LAPD, the FBI or the Marine Corp carries that they are ready for duty. That's not always the case when they buy the $9.99 magazines from EBay to go with the pistol. I also think there are better duty pistols than the 1911 for most officers but I also think it is a great pistol for some officers. Of course I am sitting here typing this with a Glock 30S on my belt...

[Wayne Dobbs]

I would also put in a functional reliability requirement on the gun that includes both training and duty ammo. I would consider it being 400 rounds of training and 100 rounds of duty ammo fired the same day of transition training and with no cleaning, lubing or other maintenance measures allowed to the guns during the test. If the gun(s) can't pass, and many won't, they can't be carried. They'll squeal like a hog stuck under a gate, but it will likely quell too much enthusiasm for the platform as it comes out of the box.

I love the 1911 and am alive because of one today, but I'd NEVER go down this road on an organizational basis.

[HCM]

One of the problems I see are those people who think a specific COF is needed for the 1911. My Department issues the Glock 22 and has for the past 20 years I think. We have always had an approved weapon list that includes Sig, Beretta, S&W, H&K and then several years back Colt, Springfield Armory and Kimber were added. Our COF is designed around our issue pistol, if you carry something that doesn't have 15 rounds in the magazine you need to be aware and keep your pistol hot. I carried a Sig 220 for about 14 years and then transitioned to a 1911 8 years ago, I've never had an issue with the COF designed for the G22. The biggest problem I have seen in our transition course is forgetting to take the thumb safety off and unreliable pistols. People think because they have purchased the latest bestest 1911 that LAPD, the FBI or the Marine Corp carries that they are ready for duty. That's not always the case when they buy the $9.99 magazines from EBay to go with the pistol. I also think there are better duty pistols than the 1911 for most officers but I also think it is a great pistol for some officers. Of course I am sitting here typing this with a Glock 30S on my belt...

Some of this can be addressed by policy, approved list for guns, mags and ammo if not provided and armorer inspections. My agency issues SIG 40's but we have about 3k personally owned agency approved Glock 9mms on the street. Even with the Glocks, we have to tell guys the cant carry KCI mags or install Hello Kitty slide plates. Factory mags and base plates only. Same with ARs, GI aluminum or PMAGS that's it.

[jnc36rcpd]

Even for a large agency like yours, that is an incredible number of personally owned weapons. Any thoughts as to why so many have transitioned (though I suspect I know the answers).

[Mitch]

I would also put in a functional reliability requirement on the gun that includes both training and duty ammo. I would consider it being 400 rounds of training and 100 rounds of duty ammo fired the same day of transition training and with no cleaning, lubing or other maintenance measures allowed to the guns during the test. If the gun(s) can't pass, and many won't, they can't be carried. They'll squeal like a hog stuck under a gate, but it will likely quell too much enthusiasm for the platform as it comes out of the box.

I love the 1911 and am alive because of one today, but I'd NEVER go down this road on an organizational basis.

Can you expand on why you say many won't make it through the test? Do you think people are going to show up with cheap guns and/or magazines?

I'm not disagreeing at all for the record, I've not yet pushed a 1911 too hard, this is something I'd just like to know more about. Thanks.

[psalms144.1]

Even for a large agency like yours, that is an incredible number of personally owned weapons. Any thoughts as to why so many have transitioned (though I suspect I know the answers).My agency is under 1,000 strong, and issues agent's choice of P229R or P239, both in DAK, both in .40. We authorize personally owned semiautomatic pistols in 9mm, .40 or .45 ACP from: Beretta, Colt, CZ, Glock, H&K, Kahr, Kimber, Ruger, S&W, Sig, STI, Taurus, and a couple more I can't think of off the top of my head. There are no action restrictions. The only restrictions on semis are (a) a nominal barrel length of 3" or more, and (b) a capacity of 5 in the magazine or more. And we authorize revolvers in .38 Spl or .357 (but only .38 is allowed for duty carry) from any of the above.

You can imagine, range days in large offices can be very fun, with shooters on the line with multiple different calibers, action types, etc. And, of course, the overwhelming majority of shooters opt for the smallest possible pistol they can carry on their ankle or in a way that doesn't ruin the "line of their suit," and choose .40 S&W because that's our "standard" caliber. You can imagine the fun of being an FI with a bunch of folks who ONLY shoot when forced to, shooting PM40s and G27s/M&Pcs in .40, then bitching about how their pistols "don't shoot straight..."

And, yes, one of the stalwarts in my agency had STI put together an agency-branded "commemorative" single stack in .40 - thankfully I've only seen one agent bring one to qualify with - on the same day I watched another agent struggle to get more than two rounds in a row fired without malfunction through her nicely engraved LC9...

[Wayne Dobbs]

Can you expand on why you say many won't make it through the test? Do you think people are going to show up with cheap guns and/or magazines?

I'm not disagreeing at all for the record, I've not yet pushed a 1911 too hard, this is something I'd just like to know more about. Thanks.

The answer to all of your questions is a resounding YES. Cops want to be cool and look cool, but most of them want their "cool" at a cut rate price. As one of my strongest training mentors has said that the only thing cheaper than a cop is two cops. He's right and most of them don't know what they don't know and will obtain low end gear. As for their guns, I'd say that more of them will have problems than won't and that's from watching this process as a LE trainer for 35 years. You can have a 1911 program, but it's going to take lots of oversight, money and support to do it right. When you add in teaching and verifying knowledge of proper use of the manual safety and the higher required levels of maintenance and inspection, you have just built yourself a monster project.

I would never take an organization into a 1911 program and I wouldn't go back and start carrying one again as a daily carry gun. There are too many better choices out there now. Heresy in some circles I'm sure!

[UNM1136]

Wayne,

All the weapons in our agency are privately owned, and I tell all my cops to run 1K rounds through whatever they get without cleaning before showing up to qualify. It irons out fitting issues with guns (I had an early Springfield Armory XD break in the first string of fire in a qual, and it had to go back to the factory to get fixed), and also provides a lot of reps to make sure the shooter can reach the controls, and basically work the gun. Those that follow the advice have never had issues on quals, and couple who didn't do it really wished they did. Most people don't realize when they change handguns they are also changing holsters, mags, mag carriers, ect.

I think I know who you are speaking of, and he spec'd the 1911 I have on my hip now, and spec'ed out my patrol rifle. He has long been a proponent of the 1911, and last I knew he was carrying a M&P.

pat

[Depmur]

The answer to all of your questions is a resounding YES. Cops want to be cool and look cool, but most of them want their "cool" at a cut rate price. As one of my strongest training mentors has said that the only thing cheaper than a cop is two cops. He's right and most of them don't know what they don't know and will obtain low end gear. As for their guns, I'd say that more of them will have problems than won't and that's from watching this process as a LE trainer for 35 years. You can have a 1911 program, but it's going to take lots of oversight, money and support to do it right. When you add in teaching and verifying knowledge of proper use of the manual safety and the higher required levels of maintenance and inspection, you have just built yourself a monster project.

I would never take an organization into a 1911 program and I wouldn't go back and start carrying one again as a daily carry gun. There are too many better choices out there now. Heresy in some circles I'm sure!

I agree with the spending philosophy of most Cops and also realize there are lot better choices for duty use and yet I continue to qualify with my Commander each year in addition to a more modern pistol, been a Glock 30S for the past 18 months. With that being said I shoot my carry pistols on a regular basis and maintain them. My Commander is a far cry from when it left Colt but that Glock 30S is hard to ignore also, but it's ugly as sin.

[Wayne Dobbs]

And I know you and that you represent a tiny minority of guys who want a 1911 and do all the things necessary to make it work. Most don't and that's a problem.

[Depmur]

Of course we also have one officer who has a Springfield Armory 1911 that he had worked over that in a 50 round course of fire has at least 5 FTF/FTE's. Of course when you point out that he shouldn't be having these issues he becomes indignant about the "work" he had done to his pistol by his "Gunsmith". The sad thing is his problems could be corrected easily if he would just get off his high horse, I've offered to get it running right but its fallen on deaf ears. And yes Wayne I am sure you know this officer.

[jondoe297]

If you will drop me an email to emery@dallascounty.org from your Department email I will email ours. We have a rather broad list of privately owned pistol to include the 1911 that we allow.

Tried to email you. It was returned as undeliverable.

[Depmur]

Tried to email you. It was returned as undeliverable.

Sorry posted that from my IPad and I guess auto correct got me. The correct email is emurray@dallascounty.org

[jondoe297]

Sorry posted that from my IPad and I guess auto correct got me. The correct email is emurray@dallascounty.org

Dept email sent. Thanks.