New Winchester Kinetic HE Handgun Loads

[Rich]

Looking for some 148 WC I ran across the new Win load called Kinetic HE

They say its design for HD

[Tamara]

Looking for the HEDP loads myself. ;)

[TGS]

Looking for the HEDP loads myself. ;)

I've always been a fan of the good'ole Willy Pete, but I'll have to try your HEDP.

Is the HE Prox or PD?

[Tamara]

Given the payload size, I'd probably go for PD. :)

To the OP, though, I'm looking all over and not finding reference to this. Do you have a photo of the box, because I are intrigue. :confused:

[Sigfan26]

http://www.cabelas.com/product/WINCHESTER-KINETIC-HE-PISTOL/1941354.uts

[Chuck Haggard]

Ooooh, light fast JHPs, that's never been done before..............

[Jeep]

Ooooh, light fast JHPs, that's never been done before..............

Want to bet on whether the 155 grain .40 caliber rounds cause too much slide velocity in Glocks?

[Chuck Haggard]

Want to bet on whether the 155 grain .40 caliber rounds cause too much slide velocity in Glocks?

Nope.....

[Sigfan26]

Rebranded silver tips... Maybe a bit faster, without the silver coating, and with nickel casings. But no better than any other 1980s technology (I do still have an affinity for 9BPLE for in Home, though... )

[BLR]

Rebranded silver tips... Maybe a bit faster, without the silver coating, and with nickel casings. But no better than any other 1980s technology (I do still have an affinity for 9BPLE for in Home, though... )

Pretty sure those had aluminum jackets.

[Sigfan26]

Pretty sure those had aluminum jackets.

Makes sense (meant silver color, not actual silver, too).

[Chuck Haggard]

Pretty sure those had aluminum jackets.

On the .380, some of the .38s, and .45 yes, the rest were nickle plated regular old jackets.

[Tamara]

http://www.cabelas.com/product/WINCHESTER-KINETIC-HE-PISTOL/1941354.uts

Heh. I was looking in the wrong place. I misread the original post and thought Winchester had loaded a wadcutter hot and marketed it as a defense load and thought "Well, that's actually novel from a big manufacturer," but apparently reading is FUNdamental. ;) :o

[Chuck Haggard]

I'd buy two cases right now if someone was loading a 148-158gr wadcutter in nickel cases to about 750fps from a snub

[JHC]

Want to bet on whether the 155 grain .40 caliber rounds cause too much slide velocity in Glocks?

In the '90's I shot the hell out of a G27 and a LOT of hot 155 grain Gold Dots. They ran great. Different recoil system, akin to Gen 4s.

[Tamara]

I'd buy two cases right now if someone was loading a 148-158gr wadcutter in nickel cases to about 750fps from a snub

I know, right? (I'd like plated bullets, too, I think. I hate cleaning lead fouling.)

[Chuck Haggard]

I know, right? (I'd like plated bullets, too, I think. I hate cleaning lead fouling.)

Nyclad double ended WC, just sayin...............

[Tamara]

Nyclad double ended WC, just sayin...............

I'd shoot that.

[Wondering Beard]

Nyclad double ended WC, just sayin...............

You just got my attention

[Rich]

Given the payload size, I'd probably go for PD. :)

To the OP, though, I'm looking all over and not finding reference to this. Do you have a photo of the box, because I are intrigue. :confused:

Cabela

[Rich]

On the .380, some of the .38s, and .45 yes, the rest were nickle plated regular old jackets.

I just dug up a 50rd box of Win S.T. 145gr 357magnum price tag says 24 bucks


BTW I happen to like the silver tip .

[Rich]

I'd buy two cases right now if someone was loading a 148-158gr wadcutter in nickel cases to about 750fps from a snub

I would prefer the standard loading. But I`m a pussy shooting AW S&W . especially with my left

Now I would love a sharp jacketed HBWC

[Rich]

Heh. I was looking in the wrong place. I misread the original post and thought Winchester had loaded a wadcutter hot and marketed it as a defense load and thought "Well, that's actually novel from a big manufacturer," but apparently reading is FUNdamental. ;) :o

sorry about that.

[L-2]

Thanks for the link. I'd not heard of this latest marketing offering. At first, I thought "kinetic" was going to refer to some type of less-lethal ammo; and then I didn't know "HE" meant "high energy" instead of "high explosive". For now, I'll stay with my Winchester Ranger ammo in 50 round boxes when I can find and need it. 155gr., also, is not my usual bullet weight (I'll normally carry & shoot 180gr.).

[Beat Trash]

I have never heard of this HE round, so I did a google search. It says that this loading is exclusive to Cabela's?

Seriously?

On another thread that's gone slightly off topic, a discussion is going on as to why DrGKR changed his avatar and is now the "Mall Ninja Dentist". (Nice font, by the way.)

So... Dr. Gary Roberts isn't supposed to know anything about wound ballistics, but Cabela's is?

I think I'll stay with my old fashioned, heavy weight and "low energy" 147 gr Ranger T series loads for my 9mm's. If I can't get that, then that old fashioned 147 gr HST load would work out for me. But I'm not a Cabela's ballistic expert. Apparently they know something about the topic that the rest of the industry does not.

I'm beginning to wonder if the person who accused DrGKR of being a "mall Ninja Dentist" shops for his ammo at Cabela's?

[Chuck Haggard]

Bass Pro has a similar BS line of ammo, black coated bullet the last I saw, I guess Cabellas has to keep up

[Tamara]

Foot Pounds sell bullets to a surprisingly large segment of the market.

[Jeep]

Bass Pro has a similar BS line of ammo, black coated bullet the last I saw, I guess Cabellas has to keep up

Nothing says "magic bullet" like a black coating. Better stock up before they're banned!

[Chuck Haggard]

Nothing says "magic bullet" like a black coating. Better stock up before they're banned!

Winchester 115gr Silvertip will get you killed on da streetz of Miami, the exact same bullet at the exact same velocity, coated black instead of silver, is OK though.

[Chuck Haggard]

Foot Pounds sell bullets to a surprisingly large segment of the market.

So does velocity.

A friend tried to drag me into the Glock World FB page to refute "VELOCITY!!!!" and "2000fps!!!!!!!". Dude had shot water jugs and a refrigerator door with those magic rounds so he knew the FBI testing was full of BS

[Tamara]

So does velocity.

...and Foot Pounds are made of Velocity!

Signed,
A Recovered Cor-Bon 135gr .40 S&W carrier :D

[Chuck Haggard]

...and Foot Pounds are made of Velocity!

Signed,
A Recovered Cor-Bon 135gr .40 S&W carrier :D

We belong to the same recovery group.

I used to run 115gr Cor Bon in my 5906, and 135gr .40s in my G35, because VELOCITY!!!!

[Haraise]

...and Foot Pounds are made of Velocity!

Signed,
A Recovered Cor-Bon 135gr .40 S&W carrier :D

Glad to see people are coming around. Everyone should know momentum is how you get real knockdown power. ;)

[Jeep]

We belong to the same recovery group.

I used to run 115gr Cor Bon in my 5906, and 135gr .40s in my G35, because VELOCITY!!!!

They are pretty awesome on groundhogs, though.

[Rich]

We belong to the same recovery group.

I used to run 115gr Cor Bon in my 5906, and 135gr .40s in my G35, because VELOCITY!!!!

I bought a M5906 and M6906 back in the mid 90`s. I ran corbon 115 +P even worse if I couldn't find any corbon I would use rem 115gr +P . Didn't know of Doc Roberts back then or any internet dealer who sold LE ammo.


1998 I bought a P229 40cal. I bought a bunch of Gold Dot 155gr and 180gr along with XTP-HP in 180gr & 200gr for loading.

I was told never to use hand loads for SD so since local LE used 155gr silver tips I did the same. LOL

[Chuck Haggard]

I bought a M5906 and M6906 back in the mid 90`s. I ran corbon 115 +P even worse if I couldn't find any corbon I would use rem 115gr +P . Didn't know of Doc Roberts back then or any internet dealer who sold LE ammo.


I also carried the +P Remington, frankly I think it was a much better choice than the CorBon

[Rich]

...and Foot Pounds are made of Velocity!

Signed,
A Recovered Cor-Bon 135gr .40 S&W carrier :D

The 135gr nosler is fun to shoot when loaded under 1100fps. Of coarse I'm guilty of loading up over 1300+fps.

[Rich]

I also carried the +P Remington, frankly I think it was a much better choice than the CorBon

feeds great but have yet to see it pass a 4layer gel test

[Chuck Haggard]

feeds great but have yet to see it pass a 4layer gel test

Back then almost nothing did.

[Sigfan26]

Back then almost nothing did.

What worked best back then? I've always wondered. What did dudes around the water cooler (or coffee pot) in the 1980s and early 1990s Consider the be all end all? Might be a topic for another thread, now that i think of it.

[ssb]

What worked best back then? I've always wondered. What did dudes around the water cooler (or coffee pot) in the 1980s and early 1990s Consider the be all end all? Might be a topic for another thread, now that i think of it.

I was under the impression that Federal 9BPLE/Illinois State Police Load was well-regarded. Massad Ayoob certainly speaks highly of it, even today.

[DocGKR]

Actually relatively inconsistent with poor intermediate barrier capability.

[Rich]

What worked best back then? I've always wondered. What did dudes around the water cooler (or coffee pot) in the 1980s and early 1990s Consider the be all end all? Might be a topic for another thread, now that i think of it.

A 357magnum w/ 4inch barrel

[DocGKR]

During the early to mid 1980’s, like many people, I was duped by "gunzine" articles singing the praises of the .357 Mag 125 gr JHP. I carried a 4” 686 duty revolver and a customized 3” M13 loaded with Fed 125 gr JHP for CCW. However, after going on active military duty and being in a position to test ammunition at the Letterman Army Institute of Research wound ballistic lab, it became obvious that the .357 Magnum 125 gr JHP’s tended to have relatively shallow penetration, frequently fragmented with resultant decrease in permanent crush cavity, and had temporary cavities of insufficient size to contribute significantly to wounding. In addition, these loads had a large muzzle flash and blast (like hand held flash-bangs), as well as a relatively harsh recoil which inhibited accuracy and re-engagement speed.

As the FBI established a science based ammunition testing program in the late 1980's, their research data also showed less than stellar performance from the lightweight .357 Mag loadings, including the 125 gr JHP’s. .357 Mag can certainly offer adequate terminal ballistics, however, there is a reason very few agencies issue .357 mag revolvers for self-defense/force protection purposes anymore. I personally would strongly prefer a good service pistol in 9mm/.40 S&W/.45 Auto over a .357 mag revolver for SD/duty use.

The CHP, the largest LE agency to issue .357 Mag 125 gr JHP’s on the West Coast, clearly reported significantly better results in their officer involved shootings after switching to .40 S&W 180 gr JHP loadings in the early 1990's, based on officer perception, objective crime scene measurements, as well as the physiological damage described in the relevant autopsy studies. The CHP used a variety of .357 Mag loads, depending upon what was available via the state contract. According to the published CHP test data from 1989-90, the .357 Magnum load used immediately prior to the CHP transition to .40 S&W was the Remington 125 gr JHP with an ave. MV of 1450 f/s from their duty revolvers.

[ssb]

Do you think the shallow penetration was a function of poor bullet design/fragmentation or is there something else to it? Is there such a thing as too much velocity? If so, how/where/why is that line drawn?

The reason I ask is, 125gr .357/.38 has a similar sectional density to 124gr 9mm -- a load which, when pushed to 1200FPS or so, works pretty well assuming a modern bullet is used. All other things being equal, my uninformed expectation would be that a similar penetration from the .357 assuming a good bullet is used.

[Chuck Haggard]

Do you think the shallow penetration was a function of poor bullet design/fragmentation or is there something else to it? Is there such a thing as too much velocity? If so, how/where/why is that line drawn?

The reason I ask is, 125gr .357/.38 has a similar sectional density to 124gr 9mm -- a load which, when pushed to 1200FPS or so, works pretty well assuming a modern bullet is used. All other things being equal, my uninformed expectation would be that a similar penetration from the .357 assuming a good bullet is used.

Bullet design.

[Little Creek]

During the early to mid 1980’s, like many people, I was duped by "gunzine" articles singing the praises of the .357 Mag 125 gr JHP. I carried a 4” 686 duty revolver and a customized 3” M13 loaded with Fed 125 gr JHP for CCW. However, after going on active military duty and being in a position to test ammunition at the Letterman Army Institute of Research wound ballistic lab, it became obvious that the .357 Magnum 125 gr JHP’s tended to have relatively shallow penetration, frequently fragmented with resultant decrease in permanent crush cavity, and had temporary cavities of insufficient size to contribute significantly to wounding. In addition, these loads had a large muzzle flash and blast (like hand held flash-bangs), as well as a relatively harsh recoil which inhibited accuracy and re-engagement speed.

As the FBI established a science based ammunition testing program in the late 1980's, their research data also showed less than stellar performance from the lightweight .357 Mag loadings, including the 125 gr JHP’s. .357 Mag can certainly offer adequate terminal ballistics, however, there is a reason very few agencies issue .357 mag revolvers for self-defense/force protection purposes anymore. I personally would strongly prefer a good service pistol in 9mm/.40 S&W/.45 Auto over a .357 mag revolver for SD/duty use.

The CHP, the largest LE agency to issue .357 Mag 125 gr JHP’s on the West Coast, clearly reported significantly better results in their officer involved shootings after switching to .40 S&W 180 gr JHP loadings in the early 1990's, based on officer perception, objective crime scene measurements, as well as the physiological damage described in the relevant autopsy studies. The CHP used a variety of .357 Mag loads, depending upon what was available via the state contract. According to the published CHP test data from 1989-90, the .357 Magnum load used immediately prior to the CHP transition to .40 S&W was the Remington 125 gr JHP with an ave. MV of 1450 f/s from their duty revolvers.

I did not see any recommended loads for defensive use of the 357 Magnum 4" in the sticky notes. I may have missed it. What do you recommend in this weapon for self defense?

[Chuck Haggard]

Not trying to speak for Doc, but I know he used to recommend one of the 180gr JHPs.


The .357 has enough zap from a 4" gun that almost any standard 140-158gr old school JHP works pretty good. Silvertips are a good choice, as is the Barnes solid copper hollow points.

[Little Creek]

Not trying to speak for Doc, but I know he used to recommend one of the 180gr JHPs.


The .357 has enough zap from a 4" gun that almost any standard 140-158gr old school JHP works pretty good. Silvertips are a good choice, as is the Barnes solid copper hollow points.

I also have a Marlin 1894 with 16" barrel. I used this in Chief Weems recent "Social Levergun" class. Am I safe in assuming 158gr JHP for the revolver and 158gr JSP for the Carbine? I also have some 180gr Black Talon and some 180gr Partition Gold. I would think the BT and PG would work well in the carbine.

[Chuck Haggard]

The PGs would for sure.

Question; Dual purpose use for both guns? Defensive only, or is hunting involved as well?

The standard 158gr loads might turn into a varmint bullet from the carbine barrel due to the extra velocity.

[Little Creek]

The handgun would be a self defense gun while hunting with the carbine. I am interested in Deer hunting, Does not heavier than 135#, with this combo. I have a few other, more powerful, rifles, but I have already killed deer with them.

[Chuck Haggard]

I'd think the 158gr Gold Dots would be a good combo to look at, or the 180gr Federal JHP, off the top of my head of .357mag rounds I have seen tested and/or used from a carbine that still work well from a 4" revolver.

If you have a supply of the Partition Gold then you're GTG

[Little Creek]

Thanks.

[Clay]

I've had excellent luck with the Winchester 145 gr. Silvertip in a Ruger Security Six and a Marlin carbine. A friend shot a fairly large buck using this load, and the bullet was lodged against the skin on the far side. Broke both shoulders. I expected it to overexpand out of the 16" barrel, but that was not the case. Sample of one though, so YMMV.

I did shoot this load into wet phonebooks as well as a Fackler water box back in the day and I was impressed with it's performance from 4" service guns like the M19.