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View Full Version : This is what happens when the Good Idea Fairy takes over your department



Chuck Haggard
02-04-2015, 01:50 PM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/ferguson-mo-police-department-is-first-in-us-to-test-less-lethal-gun-attachment/2015/02/03/c6772af8-abb7-11e4-ad71-7b9eba0f87d6_story.html

TR675
02-04-2015, 01:53 PM
"Let's buy a device that lets us shoot a bullet at someone we don't want to harm."

That's grand.

Drang
02-04-2015, 01:55 PM
*facepalm*
Christian Ellis needs to take a page from Richard Davis' book, and be the first human test subject.

Chance
02-04-2015, 02:04 PM
I really need to stop resisting my urge to try and sell my moronic ideas. Apparently, there's a market for them.

LSP552
02-04-2015, 02:12 PM
I don't have the words…..

Actually I do, but I won't say them in someone else's house.

TCinVA
02-04-2015, 02:14 PM
Jesus. Tapdancing. Christ.

That's so dumb it makes me feel dizzy.

Peally
02-04-2015, 02:22 PM
Oh. My. God. That is both hilarious and incredibly retarded. Let's shoot people with real bullets and hope the Jell-O plugging the barrel slows the bullet down.

45dotACP
02-04-2015, 02:24 PM
Blunt force trauma? At the speed of a bullet? Smaaaart.

Follow up shots will also be nonlethal because bullets aren't sharp right? Or do they only want to give officers one bullet and go back to Mayberry?

Oh and "Knockdown power!"

Just waiting for them to trot out the tagline "But I bet you wouldn't want to be shot by one." Then we shall witness the true power of this fully operational derp-station.

TCinVA
02-04-2015, 02:32 PM
Maybe it's just me, but the most disturbing part here is that an assistant police chief went off to google less lethals in the aftermath of the Brown shooting. You'd figure somebody who has a high level command position in a police department would have SOME working knowledge of LL options on the market as well as the benefits and drawbacks of the various options out there. I mean, it's high level command who sets the policies on that stuff right? So you'd figure they would, you know, have a damn clue.

Peally
02-04-2015, 02:35 PM
In a perfect world, but we're talking government here. I think that's pretty typical and less surprising than the fact that the manufacturer decided this was a good idea in the first place.

Chuck Haggard
02-04-2015, 02:45 PM
Maybe it's just me, but the most disturbing part here is that an assistant police chief went off to google less lethals in the aftermath of the Brown shooting. You'd figure somebody who has a high level command position in a police department would have SOME working knowledge of LL options on the market as well as the benefits and drawbacks of the various options out there. I mean, it's high level command who sets the policies on that stuff right? So you'd figure they would, you know, have a damn clue.

You obviously have zero experience with senior level command staff on large departments.

Ref the pool rifle thing; During my brief to staff on why pool rifles are such a bad idea, I was asked by the deputy chief, with a straight face, why we didn't just buy rifles with fixed sighs instead of adjustable sights.

breakingtime91
02-04-2015, 03:10 PM
You obviously have zero experience with senior level command staff on large departments.

Ref the pool rifle thing; During my brief to staff on why pool rifles are such a bad idea, I was asked by the deputy chief, with a straight face, why we didn't just buy rifles with fixed sighs instead of adjustable sights.

?.....lol

John Hearne
02-04-2015, 03:18 PM
We once relayed our ammo order to one of our former assistant chiefs and it included the need for .380. The response was "3-80? Is that a brand or something?"

KenW.
02-04-2015, 04:12 PM
That guy committed what in my state is a violent felony. Attempting to disarm a police officer. And the officer should respond with "less lethal"?

Chuck Haggard
02-04-2015, 04:23 PM
That guy committed what in my state is a violent felony. Attempting to disarm a police officer. And the officer should respond with "less lethal"?

Don't forget, you have to pull out your "less-lethal" pistol launched mortar round and get it on the gun first, that's critical in the middle of the fight.......

45dotACP
02-04-2015, 04:32 PM
Don't forget, you have to pull out your "less-lethal" pistol launched mortar round and get it on the gun first, that's critical in the middle of the fight.......
And if your first shot has no effect...well then carry on with the lethal force and the upstanding community pillars will burn you at the stake and roast marshmallows over the ashes of your career.

Totem Polar
02-04-2015, 04:39 PM
I think TC in VA summed it up back on page one.

That said, I wonder how many rapid shots it would take to *permanently* shoot that abortion off the end of my G17. If it's cheap, I'd be tempted to buy one and find out, on principle alone.

KeeFus
02-04-2015, 04:46 PM
WTF?! Seriously! Taking the "build it and they will come" and buy it mantra to an epic level with that aren't they?

Hambo
02-04-2015, 05:22 PM
Maybe it's just me, but the most disturbing part here is that an assistant police chief went off to google less lethals in the aftermath of the Brown shooting.

It shouldn't be unexpected as command staff doesn't have much connection to reality. They might have been cops once, but once they climb the ladder they're really just office workers playing with spreadsheets and tiptoeing around liability landmines.

Artemas
02-04-2015, 07:21 PM
On top of everything else mentioned this could be a good away to remove your own fingers too.

JBull
02-04-2015, 08:57 PM
It's going to suck when, under stress, someone improperly seats this widget and sends a bullet skipping off somewhere and/or loses a finger.

SeriousStudent
02-04-2015, 09:59 PM
My first thought was that it was like one of the old blank-fired rifle grenades, that you used on a Garand.

Only you fired a pistol with a blank, and it sent a grenade at the bad guy that went all 'splody.

I think I like my idea better than theirs. Is there a market for "more-than-lethal"? How about vaporizingly-lethal?

BaiHu
02-04-2015, 10:45 PM
Hopefully this is just a sad CYA effort to placate the masses with a "see, we tried but it didn't work, so I guess it's back to the usual tools."

Sadly, if it's not, then an officer will be taught to do the following, because someone is getting paid financially or politically and the instructions will be:

1. Drop mag.
2. Do not rack slide.
3. Attach gun dildo.
4. Fire.

I know what you're thinking, but let's look at who we're talking about. I've learned a lot from some SMEs here so bare with me.

Step one is easy, because now it gives the bad guy time to explain how he's really on his way to an orphanage to play Tony Montoya in their musical version of Scarface and that's why he has a SAW.

Step two is perfect, because I've learned from SMEs here that most "professionals" forget to rack the slide anyway. And the guys that create bad publicity (cops that do their job) will now have to learn a new/bad procedure which they will therefore complain about as not being consistent with other procedures. Thereby outing themselves as the real problem because they're not team players. Bingo! They get fired without bad publicity.

Step three just means someone is making hay somewhere on this abortion of an idea. Nothing new under the sun.

Step four allows all the guys that vote for this kind of crap a way to cover their ass when the first ND happens, first cop gets killed due to the hand jive necessary to make this work or the first innocent bystander is killed with a non-lethal round (Mr Murphy loves this kinda shit). You ask how is this a CYA?

If it's an ND or bystander, then they blame the training/object and get more money (sue manufacturer and create a new gun dildo czar) for "training" or new mousetrap that will probably be money used for sensitivity training on not calling it a gun dildo and generally just roll over on the cop/manufacturer in question.

If a cop dies due to this abortion, then they get sympathy and the ability to say at least we let him pull the trigger.

I think that covers it, right?

Beat Trash
02-04-2015, 11:17 PM
I would quit first before being issued anything even closely resembling that thing!

Joe in PNG
02-05-2015, 03:32 AM
Wonder which will happen first:
-The process of installing the Gun Dildo causes an officer to get killed. This results in a massive lawsuit against the PD brass, manufacturer, and others.
-The Gun Dildo works in a way that is rather more than Less Lethal, and someone gets killed. This results in a massive lawsuit against the PD brass, manufacturer, and others.

Any takers?

Luger
02-05-2015, 03:39 AM
Come on, this can't be serious. This article is from a satirical paper, right?

Hambo
02-05-2015, 07:09 AM
Wonder which will happen first:
-The process of installing the Gun Dildo causes an officer to get killed. This results in a massive lawsuit against the PD brass, manufacturer, and others.
-The Gun Dildo works in a way that is rather more than Less Lethal, and someone gets killed. This results in a massive lawsuit against the PD brass, manufacturer, and others.

Any takers?

I'll take Accidental Killing for $500, Joe. I recall video of Israeli troops firing less lethal at a crowd and dinging one or two on the dome.

Chuck Haggard
02-05-2015, 08:42 AM
The fact that Ferguason has Tasers, which in my first hand observation are vastly more effective that less-lethal/impact munitions, and far less dangerous, but they are exploring this absolute clown shoes idea for real world use, tells me their command staff is so ate up as to be beyond help.

If I was Chief and one of my commanders came to me with this idea I would relieve them of command on the spot. This idea is that bad.

BaiHu
02-05-2015, 09:04 AM
Wonder which will happen first:
-The process of installing the Gun Dildo causes an officer to get killed. This results in a massive lawsuit against the PD brass, manufacturer, and others.
-The Gun Dildo works in a way that is rather more than Less Lethal, and someone gets killed. This results in a massive lawsuit against the PD brass, manufacturer, and others.

Any takers?
Thanks for paraphrasing mine and being more succinct. I was having too much fun ranting on this stupidity.

John Hearne
02-05-2015, 09:47 AM
Barring the overall stupidity of this, do we have any reason to believe that this will be more effective than bean bag rounds from shotguns which don't work that well?

BaiHu
02-05-2015, 09:50 AM
That's what I don't get. It seems to intentionally be trying to level the field in favor of the criminal. It does nothing better than other non lethal options (seemingly stated in between the lines of the article), only gives you one shot with a torturous method of delivering the round.

For those in the know, what's the percentage of an officer's first shot? That should be very relevant in this type of "alternative". (JMUO) Just my uniformed opinion.

SpyderMan2k4
02-05-2015, 10:26 AM
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/02/05/2673d732bf865446b95715f7aa96e793.jpg

This is what I imagine their next great idea will be

Glenn E. Meyer
02-05-2015, 10:35 AM
What ever happened to that Taser like shotgun projectile? Just a thought.

Chuck Haggard
02-05-2015, 10:41 AM
What ever happened to that Taser like shotgun projectile? Just a thought.

They didn't work, Taser pulled them off of the market, after lots of folks spent money on $200 magic bullets

Chuck Haggard
02-05-2015, 10:42 AM
Barring the overall stupidity of this, do we have any reason to believe that this will be more effective than bean bag rounds from shotguns which don't work that well?

Nope, and exactly one of my points.

I have personally never seen bean bags work, not one single time, and I've shot or seen shot more than a few people with those things.

John Hearne
02-05-2015, 10:51 AM
I have personally never seen bean bags work, not one single time, and I've shot or seen shot more than a few people with those things.

A friend of mine was one of the first people with Las Vegas Metro to ever shoot anyone with a shotgun beanbag. The first guy he shot fell over as soon as he was struck. The guy thought he had been shot by a conventional shotgun and followed the script, collapsing on the ground. Apparently, he lay there for a few seconds, realize he wasn't dead yet, and the fight was on.

Chuck Haggard
02-05-2015, 11:00 AM
A friend of mine was one of the first people with Las Vegas Metro to ever shoot anyone with a shotgun beanbag. The first guy he shot fell over as soon as he was struck. The guy thought he had been shot by a conventional shotgun and followed the script, collapsing on the ground. Apparently, he lay there for a few seconds, realize he wasn't dead yet, and the fight was on.

I've seen that. More commonly I've seen the "What did you do that for?" look on their face. One drunk, shot with several bean bags when he came out onto the porch during a barricade we were working, told us we were all assholes before walking back inside like we had just locker room towel snapped him a bit too hard.

SouthNarc
02-05-2015, 11:09 AM
Bean bags in 40mm work good as does rubber baton. We went to those after several 12 ga. less-lethal failures in the early 2000's.

Tamara
02-05-2015, 12:15 PM
Don't forget, you have to pull out your "less-lethal" pistol launched mortar round and get it on the gun first, that's critical in the middle of the fight.......

What I want to do when I'm under a whole ton of stress is put my hand out near the loud end of my gun and do some fiddly little tasks.

TCinVA
02-05-2015, 01:05 PM
Another thing the inventors of this silly device didn't think of:

http://sportschump.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Forrest-Gump-Ping-Pong.jpg

Chance
02-05-2015, 01:28 PM
That's what I don't get. It seems to intentionally be trying to level the field in favor of the criminal.

Poppycock. Criminals can put them on the end of their guns too.

TAZ
02-05-2015, 01:29 PM
What special kind retard came up with that idea.

It's always a good idea to pull a firearm when lethal force isn't justified...

Didn't we recently have a guy get killed cause some cop "thought" was pulling his Taser. What are the chances that someone will forget to clip the dildo in place and kill someone who didn't need to be shot in the first place. Or doesn't install the dildo properly and kill someone cause the bullet didn't get caught in the flying testicle.

jetfire
02-05-2015, 01:29 PM
Don't forget, you have to pull out your "less-lethal" pistol launched mortar round and get it on the gun first, that's critical in the middle of the fight.......

Not to mention adding another piece of gear to officer's already crowded belts, or fact that you have to come perilously close to muzzling your own hand with this piece of shit to actually use it.

45dotACP
02-05-2015, 01:53 PM
Another thing the inventors of this silly device didn't think of:

http://sportschump.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Forrest-Gump-Ping-Pong.jpg
I fired my gun dildo at the perp, and then something bit me right in the buttocks...

Chance
02-06-2015, 11:26 AM
Check out their epic "simulation" of how it would work:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14CUYMFSXoQ

Chuck Haggard
02-06-2015, 11:33 AM
Works awesomely in video games.

Peally
02-06-2015, 11:48 AM
So do Uzis from jet skis. What a sham of a product

Glenn E. Meyer
02-06-2015, 11:49 AM
IIRC, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Victoria_Snelgrove

This gadget won't do the same thing?

How about the instinctive double tap that many shoot?

Chuck Haggard
02-06-2015, 11:52 AM
IIRC, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Victoria_Snelgrove

This gadget won't do the same thing?

How about the instinctive double tap that many shoot?

All less-lethal rounds can kill a person with a head shot, or a hit in some other vital area, with perhaps the Pepperball launcher being the only exception.

KevinB
02-06-2015, 12:16 PM
40mm LL rounds tend to work very well.


I've posted about everywhere I post about how stupid this device is -- I got a kick that the officer in the sim - did not need to remove his sights from the target, and the maniac with knife moved at the speed of a 86yr old with one leg and a 50lb weight attached to the other one.

Your going to need a 90ft plus standoff for a guy with a knife at least with this thing -- it's tragic, stupid and IMHO criminal.

BaiHu
02-06-2015, 02:15 PM
Check out their epic "simulation" of how it would work:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14CUYMFSXoQ
This is what I saw in my head:

"less lethal, less lethal!"

Then Leatham double taps the guy screaming, "GRIP ZONE!"

Lastly, McNamara finishes off with his mug in the camera saying, "GET SOME!"

Cut! That's a wrap!

Chuck Haggard
02-06-2015, 03:13 PM
In my experience the 37 and 40mm rounds don't work much better.

This guy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtRgweQxXi8) took an Arwen baton round in the junk on the first shot, and reacted by taking a dramatic Blade movie sword stance. This (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mm4Un-yOB4I) version with narration

What looks to be a full auto Pepperball fail (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vT8k8Qk4-xE)

Hambo
02-06-2015, 03:37 PM
In my experience the 37 and 40mm rounds don't work much better.

This guy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtRgweQxXi8) took an Arwen baton round in the junk on the first shot, and reacted by taking a dramatic Blade movie sword stance. This (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mm4Un-yOB4I) version with narration


Yeah, but he's obviously a ninja. The GlockPong's "shock wave of pain" :rolleyes: might win out where the Arwen failed.

Glenn E. Meyer
02-06-2015, 03:42 PM
Guy should have been at the last play in the Superbowl. Anyway - a few years ago, a high capacity Glockpong might have been banned in TX.

My apologies - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/05/alcee-hastings-dildo-laws_n_6627174.html

mc1911
02-06-2015, 08:39 PM
I'm not a cop or a lawyer, but I've always been under the impression that if you fire your weapon, you've used lethal force. Maybe someone will correct me but if I'm not wrong, when does that law get re-written to fit this situation?

ssb
02-06-2015, 08:59 PM
I'm not a cop or a lawyer, but I've always been under the impression that if you fire your weapon, you've used lethal force. Maybe someone will correct me but if I'm not wrong, when does that law get re-written to fit this situation?

I'll gladly defer to somebody like John Hearne on this, but my thought would be that Graham v. O'Conner (which governs the reasonableness of LE use of force -- including lethal force) would adequately cover this thing, even though the officer using a bullet launched from a real gun to apply the less-than-lethal bit.

Now, the wisdom of using a gun shooting real ammunition as a vehicle for an LTL tool, especially when the next trigger pull produces a real shot? That's beyond me. This seems akin to using beanbag rounds in a normal shotgun, as opposed to a dedicated LTL shotgun -- I would think it's VERY easy to make the wrong choice when using one of these things.

LtDave
02-06-2015, 09:58 PM
I'll gladly defer to somebody like John Hearne on this, but my thought would be that Graham v. O'Conner (which governs the reasonableness of LE use of force -- including lethal force) would adequately cover this thing, even though the officer using a bullet launched from a real gun to apply the less-than-lethal bit.

Now, the wisdom of using a gun shooting real ammunition as a vehicle for an LTL tool, especially when the next trigger pull produces a real shot? That's beyond me. This seems akin to using beanbag rounds in a normal shotgun, as opposed to a dedicated LTL shotgun -- I would think it's VERY easy to make the wrong choice when using one of these things.

Exactly. You do not mix lethal and less lethal in the same weapon IMHO.

Chuck Haggard
02-06-2015, 10:25 PM
Exactly. You do not mix lethal and less lethal in the same weapon IMHO.

Correct

Shellback
02-07-2015, 08:38 PM
I have personally never seen bean bags work, not one single time, and I've shot or seen shot more than a few people with those things.

I just saw this guy dancing (http://www.myfoxaustin.com/story/28047016/man-charged-with-attempted-capital-murder-after-swat-incident) on the news today.


http://youtu.be/rj2CYmmvsW8

Totem Polar
02-07-2015, 08:57 PM
I'll gladly defer to somebody like John Hearne on this, but my thought would be that Graham v. O'Conner (which governs the reasonableness of LE use of force -- including lethal force) would adequately cover this thing, even though the officer using a bullet launched from a real gun to apply the less-than-lethal bit.

I am *No* sort of LE UOF expert.

That said, I've been told that there is case law out saying that if one uses a folded up knife (eg. spyderco gunting) to do fancy less-than-lethal strikes and controls that some jurisdictions don't care; it's still "using a knife". I'll wait and see how Ferguson brass justify this new thing. If other more informed opinions wish to correct me, then fine, but--colossal practical stupidity aside--I'm not convinced that using this deal would stand up in court, nor should it, IMVHO.

Chance
02-08-2015, 12:11 AM
I'm not convinced that using this deal would stand up in court, nor should it, IMVHO.

I'm curious if it could end up in court before it's even used. Given that no human has ever been shot with the thing, I can imagine the ACLU saying, "You're testing it on criminals!"

Don Gwinn
02-08-2015, 12:54 AM
The ball is supposed to be "as accurate as the user." Is that even possible, given that it's a ball with a flat spot on top, resisting the bullet ' rotation/having the bullet ' spin imparted to it (perfectly evenly in all dimensions?)
It seems like accuracy would have to drop off sharply even over fairly short distances.

jnc36rcpd
02-08-2015, 02:39 AM
Sidheshooter, I have vastly less experience than Chuck on legal issues, but I have never heard of a case in which a knife used as a kubaton was interpreted as using a blade. That said, there are potential legal and tactical issues. My greatest concern is that the knife could change hands (good guy to bad guy) and the good guy arms the suspect with a bladed weapon.
I would also have a concern that an incision or slash acquired from the hilt or something in the environment be construed as an injury inflicted by the citizen. While this would likely be proven false by expert testimony, who needs that hassle?
If I were armed solely with a knife, I would not hesitate to use it as a striking or compliance weapon, but I wonder if carrying OC spray or an dedicated impact weapon might not be more effective and reduce the risk of legal hassles.

Chuck Haggard
02-08-2015, 09:26 AM
I'm not a lawyer, however, comma, I have had to work with and under constraints of the law for awhile now.

Gunfire is deadly force due to the medical implications of what happens when that level of force is used. "Death or great bodily harm" is typically what happens when people get shot, hence gunfire being deadly force in the eyes of the courts. "Would a loaded fist or Kubotan technique with a closed knife be likely to cause death or great bodily harm?" is the question at hand. IMHO, no. Your particular state law might have some weird shit in it though, best to check and be sure.

Application of an instrument can chance what level of force we are talking about. Police baton to a suspect's leg? Obviously not deadly force. Full power deliberate police baton strike to the suspect's head? That would be an application of deadly force IMHO.

That lesson is what I used to teach in my "flashlight as an emergency impact weapon" block of training. It sure helped guys get the picture on why we had to quit cracking suspects in the coconut with a KelLight or SL20.
I also taught how to use an impact weapon if one got caught flat footed and needed deadly force right now and what they had in hand was a baton or flashlight, and no time to get to their gun. Even something as caveman as hitting people over the head takes some training to do so for best effect.

Ref the verbiage games with people selling "less-lethal" weapon systems;

Much of this stuff was called non-lethal back in the day, then people started being killed by bean bags to the face and such, and sometimes by odd stuff happening like the old square ravioli looking bean bags hitting sideways and penetrating between ribs. The case in Boston was a classic "Oops!" when the gal was killed during the sports riot with the FN launcher.
"Less-lethal" is so that the makers can claim "We didn't tell you it was non-lethal" when something bad happens.

Most places that I have seen will only allow less-lethal when lethal would be on the table, but due to circumstances the folks on scene want to try and handle things without killing the dude. Standoff with the idiot with the sword in Seattle is a classic example of a contained situation where one can slow things down and give the gear and tactics a try. Those scenarios are rather rare in totality of UOF incidents that cops have to handle.

The fantasy bullshit being peddled by the folks in question displays a stunning lack of real world awareness. These folks are completely out of touch with reality.

Totem Polar
02-08-2015, 11:36 AM
Thanks for the responses, guys. ^^^That's especially detailed, I appreciate it, CH.

Glenn E. Meyer
02-08-2015, 12:17 PM
A thought occurs to me - that gadget might be put on under stress. We know that stress might cause an ND. So what happens if a round is fired into it when it is not securely placed and the bullet hits off the main axis path into the cavity? What happens to your hand?

LSP552
02-08-2015, 12:35 PM
A thought occurs to me - that gadget might be put on under stress. We know that stress might cause an ND. So what happens if a round is fired into it when it is not securely placed and the bullet hits off the main axis path into the cavity? What happens to your hand?

Yes. Someone will try to put it on with their finger on the trigger under stress. They will push with the gun and pull on the device with predictable (to anyone under the rank or Deputy Chief) results.

Chuck Haggard
02-08-2015, 01:58 PM
Glenn, that is one of the many issues I see with this widget.

I note that there isn't a WML maker that will tell you to install/remove a light from your pistol when the pistol is loaded, that is likely an admin task done while not under stress. This thing is supposed to be used in the middle of a deadly force incident.

The off center install is certainly a danger as well.

Shellback
02-08-2015, 05:14 PM
I could also foresee someone trying to utilize it as a "less lethal" alternative and other officers having a sympathetic reaction to the gunfire.

Glenn E. Meyer
02-08-2015, 07:33 PM
That's a great point. Some well known instances have seen this. So in the limited circumstance, command has to have everyone stand down a touch so the clown nose can be inserted and fired? If it doesn't work - wonder what the split time is for a reload.

Hambo
02-09-2015, 07:24 AM
Yet another point against GunPong, as if we need one. Our policy was that there had to be lethal cover when using LL weapons. So I'm guessing that the makers of GunPong figure they have that one covered with the rest of the ammo in the users magazine. However, if someone is stupid enough to use this thing without another officer on scene, and the pong launcher causes a jam instead of neatly flying off the slide, said cop in a in a world of malfunction clearance hurt. I can also imagine the pong launcher hitting the user in the face when it doesn't eject as neatly as the manufacturer says it will.

I give the inventors of GunPong credit, because it's really hard to include so many bad ideas in one invention.

Glenn E. Meyer
02-09-2015, 11:12 AM
A Tueller Drill for this gadget would be interesting, probably about that of a par 5 golf hole.

It has interesting scenario timing problems. I once saw a case where an officer faced a developmentally delayed man who charged with a rake. The officer shot him and was tried. It was on what was called CourtTV at the time. I forget or maybe never saw the verdict.

Anyway - if you carry the gadget and are faced with someone trying to brain you with such an instrument but the attacker engenders sympathy - do you dither with the time it takes to install it. At least a taser could be drawn in real time before the braining.

So this is when a person is dancing around and you have time to install as compared to a time sensitive incident which might suggest less than lethal force but with some ambiguity to the general public.

Paul
02-09-2015, 11:13 AM
And it's success all hinges around a guy in a high stress situation, over riding years of mental preparation and training, and just pull the trigger once.

Alpha Sierra
02-09-2015, 11:46 AM
Wonder which will happen first:
-The process of installing the Gun Dildo causes an officer to get killed. This results in a massive lawsuit against the PD brass, manufacturer, and others.
-The Gun Dildo works in a way that is rather more than Less Lethal, and someone gets killed. This results in a massive lawsuit against the PD brass, manufacturer, and others.

Any takers?
Sounds like a win-win

Alpha Sierra
02-09-2015, 12:08 PM
This engineer wonders about the accuracy of a round projecticle, with no spin, and with a center of gravity that is guaranteed to be not exactly coincident with the geometrical center of the sphere due to the fact that the designer cannot anticipate the mass of the projectile used to launch the ball.

I suppose one could design this clown nose in three or four variations per caliber to account for all the common bullet weights in common pistol ammunition. But even then, there is enough design difference between bullets of the same weight from different manufacturers to make this thing useless past a few feet.

I bet you that ball will tumble like a m-f and will be wildly inaccurate at any distance that might be considered useful.

Totem Polar
02-09-2015, 12:12 PM
This engineer wonders about the accuracy of a round projecticle, with no spin, and with a center of gravity that is guaranteed to be not exactly coincident with the geometrical center of the sphere.

I bet you that ball will tumble like a m-f and will be wildly inaccurate at any distance that might be considered useful.

What if it hits something intermediate, tumbles and dumps the slug out the back? Possible? Hard to say. Anything could happen. Just piling on...

Alpha Sierra
02-09-2015, 12:35 PM
Even the variation in distance that the propelling bullet penetrates to inside this clown nose will have severely negative effects on the clown nose's trajectory.

Peally
02-09-2015, 12:58 PM
At a bare minimum this is going to make for some entertaining YouTube videos if it releases. That and some experienced cops being more depressed.

KevinB
02-09-2015, 12:59 PM
I'm so tempted to buy one to test...

Glenn E. Meyer
02-09-2015, 01:10 PM
Wonder which way it bounces if you miss? If you hit a wall next to a target - does it come back at you? Bullets sometimes do that. Since this is a close range clown nose, do you catch it in your nose for a straight back bounce. I once had my chin split by a nice fragment coming off a steel plate. Call me Red Beard after that. The nice SWAT officer teaching the class was all for a tourniquet at the neck (haha - just kidding). Direct pressure did it.

Andrew E
02-15-2015, 04:26 PM
At a bare minimum this is going to make for some entertaining YouTube videos if it releases. That and some experienced cops being more depressed.

Hell, I'm NOT anyone's kind of "experienced" cop (short time has-been, if anyone's wondering), and I'm already depressed about this thing.

Don Gwinn
02-17-2015, 08:12 PM
Alpha Sierra, that's exactly what I was trying to say. Glad you got it out in English. Agreed.

Glenn E. Meyer
02-18-2015, 11:06 AM
Saw this gadget on CNN. The developer says it takes 3 seconds to deploy. Says it could be lethal. Seems to indicate that hit in the chest will incapacitate the ever popular charging Meth head, zombie biker.

http://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2015/02/05/dnt-alternative-attachment-ferguson-police.kgtv

However, this clip didn't show what they had on the tube - with the officer getting it out and putting it on. It's truly moronic.

Chuck Haggard
02-18-2015, 11:55 AM
Anybody who advocates aiming impact munitions at a person's chest and thinking they will incapacitate that person, or there is no chance of the impact being lethal, has no idea what they are talking about.

Glenn E. Meyer
02-18-2015, 12:35 PM
The device is obviously a moral panic driven solution. After Michael Brown - we have to do something. Having a phaser on stun would be nice but not yet. Anybody remember the idea of using lasers to ionize a path such that a taser like charge could be sent down the path? Haven't heard about that one in years.

Glenn E. Meyer
02-18-2015, 01:30 PM
Found the better video

http://www.cnn.com/videos/tech/2015/02/17/ctn-pkg-sidner-shoot-not-to-kill.cnn

If that isn't convincing that this is a bad idea - look at that Tueller drill. So the guy charges, it is assumed that it stops the person close up and if it didn't work, Jim Bowie is on top of you.

Preaching to choir here.

Chance
02-18-2015, 05:19 PM
Found the better video http://www.cnn.com/videos/tech/2015/02/17/ctn-pkg-sidner-shoot-not-to-kill.cnn

That IPSC target looks like it's made from cardboard, but is... what, leather? Not that it would mislead a casual observer.

BaiHu
02-18-2015, 11:58 PM
My favorite part is when they say "when an officer has 3 seconds or more time..." I'm sure if everyone knew what was going to happen 3 seconds into the future we'd all be better at handling sudden catastrophes.