Is DA/SA Obsolete (In Terms of Sales)?

[GardoneVT]

In looking at the typical gun selected for "defense" purposes by the masses lately, it seems DA/SA semiautos have fallen out of favor . I've actually seen more revolvers come through the local range then I've seen DA/SA handguns.

I do see the rare Beretta or Sig, but the owners never shoot them DA. Whenever the local conversation comes to defense, Glock and competitors rule topics.

Have you guys observed DA/SA guns passing into history as "range toys only" among the proletariat gun owner?

[Hambo]

Back in the 1900s Gaston Glock built a pistol out of recycled plastic pop bottles, the US military bought Italian 9mms, and coppers were trading in .38 and .357 revolvers at a high rate of speed. Gun writers alternated stories between "Wondernines" and "Is the 1911 .45 dead?" Apparently the 1911 survived. Now that everybody and their dog makes a 1911, Bill Wilson and Ernie Langdon are selling high end Berettas. Hmmm.

"And three people do it, three, can you imagine...They may think it's an Organization."

[JV_]

IMO, Sig is pricing themselves out of the DA/SA game with new shooters. $550 for a Glock or $900 for a Sig ....

[GJM]

I don't think DA/SA guns were ever popular with most shooters. My first Gunsite class, in 1981, Col. Cooper mentioned his methods of thumb cocking or firing a first round into the dirt to get to the SA trigger.

If anything, I think there are more enthusiasts that appreciate the DA/SA now. The kind of shooters who previously would have been shooting a 1911. What has changed is there are many more gun owners these days, and the striker is very popular with this group.

PS: my definition of a "serious shooter," is one who can manage the DA/SA transition, and enjoys DA/SA pistols. :)

[JV_]

I don't think DA/SA guns were ever popular with most shooters.

I don't know about that, I know a LOT of people (casual shooters) who bought 92s because of Lethal Weapon.

[1986s4]

In the past few years I've acquired a few classic DA revolvers. High quality, accurate arms that have been left for newer poly SFAs. Manufacturers are making more and more SFAs. They make them because people buy them.
Still, I see a lot of Berettas, classic SIGs and CZs in the new gun case.

[jlw]

Back in the day, nobody but agencies bought 3rd generation S&Ws, but they have enjoyed a renaissance on the trade-in market. It's funny to see people gushing about them on forums now when 10 years ago you would rarely see a positive mention of them.

[RevolverRob]

The one thing about popularity of firearms in the US is...handguns trend and follow military and LE. The main reason TDA guns enjoy anykind of popularity today, is because of the M9 in US Mil and the cross-section of Sigs used by LE and for instance Sigs still remain popular in Texas, because Texas DPS is still carrying them (we'll see for how long this continues). And because of the 3rd gen Smiths previously used by LE (Americans love them some former cop guns).

With the loss of 3rd gen Smiths, HK coming out with the VP9, and Sig looking to essentially replace its TDA market share with the 320, all we need is for Beretta to come out with a striker gun and the TDAs will be in that corner of the case with DA revolvers holding more than five rounds with barrels longer than 3" (snubs are still good business). If you note - with the loss of 3rd Gen Smiths and the Ruger P-series, there are virtually no (are there any? I am pre-coffee this morning) TDA guns built by entirely US based and founded companies. USA TDAs have always been rare, TDAs are largely a European affair and once Glock got a stranglehold on LE and some MIL it was lights out.

In terms of sales. When I was selling guns now nearly a decade ago, it was 10:1 striker to anything else in the handgun realm.

-Rob

[jlw]

all we need is for Beretta to come out with a striker gun
-Rob

They have one in development.

[Jeep]

I think that this is a good and thoughtful question, and I tend to agree--DA/SA autos are becoming less popular and striker-fired autos have become the norm. I also think that makes sense for new and casual shooters--learn to hit the target before trying to master two different trigger pulls. However, I expect the DA/SA will continue to have a strong niche following because of the sheer quality of some of the DA/SA guns.

[Tamara]

I don't know about that, I know a LOT of people (casual shooters) who bought 92s because of Lethal Weapon.

Back in the day, nobody but agencies bought 3rd generation S&Ws, but they have enjoyed a renaissance on the trade-in market. It's funny to see people gushing about them on forums now when 10 years ago you would rarely see a positive mention of them.

Both these are absolute truth. I'll add to jlw's that, back in the day, a surprisingly high percentage of over-the-counter individual 3rd Gen Smith sales were directly attributable to Miami Vice or Reservoir Dogs.

Novices, new shooters, non gun nuts... sales in this bracket are usually determined by what guns that person knows about, and the guns a person knows about, if they don't read the buff journals and hobbyist mags, are usually what they see on the TV or movie screen.

[Jim Watson]

The competition range is something of a driver, even though the actual market is smaller.
USPSA Production and IDPA SSP favor the striker action with consistent and moderately light trigger pull.
IPSC Production has a minimum first shot pull, so the DA/SA is hanging on there, but "there" is overseas.

[cclaxton]

My carry is a DA/SA, but I run it as SA, Cocked and Locked. DA/SA Sigs are still very popular as well.
DA/SA is not done by any means.
Cody

[jwperry]

IMO, Sig is pricing themselves out of the DA/SA game with new shooters. $550 for a Glock or $900 for a Sig ....

This is probably one of the most relevant circumstances. It is real hard to justify the $750+ used price tag to the wife for a used Sig compared to the $425-$450 price tag for a used Glock. The Sig prices go even higher if you get a variant with any 'special' features to it.

[JTQ]

IMO, Sig is pricing themselves out of the DA/SA game with new shooters. $550 for a Glock or $900 for a Sig ....
I think that's more metal frame vs poly frame. The SP2022 is in the Glock price range. I'm sure if S&W were still selling their metal framed TDA guns, they'd cost what their 1911's cost, about $1,000. I'm actually surprised Beretta sells their 92's for what they do.

GJM wrote,
I don't think DA/SA guns were ever popular with most shooters. My first Gunsite class, in 1981, ...
I think it depends on how old you are. Since you were at Gunsite in 1981, you are old enough to remember if somebody was shooting an auto, and it wasn't a 1911, it was probably a TDA gun. I remember they were everywhere. In my small circle, I typically didn't see many striker fired guns until the mid to late 1990's.

The two big knocks on DA/SA guns is the two trigger feels, and of course the slide mounted safety on guns like the Beretta 92FS. One thing that always fascinates me is reading threads on various forums on S&W TDA guns, Ruger P-Series guns, and Beretta 92FS guns. You can't get 10 posts into a Beretta 92FS thread without somebody commenting on how that slide lever is going to get knocked to safe at some time when you don't want it to. On the other hand, the S&W and Ruger threads, on guns that operate exactly the same, the comment practically never comes up. Admittedly, I did most of my S&W TDA shooting before the internet, but I don't recall it ever being a problem for me, and don't remember people complaining about the issue before Glocks became the primary gun for so many people.

[JV_]

I think that's more metal frame vs poly frame.Beretta has maintained a somewhat sane pricing model for the metal framed 92s.

[olstyn]

The only high quality DA/SA guns available in the ~ $500 range that I'm aware of are the SIG SP2022, various CZ-75 variants, and the Walther P99/P99c, and none of those are exactly well-known among the general public, despite Bond, James Bond having carried the Walther for a few movies. Market share drives production drives availability drives market share. It's a self-fulfilling vicious circle of sorts.

[JV_]

The only high quality DA/SA guns available in the ~ $500 range that I'm aware of are the SIG SP2022, various CZ-75 variants, and the Walther P99/P99c~$550 for a Beretta 92.

[olstyn]

~$550 for a Beretta 92.

Ok, fair enough, that's the only well-known example in the target price range, then. :)

[GardoneVT]

Ok, fair enough, that's the only well-known example in the target price range, then. :)

In more then a few places, they're $600-$650. M9s seem to be $50 more,give or take.As an aside, I noticed a PT92 Stainless selling for $499 -USED.

[GJM]

Considering quality, shoot-ability and price, the Beretta 92 is a category leader for DA/SA, and has been a long time.

By the way, the correct spelling is Billretta, and it is pronounced Bill-reta.

[okie john]

Beretta has maintained a somewhat sane pricing model for the metal framed 92s.

It will be interesting to see whether they can maintain this level of sanity if the lose the US government as their biggest customer.


Okie John

[JV_]

Too bad it's not a smaller gun.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

You could get an Egyptian precursor based on the Italian model. Anyway - the whole idea was to counter light pull and folks with their finger on the trigger. Now we have moved to lighter pulls and no safeties that need to be manipulated before fire. Has the accident rate between various models shown that we need the more complex manual of arms? The variable seems to be training. The human factors lit says that even the DA trigger can get pulled in a startle if you have trigger finger follies.

[GardoneVT]

You could get an Egyptian precursor based on the Italian model. Anyway - the whole idea was to counter light pull and folks with their finger on the trigger. Now we have moved to lighter pulls and no safeties that need to be manipulated before fire. Has the accident rate between various models shown that we need the more complex manual of arms? The variable seems to be training. The human factors lit says that even the DA trigger can get pulled in a startle if you have trigger finger follies.

Correct me if I'm wrong-and I likely am on the specifics-but wasn't the reason for DA/SA because back 'in the day' semiautos were single action only and thus carried empty chamber/loaded chamber with a lowered hammer?

A DA /SA pistol permitted a ready to fire option equivalent to revolvers of the time, without fumbling with the slide or hammer beforehand.

[CCT125US]

PS: my definition of a "serious shooter," is one who can manage the DA/SA transition, and enjoys DA/SA pistols. :)

This makes me smile.

[45dotACP]

CZ seems to be very popular among USPSA shooters...but then they typically set their guns up with a DA trigger that is about what an unmodified Glock has. I don't think they are going anywhere. But if I see a Beretta, CZ, or Sig P series in the used case going for what a Model 64 or a 3rd gen smith used to go for, I shall not hesitate.

I'm a Glock shooter usually. The DA/SA thing was never a problem for me, I just have too much invested in Glock.

[BWT]

I would say in terms of sales and new development; yes.

DA/SA's also aren't featured many places besides the military.

Inferior? I don't think so, but you asked about trends.

I do think movies have something to do with this (See the S&W .44 Magnum in the 60's and 70's for reference).

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Correct me if I'm wrong-and I likely am on the specifics-but wasn't the reason for DA/SA because back 'in the day' semiautos were single action only and thus carried empty chamber/loaded chamber with a lowered hammer?

That's because folks feared the good ol' finger ND. There are all kinds of carry modes recommended to avoid a simple pull on a lighter trigger. Safeties, unchambered rounds, heavier pulls - all solutions to the finger! Don't forgot half-cocked 1911s in the mix.

I've seen it claimed that the DA/SA guns actually lead to NDs as after the first heavy pull and if another shot isn't needed - then the shooter rests the finger on the lighter SA trigger and ND's.

So in the focus of the problem trigger discipline and is a two level pull with arguments against continuity a solution?

Waiting for DA/SA phasers.

[warpedcamshaft]

Also, some firearms instructors that I've taken classes from or have seen in interviews/social media recommend against DA/SA guns or use and recommend striker fired guns. This may also influence a small segment of the market.

For example:

Paul Howe's Feb 2015 newsletter (I've also heard his thoughts on triggers and DA/SA first hand):
My first thought is to choose a pistol with the three following features:
Grip that fits your hand
Same Trigger pull with each shot
Caliber you can manage

Kyle Defoor Trigger Time TV:
"In 2013, I don't know that we need a pistol with a hammer anymore..."



And social media influence needs to be recognized as a massive influence these days:

Costa's M&P appearances have likely sold a lot of guns to his fans.

Guys like James Yeager get a lot of views and recommend striker fired action pistols. (300,000 views for "All guns should be glocks")

Hickok45 is another good example. He has an incredible amount of views and talks quite a bit about his striker fired preferences. (1.3 million subscribers)

[fixer]

It does look like obsolescence if you look at gun store real estate occupied by sfa vs tda. Sales figures are obviously proportional.

Most tda guns are challenging for concealment.
There are only a few polymer frame tda: the weight of all metal pistol can be an issue.
The trigger can be an issue but first time owners probably don't know what they don't know
Sfa guns are just flat popular by themselves. Some companies also have aggressive advertising....grip zone!

Then pricing....most sfa are priced under a tda gun (save for polymer frame tda) .

And yeah...how in the heck does beretta make the 92 so I expensively?

[John Hearne]

As understand it, agencies transitioning to Glocks see jumps in their NDs but they are tied to improper disassembly. To me, this is the big "agency" appeal of the M&P. The NDs I hear of with DA/SA guns are tied to reholstering without decocking.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk

[JonInWA]

I think that's more metal frame vs poly frame. The SP2022 is in the Glock price range. I'm sure if S&W were still selling their metal framed TDA guns, they'd cost what their 1911's cost, about $1,000. I'm actually surprised Beretta sells their 92's for what they do.

I think it depends on how old you are. Since you were at Gunsite in 1981, you are old enough to remember if somebody was shooting an auto, and it wasn't a 1911, it was probably a TDA gun. I remember they were everywhere. In my small circle, I typically didn't see many striker fired guns until the mid to late 1990's.

The two big knocks on DA/SA guns is the two trigger feels, and of course the slide mounted safety on guns like the Beretta 92FS. One thing that always fascinates me is reading threads on various forums on S&W TDA guns, Ruger P-Series guns, and Beretta 92FS guns. You can't get 10 posts into a Beretta 92FS thread without somebody commenting on how that slide lever is going to get knocked to safe at some time when you don't want it to. On the other hand, the S&W and Ruger threads, on guns that operate exactly the same, the comment practically never comes up. Admittedly, I did most of my S&W TDA shooting before the internet, but I don't recall it ever being a problem for me, and don't remember people complaining about the issue before Glocks became the primary gun for so many people.

Ruger's safety lever shelves were initially small, and then there positioning was such that inadvertently moving them wasn't to terribly likely. When they were redesigned in to a much more ergonomically friendly profile, they were more accessible, but again not terribly susceptible to inadvertent positioning.

When I carry my P89, it's usually with the safety in the off-safe position due to personal preference.

In most of the P85/P89 series guns, the safety levers themselves provided the significant leverage for slide manipulations, as other than the DAO models, there were no slide grasping grooves. Somewhat surprisingly, I literally can't ever recall personally inadvertently mis-positioning the safety levers during slide manipulations, or hearing of others doing so (but the potential to do so reinforces my habit of using the slide stop/release as a release to get from slidelock into battery).

I suggest that Beretta's current relatively low pricing of the 92 series guns is due to a combination of economies of scale (due to large and sustained production) and presumably amortized (paid off and/or depreciated) machinery/capital assets involved in their manufacturing processes. At least in the past, Beretta literally manufactured virtually all the components of their 92-series guns, except for some of the tritium sights and some of the grip options offered.

Best, Jon

[rob_s]

If anything, I think there are more enthusiasts that appreciate the DA/SA now. The kind of shooters who previously would have been shooting a 1911. What has changed is there are many more gun owners these days, and the striker is very popular with this group.

Emphasis added.

I think you're right. From what I see in general the DA/SA has replaced the 1911 in terms of % market share for enthusiasts. People looking for a challenge, or who wish to prove a position, or whatever.

Don't know that that makes them better or worse, just the flavor of the month.

[Sal Picante]

I think a lot of us in competition choose a TDA pistol because the single action can be setup very sweetly - not a lot of motion/short reset (like crazy short)/light weight.
Additionally, the first DA pull on most properly setup guns can be gotten down to very reasonable levels - you still have the long pull, but it need not be heavy.

In competition, splits and weight matter. A lot. Out in the street, I'm not sure. Some folks say yes, other no.

I dunno. I like SF guns, I also like TDA guns. Anything that will shoot well that is reasonably light enough to carry works. In the past I've preferred to carry something very similar to what I used in competition. Compact 92 & Elite. CZ P01 & Shadow. I still carry a P01 a fair bit, but most days find myself with a Kahr PM9.

Practice, put the bullet where you need to and all should be good...

[Jared]

Not to be argumentative, but I don't think it really matters all that much. As long as mags, spare parts and support gear like holsters are available, it doesn't make much difference to me how many people shoot the same thing I do. I do realize that the overall popularity of a given model makes a good bit of difference as to how much stuff is available, but overall, if I can get what I really NEED, then I'm good.

[RJ]

To noobs in the 99% like me, I think the premise holds. I think the 1%ers have to remember, we don't have a context of a lifetime's experience in buying a gun, either.

SFA action guns are 'simple'. Good ones (Glock, M&P, etc.) are at an attainable price point, say $500.

Plus I think social media has a huge influence these days: Costa / Yeager / Hickock45 / Yankee Marshall. We are past the days when one had to go down to a local gun store to get advice on a gun purchase, or even see / handle options. Nowadays, 'everything' you need to make a comparison is out on the web. I'd say 90% of gun purchases are researched on the 'net primarily.

When new shooters look into TDA guns, they see complexity with (typically) higher price. They see / hear the 'experts' say there is an advantage of a consistent trigger pull, every single time. They wonder, is that decocker thing really safe?

They ask why an HK is $900, when that Glock 19 over there is $499. They both do the same thing, right?

So, yes, to me there are solid reasons why the TDA guns end up at the far end of the case, and the SFA guns occupy all that retail space near the cash register.

Rich in Tampa

[Wheeler]

Many of the instructors prefer striker fired autos because they suck (relatively speaking) with a DA/SA and the striker fired guns are much easier to teach. Trying to teach the masses to shoot a DA/SA pistol well is like trying to teach the masses how to shoot a J frame snubby well. Most folks don't get it and don't want to put in the effort todo fire out how to get it.

[David S.]

Also, some firearms instructors that I've taken classes from or have seen in interviews/social media recommend against DA/SA guns or use and recommend striker fired guns. This may also influence a small segment of the market.

For example:

Paul Howe's Feb 2015 newsletter (I've also heard his thoughts on triggers and DA/SA first hand):
My first thought is to choose a pistol with the three following features:
Grip that fits your hand
Same Trigger pull with each shot
Caliber you can manage

Kyle Defoor Trigger Time TV:
"In 2013, I don't know that we need a pistol with a hammer anymore..."

And social media influence needs to be recognized as a massive influence these days:
Costa's M&P appearances have likely sold a lot of guns to his fans.
Guys like James Yeager get a lot of views and recommend striker fired action pistols. (300,000 views for "All guns should be glocks")
Hickok45 is another good example. He has an incredible amount of views and talks quite a bit about his striker fired preferences. (1.3 million subscribers)

From my consumer POV, this argument is huge. Heck, the standard recommendation around here is the G19.

As soon as the Gadget becomes available my SIGs are gone. Then again, I just moved to Nyeti's neck of the woods.... he just may talk me into HK.

[1986s4]

So SFA pistols are dominating new gun sales to newer shooters. TDA pistols may/have/will fade to the corner of the glass cabinet. But around here SA only, namely 1911's, seem to be going strong. Does anybody see that fading?

[JBP55]

So SFA pistols are dominating new gun sales to newer shooters. TDA pistols may/have/will fade to the corner of the glass cabinet. But around here SA only, namely 1911's, seem to be going strong. Does anybody see that fading?

If many shooters in this area own 1911's they must stay in the safe because they are rare on the firing line.

[LSP552]

As understand it, agencies transitioning to Glocks see jumps in their NDs but they are tied to improper disassembly. To me, this is the big "agency" appeal of the M&P. The NDs I hear of with DA/SA guns are tied to reholstering without decocking.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk

John, I know you are in a better position than I for broad access to this info. I've been out of the firearms training side for a long time now. However, this does run counter to my personal experience. Most of the semi-auto NDs I've seen/heard about locally are directly related to reversing the unload/clear procedure by racking the slide then dropping the mag. Certainly this could happen while dissembling but there is a conscious decision to pull the trigger. I've seen it with DA/SAs also. Instead of dropping the hammer with the decocker/safety, they pull the trigger and get the big noise. I understand the exposure to risk thing when you have to pull the trigger to dissemble, just not convinced that it's the primary cause of NDs with Glocks. I know it wasn't with LSP in the past. Folks clear their pistol for a number of reasons other than disassembly.

The same steps with any other semi-auto will result in the same result. I wonder what percentage of folks using a DA/SA always use the decocker/safety to lower the hammer after clearing?

I've seen more improper clearing cause DA/SA accidents than failing to decock. Failing to decock NDs do happen though. I've was working the line on a 3 day SIG transition course where a student holster a cocked 226 in the last hour of the last day and put a round through the top of his foot. The thumb snap of a Safariland 200 Top Gun holster tripped the trigger.

[Trukinjp13]

I actually tried a few different striker pistols and have moved to da/sa. I like the double action first pull and the light single action after. I use the decock every time I am not actively firing. Now I notice when the gun is dry and I'm simply manipulating it I instinctively decock. The first few times I was like huh my brain was just starting to think to decock but I had already done it. I am actually getting ready to purchase little brother. Have mk25 getting p229. I really enjoy the decocker on the Sig. I also shoot the mk25 better then my glock/m&p/fns as a awesome side note.

[Robert Mitchum]

.
25 out of 26 in the black 25 meters indoors did 5 rounds in DA.
HK45 stock sights and trigger.
I cannot do this with my VP9 but can get the same groups with my HK45c and my P30L(9mm)
http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s1/cjstinks/100_4143_zps4815a208.jpghttp://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s1/cjstinks/100_4144_zps44cbcd33.jpg

[Trukinjp13]

Some fine shooting, that hk45 is great. If the trigger was smoother and a sig like reset wholly kitten that would be a sweeeet gun!

[Rich]

Back in the day, nobody but agencies bought 3rd generation S&Ws, but they have enjoyed a renaissance on the trade-in market. It's funny to see people gushing about them on forums now when 10 years ago you would rarely see a positive mention of them.

I went from revolver to 1911 to 3rd gen M5905 /M6906 later to Beretta, Sig and HK. My 5906/6906 were reliable and accurate and the 5906 was soft shooting.

I do think S&W 3rd gen are the best looking.

[Rich]

IMO, Sig is pricing themselves out of the DA/SA game with new shooters. $550 for a Glock or $900 for a Sig ....

I agree .

I`ll throw in HK also.

I paid way to much for my P30S V3.

[Trukinjp13]

I have no regrets on paying the money I have for Sig. I spent too much playing around with striker guns. My m&p and Glocks needed cash invested to run right and shoot good for me. I pulled my sig out of the box and started running it hard. I would rather have a expensive initial purchase then a project.

[sarg]

The only single action pistol I have left is a Firestar 40. I guess I only keep it because it feels good in the hand.... but it's left on a shelf just to be available.

[Rich]

I have no regrets on paying the money I have for Sig. I spent too much playing around with striker guns. My m&p and Glocks needed cash invested to run right and shoot good for me. I pulled my sig out of the box and started running it hard. I would rather have a expensive initial purchase then a project.

I have had 3 pistol passed my requirements and came right out of the box.

Gen 1 Colt Combat Elite 80S
Gen 1 Sig P229 40S&W
HK P30S 9mm


The HK P30S came with factory glow painted sights that have grown on me . Much brighter than tritium NS. However I don't like that there isn't a ledge to rack back the slide. Maybe if I find a local GS I can trust I switch it out for a 10-8 rear sight some day

[ranger]

I am trying the CZ P07 and P09 after many years with GLOCK and M&P. They certainly are not cost prohibitive for DA/SA.

[Dave T]

Every time I read a discussion of SA/DA autos I recall Col. Coopers comment that the SA/DA was the answer to a question that never needed to be ask.

In my time as an instructor (16+ years) I never saw anyone who could shoot the first DA shot well when pushed to max (SHTF) speed. Sure people can shoot them deliberately but…ask yourself why no one has ever done well in the shooting games going DA/SA out of the holster.

Dave

[JV_]

but…ask yourself why no one has ever done well in the shooting games going DA/SA out of the holster.Seriously? USPSA production was won, for a number of years, with a DA/SA gun. Noteworthy pros that shot/shoot a DA/SA:

Eric Grauffel
Ernie Langdon
Ben Stoeger

[WDW]

I carry a Walther P99 AS & will be doing so for a very long time. While not a "traditional" DA/SA I suppose, it has everything I want/need in a handgun. I certainly don't find this trigger mode obsolete, especially given the rise in AIWB popularity.

[Dave T]

Seriously? USPSA production was won, for a number of years, with a DA/SA gun. Noteworthy pros that shot/shoot a DA/SA:

Eric Grauffel
Ernie Langdon
Ben Stoeger

I've been out of competition for 8-9 years. My statement was based on my experience and observations…seriously.

Dave

[JV_]

Ernie Langdon won the IDPA Champoinship with a P220ST, that was in 2004, just before you 8-9 year window. He has a slew of other national wins too, noted here:
http://www.langdontac.com/Experience.html

There are plenty of people currently shooting USPSA with DA/SA CZs, and winning a lot of matches.

Your statement is simply wrong.

[stinx]

IF a person is willing to train with a DA/SA platform they will be able to run it efficiently, more so then a person who only trains half ass with a striker fired system. all things considered a striker fired system is simpler, but IF I had to go back to carrying an issued DA/SA gun I would be ok with it.

[taadski]

Not to belabor the point, but as a current example, there was only a single striker fired gun in the top 5 at the USPSA Production Nationals this year...seriously.

[45dotACP]

So many people take Jeff Cooper's word as gospel...but they never mention how they don't use the weaver method, and they don't shoot a 1911....

[JAD]

Ahem.

[Alpha Sierra]

In my time as an instructor (16+ years) I never saw anyone who could shoot the first DA shot well when pushed to max (SHTF) speed.
LOL now you have. BTW the pistol is a DA/SA Tanfoglio.

http://youtu.be/-RD_Hqt2Z-A

[GardoneVT]

Every time I read a discussion of SA/DA autos I recall Col. Coopers comment that the SA/DA was the answer to a question that never needed to be ask.


Let us do what is rarely done on the subject-put Col. Coopers statement into context.

Back in "the day", there was no Glock or Sig Sauer. The primary shooters of Jeff Ccoper's time were revolver pros-because, among other reasons, they could be fired immediately and used higher-energy rounds. There was no such thing as Critical Defense 9mm back then.

Semiautos were nominally carried hammer down, either with an empty chamber or with a loaded round(C1 had yet to be accepted) . The user of a Single Action semi auto had to rack the slide or cock the hammer to fire ; so when DA/SA firearms came out it really was a step forward.

One, the shooter could decock without shooting the countryside if the hammer got away from their thumb.
Two, the semi auto pistol stood on equal footing with revolvers-just draw and shoot. No need to rack the slide or thumb a hammer first.
Three, the first shot pull was stiff like a revolver, which is the gun most folks back then were trained on and familiar with.Thus fewer training issues vs a SA pistol.

Col Cooper never saw it that way , likely for the same reason Apple doesn't like Microsoft; different ways of arriving to the same point. Cooper favored Condition 1 over the DA/SA system obviously. Methinks he just got sick of old-time naysayers saying "Hammer Back Carry?You're crazy- We have DA/SA guns for that now".

Nowadays, we can measurably show that a competent shooter doesn't need to rely on a trigger system for optimum performance.We can also determine that in a day and age where the average shooter has no experience with DA triggers, guns equipped as such won't win sales contests against striker fired alternatives.

[Tamara]

When do you think Cooper was doing this stuff at Gunsite? The Cretaceous?

I think he's all wet with the "crunchenticker" stuff, but this is not the deeps of the distant past we're talking about, here. (Which only makes the Orthodox Crunchenticker Loathing worse, actually. Perfectly serviceable DA/SA autos have existed since WWII. Hell, the Smiths have been around since the late '50s.)

[Wheeler]

If I recollect properly, about the time Cooper came up with many of his theories and put them into practice the predominate pistols were revolvers, most of which were .38 caliber although .357's and .45's were quite popular and there were quite a few smaller agencies that carried .32's. There were 1911's of course as well as BHP's and then there were S&W 39's and CZ-75's. The CZ's were hard to the point of nearly impossible to import, that left the model 39's as the only DA/SA pistol in any serious production numbers available in the mid 60's early 70's.
If I'm off on this please correct me.

[YVK]

BTW the pistol is a DA/SA Tanfoglio

With a 5.5 lbs / 2.5 lbs trigger weight.

Whom are we kidding by expanding popularity of specialized guns with featherweight triggers amongst highly dedicated shooters to a whole spectrum of DA/SA guns and gun users?

While Dave may not be up to speed on what's all the rage in games, he's right in regards to abilities of a common shooting public to run service and carry grade off the shelf DA/SA guns.

[GJM]

My second class at Gunsite was API 250 in 1991 or 1992 with Jeff Cooper. He referenced the Crunchenticker (sp) then, including the first DA shot into the ground theory. He didn't seem amused a bike cop from SoCal won our class shoot off with a Beretta 92, with the first shot fired DA with good effect.

[GardoneVT]

My second class at Gunsite was API 250 in 1991 or 1992 with Jeff Cooper. He referenced the Crunchenticker (sp) then, including the first DA shot into the ground theory. He didn't seem amused a bike cop from SoCal won our class shoot off with a Beretta 92, with the first shot fired DA with good effect.

The Colonel quite disfavored the Beretta 92, if his review is any indication.

Returning to subject; as YVK observed, the worlds and skills of expert USPSA shooters and typical range patrons don't intersect much. I've seen more then a few examples of proletariat shooters; yet I was one of two patrons running a DA/SA gun. The other one was a Sig guy with a P224 and a SP2022, both of which were shot SA the entire time.

Everything else was either striker fired, or a SA 1911 derivative.

[Suvorov]

My second class at Gunsite was API 250 in 1991 or 1992 with Jeff Cooper. He referenced the Crunchenticker (sp) then, including the first DA shot into the ground theory. He didn't seem amused a bike cop from SoCal won our class shoot off with a Beretta 92, with the first shot fired DA with good effect.

Odd, I don't recall him writing about that in his monthly column. :o

Hmmmm, contemplating changing my name to Chruchenticker due to my fondness for TDA pistols and lest any of you think I'm a Putinist plant.....

I've always had such a love/hate view of Colonel Cooper.

[jlw]

I once mentioned that I wouldn't spend the money on a custom pistol until if and when I ever reached a point that my equipment was holding me back and that I wasn't shooting my $350 Glock to its fullest potential.

Some guy responded, "You can only go so far with a striker fired trigger." It was Ernest Langdon who said that. What would he know about such things...

[45dotACP]

With a 5.5 lbs / 2.5 lbs trigger weight.

Whom are we kidding by expanding popularity of specialized guns with featherweight triggers amongst highly dedicated shooters to a whole spectrum of DA/SA guns and gun users?

While Dave may not be up to speed on what's all the rage in games, he's right in regards to abilities of a common shooting public to run service and carry grade off the shelf DA/SA guns.

Is that it? Or would it be that the person behind that tuned race gun has written three or four books about how to practice with a handgun and has won a few national matches with a gun that everybody said would handicap him? I seem to recall Ben shooting a Beretta 92 when the "TDA pistols are hard to shoot" craze was reaching a fever pitch.


Just sayin...practice can make the type of gun you choose to shoot irrelevant.

[Alpha Sierra]

Is that it? Or would it be that the person behind that tuned race gun has written three or four books about how to practice with a handgun and has won a few national matches with a gun that everybody said would handicap him? I seem to recall Ben shooting a Beretta 92 when the "TDA pistols are hard to shoot" craze was reaching a fever pitch.


Just sayin...practice can make the type of gun you choose to shoot irrelevant.
Yeah, I think it's more of this

[Alpha Sierra]

With a 5.5 lbs / 2.5 lbs trigger weight.

Whom are we kidding by expanding popularity of specialized guns with featherweight triggers amongst highly dedicated shooters to a whole spectrum of DA/SA guns and gun users?

While Dave may not be up to speed on what's all the rage in games, he's right in regards to abilities of a common shooting public to run service and carry grade off the shelf DA/SA guns.
As someone who got started in serious handgunning with DA revolvers exclusively for the first three years, I'm not much keen on hearing excuses about how hard a double action trigger is to run fast.

[Alpha Sierra]

I've seen more then a few examples of proletariat shooters;

Those guys don't matter, no matter what gun they choose, because they will never put in any amount of effort to be proficient.

[John Hearne]

I would point out that Jeff Cooper's thoughts evolved over time. I have one of his books from the 1960's and it contains nothing like the Modern Technique. Similarly, near his death, he had clearly accepted that you could do good work with a Glock and from Modern Iso. He did maintain that the Glock was just gauche and I really can't disagree. Wasn't it Hackathorn who called it the first pistol with no pride of ownership?

Not to brag, but I took a 250C in 2001. Jeff taught the classroom portions and did a few range visits. The normal Gunsite staff taught the actual shooting. I was the only non-1911 shooter in the class and shot my P220. I won the student shoot-off, shot a clean El Pres, shot the school drills clean and was the on "E Ticket" in the class. If Jeff really bore a grudge, I'd have known it.

It is so "cool" to hack on Jeff Cooper these days. The man wasn't perfect but he moved the art forward more than anyone else ever has or will.

[YVK]

As someone who got started in serious handgunning with DA revolvers exclusively for the first three years, I'm not much keen on hearing excuses about how hard a double action trigger is to run fast.

I broke 100 at my first run at the RSS with a fully concealed Beretta, but what you and I did or could do after months and years of dedicated training is just as relevant to Dave's comment as posting a video of a national champ shooting a 40 oz, 5.5/2.5 lbs, 9 mm pistol.

[45dotACP]

I would point out that Jeff Cooper's thoughts evolved over time. I have one of his books from the 1960's and it contains nothing like the Modern Technique. Similarly, near his death, he had clearly accepted that you could do good work with a Glock and from Modern Iso. He did maintain that the Glock was just gauche and I really can't disagree. Wasn't it Hackathorn who called it the first pistol with no pride of ownership?

Not to brag, but I took a 250C in 2001. Jeff taught the classroom portions and did a few range visits. The normal Gunsite staff taught the actual shooting. I was the only non-1911 shooter in the class and shot my P220. I won the student shoot-off, shot a clean El Pres, shot the school drills clean and was the on "E Ticket" in the class. If Jeff really bore a grudge, I'd have known it.

It is so "cool" to hack on Jeff Cooper these days. The man wasn't perfect but he moved the art forward more than anyone else ever has or will.
I do not intend to hack on Jeff Cooper.

Merely upon those who suggest that all he ever said or felt concerning TDA autos and shooting technique was weaver stance and "durned crunchentickers" and proselytize that which he didn't believe.

Some people live in that version of the past and so easily forget that "The Colonel" was said to be a fan of the CZ75 design, was involved in developing a 10MM clone thereof, and that the sport he created caused pistolcraft to evolve to what it is today.

I will not begrudge those who believe that two trigger pulls is a handicap, but I will respectfully not agree.

[Suvorov]

I wonder at this point if there has been any scientific (or "scientific enough") studies done on the presumed merits of the simplicity of striker fired autos versus the handicap of TDA pistols. Say 2 different but equal enough LE academy classes, one given strikers and one TDA, same amount of time, and same quality instructors. I really wonder how much it matters?

[GJM]

I would point out that Jeff Cooper's thoughts evolved over time. I have one of his books from the 1960's and it contains nothing like the Modern Technique. Similarly, near his death, he had clearly accepted that you could do good work with a Glock and from Modern Iso. He did maintain that the Glock was just gauche and I really can't disagree. Wasn't it Hackathorn who called it the first pistol with no pride of ownership?

Not to brag, but I took a 250C in 2001. Jeff taught the classroom portions and did a few range visits. The normal Gunsite staff taught the actual shooting. I was the only non-1911 shooter in the class and shot my P220. I won the student shoot-off, shot a clean El Pres, shot the school drills clean and was the on "E Ticket" in the class. If Jeff really bore a grudge, I'd have known it.

It is so "cool" to hack on Jeff Cooper these days. The man wasn't perfect but he moved the art forward more than anyone else ever has or will.

John, you know as well as I do that Jeff handed out E tickets based on his personal aesthetic, which in your case got you your E ticket based on your looks and not your shooting. :)

I cherish my extensive collection of Jeff Cooper letters in which we discussed and later debated various topics. For years, my regular end of the day hiking buddy was Paul Kirchner (for those not familiar, Paul illustrated many of Jeff's books), which made for regular contemplation of things Jeff did and said. My wife and I agree Jeff had a major influence on our lives, right down to hunting in Botswana on our honeymoon with Jeff's long time PH.

[GJM]

I broke 100 at my first run at the RSS with a fully concealed Beretta

I would say covered but hardly concealed. Didn't you shoot a P30 some there, too?

[YVK]

Comparing to that USPSA rig you used, that Beretta was buried.
Then again, wrong thread.

[Tamara]

It is so "cool" to hack on Jeff Cooper these days.

Is it? :confused: I don't think it is.

[Jared]

In terms of complexity, or whatever, I'll grant that if you start with a group that barely knows enough to know where the bullet comes out, then the striker systems will likely get them to the point where they could pass most LE quals faster than that same group with a DA/SA.

On the other hand, if one aspires to be a truly exceptional shooter, then they are gonna have to practice A LOT. At that point, I just don't think the striker systems offer any advantage. Or, to put it another way, the amount of effort required to become a really good shooter is great enough that the differences in trigger systems kind of get evened out, if I'm making any sense here.

[jlw]

I attended a regional academy that serves 10 counties. At the time I attended, two agencies still sent cadets to the academy with wheelguns. The autoloaders where split between Glocks and TDAs. If memory serves, there was one Beretta 92, two Sigs, and the rest were 3rd Gen S&Ws. Our "Top Gun" winner shot a S&W 4006.

The agency that I was with issued 4006s. I wrote the proposal to switch to Glocks, handled the actual transaction, and taught the transition courses. One of the justifications for the switch was the ease of teaching one trigger press,

I do believe that one trigger press is easier to both teach and learn. Not having to de-cock is one less thing to screw up. That being said, I don't see TDA as being a handicap, and I actually like having the DA pull right up until I have a support hand only shot.

I will admit thoroughly enjoying having a forum member on the line this past Saturday who was shooting one of the Wilson Combat 92s and getting to revert back to the old "Scan, Cover, De-cock, and Holster!!" from the academy days.

[drummer]

I think that the comments that I read from Col. Cooper on SA vs DA/SA pistols were written before striker fired pistols had become so prevalent. When you factor in that until recently, 9mm was generally considered underpowered, I can understand his point of view regarding a single action .45 auto versus DA/SA 9mm.

The question was, which takes more time for a new shooter to master, remembering to disengage the thumb safety reliably or becoming fast and accurate with the long, heavy DA trigger stroke?

Now you throw striker fired pistols into the mix. There's usually not a safety to remember to disengage and no long DA trigger to master.

In today's market, an individual or organization has to decide whether the requisite skill to master a DA/SA auto over a striker fired pistol is worth the time and ammo cost. If a shooter can be made to meet standards in four hours of training with a striker fired pistol and 300 rounds versus eight hours and 600 rounds with a DA/SA pistol, is the additional cost worthwhile? (time and ammo counts are just hypothetical for discussion).

I've always felt more accurate with a Beretta 92 or Classic Sig than a Glock. Glocks are hard to shoot WELL. But, the perception is that it's not as hard to bring a new shooter up to par with a striker pistol.

The fly in the ointment is the trend of striker pistols taking on more characteristics of single action triggers, at least as far as mechanical limitations will allow. It seems that what the market really wants is the trigger of a 1911 and the capacity of the Beretta or Sig 9mm while being as affordable as possible.

[Tamara]

I think that the comments that I read from Col. Cooper on SA vs DA/SA pistols were written before striker fired pistols had become so prevalent. When you factor in that until recently, 9mm was generally considered underpowered, I can understand his point of view regarding a single action .45 auto versus DA/SA 9mm.

The question was, which takes more time for a new shooter to master, remembering to disengage the thumb safety reliably or becoming fast and accurate with the long, heavy DA trigger stroke?

Now you throw striker fired pistols into the mix. There's usually not a safety to remember to disengage and no long DA trigger to master.

ISTR that as late as the early '90s, Cooper was writing that he considered the DA .44 Special revolver to be ideal for the average LEO who would not take the time to master the beloved 1911.

[GJM]

ISTR that as late as the early '90s, Cooper was writing that he considered the DA .44 Special revolver to be ideal for the average LEO who would not take the time to master the beloved 1911.

Yes, paired with a 30-30 lever as a patrol carbine. He didn't like the Glock, AR pattern guns, 5.56, 9mm or DA/SA guns. He did like .45, 10mm, .308, .30-06 and .460.

[John Hearne]

In today's market, an individual or organization has to decide whether the requisite skill to master a DA/SA auto over a striker fired pistol is worth the time and ammo cost. If a shooter can be made to meet standards in four hours of training with a striker fired pistol and 300 rounds versus eight hours and 600 rounds with a DA/SA pistol, is the additional cost worthwhile? (time and ammo counts are just hypothetical for discussion).

There remain agencies who are scared poopless of their people with a light trigger pull for the first shot. There will always be a niche for those who seek to solve software problems with hardware solutions.

[Jesting Devil]

I have a personal comparison of striker vs Da/Sa recently which i thought was interesting and seems relevant here.

I shoot, train, and compete exclusively with an old 2 pin gen 3 glock 34. After about 5,000 rounds the trigger on it is excellent, crisp and right at 4.5lbs. My friend shoots a tricked out CZ shadow with about a 7lb Da/ 2lb Sa. He's been shooting for about 6 months and while close in skill (approximate IDPA Master), he has edged me out at the last few matches having learned entirely on the Shadow and a CZ P09.

When I have shot his guns (especially the shadow) I felt much less comfortable and familiar with the gun but still found it to recoil less, return more easily, and often when I would have called a shot a miss, it would be a hit. I have been consistently impressed with how easy it was to shoot fast and accurately with both guns and especially the shadow. Is there an element of "new gun syndrome"? Quite possibly but that doesn't really invalidate the comparison. If that can be a determining factor, clearly the difference is rather slight.

Having seen someone learn it and having tried it myself with no real practice and fairly high success, the argument that DA/SA is somehow harder to learn than a striker gun just doesn't make sense to me. I think it is only one piece of what makes a gun easy or hard to run well along with sights, ergonomics, weight, and time spent learning the platform. It's taken me a long time to get where I am with Glocks, much longer than my friend, although he shoots a lot more than I could afford to over that time.

To be honest through all this though, the more shooting experience I've gained, the less I think the equipment really matters as long as it is useable. Would I be better shooting a shadow? I would guess that yes, I would with similar training. They are a very easy gun to shoot well. A sig/beretta? Possibly, I've always shot them well and been outshot by them plenty.

Why do I shoot the glock? It's cheap, eats almost anything I feed it, doesn't break trigger springs, is extremely easy to fix and get parts for, I can get any accessories I could want, and it just isn't the thing holding me back. They absolutely can be run at the top levels (I admit to idolizing Bob Vogel somewhat), it just takes time dedication and practice so I would rather invest in my own skills and push them forward than try to "fix a software problem with a hardware solution" (I really love that quote, hope you don't mind my commandeering it :cool: ) It's my opinion that how easy a gun is to shoot at a lower skill level is not necessarily an indication of some upper limit to someones performance with it.

Sorry if I rambled on a bit, I'm using this as a break studying for midterms :)

[Zeroptsdown]

The fly in the ointment is the trend of striker pistols taking on more characteristics of single action triggers, at least as far as mechanical limitations will allow. It seems that what the market really wants is the trigger of a 1911 and the capacity of the Beretta or Sig 9mm while being as affordable as possible.

I don't think TDA pistols are any where near being obsolete, CZ, Sig, H&K, Beretta etc are all predominantly TDA manufactures.

The predominant theme in the thread is that its much easier to teach a complete novice the striker system, but when it comes to the dedicated shooters TDA pistols are used extensively and in many instances preferred. I venture to say that top IPSC shooters know a thing or two about running pistols fast and they almost all use TDA/1911 guns.

I find the TDA system easier to use on long/marginal/difficult shots. Marginal shots with my G17 become much easier with my CZ single action.

In terms of these very light 'striker fired' triggers, I think this is a slippery slope, regardless of software/hardware problems etc. The margin for error on a light striker fired gun is extremely small. A lot of these striker fired guns have such light triggers they compatible to SA triggers, but without a manual safety.

[Jesting Devil]

In terms of these very light 'striker fired' triggers, I think this is a slippery slope, regardless of software/hardware problems etc. The margin for error on a light striker fired gun is extremely small. A lot of these striker fired guns have such light triggers they compatible to SA triggers, but without a manual safety.

Is this necessarily unique to striker guns? A super light trigger is a super light trigger, a manual safety can limit some of the risks, as can a DA first shot but that doesn't change it. A heaver trigger will be slightly more forgiving of mistakes.

I question this because the only AD i've personally seen in a match was with a CZ on a reload where the trigger got brushed while shifting the grip. Obviously a training error but that could be said for any AD couldn't it?

[David S.]

FWIW. I seem to recall, Bruce Gray believes the press-out (a core part of their curriculum) is easiest to learn for DA/SA students and most difficult to learn for SA (1911) students. Striker-fired are somewhere in the middle.

[jlw]

I assisted at the regional academy today. There is a single TDA gun in the class in the form of a Sig 226 in .40SW. The cadet shooting it is paying his own way through the academy. Every other student is shooting striker fired. There were two M&Ps and an XD (pre-service guy). Everything else was a Glock.

The Sig guy appeared to be the best shooter in the class, even after I made him start de-cocking for every string.

[Alpha Sierra]

The Sig guy appeared to be the best shooter in the class, even after I made him start de-cocking for every string.

LOL

[Dave T]

Wow! Took a lot of incoming there for a while. Feel the need to defend myself.

It would appear I was wrong about no one doing well in "competition" with a TDA pistol. That was not my observation or experience in some 30 years of practical pistol competition. Since I never followed the goings on of the big boys or the big time, national matches it seems I have lived a sheltered life. Well, beat me with a stick for not knowing about all these folks you are all so familiar with.

As for the late Col. Cooper, I only recalled what he said, I didn't say it was gospel. I went to the 250 class in Dec. of 1978. The assistant instructor was a guy named Bruce Nelson. I shot the duty gun I carried as a detective, a Colt Commander (the real one with the alloy frame) and got an "E" ticket from the Col. He said it was for being the top score on the final day. And, he wrote "Special Merit" on the certificate because I was the first student to clean the Fun House. But according to some here that was just favoritism.

My first post on this topic was a statement of my experience with the people I trained and competed with. That isn't good enough for most of you so this will be my last post.

Keep your heads down and your powder dry,
Dave

[GJM]

The E ticket comment wasn't aimed at you -- it was a joke with John Hearne, who as handsome as he is, shoots even better.

That said, as the holder of multiple E tickets from Gunsite, it is only fair to say that the awarding of tickets followed a subjective process, ultimately determined by Jeff. My wife has a different Fun House story from her 250 class. Clearing what was supposed to be the closet in her bedroom, during a fun house run, she encountered a man holding a beer can in "her closet." She shot him, and when the instructor pointed that out, she replied "that is what he gets for drinking in my bedroom closet."

I wouldn't take the comments too personally. Threads over five pages typically go south on PF.

[Fordtough25]

I love shooting my Beretta M92, and have enjoyed Sig P series in the past. I do carry a glock 19 daily though so I do get the thoughts on a consistent trigger pull every time and such. But I will always have my M92 and shoot it as often as I can!

[David Armstrong]

IF a person is willing to train with a DA/SA platform they will be able to run it efficiently, more so then a person who only trains half ass with a striker fired system. all things considered a striker fired system is simpler, but IF I had to go back to carrying an issued DA/SA gun I would be ok with it.
Yep. I love my Glocks, but if they were to disappear tomorrow there is a good chance my auto of choice would become my old S&W Mdl 39. Let's not forget that LE used a lot of DA/SA autos for quite a while, and I don't remember their hit rates/success rates being all that different from either the old revolver days or the newer autos.

[WilsonCombatRep]

Wow! Took a lot of incoming there for a while. Feel the need to defend myself.

It would appear I was wrong about no one doing well in "competition" with a TDA pistol. That was not my observation or experience in some 30 years of practical pistol competition. Since I never followed the goings on of the big boys or the big time, national matches it seems I have lived a sheltered life. Well, beat me with a stick for not knowing about all these folks you are all so familiar with.

As for the late Col. Cooper, I only recalled what he said, I didn't say it was gospel. I went to the 250 class in Dec. of 1978. The assistant instructor was a guy named Bruce Nelson. I shot the duty gun I carried as a detective, a Colt Commander (the real one with the alloy frame) and got an "E" ticket from the Col. He said it was for being the top score on the final day. And, he wrote "Special Merit" on the certificate because I was the first student to clean the Fun House. But according to some here that was just favoritism.

My first post on this topic was a statement of my experience with the people I trained and competed with. That isn't good enough for most of you so this will be my last post.

Keep your heads down and your powder dry,
Dave

Too bad-you probably have a lot to offer this forum.

[Sal Picante]

You know what is nice?

The fact that we have a choice here in 'Murica. SFA for all the folks that want SFAs. TDA's for all the folks that like TDAs!

(We had a guy from Australia come up and shoot with us this past week - wow. Things are pretty kittened up down there... It sucks so bad that o bought a new DA/SA gun for myself today!)

[taadski]

You know what is nice?

The fact that we have a choice here in 'Murica. SFA for all the folks that want SFAs. TDA's for all the folks that like TDAs!

(We had a guy from Australia come up and shoot with us this past week - wow. Things are pretty kittened up down there... It sucks so bad that o bought a new DA/SA gun for myself today!)


Ahem....:p


Details? Pics?


t

[45dotACP]

You know what is nice?

The fact that we have a choice here in 'Murica. SFA for all the folks that want SFAs. TDA's for all the folks that like TDAs!

(We had a guy from Australia come up and shoot with us this past week - wow. Things are pretty kittened up down there... It sucks so bad that o bought a new DA/SA gun for myself today!)

Hear Hear! Go 'Murica! When the 3 day IL wait is up (never understood why that was a thing), we all expect pics of said new gat...

[Wheeler]

Hear Hear! Go 'Murica! When the 3 day IL wait is up (never understood why that was a thing), we all expect pics of said new gat...

The logic was to prevent folks going out in the heat of the moment, buying a gun and then killing whomever they were mad at with said gun. A cooling off period, if you will. The reality is it's another form of behavior modification getting folks used to having to jump through hoops to own a firearm with a side benefit of vilifying said firearm.

My apologies for the thread drift, please return to your regularly scheduled mumblings. :-)

[Jeep]

The logic was to prevent folks going out in the heat of the moment, buying a gun and then killing whomever they were mad at with said gun. A cooling off period, if you will. The reality is it's another form of behavior modification getting folks used to having to jump through hoops to own a firearm with a side benefit of vilifying said firearm.

My apologies for the thread drift, please return to your regularly scheduled mumblings. :-)

That was good thread drift and you are absolutely correct. They really don't care what "gun control" laws they pass, the purpose is to pass some gun control law to help continue to make guns seem to be inherently "bad."

Now, for a rapid recovery to the topic of the thread, I doubt many gun controllers know the difference between a DA/SA and a striker fired pistol so to them both are equally bad (except for Glocks--they really hate Glocks for some reason).

[5pins]

That was good thread drift and you are absolutely correct. They really don't care what "gun control" laws they pass, the purpose is to pass some gun control law to help continue to make guns seem to be inherently "bad."

Now, for a rapid recovery to the topic of the thread, I doubt many gun controllers know the difference between a DA/SA and a striker fired pistol so to them both are equally bad (except for Glocks--they really hate Glocks for some reason).

Because you can walk right through a metal detector with one.:rolleyes:

[ReverendMeat]

Surprised they haven't tried banning porcelain yet.

[45dotACP]

Because you can walk right through a metal detector with one.:rolleyes:

Only the Glock 7.






It costs more than you make in a year...

As for as DA/SA obsolescence, I'd doubt it. My 92FS is a slick setup now that I have a 13lb mainspring in it. With a DA trigger pull close to 7.5lbs, it's actually about the same weight (and easily way smoother) than some stock SFA guns. The first DA pull is sweet....and each SA pull...well 3.5lbs is better than my 1911 as far as weight is concerned. Everybody talks about 3.5lb connectors for a Glock, but I'd like to see the connector that can actually get a pull weight down to 3.5lbs...mine all end up being closet to 4.5/5ish lbs

I just hope SFA guns become even more popular, because my gun shop has filled up with 500 dollar P-series Sigs, and the 92FS compact, I bought for about 400 on the dot. The way things are going, I'll fill up my gun collection with a few 700-900 dollar pistols for less than it'd take me to buy a few new Glocks....

I'll reject the advice of Tommy Lee Jones instead by losing that glock and getting a nickle plated sissy pistol all day every day :D

[Jared]

my gun shop has filled up with 500 dollar P-series Sigs, and the 92FS compact, I bought for about 400 on the dot. The way things are going, I'll fill up my gun collection with a few 700-900 dollar pistols for less than it'd take me to buy a few new Glocks....



I wish they'd get that cheap where I'm at. When I was getting my Beretta Vertec a couple days ago, the guys at the shop were wondering if they needed to start carrying them in addition to the commercial M9's and 92 Inox's that they make sure to keep in stock. It turns out that 92's are one of their better sellers, and to folks that don't have any idea about the G models or the Brigadiers, or any of that other cool stuff that makes the Beretta fanboys get short of breath.

[Suvorov]

I wish they'd get that cheap where I'm at. When I was getting my Beretta Vertec a couple days ago, the guys at the shop were wondering if they needed to start carrying them in addition to the commercial M9's and 92 Inox's that they make sure to keep in stock. It turns out that 92's are one of their better sellers, and to folks that don't have any idea about the G models or the Brigadiers, or any of that other cool stuff that makes the Beretta fanboys get short of breath.

Yeah, no deals to find in the Bay Area, that is for sure.

What (may I ask) did you end up paying for your Vertec?

[Jared]

Yeah, no deals to find in the Bay Area, that is for sure.

What (may I ask) did you end up paying for your Vertec?

I didn't buy it outright, swapped a SIG 228 and boot for it.

I can tell you that the distributors are charging dealers about $675 for them and the INOX Brigadiers. I had to choose between the two, as I couldn't swing both right now. Decided since I had a Bruniton Brig, I'd try the Vertec to see how I liked it.

[Trooper224]

My youngest son is currently stationed on a carrier out of Norfolk. He's told me the gunshops around there are full of 92's in the $300-$350 range. Apparently, sailors and marines buy them at the base exchange, then unload them out on town when they're short on beer and stripper money. Seems like there's a Beretta glut around there.

[dgg9]

Anecdotally, but I've seen people in weekend classes across the last 13 years, and in 2001, it was Glocks, 1911s and a decent set of DA/SA. Today I see all 9mm striker fired guns in a class, and maybe one 1911.

But that could be a "class equipment" thing, like the way people might actually carry leather IWB at 4:00, but since that's a drag in a class where you have to reholster 100 times, they carry kydex OWB at 3:00 in classes. Likewise, not having to deal with the decocker all weekend might be appealing?

[richiecotite]

My youngest son is currently stationed on a carrier out of Norfolk. He's told me the gunshops around there are full of 92's in the $300-$350 range. Apparently, sailors and marines buy them at the base exchange, then unload them out on town when they're short on beer and stripper money. Seems like there's a Beretta glut around there.

Oh really ???

Looks like I might need to make a trip down to south, "to visit the folks"


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[HammerStriker]

I've seen more improper clearing cause DA/SA accidents than failing to decock. Failing to decock NDs do happen though. I've was working the line on a 3 day SIG transition course where a student holster a cocked 226 in the last hour of the last day and put a round through the top of his foot. The thumb snap of a Safariland 200 Top Gun holster tripped the trigger.

Wouldn't the same thing have happened with a striker-fired pistol with no safety (e.g. Glock)?

I know this is an OLD thread, but interesting discussion since there has been a DA/SA "renaissance". I've often heard this argument that forgetting to de-cock a DA/SA will leave you with a very light SA pull that is less forgiving to accidents. Aren't most SFA trigger pulls ~5 lbs these days, and don't most of them tout "smooth" pulls with little pre-travel, etc? The standard Sig 226 SA pull is ~4.5 pounds, not much lighter than than of a Glock or other SFA. What am I missing here?

[GardoneVT]

Wouldn't the same thing have happened with a striker-fired pistol with no safety (e.g. Glock)?

I know this is an OLD thread, but interesting discussion since there has been a DA/SA "renaissance". I've often heard this argument that forgetting to de-cock a DA/SA will leave you with a very light SA pull that is less forgiving to accidents. Aren't most SFA trigger pulls ~5 lbs these days, and don't most of them tout "smooth" pulls with little pre-travel, etc? The standard Sig 226 SA pull is ~4.5 pounds, not much lighter than than of a Glock or other SFA. What am I missing here?

Trigger systems aren’t connected to practical safety of a particular shooter.

However, the cognitive difference of a DA/SA vs a striker IS the need to activate the de cocker post-shooting. Depending on circumstances one might be very occupied once the shooting stops- too occupied to remember the decock step .Way too easy to forget to decock unless the action is drilled into running the gun. It’s one area strikers and DAO/LEM triggers have an advantage. Post incident you just put the gun away.

[LSP552]

Wouldn't the same thing have happened with a striker-fired pistol with no safety (e.g. Glock)?

I know this is an OLD thread, but interesting discussion since there has been a DA/SA "renaissance". I've often heard this argument that forgetting to de-cock a DA/SA will leave you with a very light SA pull that is less forgiving to accidents. Aren't most SFA trigger pulls ~5 lbs these days, and don't most of them tout "smooth" pulls with little pre-travel, etc? The standard Sig 226 SA pull is ~4.5 pounds, not much lighter than than of a Glock or other SFA. What am I missing here?

Racking the slide then dropping the mag will have the same result no matter what semiauto you are clearing.

For the next part, a cocked 226 or B92 is much easier to fire, IMO, than a Glock. With TDAs you typically have rely little weigh on the take up and then a crisp, light trigger. Regardless, poor handling habits are not safe, regardless of platform. With a TDA, if you train to decock when dismounting the gun and you thumb check the hammer when holstering, IMO, it’s all moot.

[HammerStriker]

Trigger systems aren’t connected to practical safety of a particular shooter.

However, the cognitive difference of a DA/SA vs a striker IS the need to activate the de cocker post-shooting. Depending on circumstances one might be very occupied once the shooting stops- too occupied to remember the decock step .Way too easy to forget to decock unless the action is drilled into running the gun. It’s one area strikers and DAO/LEM triggers have . Post incident you just put the gun away.

Right, but I'm saying a cocked DA/SA is likely not less forgiving than a striker fired pistol, since most SFA have light trigger pulls anyway. I think that holstering a cocked Sig P226 (forgetting to de-cock), is no different from holstering a Glock. If the holster would have snagged a Glock trigger, it would have been the same result as with what happened with the cocked DA/SA Sig in SA mode. Don't you think the Glock would have fired too?

[Duke]

Da/SA and the desire to shoot it well totally transformed my shooting and I think every shooter should develop skill with the system.


But.


I’ve moved on. 2011. RMR. Comp.

It’s still hammer fired. Still positive fire system control for aiwb.

[HammerStriker]

Da/SA and the desire to shoot it well totally transformed my shooting and I think every shooter should develop skill with the system.


But.


I’ve moved on. 2011. RMR. Comp.

It’s still hammer fired. Still positive fire system control for aiwb.

Do you agree that a cocked DA/SA trigger is no more likely to discharge if snagged on a holster than a Glock is?

[GardoneVT]

Da/SA and the desire to shoot it well totally transformed my shooting and I think every shooter should develop skill with the system...

Get outta here with that common sense. BRB, gonna go cut the trigger spring on my M9A1 so it’s a 3lb DA pull.


J\k- disclaimer, please don’t do that IRL. Some guber jacked up an M9A1 like this to the point I bought it and sent it to WC for remedial work as an act of moral conscience .Otherwise some poor soul would have walked out with a $459 M9A1 that was a time bomb , thinking it was the deal of the century.....

[Duke]

Do you agree that a cocked DA/SA trigger is no more likely to discharge if snagged on a holster than a Glock is?

Trigger pulled is as trigger pulled does...

[Clusterfrack]

I installed a heavy sear spring to increase the SA pull to 4# on my carry P-07.

[Duke]

Do you agree that a cocked DA/SA trigger is no more likely to discharge if snagged on a holster than a Glock is?

Upon further thought -

Yes. But. I’d not say someone is okay holstering a cocked, no safety 92 for example.

[RevolverRob]

I installed a heavy sear spring to increase the SA pull to 4# on my carry P-07.

4# is about right for a street-carried gun. Too heavy for a gamer gun, but about right for a street carried gun.

Assuming, of course, some other safety variable in the equation (e.g., a DA first shot, like on a P-07, or a thumb safety on a 1911). A 4# trigger floating out in the ether without a significant additional safety system is an accident waiting to happen.

A human can probably produce four pounds of pressure with their eyelids, it's not a lot of weight.

[Clusterfrack]

Do you agree that a cocked DA/SA trigger is no more likely to discharge if snagged on a holster than a Glock is?

Based on a quick comparison of two guns I had in front of me, no I don’t agree.

The Glock has a heavier “1st stage” and is not as easy to pull as my P-07 in SA. Also, the trigger leverage is significantly better on the P-07 in SA. I wouldn’t carry the P-07 in SA.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191103/fde9244e0dc4c01f58804790bba2ee93.jpg

[M2CattleCo]

Upon further thought -

Yes. But. I’d not say someone is okay holstering a cocked, no safety 92 for example.

Why not?

Thumb the hammer back and jam it the holster.

Still safer than a Glock with a Gadget.

[GardoneVT]

Why not?

Thumb the hammer back and jam it the holster.

Still safer than a Glock with a Gadget.

Safety does not scale with a specific trigger system. One of the worst myths to afflict gun handling is the idea a trigger system equates to user safety .Note that a cocked DA/SA pistol is not being operated in the bounds of manufactured function when carried hammer back.

This of course does not encompass “Burger King” systems like HK V3s with manual safeties.Those guns permit the user to carry any way they like.

[Bucky]

Right, but I'm saying a cocked DA/SA is likely not less forgiving than a striker fired pistol, since most SFA have light trigger pulls anyway. I think that holstering a cocked Sig P226 (forgetting to de-cock), is no different from holstering a Glock. If the holster would have snagged a Glock trigger, it would have been the same result as with what happened with the cocked DA/SA Sig in SA mode. Don't you think the Glock would have fired too?

A cocked DA/SA Sig is fully cocked, whereas a Glock is partially cocked. Replace Glock with P320 makes the argument a little close IMO.

[Borderland]

If the DA/SA pistol was still a thing going forward, the major manufacturers wouldn't have jumped into the striker market with both feet.

The 1911 is an enthusiasts pistol.

The DA/SA is the old military/LE pistol.

Striker is the military/LE pistol now.

At least that's what I was told by this 20 something gun salesman a few days ago. I guess he should know. :(

They push strikers on people who don't know the difference so I guess mfg's won't be making them in a few years.

[JAH 3rd]

As a sixty someone, I cut my teeth shooting a S&W model 19, then a 66. My first semi-auto was a S&W model 59. My first polymer pistol was a Glock 21. The 19 and 66 represent a double action pull with the option of cocking the hammer for a single action release. The 59 represents a traditional double action first shot with single action subsequent shots. Of course these actions can be modified.......spurless hammers on revolvers and pistols or DAO for pistols and revolvers, depending on internal mods.

For me, polymer pistols for the most part mean striker-fired action. Certainly HK in the scheme of things just recently got into the striker market with the VP series. For me Colt means 1911 type pistols, with the reintroduction of revolvers a new endeavor after years of no revolver production.

Ultimately for the consumer, whether an individual or a bulk buy, it is cost of the initial purchase, followed by training, then maintenance. Take Glock for example. That platform is about as easy as it gets for replacement of parts. This appeals to organizations that purchase hundreds or thousands of pistols. A TDA pistol will probably cost more initially, as a platform be more complex to repair, and the need to learn two trigger pulls instead of the one of a striker-fired pistol.

Just follow the continuing trend away from DA/SA to striker-fired pistols. Just the way it is.

[GardoneVT]

If the DA/SA pistol was still a thing going forward, the major manufacturers wouldn't have jumped into the striker market with both feet.

The 1911 is an enthusiasts pistol.

The DA/SA is the old military/LE pistol.

Striker is the military/LE pistol now.

At least that's what I was told by this 20 something gun salesman a few days ago. I guess he should know. :(

They push strikers on people who don't know the difference so I guess mfg's won't be making them in a few years.
DA/SAs will shortly join revolvers & 1911s in the “duty guns of yesteryear” section to the left of the Glock/XD/M&P showcase. There’s plenty of interest still-yet unless the Feds adopt a MA style trigger law , they’ll never rule the roost again as they did 20 years ago.

[JTQ]

A cocked DA/SA Sig is fully cocked, whereas a Glock is partially cocked. Replace Glock with P320 makes the argument a little close IMO.
From Tom Jones...

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?27521-Do-recent-events-cause-you-to-reconsider-the-quot-safety-quot-of-your-EDC/page9

I think a lot of people are putting too much emphasis on partially tensioned vs. fully tensioned strikers. The Glock isn't safe because it has a partially tensioned striker (the partially tensioned striker has sufficient energy to detonate most primers) but rather due to the features of the "Safe Action"® system -- features that can be (but seldom are) completely reimplemented in any striker fired design -- that form redundant "safeties" that require multiple "failures" before the gun can discharge.

[JTQ]

At least that's what I was told by this 20 something gun salesman a few days ago. I guess he should know. :(
I was in a gun store the other day, and the salesman was explaining to a customer how to decock a 1911. The customer said, "Gee, that seems kind of difficult." Against my better judgement I piped in "That's why I never do it." I instantly recognized the error of my ways and decided I was better off to let them live in the world they wanted to live in.

[Borderland]

DA/SAs will shortly join revolvers & 1911s in the “duty guns of yesteryear” section to the left of the Glock/XD/M&P showcase. There’s plenty of interest still-yet unless the Feds adopt a MA style trigger law , they’ll never rule the roost again as they did 20 years ago.

I would say that's true. I'm not a fan of strikers as I don't own any. I do know that a friend of mine who is about my age was buying pistols awhile back. When it came to buying a compact the sales people talked him into a striker. He has no preference as he wasn't a shooter until he retired. He likes the fact that they're cheap and reliable. That's pretty hard to argue with.

I'm prejudiced and I'll admit it. Must have something to do with the firearms I grew up with.

In a few more years there will be strikers and everything else. A parallel is the AR and all those other rifles. The range buckets are full of 5.56 brass.

[10mmfanboy]

I think everyone that still shoots/carries DA/SA pistols and 1911's are only found on this forum. Everyone else has moved on. I either have to buy mine online or possibly score a used DA/SA that is hidden in the back row tucked in the corner of the used pistol case in my LGS. I still dig them and carry them and shoot them more often than striker pistols. I will only carry and train with a pistol that I can positively control the movement of the trigger reholstering though.

[Bucky]

From Tom Jones...

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?27521-Do-recent-events-cause-you-to-reconsider-the-quot-safety-quot-of-your-EDC/page9

IMO, with the O being the important part of that acronym, the New Sigs are a different kind of animal. I got to shoot a P365XL for the first time today. The gun was stock. The only DA/SA I had on hand at the time was my USPc, also stock. The USPc trigger in SA had a longer length of travel and was noticeably heavier than the P365XL. My 48 on the other hand has a longer pull, heavier pull, and has the resistance throughout the pull, not found in either.

Not to mention, the Glock trigger blade is so sharp, you’d notice even if you inadvertently had your finger on the trigger. ;) So that’s why they do that! ;);)

[HammerStriker]

IMO, with the O being the important part of that acronym, the New Sigs are a different kind of animal. I got to shoot a P365XL for the first time today. The gun was stock. The only DA/SA I had on hand at the time was my USPc, also stock. The USPc trigger in SA had a longer length of travel and was noticeably heavier than the P365XL. My 48 on the other hand has a longer pull, heavier pull, and has the resistance throughout the pull, not found in either.

Not to mention, the Glock trigger blade is so sharp, you’d notice even if you inadvertently had your finger on the trigger. ;) So that’s why they do that! ;);)

Interesting, I always wondered why then don't make the trigger safety blade depress flush with the trigger. Makes sense.

[spinmove_]

It’s REALLY hard to sell people on anything but polymer striker guns. My wife finally went to the range with me yesterday for the first time in 3 years. And she kept commenting on how much she just liked the G17.5 better than the 92G because “the Glock has the same trigger press everytime and I really like that green dot (referring to the Dawson fiber front).”

I tried explaining to her the merits of the TDA system and how it’s really not that hard to learn. She simply retorted with “but it’s easier and I don’t have to think about decocking”. Tack that mindset on the end of cheaper overall gun and easier maintenance and it’s really easy to see why the average person loves the polymer striker guns. This simply the world we live in now.

[sparkyfender]

90% of the time, I am carrying a DA/SA pistol or a revolver.

I will occasionally tote a Hi Power or 1911, but I prefer DA/SA. Nothing wrong with a striker fired, and I do get why they are popular. And often a little cheaper. $$

[Coyote41]

If people spent as much time ingraining firearm safety habits on a range, in a class, or in a competition as they did trying to analyze which gun is the “safest”, we’d all be much safer.


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[spinmove_]

If people spent as much time ingraining firearm safety habits on a range, in a class, or in a competition as they did trying to analyze which gun is the “safest”, we’d all be much safer.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I’m not sure I entirely agree with that. The people who are actually asking the question of “which system is safest?” are typically way more safety conscious than the people totally oblivious to such a concept. Those people are the ones who really want something like the P320 even before the “optional upgrade”. They’re also the ones who are taking entire seconds to make sure that their shots stay in the A zone at 7yds.

The average person just assumes all modern pistols have the same level of safety and durability these days. While they’re generally correct on the durability side, they have 0 clue as to how most of these systems actually work and with a striker system, with all parts of the action out of sight/out of mind, they think they all work the same.

[Bucky]

It’s REALLY hard to sell people on anything but polymer striker guns. My wife finally went to the range with me yesterday for the first time in 3 years. And she kept commenting on how much she just liked the G17.5 better than the 92G because “the Glock has the same trigger press everytime and I really like that green dot (referring to the Dawson fiber front).”

I tried explaining to her the merits of the TDA system and how it’s really not that hard to learn. She simply retorted with “but it’s easier and I don’t have to think about decocking”. Tack that mindset on the end of cheaper overall gun and easier maintenance and it’s really easy to see why the average person loves the polymer striker guns. This simply the world we live in now.

If this is the popular mindset, you'd think there'd be a market for a semi cocked hammer fired gun. Some of the older Smith DAOs were like that, and Beretta had the PX4 C / "Constant action". But... there's not.

[JTQ]

...they have 0 clue as to how most of these systems actually work and with a striker system, with all parts of the action out of sight/out of mind, they think they all work the same.
My bet is 90% of folks on gun forums don't believe the Tom Jones quote I posted above regarding the stored energy of the partially cocked Glock.

[Inspector71]

On a side note, the most accurate duty grade auto pistol that I ever owned was an early 80’s model 59, that I purchased used in 2009. I specifically bought it to use exclusively in NRA PPC matches service gun matches. It would chew the center out of a B-27 target at 25 yards. My G17 comes close, but can’t beat it.

[Trooper224]

If you want to treat your gun like a Bic lighter, there's nothing better than a striker fired plastic fantastic. If you want to achieve a minimum level of proficiency in the least amount of time, same thing. On the other hand, if you're looking for the optimum people management tool, or something that will take your shooting to a different level, then there are a number of designs that are superior. There are guns for the classes and guns for the masses. A striker fired plastic fantastic was designed from the outset to be the latter.

[Coyote41]

If you want to treat your gun like a Bic lighter, there's nothing better than a striker fired plastic fantastic. If you want to achieve a minimum level of proficiency in the least amount of time, same thing. On the other hand, if you're looking for the optimum people management tool, or something that will take your shooting to a different level, then there are a number of designs that are superior. There are guns for the classes and guns for the masses. A striker fired plastic fantastic was designed from the outset to be the latter.

My post wasn’t meant to infer that there are no differences in the performance or even safety of different pistols. However, in my observation the general shooting public, there is far more to be gained on the “software” side of safety, before delving into the hardware side. The same applies to shooting skills as well.

That brings me to another point. All of these additional safety devices require training to use effectively. They don’t magically make unsafe gun handling into safe gun handling. If you don’t put your thumb on the hammer it might as well not be there. Since “the masses” aren’t even training well enough to look at their holster and remove their finger and possible concealment garments from the holster before reholstering (again, personal observation), they aren’t going to train putting a thumb over the hammer or decocking. Again, training and practice are key to ANY layers of safety on a gun.

For the record, I am very much a fan of TDA and DAO/LEM pistols. However, I am also not uncomfortable carrying a Glock 19 sans gadget (although most of my Glocks do have them).


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[GJM]

If you want to treat your gun like a Bic lighter, there's nothing better than a striker fired plastic fantastic. If you want to achieve a minimum level of proficiency in the least amount of time, same thing. On the other hand, if you're looking for the optimum people management tool, or something that will take your shooting to a different level, then there are a number of designs that are superior. There are guns for the classes and guns for the masses. A striker fired plastic fantastic was designed from the outset to be the latter.

I have spent many years of effort, and thousands of dollars, trying to prove your hypothesis, but unfortunately am still am not sure about the “shooting to the next level” part.

[Duke]

Open division is not dominated by hi-point.


That tells me some weapon platforms are easier to shoot at a high level than others.

[spinmove_]

If this is the popular mindset, you'd think there'd be a market for a semi cocked hammer fired gun. Some of the older Smith DAOs were like that, and Beretta had the PX4 C / "Constant action". But... there's not.

The people like short and light triggers. While the DAO semis like those would have lighter than your typical DA press, it still doesn’t have that striker trigger characteristic.


My bet is 90% of folks on gun forums don't believe the Tom Jones quote I posted above regarding the stored energy of the partially cocked Glock.

A lot of people slept through that part of science class and regardless of how you phrase it, they’ll still interpret “partially tensioned” as being safer than “fully tensioned”. Given that most people also don’t like to be proved wrong, they’ll also most likely continue to think their choice in hardware is the best until they buy into something else that makes things easier.


I have spent many years of effort, and thousands of dollars, trying to prove your hypothesis, but unfortunately am still am not sure about the “shooting to the next level” part.

I haven’t the time nor the money you have into testing this, but so far I’d completely agree with you. A nice TDA trigger is EASIER to shoot MORE CONSISTENTLY, but it actually MAKING you a better shooter? Not so much. But even then, familiarity with the platform and building skill with whatever you’re shooting I’ve found to generally trump a lot of that. I would argue that making small tweaks to whatever platform you shoot to make it more comfortable for you to shoot is better than switching to an entirely different platform. At least this is what I’ve been able to glean in my own progression. YMMV.

[Robinson]

I have spent many years of effort, and thousands of dollars, trying to prove your hypothesis, but unfortunately am still am not sure about the “shooting to the next level” part.

I think the whole "next level" thing is more dependent on the individual doing the shooting than the type of pistol. Different guns may be more suited to certain people than others, but most people who own guns never get to the point where they can really determine what action type would work best for them -- from a pure shooting standpoint or from a more comprehensive defensive skillset standpoint.

[RevolverRob]

I have spent many years of effort, and thousands of dollars, trying to prove your hypothesis, but unfortunately am still am not sure about the “shooting to the next level” part.

I suspect that in your case you can readily wring out the maximum performance of most guns in a matter of minutes or at most a few days, this getting to the "next level" is probably exceedingly difficult for you, because when you're already near the top.

The rest of us mortals can start glimpsing what it's like to be next level when we play around with tools that help correct our shitty execution of fundamental aspects of pistol shooting.

[HopetonBrown]

If you want to treat your gun like a Bic lighter, there's nothing better than a striker fired plastic fantastic. If you want to achieve a minimum level of proficiency in the least amount of time, same thing. On the other hand, if you're looking for the optimum people management tool, or something that will take your shooting to a different level, then there are a number of designs that are superior. There are guns for the classes and guns for the masses. A striker fired plastic fantastic was designed from the outset to be the latter.

And here stupid ol' me thought it was training and practice, but it ends up its actually just the action of the pistol.

This reminds me of the Southpark episode about Prius.

Replace Prius with TDA.
44415

[JonInWA]

Just re-read/read this entire thread. A little more emotional than most p-f threads, but some good discussion.

I have DA/SA, DAO, SFA, LEM and SA action pistols in my collection. Some see far more use than others. What tends to drive the train for me regarding a specific pistol/platform are a number of criteria-some of them frankly situational.

-Reliability

-Accuracy

-Ergonomics (which can overlap into reliability and accuracy)

-Likely venue of use (i.e, duty/threat management, concealed carry, home defense, competition)

-Caliber characteristics

-Familiarity/Ease of Use

-Personal appreciation/enjoyment/challenge/skill building

In considering what I've got, probably the best pistols that I shoot with in my possession are my Ruger P89 (DA/SA), HK VP40 (SFA), Glock G17 (SFA), Beretta 92D (DAO) and FN HP (SA).
For a duty environment where threat management is a crucial factor, my choice may be slanted towards a gun with a longer, more deliberate triggerpull required, such as my P30L LEM or Beretta 92D DAO. For concealed carry or home defense, a shorter, faster action may be deemed desirable (Glock or HK VP SFAs) For hiking or wilderness use, ruggedness, ease of use, and ease of maintenance may be more paramount considerations; also caliber/ammunition selection may drive the choice (i.e., Underwood Lehigh Xtreme cartridges, which I have in .40 and .45 ACP)-Generally, my wilderness gun will be a Glock (Gen4 G22 or G21).

Another factor may be relatively simplicity of use, if there's a possibility that I may have to pass the gun to my wife, who is a non-dedicated shooter; in that case, it'll likely be a Glock or HK VP, where I'm considering the combination of ease of use and relative ergonomics with her physique to be controlling factors (I'm interested to learn her take on my new SIG P230 Compact RX in 9mm; the RDS may be ideal for her, along with the compactness of the gun).

I refer to remain with a specific platform/gun for a protracted period; during the period of use, the gun is expected to fulfill all of my need venues satisfactorily. Over the years, the ones that have consistently seen the heaviest use are my Beretta 92D, Glocks, HK VP40 and P30L; the jury is still out regarding the P320 with its organic RDS. An inbound shroud will ameliorate some of my durability concerns regarding the RDS's suitability for EDC and duty.

Best, Jon

[RevolverRob]

This is more or less how I feel about handgun actions:

https://i.imgflip.com/3f92eo.jpg

[Yung]

I'm not convinced that people outside the training or competition worlds practice enough for the advantages and disadvantages of each mechanism to be noticed.

However, seeing a small trend of striker-to-DA-to-SAO among the handgun enthusiasts here does make me wonder if each mechanism might highlight where the student might be in their their development and where they do good/need work in their own abilities.

Though having come back to B92s recently from Glocks, I am not inclined to think that 1911s are in my future, even if all my fundamentals were in tip-top shape.

[snow white]

I made the switch back to DA/SA guns about eight months ago. I learned to shoot pistols with a CZ sp01 and a 75 compact, first carry gun was a CZ RAMI so DA/SA was what I was familiar with from the get go. the DA/SA action is what I used when I first started competing as well. at some point I switched over to a striker fired gun for my edc and competition. I did this believing it would maybe make me a bit faster or more accurate or something.... it did not. shooting SFA I noticed zero increase in speed or accuracy in my shooting compared to my DA/SA guns. After two years with a SFA gun I decided to switch back to DA/SA because I missed the platform. going back to DA/SA I found my first shot from concealment was faster than with a SFA gun. I believe this is due to being able to start my trigger prep earlier in my draw stroke. DA\SA guns also give me more peace of mind carrying AIWB, I shoot competitions from concealment with my carry gear so im holstering and drawing from AIWB more than the average bear to begin with. In my circle of friends who are very into shooting I don't know if any of us use a SFA gun now that i think of it...
most SFA guns are less expensive, perceived to be more durable (that is debatable obviously), and generally more user friendly than other options on the market. knowing that the vast majority of the gun owning population has at best a passing interest in firearms and will go out and shoot once maybe twice a year i can see how the SFA has been the go to option for a majority of people.

[JSGlock34]

We often point to the dominance of TDA guns in some competition, but I've wondered if USPSA Production rules were changed to permit single action starts whether competitors using CZ/TZ models would continue using the DA mode? Or would cocked and locked quickly become the standard? Would 1911 style pistols experience a resurgence in the sport?

DA/SA guns dominate Production Division (CZ and TZ account for almost 70% of shooters combined at Nationals), but I'm not sure I'd attribute their popularity to the fact that those are TDA guns. CZ is not nearly as dominant in Limited Division, for example, where cocked and locked pistols are permitted (STI is the most popular make in this Division, accounting for ~40% of shooters at Nationals, compared to 10% for CZ/TZ). Heavy steel guns with light triggers are very shootable. Striker guns are practically synonymous with lightweight polymer.

Interesting to watch companies like SIG try to make their polymer striker fired guns heavier...

[Clusterfrack]

We often point to the dominance of TDA guns in some competition, but I've wondered if USPSA Production rules were changed to permit single action starts whether competitors using CZ/TZ models would continue using the DA mode? Or would cocked and locked quickly become the standard? Would 1911 style pistols experience a resurgence in the sport?

DA/SA guns dominate Production Division (CZ and TZ account for almost 70% of shooters combined at Nationals), but I'm not sure I'd attribute their popularity to the fact that those are TDA guns. CZ is not nearly as dominant in Limited Division, for example, where cocked and locked pistols are permitted (STI is the most popular make in this Division, accounting for ~40% of shooters at Nationals, compared to 10% for CZ/TZ). Heavy steel guns with light triggers are very shootable. Striker guns are practically synonymous with lightweight polymer.

Interesting to watch companies like SIG try to make their polymer striker fired guns heavier...

Production rules certainly play a big role in the Shadow2 being so popular in USPSA right now. I do think a light, short SA trigger offers an advantage over a long, light DA pull--especially for those 1st shot 25yd mini poppers. For sure, a super-light trigger on an Open gun is going to be a competitive advantage.

I like the current USPSA Production rules because there is a fairly even playing field. Metal TDA guns and polymer striker guns are all competitive in the division. I also really like being able to compete with (S2's) and carry (P07's) similar guns.

I'd be ok with a trigger weight restriction, like IPSC.

[HopetonBrown]

going back to DA/SA I found my first shot from concealment was faster than with a SFA gun. I believe this is due to being able to start my trigger prep earlier in my draw stroke.

How much time does one need to prep the trigger? You draw was slower before because you weren't prepping a striker gun early enough to bresk the shot at extension?

[snow white]

How much time does one need to prep the trigger? You draw was slower before because you weren't prepping a striker gun early enough to bresk the shot at extension?

yeah that seems about right. I know its a training thing but i don't think I was getting on the trigger early enough with the striker gun. that could have contributed to my less consistent shot placement when compared to DA\SA as well...idk. im shure its a me problem and has nothing to do with the SFA. its my familiarity and proficiency with the DA/SA sistem that pulls me toward it.

[RevolverRob]

I like the current USPSA Production rules because there is a fairly even playing field. Metal TDA guns and polymer striker guns are all competitive in the division. I also really like being able to compete with (S2's) and carry (P07's) similar guns.

I'm semantic and don't like it. Because 1911s and 2011s and TSOs, etc. are all production (i.e., made on an assembly line) firearms. So, to me, it's disingenuous to categorize them as not production, because of their trigger type. I get why they do it that way, but the language is wrong and that irritates me to no end (again...semantic).

I do think the "Carry Optics" classifications are total bullshit. A Walther PPQ 5" with a Deltapoint is a Carry Optics gun, but a STI Staccato-P Duo is an "open" gun. They're barely any damn different, both have 3# triggers, 4-5" barrels, shoot 9mm, and have similar capacity. They're practically the same damn gun, except the STI is safer, because it has a safety and a heavy firing pin spring that won't let it inertia fire if dropped.

[Trooper224]

And here stupid ol' me thought it was training and practice, but it ends up its actually just the action of the pistol.

This reminds me of the Southpark episode about Prius.

Replace Prius with TDA.
44415

And here I thought it was possible to have a discussion with some plain language without egos getting involved. Boy, was I a fucking moron on that one.

If, *if* one were to read my initial post with even the faintest hint of objectivity it would be obvious that I wasn't criticizing striker fired guns. They execute their design intent to a high degree of proficiency. However, there are other viable designs that do some things better. But hey, what do I know. I'm just a guy who spent the prime of his life pointing guns at people and dealing with the ensuing shitstorm that sometimes followed.

Fuck it. I have better things to do than engage in this bullshit. Your penis extension is the best out there and your skills are snake eating, pipe hitting and door kicking awesome with it.

[Clusterfrack]

RevolverRob, yeah some parts of the rule book seem designed to make certain manufacturers happy.

But, Major scoring, big sticks, and a comp do make Open a very different game from CO.

[Obelisk]

For me DA/SA done right is fantastic. I remember picking up a Colt Python in 94’ and and pulling the trigger. It was fantastic. I was too poor at the time to afford it. But that trigger pull stuck in my head. It was so smooth and light. I think it’s just that most DA/SA pistols from the factory are gritty and too heavy. Not every pistol buyer is going to send their pistol in for a trigger job. Some can’t afford that luxury either. Others don’t even know enough you can even do that. If gun manufacturers want to sell DA/SA I think they need to forget New York trigger pulls and go with a trigger customers won’t need to modify from the get go. I absolutely love my 92 LTT’s trigger as it is perfect for my needs. But I do remember the long heavy DA of my M9 in the USAF. Sure we have a plethora of polymer guns to compete with. A good SA to me feels better than a striker fired gun, but that’s completely subjective and I have not fired every single one of them. I tried out a CZ P07 I was expecting some god level trigger. It felt gritty and a tad heavy. Yes I’m sure a couple hundred rounds and it would smooth out, but I shouldn’t have to send it off to Cajun to get it the way it should have left the factory. An extra $150 for it with a better trigger from the factory sign me up. I’m sure there are legal reasons, I’m just saying what sells.

[HammerStriker]

And here I thought it was possible to have a discussion with some plain language without egos getting involved. Boy, was I a fucking moron on that one.

If, *if* one were to read my initial post with even the faintest hint of objectivity it would be obvious that I wasn't criticizing striker fired guns. They execute their design intent to a high degree of proficiency. However, there are other viable designs that do some things better. But hey, what do I know. I'm just a guy who spent the prime of his life pointing guns at people and dealing with the ensuing shitstorm that sometimes followed.

Fuck it. I have better things to do than engage in this bullshit. Your penis extension is the best out there and your skills are snake eating, pipe hitting and door kicking awesome with it.

I, for one, appreciate your feedback.

Hearing over and over that it is all training and that trigger mechanism (i.e. SCIENCE!) have nothing to do with it drives me nuts. "Its a software problem not a hardware problem", seriously? Yes, if all else is equal it is likely a software problem, BUT not everything is equal. Different trigger mechanism acted upon with equal amounts of force can produce different outcomes. I do not believe that one can train to perfection--this doesn't exist. There are accounts of very skilled shooters having NDs during competition, people who have shot and practiced 100s of times more than I ever will. If they can make a mistake, so can I. Some trigger systems are more forgiving of getting your finger on the trigger too soon, or of not carefully re-holstering. To deny this is to deny the laws of physics. If the snarky poster thinks he can train to shoot equal across all trigger systems, I'd like to see it. There is only one Jerry Miculek and very few Langdons in this world.

EDIT: One more thought. The longer I shoot, the more people I meet that trick themselves into thinking that they can train all the danger out of this sport. We've chosen a dangerous sport/hobby and there are things that can be done outside of training to lower the probability of a mishap. One of these things is having a heavy and long first trigger pull, its called physics!

[HopetonBrown]

But hey, what do I know. I'm just a guy who spent the prime of his life pointing guns at people and dealing with the ensuing shitstorm that sometimes followed.

https://youtu.be/eA58PSadviA

[HammerStriker]

https://youtu.be/eA58PSadviA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjQrhDKDWFk

[GardoneVT]

Since we’re posting video links,here’s a case where DA/SA could have saved the day...
https://youtu.be/vg3SoK4Rh84

[HammerStriker]

Since we’re posting video links,here’s a case where DA/SA could have saved the day...
https://youtu.be/vg3SoK4Rh84

hahaha, what the heck happened there? Finger was clearly off the trigger. Guess he needs more training (sarcasm).

[JonInWA]

For me DA/SA done right is fantastic. I remember picking up a Colt Python in 94’ and and pulling the trigger. It was fantastic. I was too poor at the time to afford it. But that trigger pull stuck in my head. It was so smooth and light. I think it’s just that most DA/SA pistols from the factory are gritty and too heavy. Not every pistol buyer is going to send their pistol in for a trigger job. Some can’t afford that luxury either. Others don’t even know enough you can even do that. If gun manufacturers want to sell DA/SA I think they need to forget New York trigger pulls and go with a trigger customers won’t need to modify from the get go. I absolutely love my 92 LTT’s trigger as it is perfect for my needs. But I do remember the long heavy DA of my M9 in the USAF. Sure we have a plethora of polymer guns to compete with. A good SA to me feels better than a striker fired gun, but that’s completely subjective and I have not fired every single one of them. I tried out a CZ P07 I was expecting some god level trigger. It felt gritty and a tad heavy. Yes I’m sure a couple hundred rounds and it would smooth out, but I shouldn’t have to send it off to Cajun to get it the way it should have left the factory. An extra $150 for it with a better trigger from the factory sign me up. I’m sure there are legal reasons, I’m just saying what sells.

If you want some immediate gratification that'll take you back to that Python trigger, try a Beretta 92D-out of the box. And then add a LTT triggerbar and a Wilson Combat 14# mainspring (some go as low as 11#, but 14# is a good place to start, and then you can experiment from there; I'm at 13# with total reliability)-you'll think that Python somehow morphed into a semi-auto...

Best, Jon

[Coyote41]

hahaha, what the heck happened there? Finger was clearly off the trigger. Guess he needs more training (sarcasm).

Good question, what happened? The video is too low quality to tell. One of 3 things happened:

1911 holstered with safety off? DA would not help because he could have just as easily forgotton to decock. Again. You must train to use the decocker fo get that extra level of safety. So yep, more training.

Mechanical Malfunction (including idiot modified Glock)? Would a DA help here? Maybe. It would keep energy from being applied to the firearm when a part breaks. However, any modern firearm should have several “fail-safes” unless dicked with. So even a stock Glock would have prevented it. Again, the action doesn’t matter. Maybe if the shooter had more training, he wouldn’t feel the need to dick with his gun for “muh trigger”.

Stock pistol with something in the holster. Okay, here is where a DA/SA *could* help, *if* he trained with it. But, if he had checked his holster for obstructions, which is an import part of reholstering, which we teach and train, this would have prevented it. So in this scenario either a DA/SA or training would have helped.

So yes. It probably was a training issue.


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[M2CattleCo]

I, for one, appreciate your feedback.

Hearing over and over that it is all training and that trigger mechanism (i.e. SCIENCE!) have nothing to do with it drives me nuts. "Its a software problem not a hardware problem", seriously? Yes, if all else is equal it is likely a software problem, BUT not everything is equal. Different trigger mechanism acted upon with equal amounts of force can produce different outcomes. I do not believe that one can train to perfection--this doesn't exist. There are accounts of very skilled shooters having NDs during competition, people who have shot and practiced 100s of times more than I ever will. If they can make a mistake, so can I. Some trigger systems are more forgiving of getting your finger on the trigger too soon, or of not carefully re-holstering. To deny this is to deny the laws of physics. If the snarky poster thinks he can train to shoot equal across all trigger systems, I'd like to see it. There is only one Jerry Miculek and very few Langdons in this world.

EDIT: One more thought. The longer I shoot, the more people I meet that trick themselves into thinking that they can train all the danger out of this sport. We've chosen a dangerous sport/hobby and there are things that can be done outside of training to lower the probability of a mishap. One of these things is having a heavy and long first trigger pull, its called physics!


The thing about a DA first pull preventing a brain fart being really loud, is to make sure that you have the brain fart after you decock.

A DA/SA adds complexity and that makes them more prone to ND IMo.

[HammerStriker]

Good question, what happened? The video is too low quality to tell. One of 3 things happened:

1911 holstered with safety off? DA would not help because he could have just as easily forgotton to decock. Again. You must train to use the decocker fo get that extra level of safety. So yep, more training.

Mechanical Malfunction (including idiot modified Glock)? Would a DA help here? Maybe. It would keep energy from being applied to the firearm when a part breaks. However, any modern firearm should have several “fail-safes” unless dicked with. So even a stock Glock would have prevented it. Again, the action doesn’t matter. Maybe if the shooter had more training, he wouldn’t feel the need to dick with his gun for “muh trigger”.

Stock pistol with something in the holster. Okay, here is where a DA/SA *could* help, *if* he trained with it. But, if he had checked his holster for obstructions, which is an import part of reholstering, which we teach and train, this would have prevented it. So in this scenario either a DA/SA or training would have helped.

So yes. It probably was a training issue.


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It's really hard to tell, but it doesn't see like he has clothing hanging into his holster. Whey do we always assume that the shooter did something wrong, even when it doesn't appear he did? What if the guy sent his pistol to a smith for a trigger job and it was botched? Still a training issue?

[HammerStriker]

The thing about a DA first pull preventing a brain fart being really loud, is to make sure that you have the brain fart after you decock.

A DA/SA adds complexity and that makes them more prone to ND IMo.

Agreed, but how many cases are there actually where shooters have an ND after forgetting to de-cock? I don't know the answer and doubt anyone really does, I'm guessing (hoping) its pretty uncommon.

[spinmove_]

Agreed, but how many cases are there actually where shooters have an ND after forgetting to de-cock? I don't know the answer and doubt anyone really does, I'm guessing (hoping) its pretty uncommon.

The problem in that scenario isn't necessarily that there might be a chance of ND’ing, but the fact that the end user hasn’t ingrained decocking to a subconscious level before making it to the holster.

Hardware can only negate so many issues, but it’ll never work if you don’t train to use it properly.

[Sammy1]

The problem in that scenario isn't necessarily that there might be a chance of ND’ing, but the fact that the end user hasn’t ingrained decocking to a subconscious level before making it to the holster.

Hardware can only negate so many issues, but it’ll never work if you don’t train to use it properly.

I was issued a TDA for many years. I was taught to holster with my thumb on the back of the slide/next to hammer to ensure it was decocked and the slide was in battery. Years later, issued a Glock, I still holster with my thumb on the back of the slide out of habit.

[M2CattleCo]

The problem in that scenario isn't necessarily that there might be a chance of ND’ing, but the fact that the end user hasn’t ingrained decocking to a subconscious level before making it to the holster.

Hardware can only negate so many issues, but it’ll never work if you don’t train to use it properly.

Which makes my point too. If you always do everything properly as trained, you won't ND any trigger.

[0ddl0t]

It's really hard to tell, but it doesn't see like he has clothing hanging into his holster. Whey do we always assume that the shooter did something wrong, even when it doesn't appear he did?

Looks to me like his index finger inadvertently pushed a too soft/flimsy holster into the trigger:

Shirt looks to be well tucked in & out of the way:
44444

Finger indexed on frame:
44445

Is that a loose leather strap at the top of the holster? Some kind of adjustable retention strap?
44446

Finger still looks good:
44448

Index finger appears to be bending -- pushing floppy holster into trigger?
44447

Boom:
44449

[Clusterfrack]

I’m coming up on 100k shot through my CZs since I switched from striker guns. I am very safety conscious, because while lots of reps builds mastery, there is still a greater chance of a mistake. I want mistakes to be rendered harmless by other safety measures.

Decocking has become second nature, but as mentioned above, a thumb on the hammer verifies that decocking has occurred before holstering. Add slow, deliberate holstering, and I think a TDA gun can be safer than most other options.

However, it is more complicated, so there are more chances for an error. Eg. I was interrupted during practice a couple months ago, and caught myself holstering without decocking during the thumb on hammer step.

As I consider what is the best type of gun for my 22 year old daughter to use for defense, it is hard to decide between the simplicity of a Glock with a Gadget, and a TDA with a long trigger pull. If I was confident that she would practice daily or even weekly, I’d go with the TDA.

IMO, TDAs are not beginners guns, and require more practice to run safely and effectively.

[Clusterfrack]

Looks to me like his index finger inadvertently pushed a too soft/flimsy holster into the trigger:

Shirt looks to be well tucked in & out of the way:


Nice analysis of this. I was trying to figure out what happened. The holster and belt look squirrely. We had a ND at a steel match a few years ago when a guy holstered his gun in a floppy, bubba-modified holster. It didn't end as well as this one though. The guy shot himself through the thigh (superficial), calf (superficial), and foot (NOT superficial).

People just don't know what they don't know. At a USPSA match two weeks ago, a new guy showed up with a M&P in a foam Uncle Mike's. After he showed clear, my buddy who was the RO said "Dude. Get a real holster." The guy was very open to suggestions, which was good to see. Let's all go on a mission to rid the world of shitty, dangerous holsters. Or maybe not :confused:.

[spinmove_]

I’m coming up on 100k shot through my CZs since I switched from striker guns. I am very safety conscious, because while lots of reps builds mastery, there is still a greater chance of a mistake. I want mistakes to be rendered harmless by other safety measures.

Decocking has become second nature, but as mentioned above, a thumb on the hammer verifies that decocking has occurred before holstering. Add slow, deliberate holstering, and I think a TDA gun can be safer than most other options.

However, it is more complicated, so there are more chances for an error. Eg. I was interrupted during practice a couple months ago, and caught myself holstering without decocking during the thumb on hammer step.

As I consider what is the best type of gun for my 22 year old daughter to use for defense, it is hard to decide between the simplicity of a Glock with a Gadget, and a TDA with a long trigger pull. If I was confident that she would practice daily or even weekly, I’d go with the TDA.

IMO, TDAs are not beginners guns, and require more practice to run safely and effectively.

As much as I’d love to believe a TDA is safer for most people to use, I have to say that a properly maintained Glock with a SCD is probably the best of both worlds. Hard to beat that combo.

[Coyote41]

Agreed, but how many cases are there actually where shooters have an ND after forgetting to de-cock? I don't know the answer and doubt anyone really does, I'm guessing (hoping) its pretty uncommon.

It is not uncommon. I’ve known several shooters who carried TDA pistols cocked because they didn’t like the DA pull. They would even reholster this way. Well, they tried to until we put a stop to it, but with at least one of them, learning did not occur.

I see it out of forgetfulness often with 1911s, but I have never seen someone willfully reholster an off-safe 1911.

The only “safer” option in regardes to actions is DAO or LEM. I don’t think SFA/TDA/SAO have any humongous safety advantage when proper technique and quality support gear are used. They’re all just different.

You can neither train out, or hardware out the danger, but you can mitigate it to a degree where you are comfortable with the risks involved.

[Coyote41]

As much as I’d love to believe a TDA is safer for most people to use, I have to say that a properly maintained Glock with a SCD is probably the best of both worlds. Hard to beat that combo.

For the average person, I’d say this is the best combination of affordability, safety, and shootability as well.

Too bad Taurus outsells Glock.


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[medmo]

If you always do everything properly as trained, you won't ND any trigger.

Because we are humans it’s guaranteed that none of us will do everything properly every time all of the time. True fact. The safest thing is for all of us to switch back to revolvers with bobbed hammers and a 13lb pull. That should fix everything.

The original question is “DA/SA obsolete in terms of sales?” Not if you are selling to me. I’ve been back on board with TDA pistols for a few years now after a long journey in the SFA world. I’m back to stay. TDA pistols today are not the same as your daddy’s wonder nine from the 80’s. The pistol today has been revolutionized and evolutionized into something very different and far superior by LTT and others.

[Baldanders]

Too bad Taurus outsells Glock.



It does? Even if we exclude the USA LE market, I find that difficult to believe. Glock dominates many markets for pistols.

I say that as the owner of a PT92 that's been with my family since 1989. (I shoot it better than a Glock; I shoot it just as well as my px4 with all the bells and whistles, and as well as my friend's P220 with plenty of mods. But I am a DA shooter, and slow.)

ETA: TDA isn't obsolete, it's just a niche market skewed towards Gen X and older. I think it will disappear as we in the niche die.

Unless TDA semiautos blow up like SA revolvers in the 50s did due to pop culture/nostalgia .

[LockedBreech]

When I read "Taurus outsells Glock" it just reminds me that Firefly got canceled after one season but American Idol is still on. :(

[Coyote41]

When I read "Taurus outsells Glock" it just reminds me that Firefly got canceled after one season but American Idol is still on. :(

Not to go further off topic, but to go further off topic, this was heard from gun store employees. I can believe it because American (Walmart) culture counts price AS value (cheaper is always better). Also think of the marketing that Taurus does to the larger gun owning public. Joe Bob comes in and fondles the VP9/Sig/etc but buys the Taurus because it is cheaper.

It’s very believable. Think of how many PSA and Anderson AR’s are out there compared to Colt, BCM, or FN.

If I were to open a gun store today, I would not carry many, if any, TDA pistols. The only ones I would consider would be higher end ones because if someone wants a TDA pistol today it’s either because they’re a member of this forum or a USPSA competitor. To the general public, the Beretta M9 is that horrible pistol their friend’s cousin’s stepdad was issued and never worked.

[JonInWA]

Not to go further off topic, but to go further off topic, this was heard from gun store employees. I can believe it because American (Walmart) culture counts price AS value (cheaper is always better). Also think of the marketing that Taurus does to the larger gun owning public. Joe Bob comes in and fondles the VP9/Sig/etc but buys the Taurus because it is cheaper.

It’s very believable. Think of how many PSA and Anderson AR’s are out there compared to Colt, BCM, or FN.

If I were to open a gun store today, I would not carry many, if any, TDA pistols. The only ones I would consider would be higher end ones because if someone wants a TDA pistol today it’s either because they’re a member of this forum or a USPSA competitor. To the general public, the Beretta M9 is that horrible pistol their friend’s cousin’s stepdad was issued and never worked.

Or IDPA or ASI...

Best, Jon

[farscott]

For the average person, I’d say this is the best combination of affordability, safety, and shootability as well.

Too bad Taurus outsells Glock.


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As much as I’d love to believe a TDA is safer for most people to use, I have to say that a properly maintained Glock with a SCD is probably the best of both worlds. Hard to beat that combo.

My experience is that getting people to shell out for the SCD is much more difficult than it should be. People will drop $500 plus on a Glock, buy a few spare magazines, and then buy the cheapest holster and belt in the store. Adding money for a slide plate without the Punisher or the "Stars and Bars" on it is not going to happen. Trying to convince those people about the value of the SCD is futile. More than once I have heard, "There is no way I will shoot myself when holstering my Glock, so why would I pay $80 for something I do not need?" I just keep my mouth shut and go about my business, but everyone of my family's Glock pistols has a SCD on it.

[spinmove_]

My experience is that getting people to shell out for the SCD is much more difficult than it should be. People will drop $500 plus on a Glock, buy a few spare magazines, and then buy the cheapest holster and belt in the store. Adding money for a slide plate without the Punisher or the "Stars and Bars" on it is not going to happen. Trying to convince those people about the value of the SCD is futile. More than once I have heard, "There is no way I will shoot myself when holstering my Glock, so why would I pay $80 for something I do not need?" I just keep my mouth shut and go about my business, but everyone of my family's Glock pistols has a SCD on it.

You won’t be able to sell everyone on the concept. The best thing you can do is lead by example and be articulate in why you do what you do. The only real downside in my mind with the SCD is the price of admission. Not that it’s not worth the price because it totally is and then some.

[Coyote41]

Tom would be a millionaire if he’d put a punisher skull on the SCD.


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[HammerStriker]

Looks to me like his index finger inadvertently pushed a too soft/flimsy holster into the trigger:

I think you're right. Wow, must have shocked the hell out of him. He handled it pretty well, glad he was not hit.

[HammerStriker]

Which makes my point too. If you always do everything properly as trained, you won't ND any trigger.

Agreed, but with a DA/SA you would need to do two things wrong when holstering: 1. forget to de-cock, 2. finger on trigger, or snag on something. The DA pull is so heavy if you did 1, but messed up on 2, it is far less likely that the gun will go off than with a SFA. 2 things have to go wrong with the TDA and only 1 with the SFA.

[GJM]

Agreed, but with a DA/SA you would need to do two things wrong when holstering: 1. forget to de-cock, 2. finger on trigger, or snag on something. The DA pull is so heavy if you did 1, but messed up on 2, it is far less likely that the gun will go off than with a SFA. 2 things have to go wrong with the TDA and only 1 with the SFA.

In the Front Sight data, about 1/3 Negligent Discharges happen holstering, about 1/3 drawing, with the balance all over the place. Seems like we mostly focus on the holstering discharges in these discussions on PF.

[HammerStriker]

In the Front Sight data, about 1/3 Negligent Discharges happen holstering, about 1/3 drawing, with the balance all over the place. Seems like we mostly focus on the holstering discharges in these discussions on PF.

Interesting point. I'm thinking you're most likely to shoot yourself when holstering, that's probably why the focus on it. I have read Front Sight's AD/ND report and if I'm remembering correctly, there were more NDs with strikers than with TDA. Not sure if this is due the most students preferring strikers, so more striker guns out there? I wish it was possible to know the RATE of occurrence based on trigger mechanism.

[JSGlock34]

Seems like we mostly focus on the holstering discharges in these discussions on PF.

No doubt tied to the popularity of AIWB here.

I recently saw a scary picture of a self-inflicted leg wound; reportedly it occurred when a garment snagged the trigger while holstering.

[HammerStriker]

No doubt tied to the popularity of AIWB here.

I recently saw a scary picture of a self-inflicted leg wound; reportedly it occurred when a garment snagged the trigger while holstering.

Yikes, I'm guess it was not a de-cocked DA pull that fired after snagging....

[El Cid]

In the Front Sight data, about 1/3 Negligent Discharges happen holstering, about 1/3 drawing, with the balance all over the place. Seems like we mostly focus on the holstering discharges in these discussions on PF.

Just like in aviation most accidents occur during takeoff and landing. With guns most are holstering and drawing.

[GJM]

Interesting point. I'm thinking you're most likely to shoot yourself when holstering, that's probably why the focus on it. I have read Front Sight's AD/ND report and if I'm remembering correctly, there were more NDs with strikers than with TDA. Not sure if this is due the most students preferring strikers, so more striker guns out there? I wish it was possible to know the RATE of occurrence based on trigger mechanism.

It has been a year or two since I looked at the data, but despite a presumably high percentage of striker pistols going through there, I was surprised by how many DA/SA and 1911 pistols were involved in accidents.

[JSGlock34]

Yikes, I'm guess it was not a de-cocked DA pull that fired after snagging....

Reportedly a Glock 19.

[BehindBlueI's]

Just like in aviation most accidents occur during takeoff and landing. With guns most are holstering and drawing.

On the range, yes. In totality, no. Admin handling is the bulk of unintended discharges, at least those that cause injury or death. Reversing clearing steps then pulling the trigger is a huge cause.

[El Cid]

On the range, yes. In totality, no. Admin handling is the bulk of unintended discharges, at least those that cause injury or death. Reversing clearing steps then pulling the trigger is a huge cause.

Makes sense.

I always cringe going into or out of a facility where we have to lock our guns up in boxes. I figure it’s only a matter of time before someone cranks off a round. Like the video of the Marshal in El Paso about 15 or so years ago.

[10mmfanboy]

See? It always turns into which is the safest action lol.

Is TDA dead in sales in 2019? No, not yet, will it ever be the mainstream again? no, no it will not. Is TDA enjoying a slight up tick in sales last few years? yes.

Probably because people like me who don't like to be forced into the new hotness. Companies releasing firearms that haven't been tested enough before releasing them to the public to find out if it is a safe design or not probably has a lot to do with an up tick in sales for TDA.

[HammerStriker]

See? It always turns into which is the safest action lol.

Is TDA dead in sales in 2019? No, not yet, will it ever be the mainstream again? no, no it will not. Is TDA enjoying a slight up tick in sales last few years? yes.

Probably because people like me who don't like to be forced into the new hotness. Companies releasing firearms that haven't been tested enough before releasing them to the public to find out if it is a safe design or not probably has a lot to do with an up tick in sales for TDA.

Maybe, but I think the biggest driving factor of an uptick in sales of TDA pistols is Mr. Langdon's endorsement of them. I can't tell you how many YouTubers I've seen switch back to TDA and reference Ernie's abilities with the trigger mechanism. They repeat his talking points almost verbatim and even use his PX4 cc Langdon edition. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, we live in a capitalistic economy and I myself am a part of a sales organization. I know a valuable sales person when I see one, and I'm telling you, Ernie's pitch has sent a ripple effect across the gun community. He is worth every penny he gets from Beretta, hats off to him, I'm impressed. Beretta struck gold with him.

[spence]

Maybe, but I think the biggest driving factor of an uptick in sales of TDA pistols is Mr. Langdon's endorsement of them. I can't tell you how many YouTubers I've seen switch back to TDA and reference Ernie's abilities with the trigger mechanism. They repeat his talking points almost verbatim and even use his PX4 cc Langdon edition. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, we live in a capitalistic economy and I myself am a part of a sales organization. I know a valuable sales person when I see one, and I'm telling you, Ernie's pitch has sent a ripple effect across the gun community. He is worth every penny he gets from Beretta, hats off to him, I'm impressed. Beretta struck gold with him.

I finally got a Beretta, 12 years after I got out of the military, this spring. I thought it was going to be nothing but a range toy. Until I learned there was thin grips, G kit conversions, and lighter hammer springs. The commercial M9 morphed a bit, but now wears LTT grips, G kit, and a trigger job in a bag. It's my EDC and I shoot the wheels off it. It was followed not long later by a 92 compact, set up the same sans the trigger job. I got bit by the DA/SA bug because it's not the "norm" and I wanted to master it.

I pick up a PX4 compact tomorrow to continue to add to the madness. I don't see going back to striker fired any time soon.

[0ddl0t]

The only real downside in my mind with the SCD is the price of admission.
And the limited number of applications. I would love a SCD for my striker Sigs...



In the Front Sight data, about 1/3 Negligent Discharges happen holstering, about 1/3 drawing, with the balance all over the place. Seems like we mostly focus on the holstering discharges in these discussions on PF.
Good point.


Front Sight's data on NDs *that caused injury*

#1 (decocked) Sig 229 discharged on the draw

#2 (off safe) 1911 Gold Cup discharged upon holstering into improperly sized holster.

#3 1911 Para Ordnance discharged into support hand during the draw/presentation

#4 Glock 35 discharged upon fast reholstering

#5 (decocked) Sig 22x discharged on draw

#6 (decocked) Sig 22x discharged on draw

#7 (off safe) 1911 discharged upon holstering

#8 (off safe) 1911 discharged upon holstering

#9 (Serpa) XD discharged on the draw

#10 (Serpa) XD discharged on the draw

#11 (Serpa) 1911 discharged on the draw

#12 Glock 34 discharged with finger on trigger between strings of fire

#13 M&P discharged on the draw

#14 XDM discharged on the draw

#15 Glock 24 discharged while clearing malfunction with finger on trigger

#16 Glock 22 discharged on the draw

#17 (off safe) 1911 discharged upon holstering

#18 Glock 19 discharged upon holstering

#19 (off safe) 1911 discharged upon holstering

#20 XDM discharged upon difficulty holstering

#21 M&P discharged into support hand during the draw/presentation

#22 7yard rifle splatter/ricochet struck student in neck

#23 PDQ discharged on the draw

#24 M&P discharged upon holstering

#25 (decocked) CZ75 discharged upon holstering

#26 M&P discharged upon holstering

Interestingly, almost all of the NDs came towards the end of multi-day classes. Anyway, the breakdown by action:

10 discharges into leg on the draw
2 discharges into hand during presentation
11 discharges into leg reholstering
2 discharges into leg/foot during administrative handling
1 ricochet/splatter that I wouldn't count as ND...


Agreed, but how many cases are there actually where shooters have an ND after forgetting to de-cock? I don't know the answer and doubt anyone really does, I'm guessing (hoping) its pretty uncommon.
From front sight's data:

DA/SA: 4 NDs (16%) all decocked. 3 on draw, 1 while holstering

SA: 7 NDs (28%). 5 while holstering, 1 on draw, 1 on presentation

SFA: 14 NDs (56%). 5 while holstering, 6 on the draw, 1 on presentation, 2 during administrative handling


We do know that they had 7 NDs in their first 12 years (only 1 SFA) and 18 in their second 12 years (13 SFA) which would suggest strikers are less safe, though it may be that they're serving 150% more customers now and most are now using SFA... Unfortunately, we just don't have the base rates to know what percentage of students used TDA/SFA/SA (and how much the trend has changed in 24 years).

[Bucky]

And the limited number of applications. I would love a SCD for my striker Sigs...



Good point.


Front Sight's data on NDs *that caused injury*

#1 (decocked) Sig 229 discharged on the draw

#2 (off safe) 1911 Gold Cup discharged upon holstering into improperly sized holster.

#3 1911 Para Ordnance discharged into support hand during the draw/presentation

#4 Glock 35 discharged upon fast reholstering

#5 (decocked) Sig 22x discharged on draw

#6 (decocked) Sig 22x discharged on draw

#7 (off safe) 1911 discharged upon holstering

#8 (off safe) 1911 discharged upon holstering

#9 (Serpa) XD discharged on the draw

#10 (Serpa) XD discharged on the draw

#11 (Serpa) 1911 discharged on the draw

#12 Glock 34 discharged with finger on trigger between strings of fire

#13 M&P discharged on the draw

#14 XDM discharged on the draw

#15 Glock 24 discharged while clearing malfunction with finger on trigger

#16 Glock 22 discharged on the draw

#17 (off safe) 1911 discharged upon holstering

#18 Glock 19 discharged upon holstering

#19 (off safe) 1911 discharged upon holstering

#20 XDM discharged upon difficulty holstering

#21 M&P discharged into support hand during the draw/presentation

#22 7yard rifle splatter/ricochet struck student in neck

#23 PDQ discharged on the draw

#24 M&P discharged upon holstering

#25 (decocked) CZ75 discharged upon holstering

#26 M&P discharged upon holstering

Interestingly, almost all of the NDs came towards the end of multi-day classes. Anyway, the breakdown by action:

10 discharges into leg on the draw
2 discharges into hand during presentation
11 discharges into leg reholstering
2 discharges into leg/foot during administrative handling
1 ricochet/splatter that I wouldn't count as ND...


From front sight's data:

DA/SA: 4 NDs (16%) all decocked. 3 on draw, 1 while holstering

SA: 7 NDs (28%). 5 while holstering, 1 on draw, 1 on presentation

SFA: 14 NDs (56%). 5 while holstering, 6 on the draw, 1 on presentation, 2 during administrative handling


We do know that they had 7 NDs in their first 12 years (only 1 SFA) and 18 in their second 12 years (13 SFA) which would suggest strikers are less safe, though it may be that they're serving 150% more customers now and most are now using SFA... Unfortunately, we just don't have the base rates to know what percentage of students used TDA/SFA/SA (and how much the trend has changed in 24 years).

So, the only gun to not go off during holstering, when placed in its proper safe holstering condition is the 1911. :cool: :p

[JTQ]

Thanks for the Front Sight data.



We do know that they had 7 NDs in their first 12 years (only 1 SFA) and 18 in their second 12 years (13 SFA) which would suggest strikers are less safe, though it may be that they're serving 150% more customers now and most are now using SFA...
Perhaps as they became more known as a training facility, the quality of their students decreased.

[Medusa]

. We had a ND at a steel match a few years ago when a guy holstered his gun in a floppy, bubba-modified holster. It didn't end as well as this one though. The guy shot himself through the thigh (superficial), calf (superficial), and foot (NOT superficial).


I think I know him from racing. Nice man, does things a little differently, for good and ill (example, autocrossing a Crown Vic) . He told me he’d had an nd at a steel match. I got the sense from talking to him he faults the weapon more than the holster, but I might have misunderstood.

[HammerStriker]

. We do know that they had 7 NDs in their first 12 years (only 1 SFA) and 18 in their second 12 years (13 SFA) which would suggest strikers are less safe, though it may be that they're serving 150% more customers now and most are now using SFA... Unfortunately, we just don't have the base rates to know what percentage of students used TDA/SFA/SA (and how much the trend has changed in 24 years).

Good work, thank you for summarizing so nicely. Although we don't have base rates, we can use other credible data to supplement Front Sight's. It is pretty well known that when the LA Police department switched from Beretta 92s to M&Ps NDs soared. The Inspector General's report is accessible here: https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/docs.puppycidedb.com/california/Los+Angeles+County+Sheriff/Los+Angeles+County+-+Unintended+Discharge+Report.pdf

I'm a SFA fan and own one too. I do not think SFAs are inherently unsafe, but I do think that when put in the hands of infallible human beings (which we all are), the chances for a mishap are greater than with DA/SA , or pistols with an external safety. The inspector generals findings were that the M&Ps were not malfunctioning, rather, the human beings were by making mistakes. We all make mistakes no matter how hard we train/practice. Of corse it is not the gun, but I do not believe anyone is infallible, so there is a place for mechanical safety mechanism in my mind. DA/SA carry more safety features than a Glock because of the heavy first trigger pull, it's kind of obvious I think...

[GJM]

Good work, thank you for summarizing so nicely. Although we don't have base rates, we can use other credible data to supplement Front Sight's. It is pretty well known that when the LA Police department switched from Beretta 92s to M&Ps NDs soared. The Inspector General's report is accessible here: https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/docs.puppycidedb.com/california/Los+Angeles+County+Sheriff/Los+Angeles+County+-+Unintended+Discharge+Report.pdf

I'm a SFA fan and own one too. I do not think SFAs are inherently unsafe, but I do think that when put in the hands of infallible human beings (which we all are), the chances for a mishap are greater than with DA/SA or pistols with an external safety.

My recollection may be imperfect, but I thought the ND rate soared when they transitioned to the M&P striker, but went back to the previous rate post the transition?

[HammerStriker]

My recollection may be imperfect, but I thought the ND rate soared when they transitioned to the M&P striker, but went back to the previous rate post the transition?

Even if this is the case (which I don't know whether or not it is), then they should have had equal ND incidence when training new recruits on the 92F. Were new recruits learning on the 92Fs having a similar rate of NDs as when folks transitioned to M&Ps? that would also be a valid data point. Somehow I'm guess the incidences after adopting the M&P caught the inspector general's attention because they had never had such a high rate of NDs prior to the M&P. That tells me it is easier for people to screw up on a M&P than on a Beretta - I know the opposite conclusion is popular on the internet (de-cockers/levers, too complicated, etc).

[spinmove_]

My recollection may be imperfect, but I thought the ND rate soared when they transitioned to the M&P striker, but went back to the previous rate post the transition?

Daryl Bolke, I believe, knows exactly how this went down. Mayhaps he can chime in here and refresh our memories.

[AMC]

Daryl Bolke, I believe, knows exactly how this went down. Mayhaps he can chime in here and refresh our memories.

SoCalDep can probably speak to the issue better than anyone, but it's my understanding that this occurred at LASD, not LAPD. The issue was the very abbreviated Transition course for in service officer coming from a 92fs mandated to be carried on safe. It was the In Service folks who experienced the increase in NDs, not the Academy recruits who were trained on a SFA from the jump.

The LAPD course was initially 3 days, then cut to two I believe. They also initially mandated anyone coming from a DA/SA to a SFA complete additional qualifications during the first year they carried it....all of which was believed to be why they didn't experience the same increase in NDs. Of course, those closer to the issue could explain better. This was my understanding from my discussions with folks down there about these issues.

[HammerStriker]

SoCalDep can probably speak to the issue better than anyone, but it's my understanding that this occurred at LASD, not LAPD. The issue was the very abbreviated Transition course for in service officer coming from a 92fs mandated to be carried on safe. It was the In Service folks who experienced the increase in NDs, not the Academy recruits who were trained on a SFA from the jump.

The LAPD course was initially 3 days, then cut to two I believe. They also initially mandated anyone coming from a DA/SA to a SFA complete additional qualifications during the first year they carried it....all of which was believed to be why they didn't experience the same increase in NDs. Of course, those closer to the issue could explain better. This was my understanding from my discussions with folks down there about these issues.

You're correct, the LASD was investigated by the Deputy Inspector General after seeing an uptick in NDs following their conversion to M&Ps. The LAPD experienced an increase in NDs after switching to Glocks, I believe.

Something intersting found in the LASD Inspector General's report is the reason cited for moving from Beretta 92s to M&Ps. They made the transition so that more women could pass qualifications. :|

The LASD for one did not switch form DA/SA to Striker, because strikers are superior or to save cost. They did it so that more women could successful join the force by making it easier for them to qualify - the 92s were too heavy, too big, and too difficult to manipulate in DA mode for women.

[SoCalDep]

AMC got it. The differences between the LAPD and LASD approaches and results in striker conversion are a bit more complex but I can’t really get into the details without ruffling some feathers so I’ll try to be general.

The following is specific to a large Sheriff’s department.

First, it is correct that it has largely been an in service issue vs an academy issue. Also, it is my understanding that ND rates are back down to normal/below normal now (I’m knocking on every piece of wood I can find). I have serious problems with the OIG report... I was thankfully in a position to make our case and we still have the M&P, still have the Surefire DG switch / WML pressure switches, and we’re able to appropriately address the issues that (were ignored by the report) gave rise to the ND increase.

As for DA vs Striker, I think DA is “safer”, but I also think that over-dependence on mechanical devices in lieu of proper safety fundamentals is a recipe for disaster. It isn’t enough safer that less safety training is warranted, and it’s enough more complicated that increased action-specific skill development is necessary compared to striker-fired pistols. A good shooter with a DA can be just as effective if not more than striker guns, but for the masses, striker guns generally increase average performance. While there are surely exceptions for certain small agencies and units, striker fired guns are more appropriate for general issue to most law enforcement agencies, but I still really like DA guns - I love my Berettas. I don’t think they are going anywhere but I also don’t think they will ever give strikers a run for the market share.

[SoCalDep]

You're correct, the LASD was investigated by the Deputy Inspector General after seeing an uptick in NDs following their conversion to M&Ps. The LAPD experienced an increase in NDs after switching to Glocks, I believe.

Something intersting found in the LASD Inspector General's report is the reason cited for moving from Beretta 92s to M&Ps. They made the transition so that more women could pass qualifications. :|

The LASD for one did not switch form DA/SA to Striker, because strikers are superior or to save cost. They did it so that more women could successful join the force by making it easier for them to qualify - the 92s were too heavy, too big, and too difficult to manipulate in DA mode for women.

Don’t put too much stock in that report... it is far from the full or clear picture.

[HammerStriker]

AMC got it. The differences between the LAPD and LASD approaches and results in striker conversion are a bit more complex but I can’t really get into the details without ruffling some feathers so I’ll try to be general.

The following is specific to a large Sheriff’s department.

First, it is correct that it has largely been an in service issue vs an academy issue. Also, it is my understanding that ND rates are back down to normal/below normal now (I’m knocking on every piece of wood I can find). I have serious problems with the OIG report... I was thankfully in a position to make our case and we still have the M&P, still have the Surefire DG switch / WML pressure switches, and we’re able to appropriately address the issues that (were ignored by the report) gave rise to the ND increase.

As for DA vs Striker, I think DA is “safer”, but I also think that over-dependence on mechanical devices in lieu of proper safety fundamentals is a recipe for disaster. It isn’t enough safer that less safety training is warranted, and it’s enough more complicated that increased action-specific skill development is necessary compared to striker-fired pistols. A good shooter with a DA can be just as effective if not more than striker guns, but for the masses, striker guns generally increase average performance. While there are surely exceptions for certain small agencies and units, striker fired guns are more appropriate for general issue to most law enforcement agencies, but I still really like DA guns - I love my Berettas. I don’t think they are going anywhere but I also don’t think they will ever give strikers a run for the market share.

Thank you for your feedback, I understand not wanting to ruffle any feathers. If someone was deciding between a Sig P226 and Glock 17 to be used as a bedside gun/for HD, which would you steer them towards? Say they get out to the range about once per month to practice and are not interested in competing with either or the guns, or carrying them...purely for home defense and range time.

[0ddl0t]

So I've never really looked into the LEM before, but it sounds like a great compromise. Am I missing something?

My understanding of the LEM:
Long double action-like first pull (similar to DA/SA)
Short reset/short 2nd pull if you don't fully release the trigger (similar to DA/SA 2nd shot)
If you do fully release the trigger, you get that long double-action like pull again. No need to decock (unlike DA/SA).

[GJM]

So I've never really looked into the LEM before, but it sounds like a great compromise. Am I missing something?

Just years one through five on Pistol-Forum.

[10mmfanboy]

So I've never really looked into the LEM before, but it sounds like a great compromise. Am I missing something?

My understanding of the LEM:
Long double action-like first pull (similar to DA/SA)
Short reset/short 2nd pull if you don't fully release the trigger (similar to DA/SA 2nd shot)
If you do fully release the trigger, you get that long double-action like pull again. No need to decock (unlike DA/SA).

Yes, although if you fully let off the trigger during firing, then the first pull is heavier than the first pull is normally after you load the gun.

[0ddl0t]

Yes, although if you fully let off the trigger during firing, then the first pull is heavier than the first pull is normally after you load the gun.

Oh really? Darn, I thought the extra heavy trigger was only if you needed a 2nd strike. I guess the search for the best mousetrap continues...

[farscott]

So I've never really looked into the LEM before, but it sounds like a great compromise. Am I missing something?

My understanding of the LEM:
Long double action-like first pull (similar to DA/SA)
Short reset/short 2nd pull if you don't fully release the trigger (similar to DA/SA 2nd shot)
If you do fully release the trigger, you get that long double-action like pull again. No need to decock (unlike DA/SA).

If I had a job where a portion of it involved pointing a pistol at people and I got to the pick the pistol, a P30 LEM would be in my holster. The compromise for the "more margin for error" that LEM offers both when pointing a gun at someone and during drawing and holstering is a pistol that is harder to shoot accurately at speed. Several years with LEM has improved my shooting with DA/SA and SFA platforms. My only issue with the P30 LEM is my inability to detail strip and assemble. My dream pistol is a a P30 LEM that can be detail stripped and assembled with a single punch.

[WobblyPossum]

Yes, although if you fully let off the trigger during firing, then the first pull is heavier than the first pull is normally after you load the gun.

That’s not correct. The only time the trigger pull is heavy like a normal double action pull is if the hammer drops (pre-cocked internal hammer piece becomes uncocked) but the slide doesn’t cycle to recock the internal hammer piece. That only normally happens if you have a failure to fire. It’s the double strike capability of the LEM system. If you pull the trigger and the pistol and ammunition function as they should, the action of the pistol will recock the internal components and the trigger pull will continue being light.

This tends to confuse people in dry fire if they don’t know to cycle the slide after a trigger press. The first pull is the normal LEM pull (light weight but long trigger stroke) but the next pull is heavy like a traditional DAO gun.

[JSGlock34]

So I've never really looked into the LEM before, but it sounds like a great compromise.


Just years one through five on Pistol-Forum.

Okay, I laughed out loud at this.

Here's some best of LEM reading to catch up.

Why I like the LEM as a "street trigger" (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?9457-Why-I-like-the-LEM-as-a-quot-street-trigger-quot) - Darryl Bolke

Why the P30 (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?8821-Why-the-P30/page20) - Ernest Langdon

Pistol-Training.com P30 Thursday (http://pistol-training.com/archives/category/range-reports/p30-thursday) - Todd Green

[GardoneVT]

They made the transition so that more women could pass qualifications. :|

The LASD for one did not switch form DA/SA to Striker, because strikers are superior or to save cost. They did it so that more women could successful join the force by making it easier for them to qualify - the 92s were too heavy, too big, and too difficult to manipulate in DA mode for women.

Why is this a bad thing? Many people of both genders can’t comfortably run a 92F( thus the Vertec). An agency should be commended for adapting the equipment to the users.

Back to topic- I’m curious how many of those class NDs were from students using unfamiliar guns.

My anecdotal experience as an RSO is most “normal folk” carry a pocket gun for the 1 in 10 times they do CCW. They never wear full size pistols unless they’re at the range or a class. Since most training courses mandate a service caliber pistol, folks bring the 9mm Glock , order ammo + holster and figure they’re good to go. Then after a week of intensive training , handling a gun they’ve basically never used seriously prior to the course...mental fatigue hits and BAM!

While there’s solid reasons behind making people bring “real guns” to classes, I wonder if there isn’t a good argument for holding pocket gun courses using .22LR and up. Training people to use a gun they’ll never carry doesn’t seem to make much sense, whereas training around the pocket gun they’ll actually wear makes more sense ( even if it’s not as macho).

[HCM]

Yes, although if you fully let off the trigger during firing, then the first pull is heavier than the first pull is normally after you load the gun.


That’s not correct. The only time the trigger pull is heavy like a normal double action pull is if the hammer drops (pre-cocked internal hammer piece becomes uncocked) but the slide doesn’t cycle to recock the internal hammer piece. That only normally happens if you have a failure to fire. It’s the double strike capability of the LEM system. If you pull the trigger and the pistol and ammunition function as they should, the action of the pistol will recock the internal components and the trigger pull will continue being light.

This tends to confuse people in dry fire if they don’t know to cycle the slide after a trigger press. The first pull is the normal LEM pull (light weight but long trigger stroke) but the next pull is heavy like a traditional DAO gun.

This ^^^^

[HCM]

So I've never really looked into the LEM before, but it sounds like a great compromise. Am I missing something?

My understanding of the LEM:
Long double action-like first pull (similar to DA/SA)
Short reset/short 2nd pull if you don't fully release the trigger (similar to DA/SA 2nd shot)
If you do fully release the trigger, you get that long double-action like pull again. No need to decock (unlike DA/SA).

No, it is not like DA/SA. it is a short pull DAO, "pre-set" with a long take up. Think of it as hammer fired version of a Glock "Safe Action."

To simplify this, the LEM pull is the same every shot when the internal hammer is cocked.

The LEM has a long take up/ slack without any real resistance then you hit the "wall" of the actual trigger pull.

DA implies the "double action" of pulling the trigger and that same action cocking the hammer or striker. The slack is really not DA because it is not doing anything else. The cocked internal hammer has already pre-set that part of the cycle.

In practice most people don't fully release the slack and run it as a short DAO.

If the round fails to fire, and the internal hammer is not cocked by the slide cycling, the system defaults to a true DAO allowing a second strike capability.

That probably sounds pretty weird. The LEM concept was based on studies by the FBI and German Police agencies indicating that length of pull was more significant in preventing unintentional trigger pulls than weight.

The LEM is "it's own animal." it requires dedicated practice. DA Revolver shooting helps but otherwise if you want to be good with an LEM you need to stick to LEM only. If you try to switch back and forth between LEM and other trigger systems you will get very frustrated.

[GJM]

LEM concept was based on studies by the FBI and German Police agencies indicating that length of pull was more significant in preventing unintentional trigger pulls than weight.

Not sure about the German Police studies, but my recollection is when we did the deep dive, the supposed FBI “studies” didn’t exist.

[YVK]

Just years one through five on Pistol-Forum.

Best years of my shooting career.

[gato naranja]

While there’s solid reasons behind making people bring “real guns” to classes, I wonder if there isn’t a good argument for holding pocket gun courses using .22LR and up. Training people to use a gun they’ll never carry doesn’t seem to make much sense, whereas training around the pocket gun they’ll actually wear makes more sense ( even if it’s not as macho).

One instructor not far from me has trained a number of people on (tiny drum roll please) the Ruger SR22... and for some of the same reasons you mention.

My wife's SR22 has a DA pull that would qualify as "robust," but she likes it well enough to WANT to practice with it. With CCI Mini Mags and reasonable maintenance, it is pretty reliable, though some ammo and/or a build up of rimfire blowback gunk can bring it to grief. I have said my piece to her about carrying such a thing, but it beats nothing.

gn

[HCM]

Not sure about the German Police studies, but my recollection is when we did the deep dive, the supposed FBI “studies” didn’t exist.

It was either non-public, and/ or was basically a regurgitation of the German police study.

Having a study implying that length of trigger pull was more important than wait is probably not what you want floating around when you’re trying to get Congress to give you money 15 or 20,000 Glocks.

[SoCalDep]

Thank you for your feedback, I understand not wanting to ruffle any feathers. If someone was deciding between a Sig P226 and Glock 17 to be used as a bedside gun/for HD, which would you steer them towards? Say they get out to the range about once per month to practice and are not interested in competing with either or the guns, or carrying them...purely for home defense and range time.

Such a seemingly simple question... so many possible variables.

First... ‘Merica. We get to live in a country where people generally aren’t trying to kill us on a daily basis, so the want vs need ratio can be a bit more fluid. If I want to carry a particular handgun and that handgun is reliable and reasonably accurate, I’m proficient in its manipulation, and it is sufficiently powerful to meet my perceived need... I’m probably not gonna get killt on da streets.

So next I’m gonna look at the big picture. I’m gonna assume this is gonna be a one-gun solution, because if this person was going to shoot other platforms the Sig can have its drawbacks... as good a gun as it is. Both guns lack a manual safety, which from a safety standpoint could count against, but from a performance standpoint would likely be considered a plus (I ran a Beretta safety-on for years on patrol and during my FAST test and I’ve done ok, but I also know the tricks to making it work... and I practice a fair bit). What are the person’s priorities? Is this a safety blanket or are there specific threats/motivators for a defensive handgun?

I would probably want this person to shoot both pistols on a timed course of fire to evaluate accuracy under time constraints, see how they manipulate the pistols, and let them experience each and get their subjective input.

If the time was there I would discuss the advantages and disadvantages of the platforms (and others) and provide some instruction on the specifics of each.

In the end, it is their choice, not mine. Depending on what I see after the above, I could go either way in a recommendation.

If I was standing at a gun counter waiting for my 130th ten-day-wait to expire so the government is assured I’m not immediately homicidal for this specific firearm and I had to give a recommendation or he would buy a Hi-Point Yeet Cannon (I actually bought a Hi-Point last year... I’ve owned less reliable guns)... I’d probably say Glock.

As for the M&P being adopted so females can pass quals... I’ll try to put it this way... A more appropriate handgun choice for wider demographics is to the M&P like the Ukraine is to an Impeachment inquiry... Serendipidy is alive and well.

In regards to the LEM, my department looked at it, partly (as explained to me) as a small-hand solution around 2005. They were authorized, a recruit could purchase one and use it in the academy, and I purchased a P2000SK and carried it off duty for a while. I don’t know why the M&P direction won out, but I know the firearm training staff (with a different acronym) seriously preferred the M&P. Last November I purchased a P30V1. I tried to like it. It’s gone and has been replaced by a bunch of M&P 2.0s...

I still sometimes shoot a Beretta... or a 1911... ‘Merica.

[m.mancini]

Not sure about the German Police studies, but my recollection is when we did the deep dive, the supposed FBI “studies” didn’t exist.

I don't know if the actual material of the German Police study was ever made public or in which form it existed, but the resulting Technical Guideline for Service Weapons is available online and I remember seeing it on this forum as well ("I think", not sure about the last point).

I just re-read the trigger pull section of the last guideline revision, and while it never states that trigger lenght is more important than trigger weight to prevent ADs, it provides figures for trigger pull lenght and weight:

First shot:
6.7 pounds min. weight (no max value given)
min 10mm to max 15mm pull lenght (in the presence of a trigger tab-safety can be increased to up to 18mm max --this doesnt make sense to me but is reiterated twice in the document)

Follow-up shots:
4.5 pounds min. weight (has to be the same for all follow-up shots, no max value given)
min. 7mm pull lenght (assuming the trigger will traver freely forward upon resetting, not held at reset point, no max value given)
min. 4mm reset distance

A couple of interesting points unrelated to trigger pull weight: max force for operating (cycling) the slide manually 22.5 pounds, no manual safeties allowed, trigger pull is allowed for disassembly procedure (I checked this last point multiple times, as I find it particularly interesting)

[RJ]

The LEM is "it's own animal." it requires dedicated practice. DA Revolver shooting helps but otherwise if you want to be good with an LEM you need to stick to LEM only. If you try to switch back and forth between LEM and other trigger systems you will get very frustrated.

HCM and GJM nail it as usual.

My tl;dr experience with LEM:

1) Read LEM thread 000's of times. Conclude "hey, this is cool, I need to add a P30SK LEM V1 to my VP9 for, you know, defensive carry."

2) Attempt to shoot USPSA with a VP9, and at the same time, maintain proficiency with my LEM.

3) Take an actual Defensive Training Class with Tom Givens, using the LEM. Realize that, in fact, I really suck at shooting both an LEM and a SFA pistol, at the same time.

4) Sell both HKs and buy a Glock 19 with an SCD.


But seriously...yeah if you are good like say a USPSA B shooter or better, chances are you can manage to master the LEM and be effective with it. For us schmucks that are struggling in D class, sure, you can shoot a LEM but IT NEEDS TO BE THE ONLY TRIGGER YOU SHOOT or it messes with your brain.

Good luck trying it out. It has many many advantages and if you find the juice worth the squeeze, an HK in LEM is a fantastic firearm.

[M2CattleCo]

In regards to the LEM, my department looked at it, partly (as explained to me) as a small-hand solution around 2005. They were authorized, a recruit could purchase one and use it in the academy, and I purchased a P2000SK and carried it off duty for a while. I don’t know why the M&P direction won out, but I know the firearm training staff (with a different acronym) seriously preferred the M&P. Last November I purchased a P30V1. I tried to like it. It’s gone and has been replaced by a bunch of M&P 2.0s...

I still sometimes shoot a Beretta... or a 1911... ‘Merica.

I've shot with a lot CBP guys over the years and I can't recall one person who had anything good to say about the P2K LEM. They're difficult to shoot well. Bottom line.

[David S.]

Having listened to a bunch of content from guys like Bolke and Langdon on this, I get the impression that the relevance curve for DA/SA is something like the inverse of Caleb's relevance curve for revolvers. Thoughts?


https://youtu.be/CEHtRkyTe-0

[Clusterfrack]

Having listened to a bunch of content from guys like Bolke and Langdon on this, I get the impression that the relevance curve for DA/SA is something like the inverse of Caleb's relevance curve for revolvers. Thoughts?


I think the utility curve is a negative exponential.

(Random curve used below)
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191107/daafa7e4e7f5504f4d915ee0091b2c5d.jpg

[Manbearspider]

To answer the title of this thread: if we're talking having the majority of the market? Yeah, probably. DA/SA is very unlikely to overtake SFA ever again because of the earlier mentioned easier to attain average 'proficient' level thats all that mattes for the majority of gun owners.

For shooters though? I think DA/SA is far from obsolete. With all that's been done to update a lot of the classic platforms to overcome what was seen for a long time as their weak points (grips, decock only models, light and smooth triggers, etc), the action type is the best it's ever been. I'm more comfortable on the platform since that's what I started on, its pretty much all I train with, and it's my carry and competition rigs. So I'm definitely biased.

But I like the extra buffer in the travel on that first trigger pull off the draw, I feel more comfortable holstering with control of the hammer (I know that's on me, not a knock on SFA), and you know what? I can pick up most any SFA gun and feel fine running that too since I train on a pretty wide gamut of trigger pulls. Honestly the only system I don't feel confident in running (acknowledging the weak part of the system in this system is me, not the gun) is SAO since I'm used to either not worrying about the trigger being too light, or just index then go.

I think/hope for serious shooters gaining proficiency in DA/SA will come back as a 'must', but it'll take a serious ush by some indusrty leaders to really make the case to the wider market.

[OlongJohnson]

It occurred to me to argue that the higher price of quality DA/SA or DAO guns vs. plastic SF guns is likely to be overwhelming for agency procurement. No real opinions here, just observations.

P250s suffered from Sig stepping on its dick with the launch. They were excellent by the end; I've been asking myself whether I think I can get a 92D to be as smooth and light as my two P250s.

SP2022 is basically a polymer classic Sig, at least on the outside, and many expect it to be the most consistent quality Sig. I haven't shot one.

Both are cheaper than Glocks and arguably should be as reliable. P250 is discontinued and SP2022 is only bought by the US.gov for Columbia's police, AFAIK.

I've tried a PX4 and didn't love it for ergonomic reasons that are likely personal.

I'm not really aware of any other credible counterexamples to the pricing argument. Interesting that two are Sig.

[GJM]

What would get me enthused is a family of DA/SA pistols, covering the spectrum from compact carry to duty to competition, with HK reliability, CZ or better ergos, great triggers, polymer construction, and a optics ready configuration. Extra points if they have a variant that will shoot .45 Super. :D

[oldtexan]

Having listened to a bunch of content from guys like Bolke and Langdon on this, I get the impression that the relevance curve for DA/SA is something like the inverse of Caleb's relevance curve for revolvers. Thoughts?


https://youtu.be/CEHtRkyTe-0

David, I'd like to hear your thoughts on why the DA/SA curve is an inverted U.

Watching this interesting video from Caleb, it's clear to me that when he uses the term utility (at least for the shooter with middling skills), he must mean utility relative to other types of handguns, as opposed to utility in an absolute sense. If he meant utility in an absolute sense, the utility curve would seem unlikely to trend downward as skill increases.

It would be very interesting to compare a set of absolute curves for a variety of types of concealed handguns.

[UNM1136]

DA/SA will always have a warm spot in my heart, as it was my third (fourth?getting old)duty piece (my first POLICE piece, I carried a M66/M19 and Glock 21 privately first)

The market appears to be going SFA...I think the DA/SA will have another 80-90 years before it is the dinosaur. (My longest serving duty piece was a 1911)

pat

[oldtexan]

I think this might be an abstract for the aforementioned German police study.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1518/001872006778606813

I haven't accessed it because I'm not sure it would be worth the $36 fee to do so.

[OlongJohnson]

This thread has given me the idea to compile all the background docs, research papers, reports, opinions, etc. in one post. I think I have most of them or at least know where to find them. There have been several threads in recent months where even people who have or had at one time a working knowledge of them have kinda been collectively scratching their heads about the details.

If I do that, I'll even spend the money for the ones behind a paywall. I think the knowledge is cheap in the big picture, at least for me. No posting docs that are behind paywalls, but certainly links to where everything can be found.

[OlongJohnson]

I've shot with a lot CBP guys over the years and I can't recall one person who had anything good to say about the P2K LEM. They're difficult to shoot well. Bottom line.

I seem to remember HCM saying a few of them tried to hang onto their USPc's for as long as possible after the P2Ks were issued, but I was thinking the USPc's were LEM, too.




https://youtu.be/CEHtRkyTe-0

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/axis

plural axes\ ˈak-​ˌsēz \

[HCM]

I seem to remember HCM saying a few of them tried to hang onto their USPc's for as long as possible after the P2Ks were issued, but I was thinking the USPc's were LEM, too.




https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/axis

plural axes\ ˈak-​ˌsēz \

Those with USPC’s do try and hold on to them. They have nicer /smoother triggers and and a slightly different recoil impulse than the P2Ks.

The fact is any G 19 size gun in 40 is hard to shoot well. It’s even harder to shoot when you were shooting hotter than normal 155 or 135 grain 40 ammo.

[10mmfanboy]

Anyone lucky enough to own that one gun that you feel like you just can't miss with? That is the p2000 for me. Ergo's are meh, 3 dot meprolight sights which I hate, and a ho hum trigger. Apparently none of that stuff matters on how accurate a pistol is for me. I have beretta's with way better triggers and sights yet still the p2000 works best for me.

[Bucky]

Anyone lucky enough to own that one gun that you feel like you just can't miss with? That is the p2000 for me. Ergo's are meh, 3 dot meprolight sights which I hate, and a ho hum trigger. Apparently none of that stuff matters on how accurate a pistol is for me. I have beretta's with way better triggers and sights yet still the p2000 works best for me.

My P2000 is the gun I struggle with the most. It’s a great firearm though, and sized just right. Glad it works out for you.

[LSP552]

What would get me enthused is a family of DA/SA pistols, covering the spectrum from compact carry to duty to competition, with HK reliability, CZ or better ergos, great triggers, polymer construction, and a optics ready configuration. Extra points if they have a variant that will shoot .45 Super. :D

Let me know when you find that! I’d buy a few sets....

[LSP552]

It was either non-public, and/ or was basically a regurgitation of the German police study.

Having a study implying that length of trigger pull was more important than wait is probably not what you want floating around when you’re trying to get Congress to give you money 15 or 20,000 Glocks.

Dusting off ancient memories, it did exist. I was a exposed as a young LSP firearms instructor in the early 80s. IIRC, it was for official agency use only and avail upon request. SIG pistols pretty much ruled at the end of the revolver era and many agencies were very anti Glock in the beginning, including the FBI at the time. And that HCM dude is pretty smart when it comes to politics and why that report isn’t widely available. We have all seen different administrations make a 180 due to politics and often just on whims by people with influence.

I will say that the rise in striker popularity also coincides with an increase in remains in law enforcement. I do believe that a lack of hand strength makes it easier to reach a basic level of “qualification” with a striker over a TDA.

We can say training matters, and it does, but lots of places saw increases in NDs after moving to strikers. Striker fired pistols are basically and Administrator’s excuse for the need for less training cost and time. It’s pretty dang funny when you think about it.

I personally don’t think it takes anymore time to teach competence with a TDA instead of a striker. It just a difference in how training is structured and what gets incorporated into various drills. But if you lack hand strength, it’s easier for you with a striker just you can’t work a TDA if you can’t manage a 10 lb pull.

Just my opinion and experience, as someone who was involved in institutional size training for both TDA and strikers for a couple of decades.