Safety in the 1920s

[Bigguy]

I'ver got a question about safety in the 1920s this quote from another thread may be my answer.


ACP230: Gun safety as we know it is a fairly recent invention, actually. ;)

But I'll ask it anyway just for clarification.
I was watching a documentary about prohibition a few days ago. In a recreated scene there as a guy holding a holding a tommy gun with his finger extended above the trigger guard. Somehow that just took me out of the moment.
I think somebody posted a 1940s military training video for the .45 acp. That instructor was constantly pointing the barrel at students while his finger was on the trigger of a loaded weapon.
I'm just curious about what the timeline is on firearm safety. When did gun safety "as we know it'" start? And who is most associated with its beginning?

[TCinVA]

A lot of the old school exhibition shooters did stuff that you won't see repeated these days.

[Chuck Haggard]

In police work there were still people teaching finger on the trigger to be REALLY ready into the late 1980s

[Alpha Sierra]

Cop holsters used to look like this well into the 70s, maybe as late as the early 80s.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-WZWPr0vHyd4/UViR1JDt0gI/AAAAAAAAAgo/ZuJvuHBQQ7g/s512/03%2520%252031%2520%2520%2520%2520%2520holsters%25 20007.jpg

Bill Jordan categorically stated in his book No Second Place Winner that your finger went into the trigger guard as part of acquiring your firing hand grip.

Guess who designed the holster in the picture?

[LSP972]

Cop holsters used to look like this well into the 70s, maybe as late as the early 80s.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-WZWPr0vHyd4/UViR1JDt0gI/AAAAAAAAAgo/ZuJvuHBQQ7g/s512/03%2520%252031%2520%2520%2520%2520%2520holsters%25 20007.jpg




I was issued one of those in 1978. I used it in my initial LSP firearms training (because I was required to), wore it to my academy graduation exercise, then threw it in the "holster box", where it has resided since. I saw it just yesterday, in fact.

.

[GardoneVT]

I think somebody posted a 1940s military training video for the .45 acp. That instructor was constantly pointing the barrel at students while his finger was on the trigger of a loaded weapon.
Dont worry,the patrons of your local gun shop display counter are keeping that tradition alive and well....:(

[Dagga Boy]

Cop holsters used to look like this well into the 70s, maybe as late as the early 80s.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-WZWPr0vHyd4/UViR1JDt0gI/AAAAAAAAAgo/ZuJvuHBQQ7g/s512/03%2520%252031%2520%2520%2520%2520%2520holsters%25 20007.jpg

Bill Jordan categorically stated in his book No Second Place Winner that your finger went into the trigger guard as part of acquiring your firing hand grip.

Guess who designed the holster in the picture?

The same guy who killed fellow BP Agent John Rector with a negligent discharge.
The "I'm the only one professional enough to carry this gun" is as old as guns. The use of safe gun-handling as a measure of competence is fairly new, still confined to a small segment, and for every stride forward, YouTube takes us three back.

[okie john]

In police work there were still people teaching finger on the trigger to be REALLY ready into the late 1980s

When I was a kid going through NRA training in the 60's and early 70's, they taught 15 or 20 safety rules, many specific to range and hunting scenarios. I went to several NRA safety and marksmanship courses and I don't remember them teaching the same rules at each course. It was hard to keep that many rules straight, and I don't remember Rule 3 (Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target) being one of them.

Some time after that, I remember Jeff Cooper writing about the Four Universal Safety Rules in Guns & Ammo magazine. The Four got rid of the situation-specific rules but kept the ideas behind them, stated them all in much clearer and more forceful language, and made them easier to remember. I'm pretty sure that he got the NRA behind them, possibly when he served on the NRA Board of Directors. I can't find the dates for when Cooper served, but I believe that it was after he founded Gunsite in 1976, so call it late 70's or early-to-mid 80s.

Gunsite students took the Four with them when they left, and they began to spread. Most of the people who went on to establish their own shooting schools in the 80s had trained at Gunsite or worked for Cooper as Gunsite instructors, so they spread the Four to another generation of shooters.


Okie John

[Tamara]

When I was a kid going through NRA training in the 60's and early 70's, they taught 15 or 20 safety rules, many specific to range and hunting scenarios.

1) Never climb a fence with a loaded shotgun.
2) Never spill your Tom Collins on your Perazzi.
3) Never ever load a gun unless you are about to shoot a deer.

I think that was them.

[Totem Polar]

In police work there were still people teaching finger on the trigger to be REALLY ready into the late 1980s

This idea applied to taking people at gunpoint with DA revolvers into at least the mid-90s. I'm pretty sure it was the overwhelming market penetration of any number from 17-42 preceded by the capital letter 'G' that finally ended this line of reasoning, but I don't know for sure.

[okie john]

1) Never climb a fence with a loaded shotgun.
2) Never spill your Tom Collins on your Perazzi.
3) Never ever load a gun unless you are about to shoot a deer.

I think that was them.

Not far off.


Okie John

[Chuck Haggard]

Cop holsters used to look like this well into the 70s, maybe as late as the early 80s.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-WZWPr0vHyd4/UViR1JDt0gI/AAAAAAAAAgo/ZuJvuHBQQ7g/s512/03%2520%252031%2520%2520%2520%2520%2520holsters%25 20007.jpg

Bill Jordan categorically stated in his book No Second Place Winner that your finger went into the trigger guard as part of acquiring your firing hand grip.

Guess who designed the holster in the picture?

I was issued a Jordan holster in 1987, and dump boxes as well, we still had guys wearing those POSs into the 1990s until we got the whole department into S&W 5906s. I never carried that holster a single day at work.

[LSP552]

I was issued one of those in 1978. I used it in my initial LSP firearms training (because I was required to), wore it to my academy graduation exercise, then threw it in the "holster box", where it has resided since. I saw it just yesterday, in fact.

.

Did exactly the same……only I don't have a clue when it left the box for the can. You should wear it to retiree quals this year, along with the dump pouches.

[Chuck Haggard]

I sold mine as a collectors item to a guy wanting to make a retro cop rig, the dump boxes went with the holster

[Wondering Beard]

The same guy who killed fellow BP Agent John Rector with a negligent discharge.
The "I'm the only one professional enough to carry this gun" is as old as guns. The use of safe gun-handling as a measure of competence is fairly new, still confined to a small segment, and for every stride forward, YouTube takes us three back.

Can you tell us a bit more about that or point us towards where we could find out more? I had never heard of this.

[HCM]

Not too long though, someone on here said something along the lines of "the four rules were Jeff Cooper's greatest contribution to the firearms community / firearms training" . It's not an exact quote, but I agree wholeheartedly with the concept.

[Gadfly]

Bill Jordan was a major public figure and PR guy for the Border Patrol. He had a great influence on equipment selection, training and policy. The rumor has been around for a long time and I heard it for years as an INS Agent working with many BP agents. I can't swear its true because I was not there. The link below is RUMORED to be the incident. The government and the BP does not like to have bad PR, or to air dirty laundry, especially in the days before the internet and social media made it much easier to cover up. This is the RUMOR, so take it for what it is worth. I can not find a source to publicly verify. I have no clue if it is true.

In todays environment you would be thrown to the media wolves by management. In 1956, a decorated war hero with plenty of friends in high places and plenty of good PR for the agency could possibly have his sins washed away by management....

http://www.odmp.org/officer/11072-patrol-agent-john-a.-rector

==========
The Officer Down Memorial Page remembers...

Patrol Agent John A. Rector
United States Department of Justice - Border Patrol, US
End of Watch: Tuesday, October 16, 1956


United States Department of Justice - Border Patrol

Biographical Info
Age: 58
Tour of Duty: 28 yr
Badge Number: Not available

Incident Details
Cause of Death: Gunfire (Accidental)
Date of Incident: Tuesday, October 16, 1956
State of Incident: California
Weapon Used: Officer's handgun
Suspect Info: Not available
Agent Rector was accidentally shot and killed by a fellow agent (Bill Jordan) who was discussing gun limitations with a third agent at the Chula Vista Sector Headquarters in California. The two agents had unloaded the .357 caliber handgun while examining it, reloaded it, and placed it in a drawer as they began to discuss a different weapon. The discussion returned to the .357 and one of the agents(Bill Jordan) removed it from the drawer, not realizing it had been reloaded. When he pulled the trigger the gun discharged and round passed through the wall and struck Agent Rector in the head as he sat at his desk. He was transported to a local hospital where he succumbed to the wound several hours later.

Agent Rector had been with the agency for 28 years.

[Chuck Haggard]

^That^ is the story that I was told years ago. I was told by guys that knew Bill that he never was the same guy afterwards.

[LSP972]

Did exactly the same……only I don't have a clue when it left the box for the can. You should wear it to retiree quals this year, along with the dump pouches.

Fret not, there will be a few there. John White will be wearing his, for sure.

I seem to have lost the dump pouches somewhere along the way; cannot remember the last time I saw them. I might have given it to James; back when he was on his retro-revolver kick, I sent him one of my Martin duty holsters, my six loop top-off slider, and a few other things.

BTW, just heard that the date this year is 24 MAR. They want us to call Hillary at the LSTA and "sign up"; probably to get an idea of how much chow to provide.

.

[Alpha Sierra]

Just out of curiosity, what sucks so bad about the Jordan holster?

Seems like a pretty basic rig.

[Wondering Beard]

Thanks Gadfly

[Byron]

Just out of curiosity, what sucks so bad about the Jordan holster?

Seems like a pretty basic rig.

The trigger is completely exposed while the handgun is fully seated in the holster.


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[Chuck Haggard]

Just out of curiosity, what sucks so bad about the Jordan holster?

Seems like a pretty basic rig.

Trigger is completely exposed, strap to retain the gun is weak and doesn't resist a gun grab at all. Same strap, due to Murphy, will fail to unsnap in a timely manner and leave the copper wearing the rig tugging on the gun when they need it.

Without the strap the holster is a gun bucket with zero retention.

In the 1970s we had two officers shot by a bad guy with a snatched gun, they almost died from their wounds. And almost every single foot chase we had back then resulted in a search party to go find someone's model 66 that was laying in the weeds somewhere.

[HCM]

Just out of curiosity, what sucks so bad about the Jordan holster?

Seems like a pretty basic rig.

Primarily, the suicide strap and poor retention. They had a snap on the back so the strap could be snapped out of the way when the officer was "expecting trouble and wanted a fast draw". Without the strap there is zero retention as the holster isnt really molded inside.

If I know trouble is coming I should have my Remington Model 11 12 gauage or Winchester 1907 .351 in hand :cool:

The exposed trigger guard was popular back then and might be OK on a general purpose or outdoorsmans revolver holster but it's not what I would want in an LE holster I might be weaing when I'm mixing it up with someone in a FUT.

[HCM]

For any who are interested here is the full text ofBill Jordan's "No Second Place Winner"

https://archive.org/stream/No_Second_Place_Winner_Bill_Jordan/No_Second_Place_Winner_Bill_Jordan_djvu.txt

[Dagga Boy]

^That^ is the story that I was told years ago. I was told by guys that knew Bill that he never was the same guy afterwards.

He was rightly devastated. As Wayne and I discuss in our safety lecture, ND's will have more than one victim. Rector's son posted on another forum about the incident. He indicated that Bill Jordon had a hard time with the incident and personally apologized to the family as he was friends with the victim.

Fact-Many folks don't take the Modern Technique Safety rules seriously. It is sad because it is a simple system with several fail safes to prevent a tragedy. Many of the worst offenders are those who consider themselves to be gun experts due to time around them. TV and movies tend to be the safety trainers for the country, and we are not better for it.

[Dagga Boy]

Correct my above post....it was Rector's daughter who posted on the Smith Forum. Dang getting old memory stuff...:(