A Master List of Vetted Models?

[GardoneVT]

Is it possible to produce a community-generated list of sanctioned firearms ?

I ask as its quite clear there's two broad categories of modern handguns-weapons produced to sell , and weapons designed for serious use too.

The latter is much smaller in number then the former.It would be preferable to direct newbies to a master list of good brands and models so as to prevent " Derp Collection Syndrome".

[bkpker]

This is a great idea. Not sure what parameters one would use to evaluate the pistols. There are lots of factors that make a good "serious use" pistol. Reliability could possibly be covered by a statistically significant number of a given model pistol passing the 2000 round challenge, but other factors such as conceal ability (if applicable), ergonomics, availability of replacement parts, ease of maintenance, availability of holsters, long term durability and accuracy should probably also be considered.

[DocGKR]

As I noted in another recent thread, I could care less about what handguns individuals choose to own, carry and use--particularly those end users with enough experience to understand the ramifications of what they are selecting, why they are doing so, and have made wise assessments of the criteria they deem valuable for their needs.

From an organizational standpoint, what is PRACTICAL are those handguns which have proven to be durable, reliable, easily serviced, have plentiful armorer support, good parts and accessories availability, readily acquired holsters, and solid vendor CS. At this time in the US, that basically that boils down to Glock and S&W M&P, with perhaps an outside nod to HK and a far distant "maybe" for Beretta and Sig. Note that pistols that I would have once recommended, like the Hi Power, 3rd gen S&W, classic Sig, would no longer be optimal choices

New CONUS pistol users would be well served by selecting a such a "practical" handgun.

There are many other handguns that may work adequately, but they can be harder to service, lack armorer support, are difficult to source parts and accessories for, and the manufacturers may not offer adequate support. At one time I would have suggested a 3rd gen S&W or classic Sig.

The best caliber for the majority of users in urban and suburban settings is 9 mm. If a person spends a lot of time around vehicles or in wilderness areas with larger animals present, a .40 S&W might be reasonable. .45 Auto makes the most sense in states with idiotic 10 rd or less magazine restrictions, in departments that give away lots of free .45 Auto ammo, or in situations where modern expanding ammunition is restricted due to asinine, illogical regulations.

[RJ]

This thread would be an awesome sticky from this noob's perspective.

[Jared]

Is it possible to produce a community-generated list of sanctioned firearms ?

I ask as its quite clear there's two broad categories of modern handguns-weapons produced to sell , and weapons designed for serious use too.

The latter is much smaller in number then the former.It would be preferable to direct newbies to a master list of good brands and models so as to prevent " Derp Collection Syndrome".

Dude, you aren't gonna end gun derp. It's just never gonna happen. Tam has a thread here that pretty much says that derp has always been with us. I'll submit that it always will be.

But say that you managed to create a list or a "Chart" of handgun models that had desirable features and QC/reliability specs, it would not evangelize the web and all of a sudden cause everyone to say, "Gee, that Hi-Point was a terrible idea, I need to drop the coin on this HK." What you would get would be a bunch of guys that bought their POS getting all butt hurt, defending their purchase to all that would listen, and bitching about the "gun snobs" and "elitists" that think you have to spend a thousand dollars on a pistol or else you will be instantly slaughtered in the street. (P.S. I have seen this movie before, it involved a carbine chart.)

I'm all for people buying a quality handgun and doing their homework to become proficient with it. I used to recommend it to anyone that asked my opinion on what they should do about HD/CC. Problem is, after I'd taken the time to make my case and give my reasons, they all did the exact same thing. They went out and bought exactly what they had already planned on buying, bought one box of ball, shot that box of ball, bought a box of WWB hollowpoints, loaded it up, and forgot about it. I gave up. I do what I do now for me and me alone, and I longer spend a spare second thinking about how other folks spend their time and money. Trust me, it's easier.

[GardoneVT]

Dude, you aren't gonna end gun derp. It's just never gonna happen. Tam has a thread here that pretty much says that derp has always been with us. I'll submit that it always will be.



The point wouldn't be to end derp-its to prevent otherwise well intentioned newbies from being sold a bill of goods at the gun counter.

[jkb4c]

The point wouldn't be to end derp-its to prevent otherwise well intentioned newbies from being sold a bill of goods at the gun counter.

I think this is a great idea, especially if approached from the viewpoint of the individual rather than an LE department. There could be pistols that "make the grade" for individual use that are obviously not the best choice for an organization - i.e. Springfield TRP, etc.

This may end up being a fairly common-sense list for most of us, but it certainly could be invaluable for new shooters.

[dbm]

Not worth the effort.

[HopetonBrown]

My first gun ever bought 10 years ago was a TRP. Last gun bought 3 months ago was a G34. I'm not too bright but buying a non derp gun is easy without a "master list". And I think people make too big a deal about which gun.

From my Motorola StarTAC.

[rob_s]

Glock 19
[/list]

[Jared]

The point wouldn't be to end derp-its to prevent otherwise well intentioned newbies from being sold a bill of goods at the gun counter.

There's a whole lot of holes in your thinking. First, people don't just get bad ideas in the gun shops. They get a lot of them on the internet. They get more from gun magazines. They get more from their "gun expert" buddy. One list, on one forum, it's not gonna make a dent.

Every time I've ever been aske "What should I buy?" the asker already had an idea of what they wanted. They never listened to any advice I gave. I still answer when asked, but I always just assume that they ain't gonna listen. Now, maybe I'm the problem. Maybe I'm just a moron that can't articulate the point. But I think that people just don't wanna take advice. They want their choices validated.

Case in point: When you got ready to do the Tanfo thing, you started a thread on this very forum asking if EAA's support was really that bad. People told you it was. You went ahead and did the Tanfo thing. You learned the hard way. Example #2: In spite of the very commonly given advice, that is agreed on by almost all the credible experts, to pick a gun and stick with it, you've changed carry guns numerous times in the 18 months since you've joined this forum. So if you yourself won't listen to good advice given by knowledgeable folks on this forum, what makes you think that a total noob, who has no idea how to vet good advice from bad is gonna take it?

Back to my personal experience, most people that are getting into guns that I meet seem to, for lack of a better term, "pick a sensei." From there, what that sensei says is final. They'll seek other opinions, but only in the interest of affirming what they've come to believe from their chosen #1 source. Sometimes, something happens to break them out of it, but they almost always have to learn the hard way, like you did with EAA. The vast majority of the time though, they just don't shoot enough to find out where they've been led wrong.

I realize that you, from your own posts, wasted good money on some real turds. I also understand that you want to save others from that, but I still firmly believe that people just have to go through the process their own way. And most, in spite of any list, chart, or expert, will never realize where they have gone wrong.

[GardoneVT]

There's a whole lot of holes in your thinking. First, people don't just get bad ideas in the gun shops. They get a lot of them on the internet. They get more from gun magazines. They get more from their "gun expert" buddy. One list, on one forum, it's not gonna make a dent.

Every time I've ever been aske "What should I buy?" the asker already had an idea of what they wanted. They never listened to any advice I gave. I still answer when asked, but I always just assume that they ain't gonna listen. Now, maybe I'm the problem. Maybe I'm just a moron that can't articulate the point. But I think that people just don't wanna take advice. They want their choices validated.

Case in point: When you got ready to do the Tanfo thing, you started a thread on this very forum asking if EAA's support was really that bad. People told you it was. You went ahead and did the Tanfo thing. You learned the hard way. Example #2: In spite of the very commonly given advice, that is agreed on by almost all the credible experts, to pick a gun and stick with it, you've changed carry guns numerous times in the 18 months since you've joined this forum. So if you yourself won't listen to good advice given by knowledgeable folks on this forum, what makes you think that a total noob, who has no idea how to vet good advice from bad is gonna take it?

Back to my personal experience, most people that are getting into guns that I meet seem to, for lack of a better term, "pick a sensei." From there, what that sensei says is final. They'll seek other opinions, but only in the interest of affirming what they've come to believe from their chosen #1 source. Sometimes, something happens to break them out of it, but they almost always have to learn the hard way, like you did with EAA. The vast majority of the time though, they just don't shoot enough to find out where they've been led wrong.

I realize that you, from your own posts, wasted good money on some real turds. I also understand that you want to save others from that, but I still firmly believe that people just have to go through the process their own way. And most, in spite of any list, chart, or expert, will never realize where they have gone wrong.

I disagree.Not everyone is a slave to consumerism.

The EAA project was a failure. Not because the guns were total junk-to wit, I also owned vetted carry guns thorough the process ,given the checkered history of Tanfoglio . It became clear EAAs total inability to back their own import made further ownership pointless for my circumstances.

Again-my goal is a resource we can easily point to for people interested in a no-BS list of quality products.What harm could it do?

[fixer]

This is a great idea. Not sure what parameters one would use to evaluate the pistols. There are lots of factors that make a good "serious use" pistol. Reliability could possibly be covered by a statistically significant number of a given model pistol passing the 2000 round challenge, but other factors such as conceal ability (if applicable), ergonomics, availability of replacement parts, ease of maintenance, availability of holsters, long term durability and accuracy should probably also be considered.

This is good starting point right here. Define the criteria for this first. I'll also add that putting availability and cost of accessories is a great idea.

[Hambo]

I'm with Jared. People want affirmation, not information. I just went through all of this with a friend. I steered him to good information and he searched out affirming reviews for his choices. Then he made an impulse buy of a pistol he hadn't even considered because it was on sale cheap. Because I'm either a hopeless optimist or the village idiot, I ignored past experience with other friends and acquaintances.

The only list I want right now is a list of meetings for Gun Advisers Anonymous.

[1slow]

I'm with Jared. People want affirmation, not information. I just went through all of this with a friend. I steered him to good information and he searched out affirming reviews for his choices. Then he made an impulse buy of a pistol he hadn't even considered because it was on sale cheap. Because I'm either a hopeless optimist or the village idiot, I ignored past experience with other friends and acquaintances.

The only list I want right now is a list of meetings for Gun Advisers Anonymous.

BTDT, threw away the T shirt don't want to remember !

[Jared]

I disagree.Not everyone is a slave to consumerism.

The EAA project was a failure. Not because the guns were total junk-to wit, I also owned vetted carry guns thorough the process ,given the checkered history of Tanfoglio . It became clear EAAs total inability to back their own import made further ownership pointless for my circumstances.

Again-my goal is a resource we can easily point to for people interested in a no-BS list of quality products.What harm could it do?

Harm? Well, as far as physical harm, none. But as far as really doing any good, none. The people that are truly interested in buying the best, or at least good enough have so many resources out there for that information that it wouldn't add anything. The people that just want what's on sale or what is cheap are gonna buy entirely based on price regardless. And then, there's the people that just are not gonna listen, no matter what. I just can't help but think it's a waste of time, and besides that, DocGKR has a good write up on it in his service ammunition sticky in the ammunition subforum.

And just to add, this was done before with a carbine chart. I honestly have always believed that when Rob_S created that chart, he meant well and had good intentions. But the way people took it, well, I just don't think most folks used it the way he intended at all.

Say, for example that you got your pistol chart made. Would the Beretta 92FS make the list? If so, would the Taurus version? I'd wager that if the Beretta did, and the Taurus didn't, you'd get a ton of butt hurt Taurus fanboys screaming at the top of their lungs that the list was just made by a bunch of "elitists" that were looking for an excuse to talk down to people and make themselves feel better about spending too much for the same gun. Not the way I feel about it, but I'd be very comfortable wagering it would happen.

Like I said, I realize you have good intentions and wanna help folks make good choices. And I myself was quite passionate about this 6 or 7 years ago. I got jaded. People do not listen. I gave up. If you can stick it out and not wind up burned out on it like me in 6 or 7 years, you're a better man than I am.

[Casual Friday]

Here's the list.

Buy a Glock, they're probably ok
Buy a S&W, they're probably ok
Buy a SIG, they're probably ok
Buy an HK, they're probably ok
Buy a CZ, they're probably ok
Buy a Walther, they're probably ok
Buy a Beretta, they're probably ok

[45dotACP]

Here's the list.

Buy a Glock, they're probably ok
Buy a S&W, they're probably ok
Buy a SIG, they're probably ok
Buy an HK, they're probably ok
Buy a CZ, they're probably ok
Buy a Walther, they're probably ok
Buy a Beretta, they're probably ok
/Thread

No reason to debate the rationale of Gardone's intentions. Just throw out some names of companies that make decent stuff.

[DocGKR]

Can end-users easily get parts for their CZ, Walther, XD, etc... and find a local armorer to service them?

If not, then they are probably NOT the best option for new shooters and less experienced folks who are not well versed in caring for weapons.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Gun Advisers Anonymous.

I think they recommend believing in a Higher Power (so is that a Browning or High Point?). Sorry.

Most folks will never see such a list. The cognitive research (that economists until recently have ignored - as I pointed out before) demonstrates that folks go off emotion, vivid instances and some guru authority. Look at the measles outbreak for the vaccine deniers.

The best bet is quality instruction and a quality 9 mm. For the latter - a G19 or a M&P. A SW or Ruger 38 SPL revolver for the nightstand of the untrained and uninterested in our ninja world.

I cannot get 'gun guys' to take a decent course but they proclaim their gun status as they shoot ar rocks at the 'ranch'.

[olstyn]

Here's the list.

Buy a Glock, they're probably ok
Buy a S&W, they're probably ok
Buy a SIG, they're probably ok
Buy an HK, they're probably ok
Buy a CZ, they're probably ok
Buy a Walther, they're probably ok
Buy a Beretta, they're probably ok

That sounds about right; the only caveat I'd add is that for the last 4 names in that list, spare parts, mags, and holsters are pretty much a mail-order thing, so it pays to buy extra stuff before you need it. The first three you can probably buy the part and get it fixed same day if it breaks. That's not a knock on the "tier 1.5" guns listed in terms of usability, durability, etc; it's just a concern that potential owners need to be aware of coming from someone who has been there. (I broke the recoil spring assembly in a Walther and it took several weeks for a replacement to arrive; now I keep a spare on hand.)

[Beat Trash]

I see a lot of individuals wanting to be different, and wanting something different as it relates to equipment. That in and of itself isn't such a bad thing.

But I see some people who think that a change or perceived "upgrade" in the quality of their pistol will make up for a lack of skill, training and proficiency of the shooter. The guy who thinks that trading his Glock 17 for an HK P30 or a custom 1911 will instantly make him a better shooter.

If many recommend a Glock 34 for competing at the local matches, and many who carry defensive pistols are recommending the Glock 19, well... in Law Enforcement, we refer to that as "A Clue".

If charged with the decision making process for an agency, there are many factors that come into play. DocGKR outlined many of those factors in his first post. But from an individual standpoint, many of those factors such as ease of obtaining parts and armors support are something that an individual should also consider. Even as an individual shooter/gun owner, parts can break. Springs will wear with use and should be replaced at regular intervals. If you have an issue, how hard is it to get support for your gun in the filed or through the manufacture.

The availability of support gear such as spare magazines and holsters needs to be factored in also.

For a newer shooter, my list would be a Glock 17/19 and a M&P9. I would strongly suggest the individual shoot both first. I own and am fond of the HK VP9. But finding in-stock magazines can be an issue. And I would only recommend the VP9 with the understanding that spare parts and armors support may be an issue.

[GardoneVT]

That sounds about right; the only caveat I'd add is that for the last 4 names in that list, spare parts, mags, and holsters are pretty much a mail-order thing, so it pays to buy extra stuff before you need it. The first three you can probably buy the part and get it fixed same day if it breaks. That's not a knock on the "tier 1.5" guns listed in terms of usability, durability, etc; it's just a concern that potential owners need to be aware of coming from someone who has been there. (I broke the recoil spring assembly in a Walther and it took several weeks for a replacement to arrive; now I keep a spare on hand.)

Beretta 92 and PX4 magazines aren't hard to get.

[DocGKR]

Beat Trash: Well said and fully concur.

[Tamara]

Hambo and Jared are spot-on.

The majority of people turn to the internet, not for advice on what things to buy, but for confirmation that the things they've already bought (and, by extension, they themselves) are awesome.

[Alpha Sierra]

Can end-users easily get parts for their CZ, Walther, XD, etc... and find a local armorer to service them?.
I don't know about Walther or XD but getting parts, ANY part, for any of my CZs is stupid easy. Credit card and the internet and I can have any part I need from three or four different sources including CZ USA in a few days time. I can also stock up on spares ahead of time just as easily.

Finding a local armorer to service a CZ is maybe not as easy as finding one for Glocks but they are out there. Is it critical? I don't think so for two reasons:

1. Armorer work is unskilled labor. You open a manual, remove and replace, reassemble. There may be some minor fitting required, but again, we have this thing called the internet where ALL kinds of video and text tutorials exist to completely tear down. fix, improve and reassemble a CZ 75. The 75 Omega, the P-07, and P-09 are even easier still. If I can take a CZ 75D apart, do a trigger job that reduces DA pull, reduces SA reset, and functions 100%, it can't be that hard.

2. If I run into something that I can't fix, or didn't know how to begin with, I box up the pistol and send it to Cajun Gunworks, Automatic Accuracy, CZ Custom, or CZ USA and it gets fixed and delivered back to me. In the meantime I have other handguns that I can carry and use.

3. How often do modern, quality handguns break something? I don't have the round counts that some here do, but the last two pistols that I purchased (both CZs) one got 1700 rounds through it and the other 2800 from late July to late December without a single issue. One of them also gets the crap dry fired out of it each week as it is my main USPSA pistol. I call that a fair shakedown and they run fine.

So no, armorer availability is nowhere near as important as some people make it out to be.

[Savage Hands]

More random thoughts by GardoneVT, maybe you should start a blog.

[Jared]

More random thoughts by GardoneVT, maybe you should start a blog.

Actually, he probably should. I'd probably read it, and it'd probably be interesting to see how he changed over time.

[MichaelD]

Is it possible to produce a community-generated list of sanctioned firearms ?

I ask as its quite clear there's two broad categories of modern handguns-weapons produced to sell , and weapons designed for serious use too.

The latter is much smaller in number then the former.It would be preferable to direct newbies to a master list of good brands and models so as to prevent " Derp Collection Syndrome".

Funny enough, this is what I was trying to do with my "First pistol recommendation list" thread from last month.

[oldtexan]

I don't know about Walther or XD but getting parts, ANY part, for any of my CZs is stupid easy. Credit card and the internet and I can have any part I need from three or four different sources including CZ USA in a few days time. I can also stock up on spares ahead of time just as easily.

Finding a local armorer to service a CZ is maybe not as easy as finding one for Glocks but they are out there. Is it critical? I don't think so for two reasons:

1. Armorer work is unskilled labor. You open a manual, remove and replace, reassemble. There may be some minor fitting required, but again, we have this thing called the internet where ALL kinds of video and text tutorials exist to completely tear down. fix, improve and reassemble a CZ 75. The 75 Omega, the P-07, and P-09 are even easier still. If I can take a CZ 75D apart, do a trigger job that reduces DA pull, reduces SA reset, and functions 100%, it can't be that hard.

2. If I run into something that I can't fix, or didn't know how to begin with, I box up the pistol and send it to Cajun Gunworks, Automatic Accuracy, CZ Custom, or CZ USA and it gets fixed and delivered back to me. In the meantime I have other handguns that I can carry and use.

3. How often do modern, quality handguns break something? I don't have the round counts that some here do, but the last two pistols that I purchased (both CZs) one got 1700 rounds through it and the other 2800 from late July to late December without a single issue. One of them also gets the crap dry fired out of it each week as it is my main USPSA pistol. I call that a fair shakedown and they run fine.

So no, armorer availability is nowhere near as important as some people make it out to be.

Building a chart as recommended by the OP will be a tremendously complicated, labor-intensive endeavor of questionable real value. As Alpha Sierra's post shows, you'll get arguments over which criteria should be included and the relative importance of the various criteria. You'll get arguments over how to quantify factors such as holster availabliity, parts availability, etc.

You'll get arguments over which categories of handguns to include. Do we include current production recoil-operated pistols of a specified minimum height and a barrel of 3.8"-5" and exclude everything else? How about a gun with a 4" barrel, but a shorter overall height that can be lengthened to the minimum height with grip extenders? What about revolvers?

And the chart will need constant updating as new products are introduced to the market, or old ones are discontinued or modified. Each update will bring new arguments.

[Alpha Sierra]

Building a chart as recommended by the OP will be a tremendously complicated, labor-intensive endeavor of questionable real value. As Alpha Sierra's post shows, you'll get arguments over which criteria should be included and the relative importance of the various criteria. You'll get arguments over how to quantify factors such as holster availabliity, parts availability, etc.

You'll get arguments over which categories of handguns to include. Do we include current production recoil-operated pistols of a specified minimum height and a barrel of 3.8"-5" and exclude everything else? How about a gun with a 4" barrel, but a shorter overall height that can be lengthened to the minimum height with grip extenders? What about revolvers?

And the chart will need constant updating as new products are introduced to the market, or old ones are discontinued or modified. Each update will bring new arguments.
Which is precisely why I educate myself, do my own research and make my own decisions based on what matters to me. I agree, "the list" is a complete waste of time. Just like "the chart" was for AR-15s.

[GardoneVT]

It seems the thread has served its purpose.

Past experience has shown this idea won't work, and the logistics of updating it are impossible. Given that companies change parts constantly, a good gun can quickly become not-good without public notice .

And with that, we have our answer-a definitive "NOPE".

[Totem Polar]

Plus, "caveat emptor". Bus as usual.