Sage Dynamics's Active Shooter Course Feedback

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Has anyone heard much about Sage Dynamics? They're going to having an active shooter course in my area in a couple months, and the premise sounds pretty interesting, as it's a force-on-force class held within the confines of a large facility, which is something that as a civilian isn't easily found. However, the whole active shooter thing seems a bit Walter Mitty to me (especially for a shut-in like that me that shuns public areas), and I've read many times on here that force-on-force can be pretty difficult to do right (the balance between realism and just setting up players for failure), so I'm approaching this with some caution.


Here's a video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pO6CvI05CGo

[HopetonBrown]

I saw this video recently:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5AEtpVdzCs

It made me laugh. And not want to spend time and money with them.

[runcible]

That second video made me cringe in the real world.

There are ways to stack shooters in vertical alignment, to minimize the risks associated with that. They include verbals that are pretty hard to mistake in meaning, physical pressure or interlock, use of the prone position vice kneeling while the other remains standing, and requiring consent before standing. Alternatively, there is avoiding the vertical stacking of shooters in the first place.

Given that people have been shot in training and practice with poor implementation, what was presented is discomforting for me. Their verbals could be easily mistaken in meaning (status of weapon vs. vertical orientation\shooting position), I didn't see a way for the top shooter to deconflict the lower shooter rising with poor timing, I saw the lower shooter standing without visually or audibly checking the higher shooter, and... shit.

To paraphrase Howe: if you want to join the party, get on-line.

I can't think of a confined or open-space problem that would require this sort of procedure set, as presented.

[rekkr870]

So much khaki in the second video...

[Chuck Haggard]

There are ways to work a high/low stack, and those are something that needs to be worked in a team environment when stuck in a confined space, like a hallway, or holding a corner. Going to kneeling just because is, well, stupid.

That these trainers are trying to teach more advanced team tactics while allowing students to display poor draw, grip, etc on the posted video tells me that they seem to be selling tactical entertainment over useful and safe TTPs.

[Alpha Sierra]

Those two guys are tactical caricatures. What they offer, from the POV of a citizen who minds his own business, is a waste of my money.

[Cecil Burch]

I don't know enough to comment on whether their active shooter course is worthwhile. What I can comment on is that any trainer that advocates the sheer wrongness of this:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lbZiEEwry34

Is not someone I would trust in any other area. I think he lacks major critical thinking skills, or has an ego that makes him think he is wonderful in all areas.

[LittleLebowski]

No. Train with Cecil or SouthNarc.

[BaiHu]

I don't know enough to comment on whether their active shooter course is worthwhile. What I can comment on is that any trainer that advocates the sheer wrongness of this:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lbZiEEwry34

Is not someone I would trust in any other area. I think he lacks major critical thinking skills, or has an ego that makes him think he is wonderful in all areas.
Wow! What is it with people's thoughts that if you believe a guy is willing to grab your gun and kill you with it, then why would he be unwilling to use his other hand? I believe I get the poor technique side of it from taking ECQC regarding the "securing" of the gun grab wrist, but then the rest of it just became unwatchable after 5 minutes. I still watched until the 7 minute mark.

A few comments:

1) I don't need to go 80% or higher to see if this doesn't work.
2) holy compliant partner Batman.
3) some lack of awareness/reality as to how hard it will be to get the magic "lock" response on the gun grab wrist.
4) a lack of body mechanic understanding that once you pull the attacker's arm straight as he subscribes, his knee will bend making his shin/knee "attack" near pointless.

So, yeah I'm guessing this is paint by numbers with no master artist creating a quality curriculum.

[SouthNarc]

I don't know enough to comment on whether their active shooter course is worthwhile. What I can comment on is that any trainer that advocates the sheer wrongness of this:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lbZiEEwry34

Is not someone I would trust in any other area. I think he lacks major critical thinking skills, or has an ego that makes him think he is wonderful in all areas.



I wouldn't go that far. Their work in other areas may be sound but as with most guys that offer an "ECQ" course as an "addition" to everything else they do, they simply have not gone as deep into that field as we have. A good example of that is Strategos: Pretty much THE standard on low light but the PCR leaves one scratching their head. I'm sure Chuck would concur.

I wish people would just pick ONE THING to be good at and be happy with that.

[HeadHunter]

I sent in a registration for the Low Light CCW Operator's course (http://www.sagedynamics.org/#!/sitepage_33) but haven't received any reply yet. I hope he lets me register; it's hard to get low light time on the range.


http://youtu.be/IyrdJKjT23s

[HopetonBrown]

A no prerequisites class for the "novice" shooter will drive most P-F members nuts. I made this mistake last year with a basic no/low light class.


I sent in a registration for the Low Light CCW Operator's course (http://www.sagedynamics.org/#!/sitepage_33) but haven't received any reply yet. I hope he lets me register; it's hard to get low light time on the range.

[Chuck Haggard]

I sent in a registration for the Low Light CCW Operator's course (http://www.sagedynamics.org/#!/sitepage_33) but haven't received any reply yet. I hope he lets me register; it's hard to get low light time on the range.


Claude, you make it up my way and I'll get you all the low light range time you want.

[Lomshek]

I sent in a registration for the Low Light CCW Operator's course (http://www.sagedynamics.org/#!/sitepage_33) but haven't received any reply yet. I hope he lets me register; it's hard to get low light time on the range.


http://youtu.be/IyrdJKjT23s

When you absolutely positively want to maximize your chances of a shot student or instructor go Sage Dynamics. :p

I especially like the instructor yelling orders from 20+ feet away while running a video camera in the dark. Way to maintain control over your student. If that's not enough they run a full line just like daylight and yell at students to advance or "get distance" with their lights off so no one has any idea where muzzles are pointed or who's in front or behind the "line".

I know, I know, train like you fight and big boy rules trump safety concerns and you don't want training scars like wimps worried about safety.

[Irelander]

I enjoy Aaron Cowan's writings on Monderno and elsewhere. I wouldn't hesitate to take a class from him.

[BaiHu]

When you absolutely positively want to maximize your chances of a shot student or instructor go Sage Dynamics. [emoji14]

I especially like the instructor yelling orders from 20+ feet away while running a video camera in the dark. Way to maintain control over your student. If that's not enough they run a full line just like daylight and yell at students to advance or "get distance" with their lights off so no one has any idea where muzzles are pointed or who's in front or behind the "line".

I know, I know, train like you fight and big boy rules trump safety concerns and you don't want training scars like wimps worried about safety.

I was pretending there was an instructor that had night vision on the whole time in order to ease my anxiety.

[Chuck Haggard]

When you absolutely positively want to maximize your chances of a shot student or instructor go Sage Dynamics. :p

I especially like the instructor yelling orders from 20+ feet away while running a video camera in the dark. Way to maintain control over your student. If that's not enough they run a full line just like daylight and yell at students to advance or "get distance" with their lights off so no one has any idea where muzzles are pointed or who's in front or behind the "line".

I know, I know, train like you fight and big boy rules trump safety concerns and you don't want training scars like wimps worried about safety.

Who fights on line in the dark with a bunch of other guys?

Seriously, that is the opposite of "fight like you train".

[HeadHunter]

I received my registration confirmation, so I'm in. I am excited.

[Irelander]

When you absolutely positively want to maximize your chances of a shot student or instructor go Sage Dynamics. :p

I especially like the instructor yelling orders from 20+ feet away while running a video camera in the dark. Way to maintain control over your student. If that's not enough they run a full line just like daylight and yell at students to advance or "get distance" with their lights off so no one has any idea where muzzles are pointed or who's in front or behind the "line".

I know, I know, train like you fight and big boy rules trump safety concerns and you don't want training scars like wimps worried about safety.

I'm not sure that 3 students constitutes a full line. Looks like each student was wearing a light stick stuck in the back of their belt so the instructor could keep track of where they were when the lights were out. His camera could have been mounted to his chest or head so that he could concentrate on the students and not the camera.

[BaiHu]

I'm not sure that 3 students constitutes a full line. Looks like each student was wearing a light stick stuck in the back of their belt so the instructor could keep track of where they were when the lights were out. His camera could have been mounted to his chest or head so that he could concentrate on the students and not the camera.
Good points and devil's advocate could say these are all his hand picked trained/vetted guys for the purpose of this video. It's pretty bad when I feel like I need to smack my own hand over my poor internet protocol [emoji16]

[Lomshek]

Who fights on line in the dark with a bunch of other guys?

Seriously, that is the opposite of "fight like you train".

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/483/894/463.jpg
:cool: