How does one draw from AIWB?

[kobudo]

I was wondering mainly about any variations in how members here draw from AIWB and what specific technique they use? I am particularly curious how folks here first acquire a fighting grip on the gun. I've seen different people appear to use different methods and have experimented with various methods myself. I have seen people thumbcap the back of the slide and then put their thumb behind the slide as soon as they begin to clear leather/kydex and also seen people who put their thumb behind the slide and seem to get the web of their hand deep in the tang before they begin drawing. After much trial and error, I like thumbcapping the back of the slide at first a little more but find it doesn't seem to jive so well for me when drawing something like a 1911 with a beavertail grip as opposed to a striker fired gun such as a Glock. Thanks everyone.

[DocGKR]

I grab the pistol with my right hand and pull it out of the holster, pretty much the same as with every other holster...

[joshs]

I get my thumb between the grip and my body in approximately the same place it would be shooting SHO. I only flag my thumb up higher on a pistol with a thumb safety. The only time I thumbcap the slide is when holstering to block the hammer/Gadget. I want my grip to be a strong as possible before the pistol starts moving, so I've never considered putting my thumb on the back of the slide when drawing.

[ken grant]

I grab the pistol with my right hand and pull it out of the holster, pretty much the same as with every other holster...

ME TOO !!!!!

[23JAZ]

I was wondering mainly about any variations in how members here draw from AIWB and what specific technique they use? I am particularly curious how folks here first acquire a fighting grip on the gun. I've seen different people appear to use different methods and have experimented with various methods myself. I have seen people thumbcap the back of the slide and then put their thumb behind the slide as soon as they begin to clear leather/kydex and also seen people who put their thumb behind the slide and seem to get the web of their hand deep in the tang before they begin drawing. After much trial and error, I like thumbcapping the back of the slide at first a little more but find it doesn't seem to jive so well for me when drawing something like a 1911 with a beavertail grip as opposed to a striker fired gun such as a Glock. Thanks everyone.

FAST!
clear cover, master grip, aim/point, shoot. Repeat.

[45dotACP]

I was wondering mainly about any variations in how members here draw from AIWB and what specific technique they use? I am particularly curious how folks here first acquire a fighting grip on the gun. I've seen different people appear to use different methods and have experimented with various methods myself. I have seen people thumbcap the back of the slide and then put their thumb behind the slide as soon as they begin to clear leather/kydex and also seen people who put their thumb behind the slide and seem to get the web of their hand deep in the tang before they begin drawing. After much trial and error, I like thumbcapping the back of the slide at first a little more but find it doesn't seem to jive so well for me when drawing something like a 1911 with a beavertail grip as opposed to a striker fired gun such as a Glock. Thanks everyone.

Not really much of a thumbcapper guy. I have to flick off the thumb safety though, so maybe that's why? I recommend getting the grip established before you even clear leather (or kydex) because you could run the risk of throwing the gun otherwise. One of my first points of contact is my middle finger on the trigger guard...if that helps?

[YVK]

... find it doesn't seem to jive so well for me when drawing something like a 1911 with a beavertail grip as opposed to a striker fired gun such as a Glock.

There is no rule to draw different guns all in the same way. When grip my HKs, I try to get so high that my web is not under the tang, it is on the tang. Naturally, that requires some amount of thumbcapping on the initial contact, aiwb or strong side, but then I try to slide it to the side for the same reason that Josh has mentioned. With Beretta and 1911 I just get a grip, and draw.

[JDM]

From a gun retention standpoint, it is a really good idea to complete your strong hand grip before the gun leaves the holster.

[ToddG]

While basically repeating what many have said:

1A) If two hands are available, my support hand grabs the cover garment just about where the gun is and pulls straight up very high. I don't want to clear the gun by a small margin, I want to clear it by a very high margin. Some people have also pointed out that this can put your support elbow closer to a place to protect your face and/or strike.

1B) If only my strong hand is available, I grab my cover garment almost as if the gun was in a cross-draw location, lift the garment, and then pull my strong hand across my stomach before driving down onto the gun. In my experience (and with all credit going to Vinh for the idea) this significantly reduces the odds of getting the shirt tangled in the grip/draw. At least for me, it made the difference for getting consistent sub-1.5 concealed aiwb draws (at Rogers).

2) My strong hand drives down onto the gun (some people start from a bit farther toward the butt end of the gun and come both down and in).

3) I establish a true full grip on the pistol before leaving the holster. There are many people who say this and teach it but when you watch them in video they are still doing some degree of a snatch draw (pulling the gun out of the holster with their fingers before the rest of the hand is truly locked around the gun). For me, a full grip means that I don't have to change my position as the gun starts to move out of the holster. The only thing that moves is my thumb if I have a manually safety to disengage. With any other gun, you could take a photo of my grip in the holster and a photo of my grip as I'm about to shoot and the strong hand position would be identical. Identical.

4A) If two hands are available, I bring the gun up to meet the support hand, rotating it to a muzzle-forward (or muzzle-up, depending on technique) position as it goes. Support hand contacts the gun and forms my complete grip before I start moving the gun forward.

4B) If only my strong hand is available, I rotate the gun up the same way but obviously do not wait for the support hand to mate up to the strong hand.

Two key points for me which are based on my priorities and may not apply to others: first, I have the best possible complete grip I can get with my strong hand before drawing the gun so it is as secure and protected as it can be before it leaves the protection of my holster; second, I have the best possible complete grip I can get with my support hand before extending the gun forward so it is as secure and protected as it can before before leaving the protection of my close in/ready position.

[SLG]

While basically repeating what many have said:

1A) If two hands are available, my support hand grabs the cover garment just about where the gun is and pulls straight up very high. I don't want to clear the gun by a small margin, I want to clear it by a very high margin. Some people have also pointed out that this can put your support elbow closer to a place to protect your face and/or strike.

1B) If only my strong hand is available, I grab my cover garment almost as if the gun was in a cross-draw location, lift the garment, and then pull my strong hand across my stomach before driving down onto the gun. In my experience (and with all credit going to Vinh for the idea) this significantly reduces the odds of getting the shirt tangled in the grip/draw. At least for me, it made the difference for getting consistent sub-1.5 concealed aiwb draws (at Rogers).

2) My strong hand drives down onto the gun (some people start from a bit farther toward the butt end of the gun and come both down and in).

3) I establish a true full grip on the pistol before leaving the holster. There are many people who say this and teach it but when you watch them in video they are still doing some degree of a snatch draw (pulling the gun out of the holster with their fingers before the rest of the hand is truly locked around the gun). For me, a full grip means that I don't have to change my position as the gun starts to move out of the holster. The only thing that moves is my thumb if I have a manually safety to disengage. With any other gun, you could take a photo of my grip in the holster and a photo of my grip as I'm about to shoot and the strong hand position would be identical. Identical.

4A) If two hands are available, I bring the gun up to meet the support hand, rotating it to a muzzle-forward (or muzzle-up, depending on technique) position as it goes. Support hand contacts the gun and forms my complete grip before I start moving the gun forward.

4B) If only my strong hand is available, I rotate the gun up the same way but obviously do not wait for the support hand to mate up to the strong hand.

Two key points for me which are based on my priorities and may not apply to others: first, I have the best possible complete grip I can get with my strong hand before drawing the gun so it is as secure and protected as it can be before it leaves the protection of my holster; second, I have the best possible complete grip I can get with my support hand before extending the gun forward so it is as secure and protected as it can before before leaving the protection of my close in/ready position.

'nuff said.

[Mr_White]

I was wondering mainly about any variations in how members here draw from AIWB and what specific technique they use? I am particularly curious how folks here first acquire a fighting grip on the gun. I've seen different people appear to use different methods and have experimented with various methods myself. I have seen people thumbcap the back of the slide and then put their thumb behind the slide as soon as they begin to clear leather/kydex and also seen people who put their thumb behind the slide and seem to get the web of their hand deep in the tang before they begin drawing. After much trial and error, I like thumbcapping the back of the slide at first a little more but find it doesn't seem to jive so well for me when drawing something like a 1911 with a beavertail grip as opposed to a striker fired gun such as a Glock. Thanks everyone.

I bring my strong hand onto the grip with my thumb flagged high. Maybe a third of my thumb is blocking the back of the slide when I first get master grip. As soon as I start lifting the gun upward, space is created on the left side of the gun and my thumb starts sliding over there as I lift the gun. Before the muzzle clears the holster, that thumb has slid completely over to the left side of the gun and the slide is no longer blocked.

[ToddG]

Maybe a third of my thumb is blocking the back of the slide when I first get master grip.

That seems internally inconsistent to me. If your grip isn't where you finally want it to be (in this case, a fairly signifiant difference in SH thumb position), how is it your master grip? To me, what you described has a lot of "snatch draw" to it.

[JHC]

I bring my strong hand onto the grip with my thumb flagged high. Maybe a third of my thumb is blocking the back of the slide when I first get master grip. As soon as I start lifting the gun upward, space is created on the left side of the gun and my thumb starts sliding over there as I lift the gun. Before the muzzle clears the holster, that thumb has slid completely over to the left side of the gun and the slide is no longer blocked.

Me too. That's why low carrying highly concealable holders suit me. On the Soutnarc dvd I was struck by how he taught the thumb in a flagged position and keeping it there to shoot from retention and prevent fouling the slides function. Interesting contrasting points of view.

[Mr_White]

If your grip isn't where you finally want it to be (in this case, a fairly signifiant difference in SH thumb position), how is it your master grip?

I think it's a small difference in strong hand thumb position myself. The way I think of it is that I just don't go the route of shoving my thumb between the holster and my body upon going for the master grip.

I think the thumb sliding over to the left side of the gun during the time the gun is rising and before it has cleared the holster is not consequential. Even if I did shove my thumb down between my body and holster before even beginning to lift the gun, it still wouldn't truly be my master grip in what I think is your line of thought. Part of my freestyle grip is to press my strong hand thumb down onto the back of my support hand thumb, an adjustment you and I made in AFHF after you so keenly recognized I was varying strong hand thumb position and pressure - thanks! That pressing down can't happen until both hands are on the gun or the strong hand thumb will at least sometimes block my support hand palm/thumb base from getting where it needs to go on the left grip panel. So for me, I think there is going to be a small bit of adjustment after the gun is unseated in the holster no matter what I do.

I went the way I did with this back when I built my AIWB draw in the first place because it felt most efficient with the strong hand path to the gun (not so much up then diving down, but more out then in, even though there is still a slight downward element to it), secure, and I also probably went that way because shoving the thumb down when I stood there and drew nine million times would have jabbed the hell out of my abdomen and I had already decided against an undershirt.



To me, what you described has a lot of "snatch draw" to it.

I don't think of it that way, though it is possible I am thinking of the snatch draw differently than you are, or differently than you and everyone. I don't think I do a snatch draw because the gun is fully seated in my fingers and palm before the gun starts coming up, and the direction of travel of my hand changes at the point I get on the grip. The only adjustments made are for the strong hand thumb to slide to the left side, which feels like it occurs by itself as soon as the gun starts getting lifted and left side space is available, then once the support hand is in place, my strong hand thumb presses down on the back of my support hand thumb. My strong hand also changes direction - it goes out semi-laterally, reverses direction and comes in to the grip, then starts lifting up.

The snatch draw as I understand it, and I could be wrong here, is that the strong hand starts below the gun, comes up toward where it's going to join with the support hand, and while the strong hand is raised, the fingers get underneath the grip and the hand continues on its original path and without stopping or slowing and lifts the gun as it does so. I've tried doing this a little - very little - in dry fire when I was first building my AIWB draw, felt it was far less secure and immediately dismissed it.

I haven't changed my master grip acquisition since AFHF and I bet if you felt I was snatch drawing you would have told me then. ;) Also, I know Ben Stoeger is against the snatch draw and he didn't say anything about my draw being a snatch draw either of the times I've trained with him. On the other hand, Craig Douglas did say something about this aspect of my grip at the beginning of the live fire portion of ECQC, and expressed concern about whether it was a secure enough master grip. I explained basically what I wrote in this post, and he wanted us to just pay attention to whether it became an issue in the course of ECQC. It did not, at all. It was admittedly a training environment, but a tough one as far as they go, and we did plenty of drills where if it were going to be an issue I think it would have manifested then.

[Talionis]

My AIWB draw is very similar to yours, Gabe. The mechanics are very different indeed from what I call a scoop draw and what I think everyone else here is calling a snatch draw.

In a true scoop/snatch draw, the hand starts below the gun and the fingers scoop the gun up from the holster and only as the gun is being lifted does the heel/palm and then thumb begin to establish grip on the gun. This draw is obviously a bit less secure than any of the others mentioned in this thread. I have experimented with a scoop draw in the past, and while it was very fast (especially from an OWB competition rig), I dismissed it as unsuitable for either carry or competition. I believe that the combination finger and heel/palm contact keep very good control of the gun while I'm in the process of withdrawing the gun from the holster while the meat of my thumb comes into solid contact with the gun as soon as a gap begins to form between gun and body.

[ToddG]

So for me, I think there is going to be a small bit of adjustment after the gun is unseated in the holster no matter what I do.

I get that. My approach is to get what is essentially my SHO grip on the gun before it moves. That gives me the most secure grip I can accomplish one handed and helps me avoid what SLG pointed out: the number of times we've seen people drop guns on the draw. I think it helps keep my grip & draw more consistent which in turn means fewer fumbled draws. I've also seen enough people grab their shirt as the grip finishes later in the draw that it's a significant worry for me.


... and I had already decided against an undershirt.

Which is a mutation I simply cannot fathom to begin with. :cool:


I don't think I do a snatch draw because the gun is fully seated in my fingers and palm before the gun starts coming up, and the direction of travel of my hand changes at the point I get on the grip.

That makes sense and perhaps my idea of a snatch draw is just tautological: if you're drawing the gun before your grip is finalized, it's a snatch. But I agree that if you're not lifting the gun into your grip then it's not really snatching the gun. I'll go back and look at some of your posted videos because I know that something recently made me think you were snatching the gun up into your palm.

[Mr_White]

I get that. My approach is to get what is essentially my SHO grip on the gun before it moves. That gives me the most secure grip I can accomplish one handed and helps me avoid what SLG pointed out: the number of times we've seen people drop guns on the draw. I think it helps keep my grip & draw more consistent which in turn means fewer fumbled draws. I've also seen enough people grab their shirt as the grip finishes later in the draw that it's a significant worry for me.

When I did mess around with (but never implemented) the snatch/scoop draw, I definitely felt like it was a tossed gun waiting to happen. I seem to remember it being good for .1 or .2 time savings on the draw, but in no way did I think it was worthwhile.


Which is a mutation I simply cannot fathom to begin with. :cool:

Explained below. :p


You have no dignity.




I'll go back and look at some of your posted videos because I know that something recently made me think you were snatching the gun up into your palm.

I think sometimes it can look like that when I hit the grip super clean and spend minimal time riding the gun in the holster before I lift it. I started poking around at a few videos to clip screen shots, but the quality wasn't great and it was a little hard to see anything besides my lack of dignity. Hahahahahaa. I think you can see the thumb position a bit if you pause at the right moment.

[ToddG]

When I did mess around with (but never implemented) the snatch/scoop draw, I definitely felt like it was a tossed gun waiting to happen. I seem to remember it being good for .1 or .2 time savings on the draw, but in no way did I think it was worthwhile.

Definitely the proper priority IMHO.


I think sometimes it can look like that when I hit the grip super clean and spend minimal time riding the gun in the holster before I lift it. I started poking around at a few videos to clip screen shots, but the quality wasn't great and it was a little hard to see anything besides my lack of dignity. Hahahahahaa. I think you can see the thumb position a bit if you pause at the right moment.

I've always thought it would be a good exercise to do some close-up video of certain folks during their drawstroke. Say some vids of the belt/holster area, some at the point where the hands meet up, some as it gets toward full extension, etc.

[YVK]

Not entirely relevant to a insightful discussion above, but when I started thumbcapping the P30 slide [largely influenced by Gabe's draw and Ernest' description of his P30 grip], my strong side thumb has stopped being a significant part of a grip. It is there and does provide some pressure, but not a whole lot. Time will prove if I am losing something in a security of my grip, but so far I haven't lost the gun and I am really enjoying the benefits of a super-high strong hand placement.

[GJM]

I've always thought it would be a good exercise to do some close-up video of certain folks during their drawstroke. Say some vids of the belt/holster area, some at the point where the hands meet up, some as it gets toward full extension, etc.

I think I have a link to Mr_White drawing in slo-mo, if that will help?

[YVK]

Gabe, he wants the world to see that thing. Again.

Sometimes I wonder about that GJM guy.

[GJM]

Good vid here:

http://youtu.be/pQqgdeGhsx8

[ToddG]

So obviously it's difficult to see on a video from far away especially because it's either too fast (dammit, Gabe, slow down! :cool:) or too blurry in slo-mo, but to me it doesn't look like your SH fingers are fully closed around the grip before the gun starts leaving the holster. Though at those speeds it's probably becoming hard to differentiate between one specific step and another.

edited to add: So taking the two that are most interesting to me given my own recent thoughts on draw strokes, your muzzle level press-out to the head A-zone looks like a different, more complete grip than the one to the body A-zone.

[Corlissimo]

edited to add: So taking the two that are most interesting to me given my own recent thoughts on draw strokes, your muzzle level press-out to the head A-zone looks like a different, more complete grip than the one to the body A-zone.

Could that be a result of knowing in advance the demands of a more precision based shot (head) vs going to the torso? IOW: Gabe knows before he draws that he'll need a more precise shot location so he establishes a better grip (possibly a subconscious decision based on his training) in order to execute it cleanly.

If so, what does that say about the relatively more lax grip used for the less demanding shots? Is this process/effect, if real, a bad thing? Or something to work for? (Kind of like following the logic of "see what you need to see")

[Mr_White]

Could that be a result of knowing in advance the demands of a more precision based shot (head) vs going to the torso? IOW: Gabe knows before he draws that he'll need a more precise shot location so he establishes a better grip (possibly a subconscious decision based on his training) in order to execute it cleanly.

If so, what does that say about the relatively more lax grip used for the less demanding shots? Is this process/effect, if real, a bad thing? Or something to work for? (Kind of like following the logic of "see what you need to see")

I wouldn't rule out that I could be doing something different subconsciously, but I certainly wasn't attempting to draw with one grip to a certain target but a different grip to another target. I'd definitely be of the mind that one should draw with The Grip They Use All The Time (Master Grip) rather than varying it according to the shot at hand. There may be an element of getting away with a bad grip in some situations, but I don't think that should be the goal. Everything is underpinned by grip. Aiming, pressing the trigger, index, transitions, security of the grip, all of it. All parts of shooting will be aggravated and more difficult and probably slower and/or less accurate with a suboptimal grip.

More thoughts in a minute...

[Mr_White]

So obviously it's difficult to see on a video from far away especially because it's either too fast (dammit, Gabe, slow down! :cool:) or too blurry in slo-mo, but to me it doesn't look like your SH fingers are fully closed around the grip before the gun starts leaving the holster. Though at those speeds it's probably becoming hard to differentiate between one specific step and another.

edited to add: So taking the two that are most interesting to me given my own recent thoughts on draw strokes, your muzzle level press-out to the head A-zone looks like a different, more complete grip than the one to the body A-zone.

I went back and looked at that video again too. Doesn't show any of the thumb stuff we were talking about before, unfortunately. I see what you are saying in a couple of instances that the gun seems to start rising a tiny, tiny fraction earlier than in other instances. I personally think that's just small variation from one rep to the next, and as you said it does become hard to tell one specific step from another – edges get rounded off. I had a hard time telling any difference in grip acquisition between the muzzle-level upper and lower A draws myself.

Maybe this will help clarify and frame what we can see in the video: I took a few pictures of the way I form my strong hand as it is headed toward the grip. Basically I make a little gun shape, with thumb flagged and trigger finger already straight as if to say pew pew pew, and the other fingers semi-curled. I slam that mofo onto the gun's grip and it fits into the pocket you can see between my palm and fingers. The two physical/tactile reference points I am looking for to 'know' my grip is where it needs to be is to feel my Glock knuckle slam into the bottom of the trigger guard and feel the lower part of my palm on the lower end of the backstrap.

I think there's minimized time riding the gun in the holster before lifting with my arm because there is very little finger curling/hand closing around the grip that needs to happen. Just a tiny, tiny amount. It's mostly already done by virtue of the shape I form with my hand. I think that little bit of final finger curling is where we might be seeing the gun seeming to rise a tiny bit as I'm closing my hand around the grip, rather than from lifting the gun with my arm. That part happens a tiny fraction later. Video review is great to try seeing things that are hard to self-perceive when you are doing them.

Bottom line for me at this point is that my draw feels relatively vetted within the environments available to me – training and competition – and I really like the performance level it produces and I'm pretty happy with it. There's always more vetting, more study, more practice, and more tendinitis therapy to be had though...

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7377/16435493552_af89042445_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/r3mcCu)20150203_082900 (https://flic.kr/p/r3mcCu) by OrigamiAK (https://www.flickr.com/people/52790396@N08/), on Flickr

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8576/15813911284_4cf577da63_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/q6qqSQ)20150203_082839 (https://flic.kr/p/q6qqSQ) by OrigamiAK (https://www.flickr.com/people/52790396@N08/), on Flickr

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7400/15813907064_83f2e529ae_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/q6qpC5)20150203_083220 (https://flic.kr/p/q6qpC5) by OrigamiAK (https://www.flickr.com/people/52790396@N08/), on Flickr

[ToddG]

I see what you are saying in a couple of instances that the gun seems to start rising a tiny, tiny fraction earlier than in other instances. I personally think that's just small variation from one rep to the next, and as you said it does become hard to tell one specific step from another – edges get rounded off.
...
The two physical/tactile reference points I am looking for to 'know' my grip is where it needs to be is to feel my Glock knuckle slam into the bottom of the trigger guard and feel the lower part of my palm on the lower end of the backstrap.

That's exactly what I think I'm seeing: your pinky (and perhaps other fingers) not being closed around the grip before the gun starts to rise from the holster, at least in some instances. So you may very well have those two points of reference but not what I think of as a "master grip." I'm in no position to judge whether it's compromised to a point where it could be a problem. Personally, I err on the side of as certain a grip as possible because the variables I cannot control (being injured, being jostled, etc.) are the ones that could cause a problem on the draw.

I certainly can't argue that you're hampering the speed of your draw. It's amazing.

[Mr_White]

Well, I'll tell you that I was surprised on those few reps to see the gun move before the fingers were completely done moving. So hooray for video review. It's not intentional and I don't really like it. I've not found it to be any actual problem and I don't expect it to become one, but it definitely gives me something to pay attention to in practice. I'll see if I can figure out why it happens sometimes and not others, and try to get rid of it. I don't think it has to cost any time, just needs technique tightened up a little.

[SouthNarc]

Gabe you're a machine dude.

[Corlissimo]

Well, I'll tell you that I was surprised on those few reps to see the gun move before the fingers were completely done moving. So hooray for video review. It's not intentional and I don't really like it. I've not found it to be any actual problem and I don't expect it to become one, but it definitely gives me something to pay attention to in practice. I'll see if I can figure out why it happens sometimes and not others, and try to get rid of it. I don't think it has to cost any time, just needs technique tightened up a little.

IIRC correctly, I remember reading a post here somewhere, sometime back about someone who was using a "pinch" type grip to draw a P2KSK from a low ride AIWB rig. There was video too. It actually seemed fairly effective, and I know that I've done similarly with the same type of setup. Possibly there's some of that happening when the gun starts moving prior to your fingers fully closing around the grip?

I get what you mean about striving for the full and proper master grip prior to drawing, and that the "edges are rounded" when looking at the vids. Either way, I have to agree with SN: You're a frickin' machine.

This is really a great thread for helping me understand some of the nuances I've been missing in analysis of my own draw. Thanks to all for the insights! :)

[Mr_White]

IIRC correctly, I remember reading a post here somewhere, sometime back about someone who was using a "pinch" type grip to draw a P2KSK from a low ride AIWB rig. There was video too. It actually seemed fairly effective, and I know that I've done similarly with the same type of setup. Possibly there's some of that happening when the gun starts moving prior to your fingers fully closing around the grip?

I get what you mean about striving for the full and proper master grip prior to drawing, and that the "edges are rounded" when looking at the vids. Either way, I have to agree with SN: You're a frickin' machine.

This is really a great thread for helping me understand some of the nuances I've been missing in analysis of my own draw. Thanks to all for the insights! :)

Kind of thinking out loud here, but I think what is happening is that the act of fully closing my fingers is what's making the gun start to move in those instances (fingers pulling the gun up by the front strap slightly.) Just got to get to the root of that. Glad you are finding the discussion useful!

[GJM]

Mr_White, can you elaborate on how not wearing an undershirt enhances your overall draw?

[Rick Finsta]

Fr=uN

Basically, lower coefficient of friction, especially when sweaty and gross.

[Mr_White]

Mr_White, can you elaborate on how not wearing an undershirt enhances your overall draw?

No undershirt:

The truest answer is probably that I have never been a person to wear undershirts and that's probably not going to change.

The next biggest answer is performance and efficiency in practice. No undershirt means one less thing to accidentally grab and bunch up with the grip of the gun when drawing, and less material available to interfere with putting the gun in the holster. No undershirt means not stopping practice every four repetitions or so to tuck it back in.

[Mr_White]

So I tried rooting out the 'fingers lifting' issue in dry practice last night and this morning. I think I have it figured out, but will have to verify with video when I get the chance.

Basically, I think I'm intermittently leading just a bit with my palm with my wrist cocked back very slightly and opening my fingers a little wider at the same time, which means that the fingers actually have a little curling to do to get where they need to be on the grip, and the fingers lift the gun slightly while curling. The solution, if I am right about all this, is more consistency in the gun-shape with my strong hand and more slamming it onto the grip with force. When I do it that way, which is already most of the time, it doesn't feel like there is any curling of the fingers – they arrive on the grip already how they need to be.

[GJM]

No undershirt:

The truest answer is probably that I have never been a person to wear undershirts and that's probably not going to change.

The next biggest answer is performance and efficiency in practice. No undershirt means one less thing to accidentally grab and bunch up with the grip of the gun when drawing, and less material available to interfere with putting the gun in the holster. No undershirt means not stopping practice every four repetitions or so to tuck it back in.

Mr_White, how does the bare tummy enhance your overall tactical posture? I have seen video, and with your high sweep of the cover garment, I wouldn't call your draw modest.

I think TLG probably wears something like this as an undershirt. It doesn't appear to require re-tucking every draw or two.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image_zps94e3f581.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image_zps94e3f581.jpg.html)

[Mr_White]

Mr_White, how does the bare tummy enhance your overall tactical posture? I have seen video, and with your high sweep of the cover garment, I wouldn't call your draw modest.

I think it shows a tango that I put performance before appearance. Maybe it's like a tactical equivalent of wearing sweatpants all the time.

[23JAZ]

Mr_White, how does the bare tummy enhance your overall tactical posture? I have seen video, and with your high sweep of the cover garment, I wouldn't call your draw modest.

I think TLG probably wears something like this as an undershirt. It doesn't appear to require re-tucking every draw or two.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image_zps94e3f581.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image_zps94e3f581.jpg.html)
Doesn't 5.11 make a tactical onesie?

[SLG]

Very interesting read Mr White, thanks for taking the time to analyze what you are doing and write it up. I do have a few questions if you don't mind.

What is your on demand (cold) draw time from concealment?

What is your average warm time?

Do you shoot any other guns besides your Glock? If so, are your times the same or different?

I may have missed this before, but are you seeing a sight picture every time, or just a rougher reference?

Thanks very much.

[GJM]

Overture the last month or two, I have been thinking about draw times, and various factors that make exact times very hard to compare. Considerations are do you have a grip suitable for one shot or a bunch of them, are you extending the pistol and locking up, are you stopping the gun, are you aiming, and how and when are you running the trigger. Depending upon what you are and are not doing, and disregarding a botched draw or cold versus warmed up, a draw might go from .75 to 1.20 for the same eight inch circle at 7 yards. Makes me think discussing times is very tricky.

[SLG]

Overture the last month or two, I have been thinking about draw times, and various factors that make exact times very hard to compare. Considerations are do you have a grip suitable for one shot or a bunch of them, are you extending the pistol and locking up, are you stopping the gun, are you aiming, and how and when are you running the trigger. Depending upon what you are and are not doing, and disregarding a botched draw or cold versus warmed up, a draw might go from .75 to 1.20 for the same eight inch circle at 7 yards. Makes me think discussing times is very tricky.

Out of the above list, the only thing that invalidates a draw to me is the single shot grip vs. a proper grip. No other way to say it. If you can't empty your mag at full speed, then your grip was wrong and is meaningless to me. The rest of the factors though, don't mean much to me, because the target size and distance will dictate all of them. Either you got the hits at a certain draw speed/distance/target, or you didn't, so the results will speak for themselves.

[GJM]

Sometimes it is hard to discuss these things online.

The elements that I need in a draw, to shoot with a high degree of consistency, are a proper grip, extending my arms and locking up wrists/elbows/shoulders, stopping the gun, aiming, and working the trigger consistent with the target. Each of these elements adds time. The more you shortcut each step, the faster your draw, but at the cost of consistency.

For example, last week, Taadski, my wife and I shot with Robbie Leatham. At one point, we badgered Robbie into a max speed draw to a steel at 10 or 12 yards. He made the shot in .74. However, to do that he cheated on extending his arms, stopping and aiming, and said the gun was still moving as he broke the shot. He said it was lucky he hit, but those were the shortcuts he needed to take to make that time. By Internet standards, it could be said that TGO consistently hit a steel at 12 yards in .74. :)

Robbie shot that same steel in demos, as the first shot of an array, and averaged about 1.30 something. My point is that we could say he shoots that same shot in .74 or 1.35, and both would be correct.

[Mr_White]

Very interesting read Mr White, thanks for taking the time to analyze what you are doing and write it up. I do have a few questions if you don't mind.

What is your on demand (cold) draw time from concealment?

What is your average warm time?

Do you shoot any other guns besides your Glock? If so, are your times the same or different?

I may have missed this before, but are you seeing a sight picture every time, or just a rougher reference?

Thanks very much.

I'll try to answer as specifically as I can, though it's not structured the way you asked the questions.

Raw speed to draw and make the gun go bang near full extension is ~.70. Fastest live fire draw of mine that I've ever seen on the timer was .62.

Drawing and firing using pretty coarse visual alignment – seeing the back of the slide projecting/superimposing over the target spot but gun still in significant motion – is ~.70 to .80 to a lower A zone or -0 zone at 7 yards. I will probably hit but may not. Misses generally strike the C zone.

Lower A/-0 at 7 yards, but with the gun almost locked up, decelerating, and seeing a sight picture is more like ~.80 to .90. That is most probably a hit.

I'd say .90 to 1.0 for a lower A/-0 at 7 yards and a 'guaranteed' hit. The gun is locked up at full extension, settling out of motion and almost stopped, and I see a sight picture.

I've hit 3x5s at 7 yards at ~.75 or so before but it's not what I'd consider reliable.

~.95 to 1.15 is about the speed I can very probably hit a 3x5 card at 7 yards. 1.05 to 1.10 seems to come up on the timer over and over and over for me on this. The gun is settling out of motion and almost stopped or just barely stopped, and I see a sight picture.

~1.15-1.30 is about my 'guaranteed' pace on a 3x5 at 7 yards. Gun is stopped and I see the sight picture and am distinctly more careful on the trigger.

I can generally do that stuff cold if I have been practicing regularly. Warmed up will tend to be at the better end of the time ranges I specified. If I am tense/stressed, add ~.10 or so to all of it. A repetition I really nail might be ~.10 or so faster that what I said.

I basically only shoot my G34s, always from concealment. No idea with other guns/rigs/clothing/open carry, etc.

All these times are from memory. I haven't been doing a ton of live fire practice and logging results lately, so apologies in advance if I am off somewhere, but I'm pretty confident that's about where I'm at. I hope those are adequate answers to you questions, but let me know if I can tell you anything else.

[SLG]

Sometimes it is hard to discuss these things online.

The elements that I need in a draw, to shoot with a high degree of consistency, are a proper grip, extending my arms and locking up wrists/elbows/shoulders, stopping the gun, aiming, and working the trigger consistent with the target. Each of these elements adds time. The more you shortcut each step, the faster your draw, but at the cost of consistency.

For example, last week, Taadski, my wife and I shot with Robbie Leatham. At one point, we badgered Robbie into a max speed draw to a steel at 10 or 12 yards. He made the shot in .74. However, to do that he cheated on extending his arms, stopping and aiming, and said the gun was still moving as he broke the shot. He said it was lucky he hit, but those were the shortcuts he needed to take to make that time. By Internet standards, it could be said that TGO consistently hit a steel at 12 yards in .74. :)

Robbie shot that same steel in demos, as the first shot of an array, and averaged about 1.30 something. My point is that we could say he shoots that same shot in .74 or 1.35, and both would be correct.

Well, I guess I don't see it that way. Rob certainly knows the difference between a lucky shot and an on demand ability. That one piece of info makes all the difference. There are no "internet standards" when I discuss this stuff, though I know other people have them. Its always been pretty obvious to me who can do what they say when we meet on a range:-) Its like the apparently legions of internet guys who can shoot a FAST under 4 seconds all day long, but when Todd is standing there with a coin and a timer, they are lucky to get sub 6 seconds. Those people and their ideas on training do not interest me. Doesn't mean they're bad people, and it doesn't mean I don't like them in person. Just means their skill and knowledge in regards to shooting is of no interest to me.

[SLG]

Mr_White,

That all is perfectly clear, thanks very much for the detailed response. I have a similar set of times and conditions that I apply to my training, they're just not as fast as your times. It is impressive to watch your videos.

[miller_man]

Just adding this in - I too CANNOT stand a tucked undershirt for AIWB. I have tried a few times and hated jamming my thumb into t-shirt and wrapping shirt material up in between my fingers and inside grip panel.

Plus from my experience (most days at work) - tucked shirts are constantly becoming un-tucked with normal body movements, and this means more free floating shirt around the pistol.

Edit - I do not have any experience wearing the Underarmor type shirts.

[GJM]

I think Mr_White's range of .7-1.0 for the same lower A hit makes my exact point about the range of draw speeds depending upon what you do.

The FAST, on demand performance, and various claims about it, would make its own fascinating thread.

[SLG]

I think Mr_White's range of .7-1.0 for the same lower A hit makes my exact point about the range of draw speeds depending upon what you do.

The FAST, on demand performance, and various claims about it, would make its own fascinating thread.

I think you are correct, talking about this on the internet can be very difficult.

I greatly appreciate Wr White's detailed response, but I think you read it differently than I did. His range of speeds is interesting and informative, but the meat and potatoes are the two lines addressing his "guaranteed" hits. Of course nothing is guaranteed, at any speed or distance, but his point is well taken. If some asks me what my draw times are, I could give as much detail as Mr White did, or, because I hate to type, I could just give my guaranteed times. From the standpoint of measuring your current ability to do something (as in hit the target, since misses don't actually count for anything), only the "guaranteed" times count. If I only gave one of my "non-guaranteed times", that would be disingenuous, to say the least. If I only posted videos with my best ever times (minus that explanation), that would also be disingenuous. The time that I can make the gun go off is not the same as the time I can guarantee a hit. I don't really care how fast I can make a loud noise, I care how fast I can get 12-18" of penetration in my target. Mr White's detailed response is very instructive from the standpoint of being very honest about his ability over the internet, and I appreciate him humoring my questions. The take away though, is that while he is very fast by any standard, he realizes that raw speed is not the same as making a hit on demand. I wish others would learn that bit as well.

[JV_]

If some asks me what my draw times are, I could give as much detail as Mr White did, or, because I hate to type, I could just give my guaranteed times.

That's what I do as well. I like seeing people prove the times they claim, and I assume someone will call me on it at some point too.

I think the guaranteed hit time is the most honest way to report it, when specificity is not offered.

[MVS]

That's what I do as well. I like seeing people prove the times they claim, and I assume someone will call me on it at some point too.

..

Funny that. You would think most people would realize that. I was in a class this past summer with a somewhat well known personality who often posts video's of very impressive shooting online. In class however, though he shot very well, it was nowhere near what I have seen on video. Every time I see him post something new I think back to that weekends performance.

[GJM]

That's what I do as well. I like seeing people prove the times they claim, and I assume someone will call me on it at some point too.

I think the guaranteed hit time is the most honest way to report it, when specificity is not offered.


Funny that. You would think most people would realize that. I was in a class this past summer with a somewhat well known personality who often posts video's of very impressive shooting online. In class however, though he shot very well, it was nowhere near what I have seen on video. Every time I see him post something new I think back to that weekends performance.

Shocked face. Isn't most stuff on the web is driven by money, ego or both?

This isn't just a PF thing. Read Facebook and expect objective stuff. Look at a selfie and think it is a representative photo. Read flying forums, and listen to the blather. Hell, just listen to Brian Williams.

On PF, I mostly cut folks some slack on these things, both because my natural skepticism causes me to generally disregard results that I don't personally see, plus I definitely give folks credit for actually shooting and discussing their shooting. What I would like to see, is a lot more people, especially staff and SME members, shooting and posting their results. From that group it is mostly just TLG and DOCGKR doing the regular reporting (and Todd gets mucho credit for pushing through pain and putting himself out there now).

It is easy to sit back and throw rocks -- especially when you aren't hanging yourself out there. I think we need to encourage more folks, staff and members alike, to shoot, discuss actual shooting, and post their experiences shooting.

[Casual Friday]

Its like the apparently legions of internet guys who can shoot a FAST under 4 seconds all day long, but when Todd is standing there with a coin and a timer, they are lucky to get sub 6 seconds.


The FAST, on demand performance, and various claims about it, would make its own fascinating thread.

If you guys think my internet FAST times are unimpressive, you should see them in real life!

[SLG]

I mostly don't participate on P-F, for a variety of reasons. When I can, I do. I almost never read the drill of the week and certainly don't follow it. I won't post videos of myself shooting, but I try to add results (like the BD2 thread) when I can. Though I shoot for fun, I also shoot for work. The work part is what drives my practice, not this forum. I'm not here to compete with anyone, and I don't use this forum to try and make myself relevant in the industry. If anyone thinks that my posted shooting and results and experiences are anything but perfectly factual, they are welcome to come out and meet me. Unlike most of the internet commandos I've met, I can do everything I say. I've shot with enough people on this forum who I'm sure will verify that.
I don't read facebook, I don't get on other forums at all, and until last week, I didn't know who Brian Williams was. The internet is the new boob tube. I accomplish a lot more in life when I'm not plugged into a computer, so I think that is what I will go back to doing.

[Casual Friday]

SLG, I hope you didn't take my post to be an insult towards you or GJM. My apologies if that is how it came across. I was poking fun at myself while acknowledging that things are often exaggerated online. On gun forums it's often how many rounds people shoot, on motorcycle forums I visit it's often how many miles a person rides every year. Self deprecating humor is one of my specialties.

[SLG]

SLG, I hope you didn't take my post to be an insult towards you or GJM. My apologies if that is how it came across. I was poking fun at myself while acknowledging that things are often exaggerated online. On gun forums it's often how many rounds people shoot, on motorcycle forums I visit it's often how many miles a person rides every year. Self deprecating humor is one of my specialties.

Not at all dude.

[MVS]

I mostly don't participate on P-F, for a variety of reasons. When I can, I do. I almost never read the drill of the week and certainly don't follow it. I won't post videos of myself shooting, but I try to add results (like the BD2 thread) when I can. Though I shoot for fun, I also shoot for work. The work part is what drives my practice, not this forum. I'm not here to compete with anyone, and I don't use this forum to try and make myself relevant in the industry. If anyone thinks that my posted shooting and results and experiences are anything but perfectly factual, they are welcome to come out and meet me. Unlike most of the internet commandos I've met, I can do everything I say. I've shot with enough people on this forum who I'm sure will verify that.
I don't read facebook, I don't get on other forums at all, and until last week, I didn't know who Brian Williams was. The internet is the new boob tube. I accomplish a lot more in life when I'm not plugged into a computer, so I think that is what I will go back to doing.

Hopefully that isn't about my comment. I don't know you in real life, I don't think, though many here I know from meeting them at various classes or the Rangemaster Tactical Conference. You don't come across as a BS'er to me and I definitely don't want to discourage any further input from you or anyone else who is well meaning and knowledgeable. To me P-F and TPI seem a little different than much of the rest of the internet. If you want to get really frustrated visit some of the state gun forums. Anyway, enough detour from me.

[SLG]

Hopefully that isn't about my comment. I don't know you in real life, I don't think, though many here I know from meeting them at various classes or the Rangemaster Tactical Conference. You don't come across as a BS'er to me and I definitely don't want to discourage any further input from you or anyone else who is well meaning and knowledgeable. To me P-F and TPI seem a little different than much of the rest of the internet. If you want to get really frustrated visit some of the state gun forums. Anyway, enough detour from me.

No issue here either.

[GJM]

And to add my .02 cents, my comment was not directed at SLG, who I know shoots very well, or any one individual. My point was more shooting, and more technical discussion of shooting, is a good thing for members, staff, and the designated SME group. Passion for shooting is what makes PF the place it is.

[Casual Friday]

And to add my .02 cents, my comment was not directed at SLG, who I know shoots very well, or any one individual. My point was more shooting, and more technical discussion of shooting, is a good thing for members, staff, and the designated SME group. Passion for shooting is what makes PF the place it is.

I learn stuff here.

[ToddG]

At one point, we badgered Robbie into a max speed draw to a steel at 10 or 12 yards. He made the shot in .74. However, to do that he cheated on extending his arms, stopping and aiming, and said the gun was still moving as he broke the shot. He said it was lucky he hit, but those were the shortcuts he needed to take to make that time. By Internet standards, it could be said that TGO consistently hit a steel at 12 yards in .74. :)

No, it couldn't. And I imagine if anyone went around saying that was his claim, he'd be the first person to squash it (and the person making those claims). That's the whole point: what he could do one time, under specific conditions with plenty of time beforehand to plan exactly what he was going to do is much different than what he can stand up and guarantee is going to happen under almost any circumstance. I've seen Rob pull some incredibly fast draws. He's the last person to walk around pretending that his personal best is "what I can do." Because there's a huge difference between what I did once and what I can show you right now, guaranteed, every time.

This is basically a continuation of the same old argument. Some people will videotape themselves doing a drill twenty times and post their one perfect run. It's like the guy who shoots a USPSA classifier five times in one day with the hero-or-zero mentality and eventually pulls out enough good scores that he earns a GM card even though 75% of his classifier scores were nowhere near the GM level.

Other people are more concerned with consistency because they cannot afford the hero-or-zero approach. They're not worried about shooting ten stages in a day where one fouled draw will just blend into the score. They're worried about what they can do when they absolutely have to do it right the very first time, this very second, no warm up or "stage plan," period.

The first guy to win a FAST coin (SLG) didn't do it on a quiet range all by himself. He did on the first try in front of his entire tac team on a crappy poorly lit indoor range. The last guy to earn a coin (Bob Vogel) didn't do it at his leisure when he felt like it. He did it on the spot in front of a class he was teaching while using gear that wasn't even his. That's on demand performance. "I shot the FAST in 3.84 once!" is great and all, but it's nothing by comparison to the guys who can do it consistently under stress when the environment and circumstances are less than ideal.

That's one of the reasons I like the 99 Drill and things like the Rogers tests. It's not how well you can do things once. It's how well you can do a lot of things over and over again.


It is easy to sit back and throw rocks -- especially when you aren't hanging yourself out there.

I think it's a big -- and candidly ridiculous -- mistake to equate "hanging yourself out there" with reporting drill results. We have quite a few SMEs who don't shoot the DotW with any frequency because they're busy doing their SME jobs offline and they probably don't think they need to say how fast they shot the FAST this week in between patrols in the Middle East or raids on drug labs, etc. They're too busy "hanging themselves out there" for real. That's why they were chosen to be SMEs. I guarantee not a single one of them feels a need to prove himself.

[GJM]

You are twisting my words, ignoring the :rolleyes:. I will say it again, most internet claims about draw speed are pure BS. That is the reason I put the smiley after saying, by Internet standards, Robbie could say he draws to X target in .74.

Regardless of the reasons why, the participation in DOW (and posting of shooting results) by the Staff and SME members is almost non-existent. It isn't about "winning" or showing "who is fastest." It is about participating, leading by example, and encouraging others.

[JV_]

the participation in DOW (and posting of shooting results) by the Staff and SME members is almost non-existent.I agree that it could be better, it'd be great if we could all make it to the range 3-5x per week, but we also have lives outside of our unpaid duties here.

[JAD]

GW's extremely concrete idea of exactly how much time it takes to perform various tasks, and therefore being able to know what pace is necessary to produce the desired result, is to me the pinnacle of defensive technical shooting ability, at least with respect to what can be developed on the range. If there's an ultimate state I'd like to achieve with my shooting, that's it. It's funny how that lines up with some of the stuff DB has written about.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[WCDUB]

I grab the pistol with my right hand and pull it out of the holster, pretty much the same as with every other holster...

LOL! Me too,only with my left hand.