Gel vs. Real World as relates to "yaw" ?

[Unobtanium]

When it comes to expansion, gel seems to mirror the real world pretty well unless bones or some other structure are impacted. However, I have noticed that penetration from gel tests does not necessarily carry over to real-world, such is the case with the 124gr 9mm Gold Dot, which regularly penetrates well over 12" in gel. Not many upper chests are more than 12" thick unless we are talking about a chronic COPD patient who is morbidly obese. Even then, the upper chest area typically is not 16" thick in my experiences. A good bit of that is lung, and if the sternum is not impacted, there is potentially "no bone" there, either.

Same for other aspects of the body.

Yet routinely, I read of expended ammunition being recovered from 130# crack fiend's clothing after OIS's.

The penetration in gel simply does not compute with the real world, although it is very useful for comparison between ammunitions in lieu of the optionally public executions of child abusers and sex offenders that many of us would prefer.

My question now, is how does this correlate with ammunition that requires yaw for terminal effect? MK262 in gel typically comes apart at the 5" mark, although it begins to lose attitude at the 4" mark. Jihadists, according to a power-point authored (co-authored?) by Md Roberts, are 7" thick viewed frontally.

How does a consistent performer in gel perform in the real world? Is penetration before yaw in gel what is seen in real OIS/MIL/Hunting experience, or, like total penetration, is it typically a much shorter (or longer, conversely?) "neck" before loss of stability and fragmentation?

[KeeFus]

Ive been in a firearms instructor class all week. We reviewed this case today and maybe it will answer some questions in regards to bullets performing on the street as they do in ballistic gel testing.

***If you have a weak stomach do not click on the link.***

http://catm.com/yabbfiles/Attachments/FBI_Defensive_Systems_Unit_Ballistic_Research_Faci lity_FBIAcademy.pdf

ETA (and someone correct me I am wrong): 4 of the 5 the .40 S&W Gold Dot 180 grain bullets that made contact with this suspect performed as they do in ballistic gelatin w/ 4LD. The 223 rounds (all Hornady TAP of either a 55 grain or 75 grain version) did not.

[Luke]

That is insane. If that's not enough to make you carry a spare mag idk what is!

[JCS]

Thanks for sharing that link. It certainly will make you rethink your edc setup.

[KeeFus]

4 of the 5 the .40 S&W Gold Dot 180 grain bullets that made contact with this suspect performed as they do in ballistic gelatin w/ 4LD. The 223 rounds (all Hornady TAP of either a 55 grain or 75 grain version) did not.

Actually, it was 5 of 6 Gold Dots performed to spec. Its been a long week. :D

[Unobtanium]

Ive been in a firearms instructor class all week. We reviewed this case today and maybe it will answer some questions in regards to bullets performing on the street as they do in ballistic gel testing.

***If you have a weak stomach do not click on the link.***

http://catm.com/yabbfiles/Attachments/FBI_Defensive_Systems_Unit_Ballistic_Research_Faci lity_FBIAcademy.pdf

ETA (and someone correct me I am wrong): 4 of the 5 the .40 S&W Gold Dot 180 grain bullets that made contact with this suspect performed as they do in ballistic gelatin w/ 4LD. The 223 rounds (all Hornady TAP of either a 55 grain or 75 grain version) did not.

The performance of the .223 TAP ammunition,
although consistent with manufacturer’s claims,
did not perform terminally as this Police
Department expected

So...what did it actually do, aside from the foot? I see what it was CLAIMED that they did, but it is very nebulous. I saw some wounds which looked like they would have been superficial even if made by a .300WM, due to their location and tracking.

[KeeFus]

We were told that the 223/5.56 rounds did not expand as advertised by the manufacturer. They simply went thru. Obviously one crushed the right side pelvis, which made him immobile but the determined 18 kept fighting until the officer flanked him and put a .40 in his head.

[BLR]

When it comes to expansion, gel seems to mirror the real world pretty well unless bones or some other structure are impacted. However, I have noticed that penetration from gel tests does not necessarily carry over to real-world, such is the case with the 124gr 9mm Gold Dot, which regularly penetrates well over 12" in gel.

Your journey of terminal ballistics starts here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Newtonian_fluid

[Chuck Haggard]

Actually what you heard was wrong.

In the case noted, a source of a lot of internets bullshit, the issue with the Hornady ammo was high fragmentation and under penetration.

[Unobtanium]

Actually what you heard was worng.

In the case noted, a source of a lot of internets bullshit, the issue with the Hornady ammo was high fragmentation and under penetration.

What happened to them? Did they strike barriers or extended extremities first? Otherwise, I fail to see how they could fail to significantly penetrate on the target described. He looked relatively "normal" medically.

[DocGKR]

STOP! RTF now. I can scarcely believe this garbage is still showing up...

That document as presented is an incomplete, bastardized version of a FBI analysis of the PA fight that was produced to correct the innumerable errors in the local coroner's poorly written initial autopsy report that was the source of much internet speculation and rumormongering about the incident. The FBI document was NOT authorized to be publicly released and the person who stole it was severely disciplined.

This BS has been coming up for years now like some kind of hydra--wack it off and it just springs up again anew.

The PA incident in question has lots of valid data worth learning if you are an LE responder, but repeating the public misinformation over this document and incident is an indubitable indicator that the person is blind, illiterate, ignorant, or perhaps some combination of these three afflictions.

One take away pearl is that fragmenting .223 rounds with poor barrier penetration capability are probably a BAD choice for gunfights involving vehicles.

As the FBI document states:


"There is plenty of inaccurate information regarding ballistics/terminal performance disseminated on web forums, even those which are dedicated as LE only."

Let's try to avoid that here at PF...

[DocGKR]

As to the original question, I suspect your confusion is based on the fact that the penetration depths of upset bullets in living tissue are frequently a bit different than those exhibited in properly prepared and calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin. This is often due to the tough, resilient characteristics of the skin on the exit side of the body. This strong, flexible skin can have the same resistance to bullet passage as four inches of muscle and often causes bullets to end their path just under the skin at the anticipated exit point rather than exiting, as would be expected based on the deeper penetration results seen in ordnance gelatin. This is why on autopsy, recovered bullets are frequently found just under the exit side skin or in the victims clothing.

In most properly conducted post-mortem evaluations, there is indeed a rough 1:1 ratio between gel and torso tissue––for example, Gene Wolberg's study of nearly 150 SDPD OIS incidents showed the majority of the 9mm 147 gr bullets fired by officers had penetrated about 13" and expanded between 0.60 to 0.62 inches in both human tissue and 10% ordnance gelatin. While there was a greater range of results in human tissue than in gel, the averages where nearly identical. Several other agencies with strong, scientifically based ammunition terminal performance testing programs have conducted similar reviews of their shooting incidents with much the same results––there is an extremely strong correlation between properly conducted and interpreted 10% ordnance gelatin laboratory studies and the physiological effects of projectiles in actual shooting incidents. You just have to understand the anatomy and variables involved while making an evaluation.

[Unobtanium]

As to the original question, I suspect your confusion is based on the fact that the penetration depths of upset bullets in living tissue are frequently a bit different than those exhibited in properly prepared and calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin. This is often due to the tough, resilient characteristics of the skin on the exit side of the body. This strong, flexible skin can have the same resistance to bullet passage as four inches of muscle and often causes bullets to end their path just under the skin at the anticipated exit point rather than exiting, as would be expected based on the deeper penetration results seen in ordnance gelatin. This is why on autopsy, recovered bullets are frequently found just under the exit side skin or in the victims clothing.

In most properly conducted post-mortem evaluations, there is indeed a rough 1:1 ratio between gel and torso tissue––for example, Gene Wolberg's study of nearly 150 SDPD OIS incidents showed the majority of the 9mm 147 gr bullets fired by officers had penetrated about 13" and expanded between 0.60 to 0.62 inches in both human tissue and 10% ordnance gelatin. While there was a greater range of results in human tissue than in gel, the averages where nearly identical. Several other agencies with strong, scientifically based ammunition terminal performance testing programs have conducted similar reviews of their shooting incidents with much the same results––there is an extremely strong correlation between properly conducted and interpreted 10% ordnance gelatin laboratory studies and the physiological effects of projectiles in actual shooting incidents. You just have to understand the anatomy and variables involved while making an evaluation.

Thanks! I had known about the skin on the posterior trunk in the case of exits, but wondered if the skin on the anterior also played a role, especially with bullets which yaw, as I would presume thicker/harder mediums result in quicker yaw cycles than would gel.

I have seen that pdf about the 18 year old and knew the initial conclusions were bunk, as the pathologist who analyzed the body had no clue about GSW's, apparently. However, I was unaware that some rounds struck a barrier, and was indeed baffled at the lack of efficacy of the 75gr T2's.

That said, and to piggy back onto this topic, have you seen any LE agencies issuing the T556TNB1 loading in response to barriers/penetration concerns? ATK is loading it in white boxes with that part number "for LE sales", and continues to do so. Since it's not typically sold to civilians (although easily bought, kindof like TAP 5.56 ammo), and the military gets it as AB49 in brown boxes...SOMEONE must be using it? How's that working out?

[DocGKR]

I am baffled why anyone not in the military would issue that ammo in its current non-bonded format (in contrast to the superb bonded TOTM version) given the ready availability of much better bonded projectiles like 55 & 62 gr TBBC, 64 gr Nosler bonded (as used in Win FBI load), 62 gr CLUB, 62/64 gr Gold Dot & Fusion, 75 gr Scirocco, or even the monolithic copper projectiles like TSX and GMX.

Skin on entrance does not change things much, as the projectile is still point forward and efficiently punches through.

[Paul]

But, but, but over-penetration, what about the mothers carrying their babies in the background. We all know it's safer to have a high round count (and high miss count) gun fight with less effective ammo, than getting the job done fast and have a couple bullets passing through a bad guy.


What happened to them? Did they strike barriers or extended extremities first? Otherwise, I fail to see how they could fail to significantly penetrate on the target described. He looked relatively "normal" medically.

Drug test only can only find what they are looking for. The time of the shooting, 2006, "bath salts" and other designer drugs were starting to show back up as efforts to cut down on home cooked meth were ramping up. I'm not saying what the case is, but without knowing how comprehensive the tox screen was, it's impossible to know. There are some people that with the right psych disorders and a little marijuana that can go absolutely berserk. The guy could have been a true believer and/or he could have just been juiced up. At the end of the day it doesn't really matter, however he managed to get into his state of mind the problem was the same.


Yet routinely, I read of expended ammunition being recovered from 130# crack fiend's clothing after OIS's.

It's not uncommon for crack heads to wear every piece of clothing they own. A crackhead wearing 2 jackets, 3 sweat shirts, and 4 or 5 t-shirts is not uncommon in the summer. We're talking inches of material, it's basically body armor.

[Unobtanium]

I am baffled why anyone not in the military would issue that ammo in its current non-bonded format (in contrast to the superb bonded TOTM version) given the ready availability of much better bonded projectiles like 55 & 62 gr TBBC, 64 gr Nosler bonded (as used in Win FBI load), 62 gr CLUB, 62/64 gr Gold Dot & Fusion, 75 gr Scirocco, or even the monolithic copper projectiles like TSX and GMX.

Skin on entrance does not change things much, as the projectile is still point forward and efficiently punches through.

I understand, but nevertheless, they continue to pump it out, and SOMEONE has to be buying it...who? It's not on civ. legal sites except one, and the military has their own boxes (brown) and part number (A49). So...who's buying enough to make it worth-while to re-box and have another part number in the system?

[Unobtanium]

But, but, but over-penetration, what about the mothers carrying their babies in the background. We all know it's safer to have a high round count (and high miss count) gun fight with less effective ammo, than getting the job done fast and have a couple bullets passing through a bad guy.



Drug test only can only find what they are looking for. The time of the shooting, 2006, "bath salts" and other designer drugs were starting to show back up as efforts to cut down on home cooked meth were ramping up. I'm not saying what the case is, but without knowing how comprehensive the tox screen was, it's impossible to know. There are some people that with the right psych disorders and a little marijuana that can go absolutely berserk. The guy could have been a true believer and/or he could have just been juiced up. At the end of the day it doesn't really matter, however he managed to get into his state of mind the problem was the same.



It's not uncommon for crack heads to wear every piece of clothing they own. A crackhead wearing 2 jackets, 3 sweat shirts, and 4 or 5 t-shirts is not uncommon in the summer. We're talking inches of material, it's basically body armor.

Really? I used to work with a bunch of felons and am aware of some of their habits (carry ALL their money on them. You want change for $100? Ask a thug. He'll ask how many 20's or a 50 or whatever you want if he's feeling generous), etc. but that's a new one. Maybe it's regional?

[Chuck Haggard]

I had occasion to talk directly with some folks involved in that fight and the investigation afterwards.

It was a running gunfight in and around parked cars. The bad guy was rather dedicated to what he was trying to do. Note that ugly .223 hit to his foot did not shut him down one bit (that had to hurt like hell), and he was still shooting back after the .40 bullet broke his humerus. The bad guy didn't know how to reload one handed, this brought the gunfight to a halt, however he was stilling fighting afterwards, fought going into cuffs, fought the ambulance crew, kept fighting until he bled out.

Tox screen was negative. Could be designer drugs, my info is this was just a case of a serious asshole who was angry, wasn't going back to prison, and decided to kill responding officers. Note similar dynamics with Platt and Matix in the Miami/FBI fight

[Chuck Haggard]

Ref gel penetration;

Our issued duty load at my job is the 124gr +P Gold Dot, a well known and tested round. That bullet exhibits penetration into the 15" range in heavy clothing or 4LD testing, and we have established that this would appear to be well more than needed for shooting bad people. In almost every OIS we had that round either stuck under the skin on exit, or was caught in the suspect's clothing, or popped out and dropped to the ground inside of ten feet.

Just one example of observation of a large sample.

[Beat Trash]

I had occasion to talk directly with some folks involved in that fight and the investigation afterwards.

It was a running gunfight in and around parked cars. The bad guy was rather dedicated to what he was trying to do. Note that ugly .223 hit to his foot did not shut him down one bit (that had to hurt like hell), and he was still shooting back after the .40 bullet broke his humerus. The bad guy didn't know how to reload one handed, this brought the gunfight to a halt, however he was stilling fighting afterwards, fought going into cuffs, fought the ambulance crew, kept fighting until he bled out.

Tox screen was negative. Could be designer drugs, my info is this was just a case of a serious asshole who was angry, wasn't going back to prison, and decided to kill responding officers. Note similar dynamics with Platt and Matix in the Miami/FBI fight

It is easy to get caught up in the quest for that "magic bullet" and spend hours pouring over minute differences in data and performance of various loads. There is logic and wisdom in trying to obtain the best ammunition and weapons available to you and your officers. But this will not compensate for a lack of shot placement and timely deployment of good tactics.

In the end, some people just require "more killing" than others. The secret is to want to stay alive more than they want to kill you.

[DocGKR]

Yup.

Pick a load with acceptable terminal performance.

Then STOP worrying about ammo.

Spend all additional time, effort, and resources on training!!!

[Unobtanium]

Yup.

Pick a load with acceptable terminal performance.

Then STOP worrying about ammo.

Spend all additional time, effort, and resources on training!!!
Agreed! My problem? Worry is free, ammo and training are $$.
I am scheduled for vtac nightfighter later this year and a few months ago took frank proctor performance pistol. I try hard to get at least one quality course plus independent range time as allows in per year.

[DocGKR]

Dry fire practice is also free...

[Beat Trash]

There you go again, applying logic...

[Unobtanium]

Dry fire practice is also free...

I bought a couple of decent airsoft pistols for indoor practice as well. Thoughts?

[DocGKR]

Works great--especially for draw and first shot, as well as movement.

[Unobtanium]

Works great--especially for draw and first shot, as well as movement.

I need to send one to get a holster made for it so I can practice draw. I've mainly used it for transitions etc. It's very accurate for what it is.

[dudley0]

I bought an airsoft replica of my EDC. Got it shortly after a FoF class I took last year.

Works great for close up. I think it helped me with draw from concealment as well as first shot.

[Unobtanium]

I bought an airsoft replica of my EDC. Got it shortly after a FoF class I took last year.

Works great for close up. I think it helped me with draw from concealment as well as first shot.

I just got a generic one. I have an M&P9F. Do they make something close enough to that to mount my X300U on and have my holster retain it? (Kydex moulded for retention with light)

[dudley0]

Mine is a WE brand. M&P FS. Gas blow back, which helps with failure drills.

I use it in the same holsters that I carry in. It has a rail that I put a light on to test... but mounted lights aren't for me.

It has removable sights as well, but I just painted the orange dot on the front to replicate my SW-501s. I ended up buying the model that has a black rail (which is metal) and a blue body. That helps to avoid any problems with grabbing it over my EDC.

[TiroFijo]

Yup.

Pick a load with acceptable terminal performance.

Then STOP worrying about ammo.

Spend all additional time, effort, and resources on training!!!

This should be on a big poster in a wall everywhere people train for self defense...

[j.d.allen]

This is often due to the tough, resilient characteristics of the skin on the exit side of the body. This strong, flexible skin can have the same resistance to bullet passage as four inches of muscle and often causes bullets to end their path just under the skin at the anticipated exit point rather than exiting, as would be expected based on the deeper penetration results seen in ordnance gelatin. This is why on autopsy, recovered bullets are frequently found just under the exit side skin or in the victims clothing.

Interesting. So knowing this, is there any reason to prefer a round that shows say, 15 to 16 inches of penetration in gel over one that shows 12.5 inches? If I understand you correctly they are both going to penetrate similarly in a body...?

[texasaggie2005]

Interesting. So knowing this, is there any reason to prefer a round that shows say, 15 to 16 inches of penetration in gel over one that shows 12.5 inches? If I understand you correctly they are both going to penetrate similarly in a body...?

Wouldn't you want the bullet to exit, to help with the bleed out?

[Chuck Haggard]

I've had occasion to be up against some very large mammals in my time as a cop. You think everything if hunky-dory, then you run into a 6'8 360 pound dude.
One night in a raid brief we were told the target was a dude that sized, that had cut someone up with a machete, and had been doing meth. We carried Winchester 55gr SP as our issued carbine load back then. I quietly grabbed a magazine of green tip out of my bag on the way to the truck before we did that hit.

Also, the bullet may have to get through an arm in order to get through the bad guy's torso. Air gun yourself into an iso shooting stance, now notice how much angled forearm an incoming bullet would have to get through to hit you in the torso.

[El Cid]

I quietly grabbed a magazine of green tip out of my bag on the way to the truck before we did that hit.


I know several LEO's in my AO, from a variety of agencies who keep a spare mag full of green tip just in case. Very prudent in my opinion.

[Unobtanium]

I know several LEO's in my AO, from a variety of agencies who keep a spare mag full of green tip just in case. Very prudent in my opinion.

I've shot stuff with m855 before. Cars and wood and cinder blocks and meat. Penetration is not it's forte. I'd go with a tsx.

[DocGKR]

Hence the advantage of using a barrier blind load with adequate penetration as a standard duty load: http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4344-5-56-mm-Duty-Loads

[Unobtanium]

Hence the advantage of using a barrier blind load with adequate penetration as a standard duty load: http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4344-5-56-mm-Duty-Loads

Agreed. My hang up is the neck sealant. None of the readily available ones are sealed. If a washing machine kills the powder, what about prolonged humidity or rain while hunting etc? I get that it's not a huge issue,or is it, as you constantly recommend sealed loads when the specific question is asked? Can someone make a tsx bullet with sealant besides the military? Please?

[Chuck Haggard]

My story was in the days before any of the barrier blind rounds were being made. My choices to shoot a dude the size of a black bear was between 55gr SP, 55gr ball and green tip.

If I had Tac Bonded or DPX/TSX back then you bet your ass I woulda used it.

[Unobtanium]

My story was in the days before any of the barrier blind rounds were being made. My choices to shoot a dude the size of a black bear was between 55gr SP, 55gr ball and green tip.

If I had Tac Bonded or DPX/TSX back then you bet your ass I woulda used it.
understood. I was referring to the individual who said it was current practice.

[Chuck Haggard]

understood. I was referring to the individual who said it was current practice.

To this day I know guys stuck with agency issued ammo such as 55gr SP or 60gr TAP, who also may or may not have extra mags of green tip in their go bags just in case.

Optimal? No. Better than nothing? Very.

[Sigfan26]

To this day I know guys stuck with agency issued ammo such as 55gr SP or 60gr TAP, who also may or may not have extra mags of green tip in their go bags just in case.

Optimal? No. Better than nothing? Very.

Advantage of green tip in those cases?:"I guess my training mags got mixed in with my go bag... Oops". Same can't be said with a few mags of Trophy Bonded Bear Claw.

[Chuck Haggard]

Advantage of green tip in those cases?:"I guess my training mags got mixed in with my go bag... Oops". Same can't be said with a few mags of Trophy Bonded Bear Claw.

There are a lot of broke young coppers trying to pay bills and have a family. One can buy M913 and M855 at Wal Mart around here, use it for practice, and keep their practice magazines handy just in case, you know, practice breaks out somewhere.

One would have to search, and find in stock, bonded ammo on the internets, and then pay $1 to $1.50 per round, as opposed to .30 cents or so for the over the counter stuff.

[DocGKR]

I frequently forgot to remove the dozen or so GI AR15 mags stuffed with M193 practice ammo from my call-out bag before going on shift....

[Chuck Haggard]

I frequently forgot to remove the dozen or so GI AR15 mags stuffed with M193 practice ammo from my call-out bag before going on shift....

I hate when that happens.

Although, I was lucky to have keys to the range, and a take-home car. My go to the range gear was always in the trunk. Also had an ammo can of 9mm