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Mr_White
01-30-2015, 04:03 PM
Week 97: Grip 300

Results may be posted until February 28th, 2015.

For this drill, all you need is your holstered pistol – no ammo, target, or safe direction is required (for purposes of the drill, the pistol will remain holstered.)

When working for a faster draw, one of the areas where many people have an opportunity for gains is in more efficiently acquiring a master grip on the pistol. This is a very simple drill for use in working to acquire that master grip reliably and at the full speed you can move.

The drill is simply to acquire master grip on your holstered pistol, 300 times. Vary your hand start positions – hands at sides, hands at high torso, fence position, hands at surrender, hands straight in the air, hands straight out to the sides, hands on your head, hands touching a wall, hands in pockets, hands holding an object that must be dropped or thrown – there are endless possibilities. Trying several start positions is recommended.

It's not important that you do it exactly 300 times. Do more or do less as you prefer.

What is important: Explode into motion. Get moving as abruptly as you can and drive your hand to the gun at the full speed you can move. Acquire a clean and correct master grip. When you make a mistake, try to notice what you did wrong and pay attention to correcting it. If your holster has any retention devices, disengage them as part of acquiring master grip.

Please report the gun, holster, and concealment used (if any, concealment is optional), start positions you worked, and anything you noticed during the drill.

Using a timer is optional. If you have a timer and wish to use it so that you are reacting to an audible signal, go ahead. This part is optional because some people don't have timers and using a timer will also make the drill take much longer.

Training with firearms is an inherently dangerous activity. Be sure to follow all safety protocols when using firearms or practicing these drills. These drills are provided for information purposes only. Use at your own risk.

SLG
02-01-2015, 06:37 PM
Good practice. The only issue I see is that with a timed/scored live drill, you either get the results or not. With a drill like this, everyone has a different idea of what the right way to draw is, and this drill does not show you why you might want to do it differently based on your "score".

Edited to add: didn't mean to come across as critical of the practice, just that the feedback isn't there the way it is with other drills.

YVK
02-01-2015, 09:33 PM
Kudos, Mr_White, for bringing dry fire to the DOW.

I did it over a period of three days. 350+ grips doesn't seem like a lot, but it is if you're doing it thoughtfully. It also beats my hands.

P30, modded Shaggy, SME and strong side Blade Tech were used, first two concealed and last one mostly open. I did it with and without a timer. For a timed drill, a par time of 0.4 seconds was used, whether concealed or not. If I botched a timed drill, next five were done without a timer. I couldn't reliably meet that par time drawing AIWB from a surrender position. Surrender with 180 degree turn, I couldn't do it too: at that par, I was either turning or gripping but not both, and I then stopped using a timer for this particular draw.
There was a tendency to short stroke the cover garment on AIWB and there is absolutely no reason why that should happen. Easy fix though.
With an open draw, I concentrated as much on my support hand as on my strong hand.
I felt that it was important to throw in on occasional draw to be sure I was not cheating that grip.
I paid a special attention to getting the same grip whether drawing strong side and AIWB, and for about 50 iterations I had both Shaggy and Blade Tech on, alternating the position. In retrospect, I kind of regret using just one pistol for that part :).

olstyn
02-01-2015, 10:14 PM
for about 50 iterations I had both Shaggy and Blade Tech on, alternating the position. In retrospect, I kind of regret using just one pistol for that part :).

I've been thinking about this exercise, and was considering doing something similar, albeit with an IWB (Crossbreed Supertuck [yeah, I know, it's not the best]) and an OWB (CCC TUF). I came to the conclusion that doing it that way wouldn't be valid for me because the holsters occupy roughly the same spot on the belt, and therefore the CBST would push the TUF farther from my body than it would normally sit. I guess I'll have to split it into two sessions, one with each holster. I may even make it 3 sessions, the third being putting the IWB hooks on the TUF and using it that way, which will probably make for an even better comparison to the CBST, as it's more apples to apples that way.

Clobbersaurus
02-01-2015, 10:18 PM
Gun: Girsan Regard Compact 9mm
Holster: Blade-Tech OWB
Concealment garb: Stupid looking vest.

I just finished this drill. I specifically didn't use my timer as I wanted to focus on how I establish my grip. I was pleasantly surprised by the results. I should mention that I also just did a bunch of micro drills as instructed in Stoeger's dry fire book, and one of them was a drill to establish your master grip (.4 sec PAR) so that drill was fresh in my mind for reference.

For this exercise I established my master grip stationary, moving, seated, hands at my sides, hands behind my back, hands at surrender, going up stairs, going down stairs, backed into a corner, looking into a mirror, hands straight out at sides, watching the football game, and stirring dinner in the pot.

100 reps into the drill I realized I wasn't doing anything with my support hand. It was just hanging there like a limp dick doing nothing. WTF?? With my method of concealment I have to clear cover with my strong hand and then establish my master grip. My support hand should be moving at the same time, coming to just below my right pec, waiting to meet my strong hand as it clears the holster. But I wasn't doing that, so I started burst into motion with both hands and tried focus on what both hand were doing and why.

As I worked through this drill I noticed that though my master grip was very consistent, my support hand was woefully inconsistent in my placement and movement. It's just something I did and never really put much thought into. I've had problems establishing a clean two handed grip with my Beretta's, due to improper support hand placement as I draw, and I'm now wondering if my inconsistency with my support hand, as I'm establishing my master grip, may be the issue.

Interesting drill Mr. White, thanks for posting. I have Lots of stuff to take away and chew on here.

GJM
02-01-2015, 10:21 PM
A nice thing about hanging out in rural areas, is it possible to practice this drill, acquiring the grip, many times daily. Gives experience with different cover garments, gloves, range of temperatures, etc.

Chuck Haggard
02-02-2015, 10:01 AM
I'm running this, and badly need to. I will be back in uniform doing some road patrol again soon, and I haven't been in uniform wearing a duty holster since Dec 18th.

Running a Safariland 6360 quickly and efficiently means I need to get back to getting work in.

Range1
02-02-2015, 11:42 AM
Switched between Glock 23 gen 4 in a Safariland ALS holster and a Glock 34 in a Comptac owb.
Everything from concealment wearing a hiking/photographer's vest.

Very good exercise that really helps to hone the basics. I felt like I was playing "Whack-a-Mole" much of the time as I would realize one problem I needed to work on then something else would pop up. When I would work that one another one would pop up and so on. Probably is an indication I need to work on my concentration even more. Also kept realizing I was tensing up and that caused problems of course.

These drills are excellent and a good way to make me do the dry fire I always knew I should but was not making myself complete. Have definitely identified some bad habits I have developed over time that I will be working to correct.

Hopefully will get to the range soon for the Accuracy Efficiency Rating drill.

Jared
02-02-2015, 12:37 PM
Broken up in two sessions between last night and this morning.

Holster: JMCK IWB version 2
Gun: Beretta 92FS
Belt: Volund Gear Works with Cobra buckle
Concealment: Closed front (T-shirt)

I'm trying to get more acclimated to this holster and the steeper angle it has, so this was a very well timed drill for me. Started off working with the shirt tucked in and the gun butt exposed last night, then let the t-shirt cover the gun today.

I didn't use a timer on this yet since, again, I'm working with a different holster than I'm used to and just wanted to really focus on getting the grip right before adding the time element. I also changed it a bit by doing a full presentation to a sight picture every tenth rep to verify that I was indeed getting my hand on the gun correctly.

As with the previous Press 600 dry fire drill, I really liked this one and felt like I got a good deal out of it. It's also going into my regular dry fire routine.

I too am glad that there are dry drills in DOTW now. The conditions outside here, right now, just aren't conducive to a good live fire session, and I'm always on the lookout for good new dry drills to do.

Mr_White
02-02-2015, 03:54 PM
Good practice. The only issue I see is that with a timed/scored live drill, you either get the results or not. With a drill like this, everyone has a different idea of what the right way to draw is, and this drill does not show you why you might want to do it differently based on your "score".

Edited to add: didn't mean to come across as critical of the practice, just that the feedback isn't there the way it is with other drills.

I think that comment is entirely fair and correct. That is one of the essential challenges of any dry drill. In this one, the practitioner must already know by feel what their master grip should be, must pay attention and be aware so they notice what they are doing, and disciplined so they make the practice itself useful.

-------

I'm very happy some people are trying these dry drills and enjoying them. This one is definitely in the 'micro-drill' category. Like GJM, I've made use of this drill when I've been in a place and time where I maybe can't be drawing the gun or doing dry practice, but have a private place where I can repeatedly execute count 1 of the draw.

I can see from a comment or two about the support hand that I didn't define that part of the drill well at all. My intention was that the drill encompass many reps of count 1 of the draw – focusing on master grip acquisition, but whatever you personally do with your support hand during count 1 should also be done in the Grip 300 drill. Just saying that to clarify - I think people are pretty much doing that already.

Clusterfrack
02-02-2015, 09:04 PM
Another good drill.

Gun: G4 Glock 19
Holster: JMCK AIWB with homemade pillow/wedge
Belt: Wilderness FF 1.25"
Concealment: synthetic t-shirt

Observations:

Clearing the garment was key to a fast, consistent grip
Belt tension was important. Too tight and it was difficult to acquire a good grip. Too loose and the grip angle was not consistent
My tummy is red from getting slapped 300 times :p

SLG
02-02-2015, 09:10 PM
I think that comment is entirely fair and correct. That is one of the essential challenges of any dry drill. In this one, the practitioner must already know by feel what their master grip should be, must pay attention and be aware so they notice what they are doing, and disciplined so they make the practice itself useful.


I talked about this with Todd a bit today, and I'm glad my comment was taken the way it was intended. This is an excellent drill to do, no doubt. Feedback with live fire drills can be target based or timer based, or both, but still not tell you if you are "doing it correctly", so in that sense, this drill is no different from a live fire drill. Either way, an excellent thing to practice.

45dotACP
02-02-2015, 10:45 PM
Gun & Gear:
-Caspian Government Model 1911
-CCC Uno IWB holster
-Closed front garment
-5.11 dress belt

Drill:
-Didn't get to do all 300 before the middle finger got a blister that wore through at rep 150

Observations:
-I can conceal a full sized 1911 at the 3:00 position under a fairly light garment.
-Getting a grip on a full sized gun is much faster than getting a grip on a subcompact pistol or a J-frame
-I prefer catching the hem of the concealment garment and pulling up, but if I crush the shirt, I prefer to do so at the belt line where I can get a better handful of my shirt
-I prefer to pull up and across on the concealment garment so I don't get the gun or my hands tangled in my garment.
-I have soft girly hands because I wash/moisturize them a ton of times at work to prevent infections and cracking of the skin (and therefore infections). Sucks like hell but developing callouses just isn't gonna happen, and neither is catching C. diff

Mr_White
02-11-2015, 12:42 PM
Did it, broken up over a few sessions. Used Gen3 Glock 34, concealed under a polo shirt in a Keeper. I worked a variety of start positions - hands at sides, hands high torso, hands at surrender/opportunity, hands straight up, hands straight out, hands on head, hands touching a counter, and hands touching a wall.

Observations: for me, I don't feel any usefulness to slowing down in acquiring master grip. My feeling is that I change the motion when I change the speed and then get more inconsistency. So full speed all the way I think is most relevant for me. Forming the little gun shape with my hand and driving it full speed and with some force I think gets me the most consistent grip and avoiding the little bit of finger lift that Todd keenly observed from a video we discussed in another thread. Grip 300 was a good drill to use to work on getting rid of that.

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7377/16435493552_af89042445_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/r3mcCu)20150203_082900 (https://flic.kr/p/r3mcCu) by OrigamiAK (https://www.flickr.com/people/52790396@N08/), on Flickr

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8576/15813911284_4cf577da63_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/q6qqSQ)20150203_082839 (https://flic.kr/p/q6qqSQ) by OrigamiAK (https://www.flickr.com/people/52790396@N08/), on Flickr

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7400/15813907064_83f2e529ae_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/q6qpC5)20150203_083220 (https://flic.kr/p/q6qpC5) by OrigamiAK (https://www.flickr.com/people/52790396@N08/), on Flickr

luckyman
02-11-2015, 02:05 PM
Just realized I did this but didn't post . . .

Gun(s): G19 chopped to 26 length; S&W Shield
Holster: JMCK AIWB
Belt: Volund Gearworks Atlas
Concealment: t-shirt for about 3/4 of the draws; no concealment for the rest.

Did this over 2 sessions; also split it up with 200 G19 and 100 Shield reps. In addition, did a full draw every 7-10 reps to confirm everything was integrating together.


General hardware notes:
Based on how much I like my JMCK shield holster with fixed soft loops, I recently switched my G19 holster from the kydex split loop to the fixed soft loops. I'm surprised at all the trickle-down impacts that had. I had gone away from the Volund belt to a Wilderness tactical 5-stitch, mainly based on how hard the Volund was to get through the split kydex loop. With the fixed soft loops, I found the Wilderness belt didn't work at all. There was too much vertical displacement right next to the buckle, with the part of the belt that is made flexible enough to bend 180 degrees through the buckle. Whereas the Volund belt goes on pretty easy with the soft loops.
I thought I was all done on that subject. What I found due to this DOTW session is while I'm good with a regular G19 (which is away right now getting worked on) and good with a Shield, with the chopped G19 I'm running my middle finger into the Volund belt getting my master grip. It doesn't seem to have any negative consequences other than being a little bit distracting, Until I get up at about 75 draws. But after that the wear and tear on my finger starts to detract from getting a good grip. Not sure where I'm going to go on this. I'm liking the shield so well I might just put the chopped G19 on the "it seemed like a good idea at the time" list.

JAD
02-11-2015, 06:16 PM
'Retro' .45 Lightweight Commander, 5 Shot SME concealed with a sweater. Starts included surrender, seated, turn / pivot, prone, supine, hands and knees, and buckled in while driving. I tried moving the concealment both with my strong and support hands. I occasionally used a timer with an 0.4 second par to get a feel for how fast some starts were.

Really good drill, learned a ton. I do not generally have a hard time getting a master grip with most of my pistols; I worked it really, really hard in my ute (after pitching a G19 downrange at Gunsite). As a single action guy my priorities are to get a hard wrap with my social finger and to get my thumb on top of the safety. A problem peculiar to this particular gun is the absence of a beaver tail. Normally I drive straight down onto the frame, but this didn't always work with the retro. The web of my hand would get on top of the grip safety tang and stick (see pics of normal and f'd up grip)http://pistol-forum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3105&stc=1http://pistol-forum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3106&stc=1, which hurts like hell with full patch .45. This drill reminded me that I have to sweep into the grip from the mainspring. With that change in motion I'm 100% in this regard, which would save a lot of pain at the range (I'm so allergic to shuffling my grip that I will shoot a whole string even in practice with the tang banging my knuckles bloody). I resolve to do a mini version of this second thing after my cold test on all future range visits.

Messing around in the car reminded me that for me AIWB is weakest in this regard. Strong side I can clear cover and get to the gun much more reliably. On the other hand AIWB felt very secure in the prone and submissive starts -- I felt like I had a lot more control of the gun.

I have a strong desire to change to a one-handed clearance of cover, but it's very hard for me to accept the extra 0.3-4 seconds that seems to add. At least with this garment and holster it seemed reliable, but I found myself leaning back (as if I was trying to hold the sweater up on my chest). Vigorousness is the answer, but I'm not sure I've fully bought in yet.

Rick Finsta
02-11-2015, 10:13 PM
I am getting used to the ALS system and I find that I need to pull the pistol out of the holster slightly to ensure I got a master grip that disables the retention mechanism.

M&P 9FS
Safarliand 6377

Did 30 reps today, will be doing about that per day until I'm done. Mixed it in with other dry practice.

40Green
02-16-2015, 11:57 AM
Did using an HKP2000 w/x300 in duty gear-Safariland 6365 and concealment.
The concealment was the biggest challenge, don't do it a whole lot. Worked on clearing my shirt and getting the right grip, not just any old grip. Also used with transitions from rifle to pistol. Made me get the rifle out of the way and grip the pistol at the same time.

Corey
02-20-2015, 02:11 PM
M&P9FS in Blade Tech idpa holster. I did some unconcealed and some open front concealment from a variety of start positions. It is definitely helping me get more consistent with my draw. I am going to continue to work on this one and see what it does for my times on the 3x5 part of the FAST (my weakest area).

EricM
02-27-2015, 10:01 AM
Split this up into a few sessions and passed 300 reps this morning. G19 and G17 concealed AIWB under T-shirt. Varied start positions for hands including at surrender, in a fence, and relaxed at sides...also different body positions such as standing, sitting, and walking forwards or backwards. Didn't get much variation of cover garment in, need to do that in the future...a T-shirt or polo covers the vast majority of my wardrobe, but considering the season some work with a coat would definitely be a good idea. Also need to work on this single handed, as for me this drill was as much about clearing the concealment garment as establishing grip.

This was a good way to kick off the process of refining my draw, I addressed several issues as I recognized them. I had a lot of unnecessary movement of my strong hand/arm. To start with I was bringing my strong hand up way too high before coming down on the gun, almost as if it was following my support hand all the way up as it cleared the shirt and only then moving toward the gun. I've minimized this, taking a more direct path to the gun. Rather than just coming straight down onto the grip I've also started coming more at an angle...I'm still fine tuning this, but it seems like I can move faster this way while maintaining consistency (less chance of the web of my hand being impaled on the beavertail if I come down an inch off).

Lastly this was a weird one but sometimes I was raising my shoulder and rotating my strong arm elbow out and forward when going to the gun (my shoulders are pretty flexible). Imagine drawing from an OWB holster on your hip...as you raise your hand to the gun your arm will bend with your elbow going out to your side...now freeze with your hand on your imaginary gun, lock your elbow and wrist, and pivot at your shoulder until your hand would be in position to draw from an appendix holster. That position is pretty much what I found my arm doing. (I carry around 10:30, lefty.) I don't think I've always done this, I think it just started as I was trying to really push for speed in this drill. I had to slow down for a while to stop myself from doing this, but I've been able to speed back up and am seeing a lot more consistency now. I still find myself raising my shoulder though. Not sure that's really a problem, as it would normally be raised anyway going to the 2 or getting into my shooting stance. Any thoughts on that?

Edit: One final thought, maybe it is a natural tendency to exaggerate motion when suddenly trying to increase speed. When I tried to establish grip more quickly than I ever had before, perhaps I subconsciously recruited additional muscles like in my shoulder that wanted to do something to help, even if it wasn't very useful. In the earlier Press 600 drill, I noticed that I could pull the trigger nearly as fast as I wanted to without disturbing the sights any significant amount, but when I forced myself to go fast enough to throw off the sight picture, what seemed to do it was using far more force than needed to pull the trigger (not just more speed), or sometimes introducing other movement in my hand (like a sympathetic squeeze or twitch in my grip). I bet when I get to working on transitions in a couple weeks I'll find that my initial attempts to speed up result in me overshooting the target. So the lesson is to be sure I'm performing the same, precise, correct movement -- just faster -- without introducing anything extra. Not really a new concept, but a new way of looking at it for me at least.