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View Full Version : Anything I can do to not suck at stage planning?



45dotACP
01-28-2015, 07:00 PM
So, the main problem I have with shooting is the fact that I'm really bad at stage planning. I have been on and off shooting USPSA (I've only shot about six or seven matches) and I'm a solid mid B class shooter according to the classifiers, but my execution of an actual stage that requires actually planning is fairly tragic to watch. My last match I picked up a procedural for not shooting a target, I would skip over a target or two and then come back to get it again..in general just not thinking while shooting. I think it's probably just nerves or jittiriness. Any hints for how to plan/execute a stage without hiccups?

JHC
01-28-2015, 07:05 PM
I got NOTHIN'!!!!

45dotACP
01-28-2015, 07:26 PM
Haha yeah, I kinda figured the advice will most likely be "suck less, shoot better and calm down"

Malamute
01-28-2015, 07:40 PM
I decided not to try to get too hyped up about going fast. I found I shot better and generally quicker by not trying to so much.

NETim
01-28-2015, 07:42 PM
I wish I knew the answer. :confused: I'm always running by targets.

JHC
01-28-2015, 08:00 PM
Haha yeah, I kinda figured the advice will most likely be "suck less, shoot better and calm down"

I guarantee my stage plan . . . errr execution is worse. Every reload is a surprise slide lock reload. Good training but . . . just sayin.

JHC
01-28-2015, 08:00 PM
I wish I knew the answer. :confused: I'm always running by targets.

I do that too. Plus the reload thing.

JHC
01-28-2015, 08:02 PM
And through my eyes in real time I think I'm flying and then I see the vid.

"And there's Uncle Joe he's a movin kinda slow . . . "

MD7305
01-28-2015, 08:25 PM
As a novice, I try to watch the better guys in my squad. Not necessarily to copy them but to see what they do and kinda of reverse engineer why they might have chosen that route over another. I'm not really competive due to my infrequent chances to compete but I find most guys are willing to give you some insight and pointers at local matches.

ToddG
01-28-2015, 08:42 PM
Most competitors are usually pretty happy (some might say proud) to help new shooters in the sport. My advice is to watch one of the better guys before it's your turn and then simply ask why he did it the way he did.

Talionis
01-29-2015, 01:40 AM
A marginal plan, executed well, is better than a brilliant plan executed poorly. I think every experienced competitor started out struggling with stage planning and execution (primarily execution). First course of action should be to identify all the targets that you will need to shoot; I walk down range and around obstacles after reading the stage description to make sure I'm not missing one. Next is to plan where you will shoot those targets from. Usually simple is good, don't try to out-strategize the stage planner until you can reliably execute plans you come up with.

Now comes the hard part. Visualize the entire plan over and over in extreme detail. Each target, each step. See the sights settle at the exact spot you want to shoot on each target, see them lift in recoil and settle on the next target. Repeat this visualization several times. If you have prepared properly, you will simply execute the plan without having to devote conscious thought to it when the time comes. If you can do that, you should be able to get through a stage without it all evaporating on the beep.

JHC
01-29-2015, 07:15 AM
And offshoot of Talionis point:

Mr. White took some USPSA training and has posted typically high quality analysis of same; around here somewhere I think. I remember his points about planning for "if all goes just right" this is the smokin' plan vs this is a more conservative plan I'm less likely to F' up.

olstyn
01-29-2015, 10:27 AM
The better shooters at my local club are always pacing off things on field courses to determine the most efficient path. Less steps = less time. Since you're having trouble with reloads, really thoroughly KNOW when you're going to do them before you make ready. That, and talk to the people on your squad about your ideas. Discussion helps everybody who participates, and more eyes looking at a problem make it easier to solve. Sure, you're competing against the people on your squad, but they're a subset of all the competitors at the event, and if the 8 or 10 of you work together, you'll have an advantage over the other 40 people, or however many it is.

Talionis
01-29-2015, 10:32 AM
Yup, that is a good point JHC. One can usually tell a less experienced shooter by their stage planning; elaborate plans that require very precise positioning, turning every stage into a memory stage, trying to minimize reloads to the point of engaging low probability steel with the 10th round (in production), all are usually best avoided.

Sometimes the right choice is to game the stage, but the vast majority of the time a simple and straight forward plan that allows you to move and shoot aggressively is the right choice.

Mr_White
01-29-2015, 12:07 PM
Those are some good posts from Talionis.

As JHC said, I did some training with Ben Stoeger and it helped a lot with my stage planning and execution skills. My big takeaway at that time was definitely to quit coming up with the overly sensitive stage plans like Talionis described and instead have simpler, more robust, less shoot-for-the-moon stage plans that could be executed aggressively and without error. I do still find stage planning challenging and I don't think I'm very good at it, but I'm nowhere near as bad as I was when I started shooting USPSA.

What I personally do, like Talionis, is to walk around the stage, making sure to get outside of the shooting areas, and figure out where all the targets are. Then, I figure out the required positions to shoot those targets. Some targets can be engaged from a couple of different spots, and others require you move to a certain place. That's the beginning of the stage plan – figure out where you must physically go in order to shoot all the targets. Then continue building the plan from there. Where do I start, where can I go next, where can I shoot into or out of position or on the move, where do I reload, etc. This all has to be done with your on-demand skill level in mind.

I definitely prefer to squad with more experienced USPSA shooters at big matches, because I frequently copy their stage plan or elements of it. It's not uncommon at all for me to come up with an initial plan, then see another competitor planning something that is obviously better.

But sometimes I come up with a different plan and stick with it. One thing I've heard from some people with pretty mondo perspective and experience in USPSA is that there usually is very little difference between a small handful of pretty good plans. The difference in score comes more from the quality of execution of that plan.

Sometimes, factors influencing a stage plan are obvious to other people, but I just fail to see how one way is better than another. One of the harder aspects of stage planning for me is having specific knowledge of how long it takes me to do the great many highly varied movement and shooting tasks in USPSA. I think this has to come from a lot of match experience and/or doing practice where you set up stages or fragments of stages and run them different ways and figure out for yourself what is really faster and/or more reliable. Uncertainty like this is usually when I copy someone who I think has a good plan.

Once you have the plan figured out, walk through it as many times as you can. Do it more than you think you need to. When other people are socializing during some of the walk-through time, be walking through the stage. If you have the chance, do at least some walk-throughs at full speed. Once walk-throughs are over, and while other people are shooting, visualize the plan as many times as you can. Ideally, you should have the plan nailed down to the point that you can walk through the stage mentally with your eyes closed. Do that many, many times. Try to visualize it in real time.

Make sure you take some deep breaths while you are making ready. If you have ingrained your plan effectively, you can probably run the stage without conscious directed thought. The conscious mind should be detached and observing without judgment, just watching what happens. If you make an error, don't try to change your plan – instead get back on your plan. Just go shoot. Always remember that the heart of shooting USPSA well is to go see every sight picture and call every shot. Go shoot the As!

Failure2Stop
01-29-2015, 05:18 PM
Not in disagreement with anything above, just throwing in my general approach:

1. Count the targets.
The number of targets and minimum number of shots are written on the stage description. If you aren't reading the stage description, you are putting together IKEA furniture without directions. It might come out ok, but it takes a lot less thinking if you read. "Read the Stage Description" should probably be #1, but hopefully you are past that by now. Anyway...knowing how many targets are out there, and where, makes it easier to shoot them all.

2. Work in target groups per position.
Know exactly how many targets (and of what type) you are supposed to be seeing/shooting from each position is easier than a cumulative count.

3. Plan your reloads, and do them on the move.
Flat-footed reloads that are not forced by the stage are to be avoided like a syphilitic ex-girlfriend waving a rabid skunk. Don't get sucked into reloading after every position (except for you poor production shooters), reload when it makes sense with regard to travel distance, if possible. Be careful of reloads when moving toward the support side, as breaking the 180 will ruin the best of plans.

4. Plan for make up-shots.
I plan in 3 shots for swingers, 2 shots per steel, and 1-2 per target array if they are tight shots. This is in regard to the reload (see #3), not that I am definitely going to use those extra shots.

5. Plan your entry and exit.
I don't like looking for where my feet need to be when I stop. I want visual indicators of where I need to be to shoot as many targets as possible without missing a tricky/hidden target. I prefer to leave a position on the widest-open target if the array allows, which lets me get moving without waiting to see steel drop or look for a shot-hole. I like to enter the position shooting at the target that determined my position. Enter the position with the gun ready to shoot, don't wait until you come to a complete stop to bring the gun onto the target.

6. If you can shoot it on the move, shoot it on the move.
Not much else to be said here. If you hit a position that has a deep target that you will be closer to later on, you might want to get closer before losing time on it, and if you're going to be passing that way close, use your time wisely.

7. Don't lock your movement to the box.
Whole lotta people treat the shooting box like it is a path. It isn't, it just tells you where you can shoot from, unless you are shooting IPSC. Don't be afraid of cutting corners.

8. Efficiency wins over spastic jerkiness.
Whole lot of old GMs with bad knees. This is a clue.

9. Know what the targets do.
Stepping into position to take a tight top shot over a no-shoot is suddenly significantly more troublesome when what you thought is a stationary combo turns out to be a bobber behind a no-shoot.

10. Don't Mike. Ever.
Good idea to keep holes out of no-shoots as well.

littlejerry
01-29-2015, 10:46 PM
As a new shooter who is missing(or forgetting) targets you should spend time and effort on stage visualization. For now I'd focus on the simplest plan possible and execute it as cleanly and efficiently as possible.

After having identified the targets and devised a plan I like to walk the stage slowly at first. Sometimes I move to each position, close my eyes, and picture shooting each target. But I always make sure I've stood in each shooting position and gotten a good picture of what I should be seeing when I arrive there.

After I have a good mental picture I like to test entry and exit from any tricky positions. I pay attention to the details like how I place my foot on the wooden fault lines and make sure I can stop with my feet in the right position.

I like to count my rounds as I'm walking the stage verify my reload spots.

But really just try and keep it simple. I think a lot of people obsess over planning nuances that don't matter. They waste their time sweating whether they should shoot the left or right side first instead of just comitting to a plan and focusing on clean execution.

Ideally when you do shoot your mind is on autopilot and you aren't thinking. You are just executing. Thinking takes time and allows you to make poor decisions on the move. Make your decisions ahead of time, commit to them, and follow through with your plan.

QuickMick
02-01-2015, 01:46 PM
In my last IPSC match there was a challenging long course with minimum 32 rounds required. Shooter can start anywhere on a line, engaging a mixture of close, mid-range and long range (20m) grouped evily. I made my stage plan based on the necessity of two reloads (production!). Before my start I heard the voice of my coach "if in doubt, give it one more round, don't risk a miss". I did and completely killed my stage plan as I was forced to reload at the wrong time/place. Post match analysis - stick to your plan, know its drawbacks, focus on your strengths! Also I'm trying to classify targets in easy/risky so I know where to slow down. During walk through I find it very helpful to make a "stage book" in my head, similar to rallye drivers. So by "saying" "....three steps left and stop at the fault line, engage targets from right to left...caution: no-shoot close to the third one.... and so on..." helps me to get a precise scenario in replay like a movie. My coach does it same way, he can predict time he needs for the stage and stage factor rather accurate. That works for me, but it's also something to train for, in terms of mindset and concentration.

joshs
02-01-2015, 02:23 PM
I try to keep a very simple process in mind that gives me as much time during the walk through for visualization of the actual plan rather than spending time planning.

1. Find all the targets.
2. Find the best place (for you) to shoot each target.
3. Find possible places to reload.
4. Taking 2 and 3 into account, create your plan. Avoid anything that requires you to take shots you are not confident taking. The last thing you want during a match is to be subconsciously thinking about missing a target that you aren't confident you can hit. This step should include planning your footwork. For shorter movements where more precision is required, I figure out the exact steps to take, for longer movements, I use a visual reference to begin the next setup.
5. Spend as much time dry running/visualizing your plan as possible. If you want to execute your plan well, you need to take this step seriously. This should as closely match how you intend to shoot the stage as possible. E.g., visualize seeing target spots as you come into a position, what your front sight is going to look like as it overlays the target spot, think about having your gun up and ready to shoot during setups, etc.
6. Execute the plan. I try to visualize my entire plan one last time during LAMR, then clear my thoughts as much as possible. The only thing I think about during stage execution is "visual patience."

Slavex
02-02-2015, 01:25 AM
All of the above with emphasis on visualization. If you can't see it in your minds eye while you're standing there waiting for your turn it's a pretty sure bet you won't be able to execute it once you step up to the start position. You don't want to be thinking about the run while you're doing it, you want to have done before the timer goes beep.

Gio
02-09-2015, 11:38 PM
One thing I would add to the above great advice:

The most important thing to do to cut time off a stage w/ your plan is to eliminate shooting positions. I see way too many newer shooters trying to eliminate reloads by adding a shooting position here or there. You certainly don't want to get caught with a flat footed reload in the middle of a target array, but stopping yourself in full motion to shoot an extra target just to save a reload later in the stage wastes a lot of time. Shoot the targets in the most logical/efficient order, and then figure out where to reload in between positions to make that happen.

Slavex
02-11-2015, 08:17 AM
Also, and this is counter intuitive, pay attention to other new shooters, every now and then they see something the GM's won't. Like a target you can snag if you actually do go into a port, window or door (which you normally would try to avoid at all costs). This can pay into what Givo88 says.

Fourtrax
04-03-2015, 09:50 PM
If you are a shooter that cares, and you must since you ask, then get to the match early.

There is not one SERIOUS shooter getting there late and only using the allotted 5 min. I run stages for a good 30 min to one hour before the match. I get there early and I can tell you from 11 years experience that the shooters at the top are there with me. Spending 10-15 min on the more difficult stages is huge. There are always some that need very little prep, but even an extra 2,3,4 or 5 min on those easy ones before the match pays huge dividends.

Of course when you add a great mental program to this it is even better. Go buy Lanny Bassham's With Winning in Mind.

Good luck.

rob_s
04-04-2015, 08:59 AM
In short, shoot more matches. 6 or 7 matches in and you're barely scratching the surface. There's a lot of good advice above, but it's all probably premature with only a couple of matches under your belt.

Probably the best advice is to watch someone else, someone more experienced than you, shoot the stage but make sure that person is shooting your same division (how a limited shooter shoots a stage is different than how a production shooter does it).

Mike R
04-04-2015, 08:40 PM
There are some great resources for stage breakdown on some of the more gamer-friendly forums but I'm not sure the rules of linking outside of the forum here. Overall, I think visualizing the stage repeatedly, and if necessary, again at load and make ready is the best way to prepare for a stage. The direction you travel in rarely matters beyond personal preference or what will make for more convenient reloads.

Once you are to the point that you are comfortable you can engage all of the targets start looking for opportunities to shoot on the move. Shooting while charging targets, or backing away from targets can save time if you are confident you can safely do so.

At least in the iron sighted divisions match winners don't necessarily shoot the fastest. They often are the ones that spend the least time not shooting.

I occasionally will find a little shortcut, or positioning, that boosts my confidence. When this happens I find it is easier to shoot within my ability rather than shooting to the pace I think I need to shoot and that pays off when the scores come out. As a B class shooter I had a couple of top 12 stage finishes at Limited Nationals due to small elements that gave me confidence that I had the time I needed to score good points. If you haven't read With Winning in Mind by Lanny Bassham I would highly recommend that as well. Often we can plan OK but match pressure builds and we do not execute- that book is great for understanding mental management and executing the plan you have selected.

Bob-C
06-16-2015, 04:32 PM
I've only shot a few club matches and one USPSA all-classifier match, but I do have thoughts on stage planning. I'm sure I'll change my planning approach as I develop but here are the simple points I have to offer for now:


Watch shooters ahead of me shoot the stage. Take mental notes about whether their plan looks efficient or not.
When helping to score/tape/reset targets, I think about what I might have done differently from that last shooter, or the last few shooters. And what would I do the same. My own plan emerges.
When I get a chance after seeing a couple of shooters and seeing the targets close-up, I'll try to do my own fresh thinking about the stage, something different from others. Or, I'll just decide I'll copy a guy if he did it in a way that really makes sense to me.
When I'm in the hole or on deck, I finalize my own plan. I just try to make sure it's a reasonable, efficient plan.


That's the simple approach I currently use -- again, new competitor so take it with a grain of salt.

Failure2Stop
06-17-2015, 12:03 AM
I've only shot a few club matches and one USPSA all-classifier match, but I do have thoughts on stage planning. I'm sure I'll change my planning approach as I develop but here are the simple points I have to offer for now:


Watch shooters ahead of me shoot the stage. Take mental notes about whether their plan looks efficient or not.
When helping to score/tape/reset targets, I think about what I might have done differently from that last shooter, or the last few shooters. And what would I do the same. My own plan emerges.
When I get a chance after seeing a couple of shooters and seeing the targets close-up, I'll try to do my own fresh thinking about the stage, something different from others. Or, I'll just decide I'll copy a guy if he did it in a way that really makes sense to me.
When I'm in the hole or on deck, I finalize my own plan. I just try to make sure it's a reasonable, efficient plan.


That's the simple approach I currently use -- again, new competitor so take it with a grain of salt.
Always a good idea for new competitors to emulate better stage planners.
The issues arise when:
You're the first or second shooter on the stage.
The plan of previous shooters hinges on high level, on demandax accuracy at speed.

Folks tend to learn how to do complex things by first observing, then receiving guidance, then doing, and repeating the cycle. Simply doing what the guy before you did without understanding the "why" won't get you as far as you could.

From Tapatalk:
Jack Leuba
Knight's Armament Company: Military/Govt Product Liaison
F2S Consulting: Director of Shooting Stuff

45dotACP
06-17-2015, 11:44 AM
Shot an IDPA match just yesterday and I discovered something important. DON'T CHANGE PLANS. I stepped up after visualizing my plan and suddenly decided to shoot a stage a different way and totally blew the stage.

Picked up a win on a different stage though, and I came in 4th overall :)

HopetonBrown
06-17-2015, 12:20 PM
There's stage planning in IDPA?

Bob-C
06-17-2015, 12:42 PM
Everyone faces being the first or second shooter on a stage. Most have long since developed the ability to think independently or they probably would not have found their way into the shooting sports. I doubt there is anyone here who is pure monkey-see-monkey-do.

Peally
06-17-2015, 12:49 PM
There's stage planning in IDPA?

Depends. There can be a little "figure out the order to shoot fastest" in IDPA, but not nearly to the degree of a proper USPSA match. I still find myself doing visualizations regardless, you just have fewer options on what plan to initially decide upon.

45dotACP
06-17-2015, 06:23 PM
There's stage planning in IDPA?

Heh, I would have came in first place if not for all the procedural for speed reloads and not staying behind cover. I got flat out MURDERED in the streets.