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View Full Version : Update from IDPA Headquarters, CCP Division Wins



cclaxton
01-21-2015, 11:58 AM
http://www.mailermailer.com/x?function=view&c=167112850q-f39e6f50%2a1103123d-f269efdd
I voted for optic.
Cody

Edwin
01-21-2015, 12:33 PM
I wanted compact optics. I see the trend of the G19 with RDS and can only imagine that most people will be doing that eventually.

Peally
01-21-2015, 01:49 PM
Give it time, I think it's safe to assume they'll eventually have both (how long that'll take is another can of worms). I think a lot more people have BUG guns than RDS guns though, it's a smart move on their part to attract not only more average Joes and Janes but the competitive BUG crowd as well.

Clusterfrack
01-21-2015, 02:14 PM
This isn't that exciting to me. The 8 round limit seems pointless.

D.O.A.F.S.
01-21-2015, 02:17 PM
Give it time, I think it's safe to assume they'll eventually have both (how long that'll take is another can of worms). I think a lot more people have BUG guns than RDS guns though, it's a smart move on their part to attract not only more average Joes and Janes but the competitive BUG crowd as well.

I agree, it will be nice to not have to shoot against long barreled guns in ESP with my shield this year. It actually surprises me the amount of people online complaining about this class. I don't know and am curious, do people want the optic class because that is truly what they carry or they just want it to be faster in competition? Unlike the other shooting sports the thing I like about IDPA is you can take a stock pistol, and average gear and have fun and compete.

D.O.A.F.S.
01-21-2015, 02:31 PM
This isn't that exciting to me. The 8 round limit seems pointless.

Equals the playing field, again with my shield in ESP I have to generally do another reload more then the other guys, no big deal but extra time to my score. I think with the popularity of the small single stack carry guns IDPA made a good move..my opinion.

Clusterfrack
01-21-2015, 02:37 PM
Fair point. Totally selfishly, I was hoping for a division that separated G34 size guns from a G19, but didn't make me reload more often. I'm guessing that the 8 round limit is as much about compact 1911s as it is about single stack polymer 9s.

HopetonBrown
01-21-2015, 02:40 PM
It'd be funny to shoot a match with my Kahr PM9.

Chuck Haggard
01-21-2015, 02:43 PM
"based on ESP"

What?

I thought this was going to be a good thing, now I'm thinking it's more retardery.

Sal Picante
01-21-2015, 02:45 PM
It'd be funny to shoot a match with my Kahr PM9.

+1 - FTW!

orionz06
01-21-2015, 02:47 PM
This isn't that exciting to me. The 8 round limit seems pointless.

That's just IDPA things.


The ESP I think is a good thing. At least seems to show some recognition that folks tweak their carry guns but I wonder if it is actually for other reasons.

Mr_White
01-21-2015, 03:34 PM
Unlike the other shooting sports the thing I like about IDPA is you can take a stock pistol, and average gear and have fun and compete.

I think you can do that in at least a few divisions in USPSA too.

Peally
01-21-2015, 03:45 PM
USPSA isn't bad in that regard (production and limited-10 are doable with standard CCW gear plus some mags, at least on a state-or-lower level) but it's also certainly not aimed at that crowd. You don't need a gamer belt and 8 spare mags but they sure don't hurt ;)

I agree that there needs to be round limits, and they're in every other sport aside from open divisions, so I'm not exactly sure why that's disagreeable unless there's something particularly wrong with the number 8.

Mr_White
01-21-2015, 04:03 PM
I think the USPSA vs. IDPA discussion, when it comes to where you can take your stock pistol, average gear, compete and have fun, is mostly a perception issue. It does seem like a lot of people perceive IDPA as suitable and USPSA as unsuitable, but I think you can do that in either one pretty easily.

cclaxton
01-21-2015, 04:15 PM
I think the USPSA vs. IDPA discussion, when it comes to where you can take your stock pistol, average gear, compete and have fun, is mostly a perception issue. It does seem like a lot of people perceive IDPA as suitable and USPSA as unsuitable, but I think you can do that in either one pretty easily.
There are some significant differences, though.
1) DA/SA must be started in DA for production division, which is the division for stock guns.
2) Limited is dominated by high end guns so no play there.
3) Limited 10 has so few competing, it doesn't make much sense
4) The Production Master level shooters often set a very high bar for the ordinary shooter. If even one of them shoots, your percentage is gonna suck. With Time+ scoring, it is easier to see how you performed, and can measure yourself against Overall.
5) I see very few Compact sized polymer framed guns (G19/17, XDm 4.5", S&W M&P 4.5", etc.) in USPSA events, but I see a TON of them in IDPA, even at sanctioned matches. I do see a lot of Glock 34s and XDm 5.25's in USPSA production.

People just don't feel competitive in USPSA with compact guns whereas in IDPA the movement and distances are typically shorter and compact guns are a better fit for the concealed carry emphasis of the sport.

But this thread should not be about USPSA v IDPA. Let's talk about the new division.
Cody

PPGMD
01-21-2015, 04:22 PM
4) The Production Master level shooters often set a very high bar for the ordinary shooter. If even one of them shoots, your percentage is gonna suck. With Time+ scoring, it is easier to see how you performed, and can measure yourself against Overall.

That is because you do suck. The first step is realizing it. And then realize that you shouldn't be comparing yourself to them, but to people in a similar class to you or your perceived skill level if unclassified.

And it is the same if a national champion IDPA shooter shot the match, where as they might be in mid double digits, and you are in triple digits. The only difference is that using percentages you clear see your level of suckage instead of saying I'm only 50 seconds behind them, never mind the fact that is almost 100% more time.

ToddG
01-21-2015, 04:49 PM
It does seem like a lot of people perceive IDPA as suitable and USPSA as unsuitable, but I think you can do that in either one pretty easily.

Can you shoot either sport? Sure. But shooting USPSA from concealment with "carry/non-gamer" gear puts you at a disadvantage compared to your competitors who don't limit themselves that way. You like the challenge but a lot of folks are too heavily ego invested to hamstring themselves at a match.


2) Limited is dominated by high end guns so no play there.

You can play anywhere. And while I may be wrong -- haven't been to a USPSA match in years -- I doubt the really high end guns are being used at the D, C, B, or even A levels (and maybe beyond).


3) Limited 10 has so few competing, it doesn't make much sense

I don't get this. You still go, shoot the match, see your results. If I were going to shoot USPSA again I'd probably go L10 because my pistol has a 10rd capacity and you cannot AIWB in Single Stack.


4) The Production Master level shooters often set a very high bar for the ordinary shooter.

That's because Production M and GM shooters shoot really well. I don't get the issue. Whether you lose to a Prod GM by 80% or you lose to an IDPA M by 80 seconds, losing by a lot is losing by a lot. I prefer the IDPA way primarily because it's easy to get things scored quickly but both systems have merit. At the end of the day, both sports list the #2 guy beneath the #1 guy regardless of how close or distant the #2 guy was to the winner.


5) I see very few Compact sized polymer framed guns (G19/17, XDm 4.5", S&W M&P 4.5", etc.) in USPSA events, but I see a TON of them in IDPA, even at sanctioned matches. I do see a lot of Glock 34s and XDm 5.25's in USPSA production.

Worrying about what other people are shooting is not going to change your score or performance. Plus I think it's pretty generous to call G17 or full size M&P a "compact sized" gun.


But this thread should not be about USPSA v IDPA.

Dude. You can't write a laundry list like that and then tell people it's not an us vs them thread...

Peally
01-21-2015, 04:56 PM
I shoot L10...

HK45 fits there better than production.

Mr_White
01-21-2015, 05:08 PM
Can you shoot either sport? Sure. But shooting USPSA from concealment with "carry/non-gamer" gear puts you at a disadvantage compared to your competitors who don't limit themselves that way. You like the challenge but a lot of folks are too heavily ego invested to hamstring themselves at a match.

I was really only trying to narrowly respond to "Unlike the other shooting sports the thing I like about IDPA is you can take a stock pistol, and average gear and have fun and compete." You can easily do that in USPSA. If he had said 'be competitive to win' or 'feel competitive' I probably wouldn't have even responded. I was being pretty literal. ;)


You can play anywhere. And while I may be wrong -- haven't been to a USPSA match in years -- I doubt the really high end guns are being used at the D, C, B, or even A levels (and maybe beyond).

I may not be the best person to make the observation because I don't know very much about proper Limited guns, but I do see what look to me like proper Limited guns (big and shiny with many bullets and sweet triggers!!!) used at most skill levels in Limited, though I'd agree that there are probably more of them at the higher levels. I do see all levels of competitors use them at least some though. Maybe not D class. I am positive I see them down to C though.

cclaxton
01-21-2015, 05:11 PM
Can you shoot either sport? Sure. But shooting USPSA from concealment with "carry/non-gamer" gear puts you at a disadvantage compared to your competitors who don't limit themselves that way. You like the challenge but a lot of folks are too heavily ego invested to hamstring themselves at a match.

You can play anywhere. And while I may be wrong -- haven't been to a USPSA match in years -- I doubt the really high end guns are being used at the D, C, B, or even A levels (and maybe beyond).

I don't get this. You still go, shoot the match, see your results. If I were going to shoot USPSA again I'd probably go L10 because my pistol has a 10rd capacity and you cannot AIWB in Single Stack.

That's because Production M and GM shooters shoot really well. I don't get the issue. Whether you lose to a Prod GM by 80% or you lose to an IDPA M by 80 seconds, losing by a lot is losing by a lot. I prefer the IDPA way primarily because it's easy to get things scored quickly but both systems have merit. At the end of the day, both sports list the #2 guy beneath the #1 guy regardless of how close or distant the #2 guy was to the winner.

Worrying about what other people are shooting is not going to change your score or performance. Plus I think it's pretty generous to call G17 or full size M&P a "compact sized" gun.

Dude. You can't write a laundry list like that and then tell people it's not an us vs them thread...

I didn't bring up USPSA. I would really like this thread to be about the Compact Carry Division and not USPSA.
I have been shooting USPSA at Fredericksburg and Quantico and Peacemaker (although not recently at Peacemaker since they changed the weekend). In Limited I mostly see STI's, SVI's, Highly customized Glock 34's and XDm 5.25's, a few Para's and CZ Shadows. I tried shooting L10 last year and I would have like 2-3 people in that division, sometimes I was the only one in that division. I settled on Production because I want to shoot my CZ and I want the same rounds that I shoot in IDPA.
I don't disagree that much on the scoring, but I do prefer Time Plus, much easier to compare across divisions.
My only point about the Glock 17/19/4.5"/4.25" guns is that they are popular in IDPA, but not in USPSA. And, you can be more competitive in IDPA with them.

Cody

PPGMD
01-21-2015, 05:18 PM
I don't disagree that much on the scoring, but I do prefer Time Plus, much easier to compare across divisions.

It is having issues, but http://combinedresults.info/ does the combined overall results. And many clubs post them.


My only point about the Glock 17/19/4.5"/4.25" guns is that they are popular in IDPA, but not in USPSA. And, you can be more competitive in IDPA with them.

Not really, going against a Glock 34 is still going against a Glock 34, regardless of sport. Now with CCP you have an ESP Lite for them to compete against each other. But if they were already coming to IDPA why do you need to create a division for it? Instead you could've expanded the sport and brought a who other group of shooters to IDPA.

gtmtnbiker98
01-21-2015, 05:23 PM
More IDPA evangelism.

Chuck Haggard
01-21-2015, 05:27 PM
I have been competing in SSP, and doing rather well BTW, with a Stock G19 (plus sights that is) against guys running things like G34s.

I was hoping this was going to be a sort of G19 and similar guns division, now it looks like the retards that pack micro 1911s got their own division.

cclaxton
01-21-2015, 05:33 PM
I have been competing in SSP, and doing rather well BTW, with a Stock G19 (plus sights that is) against guys running things like G34s.

I was hoping this was going to be a sort of G19 and similar guns division, now it looks like the retards that pack micro 1911s got their own division.
Chuck,
I agree with you...not sure why they did this. But I plan to give it a chance and see what happens. There are some pretty sweet Glock and XDM triggers out there.
Cody

cclaxton
01-21-2015, 05:41 PM
More IDPA evangelism.
Wait....let me check the subforum title....let's see....yep, says IDPA subform.
I posted this information because it is clearly relevant to the IDPA subform and the IDPA sport.

Just to be clear: I am an advocate for all action shooting. Whatever sport you choose is good for improving your safety skills, your shooting skills, your equipment, your mental discipline, and your overall performance. I happen to prefer IDPA. Evangelizing infers that there is some kind of embellishment or inflation of IDPA or a fundamentalist belief. I try to be honest and not embellish. I certainly don't have blind faith in IDPA. I am naturally a positive guy, so that will come through. USPSA has its strengths, too. But this is the IDPA forum.
Cody

45dotACP
01-21-2015, 06:00 PM
I was hoping this was going to be a sort of G19 and similar guns division, now it looks like the retards that pack micro 1911s got their own division.

If they get them to run they might be competitive ;)

As great as the 1911 trigger is, I don't think it's the end all be all that some think it is and I believe that a skilled shooter with a glock, sig 224, or other type compact can be run as well or better. I seem to recall a guy named Ernest whooping up on a ton of guys with 1911's not too far back ;)

Mr_White
01-21-2015, 06:23 PM
If they get them to run they might be competitive ;)

As great as the 1911 trigger is, I don't think it's the end all be all that some think it is and I believe that a skilled shooter with a glock, sig 224, or other type compact can be run as well or better. I seem to recall a guy named Ernest whooping up on a ton of guys with 1911's not too far back ;)

I agree.

I wouldn't dispute that there is a difference in shootability between different sizes of guns and different types of triggers, but I think in a lot of cases the perception of the difference is a lot bigger than the reality. I'm not talking Open gun vs. PM9, but more like 19 vs. 34, stock Glock trigger vs. 1911, etc.

ToddG
01-21-2015, 08:13 PM
More IDPA evangelism.

Discuss issues and not individuals, please.

BigT
01-21-2015, 09:30 PM
"based on ESP"

What?

I thought this was going to be a good thing, now I'm thinking it's more retardery.


The thing is that by basing it on ESP the dude who carries a G19 that's stippled , or even one with a Vickers mag catch , or a M&PC with an apex trigger etc can compete with his carry gun if he wants. If it was based on SSP rules we would limit even more the number of guys competing with something resembling their carry blaster.

Gio
01-21-2015, 10:12 PM
I don't see a whole lot of difference in this division, SSP, CDP, or ESP. It seems like IDPA had a chance to make a really unique division (slide mounted optics), and instead they basically made a new division that is just a combination of rules from the three autoloader divisions they already had.

Also, w/ regard to not having enough shooters in a division at a local match in single stack or limited 10, why not just compare yourself to the overall? If i'm shooting single stack or production at a local, my goal is to win high overall and beat the limited/open shooters or come as close as possible to the top shooters in those divisions. The fun part of a local match is that the scores are usually all posted in one mixed list. You could certainly use your carry gear in limited 10 and compare to the production shooters, or shoot your carry gun in limited AIWB with minor ammo and full magazines and compare to the production scores rather than the limited shooters.

littlejerry
01-21-2015, 10:14 PM
The 8 round limit hurts my brain.

If you want to make a division for compact G19 sized guns, you should let people use G19 sized mags.

But then again the 10 round limit isn't particularly brilliant either...

ToddG
01-21-2015, 10:20 PM
The 10rd limit is to make the game essentially equal for people who live in the many states where 10rd mags are the legal limit.

The 8rd limit is designed to make the "compact" division equal for people who don't want to use a G19 but instead intend to shoot a truly smaller gun. Personally, I think letting the G19 edge its way into the new division makes the division all but meaningless. It also appears to allow 4" (but not 4.25") 1911s play. :cool:

littlejerry
01-21-2015, 10:28 PM
The 10rd limit is to make the game essentially equal for people who live in the many states where 10rd mags are the legal limit.

The 8rd limit is designed to make the "compact" division equal for people who don't want to use a G19 but instead intend to shoot a truly smaller gun. Personally, I think letting the G19 edge its way into the new division makes the division all but meaningless. It also appears to allow 4" (but not 4.25") 1911s play. :cool:

I guess what I meant to say is, why even allow a G19? It is nearly as shootable as a 34. Certainly more shootable than the not-quite-BUG Shield, PPS, XDS, and even 26.

But then again it is difficult to disqualify it on physical metrics...

It feels like the division is for guns which are inherently a compromise but we are trying to ignore or gloss over what that compromise is...

ToddG
01-21-2015, 10:42 PM
littlejerry, agreed 100%. I think allowing the G19 to play is going to make it nothing more than a division where people go to shoot their G19s and avoid having to go up against the big guys. Though my guess is that Vogel may shoot one at the next Nationals just to add that to his trophy collection and to be the first CCP champ.

I wish they'd limited it to guns more like the G26, Shield, PPS, etc. I do think it was smart to make it ESP-like in terms of what mods are allowed.

Personally I would have been much happier to see the optics division created. It would have been genuinely interesting to see who'd show up with a MRDS gun and how they'd fair against the top iron sight shooters.

Lomshek
01-22-2015, 01:09 AM
There are some significant differences, though.
1) DA/SA must be started in DA for production division, which is the division for stock guns.

5) I see very few Compact sized polymer framed guns (G19/17, XDm 4.5", S&W M&P 4.5", etc.) in USPSA events, but I see a TON of them in IDPA, even at sanctioned matches. I do see a lot of Glock 34s and XDm 5.25's in USPSA production. 1) Is that a bad thing to mandate DA being started in DA and not letting folks thumb cock?

5) What guns one sees depends as much on where you're at than which org is sanctioning the event. Our local USPSA club has a lot of G17 & M&PFS guns with a few G19's.


You can play anywhere. And while I may be wrong -- haven't been to a USPSA match in years -- I doubt the really high end guns are being used at the D, C, B, or even A levels (and maybe beyond). And the lower end guys that shoot high end guns still get whumped by a moderately skilled shooter using plain vanilla off the shelf gear.

As Todd (I'm betting) and others well know the gear can make tiny differences that matter when everyone is very close in skill level but a D shooter will not become a B shooter by buying a Limcat 2011 and no one won a match because their new homer bucket holster shaved .01 off a draw.

Alpha Sierra
01-22-2015, 07:05 AM
CCP? 8 round limit? Yawn.......

Clusterfrack
01-22-2015, 10:19 AM
I have been competing in SSP, and doing rather well BTW, with a Stock G19 (plus sights that is) against guys running things like G34s.

I was hoping this was going to be a sort of G19 and similar guns division, now it looks like the retards that pack micro 1911s got their own division.

Same here. Yes, exactly.

GRV
01-22-2015, 12:23 PM
Personally I would have been much happier to see the optics division created. It would have been genuinely interesting to see who'd show up with a MRDS gun and how they'd fair against the top iron sight shooters.

Good point. Having the numbers on combat pistols with MRDSs vs. the same with irons would have been much more interesting.

I also feel that new classes that allow more people to shoot and get involved are better than new classes that just let the same people who are already competing just reclassify themselves with the same gear to feel better about their scores and have a better chance of collecting a trophy. However, I'll admit that my opinion is heavily biased by the fact that 1) I can't even compete anyway (and am barely allowed to shoot the local unsanctioned matches) because AIWB and 2) I'm primarily interested in IDPA to improve my general shooting skills, and not for the purpose of actually being a competitor of the game.

That said, there's a certain amount of benefit to having these sorts of "reclassifying" classes, in the same way that there's benefit to classes at all. Having a G19 class means you'll get more G19 data points and may get data on some of the top shooters (e.g. Vogel) so people who carry G19s can get a better feeling for what, if any difference, that equipment makes in the scores, and perhaps dismiss the notion that "oh my score is pretty good because I was only running a G19 and so-and-so had a G34". The last point is somewhat self-reinforcing: the best shooters will shoot the most advantageous gear because they are really competing at the top level, which decreases the number of highly skilled people competing with G19s, which makes beating the best G19 shooter a less useful goal, and results in less competitive, mutual drive to improve among the G19 shooters. These sorts of reclassifying classes create more tangible goals for the people they cater to and remove doubt about what advantage or disadvantage they are playing with. If a lot of people carry G19s, and not G34s, and IDPA strives to be a competitive environment for CCWers to test and improve their skills, then a class more optimized for G19 shooters is worthwhile for IDPA.

But, I feel the marginal community benefit here is much less than the benefit of actually letting a brand new class of shooters compete with what they carry. Not being allowed to even shoot most matches with your carry gear is way worse than not having highly-tailored competitive data. But in the end, it's just more evidence to me that IDPA isn't as concerned with being a competitive environment for the broad diversity of CCWers but is instead run with the goal of being half pure game and half a competitive environment for the club of CCWers that carry a very specific way. In my limited experience, I've been developing the feeling that theres a big "my way or the highway" vibe to many aspects of IDPA, completely independent from its on-paper goal of wanting to enforce realism.

Sal Picante
01-22-2015, 12:35 PM
I'm going to shoot my 7 rd Kahr at the next IDPA match. This should be fun!
I'll see how I do and report back here...

cclaxton
01-22-2015, 01:22 PM
I'm primarily interested in IDPA to improve my general shooting skills, and not for the purpose of actually being a competitor of the game.

In my limited experience, I've been developing the feeling that theres a big "my way or the highway" vibe to many aspects of IDPA, completely independent from its on-paper goal of wanting to enforce realism.

Improving shooting skills is one of the primary objectives of the sport. But pushing yourself as a competitor is part of the process. When you know you need to shoot faster and accurately after the timer goes off, you are relying on your training/practice to improve performance and your mental discipline and subconscious to perform under the stress of time. So, that means "being a competitor" in it's most basic understanding. That doesn't mean you need to be sponsored and shoot like Vogel. It just means you need to push yourself to improve your score.

In any sport there are going to be rules. IDPA HQ wants clubs to enforce rules to create uniformity. Creating uniformity is always a challenge because you try to make a rule that has the most benefit without sacrificing fundamentals. I don't see the "my way or the highway" attitude from HQ, although I think that is more a reflection of how one views their decisions. In my experience IDPA has given a lot of flexibility to local clubs. Where they get inflexible is at sanctioned matches because shooters need to compete with a uniformly applied set of rules that are not changing a whole lot. Even then, you can't create a rule for every situation otherwise it becomes too cumbersome. Each local club also has a Match Director and club management that can either be strict or liberal in their application of the rules.

I can see that IDPA has made a change in the past year to be more responsive to the membership, and that is reflected in the decision to let the members decide which new division to create. I think that was successful and they will continue that philosophy in the years ahead. Now we just need to make CCP Division a success.
Cody

Hambo
01-23-2015, 07:20 AM
IDPA isn't as concerned with being a competitive environment for the broad diversity of CCWers but is instead run with the goal of being half pure game and half a competitive environment for the club of CCWers that carry a very specific way.

Yeah...the very concealable mag pouch I use every day is illegal and the competition part isn't as much fun as USPSA.

That aside, I don't expect that the legion of people who carry guns that fit the new division but don't shoot competition will rush to IDPA. They reasons they don't compete have nothing to do with where their pistol choices fit in the game.

LostDuke
01-23-2015, 07:33 AM
Am a bit disappointed about the fact that G19's will compete against my PPS, I think that with the proliferation of truly small guns we are witnessing there was an opportunity to have a lot of fun there and maintain a level play field. I will still have fun, as long as I go there focused and come back reflective on what I did wrong and how to fix it, bigger guns be dammed.

cclaxton
01-23-2015, 08:09 AM
Am a bit disappointed about the fact that G19's will compete against my PPS, I think that with the proliferation of truly small guns we are witnessing there was an opportunity to have a lot of fun there and maintain a level play field. I will still have fun, as long as I go there focused and come back reflective on what I did wrong and how to fix it, bigger guns be dammed.
I know a guy who shoots his PPS at a local club and places in the top 5 every time.
Cody

littlejerry
01-23-2015, 05:48 PM
Improving shooting skills is one of the primary objectives of the sport. But pushing yourself as a competitor is part of the process. When you know you need to shoot faster and accurately after the timer goes off, you are relying on your training/practice to improve performance and your mental discipline and subconscious to perform under the stress of time. So, that means "being a competitor" in it's most basic understanding. That doesn't mean you need to be sponsored and shoot like Vogel. It just means you need to push yourself to improve your score.

In any sport there are going to be rules. IDPA HQ wants clubs to enforce rules to create uniformity. Creating uniformity is always a challenge because you try to make a rule that has the most benefit without sacrificing fundamentals. I don't see the "my way or the highway" attitude from HQ, although I think that is more a reflection of how one views their decisions. In my experience IDPA has given a lot of flexibility to local clubs. Where they get inflexible is at sanctioned matches because shooters need to compete with a uniformly applied set of rules that are not changing a whole lot. Even then, you can't create a rule for every situation otherwise it becomes too cumbersome. Each local club also has a Match Director and club management that can either be strict or liberal in their application of the rules.

I can see that IDPA has made a change in the past year to be more responsive to the membership, and that is reflected in the decision to let the members decide which new division to create. I think that was successful and they will continue that philosophy in the years ahead. Now we just need to make CCP Division a success.
Cody

I think the frustration is that they asked "which new division full of new restrictions do you want?

You still can't AIWB, can't carry mags the way a lot of people actually do, and have a totally arbitrary mag cap limit.

So its a division for " real" carry pistols that will be dominated by dudes "concealing" a G19 or 1911 in a OWB comp holster under a vest. How is this different from everyday IDPA except with 8rd mags?

cclaxton
01-23-2015, 06:10 PM
I think the frustration is that they asked "which new division full of new restrictions do you want?

You still can't AIWB, can't carry mags the way a lot of people actually do, and have a totally arbitrary mag cap limit.

So its a division for " real" carry pistols that will be dominated by dudes "concealing" a G19 or 1911 in a OWB comp holster under a vest. How is this different from everyday IDPA except with 8rd mags?
Just outta curiosity, what would you have done different?

orionz06
01-23-2015, 06:32 PM
Eliminate G19's and 1911's but one of those is bad for business.

ToddG
01-23-2015, 07:44 PM
You still can't AIWB

Like the division of USPSA that was supposed to draw people interested in a more IDPA-like division (Production) and also Single Stack. Show up wearing your G19 in an aiwb and you're forced into Limited. Seems like not a very comfortable place for the people who are interested in being competitive there, either. But I grant that at least USPSA allows it somewhere. IDPA is concerned about accidents just like many ranges won't allow aiwb at all. It's the price of being AIWB Cool.


can't carry mags the way a lot of people actually do

What way is that?


and have a totally arbitrary mag cap limit.

Like Production, SS, and Lim-10 in USPSA. Why? Because game. Games have rules. I'm sure somewhere someone wishes that the NFL allowed players to have machetes and war axes. That's why there's Australian Rules Football, right?


So its a division for " real" carry pistols that will be dominated by dudes "concealing" a G19 or 1911 in a OWB comp holster under a vest. How is this different from everyday IDPA except with 8rd mags?

What 1911 fits in the required size limits unless you mean 4" and smaller guns in which case why outlaw those? As soon as they decided to keep it G19-friendly (which is why the barrel length limit is 4.1 instead of 4.0) it was a done deal. It's a silly division specifically built for G19s, essentially... which is useless in my opinion. I'm sure it was super popular with the membership, though, because the membership wanted a place where they could feel safe from the game-oriented G34, 5" M&P, etc.

In fairness, the new division could literally be called "what we intended IDPA to be from the beginning."

As for the comment referring to Bill & Wilson Combat, it's worth noting that the number of people showing up to IDPA matches at any level shooting Wilson 1911s is probably incalculably small and this new division will specifically outlaw any Beretta he offers from the 4.9" Brig all the way down to the 4.3" bbl Compact.

ST911
01-23-2015, 09:33 PM
I'm sure somewhere someone wishes that the NFL allowed players to have machetes and war axes.

"Pass Fast, Run Fast"?

LHS
01-24-2015, 02:47 AM
Yeah, as soon as I saw my 92 Compact was excluded, I lost all interest in the division. Maybe a Shield eventually, but it irks me that a G19 gets in but a 92C doesn't.

Oh well, first world problems.

Hambo
01-24-2015, 07:41 AM
What way is that?

I don't think it's a lot of people, but my JMCK AIWB mag pouch is EDC approved but not IDPA approved.

Like Production, SS, and Lim-10 in USPSA. Why? Because game. Games have rules. I'm sure somewhere someone wishes that the NFL allowed players to have machetes and war axes. That's why there's Australian Rules Football, right?

Hell yeah.



because the membership wanted a place where they could feel safe from the game-oriented G34, 5" M&P, etc.

That one inch difference has apparently spawned some serious inadequacy/envy issues.

GRV
01-24-2015, 11:48 AM
AIWB and other carry methods are a separate can of worms given the safety concerns. Although, USPSA has been successful in allowing AIWB, obtaining ranges for use, and not having throngs of people killing themselves, right? I've been developing the opinion that this issue may be a farce. With hip and behind-the-hip holsters there's some sort of disease that convinces people it's Cool to holster-up without ever moving their eyes from the target. Back when I carried IWB @ 4:00-5:00, I remember doing that at a class and being shocked to find that the shirt I had tucked in earlier had somehow gotten loose and was now jammed in the holster with my gun. That was the last time I ever did the cool-guy reholster. Good thing I was shooting a P7M8 back then and not a Glock. I think the safety concerns associated with existing holstering habits, and the lack of concern about them, in IDPA are perhaps a much bigger issue than any inherent safety issues in holster positions.

I realize that AIWB is the Cool thing around here---for good reason, it's certainly had a dramatic impact on my journey despite my initial misgivings---but forget about AIWB for a minute. There's a ton of people out there that find they can only carry consistently with cross draw, or an ankle holster, or *gasp* a shoulder holster :eek:. It's not worth starting to debate the safety issues, which I think are mostly a problem with the last one, but this very broad class of CCWers have no place to go in IDPA, and USPSA too right? AIWBers are worried about the slight muscle memory difference in practicing draws from the hip for competition vs centerline for CCW, but think about the difference between hip draw practice and ankle draw practice. Eek. Leaving AIWB out of the discussion, there is a broad community of CCWers that can't compete with their carry setup, or even anything approximating it, maybe for good reason, maybe not. But, IDPA doesn't appear concerned with thinking about this issue critically and trying to come up with solutions. That's fine, it doesn't have to be their priority, it's their game, not ours.



What 1911 fits in the required size limits unless you mean 4" and smaller guns in which case why outlaw those? As soon as they decided to keep it G19-friendly (which is why the barrel length limit is 4.1 instead of 4.0) it was a done deal. It's a silly division specifically built for G19s, essentially... which is useless in my opinion. I'm sure it was super popular with the membership, though, because the membership wanted a place where they could feel safe from the game-oriented G34, 5" M&P, etc.

In fairness, the new division could literally be called "what we intended IDPA to be from the beginning."


Emphasis added. This is one of the things I've been sort of getting at. It's great that they had this vote and all, I commend it, but you have to think about how actions serve goals or don't, and define what those goals are. If your goal is pleasing the existing membership, great. But, if your goal is attracting more members...that's a different goal. I imagine that the people who can vote are mostly those who are aligned with the existing state of IDPA and thus felt it worthwhile to join. I figure that most people that are dead-set MRDS, AIWB, or don't bother becoming IDPA members. They shoot the local matches where allowed and go compete in USPSA if applicable or never compete at the sanctioned level. So, the percentage of voters that are [I]really concerned with these issues is probably lower than the percentage that is concerned with issues that are in alignment with the existing culture, e.g. being able to win with their G19.

My friend and I go to some small local matches, and every time, we'll be the only two people in a room of 50 people that aren't wearing beige fishing vests. Our friends at the local club will all shoot 1911s or G34s from an OWB hip holster under a fishing vest or, at practice, from no concealment. Then, when we're there on the weekend to help set up the range for a match, the same people will be carrying a Ruger SR9c in a IWB holster at 4:30 under a t shirt. Shooting their carry gear just isn't what they're interested in. That's not the culture; that's not the community.

I'll keep shooting IDPA because it's one of the best resources I have available to push myself to be a better shooter, but I'm past the point of deluding myself into thinking it's something it isn't or stomping my feet over the fact. Maybe my limited exposure isn't in line with the general IDPA landscape, but I suspect that the reason people like me or some of the other folks here don't see the changes in IDPA that we'd like is simply because the general IDPA community is not what we think it is nor wish it was.

MGW
01-24-2015, 01:47 PM
Good post dove. Lots of good points there. I'm personally looking forward to competing in CCP and seeing who else shoots there and what pistols become popular. I'm also curious to see how the times compare to the SSP division.

ToddG
01-24-2015, 01:56 PM
I don't think it's a lot of people, but my JMCK AIWB mag pouch is EDC approved but not IDPA approved.

So not to be a jerk, but this is the exact line I was referring to:


You still can't AIWB, can't carry mags the way a lot of people actually do, and have a totally arbitrary mag cap limit.

There's a big difference between "what I do" and "what a lot of people do." AIWB is a great example because while it's extremely popular on this forum and among a growing circle of people, it's still far less common among the folks who shoot competition than OWB and IWB. Maybe there is a bit of chicken and egg there, I don't know. How many people out of the x-thousand USPSA members both compete and carry AIWB?


That one inch difference has apparently spawned some serious inadequacy/envy issues.

Yup. But as I said, it's much more along the lines of the game's original intent. Back as the rules were being written, the assumption was that ESP would be where the gamers went because they'd all be shooting 9mm 1911s. Except that essentially never happened and for many years a lot of us argued that SSP should go away and just be merged into SSP. The core membership didn't like it (they still perceived a huge benefit to the guns allowed in ESP over the modified-to-the-limit SSP guns, while complaining that more mods should be allowed in SSP) and the really top guys didn't like it (because Top Shooter A and Top Shooter B could discuss the big matches in advance and agree not to compete against each other, giving each of them a division to win). So it didn't change. Perception became reality.


It's great that they had this vote and all, I commend it, but you have to think about how actions serve goals or don't, and define what those goals are. If your goal is pleasing the existing membership, great.

Keep in mind that one of the biggest ongoing criticisms of IDPA has been that they don't listen to the membership and instead a self-appointed Board of Directors does whatever it wants. So here they've let the membership drive the train and guess what? The membership voted for a division where typical carry guns (like the G19) will reign supreme and what IDPA membership considers gamer guns (G34, etc) won't be allowed to play. The membership basically confirmed what the BOD has said IDPA wants to be at its core. It doesn't want to be the equipment race optics/open game. The membership doesn't want it to be that. The membership got what it wanted.

For folks in this thread, if you're not an IDPA member why are you complaining about what the membership chose?
If you are a member, did you even vote?

LittleLebowski
01-24-2015, 02:06 PM
AIWBers are worried about the slight muscle memory difference in practicing draws from the hip for competition vs centerline for CCW

Is your data based upon a survey? I doubt you have any sort of real data to draw upon so it's hard not to call your statement above a sweeping generalization not backed by any sort of data.

A.G.
01-24-2015, 03:51 PM
I voted for CCP and suggested AIWB be allowed. I think they will come around to it eventually.

GRV
01-24-2015, 06:01 PM
Keep in mind that one of the biggest ongoing criticisms of IDPA has been that they don't listen to the membership and instead a self-appointed Board of Directors does whatever it wants. So here they've let the membership drive the train and guess what? The membership voted for a division where typical carry guns (like the G19) will reign supreme and what IDPA membership considers gamer guns (G34, etc) won't be allowed to play. The membership basically confirmed what the BOD has said IDPA wants to be at its core. It doesn't want to be the equipment race optics/open game. The membership doesn't want it to be that. The membership got what it wanted.


Yea, that's why I commend them for having this vote; it seems to me that even pleasing the existing membership is a goal that needs work. I'm just not convinced that the priorities and preferences of the existing IDPA membership community are really in line with those who want to see IDPA be a walk-up-and-compete-with-your-carry-gear competition.

As far as the outcome goes, I guess it's better for me because I do run a G19. I might get some better tailored competitive data or glean some other benefit. But it doesn't matter much to me, because the slight gaps we may or may not see between CCP and SSP scores are certainly beyond microscopic in comparison to the improvements I need to make, and I'm not expecting shooting philosophy and technique to evolve in any significant way by having more top shooters running G19s vs. G34s.

I still think a MRDS class would have provided more interesting data and would have been a bigger benefit to those who want to see IDPA allow the broad diversity of carry setups to compete. However, on further thought, I'm not really sure the outcome is a great indicator of what direction IDPA is headed in. There's a lot of ways to interpret it, and I suppose it's better evidence that the membership cares about carry realism than not, but meh *shrug*.



Is your data based upon a survey? I doubt you have any sort of real data to draw upon so it's hard not to call your statement above a sweeping generalization not backed by any sort of data.

:confused: I think your attributing a lot more meaning to that statement than I intended. I just meant that those of us who are annoyed that we have to choose between not competing at the sanctioned level or competing with a setup that doesn't drill our exact carry setup have a lot less to complain about than other people in similar situations who carry setups that make AIWB and strong side hip look more similar than different.

ToddG
01-24-2015, 07:17 PM
I think perception and reality are not aligned here. While folks on gun forums and such might think that MRDS, aiwb, and the like are everyday or at least mildly common among typical CCWers, I'm willing to bet they make up far less than 1% of the people who actually carry every day. Remember that IDPA got bit in the butt by the "what I really carry every day" idea with LEOs who showed up with outrageous gamer guns and gamer holsters and said, "yeah, this is what I carry every day at work."

If the IDPA BOD was interested in bringing in new members instead of satisfying existing members, they wouldn't have asked existing members what they wanted. I think -- though obviously I cannot speak for them -- that the current BOD is more interested in sticking to the founding ideas behind IDPA than expanding it into something new.

Until you can carry aiwb and use MRDS in USPSA Production division, I'd say IDPA has a pretty safe hold.

(and fwiw, I don't shoot IDPA and if I were to get back into shooting competition outside of our KSTG matches at the NRA, I'm sure I'd shoot my 9mm Cmdr in USPSA L10 Minor from concealed aiwb... because I'd rather shoot my everyday gear at a competitive disadvantage than shoot something I got just for playing games ... I can lose equally with either :cool:)

littlejerry
01-24-2015, 07:33 PM
So not to be a jerk, but this is the exact line I was referring to:



There's a big difference between "what I do" and "what a lot of people do." AIWB is a great example because while it's extremely popular on this forum and among a growing circle of people, it's still far less common among the folks who shoot competition than OWB and IWB. Maybe there is a bit of chicken and egg there, I don't know. How many people out of the x-thousand USPSA members both compete and carry AIWB?

Fair point on AIWB not being the norm, but carrying mags forward of the point of the hip is very common. Go to any USPSA match and count the number of people with mags on the front of the body. Sure, it doesn't work well with an IDPA vest, but how many people actually carry with one of these gamer vests?

I strongly believe that competition should be a venue to test gear, equipment, and strategy. Especially a sport that claims to be built around defensive shooting scenarios, it should strive to promote the use of the most effective equipment and techniques even if they weren't popular when the founding fathers were around.

This is not a chicken and the egg situation. The sport should foster creativity and innovation, not stifle it.

Glenn E. Meyer
01-24-2015, 08:51 PM
Well, I'm going to run a G26 in an OWB holster tomorrow as that is what I carry (or sometimes a G19). I'll be in the FOG division. That's the one where equipment includes folding chairs to save our knees.

As far as what folks carry - can you take out your glove compartment and use that? If they do have a holster - it's some cheap crap from Academy.

ToddG
01-24-2015, 10:11 PM
Fair point on AIWB not being the norm, but carrying mags forward of the point of the hip is very common. Go to any USPSA match and count the number of people with mags on the front of the body.

I wouldn't use USPSA as an example of how people carry concealed.


Sure, it doesn't work well with an IDPA vest, but how many people actually carry with one of these gamer vests?

I carried with a variety of vests and other open front garments for many, many years. A whole lot of people still do (including people who wear "gamer" vests every day in environments where the random strangers walking around them don't know what a "gamer" vest is or what it's for). Furthermore, the vast majority of people I see (and taught, and took classes with, and took classes from) carried at 3/9 o'clock regardless of what kind of concealment garment they wore. Again, I'm quite confident if you did a survey among the small percentage of people who carry a spare to begin with CCW, most of them would be at or behind the hip.


I strongly believe that competition should be a venue to test gear, equipment, and strategy. Especially a sport that claims to be built around defensive shooting scenarios, it should strive to promote the use of the most effective equipment and techniques even if they weren't popular when the founding fathers were around.

While I understand what you're saying, that's not the goal of IDPA. They're not trying to be the place for people to innovate any more than the NFL is (supposed to be) the place to try different inflation levels of footballs. :cool:

No game is the place to innovate defensive tactics.


The sport should foster creativity and innovation, not stifle it.

So what rules would you keep? I'm sure there are plenty of people who'd love to shoot USPSA or IDPA matches with their slung ARs. And maybe that's not what you carry, but some people do. So should they be allowed? Should I get a better score for de-escalating a scenario so no shots need to be fired? That's certainly a great defensive tactic. If I see threat targets when I enter the bay and run away instead of shooting the stage, do I win?

Games have rules. I don't like many of the rules of IDPA. I don't shoot IDPA. But I don't get upset that their rules are the rules they want; and, I certainly don't get upset that they have a mission statement that is different than what I or anyone else might prefer.

ST911
01-25-2015, 11:10 AM
My experience, applies to those known to carry with some regularity or intentional thought... 3:00 OWB and possibly a 9:00 spare mag prevail in CCW. Where it varies, it's a 4:00 OWB or maybe IWB. Lots of open front garments of all types. Fishing/photo/RR type vests aren't uncommon (mostly cops) but don't seem to last on the same person long. Lots of leather, western, or fleece/softshell vests. Otherwise, it's pull-over somethings. Some variation for weather conditions.

With less regularity or intentional planning, there's more off-body carry, some variation on the above, and whatever was on sale at the gun counter.

This is what's represented at club matches I've shot. Anyone else doing anything else was a small minority.

jlw
01-27-2015, 10:05 AM
I've let my IDPA membership lapse, and I haven't shot a match in months. In fact, I think I only shot one match in all of 2014, and that was simply to try to help a sanctioned match get to enough EX shooters for somebody to earn a match bump.

---

IDPA suffers from divisional dilution. They keep subdividing to the field into smaller and smaller groups, and they keep creating more room for debate and angst. If the classification system is valid, striker fired versus single action trigger isn't an issue. One shooter's mutilated frame shouldn't bump him to another division when another shooter's grip tape doesn't. Functionally, they are the same thing.

Make a list of approved modifications. Let 'er rip.

At most, do a capacity/power factor break such as 8+1/160 for one division versus 10+1/125 for the other. Having rules that you don't need lawyers, a judge, and an appellate court to interpret is a good thing, and deep competition pools are an even better thing.

jlw
01-27-2015, 10:51 AM
Now that my rant is out of the way, when is the jumping off date for this new division, and is there a definitive link for the rules? I don't see it on the IDPA web page or the IDPA forum.

cclaxton
01-27-2015, 11:19 AM
The sport should foster creativity and innovation, not stifle it.
IDPA and USPSA are sports that require rules for their members, which cuts a wide variety of skill levels and capabilities.
Once something is proven to have popular appeal and can be implemented safely and competitively, it will be adopted.

But I do think a very interesting question is where are the experimental labs for shooting sports? Frank Glover is a good MD who thinks outside the box and supports a wide variety of different kinds of matches. He once told me about a match he hosted that if you hit a non-threat you were DQ'd. His quote: "That slowed them down."

I do think there is a place for equipment and sport innovation, but not in IDPA or USPSA.
Cody

BN
01-27-2015, 11:33 AM
when is the jumping off date for this new division, and is there a definitive link for the rules? I don't see it on the IDPA web page or the IDPA forum.

From the Eblast sent out from IDPA on 1/19/2015

Once the BoD has reviewed the rules, any last minute changes will be made and the rulebook will be released to the membership on the website during the last week of January. The 2015 rulebook will go into effect March 1st in order for everyone to have an adjustment period. We will be sending more information and the link as we get closer to the final date.

Hambo
01-27-2015, 12:08 PM
I do think there is a place for equipment and sport innovation, but not in IDPA or USPSA.
Cody

Where do you think the idea for RDS on carry guns came from?

Speaking of Frank Glover, I used to shoot some matches in that area that had no classifications and no divisions. Equipment rules were very simple and everybody was in one big pool. I got beat by national champions as well as guys from an obscure corner of Ft. Bragg. Losing to them didn't bother me a bit, in fact, it made me work harder knowing that even if I couldn't beat them I could narrow the gap.

IMO classifications are to prevent butthurt for those who don't shoot very well or very fast. Create enough divisions and classifications and everybody can win.

When I start my Big Boy Rules shooting sport there will be one division, no classifications, and plenty of pain.

rob_s
01-27-2015, 12:17 PM
You still can't AIWB, can't carry mags the way a lot of people actually do, and have a totally arbitrary mag cap limit.

While this forum and others may think of AIWB as mainstream, it is not. The percentage of people who would ACTUALLY otherwise shoot IDPA if only their pet carry position were allowed is statistically insignificant to the IDPA business model.

As Mr White has shown, there is a game and a division for those who wish to carry AIWB, and with dedication one can even be competitive doing so.

BigT
01-27-2015, 12:19 PM
IMO classifications are to prevent butthurt for those who don't shoot very well or very fast. Create enough divisions and classifications and everybody can win.

.


So much truth.

jlw
01-27-2015, 12:30 PM
From the Eblast sent out from IDPA on 1/19/2015

Once the BoD has reviewed the rules, any last minute changes will be made and the rulebook will be released to the membership on the website during the last week of January. The 2015 rulebook will go into effect March 1st in order for everyone to have an adjustment period. We will be sending more information and the link as we get closer to the final date.

Thanks. A local club has a classifier this weekend, and I was thinking of renewing and then shooting it with my M&P45 Midsize to classify in all four pistol divisions.

It's just as well though, with GAPDA bolting and SC not having a state match, there aren't any sanctioned matches that won't involve overnight travel.

LSP972
01-27-2015, 01:15 PM
Where do you think the idea for RDS on carry guns came from?

.

From Kelly McCann. And unless I miss my guess, he was not involved in competitive shooting at the time.

Unless you count the two-way range as "competitive".

.

.

KevinB
01-27-2015, 01:41 PM
I want my MRDS and Flashlight on my gun - and be able to carry and draw from it in any no sweeping the crowd manner I should choose...

ToddG
01-27-2015, 01:54 PM
Losing to them didn't bother me a bit...

That's awesome. For you. Plenty of people feel otherwise. Every time I shot IDPA Nats I was amazed at the incredible pride guys got for winning a little trophy that said "5th Place Marksman." Tons of people jump to a new division as soon as they make Master so they can remain competitive without having to beat the national champs. Some people are happy to throw down with everyone & anyone. But a lot of the attraction to these sports is that people don't have to compete with the world class guys. It's not by random happenstance that both IPSC and IDPA have a classification system.


IMO classifications are to prevent butthurt for those who don't shoot very well or very fast.

That's just an asinine elitist way to look at it. Guys who want to show up for fun and who don't practice ten hours a week shouldn't have to get dumped on just because other people are more interested and have more resources (time, ammo, etc). The guy who has four little kids and makes $40k a year has a real training disadvantage compared to the single guy who makes three times that and whose only passion in life is shooting. If that second guy really thinks the first guy should have to compete "head to head" then it's really a psychological problem on his part. "I wish to crush those who cannot compete against me!" Hooray. What a tough guy.


Create enough divisions and classifications and everybody can win.

Can you show me an IDPA or USPSA match in which everyone came in first place? Otherwise: silly soundbite is silly.


When I start my Big Boy Rules shooting sport there will be one division, no classifications, and plenty of pain.

Again, hooray. When it's one tenth as popular as IDPA or USPSA, let us know. Because I'm sure the "game that no one enjoys" will inspire millions.


From Kelly McCann. And unless I miss my guess, he was not involved in competitive shooting at the time.

You're sure McCann was using a red dot on pistols before the mid 70's (bullseye) or the 90's (IPSC)?

jh9
01-27-2015, 03:18 PM
In fairness, the new division could literally be called "what we intended IDPA to be from the beginning.

It would be an interesting first step. Establish CCP, then later combine SSP and ESP since they're basically identical if you compare the guns people actually shoot. Of course, I'd prefer CCP a have minimum trigger pull requirement a la IPSC Production, but whatever.

Granted, the same guys will win, and the Glock 19 will be as dominant in CCP as the 34/35 is in SSP/ESP...but it's a step in the right direction WRT the notion that the game differs from USPSA in how it favors more practical hardware.

KevinB
01-27-2015, 03:26 PM
You're sure McCann was using a red dot on pistols before the mid 70's (bullseye) or the 90's (IPSC)?

Not to speak for LSP - but his comment was a Carry Gun -- not a comp gun.

PPGMD
01-27-2015, 03:28 PM
You know if instead of picking Glock 19 sized, they should gone even smaller and make the M&P 9 Compact the biggest gun for the division. Or maybe Shield, or PM9 sized.

Peally
01-27-2015, 03:36 PM
Todd you pretty much summed up my thoughts on the matter. Different games, different rules, and I'm OK with that. Sure, IDPA can certainly attract the more casual shooter (around here just because it's leagues more common than USPSA) but I see no issues with that; if someone feels great about getting that 5th place marksman trophy I'm damn proud they're having fun. There's no need to poop on every non-operator.

I'm probably skewed in the brain but I cannot for the life of me figure out why people complain so much about either sport whether it be over rules or participation or whatever. To me it's like playing rugby vs football, in both you're running into people over a ball and you just need to adjust your actions to fit the particular rules you're under that day. I love both and will continue to shoot both, on top of multigun and whatever the hell else they come out with tomorrow ;)

Edwin
01-27-2015, 04:17 PM
From Kelly McCann. And unless I miss my guess, he was not involved in competitive shooting at the time.

Unless you count the two-way range as "competitive".

.

.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/criterion-production/stills/9005-7ae0b09f12fffcb9f72c4bb51fd7864d/Film_46w_MostDangerous_original.jpg

Hambo
01-27-2015, 05:21 PM
elitist

Elitist? Pretty ironic on this forum given some of the discussions, but back on target. I'd say I'm a realist because I was the guy who couldn't quit my job and practice five days a week, and thus I knew that I couldn't beat Jerry Miculek on his worst day. Is that fair? Maybe or maybe not, but that's life.

LSP972, I don't know who the first guy to bolt an optic to a pistol was, but it was some IPSC innovator. My point was that in the case of optics, the idea began in a game and eventually crossed over to the real world. Like the space program and velcro, only different. ;)

LostDuke
01-28-2015, 07:57 AM
Yea, that's why I commend them for having this vote; it seems to me that even pleasing the existing membership is a goal that needs work. I'm just not convinced that the priorities and preferences of the existing IDPA membership community are really in line with those who want to see IDPA be a walk-up-and-compete-with-your-carry-gear competition.

Since I don't post often, let me state that I am an IDPA member, shoot SSP and enjoy the occasional bug match. I voted for the CCW division.

The thread here is very elitist and over the top from my humble perspective. IDPA does not try to please its members, it is its members. We voted for what we wanted, and we are going to have a lot of fun AND become better shooters in the process. I really struggle with the massive amount of outsider comments in this thread. Who cares about aligning the priorities of this and that group? We the members voted for shooting with what we carry, and we will. The others can join the lots of pain soon to come new thing nobody will ever hear about. IDPA is growing exponentially, and while certainly not perfect by any means it is still a great place to have fun and improve.

I do not do appendix carry, nor I know anybody who does. As a safety officer, I would hate to loose sight of the gun as it is holstered, the elbow would probably get in the way. I have stopped people when I saw loose shirts, would not be able to even see the finger for somebody holstering appendix. That fact alone, in a context where I could be called to a court of law in case of an unintended discharge, would make me speak passionately against appendix carry in IDPA. As Todd says, probably 1% of the shooters carry that way so who cares really.

Initially, I thought the G19 was unfair for me but then I realized that tons of people carry it, so it would have been stupid to exclude it. So it will be a reality check for people like me who prefer to carry a slimmer gun and in doing so probably loose something shooting wise.



IDPA suffers from divisional dilution. They keep subdividing to the field into smaller and smaller groups, and they keep creating more room for debate and angst

I am not sure how IDPA is suffering, or where the angst is. The only people who are sort of alone are revolver shooters, the others are all competing against a varied and though crowd at least at sanctioned matches. We all have fun just the same though, and I find it hard to say a sport growing that fast is suffering. Golf is suffering, the wait list at IDPA matches are out of control.

in conclusion, the members like me who carry behind the hip because we are not worthy enough have decided that CCW guns will play in a different sandbox. What I can tell you now is that the first thing you want to be fast with these days is your mouse, because if you don't sign up IMMEDIATELY when registration starts for any given match you are s%** out of luck for sure.

So much for suffering.

Failure2Stop
01-28-2015, 08:34 AM
No game is the place to innovate defensive tactics.


I really wish that more people could comprehend this.

LSP972
01-28-2015, 09:01 AM
You're sure McCann was using a red dot on pistols before the mid 70's (bullseye) or the 90's (IPSC)?

Dunno exactly WHEN he began. I AM reasonably certain he was the first to put one on a Glock 19 for actual carrying, which is what Hambo referenced.

Bonnie Harmon of the Army MTU actually "pioneered" the use of RDS on competition pistols, when he surprised everybody (except his team mates) by showing up at Camp Perry with one on his wad gun in 1968.

.

LSP972
01-28-2015, 09:03 AM
[QUOTE=Hambo;289786LSP972, I don't know who the first guy to bolt an optic to a pistol was, but it was some IPSC innovator. [/QUOTE]

Ah, no. See my post above.

.

ToddG
01-28-2015, 09:22 AM
I really wish that more people could comprehend this.

It's much IDPA's own fault. Their original self-described role was "the REAL Defensive Shooting Sport" (or maybe even tactical not defensive, I'm too lazy to go into the dungeon and try to find one of my old school rulebooks). The founders were very purposeful in trying to draw in the CCW crowd and the folks -- like me -- who saw IPSC of the day as being little more than running around hosing a billion targets. There are all sorts of "tactics" rules like how to use cover, what types of reloads are allowed, etc. that have driven many people to redefine what is correct.

I remember talking to Ken as the game was just spinning up and he was already lamenting that "IDPA will do for the tactical reload what IPSC did for the speed reload." And sure enough, for many people the tac load was the only right thing to do for many, many years after that.

I'm not slamming IDPA for trying to add a slice of realism into how people shoot -- we've had a lot of success at our local KSTG matches teaching people to avoid crowding cover with our rules -- but at the competitor level you just cannot start to compare what worked best in stage planning with what would work best if those cardboard and steel targets could walk around corners and start blasting you en masse.

jlw
01-28-2015, 09:26 AM
I know numerous shooters who dumped IDPA because they got tired of expending the money and effort to go to matches that were sold out but didn't have enough shooters in the classifications for the winner to get a bump. Twice, I have personally volunteered to switch divisions at a sold out sanctioned match to try to get the numbers to where someone could earn a match bump. The shooters involved either went USPSA or 3-gun.

Having 18 EX shooters split among three divisions over things as simple as stippling or 1911 versus Glock or the old ridiculous rule putting XDs in ESP doesn't make much sense. If the classification system is valid, put all 18 of them head to head.

There used to be three sold out sanctioned IDPA matches per year within 1.5 hours of my house. Now all three are gone. The only remaining IDPA club with the facilities big enough to host a sanctioned match steadfastly declines to do so.

Edit to add:

I just remembered a sold out sanctioned match where none of the three divisions had enough SS level shooters for the winner to get a bump, and none of the EX shooters earned one either.

cclaxton
01-28-2015, 09:47 AM
I know numerous shooters who dumped IDPA because they got tired of expending the money and effort to go to matches that were sold out but didn't have enough shooters in the classifications for the winner to get a bump. Twice, I have personally volunteered to switch divisions at a sold out sanctioned match to try to get the numbers to where someone could earn a match bump. The shooters involved either went USPSA or 3-gun.

Having 18 EX shooters split among three divisions over things as simple as stippling or 1911 versus Glock or the old ridiculous rule putting XDs in ESP doesn't make much sense. If the classification system is valid, put all 18 of them head to head.

There used to be three sold out sanctioned IDPA matches per year within 1.5 hours of my house. Now all three are gone. The only remaining IDPA club with the facilities big enough to host a sanctioned match steadfastly declines to do so.

Edit to add:

I just remembered a sold out sanctioned match where none of the three divisions had enough SS level shooters for the winner to get a bump, and none of the EX shooters earned one either.
I am always interested in a match bump. But that is not the only reason I go to a sanctioned match. I go to compete with the best in my class, to talk guns, ammo, and technique, to challenge myself in a more difficult match, gain valuable experience and to have some fun. That all being said, I agree with you that the classes tend to get thinned-out when you add another semi-auto division. I personally advocated for combining SSP and ESP, having BUG as a standard Division and adding Optics/Lasers. And, the gun rule should be this: If it makes weight and fits the box, it should be legal to shoot in IDPA. But, like everything involving large numbers of people, there will be compromises made. I accept them and enjoy the sports.
Cody

jlw
01-28-2015, 12:29 PM
When a shooter is dumping hundreds of dollars and copious windshield time to shoot a sanctioned match they shouldn't have to play divisional lottery. Save the intrinsic fun of competing for the local club matches.

ToddG
01-28-2015, 03:58 PM
When a shooter is dumping hundreds of dollars and copious windshield time to shoot a sanctioned match they shouldn't have to play divisional lottery. Save the intrinsic fun of competing for the local club matches.

I don't understand this unless someone is specifically trying to get a match bump. If that's the case, I've been to many matches where anything but SSP was not going to provide a match bump number of shooters in just about any class.

The "head to head" idea of compacting all the divisions into one another makes sense but is scary on a national level for a game that wants to promote stock-ish guns, etc. As soon as the first time shooter has to compete against a guy who is allowed to have stippling on his grip, it become demotivating. Sounds silly, I know, but having spoken to plenty of IDPA competitors at all levels of matches from local to national it's a very common concern.

FWIW, I learned a lot of this while actively advocating the merger of SSP and ESP in IDPA.

jlw
01-28-2015, 05:02 PM
I don't understand this unless someone is specifically trying to get a match bump. If that's the case, I've been to many matches where anything but SSP was not going to provide a match bump number of shooters in just about any class.

The "head to head" idea of compacting all the divisions into one another makes sense but is scary on a national level for a game that wants to promote stock-ish guns, etc. As soon as the first time shooter has to compete against a guy who is allowed to have stippling on his grip, it become demotivating. Sounds silly, I know, but having spoken to plenty of IDPA competitors at all levels of matches from local to national it's a very common concern.

FWIW, I learned a lot of this while actively advocating the merger of SSP and ESP in IDPA.

The guy had the goal of making Master.

I just don't see why stippling and grip tape are viewed differently as far as divisions are concerned. It's not like we're talking open versus production differences.

ToddG
01-28-2015, 08:12 PM
The guy had the goal of making Master.

He could find a classifier... :cool:


I just don't see why stippling and grip tape are viewed differently as far as divisions are concerned. It's not like we're talking open versus production differences.

Dude, I'm with you. There are a lot of weird rules in every shooting sport. I can shoot USPSA L10 from aiwb, but can't shoot Single Stack with my single stack pistol if I want to AIWB. Though at least USPSA lets me carry aiwb somewhere.

jlw
01-28-2015, 08:33 PM
He could find a classifier... :cool:


He actually made MA in another division.




Dude, I'm with you. There are a lot of weird rules in every shooting sport. I can shoot USPSA L10 from aiwb, but can't shoot Single Stack with my single stack pistol if I want to AIWB. Though at least USPSA lets me carry aiwb somewhere.


I've never even been on a range at the same time that a USPSA match was taking place. I'm only minimally familiar with their rules.

Give me GSSF. I don't have to run.

Mr_White
01-29-2015, 12:24 PM
Though at least USPSA lets me carry aiwb somewhere.

Isn't it kind of sad that that fact is such a bright and shining aspect of USPSA, in the overall world of action pistol competition? I find myself loving USPSA just for the fact that they have a division where I can compete with the gear I want to use.


I've never even been on a range at the same time that a USPSA match was taking place. I'm only minimally familiar with their rules.

USPSA rules: Go shoot As from within the shooting area, however you see fit to do that.

That's quite an oversimplification, but I think that's the essence.


Give me GSSF. I don't have to run.

For real. If we were going to run in order to deal with the targets, we could be using machetes and spears and numchucks and switchblades. We have guns so we don't have to chase stuff to poke a hole in it....

But seriously, I hate running too. I do love shooting enough to run around in USPSA so that I can shoot the targets though.

jlw
01-29-2015, 03:21 PM
For real. If we were going to run in order to deal with the targets, we could be using machetes and spears and numchucks and switchblades. We have guns so we don't have to chase stuff to poke a hole in it....

But seriously, I hate running too. I do love shooting enough to run around in USPSA so that I can shoot the targets though.

If I am running in a gun fight, it is darn near certain that I am running away...

jlw
01-29-2015, 03:26 PM
It occurred to me today that if the point of the matches, at least the sanctioned ones, isn't about winning and match bumps, then why are divisions needed? If it is all about the intrinsic value of the match, why not go shoot your Shield 9 up against the G34s? You don't need a cut-out. Just go spend hundreds of dollars for the match and enjoy your shellacking.

cclaxton
01-29-2015, 04:40 PM
It occurred to me today that if the point of the matches, at least the sanctioned ones, isn't about winning and match bumps, then why are divisions needed? If it is all about the intrinsic value of the match, why not go shoot your Shield 9 up against the G34s? You don't need a cut-out. Just go spend hundreds of dollars for the match and enjoy your shellacking.
jlw,
It's not a black/white single objective to go to a sanctioned match. I go hoping for a match bump, but for all the reasons I listed earlier as well. Divisions are needed to adjust for innate differences in equipment. Just like it's not fair to compare a revolver and semi-auto competitor, it's also not fair to compare a 8+1 shooter to a 10+1 shooter (where reloads make a diff). Now for SSP and ESP, I think the differences in equipment are so minor that they should be combined.

Now for classifications, that has more to do with rewarding achievement over what is normally a many-year process to get to Expert/Master for someone who starts at Novice. Most sports have multiple levels of classification that you must work through. There is a important psychological factor. If you had everyone shoot in one big class, then most shooters in the lower half will not work as hard to compete as those near the top. By establishing classes, winning or placing in a particular class results in people working harder to get the trophy as opposed to moving up a few positions over the last match. This results in competitors improving more by trying to win a class than if they were all in one large class. This is scientifically verified psychological research. This is why you see classifications in just about every single type of sport.
Cody

Urban_Redneck
01-31-2015, 10:20 AM
The pretense of a vote aside, I think production optics didn't get the nod because it would require a new box and open yet another debate whether aftermarket magwells ought to be included in said box dimensions.

If IDPA wanted to make a more "realistic" CCP division they might have required the often slower to load, single stack mags, only.

The only "painless" division change might have been to have a new revolver division that was 140 PF, and allowed moon clips OR a MRDS. No one cares what the revo guys are up to ;)

Since IDPA is much more so a "gateway" shooting sport than USPSA, AIWB will remain a major liability concern and likely persist in be being ,just a small dot on the horizon for quite some time.

My IDPA duffer $0.02

Casual Friday
02-02-2015, 12:10 PM
Color me excited. The CCP size guns are what I shoot and carry so a division for those makes me happy. Not that I wouldn't shoot in SSP against bigger guns, but CCP makes me feel like they created a division just for this special snowflake right here.

I carry IWB at 3:00, but alas my preferred spare mag position of between 11-12:00 wouldn't be allowed, but I digress.

ToddG
02-02-2015, 04:03 PM
From IDPA HQ:


There were only a couple of 4” semi-auto firearms, out of 355 total entries in the 2014 IDPA Nationals, but the equipment survey indicated that the Glock 19 is the most popular firearm carried by those that shot that Nationals. The combination of membership requests, significant difference in Classifier times, and the equipment survey all added together were compelling reasons for the new CCP division and for CCP to include 4.1” barreled firearms. Nearly every manufacturer makes one or more firearms with a barrel length around 4”. We expect the competition should be great.

IOW, everyone is carrying a G19 but no one is competing with a G19 because: game. So now they're giving people an option to play the game but with the gun they normally carry. Because: whole purpose behind IDPA being formed in the first place.

Mr_White
02-02-2015, 04:16 PM
IOW, everyone is carrying a G19 but no one is competing with a G19 because: game. So now they're giving people an option to play the game but with the gun they normally carry. Because: whole purpose behind IDPA being formed in the first place.

The internet has told me a number of times that most/many people shooting IDPA aren't carrying a G19 either - instead, an LCP, j-frame, something similar, or nothing. Not that I know what the truth is with regard to IDPA match participants. When you were shooting IDPA, did you think everyone/most/many carried a G19 or another similarly sized handgun?

ToddG
02-02-2015, 04:48 PM
When you were shooting IDPA, did you think everyone/most/many carried a G19 or another similarly sized handgun?

It varied quite a bit, especially as time went on. In the beginning, there were a lot of guys carrying Real Guns every day and a lot of guys who competed with Real Guns but carried j-frames. Later on once there were a lot of sponsored shooters and IDPA was at the height of its popularity, most of the top guys probably didn't carry at all while most of the MM/SS level shooters had become more consistent about carrying G19-sized guns every day.

I'm willing to take IDPA HQ's report of its survey at face value. The response was that the G19 was the most popular EDC pistol among the competitors at Nationals.

I think IDPA is a very specific and non-representative slice of the average gun carrying public. If you asked what the most popular carry gun was among the average joes who show up at a practice range once every month or two to shoot their 1911s and Glocks, I'd guess "j-frame or tiny auto." It would be very interesting to see how the folks at this year's USPSA Nationals matches answered the question.

rob_s
02-02-2015, 04:52 PM
The internet has told me a number of times that most/many people shooting IDPA aren't carrying a G19 either - instead, an LCP, j-frame, something similar, or nothing. Not that I know what the truth is with regard to IDPA match participants. When you were shooting IDPA, did you think everyone/most/many carried a G19 or another similarly sized handgun?

so, then, according to the internet the poll-takers are liars?

while I realize that IDPA is the new whipping boy of "serious shooters", my experience at the local club and at various sanctioned matches over the last decade, has been at the very least that the G19 is the gun that the particpants *want* to carry, even if they don't carry every day, and that the number of IDPA shooters that carry ANYTHING is exponentially greater than the number of USPSA shooters that carry, as 'round here the USPSA is treated much like golf, and the guns considered like clubs.

I suspect, however, that it's like most things, and people see/hear/conclude what they want based on the preconceptions they arrive with.

GRV
02-02-2015, 05:00 PM
The internet has told me a number of times that most/many people shooting IDPA aren't carrying a G19 either - instead, an LCP, j-frame, something similar, or nothing. Not that I know what the truth is with regard to IDPA match participants. When you were shooting IDPA, did you think everyone/most/many carried a G19 or another similarly sized handgun?

I think the actual carry setup of folks, and the extent to which that is different from their IDPA gear, may depend on the region. In some regions, I could see that the full-size gun, vest, and hip holster thing is pretty solid. However, there are other regions where a gust of wind is enough to turn that setup into a revoked license, and talking about shooting is bound to get you dirty looks from 90% of the people you run into day-to-day. It's these latter regions that I'm more familiar with, which may partially explain why my experience is more in line with what you're getting at here.

Separately, I found the IDPA HQ email pretty sincere and insightful. I found this part interesting:

But after having some DM and MA level shooters shoot the Classifier with an SSP firearm and again with a CCP sized firearm, that helped to change our minds. It was discovered that the CCP Classifier times ranged from 7% to 24% slower than SSP times with the same shooter on the same day. This is a bigger difference than SSP to CDP firearms and is roughly on par with the SSP to Revolver difference in Classifier times. The compact firearms are harder to shoot quickly and accurately than some originally thought. This is probably why they are rarely represented in sanctioned matches, up to now.
If by "CCP sized firearm" they mean ~G19 and "SSP firearm" they mean G34, that's a much bigger gap than I was expecting. In which case, I think CCP will be a quite useful class with regards to the data it produces, both in times and in watching highly-skilled shooters work.

jlw
02-02-2015, 05:01 PM
Yeah, and IDPA calls a 3" L-frame a BUG-R...

---

I was told back in the days when duty gear could be run at a sanctioned match that cops couldn't compete with G34/G35s in duty gear because they weren't approved duty pistols. I responded that the Kentucky State Police, the Alabama DNR, and named several other agencies would be shocked to learn that their issued gun was an approved duty pistol. Note, I was not sporting a G34 in duty gear at the time.

Talionis
02-02-2015, 05:30 PM
The internet has told me a number of times that most/many people shooting IDPA aren't carrying a G19 either - instead, an LCP, j-frame, something similar, or nothing. Not that I know what the truth is with regard to IDPA match participants. When you were shooting IDPA, did you think everyone/most/many carried a G19 or another similarly sized handgun?

I'll give you a very local perspective. I shoot USPSA and IDPA on a nearly weekly basis in the Boise, ID area. In this area, the majority of competitive shooters in both disciplines carry daily. I find that the more serious they are as a shooter, the more of a "real" gun they tend to carry; to whit, two of the most popular types of carry guns among the local hotshots are G17's and 1911 commander or full size guns. Only a few of the upper tier shooters either carry a pocket gun or nothing.

It is interesting to note that there is a trend towards smaller carry guns as one moves down the score sheet, with Shields and LCPs being the order of the day for those without much time or interest to train to get better. I have to admit to some selection bias in this report, since the people I am most familiar with in both IDPA and USPSA locally are mostly the same core guys, and they are mostly serious and skilled shooters.

Edwin
02-02-2015, 06:22 PM
What people actually carry is probably whatever is cheapest.

http://blog.cheaperthandirt.com/top-10-best-selling-concealed-carry-handguns/
http://blog.cheaperthandirt.com/cheaper-dirts-top-selling-guns-2014/
http://blog.cheaperthandirt.com/top-5-product-reviews-2014-shooters-log/

Mr_White
02-02-2015, 06:29 PM
so, then, according to the internet the poll-takers are liars?

while I realize that IDPA is the new whipping boy of "serious shooters", my experience at the local club and at various sanctioned matches over the last decade, has been at the very least that the G19 is the gun that the particpants *want* to carry, even if they don't carry every day, and that the number of IDPA shooters that carry ANYTHING is exponentially greater than the number of USPSA shooters that carry, as 'round here the USPSA is treated much like golf, and the guns considered like clubs.

I suspect, however, that it's like most things, and people see/hear/conclude what they want based on the preconceptions they arrive with.

Bold added by me.

Lol, Rob, that is not what I am saying, and the 'internet telling me' refers to many comments I've seen on multiple forums over the course of years to the effect that although IDPA is supposed to be about 'competing as you carry', competitors are frequently reported to be observed to arrive and depart the match with a gun radically different from the one they shoot in IDPA competition or no gun at all. I've seen the comment enough that hearing the report that the G19 is the most popular gun carried by IDPA competitors who attended nationals made me wonder about it. Actually, now that I consider the sentence that Todd posted more carefully, it's worded in a way that would make it technically correct if one person said they carry a G19 and all other survey respondents said they don't carry a gun at all, so maybe I shouldn't find it as surprising a claim as I did at first.

Anyway, I have never been to an IDPA match, which is why I asked someone with actual IDPA experience what they had personally seen.

I would assume that you are correct about USPSA shooters being 'worse' in this regard. Of course 'worse' is a loaded word that attaches righteousness to the priorities that I happen to have and that many other people do not share (which is none of my business.)

Mr_White
02-02-2015, 06:34 PM
I'll give you a very local perspective. I shoot USPSA and IDPA on a nearly weekly basis in the Boise, ID area. In this area, the majority of competitive shooters in both disciplines carry daily.

Thank you!


I find that the more serious they are as a shooter, the more of a "real" gun they tend to carry; to whit, two of the most popular types of carry guns among the local hotshots are G17's and 1911 commander or full size guns. Only a few of the upper tier shooters either carry a pocket gun or nothing.

It is interesting to note that there is a trend towards smaller carry guns as one moves down the score sheet, with Shields and LCPs being the order of the day for those without much time or interest to train to get better. I have to admit to some selection bias in this report, since the people I am most familiar with in both IDPA and USPSA locally are mostly the same core guys, and they are mostly serious and skilled shooters.

Now THAT is a really interesting observation. I wonder if that boils down to one of the original functions of action pistol competition - to discover which equipment and techniques worked 'best'? Maybe those better shooters you are talking about don't want to lose their shooting capability outside the match to carrying a j-frame.

freeidaho
02-02-2015, 07:58 PM
The Tactical Journal has the survey. www.idpa.com/content/tactical-journal/14V18I4.pdf Page 32 is of interest.

Clusterfrack
02-02-2015, 08:04 PM
...I've seen the comment enough that hearing the report that the G19 is the most popular gun carried by IDPA competitors who attended nationals made me wonder about it. ...

Our local match director carries a G19, and got a match bump to SSP Master at the WA state championship using the same G19. For some reason he's decided to shoot CDP with a 1911 that has lots of problems so I've been taking home some match wins instead of 2nd place :-)

Talionis
02-03-2015, 12:14 AM
Now THAT is a really interesting observation. I wonder if that boils down to one of the original functions of action pistol competition - to discover which equipment and techniques worked 'best'? Maybe those better shooters you are talking about don't want to lose their shooting capability outside the match to carrying a j-frame.

Yes, I do think what some of the local heroes carry does tie into the roots of action pistol sports in terms of discovering capabilities with different technique and gear. One M class shooter carries his spare SVI limited gun as his carry gun, he's not willing to make any compromise from his full match level performance. Many of us started competition with sub-optimal guns, and eventually realized that we really did shoot full frame guns with a longer sight radius better at a given skill level. Most of the local shooters that have a drive to win in competition also have a drive to win in most things, including the admittedly unlikely event of a self-defense shooting. To a certain degree, that means selecting equipment that doesn't impose too severe a handicap. I found that I can shoot a "compact" gun such as a G19 and similar sized guns within 90% or higher of a full frame competition gun, and chose that as my primary carry gun. The same can be said for a number of other guys I know that carry things like CZ P01's and 1911 commanders. Interestingly, most of those guns happen to fit nicely in the CCP division.

ToddG
02-03-2015, 09:02 AM
The same can be said for a number of other guys I know that carry things like CZ P01's and 1911 commanders. Interestingly, most of those guns happen to fit nicely in the CCP division.

Actually no, a true 4.25" Commander does not meet the CCP requirements, only a 4" compact does. But if they allowed 4.25" Commanders they'd be stuck with full size (4.25") M&Ps... and so on and so on. Setting an arbitrary barrel length limit is always going to involve trade-offs and leave some people out in the cold.

rob_s
02-03-2015, 09:13 AM
although IDPA is supposed to be about 'competing as you carry', competitors are frequently reported to be observed to arrive and depart the match with a gun radically different from the one they shoot in IDPA competition or no gun at all.

I think this is the problem. People who have never been, would never dare to be seen at, or have any interest in, an IDPA match confusing marketing or a vocal minority with what actually goes on.

Having been one of the people at IDPA matches that are "just there for practice" and "shot the stages tactically" and decried the "gamers" ruining... well... the game, and who now shoots simply for the fun/competition/camaraderie, and who also shoots USPSA, I can tell you that the perception is false.

yes, there are guys that shoot G34s from vests and carry G26s under t-shirts. First, I don't know of any that then talk about "competing as they carry", and second I don't think it's really that much of a departure (although I once thought it was a cardinal sin).

What would be great is if more people would swallow their indignation, realize that it's all just a game, and get out and shoot a few matches and interact with the people they find there, rather than making all sorts of assumptions about the typical IDPA shooter either because:internet or because:intelligentsia. I have seen a few bloggers do this, but they all go with the intent of making IDPA look bad, and they focus on the 10% that are tactical timmies, or wearing multicam, or whatever instead of talking to the quiet accountant father of 2 that shows up every month in his minivan, helps set up, helps tear down, pastes every relay, and consistently shoots middle-of-the-pack Sharpshooter. THAT guy is your actual typical IDPA shooter in my experience.

Mr_White
02-03-2015, 10:30 AM
One M class shooter carries his spare SVI limited gun as his carry gun, he's not willing to make any compromise from his full match level performance.

Props to that guy, that is really cool in my book.

Mr_White
02-03-2015, 10:39 AM
I think this is the problem. People who have never been, would never dare to be seen at, or have any interest in, an IDPA match confusing marketing or a vocal minority with what actually goes on.

Having been one of the people at IDPA matches that are "just there for practice" and "shot the stages tactically" and decried the "gamers" ruining... well... the game, and who now shoots simply for the fun/competition/camaraderie, and who also shoots USPSA, I can tell you that the perception is false.

yes, there are guys that shoot G34s from vests and carry G26s under t-shirts. First, I don't know of any that then talk about "competing as they carry", and second I don't think it's really that much of a departure (although I once thought it was a cardinal sin).

What would be great is if more people would swallow their indignation, realize that it's all just a game, and get out and shoot a few matches and interact with the people they find there, rather than making all sorts of assumptions about the typical IDPA shooter either because:internet or because:intelligentsia. I have seen a few bloggers do this, but they all go with the intent of making IDPA look bad, and they focus on the 10% that are tactical timmies, or wearing multicam, or whatever instead of talking to the quiet accountant father of 2 that shows up every month in his minivan, helps set up, helps tear down, pastes every relay, and consistently shoots middle-of-the-pack Sharpshooter. THAT guy is your actual typical IDPA shooter in my experience.

You kind of lost me here and I'm not sure I follow. Are you basically saying that IDPA isn't about shooting practical gear and practical guns and simulating self-defense scenarios and real life encounters? Maybe I am just not really understanding what you are saying.

Talionis
02-03-2015, 10:57 AM
Actually no, a true 4.25" Commander does not meet the CCP requirements, only a 4" compact does. But if they allowed 4.25" Commanders they'd be stuck with full size (4.25") M&Ps... and so on and so on. Setting an arbitrary barrel length limit is always going to involve trade-offs and leave some people out in the cold.

You are certainly correct. There are, however, quite a few different 4" barreled 1911's which I somewhat imprecisely lumped into that category for the sake of brevity. In point of fact, I haven't seen very many local shooters carry a true 4.25" Commander. I have seen a number that carry 4" bull barrel equivalents.

Talionis
02-03-2015, 11:05 AM
Props to that guy, that is really cool in my book.

Yeah, I think it's awesome! I haven't figured out how to hide a full limited gun with magwell effectively myself. In his case I'm pretty sure it involves a very casual approach to concealment. I've found myself coming around full circle regarding carry/competition. I started out competing with the gun I carried (g19), and I am now moving to carrying the gun I compete with (full size 1911).

rob_s
02-03-2015, 12:38 PM
You kind of lost me here and I'm not sure I follow. Are you basically saying that IDPA isn't about shooting practical gear and practical guns and simulating self-defense scenarios and real life encounters? Maybe I am just not really understanding what you are saying.

of course I lost you. I don't think you were interested in being found.

Instead of trying to figure it out on the internet, why don't you go shoot it?

When I thought I knew what USPSA was about, I went out and shot it instead of going with what the internet told me, and I learned a lot in the process.

rob_s
02-03-2015, 12:39 PM
Yeah, I think it's awesome! I haven't figured out how to hide a full limited gun with magwell effectively myself. In his case I'm pretty sure it involves a very casual approach to concealment. I've found myself coming around full circle regarding carry/competition. I started out competing with the gun I carried (g19), and I am now moving to carrying the gun I compete with (full size 1911).

IIRC there was an IDPA shooter at our club who also bought into this "compete with what you carry" theory that went to a smaller double-stack 9mm 1911 (don't know make, model, or division as it's all outside my interest level) which I believe also had a magwell. Carried it every day the same way he shot the matches, under a vest.

ETA:
I want to say it was something like this. I don't recall the gun ever holding him back at matches.
http://www.stiguns.com/the-sti-tactical-4-0/

Edwin
02-03-2015, 01:17 PM
I compete in IDPA and USPSA with my carry gun (P-35). I know I'm one of the few here in the Seattle area that does that.

Mr_White
02-03-2015, 01:31 PM
of course I lost you. I don't think you were interested in being found.

No, I bolded the part below where I simply don't understand what you are saying:


Having been one of the people at IDPA matches that are "just there for practice" and "shot the stages tactically" and decried the "gamers" ruining... well... the game, and who now shoots simply for the fun/competition/camaraderie, and who also shoots USPSA, I can tell you that the perception is false.

What perception is false? Perception of what?

ToddG
02-03-2015, 03:23 PM
of course I lost you. I don't think you were interested in being found.

Discuss issues and not board members.

If someone asks a question you don't want to answer, don't answer it.


I compete in IDPA and USPSA with my carry gun (P-35). I know I'm one of the few here in the Seattle area that does that.

I shot IDPA Nats that way for many years, including using +p or +p+ ammunition and drawing from a Milt Sparks Executive Companion well behind the hip. But I knew I wasn't in contention to win so it was easy to choose "see how well I can do with my carry setup" over "see if I can win." I certainly cannot fault people who are there to win a game, because and the end of the day that's what it is... a game.

But I cannot deny I have respect for the guys who shoot their EDC gear.

Edwin
02-03-2015, 03:44 PM
In my case it's less about wanting to compete with what I carry and more about I'm so broke, I can't afford to buy a dedicated competition gun. I wouldn't even be competing if I hadn't inherited my P-35.

JonInWA
02-04-2015, 04:58 PM
You could do far worse than run a P-35.

Best, Jon

HopetonBrown
02-04-2015, 07:48 PM
In my case it's less about wanting to compete with what I carry and more about I'm so broke, I can't afford to buy a dedicated competition gun. I wouldn't even be competing if I hadn't inherited my P-35.

Interesting, because you said you voted for carry optics. The average IDPA match I attend has the cheapest gear (Blackhawk, Uncle Mikes, Fobus), and stock sights on many pistols. I don't forsee a large enough contingency of people ponying up $800 to put a red dot on their Glock.

Edwin
02-05-2015, 07:44 PM
Interesting, because you said you voted for carry optics. The average IDPA match I attend has the cheapest gear (Blackhawk, Uncle Mikes, Fobus), and stock sights on many pistols. I don't forsee a large enough contingency of people ponying up $800 to put a red dot on their Glock.

I did vote for it. I can easily see how a compact pistol with a RDS is the future of conceal carry. It's not for everyone because of the price as you pointed out, but like all other technologies, it'll get cheaper eventually. Making a division is a great way of pushing along the concept so everything is ready for mainstream adoption in the future.

HopetonBrown
02-05-2015, 10:02 PM
Making a division is a great way of pushing along the concept so everything is ready for mainstream adoption in the future.

I don't think IDPA sees itself as a test bed or advocate for advances in gear.

But anyway, a lot more people have BUG guns than they do $1200 Glocks; probably a ratio of 10,000 to 1.

Edwin
02-06-2015, 12:08 AM
It isn't, but it could be. That was my point.

Alpha Sierra
02-06-2015, 01:40 AM
When I start my Big Boy Rules shooting sport there will be one division, no classifications, and plenty of pain.
Sounds like the CMP's Excellence In Competition program.

Glenn E. Meyer
03-14-2015, 08:24 PM
I got my Dillon mailer and it had an article by Duane Thomas. He was discussing the new division. His rationale and support was that us poor G19 people were getting whupped by the G34 folks. And yes, he carries a G34 as he has had numerous G19s fall apart on him. And great - you can shoot a 15 round gun with 8 rounds!

It's just baloney, blah, blah - it's a game and not carry realistic. Oh, what an intellectual breakthrough - Glenn!

I also had laugh at the IDPA journal's article on the BUG National. Mentioned that some shot full sized revolvers with special grips but short barrels. They are 'trying' to fix this. I got an idea - if it isn't a J frame, LCR, Colt Detective type or Charter Arms - it isn't a BUG! DUH!

Urban_Redneck
03-16-2015, 06:50 PM
...

I also had laugh at the IDPA journal's article on the BUG National. Mentioned that some shot full sized revolvers with special grips but short barrels. They are 'trying' to fix this. I got an idea - if it isn't a J frame, LCR, Colt Detective type or Charter Arms - it isn't a BUG! DUH!

IDPA ought to just drop the box(es) and go with volume displacement- a graduated container, a plastic bag, and some water.

My $0.02

MGW
03-30-2015, 07:09 AM
Just FYI. The CCP class seems to be up and running. I shot my first IDPA classifier a couple weekends ago. I used a Glock 26. I shot okay focusing on accurate shots and not speed. At least that's my excuse for shooting so slow.

I shot a 140 something which put me in marksman in every class except CCP. That time pushed me to sharpshooter for that class.

I've shot a half dozen indoor matches and one outdoor match so I'm okay with my time and classifications. I shoot IDPA to push myself to practice more and see how that carries over under stress.