Interesting take on speed reloading....

[Al T.]

http://www.youtube.com/SWATmagvids#p/a/u/0/4Vnwg_kRRkM

[KeeFus]

Yea, I've found through practicing and competition that I'm a bit faster doing the reload in the "box" right in front of my face. We have had some SWAT guys come back from regional training and the trainers are still making them hold the gun at arms-length and do a reload or a tac-load. I can't figure it but...

[Al T.]

I agree Kieth. I have fairly small hands and have to twist the G17 in order to hit the magazine release. Much quicker and positive to do so in my work space.

[SecondsCount]

#3

I think common sense says that If you need to reload, it would be best not to be standing in front of the threat.

[Slavex]

if you can't hit a reload standing still, you probably won't be able to do it when getting out of the way. And sometimes, competition or in a gunfight, you may not have the option of moving, walls, doors, targets that still need to be shot etc, can make it so that you do have to just stand there.

[Dagga Boy]

I drive my elbow right back to the same index point I am using for retention shooting, which puts the gun right below my line of sight. I am also a "Fighting stance that is sort of Weaverish" shooter (I know....square range dinosaur who has no idea about the real world), so when I come back to my work space my support hand can easily assist in striping a mag. This is one of those habit things from the days when mags didn't fall free like clockwork every single time without fail. Essentially, I like the higher workspace reload.

I was very thankful that Travis Haley came on the video.......I almost clicked it off when it first started.

[Al T.]

I was very thankful that Travis Haley

LOL - :D

I didn't have an issue with TH's just standing there as it's a video of a single technique. Getting off the X, moving behind cover are all part of the whole Kata. This was a single slice of the pie IMHO.

[ToddG]

if you can't hit a reload standing still, you probably won't be able to do it when getting out of the way.

This.

And if I'd known in was a Panteo Productions video I wouldn't have watched. You know the guy who owns the company is a convicted felon (http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/poughkeepsiejournal/access/1823721391.html?FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&date=Jul+26%2C+2003&author=Larry+Fisher-Hertz&pub=The+Poughkeepsie+Journal&edition=&startpage=B.2&desc=Swindler+gets+probation%2C+must+repay+%24328% 2C000) who ripped off a number of well known folks in the gun industry, right? To borrow a phrase from a friend, "I'd let my kidney burst before I'd piss on him if he was on fire."

[JM Campbell]

Thanks for that info TLG, damn shame too since those vids have a ton of good peeps in them....wonder if they know?

[Al T.]

Todd, did not know that. :eek:

[mc1911]

LOL - :D

I didn't have an issue with TH's just standing there as it's a video of a single technique. Getting off the X, moving behind cover are all part of the whole Kata. This was a single slice of the pie IMHO.

I would think that if you can slap a new mag into your gun in a second or so, that is faster than spending several seconds performing the rest of the Kata.

[beltjones]

This.

And if I'd known in was a Panteo Productions video I wouldn't have watched. You know the guy who owns the company is a convicted felon (http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/poughkeepsiejournal/access/1823721391.html?FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&date=Jul+26%2C+2003&author=Larry+Fisher-Hertz&pub=The+Poughkeepsie+Journal&edition=&startpage=B.2&desc=Swindler+gets+probation%2C+must+repay+%24328% 2C000) who ripped off a number of well known folks in the gun industry, right? To borrow a phrase from a friend, "I'd let my kidney burst before I'd piss on him if he was on fire."

Not only that, but their Portuguese pronunciation makes my ears bleed. Panteeeeee-oh. Good lord.

[dookie1481]

Thanks for that info TLG, damn shame too since those vids have a ton of good peeps in them....wonder if they know?

I brought it up on another forum that many here frequent; my post was deleted and I received a PM saying that A. it wasn't the place to discuss it and B. it was fairly well-known in the industry (not being anywhere close to this industry, I cannot comment on that).

Whether or not the people involved in these videos know? One can only speculate.

[jetfire]

This is the same guy that also used to work for Woolrich on their tactical wear line, and then left the company to found Eotac (now out of business) which made a pant that was apparently shockingly similar to the Woolrich Elite Pant.

(full disclosure: I am homies with the dudes at Woolrich, so there is no love lost for this dude from me either).

[TCinVA]

This is the same guy that also used to work for Woolrich on their tactical wear line, and then left the company to found Eotac (now out of business) which made a pant that was apparently shockingly similar to the Woolrich Elite Pant.

(full disclosure: I am homies with the dudes at Woolrich, so there is no love lost for this dude from me either).

Isn't it funny how people who do business with the guy keep end up coming out on the short end of the stick while he goes off to start some new venture?

Some might even go so far as to say there's a pattern. I certainly wouldn't be in a hurry to hand that fellow my credit card information.

[KeeFus]

Well...shit! Never knew that! Glad I never bought anything from him w/ my CC. I did, however, buy some of the shorts from Eotac (with cash @ Carolina Cup 2 years ago)...don't think I would had I known that...:mad:

Trying to remember if I ever saw him holding a gun...:rolleyes:

[Dagga Boy]

Isn't it funny how people who do business with the guy keep end up coming out on the short end of the stick while he goes off to start some new venture?

Some might even go so far as to say there's a pattern. I certainly wouldn't be in a hurry to hand that fellow my credit card information.

This. It is why I have been the only guy in my "circle" wearing Duluth Trading Co. clothing instead of the stuff Fernando was behind. I have no issues with Travis Haley, and many of the others "used" for the video's. Most are great folks in our little world. When I saw who was introducing a Panteo Video.........yep, I had some vomit in my mouth.

[peterb]

Isn't method #1 the only one that keeps the muzzle pointing at the backstop/berm? Isn't that a consideration, especially at an indoor range?

It'd be helpful to have some guidelines on when & where the "four rules" are typically broken to enable realistic training.

[Al T.]

It'd be helpful to have some guidelines on when & where the "four rules" are typically broken to enable realistic training.

Uh, never. Despite some of the horrendous youtube videos portraying truly stupid gunhandling, breaking the four rules is a great way to hurt yourself or others. Once you ingrain the rules, you will adjust yourself or the firearm so that when you do realistic training you not violate the rules.

[peterb]

Many "good" reload examples I've seen -- including some here -- would sweep the ceiling at an indoor range. A ceiling certainly qualifies as something I don't intend to shoot, and so by the "four rules" I shouldn't be pointing at it.

It seems to me that in the draw stroke, you are briefly pointing at something you don't intend to shoot(the floor), but it's unavoidable without ludicrous contortions. When you reload, you do have the option of keeping the muzzle downrange. But the consensus here seems to be that the technique that points the muzzle up and to the side is preferred for speed and reliability.

Just trying to understand how that balances with good range etiquette.

[jetfire]

Uh, never. Despite some of the horrendous youtube videos portraying truly stupid gunhandling, breaking the four rules is a great way to hurt yourself or others. Once you ingrain the rules, you will adjust yourself or the firearm so that when you do realistic training you not violate the rules.

They're more like guidelines, anyway.

I'll use reloading for example. When I'm practicing reloads at an indoor range, I definitely will point the muzzle at things I don't want to destroy, like the baffles above me when I bring the gun into my "workspace" to reload. I'm not saying it's okay to break the 4 Rules, but there is a certain point where the 4 Rules become guidelines for safe gunhandling and not doctrine that must always be followed. Somewhere in between "shooting for the first time" and "IDPA Ninja" there's a point where you go "oh, I get it now, Jeff Cooper wanted to make people think, not make them blindly follow these rules." That point is a different place for everyone though.

[Dagga Boy]

No, they are rules and not guidelines. People tend to interpret guidelines to fit their own perceived level of competence....which don't often coincide with their actual level of competence. I got in a major issue with my own team when a couple of team leaders started teaching for a school that didn't believe that the safety rules applied to SWAT because of the environment they work in. One third of tactical officers shot in this country are shot by their own people. Those guys lost the fight with me on my range even though they outranked me. They could teach that crap at the school that hired them, but not on their own team.

Shooting things you are not willing to destroy is refering to people. For some people, their work environment may include "things" that should not have firearms pointed at them. I have pointed guns at lots of people that I was more than willing to destroy. I don't point my firearms at people I am not willing to destroy. The only exception is on movie and photo shoots. In that case, the safety protocals are enhanced well past anything you will see on a live range. The key to the safety rules is to truely understand them and to not violate them when working around people. My reload would change dramatically when working a shoot house with a catwalk. The same with confined space presentations and other unusual circumstances.

I have never had an injury due to a negligent discharge on ranges and training I ran because I am totally anal about the "rules". Absolute adherence has saved several lives because of ingrained good habits with my people. This is probably worth its own thread. In regards to this thread-if your reload technique is pointing a muzzle at people, it is your responsibility to alter it based on the circumstances present-period. I have no issues with clarifying the rules with language that is more applicable or detailed to a specific group, I have huge issue with getting away from what we know works.

[jetfire]

The rule doesn't say "Never point a gun at 'anyone' " it says "anything". By interpreting it to only mean "people" you're doing exactly what you said I shouldn't do - interpret them based on my own level of competence. Just saying ;-)

And if they were "hard rules", then I'd never be able to dryfire.

[JAD]

Uh, never. Despite some of the horrendous youtube videos portraying truly stupid gunhandling, breaking the four rules is a great way to hurt yourself or others. Once you ingrain the rules, you will adjust yourself or the firearm so that when you do realistic training you not violate the rules.
Unless it allows you to holster more comfortably.

[SecondsCount]

if you can't hit a reload standing still, you probably won't be able to do it when getting out of the way. And sometimes, competition or in a gunfight, you may not have the option of moving, walls, doors, targets that still need to be shot etc, can make it so that you do have to just stand there.
A valid reason for adding movement to your drills.

My point was that if you are worried about the threat seeing you reload, there are more issues to address.